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Thread: The US 2nd Amendment.....

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    Senior Member jar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    There is a procedure to amend the Constitution in the US and a simple referendum simply won't cut it.

    The actual wording of Article V is: “The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.”
    But that is just the first and easiest step. Once to get the Federal Legislature to agree on an Amendment and then get two-thirds of the State Legislatures to ratify the Amendment (or go the route of calling a Constitutional Convention which has so far not been done since the current US Constitution was first ratified) there is the issue of enforcing whatever was decided.

    Implementation would also need to comply with the 4th Amendment which says:

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seize.
    One thing we really need to consider is where to place our efforts; would it be more efficient to address those issues that might lead to violence like education, health care, income inequality, mental health services and other areas that seem to get addressed in most First Nation societies but totally neglected in the US.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    This - NEWS ARTICLE - arrived in our email inboxes this afternoon. As you can imagine, a lot of people are somewhat concerned, me included.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    This - NEWS ARTICLE - arrived in our email inboxes this afternoon. As you can imagine, a lot of people are somewhat concerned, me included.
    At least with prior warning the chances of there being an incident are unlikely.

    Regards
    Hugh

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    One thing we really need to consider is where to place our efforts; would it be more efficient to address those issues that might lead to violence like education, health care, income inequality, mental health services and other areas that seem to get addressed in most First Nation societies but totally neglected in the US.
    I have no doubt trying to identify the "problems" and best methods to address them would give long term benefits. Dneal earlier raised medical issues as possibly being a contributing factor, at the moment lead is being looked at as a possible cause for violence (http://www.motherjones.com/environme...-link-gasoline) and I found the article linked to very interesting ( it seems to fall into the reputable category) and pretty scary as well. Could it really be such a massive problem?

    The lead theory is also interesting in that it may be a possible contributor to the results that Lott sees just with a different conclusion ( well it has to be aired...). Mass shootings seems to defy the trend and be increasing in the US, if lead was a contributor to these then the opposite should occur in general so it appears other factors at play ( ??? ).

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    I like how the Australians are trying to tell us what to do.

    The British tried to tell us what to do.

    We shot them.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Quote Originally Posted by TheInkluminati View Post
    I like how the Australians are trying to tell us what to do.

    The British tried to tell us what to do.

    We shot them.
    Great to see some really constructive input ....from someone who clearly can't read or comprehend...Jar is American...agreeing with him is clearly agreeing with an American....Dneal is American....quoting him is quoting an American....Mother Jones is...amazingly...American !! ..................???...............

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    .....did I mention the statistics are...American...

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    I want banana chocolate pudding.

    -d
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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Quote Originally Posted by HughC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TheInkluminati View Post
    I like how the Australians are trying to tell us what to do.

    The British tried to tell us what to do.

    We shot them.
    Great to see some really constructive input ....from someone who clearly can't read or comprehend...Jar is American...agreeing with him is clearly agreeing with an American....Dneal is American....quoting him is quoting an American....Mother Jones is...amazingly...American !! ..................???...............
    Well, whether Texas and other territories that the US took by conquest like Florida and Hawaii and California and Arizona and New Mexico really are or should remain as conquered territories is certainly subject to question.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    There are three abilities that have to be in place for gun control to work: Omniscience,Omnipotence and Omnipresence.


    John

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant . . . Over himself, over his body and mind, the individual is sovereign.

    The maxims are, first, that the individual is not accountable to society for his actions, in so far as these concern the interests of no person but himself. Advice, instruction, persuasion, and avoidance by other people if thought necessary by them for their own good, are the only measures by which society can justifiably express its dislike or disapprobation of his conduct. Secondly, that for such actions as are prejudicial to the interests of others, the individual is accountable, and may be subjected either to social or to legal punishment, if society is of opinion that the one or the other is requisite for its protection.


    Word from JS Mills, emphasis mine.



    Well, we had an interesting Wednesday. University almost deserted because someone made an online claim to carry out a gun attack on that day. Message was on 4Chan apparently. Police and high-tec crime unit are following it up. Police presence still visible today (thursday). There was also a bomb threat and evacuation at another university here, and a further shooting threat at a third university. Not fun.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    To take this off on a tangent for a minute, I heard on BBC World the other day that twice as many people die each year from car exhaust emissions than die in car crashes. Further, my understanding is that more people die in car crashes each year than die in mass shootings. Finally, a good number of mass shootings are perpetrated by an offender with a mental illness.

    For the sake of the argument, let's say it would cost $50b for the government to buy-back whatever classes of guns are deemed to be unacceptable. E.g. Centre-fire SLR’s and hand guns.

    Now, if the aim is to save lives I think it’s fair to say that $50b would have a greater affect if it was spent between mental health services and creating/enforcing better regulation of the auto industry (and I’m sure a bunch of other issues, e.g. obesity, cancer research, heart disease, etc).

    So, if all of that is even remotely correct, why are the media and parts of the government continually banging on about gun control when there are much bigger problems to solve?

    My only conclusions are that it gives:
    - the media plenty of fodder to sell advertising into,
    - a way to distract the population for a government mired in problems, and
    - a point of (artificial) difference between the Republicans and the Democrats.

    Basically, it’s all a scam.

    Now for some banana chocolate pudding.
    In your face obesity!

    Cheers
    Noel
    Last edited by duckmcf; October 7th, 2015 at 05:22 PM.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    History has a funny way of making the seemingly simple become very complex.

    The Second Amendment is very "radical" by today's standards in its original intent and drafting, if you consider the context of its times. The purpose was to protect the States and the American populace at large not from criminals, but from the then-new United States Government. At the time, one of the hallmarks of "British Tyranny" in the period leading up to 1776 was the affinity for the British government and its troops to seize stores of arms, powder and shot from the colonials. They actually performed several such seizures prior to the fateful April morning at Lexington.

    In the course of ratifying the Constitution, many critics charged that the new government would become like the British government in its measures, eventually seizing arms, powder and shot using a standing army to subjugate the states and the populace at large. The Second Amendment was a way of assuaging critics and winning over the more moderate "anti-Federalist" vote (in fact the Bill of Rights in full was a post-convention means of assuaging this segment). These critics wanted some way of protecting the States and the people at large from the sorts of things the British had practiced before the Revolution. However, the Second Amendment solely bound the U.S. Government. It had no effect on the power of a state government. We see this in many state constitutions that have their own "Right to Bear Arms" provisions. We do see some discussion of a general right to keep and bear arms in the Federalist Papers, and Madison appeals to that right as the final defense of the people against the Federal Government's potential tyranny in the pre-Revolution British mold. The fact that the framers of the Amendment wanted to phrase this in an affirmative light, then somewhat explains the peculiar wording of the amendment. One would not put notions of potential "tyranny" into the new constitution for the very same government (incendiary and self-destructive in any constitution), so they instead chose to emphasize the positive value of the militia (which comprised both state forces and local minute/militia companies in the period).

    This has all become quite clouded over the course of our history through changes in both situation and interpretation of the Constitution. Many of the provisions of the Bill of Rights were gradually "incorporated", that is to say, made binding on the states. This was not the case at the time of the Second Amendment. Only recently did the Supreme Court decide it generally applied to both the federal enclave in D.C. and the states overall. But then many state constitutions protected the ownership of arms prior to that, because "incorporation" was not envisioned by the framers of the Constitution. There was almost always a right to keep and bear arms at the state level, at least in most places, but it was the federal-level right that became the new thing in recent years.
    Last edited by Ray-VIgo; October 20th, 2015 at 08:33 AM.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    I agree with the above post. The context of the Second Amendment was more about States granted the ability (i.e., armed militia) to protect themselves against Federal government's potential tyranny. Of course, the States sovereign rights got thoroughly subordinated to Federal mandates after the Civil War, rendering the context of the Second Amendment moot.

    That being said, being of libertarian bent, I am generally against any laws that limit or deprive any individual of their rights. In my opinion, the fundamental source of the tragic mass shootings (that brings about these heated discussions on gun control) is not guns or even people with guns. To put it flippantly, it's crazy people with guns. The mental illness issue is the elephant in the room that no one is willing to talk about. Every single one of these tragic mass shootings have been committed by mentally ill people.

    Taking guns away will not eliminate mass "violence" issue. I may will be accused of cherry picking but let's look at China with its gun laws - that is, no guns are allowed, period. So instead of mass shooting like in America, China has mass stabbings where mentally ill people go around indiscriminately stabbing innocent people including children with knives.

    The real issue is mental illness. No one including gun owners will disagree that mentally ill person should be allowed or have access to firearms. Unfortunately, such common sense laws are being blocked by NRA as infringement on our Second Amendment rights. It's unfortunate that so many of gun owners fail to see that NRA is nothing more than lobbyist for the firearms industry and do not have the best interest of gun owners in its mercenary heart.

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    Cool

    @jar

    Hey, jar, did you hear? Tactile Turn makes fountain pens now. I guess that makes it a real pen company just like Karas Kustom in your mind, huh?

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    The mental illness issue is the elephant in the room that no one is willing to talk about. Every single one of these tragic mass shootings have been committed by mentally ill people.
    True that. Unfortunately, mental illness is also one of the most under-reported conditions. You cannot treat someone for mental illness if the condition goes unrecognised, undiagnosed or unreported. I suppose that in considering risk factors that lend themselves to change, the idea of removing the guns may be seen as the easiest and most cost effective to implement, comparatively speaking of course.

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    Senior Member jar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Quote Originally Posted by RNHC View Post
    @jar

    Hey, jar, did you hear? Tactile Turn makes fountain pens now. I guess that makes it a real pen company just like Karas Kustom in your mind, huh?
    Just like Karas Custom. Sure.

    But I never said they were not, only that they did not offer real pens but only ballpoints and rollerballs.
    Last edited by jar; October 22nd, 2015 at 04:19 PM.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    You cannot treat someone for mental illness if the condition goes unrecognised, undiagnosed or unreported. I suppose that in considering risk factors that lend themselves to change, the idea of removing the guns may be seen as the easiest and most cost effective to implement, comparatively speaking of course.
    I hear you. I don't know why the liberals think that removing guns is the easiest and the most cost effective solution. The gun culture is a tradition that is entrenched in large parts of USA. And I don't know why the conservatives are so opposed to common sense gun control measures (or so NRA would make us believe). Speaking from experience, it is too darn easy to get a gun. Getting a driver's license was far more difficult.

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    Senior Member jar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Quote Originally Posted by RNHC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    You cannot treat someone for mental illness if the condition goes unrecognised, undiagnosed or unreported. I suppose that in considering risk factors that lend themselves to change, the idea of removing the guns may be seen as the easiest and most cost effective to implement, comparatively speaking of course.
    I hear you. I don't know why the liberals think that removing guns is the easiest and the most cost effective solution. The gun culture is a tradition that is entrenched in large parts of USA. And I don't know why the conservatives are so opposed to common sense gun control measures (or so NRA would make us believe). Speaking from experience, it is too darn easy to get a gun. Getting a driver's license was far more difficult.
    One problem is that today there is simply no way to do a real background check to determine if someone should be sold a firearm. We simply have no real method in the US of checking someones identity or history and until we develop a national registry we cannot have a method to check up on such things.

    We cannot even check to see if someone really is a citizen in many cases.

    So the first step needs to be some form of universal registry, a definitive and difficult to fake id card and that id card must be tied to every facet of a persons live, health care, education, criminal record, psychological profiles, known addresses ...

    Then that id must be tied to individual firearms as well.

    That would do little for any guns currently held by individuals but could be functional on all new acquisitions.

    A hefty fine for use of an unregistered firearm will help move those currently unregistered into the registry.

    Such a registry would have value beyond just firearms by directing attention to individuals who need help.

    But there is so much more needed particularly in the US.

    We need to move away from the idea that health care should be a for-profit endeavor. The same thing for education. We need to explore how a supposedly civilized nation can still have a society where parents can beat kids to death in the name of religion; deny vaccination in the name of parental rights, why there is road rage, why there are still people who consider their religion to be the ONLY RIGHT religion.

    Gun violence is simply a symptom not the problem.

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    Default Re: The US 2nd Amendment.....

    Gentlemen,

    On an admittedly personal note:

    Most home invaders are male and the average male has 75-100 pounds on me and 17-23% more muscle fibers per ounce of muscle. That makes his uninvited presence in my home a lethal threat to me even if he is unarmed.

    But he may not want to hurt me. He may want to hurt my beautiful 9 yr old boy. Or a predator who now legally has access to the womens' restroom may come at us there. In these scenarios I will be on my own and I will do whatever it takes to protect that child and myself. In my case that includes a legally held and frequently drilled S&W. 9mm.

    As far as the case of militias go, let's talk about the little pockets of islamicized areas pitting the face of the country. We may be grateful for those militias if things go the way they are in Europe. No one likes a warrior until the enemy is at the gates.

    So many are squeamish about firearms. Of course I don't advocate their possession by the mentally ill but until we can effectively screen for those people, I don't want to give up my ability to protect myself because someone didn't get his head meds that day, swiped his brother's rifle and went looking for trouble.

    What do y'all unarmed folks do in those scenarios above? How do you protect your women and your children?

    And yes, my Daddy's from Texas.
    Last edited by VertOlive; May 4th, 2016 at 02:03 PM.
    "Nolo esse salus sine vobis ...” —St. Augustine

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