There is no "proper English"

[TSherbs]

from the Wall Street Journal, but via a columnist of the Times of London: http://www.wsj.com/articles/there-is...ish-1426258286

The argument is, boiled down, that there are no actual firm rules of grammar other than most common usage of the time. The rest is style and/or elitism. I tend to agree.

What do some others think? The column does not take long to read, nor is it a research piece. It is merely an opinion piece.

[Jon Szanto]

Ax me this afternoon.

[dneal]

The author has a point, and I suppose you could say it's simple elitism. I prefer to consider it in terms of what kind of job you want.

[tandaina]

My Grandmother was an English teacher. I do think there is a proper way to speak any language, and while languages *do* evolve that doesn't mean they don't have rules and proper ways of communicating.

[Flounder]

Is it just me... or is the fountain pen pictured in the article lacking a feed?

[Cob]

I disagree 100% with the thrust of that article; if you want the gallery to dictate how English should be used, then rubbish is what you'll get.

Knowameen, innit?

God help us.

Luckily I should be dead before the worst happens.

Cob

[Jon Szanto]

I just keep thinking that there is some indefinable sweet spot, located between "grammar Nazis" and post-modern, relativist, anything-goes bullshit.

Maybe there isn't.

[mhosea]

Meh. It's a strangely egalitarian thing if it's "elitism". It's more about promoting conformity and rewarding those who conform with membership in a supposedly (but not actually) elite group. We try to educate everyone to follow some rules, and most people can follow them if they want to. Many don't want to follow them precisely because they wish to conform to, and to be a recognized member of, a different group. I think the way we react to certain things in language reflects the way we feel about these other groups more than the way we feel about the language per se.

[mhosea]

I will add that my spoken language is not very much like my written language. When you're participating in an on-line discussion, you must decide which way to lean on that score.

[Cob]

from the Wall Street Journal, but via a columnist of the Times of London: [snip]

Harrumph! Bloody Murdoch; what else would one expect?

Cob

[inlovewithjournals]

Ah yes I've had this debate when I worked with a linguist. Editors and linguists often have very different opinions on "proper" English usage; in my experience the linguist says a sentence is successful if the person is understood by another, regardless of whether the sentence follows the accepted rules of English grammar. I say you have a greater chance of being understood by another if we are both following the same set of rules. I accept that language is ever-evolving; that's what makes it so fascinating. But a set of rules is not pedantry; rather, it is a frame for the human experience, whatever language.

Thought-provoking article; thanks for posting TSherbs.

[Morgaine]

Is it just me... or is the fountain pen pictured in the article lacking a feed?

It does look odd. Maybe a fancy dip pen?

[dneal]

I just keep thinking that there is some indefinable sweet spot, located between "grammar Nazis" and post-modern, relativist, anything-goes bullshit.

Maybe there isn't.

Sorry to be pedantic, but it's "maybe there ain't"

Sheesh...

[dneal]

I will add that my spoken language is not very much like my written language. When you're participating in an on-line discussion, you must decide which way to lean on that score.

I know what you mean. I type the Queen's English, but speak Missouri redneck.

[Jon Szanto]

Sorry to be pedantic, but it's "maybe there ain't"

Sheesh...

Get off my lawn.

[jar]

In a recent Fortune article the results of a survey seem to back up the observation that the age group born after 1980 in the US are simply ignorant when it comes to the basics necessary to succeed in life or a job.Even in area where you might expect them to show superior skills that simply fall far behind their age counterparts from the First World nations and even behind older US citizens.

When the results were analyzed by age group and nationality, ETS got a shock. It turns out, says a new report, that Millennials in the U.S. fall short when it comes to the skills employers want most: literacy (including the ability to follow simple instructions), practical math, and — hold on to your hat — a category called “problem-solving in technology-rich environments.”
Not only do Gen Y Americans lag far behind their overseas peers by every measure, but they even score lower than other age groups of Americans.

Sorry but that report certainly matches my personal experience as well.

Fortunately for the US though those skills are not always that important when the job is lawn care, shining shoes, asking if "You want fries with that?" and so many other career paths and there is a near endless supply of youths from other countries to tackle the important jobs.

[Jon Szanto]

Thanks, Jar. I had shared some of that data with others, and if anyone wants an aggregate, here is the story on HuffPost. As I took pains when I shared it before, I'm not into "millenial bashing", but I am definitely concerned not only for the future of the country I live in, but the planet I live on.

And I'm not even going to be here when the shit gets real. Or the chickens come home to roost. Or whatever proper English phrase would best apply.

[Cob]

Thanks, Jar. I had shared some of that data with others, and if anyone wants an aggregate, here is the story on HuffPost. As I took pains when I shared it before, I'm not into "millenial bashing", but I am definitely concerned not only for the future of the country I live in, but the planet I live on.

And I'm not even going to be here when the shit gets real. Or the chickens come home to roost. Or whatever proper English phrase would best apply.

Ahem! Some of THOSE data please!

And the problem is most likely not confined to the USA.

When (Swede) Sven Goran Eriksson was appointed manager of the English Football Team, some wag observed "At last, an England manager who can speak proper English!"

Cob

[cwent2]

My son recently was speaking to a new High School Graduate - She did not realize that Hawaii was an island or a state!

A sad state of intellectuals the schools are turning out.

[Jon Szanto]

Ahem! Some of THOSE data please!

Taken under advisement, with thanks.

ETA: I took this temporarily, for the reason that the term "data", as is in use within the last half-century, is still evolving due to the rapid changes in technology and the deliver and manipulation of information. I had no way of knowing how far I might have stepped over a line, but this very linguistic problem - "those" vs "this" data is unclear as to a set answer. I noted many sources that refused to come down on one side or the other, and even found one discussion of the problem that was 15 pages long.

So: I don't propose that my initial usage was correct, nor do I concede that it was incorrect. I'll just play dumb.