What is up with FPN?

[david i]

Tactic 1 from the Pedant's Debating Manual: Assume all instances of figurative language are intended literally; ignore your opponent's larger point and snipe liberally around the margins to make yourself feel intellectually superior.

Oh this game is fun!

Tactic 16 from the LDM: "Object to loss of an imagined 'larger point' when it-- if it exists-- already was drowned by one's embracing numerous tactics from the Losing Debater's Manual". Also known as, "Gripe that one's own poor presentation cost one the game..."

[david i]

Contest moved to a new thread. Link above in Post #473.

Contest is a nice idea

-d

[aschup]

Tactic 1 (finally!) from the Losing Debater's Manual: "When you have nothing useful to say to advance your position, engage Ad Hominem insult"

Oh, irony.

[de_pen_dent]

David, you seem to be under the erroneous impression I am "debating" with you. I am not. Quite frankly, your overly-emotional posts aren't worth it. I have already stated what I think of your vitriol-filled writing style, as far as FPN goes. That's as much time as I am going to give to you on this subject matter.

Enjoy getting in the last word on this subject... and do make sure you point out atleast once more how your departure from FPN was truly epic and taught them a lesson they'll never forget. It has been atleast 10 posts since you did so.

Edited to add: I hope FPG continues to grow, b/c a second pen forum is never a bad thing. And I also cannot wait for FPN to be back.

[david i]

David, you seem to be under the erroneous impression I am "debating" with you. I am not. Quite frankly, your overly-emotional posts aren't worth it. I have already stated what I think of your vitriol-filled writing style, as far as FPN goes. That's as much time as I am going to give to you on this subject matter.

Enjoy getting in the last word on this subject... and do make sure you point out atleast once more how your departure from FPN was truly epic and taught them a lesson they'll never forget. It has been atleast 10 posts since you did so.

Tactic 36 from the LDM: "Accuse others of seeming to be under erroneous impressions, simply because others quote the LDM".

Tactic 9 from the LDM: "Invoke the 'Last Word' thing".

Wonder if anyone will go Godwin on us today. Surely quoting history with FPN is almost as bad as being...

hehehe.

regards

david

[thagbert]

Torch Mob.jpg

[david i]

BTW...

Just arrived at the Chicago Pen Show. I'm tossing these quote from the LDM while at a massive pen show. Cool. Tomorrow Ed Fingerman will be offering oodles of bags of pens and part from the vaults of FPH (you net people do know what "FPH" stands for. No... not Fountain Pen Hell"). I'm due to meet two vintage pen collections for sale, totalling 600 pens, during the next two weeks. Pen Show dinners among pen friends who have real actual names are being planned. Life is... good

More later. Gotta go visit the candy store known as the pen bourse. Ya should know by now how good I can be at finding interesting pens. Some will be shown here soon. In meanwhile, please do snipe at me while I'm finding rare pens. Sort of the Reese's Peanut Butter Cup of pendom: "Pen show finds and softball whines on the internet".

regards
david

[de_pen_dent]

I think I've been very civil towards FPN, all things considered.

Some have simply stated their beef. Others have just gone on and on to the point of embarrassing themselves. Even that humorous "why dont you go play with some pens and ink" line on their placeholder page is now being paraded around as a sign of arrogance. Same with Wim's choosing to not descend to the mudslinging.

The history lesson is this: the admin/mods at FPN wanted to do away with the entire selling of pens, as FPN was never about selling pens. This is why we got the classified section, because it was easier for them to moderate, so they said. Now they are exploiting the very thing they wanted no part of to finance the site (and possibly a profit). I don't know about you but I find the change to be rather humorous.

So they want to make some money of their forum? And the guys that own/operate the forum changed their mind on a policy? Umm, maybe I am missing something here, but so what?

I have no issue with FPN trying to make money to support themselves. My issue comes from the way they're doing it. They're entirely hell-bent against serving traditional ads and instead opt to go with paid membership levels that create complicated rules. If FPN really does have the level of traffic they say they do, then there's no reason not to serve traditional ads. They'd make a killing!

I agree it is a pretty damn dumb way to do things. Everything related to that classifieds section has been a bit left-of-sensible since I got there and that whole three categories of members had me shaking my head in wonder. But hey, it is their forum - they get to decide what they want to charge. If people dont think it is worthwhile, they wont pay. And they can re-visit their decision later.

A bigger issue for me is the heavy-handed deletion of critical posts. But I'd like to get *both* sides of the story, not just one (especially when the loudest voice on this side of the story is so emotionally invested in the subject), before forming a strong opinion.

[aschup]

Wonder if anyone will go Godwin on us today.

This thread already got Godwin'd on page 6.

[david i]

Wonder if anyone will go Godwin on us today.

This thread already got Godwin'd on page 6.

Good to see you following my lead

-d

[Jon Szanto]

A bigger issue for me is the heavy-handed deletion of critical posts. But I'd like to get *both* sides of the story, not just one...

I've always felt that way as well. The sad and ironic part is that you can't do that on FPN. It just isn't allowed to be discussed, as I've been told in so many words by the admins themselves. If they don't want to publicly discuss their own decisions on their own forum, what would you suggest?

I've become sad and bitter about it not because of things done to me, though I felt I've been treated poorly (and I'm not one of those that got banned), but because some very good and decent people got treated in a crude and excessive manner. I have good friends there, but it would be very difficult to take part in a community that condones this kind of behavior towards decent members.

I'm not bashing anyone, nor am I calling out anyone for their bashing. I'm still thinking about the core issues, and why they bother me. Or did.

[aschup]

I have no issue with FPN trying to make money to support themselves. My issue comes from the way they're doing it. They're entirely hell-bent against serving traditional ads and instead opt to go with paid membership levels that create complicated rules. If FPN really does have the level of traffic they say they do, then there's no reason not to serve traditional ads. They'd make a killing!

I agree it is a pretty damn dumb way to do things. Everything related to that classifieds section has been a bit left-of-sensible since I got there and that whole three categories of members had me shaking my head in wonder. But hey, it is their forum - they get to decide what they want to charge. If people dont think it is worthwhile, they wont pay. And they can re-visit their decision later.

I get the impulse to try and capture some of the value of classified sales -- particularly if there's a feeling that a lot of sellers are taking advantage of FPN's size and prominence and benefiting from easy access to a reliably hungry market while FPN struggles to meet costs. I just think they've gone about it in a rather clumsy way. For me the listings from small-time sellers and hobbyists have been a goldmine. I got into fountain pens about two years ago and the vast majority of my purchases have come from other FPN members. The three-tier system seems to disadvantage hobbyist/small-time sellers, to the great benefit of commercial sellers who do little to contribute to FPN or its content. The last time I checked the classifieds section before the site crash, it was just WALLS of overpriced Iguana Sell listings. Ain't nobody got time for that.

[sloegin]

So they want to make some money of their forum? And the guys that own/operate the forum changed their mind on a policy? Umm, maybe I am missing something here, but so what?

In one of the disappeared threads I had a moderator tell me that they were not monetizing the forum, but merely trying to cover operating costs and have the forum become self-sustaining. So lying to my face by an authority goes against reason. To reply to your questions, no problem them making money, no problem them changing their mind on a policy. The problem is they want me to give them $100 a year to use their venue to list 20 pens a month, is frankly absurd. They are trying to sell themselves as the greatest fountain pen forum and want me to buy into that opinion when I have a differing opinion.

I have no issue with FPN trying to make money to support themselves. My issue comes from the way they're doing it. They're entirely hell-bent against serving traditional ads and instead opt to go with paid membership levels that create complicated rules. If FPN really does have the level of traffic they say they do, then there's no reason not to serve traditional ads. They'd make a killing!

I agree it is a pretty damn dumb way to do things. Everything related to that classifieds section has been a bit left-of-sensible since I got there and that whole three categories of members had me shaking my head in wonder. But hey, it is their forum - they get to decide what they want to charge. If people dont think it is worthwhile, they wont pay. And they can re-visit their decision later.

A bigger issue for me is the heavy-handed deletion of critical posts. But I'd like to get *both* sides of the story, not just one (especially when the loudest voice on this side of the story is so emotionally invested in the subject), before forming a strong opinion.

I agree it is dumb and it is their forum and they will do what they want. I and several of the other banned/suspended members offered alternative solutions to the funding problem. They disappeared. Our dissenting opinions were silenced. Also because of their moderation tactics you have to be there as it actually happens to get both sides of the story.

David hasn't been a member at FPN for years he has no current interest in this affair. I think he is just having fun.

[sloegin]

When they unrolled this whole premium membership thing they posted some numbers how FPN is 77xxx(I'm going from memory so that number might be wrong) most visited website and how many unique ip visitors they had. Using the same service they used to measure their site, ebay is 2x most visited website.
Using Alexa.com to measure popularity, FPN is 57,085 at the time I compose this and ebay is at 20.

Currently there are 145,414 items listed on ebay under the pens and writing instruments category, of which 38,504 are listed under fountain pens.

Do you want to give your money to the 57,085 most popular website, or to the 20th? Which offers greater exposure?

Edit to add some info so it doesn't look like I'm bashing FPN but giving a sense of scale to the whole picture.
Fpgeeks is ranked 280,502
Fountainpenboard is ranked 3,776,550

[Judybug]

Hmm. I'm a long-time member of FPN and have always had a link in my signature to my blog. Had no idea that this is now against the rules. Guess I haven't been paying attention. Are blog links a no-no here on FPGeeks? I'm off to re-read the rules and regulations here.

Judybug

[de_pen_dent]

Jon, aschup, sloegin - you guys misunderstand. I am not defending FPN, and only one person seems to have thought that in his hurry to proclaim it a debate. I have no real dog in this fight - I like browsing FPN but if it disappears, I'll somehow survive, and quite frankly, I am way past the days of getting all riled up over something like a forum.

I know FPN is not perfect. However, the way I see it, a forum can have whatever capricious, whimsy, abitrary rules it wants - that is the prerogative of the guys who run the forum. As participants, we can either choose to stay or go. I realize that leaving an environment full of like-minded people isnt easy to leave, especially when it is the biggest one out there, and that can cause bitterness. That is also fine, up to a point.

Maybe it is the way I was brought up, but I was taught to not badmouth others if I could avoid it. Maybe that is why I find some elements of this thread to be exceedingly distasteful - it has nothing to do with FPN per se.

[Jon Szanto]

Jon, aschup, sloegin - you guys misunderstand. I am not defending FPN

I didn't think that, nor do I believe I implied it. I simply spoke to your point about hearing both sides, and the irony that the one place we *can't* hear both sides is the place where all of this started: FPN. I may not care for some of the vitriol, and try as much as I can to contain my own, but given a choice, I'd rather be able to hear and see people vent their viewpoints and raw emotions than have it stifled. Censoring discussion usually, if not always, reaps it's own ill rewards.

[reprieve]

Funny thing, I was raised to treat people with respect and common decency but FPN censured (and censored) me for defending that practice. I think that reflects quite a lot about what goes on there, and I do think it's healthy to have an open, polite discussion about it.

PS: My posting in this thread is not a tacit endorsement of everything or even anything that is said in this thread.

PPS: Hey, where'd my tinfoil hat disappear to?

[dannzeman]

Hmm. I'm a long-time member of FPN and have always had a link in my signature to my blog. Had no idea that this is now against the rules. Guess I haven't been paying attention. Are blog links a no-no here on FPGeeks? I'm off to re-read the rules and regulations here.

Judybug

You can put whatever you want in your signature.

[Sailor Kenshin]

Does anyone else think it peculiar that FPN went offline immediately following the unpopular 'membership levels' announcement?