What is up with FPN?

[david i]

Wim,

If you're still here, you deserve credit for posting to a thread that is harshly critical of FPN. Your willingness to reconsider the bans imposed on some users shows character. Would you consider a general amnesty for those who are banned, including Hugh and David (who apparently banned themselves in a sort of "you're fired / I quit" exchange)? I know not everyone would accept an amnesty offer, but that's not the point. Such a gesture would go a long way toward setting things right.

I have struggled with the idea of removing my photos from all FPN threads, which would be easy because I self-host the pics on my own server. Many of my photos show the steps I took in repairing pens, particularly Vac-Fils and Snorkels. And luminaries such as Binder, Zorn, and Nishimura weighed in with advice and criticism.

This poses a dilemma for me because I want to show solidarity with my banned buddies, but removing photos that will render these repair discussions useless is an extreme action. Harming people to make a point is a bad idea in this case. Thus I have decided the photos will remain. But it was a tough call. Now it's your turn.

Sincerely,
AshBridg

Hi,

Your post shows courtesy and decency. Good things no doubt.

But, Wim had no choice but to post, no more choice than a moth has when flying to the flame. Wim's wishes regarding me are irrelevant, and perhaps so too for Hugh, though I would not presume to speak for Hugh.

I was an active member at FPN when I made my stab at showing FPN the error of its ways. The firmly applied internet (metaphorical) smack in the chops I know-- based on inside info-- caused great consternation, as it was meant to do. In fact, you should know that self-hosted photos offer greater possibilities than simple removal.

Ron Zorn is an old friend. I have about zero skills as a pen restorer (which is why in real life I am an Internist not a Surgeon), but I have the honor to be both the first person besides Ron to have a pen restored by Ron and to be the fellow who suggested to him 10 years ago, over dinner at his house, that he might consider fixing pens for other folks and might consider setting up shop at a pen show. Who knew...??? Time flies. Now my pen bud is arestorer of world renown. I've had the pleasure to see his skill set skyrocket due to his inventiveness and skill.

That you worry about the things you worry about returns me to my core points, that FPN is not a fun place and that pen boards are supposed to be for our fun. Your repair work easily could be featured on other boards such as FPG or my own FPB. It would be welcomed. Yeah, our member volume isn't quite FPN's, but I also note that one often has chance to make greater impact in start up companies than in the big monopoly

Obviously, do what works for you. I'm sure though your work will meet appreciation wherever you choose to offer it.

regards

david

[HughC]

....funding is way below what is need to keep it running, with 2 members paying for well over half of the running costs the last two years, and probably a 100 or so for the rest, with some income from inks and pens. This situation is no longer tenable, especially not as one of the above mentioned two persons is not able to support FPN financially anymore.

Regards, Wim

So is it Conway Stewart of someone associated with the company that's no longer able to "donate" ? It's been clear that CS gained preferential treatment especially in the ludicrous ( and extremely disappointing) way the CS Forum operated. If one is indeed CS that's unable to contribute then perhaps you should have read what I wrote about the future prospects for that company some time ago with more care ( especially given a rather dubious use of the UK's pre pack administration laws that allowed the company accountant to purchase CS for a fraction of it's worth that left creditors with...not much).

Regards
Hugh

[whych]

I have struggled with the idea of removing my photos from all FPN threads, which would be easy because I self-host the pics on my own server. Many of my photos show the steps I took in repairing pens, particularly Vac-Fils and Snorkels. And luminaries such as Binder, Zorn, and Nishimura weighed in with advice and criticism.

Great decision. I agree with your sentiments.
In the spirit of helping others who have perhaps helped you, it's perhaps posting such items on a public board way of giving something back to the community. In any case, generally, the product was repaired generally as a result of collaboration with others who contributed.

As far as any posts, pictures, etc. I post on a public forum, I am happy for them to be used as long as I am given credit and I am sure you feel the same.
If the public forum were to continue using content after removing any credit or reference to the author/creator, I feel the creator would be justified in kicking up a fuss and taking things further.

[Jimmy James]

I would hope that instead of some offer of blanket amnesty, wimg might be willing to reconsider any bans on a case by case basis. Dr. I has made it clear he doesn't want to come back, but I could imagine somebody in his place accepting an invitation out of spite just to cause mayhem until banned again (I stress I don't think Dr. I would do that at all). These things happen on forums. I've moderated some interesting ones in my day.

I think anybody who posts anything on the Internet needs to know once it is posted, it is no longer under control. Even things I have said in anger and deleted within seconds have sometimes been captured for eternity. You really shouldn't expect that things you do not retain control of like your words posted into somebody else's database or your photos not hosted by you will never be retracted fully. Further, I don't think it's a great idea for a forum to remove content that was made during the time there was an agreement between the user and the forum to have an interaction. I've seen such things carried out, and it renders the words of others out of context and distorted with sometimes humorous but other times tragic type results. If I punch Eric right in the mouth because he bought the last of an Edison LE I wanted, that shouldn't mean when I quit FPG forums that this post goes away.

[david i]

I would hope that instead of some offer of blanket amnesty, wimg might be willing to reconsider any bans on a case by case basis. Dr. I has made it clear he doesn't want to come back, but I could imagine somebody in his place accepting an invitation out of spite just to cause mayhem until banned again (I stress I don't think Dr. I would do that at all). These things happen on forums. I've moderated some interesting ones in my day.

Hey, Even I am amenable to creative suggestions

I think anybody who posts anything on the Internet needs to know once it is posted, it is no longer under control. Even things I have said in anger and deleted within seconds have sometimes been captured for eternity. You really shouldn't expect that things you do not retain control of like your words posted into somebody else's database or your photos not hosted by you will never be retracted fully. Further, I don't think it's a great idea for a forum to remove content that was made during the time there was an agreement between the user and the forum to have an interaction. I've seen such things carried out, and it renders the words of others out of context and distorted with sometimes humorous but other times tragic type results. If I punch Eric right in the mouth because he bought the last of an Edison LE I wanted, that shouldn't mean when I quit FPG forums that this post goes away.

Yet, I gave FPN Admins a major seizure when I showed that control sometimes can be surprising...

regards

david

[Jimmy James]

You did indeed, but that's because you were hosting the things yourself. If you had them up on certain sharing sites, you'd be out of luck and they'd be there. Even now, it is conceivable that Wim or Dan or whoever runs Pentrace has complete copies of your images and is just itching to post them the moment they're beyond the statutory periods of intellectual property protection.

[david i]

You did indeed, but that's because you were hosting the things yourself. If you had them up on certain sharing sites, you'd be out of luck and they'd be there. Even now, it is conceivable that Wim or Dan or whoever runs Pentrace has complete copies of your images and is just itching to post them the moment they're beyond the statutory periods of intellectual property protection.

A theoretical issue (which wouldn't bother me, what with the threads being years old) which in practice is not a concern. They'd have had to drag and copy those picture in original real time (which they didn't, as supported by the terrible brouhaha that was stirred up backchannel there).

But, I agree, the internet can keep things... interesting.

regards

david

[HughC]

Wim,

If you're still here, you deserve credit for posting to a thread that is harshly critical of FPN. Your willingness to reconsider the bans imposed on some users shows character. Would you consider a general amnesty for those who are banned, including Hugh and David (who apparently banned themselves in a sort of "you're fired / I quit" exchange)? I know not everyone would accept an amnesty offer, but that's not the point. Such a gesture would go a long way toward setting things right.

I have struggled with the idea of removing my photos from all FPN threads, which would be easy because I self-host the pics on my own server. Many of my photos show the steps I took in repairing pens, particularly Vac-Fils and Snorkels. And luminaries such as Binder, Zorn, and Nishimura weighed in with advice and criticism.

This poses a dilemma for me because I want to show solidarity with my banned buddies, but removing photos that will render these repair discussions useless is an extreme action. Harming people to make a point is a bad idea in this case. Thus I have decided the photos will remain. But it was a tough call. Now it's your turn.

Sincerely,
AshBridg

Hi Ash,

My thoughts echo to a degree those of David's. As far as the FPN goes I think I've "burnt the bridge" , still putting the past to rest and moving on has merit. You've been a great contributor to the FPN and I appreciate your support but see no reason why you shouldn't continue to use and enjoy FPN while it meets your requirements.

Regards
Hugh

[radaddict]

The vast majority of folks don't use fountain pens. In fact, the use of pens in general is likely decreasing with the rise of smart phones and iPads.

While widely quoted as truth, I don't believe that it is the case. In my entire life, there have never been more places to buy writing instruments of all kinds than there are now, nor has the range of papers, pens, pencils, rollerballs, inks, cartridges, greetings cards, etc, available ever been so great. Just go look in a branch of Office World or Staples.

Someone must be buying all that stuff.

Well, I don't agree with what you say, but I will defend, to the death, your right to say it! Well, maybe not to the death ;-).

Perhaps I should have spoken in percentages. With an increasing human population (or perhaps a refinement to an increasing human affluent population) one can expect greater sales of everything. BTW, I hope you are correct. Personal handwritten communication requires thought and reflection. Electronic communication quite frequently lacks those qualities.

[kaisnowbird]

Is there any other solution?? Yes. Don't worry about it and have fun! YMMV.

Let's have a bit of a reality check here and I'm happy for anyone to disagree with me. We're not discussing trade secrets here or anything that could affect the balance of power in the free world as we know it. We're discussing fountain pens and fountain pen stuff. I submit to you that if all fountain pen forums were to suddenly shut down or even if all fountain pens were to disappear from the planet in some bizarre fountain pen rapture, nothing of import would change; life would carry on as usual. The vast majority of folks don't use fountain pens. In fact, the use of pens in general is likely decreasing with the rise of smart phones and iPads.

These forums provide a great place for discussion, but none of what is discussed here or at FPN is secret knowledge. Yes, some folks have more knowledge and experience than others (and it's awesome that they so freely share), but you can build that knowledge outside of these forums - you can go to pen shows or your local library etc. etc. etc.

So, post your opinions and questions etc. and don't worry about your content. Life's too short. Have fun!

Hi radaddict

I agree with you to the extent that at some point we'll all have to let it go, as a conscious decision or being forced to when our journeys end at various points. However, while those journeys are still continuing, I wouldn't ask anyone other than myself to let go of their entitlement so freely. The knowledge imparted regarding fountain pens, though not often 'secrets', is no less valuable; the generosity of those who freely share their knowledge should all the more be respected and duly appreciated, not taken advantage of.

To play devil's advocate - a few of us leave this world today, some may say that nothing of import would change in this 6-7 billion civilization of ours.

As I see it, certain knowledge and insight shared in a forum is still intellectual property of that author. Today, he (or she) may graciously grant a licence to us all to use it, to benefit and learn from it. Tomorrow, for any reasons he deems fit, he should be able to revoke that licence, so it cannot be exploited by entities he no longer feel is worthy. Those of us who had the good fortune to learn from him and turned that knowledge into our own can use that knowledge to help others, which would become the legacy of his kindness.

Just my two cents worth. All the best.

[radaddict]

Is there any other solution?? Yes. Don't worry about it and have fun! YMMV.

Let's have a bit of a reality check here and I'm happy for anyone to disagree with me. We're not discussing trade secrets here or anything that could affect the balance of power in the free world as we know it. We're discussing fountain pens and fountain pen stuff. I submit to you that if all fountain pen forums were to suddenly shut down or even if all fountain pens were to disappear from the planet in some bizarre fountain pen rapture, nothing of import would change; life would carry on as usual. The vast majority of folks don't use fountain pens. In fact, the use of pens in general is likely decreasing with the rise of smart phones and iPads.

These forums provide a great place for discussion, but none of what is discussed here or at FPN is secret knowledge. Yes, some folks have more knowledge and experience than others (and it's awesome that they so freely share), but you can build that knowledge outside of these forums - you can go to pen shows or your local library etc. etc. etc.

So, post your opinions and questions etc. and don't worry about your content. Life's too short. Have fun!

Hi radaddict

I agree with you to the extent that at some point we'll all have to let it go, as a conscious decision or being forced to when our journeys end at various points. However, while those journeys are still continuing, I wouldn't ask anyone other than myself to let go of their entitlement so freely. The knowledge imparted regarding fountain pens, though not often 'secrets', is no less valuable; the generosity of those who freely share their knowledge should all the more be respected and duly appreciated, not taken advantage of.

To play devil's advocate - a few of us leave this world today, some may say that nothing of import would change in this 6-7 billion civilization of ours.

As I see it, certain knowledge and insight shared in a forum is still intellectual property of that author. Today, he (or she) may graciously grant a licence to us all to use it, to benefit and learn from it. Tomorrow, for any reasons he deems fit, he should be able to revoke that licence, so it cannot be exploited by entities he no longer feel is worthy. Those of us who had the good fortune to learn from him and turned that knowledge into our own can use that knowledge to help others, which would become the legacy of his kindness.

Just my two cents worth. All the best.

I think we're pretty much on the same page. However, keeping control of information posted in a public forum, and is therefore public, is difficult at best. Even if the poster has the ability to delete their post, half a bazillion people could have already downloaded that post and then posted it to other forums. Once it's out there, all control is lost. Of course in the case of copyrighted or patented information, there may be legal recourse. However, even that would be a challenge requiring considerable legal resources. Once it's out there, it's out there.

[Marsilius]

I will pipe in probably this once more on this topic, which was timed perfectly for me. I picked a great week to be stuck at home recuperating from a minor surgery! It has been fascinating and refreshing to read all the passionate posts here. I tend not to post out of caution, but a little time and some meds loosened my tongue a bit. I thought I would raise two points:

1. Where I work there is a constant tension between a staff that feels overworked and under appreciated on the one hand, and a faculty on the other that feels exactly the same (sound familiar everyone in academia?)
It just so happens that the staff likes to make "conservative" rules that make things run smoother for the operation of things, rules that the faculty sometimes see as hindrances to doing their job "liberally" (words in quotes are my own projections).
It is hard for either side to appreciate the viewpoint of the other, and some of the posts I have read on either side of the FPN Admin vs. FPN "malcontents" have resonated in a similar fashion. I have read some of the same words from FPN Admin that I hear from staff, and have other voices that sound like a faculty response. I am firmly ensconced in that "liberal" camp, and love how much freedom of speech is tolerated here and on FPB, always wished for more of that at FPN, and was really distressed by the last episode of asking their opinions, then calling them whiners and banning them. I of course know they work very hard, and try to see that side. At my work, I have learned that face to face talks solve many feathers ruffled over email, but in some cases, attitudes just get hardened.

2. I think there might be some cross-cultural issues about "good-old American freedom of speech" and some European attitudes that feel there is another kind of balance. Boy, have I bumped into that numerous times living in The Netherlands and Belgium. I am not sure that comes into play, but have my suspicions that there is another very subtle cultural issue there sometimes.

3. A group or committee can take on a character that its individual members don't necessarily have alone. Discuss at will.

I should erase this before posting, but will close repeating a final thought. I have really appreciated FPN, and also have gotten horribly upset by the censor thing every time it arose. I really enjoy FPG and FPB, and believe this episode has proven their worth and enhanced both communities. The words may have gotten heated or more personal than some like, but it has been refreshing and exciting. As I go back to work (and stop posting off the cuff!), I will continue reading here and at FPB (and hopefully at FPN) with pleasure, as always.
Hope I didn't say too much! Good night all!
Mars

[tenney]

If you had them up on certain sharing sites, you'd be out of luck and they'd be there. Even now, it is conceivable that Wim or Dan or whoever runs Pentrace has complete copies of your images and is just itching to post them the moment they're beyond the statutory periods of intellectual property protection.

Around the world, once you've posted some writings or photographs online it is YOU who own the copyright (unless you've legally signed that away) to it for many years beyond your death. And YOU can tell any website that you withdraw any implied right to continue to publish your content. And, in the USA (and being pushed via international treaties, maybe in many other countries), you can send a DMCA notice and takedown request for them to remove your copyrighted materials too.

[aschup]

mcy1TZq.jpg

[Daniel]

"good-old American freedom of speech"
Mars

There you are. Still waiting for the arrival of John Wayne over here.

[david i]

mcy1TZq.jpg

Verily, was ever there any better evidence about legend? When one is so well known to one he doesn't know, one who never has posted before, one who invests so... much... energy addressing him... ... ... one indeed has achieved more than he could imagine on his best day....

We'll see you at FPB, I'm sure. Charming

[HughC]

mcy1TZq.jpg

Actually if you bother to read the entire topic those banned say very little about it and generally only clarify points raised by others.

[david i]

Actually if you bother to read the entire topic those banned say very little about it and generally only clarify points raised by others.

This really has been a helluva thread. I'm fairly jaded regarding internet pen chat, what with having seen so very much of it over the years, but this one rather rocks...

Meanwhile FPN still is down. I will be curious to see if the relative flood of registrations at FPG and FPB will result in regular activity by the new members who presumably are happy for the moment to see any pen board online, or if involvement is transient.

regards

-d

[HughC]

Actually if you bother to read the entire topic those banned say very little about it and generally only clarify points raised by others.

This really has been a helluva thread. I'm fairly jaded regarding internet pen chat, what with having seen so very much of it over the years, but this one rather rocks...

Meanwhile FPN still is down. I will be curious to see if the relative flood of registrations at FPG and FPB will result in regular activity by the new members who presumably are happy for the moment to see any pen board online, or if involvement is transient.

regards

-d

Rocks !! Sure does...

Hugh

[Sailor Kenshin]

Howcum we see posters who have posted at least once but with a post count of zero?