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Thread: Banned From FPN?

  1. #401
    Senior Member Pterodactylus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Banned From FPN?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flounder View Post
    I'm very fond of FPN. It's the forum I started on, back in 2009, and if I were ever banned, I would miss participating on the board a lot.

    There's so much about the banning issue that's down to judgement call; what merits a ban/ what doesn't, what rules are just/what aren't.

    It's okay with me if judgements are made I don't agree with, because there's no way a forum the size of FPN is going to have rules and judgements that seem fair to everybody. There are a couple of issues once a banning has been passed that I have not been able to reconcile:

    1. Banned members are flagged as 'Away'. If a member is de facto banned, they should be flagged as such. It is disconcerting when folk are euphamistically disappeared. Chemyst's banning is an example of a FPN banning done 'right', in that the avatar's signature line explains the transgression.

    2. Similarly, if a member is de facto banned, they should be told as much -not 'suspended' for a specified period that indefinitely extends.
    Many times (also in my case) they do it in a more perfidious way.
    They just remove your posting permission, you canīt create a post anymore, you canīt even reply to a private message, you can't write private messages anymore, nothing.

    You have no way to complain, or ask why it happened, or let anybody know what happened.
    Nobody will ask questions, as nobody know what happened.
    Your account just look fine from outside.

    I really enjoyed the participation there for years, I never really noticed that something like this happened until they censored me for posting a drawing of mine.
    When I complained and asked, me and others were censored iron fisted.
    Finally after I posted a link to one of my drawings I posted here (instead of there) they removed the post again.
    When I asked and complained they "Muted"me.
    I think it was the snake in the grass Amberlea.

    As said I enjoyed posting there for years, but even if they would unmute me I would never participate there anymore.

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    Default Re: Banned From FPN?

    After so many years of rewarding membership for you, what do you think went wrong?

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    Default Re: Banned From FPN?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Okie dokie. Sorry that you had a negative experience there. Isn't this forum privately owned also? Aren't we simply the beneficiaries of a wealthy person's largesse and set of rules (albeit unenforced)?

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    True, but FPN is incorporated and has a definite financial basis.

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    Default Re: Banned From FPN?

    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    Where is the evidence FPN offers protection payments?
    The now gone Conway Stewart forum......the actions there provided ample evidence.

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    Default Re: Banned From FPN?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Okie dokie. Sorry that you had a negative experience there. Isn't this forum privately owned also? Aren't we simply the beneficiaries of a wealthy person's largesse and set of rules (albeit unenforced)?

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    Yes, but I doubt this forum makes as much money as FPN. It is an open forum. I am thankful for Eric and Dan for building up FPG and for the people who actively contribute to this forum. FPN is a full time business that is build on the contribution of FPN users and Wim's daily work.
    "Love is the final fight."

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    Senior Member Jon Szanto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Banned From FPN?

    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    Where is the evidence FPN offers protection payments?
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Default Re: Banned From FPN?

    In Wim's own words "You may think it is friendly, but you are telling us how to run these forums, and you keep on coming back on this. It is not up to you, you are a guest here, a visitor, to our house. Remember that."

    Clearly, any contributor is just a visitor.

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  12. #408
    Golden Ghost Chemyst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Banned From FPN?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhruv View Post
    In Wim's own words "You may think it is friendly, but you are telling us how to run these forums, and you keep on coming back on this. It is not up to you, you are a guest here, a visitor, to our house. Remember that."

    Clearly, any contributor is just a visitor.
    True and not something I ever disputed with Mr. Geeraets.

    My point was always, if you drive off all the interesting and knowledgeable dinner guests, eventually you end up with either a bunch of uninformed newcomers or a group that is just "beige curtains". Neither group helps makes a vibrant dinner party.

    Conflating "interesting and knowledgeable" with "willing to pay-to-play" was always my concern. Mr. Geeraets make his money by selling access to content that he gathers for free from willing volunteers. There is some value in the historical archive true, but in order to stay relevant he needs to keep new high quality content coming in. It is a paradox that those who know the most are those who need FPN the least. Making it hard to give him free content by charging fees and arbitrary moderation only hurts long term viability and cuts into his pocket book down the line. Short term profits (and fun in the case of him arbitrarily banning members) over sustainable long term profits is the real problem.
    Last edited by Chemyst; February 19th, 2017 at 09:58 PM.

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    Default Re: Banned From FPN?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chemyst View Post

    True and not something I ever disputed with Mr. Geeraets.

    My point was always, if you drive off all the interesting and knowledgeable dinner guests, eventually you end up with either a bunch of uninformed newcomers or a group that is just "beige curtains". Neither group helps makes a vibrant dinner party.

    Conflating "interesting and knowledgeable" with "willing to pay-to-play" was always my concern. Mr. Geeraets make his money by selling access to content that he gathers for free from willing volunteers. There is some value in the historical archive true, but in order to stay relevant he needs to keep new high quality content coming in. It is a paradox that those who know the most are those who need FPN the least. Making it hard to give him free content by charging fees and arbitrary moderation only hurts long term viability and cuts into his pocket book down the line. Short term profits (and fun in the case of him arbitrarily banning members) over sustainable long term profits is the real problem.
    Agree with every point.
    However, I won't say that my banning was arbitrary. Circumstances which lead to my banning were very stupid.
    If you are not going to do anything about a member who enters a group buy and backs out when the items are ready, then why are you the moderator/admin? Worse if you are not banning that member only because she donates.
    You are just killing the goodwill of the person who is doing the group buy and of other contributors who get to know about such an incident and also about no action taken against it.

  15. #410
    Golden Ghost Chemyst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Banned From FPN?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhruv View Post
    However, I won't say that my banning was arbitrary. Circumstances which lead to my banning were very stupid.
    If you are not going to do anything about a member who enters a group buy and backs out when the items are ready, then why are you the moderator/admin? Worse if you are not banning that member only because she donates.
    Certainly money has had a distorting effect on how things operate on FPN in the past five years or so.

    For a time, it was fairly innocuous. When the admin group was large, the membership diverse and the monetary influencers few, things ran pretty smoothly. Conway Stewart was a relatively small corner of the board and no one really had a lot to say about the FPN fundraising ventures (two or three specialty Noodler's Ink bottlings, a couple of memo pads with the FPN logo and the occasional FPN pen sold through Pear Tree Pens).

    Since about 2011 or so, it has gone another way with consolidation of the admin group, homogenization of the membership and the large influx of money (both through paid membership and large corporate sponsorships).

    This had distorted the type and amount of content and how the owner/operators control day-to-day activities. It is hard to know if you are going to accidentally step on a figurative landmine or insult a sacred cow when officially there are no sponsors and everyone is equal.

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    Default Re: Banned From FPN?

    Quote Originally Posted by dfo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Okie dokie. Sorry that you had a negative experience there. Isn't this forum privately owned also? Aren't we simply the beneficiaries of a wealthy person's largesse and set of rules (albeit unenforced)?

    Sent from my BLU ADVANCE 5.0 HD using Tapatalk
    Yes, but I doubt this forum makes as much money as FPN. It is an open forum. I am thankful for Eric and Dan for building up FPG and for the people who actively contribute to this forum. FPN is a full time business that is build on the contribution of FPN users and Wim's daily work.
    I am sure that FPG doesn't make as much, and both forums are built upon the content that members provide, and I too am grateful for both. They each have different strengths.

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    Default Re: Banned From FPN?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chemyst View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhruv View Post
    However, I won't say that my banning was arbitrary. Circumstances which lead to my banning were very stupid.
    If you are not going to do anything about a member who enters a group buy and backs out when the items are ready, then why are you the moderator/admin? Worse if you are not banning that member only because she donates.
    Certainly money has had a distorting effect on how things operate on FPN in the past five years or so.

    For a time, it was fairly innocuous. When the admin group was large, the membership diverse and the monetary influencers few, things ran pretty smoothly. Conway Stewart was a relatively small corner of the board and no one really had a lot to say about the FPN fundraising ventures (two or three specialty Noodler's Ink bottlings, a couple of memo pads with the FPN logo and the occasional FPN pen sold through Pear Tree Pens).

    Since about 2011 or so, it has gone another way with consolidation of the admin group, homogenization of the membership and the large influx of money (both through paid membership and large corporate sponsorships).

    This had distorted the type and amount of content and how the owner/operators control day-to-day activities. It is hard to know if you are going to accidentally step on a figurative landmine or insult a sacred cow when officially there are no sponsors and everyone is equal.
    What do you mean by "homogenization of membership"? Is there any objective measurement for this?

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    Default Re: Banned From FPN?

    Quote Originally Posted by HughC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    Where is the evidence FPN offers protection payments?
    The now gone Conway Stewart forum......the actions there provided ample evidence.
    I've actually asked both sides point blank about this and until I see actual evidence that there was a pay off I'm going with the lack of breather holes as the problem here.

    I'm not really party to the issues that surrounded the CS forum and the restart of the company and all the history but slinging unsupported assertions several years later serves no purpose.

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    Default Re: Banned From FPN?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chemyst View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhruv View Post
    In Wim's own words "You may think it is friendly, but you are telling us how to run these forums, and you keep on coming back on this. It is not up to you, you are a guest here, a visitor, to our house. Remember that."

    Clearly, any contributor is just a visitor.
    True and not something I ever disputed with Mr. Geeraets.

    My point was always, if you drive off all the interesting and knowledgeable dinner guests, eventually you end up with either a bunch of uninformed newcomers or a group that is just "beige curtains". Neither group helps makes a vibrant dinner party.

    Conflating "interesting and knowledgeable" with "willing to pay-to-play" was always my concern. Mr. Geeraets make his money by selling access to content that he gathers for free from willing volunteers. There is some value in the historical archive true, but in order to stay relevant he needs to keep new high quality content coming in. It is a paradox that those who know the most are those who need FPN the least. Making it hard to give him free content by charging fees and arbitrary moderation only hurts long term viability and cuts into his pocket book down the line. Short term profits (and fun in the case of him arbitrarily banning members) over sustainable long term profits is the real problem.
    Having just spent the last 5 days in LA at a Pen Show, I'd point out that most of the group of people that "know the most" have never participated in the FPN or here or any other on-line forum. Some were active on Pen Trace and Zoss but I would say the largest body of knowledge has yet to participate in an on-line forum.

    A continual rehashing and comparisons of the administrative policies of various boards and such certainly doesn't do much to entice the experts to participate.

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  21. #415
    Senior Member Jon Szanto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Banned From FPN?

    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    I'd point out that most of the group of people that "know the most" have never participated in the FPN or here or any other on-line forum.

    A continual rehashing and comparisons of the administrative policies of various boards and such certainly doesn't do much to entice the experts to participate.
    On the first point, I know you well enough that I hardly need to point it out, but... These are changing times. The knowledge that these men and (scattered) women know relates almost exclusively to vintage pens and the vintage world. OTOH, there is a growing audience of people for whom the reannaissance of pens and pen use, and all the gaudy and wild new (and many poorly-made) pens has a great fascination. These people populate a big percentage of the online forums, they have their own (ahem) "body of experts", and that accounts for much of the traffic.

    There is yet to exist one *new* online forum that successfully intermingles old and new. FPN may be the best at that, if only that some old people have hung over from earlier days.

    As to the latter comment, I couldn't agree more. It always amazes me when one of these old threads gets necro'd.
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Default Re: Banned From FPN?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Szanto View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    I'd point out that most of the group of people that "know the most" have never participated in the FPN or here or any other on-line forum.

    A continual rehashing and comparisons of the administrative policies of various boards and such certainly doesn't do much to entice the experts to participate.
    On the first point, I know you well enough that I hardly need to point it out, but... These are changing times. The knowledge that these men and (scattered) women know relates almost exclusively to vintage pens and the vintage world. OTOH, there is a growing audience of people for whom the reannaissance of pens and pen use, and all the gaudy and wild new (and many poorly-made) pens has a great fascination. These people populate a big percentage of the online forums, they have their own (ahem) "body of experts", and that accounts for much of the traffic.

    There is yet to exist one *new* online forum that successfully intermingles old and new. FPN may be the best at that, if only that some old people have hung over from earlier days.

    As to the latter comment, I couldn't agree more. It always amazes me when one of these old threads gets necro'd.
    You are of course correct in that I'm speaking mostly in reference to the vintage side of the pen sphere. BUT, I'm also including the repair, ephemera, use, etc in that lump. Specifically repair as that applies to new and old pens. There are few well known repair people that do post but the people I learned from don't and they are some of the best at what they do.

    Then there is use...How many of the now defunct Master Penmen post regularly? How many absolutely abused flex nibs do you see? Ever see one of the old school nib guys speak on what a flex nib is? Yeah I know 'we' all warn against flexing a nib from 0.1 to 3.0 mm but it doesn't seem to matter.

    A real problem is that even when one of the knowledgeable experts posts, their comments get dismissed. In part because they are not well known due to a minimal presence on-line. Most important thing to learn is how to know what you don't know and that won't happen on a forum board.

  23. #417
    Senior Member Jon Szanto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Banned From FPN?

    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    You are of course correct in that I'm speaking mostly in reference to the vintage side of the pen sphere. BUT, I'm also including the repair, ephemera, use, etc in that lump. Specifically repair as that applies to new and old pens. There are few well known repair people that do post but the people I learned from don't and they are some of the best at what they do.

    Then there is use...How many of the now defunct Master Penmen post regularly? How many absolutely abused flex nibs do you see? Ever see one of the old school nib guys speak on what a flex nib is? Yeah I know 'we' all warn against flexing a nib from 0.1 to 3.0 mm but it doesn't seem to matter.

    A real problem is that even when one of the knowledgeable experts posts, their comments get dismissed. In part because they are not well known due to a minimal presence on-line. Most important thing to learn is how to know what you don't know and that won't happen on a forum board.
    I really couldn't agree more with all of this. That said, there is a changing world, and if valued members and people with a body of knowledge choose to not interact, there is a loss all around. I would like for more of the old guard to rub up against the enthusiasm of new players; I would like a new audience to have reason to believe they aren't simply looking at a bunch of grumpy old men. There really could be a win-win under the right circumstances.

    We can't be naive, though. The elements such as 'knowledge gets dismissed' are widespread at the moment. I see it in my profession: when I was young, we massively valued the wisdom of players who had been on the concert stage for decades, eager to hear their thoughts on many matters; now, the young players simply circle-jerk all the conservatory rhetoric and focus minute excerpts of music, hoping for perfection (with true understanding never to be found). Try to impart some careful thoughts in that millieu? Not on your life.

    So it isn't just a matter of the venue, but a societal change. The concept of "disruption", well-known to you in the Bay area, has a very big set of downsides.

    And there really is a place for all of this electronical jabber, because there are an awful lot of people who simply can't travel to a pen show. I feel fortunate to have 2 fine shows in striking distance, and if you are somewhat of a casual pen person, traveling far distances to be in a room of strangers and odd pens is a tad daunting. Which is why I've always hoped for a little upside to all this typing.
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Default Re: Banned From FPN?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Szanto View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    You are of course correct in that I'm speaking mostly in reference to the vintage side of the pen sphere. BUT, I'm also including the repair, ephemera, use, etc in that lump. Specifically repair as that applies to new and old pens. There are few well known repair people that do post but the people I learned from don't and they are some of the best at what they do.

    Then there is use...How many of the now defunct Master Penmen post regularly? How many absolutely abused flex nibs do you see? Ever see one of the old school nib guys speak on what a flex nib is? Yeah I know 'we' all warn against flexing a nib from 0.1 to 3.0 mm but it doesn't seem to matter.

    A real problem is that even when one of the knowledgeable experts posts, their comments get dismissed. In part because they are not well known due to a minimal presence on-line. Most important thing to learn is how to know what you don't know and that won't happen on a forum board.
    I really couldn't agree more with all of this. That said, there is a changing world, and if valued members and people with a body of knowledge choose to not interact, there is a loss all around. I would like for more of the old guard to rub up against the enthusiasm of new players; I would like a new audience to have reason to believe they aren't simply looking at a bunch of grumpy old men. There really could be a win-win under the right circumstances.

    We can't be naive, though. The elements such as 'knowledge gets dismissed' are widespread at the moment. I see it in my profession: when I was young, we massively valued the wisdom of players who had been on the concert stage for decades, eager to hear their thoughts on many matters; now, the young players simply circle-jerk all the conservatory rhetoric and focus minute excerpts of music, hoping for perfection (with true understanding never to be found). Try to impart some careful thoughts in that millieu? Not on your life.

    So it isn't just a matter of the venue, but a societal change. The concept of "disruption", well-known to you in the Bay area, has a very big set of downsides.

    And there really is a place for all of this electronical jabber, because there are an awful lot of people who simply can't travel to a pen show. I feel fortunate to have 2 fine shows in striking distance, and if you are somewhat of a casual pen person, traveling far distances to be in a room of strangers and odd pens is a tad daunting. Which is why I've always hoped for a little upside to all this typing.
    We have indeed discussed this in person, in private email, and on the boards and I doubt we have come to any conclusion and we certainly have not solved any problems. Since others may not follow, I'll try to summarize 5 years worth in a few words. Essentially Jon and I have discussed the differences between the 'old guard' and the 'new kids' and why there are problems, perceived or real. Most of the discussion has played out on the various boards and social media, or has it?

    With broad strokes we shall define 'old guard' as the collector crowd and the 'new kids' as the user crowd. Most collectors don't care much about inks or paper unless they have an unusual box or we are talking about letterhead or other ephemera. In general the 'new kids' like different kinds of papers, inks, colors, etc and they actually use the pens and don't treat them as museum pieces. Many collectors would purchase a new stickered 90 year old pen to upgrade the one they already have and many users would purchase the same pen, rip off the sticker and ink it. To each his own.

    Many threads here and on FPN can be found where those new to FPN have gone to an event, usually a pen show, and felt unwelcome. This usually results in what amounts to name calling and dismissing the 'old guard' as a bunch of rude mean old men (and sometimes women) that don't want the users around. I firmly believe this is not true in 95% of the cases but we generally only hear one side of the story. Specifically we hear the side posted on line, Jon's electronical jabber as it were. There is typically no other side and for the few 'old guard' brave enough to offer an opinion they are quickly met with enough snark and expertise to go away.

    Now for the 'or has it?' question. Just today it struck me that the story is not complete and there is another side of the coin. Jon and I spent 5 days at a pen show. Most (as in 99.5+%) of the on-line community did not spend any time at a pen show in the last week. As you might guess, I spent most of my time with the 'old guard'. My friends from being in the hobby for most of my life. Friends I see once or twice a year and friends I may chat on the phone with a few times more. Anyone want to guess the subject of many conversations at pen shows over the last few years? Yes, the 'old guard' discusses the 'new kids' at shows. Discussions around inking NOS 75 year old pens, repairs that cost to much, not sharing historical documents, etc. I particularly liked a term for the user crowd when it intersected with flex pens...pen abusers.

    I didn't connect it until Jon's post above but even Jon and I have had the in person discussion, most of which never makes in on line. I doubt Jon or I will change more than a few people's minds. I do remember when Jon showed up on the scene and slowly integrated into the 'old guard' from the 'new kids' Perhaps easier for Jon with his graying hair and bow tie but integration happened. A few span both worlds, what we need is more spanning and less spamming. Not to be all doom and gloom, there is a group of people I know working on this very problem.

    Jon, you are up. I need to get some work done.

    T

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    Default Re: Banned From FPN?

    That's a very interesting post, but it does not totally jibe with what I've heard about pen shows. Bear in mind that for obvious reasons I have never been to a show and likely never will. In reading many show reports it is notable that there are plenty of 'stations' where pens can be inked and tried out, where different inks and papers can be sampled, where there are vintage pens and modern pens shoulder to shoulder, where there are both new users and calligraphers.

    To suggest that a pen show is simply full of "old guard" collectors does not sound all that accurate. yes, the online community is large and the number of people (of all persuasions) who go to shows is comparatively small, but that only means that your estimated percentages are skewed. Looking at the average crowd attending on the 'public' day of a show, what proportion are collectors, users, both or neither?

    The online community is vocal online. Less so elsewhere. And vice versa. At a show is there really a drawing of lines?

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    Default Re: Banned From FPN?

    Ok, I really hate derailing, even on a necroposted thread so please, if you are interested in a discussion on pen shows, forums, and the changes taking place...

    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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