What is up with FPN?

[david i]

I have not done hard research on the following, but a quick search yields numbers (which seem a bit high to me) on one of the largest genocides last century ( a rather protracted thing), by one of the most non-religious indeed anti religious gov'ts in recent history.

Remember, people hate people. People covet resources. People try to secure power. Usually it is bigots who try to blame religion...

---------------

"How long will you keep killing people?" asked Lady Astor of Stalin in 1931. Replied Stalin, "the process would continue as long as was necessary" to establish a communist society.

Probably 61,911,000 people, 54,769,000 of them citizens, have been murdered by the Communist Party--the government--of the Soviet Union. This is about 178 people for each letter, comma, period, digit, and other characters in this book. Old and young, healthy and sick, men and women, and even infants and infirm, were killed in cold-blood. They were not combatants in civil war or rebellions, they were not criminals. Indeed, nearly all were guilty of ... nothing.

Some were from the wrong class--bourgeoisie, land owners, aristocrats, kulaks. Some were from the wrong nation or race-- Ukrainians, Black Sea Greeks, Kalmyks, Volga Germans. Some were from the wrong political faction--Trotskyites, Mensheviks, Social Revolutionaries. Or some were just their sons and daughters, wives and husbands, or mothers and fathers. And some were those occupied by the Red Army--Balts, Germans, Poles, Hungarians, Rumanians. Then some were simply in the way of social progress, like the mass of peasants or religious believers. Or some were eliminated because of their potential opposition, such as writers, teachers, churchmen; or the military high command; or even high and low Communist Party members themselves.

In fact, we have witnessed in the Soviet Union a true egalitarian social cleansing and flushing: no group or class escaped, for everyone and anyone could have had counter-revolutionary ancestors, class lineage, counter-revolutionary ideas or thought, or be susceptible to them. And thus, almost anyone was arrested, interrogated, tortured, and after a forced confession of a plot to blow up the Kremlin, or some such, shot or sentenced to the dry guillotine--slow death by exposure, malnutrition, and overwork in a forced labor camp.

Part of this mass killing was genocide, as in the wholesale murder of hundreds of thousands of Don Cossacks in 1919,1 the intentional starving of about 5,000,000 Ukrainian peasants to death in 1932-33,2 or the deportation to mass death of 50,000 to 60,000 Estonians in 1949.3 Part was mass murder, as of the wholesale extermination of perhaps 6,500,000 "kulaks" (in effect, the better off peasants and those resisting collectivization) from 1930 to 1937,4 the execution of perhaps a million Party members in the Great Terror of 1937-38,5 and the massacre of all Trotskyites in the forced labor camps.6

And part of the killing was so random and idiosyncratic that journalists and social scientists have no concept for it, as in hundreds of thousands of people being executed according to preset, government, quotas. Says Vladimir Petrov (who in 1954 defected while a spy-chief in Australia and whose credibility and subsequent revelations were verified by a Royal--Australian-- Commission on Espionage7) about his work during the years 1936 to 1938.

--------------------------------

[david i]

Always it is interesting to watch the simplistic branch of the anti-religion crowd bleat claims of "religions caused most deaths".

Color, not religion...

"Haiti
The Haitian revolution also caused the mass killings of white Haitians.

Jean-Jacques Dessalines, the first ruler of an independent Haiti, ordered the killing of the remaining white population of French creoles on Haiti by the 1804 Haiti Massacre. According to Philippe Girard, "when the genocide was over, Haiti's white population was virtually non-existent."[44]"

Race, not religion

"Mexico

The Caste War of Yucatán (approx. 1847–1901) against the population of European descent, called Yucatecos, who held political and economic control of the region. Adam Jones wrote: "This ferocious race war featured genocidal atrocities on both sides, with up to 200,000 killed."[45]

James L. Haley wrote: "In 1835 Don Ignacio Zuniga, who was the long-time commander of the presidios of northern Sonora, asserted that since 1820 the Apaches had killed at least five thousand settlers ... The state of Sonora resorted to paying a bounty on Apache scalps in 1835. Beginning in 1837 Chihuahua state also offered bounty, 100 pesos per warrior, 50 pesos per woman, and 25 pesos per child, nothing more or less than genocide."[46]"

Oh yeah, anti-religious Communist China

"Mao Ze-Dong (China, 1958-61 and 1966-69, Tibet 1949-50) 49-78,000,000"

Just sayin'...

regards

david

[fountainpenkid]

I have not done hard research on the following, but a quick search yields numbers (which seem a bit high to me) on one of the largest genocides last century ( a rather protracted thing), but one of the most non-religious indeed anti religious gov'ts in recent history.

Remember, people hate people. People covet resources. People try to secure power. Usually it is bigots who try to blame religion...

---------------

"How long will you keep killing people?" asked Lady Astor of Stalin in 1931. Replied Stalin, "the process would continue as long as was necessary" to establish a communist society.

Probably 61,911,000 people, 54,769,000 of them citizens, have been murdered by the Communist Party--the government--of the Soviet Union. This is about 178 people for each letter, comma, period, digit, and other characters in this book. Old and young, healthy and sick, men and women, and even infants and infirm, were killed in cold-blood. They were not combatants in civil war or rebellions, they were not criminals. Indeed, nearly all were guilty of ... nothing.

Some were from the wrong class--bourgeoisie, land owners, aristocrats, kulaks. Some were from the wrong nation or race-- Ukrainians, Black Sea Greeks, Kalmyks, Volga Germans. Some were from the wrong political faction--Trotskyites, Mensheviks, Social Revolutionaries. Or some were just their sons and daughters, wives and husbands, or mothers and fathers. And some were those occupied by the Red Army--Balts, Germans, Poles, Hungarians, Rumanians. Then some were simply in the way of social progress, like the mass of peasants or religious believers. Or some were eliminated because of their potential opposition, such as writers, teachers, churchmen; or the military high command; or even high and low Communist Party members themselves.

In fact, we have witnessed in the Soviet Union a true egalitarian social cleansing and flushing: no group or class escaped, for everyone and anyone could have had counter-revolutionary ancestors, class lineage, counter-revolutionary ideas or thought, or be susceptible to them. And thus, almost anyone was arrested, interrogated, tortured, and after a forced confession of a plot to blow up the Kremlin, or some such, shot or sentenced to the dry guillotine--slow death by exposure, malnutrition, and overwork in a forced labor camp.

Part of this mass killing was genocide, as in the wholesale murder of hundreds of thousands of Don Cossacks in 1919,1 the intentional starving of about 5,000,000 Ukrainian peasants to death in 1932-33,2 or the deportation to mass death of 50,000 to 60,000 Estonians in 1949.3 Part was mass murder, as of the wholesale extermination of perhaps 6,500,000 "kulaks" (in effect, the better off peasants and those resisting collectivization) from 1930 to 1937,4 the execution of perhaps a million Party members in the Great Terror of 1937-38,5 and the massacre of all Trotskyites in the forced labor camps.6

And part of the killing was so random and idiosyncratic that journalists and social scientists have no concept for it, as in hundreds of thousands of people being executed according to preset, government, quotas. Says Vladimir Petrov (who in 1954 defected while a spy-chief in Australia and whose credibility and subsequent revelations were verified by a Royal--Australian-- Commission on Espionage7) about his work during the years 1936 to 1938.

--------------------------------

Maybe Golding was right. That is sickening.

[JustinJ]

In general for me excluding any kind of religious or political discussion out of a pen board makes sense for me, is important and I support this.

There are much too many extremists religious and political out there.
The potential of disastrous troubles such discussions can cause, especially when people from all over the world participate are not worth it. They also can't add any value to our hobby.
It only has the potential to split people and destroy a community.

I agree with that. There are, after all, plenty of places on the internet designed for religious or political discussion. There are rather fewer places for fountain pen discussion. Also, it's worth trying to learn a little from history. It was politics that destroyed Lion & Pen. Any other pen group that gets too far into these contentious issues is likely to go the same way.

Hi Deb,

It is good to see you here. I had wrote you some time back on FPN about a specific pen you had.

I think it is okay if someone mentions their beliefs. Beliefs define a person or gives a world view if you prefer a different terminology. Manny wrote something that was from a Christian perspective. I have no problems with it and do not really considering him proselytizing. He is only revealing an important part of his life. I am not a Christian but have no problems with him coming from this perspective. I have many friends who are Christians. I've worked with Muslims and known Hindus throughout my life. I've never had a problem with anybody over their religion. At the end of the day, we are just people

I agree that the board should not be about the arguments of belief in a deity or not. Someone should be comfortable enough to mention their worldview perspective. As you said, politics and religion can cause discord. I see no problem with someone mentioning their belief or political affiliation as long as it is done without vitriol or attacking another person's worldview.

I see your point about forums for religions. I do not think that the lounge area will turn into a forum that is about proving or disproving the existence of a deity. If someone is passionate enough about this topic, I'm sure they would be in a forum about it.

[david i]

More commentary on China from a quick web search.:

The genocide that took place during Mao Zedong's rule in China is by far one of the worst genocides in history; worst being in terms of lives lost. It is estimated that Mao Zedong more than quadrupled the death toll of that during Hitler's rule in Germany. From 1958-1961, which was known as the Great Leap Forward, the most lives were lost. Many people were tortured, and many others went missing.

Mao Zedong's background
For years, he formed a group of anarchist, known as the "Revolutionary Army of Workers and Peasants" in a bookstore located in Changsha. Then, after the Chinese Communist Party was founded, Mao Zedong began fighting for his title as the Chairman. In 1945, he reached his goal and began using it to further his pursuits. As Chairman he led a Chinese Civil War and with the help of the rest of the CCP, formed the People's Republic of China. For ten years (1949-1959) he was the leader of this new government (and the genocide), and in the year of 1979, he was confirmed to be dead due to heart attack.

Lives lost in this genocide
The entire time period of this genocide was from 1958 to 1969. There were different segments during this time in which greater losses occurred. The worst being the three years of the Great Leap Forward, in which anywhere from 16 to 40 million lives were lost. The total amount - making this one of the worst genocides - is at minimum 45 million. This amount varies up to 70 million since new death records uncover more details. With the evidence being hidden, researchers must carefully search China's documents.

Reasons
One reason behind this genocide, is that Mao Zedong wanted China to catch up economically with the western world; setting a goal of little over a decade to equal production output of competitors such as Great Britain. Land was taken from farmers due to the growth of communism, and steel grew as the main import; over 50%. With metal being purchased, there was less money left for food production. This of course led to famine. Many opposed this rapid change, but that only led to their death. In the first year, over half a million had been sentenced to their demise.

Mao Zedong wanted more than just a change in production level. He also wanted to destroy Chinese family culture. Reason being is that it opposed his preferred utopian ideas. Such thoughts were in the opposite direction of capitalism; focusing on equal distribution. This period of reform became known as the Cultural Revolution and took place from 1966-1969; with anywhere up to 30 million being murdered. From these horrifying numbers, it is easy to understand why this is one of the worst ...

[david i]

Most people in history (and also these days) were killed out of religious motivations.
Personally I think the world would be a better place without any religion (Just as a personal statement, I don't want to discuss this)

Thus, per the mere sampling of genocides I offered in the last couple posts, we see that one best avoid simplistic claims about religious folk. Typically, such claims represent bias or agenda, not thoughtful research.

regards

david

[Pterodactylus]

David, I do not want to discuss this topic, and especially I do not want to discuss it with YOU.

Think about almost 2000 years Christian church politics: convert or die, comply with your world view or die,...
Think about the crusades.
You won't believe when the last witch was burned in Europe.
Think about almost 1500 years Moslem politics which was almost the same: belief or die, convert or die,...
Or at the beginning of the Christians other groups burned or killed the Christians.
The list is endless,these are only the biggest two examples, but you will probably don't find such nice statistics about this.
Watch the news and you will get daily samples of religious motivated murders, but most of them are not public.

But I don't want to start such a discussion, this is my last post to this topic.

[david i]

David, I do not want to discuss this topic, and especially I do not want to discuss it with YOU.

Straw Man. You already have discussed this topic, and indeed you are further discussing it. Ain't that all ironical...

The rest of your post case is moot. I have thought about all the points you raise. Old news, really.

Do re-read my posts on this topic before bringing out irrelevant/straw man notions.

Never have I said people were not harmed in... the name of... religion. That they have been is... irrelevant to my thesis.

Fun stuff, this philosophizing. I look forward to your further discussion of religion...

David, I do not want to discuss this topic, and especially I do not want to discuss it with YOU.

regards-

david

[david i]

So, as I am inclined toward research rather than polemic, let's examine some numbers...

http://www.scienceblogs.com/greglade...o-the-present/


" It is perhaps idle to attempt to estimate the number of executions for witchcraft throughout the country. Various writers have made suggestions some of which are widely fantastical. On the Continent, where burnings were carried out wholesale, Kurtz has estimated that subsequent to the bull of Innocent VIII (1484) 300,000 witches were brought to the stake[3]*. Such figures may well be true, but what is to be thought of Robert Steele's statements in Social England [4] that 70,000 witches were hanged under the Act of James I. One hundredth part of such a figure would obviously be an over- estimate. One must hesitate also to accept the same writer's suggestion that in Scotland 8,000 women were burnt between the years 1560 and 1600 [2].

Another writer, George Kittredge, also criticizes Steele's figure:

I stand aghast at these figures. There is no sense or reason in them. No records have been published or examined which would justify the assertion that a seventieth part of this monstrous number met their death in the period named. As for the time from the passage of the act in 1604 till the death of James in 1625, Mr. Steele would find it hard to make out an average of more than two or three executions a year [5].

Ewen proceeds to make an estimate:

If records of 77 per centum of the Home Circuit Assizes shew [sic] 112 executions, it is improbable that the total could have exceeded 150, or for the six circuits 900, and adding an equal number for independent courts, 1,800. Such a total would be the result of allowing for 12 times the Essex activities of Hopkins, and it is therefore much in excess of fact, actually the number of executions for witchcraft in England from 1542-1736 may be guessed at less [sic] than 1,000 [2].

Let us now turn our attention to the continent. Levack makes estimates of the deaths in all of early modern Europe (ca. 1450-1750):

Even if we make allowances for trial records that have been lost or destroyed, the total number of persons who were actually tried for witchcraft throughout Europe probably did not greatly exceed 100,000. About half of these persons lived in German lands within the Holy Roman Empire. A project organized by by Heinrich Himmler in the 1930's to obtain information regarding persons tried for magic and witchcraft in the past yielded a file containing data from some 30,000 prosecutions, the great majority of which took place in Germany. Since some of the entries in this file contain the names of more than one person, and since the records of many prosecutions are for one reason or another not included in the file, the total number of German prosecutions could easily have been 50,000 [6].

Levack counts trials in the rest of Europe as follows: Poland: 15,000; Switzerland: 9,000; Lorraine, Franche-Comte, France and "a string of autonomous states within the Empire": 10,000; the British Isles: 5,000 (Levack remarks that more than half of these were in Scotland; note that nevertheless his estimate exceeds Ewen.); Scandinavia: 5,000; Hungary, Transylvania, Moldavia, Wallachia, and Russia: probably not more than 4,000; Spain and the Italian States: 10,000 [6].

Levack comes to a total of 110,000 trials and estimates that, "European communities executed about 60,000 witches during the early modern period [6]. Another source Kors and Peters put a range around that number:

It is impossible to calculate accurately the total number of convicted witches who were burned at the stake or hanged between the fourteenth and seventeenth centuries, but few students begin guessing below the range of fifty to one hundred thousand, and some would double or triple that figure [7].

After initially writing this report, I discovered some of the sources for higher numbers. Walker does indeed refer to a larger number:

The real reason for the persistence of the witchcraft idea was that Christian authorities couldn't let it die, without admitting that God's word was wrong , and God's servants had committed millions of legal murders and tortured millions of helpless people without cause [8].

Although Walker cites references for other aspects of her study, this passage on page 1087-8 of Walker's work gives no reference for the number in the millions. In the section on witches and the section on witchcraft, I find no other reference to a total number of victims. The work is large and perhaps she is more specific elsewhere, but I find no cross reference to such a passage.

By chance, however, I have come upon the source for the nine million. While browsing in a bookstore, I came across Ann Llewellyn Barstow's Witchcraze. Barstow writes [9]:

Among the feminist writers claiming millions of deaths is Andrea Dworkin. Working from the only estimates available in the 1970's, Dworkin made the claim, "In Europe, women were persecuted as witches for nearly four hundred years, burned at the stake, perhaps as many as nine million of them...."[10] The "nearly four hundred years" almost doubles the years of actual major persecution (1560-1760), and the "nine million of them" is off by about 8,900,000. Even further off the mark is the claim by certain German feminists that ten million women were killed [11]. Faced with such exaggereations, the historian is forced to make an estimate based on the records, no matter how incomplete they may be.

Barstow is correct that Dworkin mentions the nine million figure:

It is hard to arrive at a figure for the whole of the Continent and the British Isles, but the most responsible estimate would seem to be 9 million. It may well, some authorities contend, have been more. Nine million seems almost moderate when one realizes that the Blessed Reichhelm of Schongan at the end of the 13th century computed a number of the Devil-driven to be 1,758,064,176. A conservative, Jean Weir, physician to the Duke of Cleves, estimated the number to be 7,409,127[10].

It should be noted that the latter two numbers are estimates of how many witches there were whereas the 9 million is an estimate of executions. The comparison of the figure of 9 million people executed with an impossible 1.8 billion figure for the number of witches does not make it a more reasonable figure. Unfortunately, Dworkin does not tell us how she arrives at the figure of 9 million. Barstow seems to think that it is Dworkin's estimate. I don't think so. For much of her history of the witchcraze Dworkin relies on another source: Witchcraft by Pennethorne Hughes, originally written in 1952. In this book we find the curious comment:

The number who died as witches is purely problematical. Someone has suggested nine millions. It may be many more [12].

I suggest that Hughes may be the source of the 9 million figure. Perhaps, "someone" suggested it before him, but unfortunately, he doesn't say who. I would be most interested in earlier references to such a number if anyone comes upon them.

Preparing us for her own estimate Barstow writes:

Wanting to record every known victim, to ensure that the historical record finally acknowledges her death, I offer the most complete record available at this time.

She critiques Levack:

The most careful totals made so far are those of Brian Levack, who estimates 110,000 accusations and 60,000 deaths [6]. I believe that though his are reasonable figures, they are almost certainly too low.

Barstow claims 200,000 accusations and 100,000 executions. Anyone interested in her method should consult appendix B of her book.

Because I have yet to see any methodology for the 9 million, I cannot believe these figures. I am willing to consider such a figure if I can find out "

--------------

Another source, "And it is true that very few were burned at the stake. That image is so gruesome that it became associated with the entire period. Most were hung, some were crushed by stone, and some were drowned. Contrary to common belief there are very good records still in existence today for many of the individual trials and sentences assessed to the convicted.

According to Kirk Durston, National Director, New Scholars Society:
The most realistic figure for the Spanish Inquisition puts the total killed from AD1480 to AD1808 at up to 31,912. Finally, records indicate that the number of "witches" killed may be over 30,000. Some
argue that records don't tell everything and suggest that maybe even 100,000 were killed. These three events, totaling over 264,000 killed, are thought to be the largest atrocities perpetrated by one or another form of Christendom. "

---------
Ain't holding a candle to Red China

regards

david

[fountainpenkid]

A wish for the disappearance of religion from this earth is a wish for the disappearance of a basic human quality. You're certainly right that religion has caused many horrible things throughout history, all so ridiculously and gruesomely hypocritical, but these effects are not the whole story at all. Religion saves people, gets people up from the dirt, enriches ones life if need be. I do not need religion at this time in my life; there have been no hardships bad enough to bring me to a temple, church, mosque, or synagogue, but at one point in my life there may be that need. A world without religion would outcast me in my hardship further if there was nothing else left to turn to. A world without religion would be a world I doubt would ever happen.

[david i]

Let's explore Roman Persection of Early Christians...

Source,
10:00 PM ET
Christ was persecuted, but what about Christians?

CNN examines the tumultuous early years of Christianity in a special narrated by Liam Neeson. Watch “After Jesus: The First Christians,” Sunday at 8 p.m. ET.

From the article:

Millions of Christians worldwide will celebrate the death and resurrection of Jesus on this Easter Sunday. But the story of how the church rose to prominence after Jesus’ death is being turned upside down.

According to a belief passed down through the centuries, the church grew because of Roman persecution. The blood of Christian martyrs such as Perpetua became “the seed of the church,” said third-century church leader Tertullian. It’s the Hollywood version of Christianity reflected in epic biblical films such as “Ben-Hur” and “The Robe.” Vicious Romans relentlessly targeted early Christians, so the story goes, but the faith of people like Perpetua proved so inspiring that Christianity became the official religion of Rome, and eventually the largest religion in the world.

But that script is getting a rewrite. The first Christians were never systematically persecuted by the Romans, and most martyrdom stories – with the exception of a handful such as Perpetua's – were exaggerated and invented, several scholars and historians say. It wasn’t just how the early Christians died that inspired so many people in the ancient world; it was how they lived.

“You had much better odds of winning the lottery than you would have becoming a martyr,” says Joyce E. Salisbury, author of “The Blood of Martyrs: Unintended Consequences of Ancient Violence.”

“The odds were pretty slim. More people read about martyrs than ever saw one.”

Do Christians have a martyr complex today?

The debate over exactly how many Christians were persecuted and martyred may seem irrelevant centuries later. A scholarly consensus has indeed emerged that Roman persecution of Christians was sporadic, and that at least some Christian martyrdom stories are theological tall tales.

But a new book by Candida Moss, a New Testament professor at the University of Notre Dame, is bringing that message to the masses.

Moss says ancient stories of church persecution have created a contemporary cult of bogus Christian martyrs. She says too many American Christians are acting like they’re members of a persecuted minority, being thrown to the lions by people who simply disagree with them.

--------------

Davey's view? Pikers compared to China and the USSR.

regards

-d

[TSherbs]

Something wrong at FPN? I can't login.

[thagbert]

Religious discussion! Run away, run away!!!!!!

Thread hijackers!!!

[david i]

Religious discussion! Run away, run away!!!!!!

Thread hijackers!!!

All those exclamations points are hurting my eyes

But, no, this isn't a religious discussion. More an analysis of random assertions

regards

d

[carlc]

Something wrong at FPN? I can't login.

Looked like it had been hijacked again earlier.

[david i]

Something wrong at FPN? I can't login.

Looked like it had been hijacked again earlier.

After all that work transferring servers...

d

[david i]

Another article, viewing religion as an occasional excuse, but not a cause, for genocide:

http://worldwithoutgenocide.org/reso...n-and-genocide

By Ellen J. Kennedy, Ph.D., Executive Director

World Without Genocide at William Mitchell College of Law

The Nazis exterminated 6 million Jews because of religion; Orthodox Serbs, Catholic Croats, and Bosnian Muslims slaughtered each other because of religion: the Sudanese Muslim government killed more than 2 million South Sudanese Christians because of religion.

Many people believe these statements and see religion as the ultimate cause of genocide. Yet if we dig a little deeper, the causes become more complicated – and more difficult to solve or prevent.

If the Nazis wanted the Third Reich to become a Christian state, conversion or even expulsion of Jews would have been a possibility, instead of annihilation. And why were even those who converted to Christianity killed?

Under Tito’s tight control in Yugoslavia from 1953 – 1980, the Serbs, Bosnians, and Croats lived and worked together, intermarried, and didn’t know or care who identified with which religious group. Indeed, religion was not even part of the national rhetoric or practice under the forty years of Communist control.

The decades-long civil war in South Sudan between Muslims and Christians came to a tentative peace in 2005, bringing some stability to the South even while that region remained controlled by the Muslim north. Yet in the past several months, the conflict has re-ignited with a frightening brutality. Why, after six years of albeit fragile calm, has this happened?

In virtually every case of genocide, a ruling elite is in a precarious position with a fragile economy and a volatile political situation. The leaders are desperate to maintain control under conditions that could quickly devolve into chaos.

There are some legitimate solutions to this scenario. The most democratic response is to strengthen civil society, enhancing economic stability and incorporating diverse political groups into the state’s governing polity. However, to implement these changes the elite must cede some power and control to other entities.

Instead, many elites choose to solidify their position by attempting to increase control through grabbing others’ economic resources and rallying key political factions against minorities, who can easily be marginalized and identified by religion.

These examples (the Holocaust, former Yugoslavia, and Sudan), conflicts spanning nearly a half-century, fit this explanation, as do similar situations in Cambodia, Burma, and many other places.

Interwar Germany was devastated by World War I. The economy was in shambles, the government shaky. The Third Reich gained control during this unstable period. The ability to rally ordinary Germans against Jews provided an opportunity to enhance political solidarity while simultaneously gaining economic assets.

The Jews were portrayed, contradictorily, as both Bolsheviks, and hence a terrible threat to Nazism, and evil capitalists controlling the world’s financial markets. By targeting and marginalizing Jews, the Nazis were able to seize Jews’ financial assets and unite Germans against a perceived threat to Germany’s body politic. Religion was used to foment hate and create economic and political gain for the Nazis.

In former Yugoslavia, dictator Tito died in 1980. With his death, the tight control disintegrated. The nation’s economy imploded, with unemployment and inflation soaring and various groups and individuals jockeying for political control.

The situation – and the outcome – was similar to that of Germany. Instigated by Serb military leader Slobodan Milosevic, Serbs attacked both Bosnians and Croats. In the ensuing civil war, each group attacked one another to gain land and political and economic control. The devastation polarized Muslims, Catholics, and Orthodox in Europe’s worst brutality since the Holocaust – the siege of Sarajevo, with 10,500 people dead, including more than a thousand children; the massacre of more than 8,000 Bosnian Muslim men and boys at Srebrenica; and a death toll in Bosnia of more than 200,000 men, women, and children.

The Sudanese conflict is another example of extermination based on religion but reaching far deeper. The southern Sudanese Christians are sitting on Sudan’s largest resource: oil. The war between the north and south, ostensibly based on religion and ethnicity, is, at its foundation, a catastrophe playing out over control of the oil.

Religion, our guide to ethics and justice, can divide and ‘other’ a group to gain power and control through genocide.


----------

Regards

-d

[liapuyat]

Something wrong at FPN? I can't login.

I can't log in, too. Got a 403 notice. "Either the address you are accessing this site from has been banned for previous malicious behavior or the action you attempted is considered to be hostile to the proper functioning of this system." And then it says my ISP hosts spambots. I was able to log in 12 hours ago; I wonder what has happened again.

[79spitfire]

It's working for me, but is very slow.

[79spitfire]

For me the irony of 'no religious' references, is it becomes almost a religion or 'crusade' in it self, eliminating all references to religion. Faith is a part of the human condition, faith in a greater being or faith in a lack thereof. Humans do and have done horrible things to each other, and it will likely continue.

I may get in trouble for this, I also find it hypocritical, when they dash some references and allow others. I find the same with political subjects, allowing some and not others. I understand they are polarizing subjects, and can cause heated debates, but letting one slide and another pass when the rules clearly state 'NO' is just not cool.