Paris murders: Europe has been betrayed by a generation of profiteers and hypocrites.

[Flounder]

The Islamic atrocities in Paris today prove that importing violent bigots into a secular, multicultural society does not make them secular nor multicultural.

[Crazyorange]

How are French people handling this? Being so close to nyc, my area was greatly affected by the terrorism of 9/11. Many of my neighbors lived through it. Thus my heart goes out to the French people. I don't know enough on the topic to discuss, but I am more scared of the crazy nuts with a big chip on their shoulders. There's no stopping them.

[Tony Rex]

The Islamic atrocities in Paris today prove that importing violent bigots into a secular, multicultural society does not make them secular nor multicultural.

Spot on mate.

PS:

Should anyone felt like attacking my stance on multiculturalism, try living in a Muslim country for coupla years before speaking out. I was born and grew up in one of those and I got so sick of hearing blaring adzan five times a day and being treated like a second class citizen because of my faith as a "Nasrani", metal detectors before entering the Church, etc. I'd live anywhere but there, anywhere at all. And here I am in a healthy secular west, yet finding asshats telling me about "tolerance".

So please subject yourself to eating excrement before suggesting others to go back living on that diet.

[Cob]

Je suis Charlie.

Cob

[stevekolt]

Well said Tony Rex! I have never had the misfortune of living under Shariah, and I will do my best to ensure my grandkids won't have to either. The folks I see here with that idiotic bumper sticker, "coexist", really don't have a clue.

[Scrawler]

You cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

[mmahany]

It’s a bit sad to see such poor choices of words on a forum built around writing.

What happened yesterday is horrific and tragic and there is no question that religion (specifically Islam) was the motive behind these attacks. However, these were TERRORIST attacks committed by Islamic EXTREMISTS.

I don’t discount the fact that there are a significant number of Muslims that have committed horrendous acts against people of another religion (and in some cases, against other Muslims). However, I find it quite hypocritical to express hatred towards the entire Muslim faith (which accounts for nearly 1 in 3 people in this world).

To compare, it would offend many people if the Holocaust was described as a Christian extermination of 6 million Jews. It’s not an untrue statement, yet we refer to this group of people instead as “Nazis.”

Timothy McVeigh’s Christian faith was the motivation behind horrendous bombings in Oklahoma City. Would it be fair to refer to these attacks as “Christian atrocities?”

The members of the Westboro Baptist Church consider themselves Christians. Would it be fair to refer to their protests at soldiers’ funerals as “Christian protests?”

There are extremists within any organized religion who have a sick and twisted interpretation of how to live their lives. I believe that Political and Educational standards are also significant factors into the equitation. Many of the countries in the middle-east have very poor education systems and their government is a far cry from being considered a democracy.

It may offend some, but there is evidence to suggest that applies here in the U.S. as well. Many of the states in the “Bible Belt” rank among the lowest in educational standards in the U.S. There are also plenty of studies to suggest a negative correlation between Religion and level of education.

In the end, I am not suggesting that Islam isn’t to blame. I’m not even suggesting that most Muslims are good people (I cannot prove such a statement). What I am suggesting is the avoidance of hypocracy if you intend to make these kinds of statements.

If you choose to refer to these attacks as “Islam Atrocities” that is certainly your right. However, it would be hypocritical to correct someone who replaces “Nazi” with “Christian” when describing the holocaust. It would be hypocritical to wince at people who assume the deaths of Michael Brown and Eric Garner were racially motivated. Ultimately, if you intend to make blanket statements about an entire group of people, expect and accept those you receive in return.

[Flounder]

I define the atrocities committed over the last two days as "Islamic" for the same reasons the Islamic terrorists did; murder in the name of Islam is instructed in the Koran, as murder was committed by Mohammed, the Islamic prophet whom they were heard to declare "avenged".

The Jewish Holocaust was conducted by Nazis for the sake of the racialism by which they self identified. Not for Christianity or any other religion. Indeed, millions of self-identifying Christians lost their lives putting a stop to the Holocaust.

The Westborough Baptist 'Church' is unaffiliated and unrecognised by any other church Baptist or otherwise. They do self identify as Christians. Assuming they are the worst of Christian extremists, you don't see even them committing murder. This is because the 10 commandments are plain enough, for those who self identify as Christian in 2015.

Accepted consensus is that McVeigh's motivation was revenge for the WACO seige. Here's his own words (http://www.foxnews.com/story/2001/04/26/mcveigh-apr-26-letter-to-fox-news/). I don't see the connection with Christianity.

Comments about racism, education etc. are irrelevant. While we persist in ignoring the facts to suit a false narrative, innocents will continue to bear the horrors of such folly.

I would remind you that the murder we have witnessed in the first few days of 2015 is specifically instructed in the Koran.
"Lo! those who malign Allah and His messenger, Allah hath cursed them in this world and the Hereafter, and hath prepared for them the doom of the disdained... Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter."

Thus in 21st century Paris can a man shoot an unarmed woman in the back, in the full expectation that this act, the vile murder of a defenceless innocent, will result in a "martyrdom" involving houris in a paradisiacal afterlife.

That's the reality we persist in ignoring. This was an Islamic atrocity committed in Europe by Muslims in the name of Islam. That more Islamic atrocities will be committed in Europe by Muslims in the name of Islam I am certain.

[Wahl]

In 2004, islamic terrorists bombed several trains in my hometown, Madrid, resulting in 192 dead and 1858 wounded. The city was in a state of shock during some time.

And yes, we felt betrayed by our politicians, by all of them. Why did we allow people who don´t assimilate, who do not accept our laws and our culture, to live amongst us ?

[oldstoat]

This morning, driving to work, I heard an interview with a Muslim who felt sincerely that mocking his religion" should not be allowed" he would not accept that in a secular democracy this had to be possible. I was furious, especially as I have seen estimates ( unverified but quite plausible) that 30-40% of Muslims in the UK feel that their religion deserves protection from blasphemy.
NO, NO,NO!
Everything must be free to challenged, and those who can't accept that should find a home in a country that suits them.
For the record, I'm an immigrant, Asian and not a Muslim

[VertOlive]

I can't help but think of the extremely high "Return on Investment" these three men got for their time and effort. 3 guys, a handful of weapons and the whole country grinds to a standstill.

What if a dozen 3-guy cells did that on alternate Thursdays?

[Bogon07]

To compare, it would offend many people if the Holocaust was described as a Christian extermination of 6 million Jews. It’s not an untrue statement, yet we refer to this group of people instead as “Nazis.”


I understood the Nazis were more concerned with racial cleansing in regard to the Holocaust and it was also their aim was to replace Christianity with Aryan Paganism.

What I find underwhelming is the feeble response from the "moderate majority of Muslims" after these repeated Islamic atrocities. Just don't blame us they were crazy fanatics.
We rarely see mass marches by them condemning the fundamentalist extremists actions like ones against Israel (when responding to rocket attacks on their civilian population).

VO - how about Sydney one guy virtually shuts down the city for day and kills random people who just happen to be having coffee one morning.

[Cob]

For myself I suggest that these deranged people concentrate on prosecuting their stupid war amongst themselves (which has been raging for about 1300 years - Sunni vs Shia)) somewhere far away from us.

There is no possible reason why I should believe in their god or indeed any god for that matter, so I take the view that it is impossible for me to blaspheme against that which is solely a man-made invention - Montaigne: "Man is truly mad: he cannot make a worm yet he creates gods by the dozen."

Cob

[Scrawler]

I still have living relatives in Islamic countries so need to address this issue with some care. Although I am not a Christian, I find this quote from the Bible to be appropriate:

Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

[Scrawler]

For myself I suggest that these deranged people concentrate on prosecuting their stupid war amongst themselves (which has been raging for about 1300 years - Sunni vs Shia)) somewhere far away from us.

There is no possible reason why I should believe in their god or indeed any god for that matter, so I take the view that it is impossible for me to blaspheme against that which is solely a man-made invention - Montaigne: "Man is truly mad: he cannot make a worm yet he creates gods by the dozen."

Cob
They will fight each other when there is no external enemy to fight. You raise an interesting point. Blasphemy, of course, can only be committed by someone who believes in it. When someone is not a believer, the concept cannot apply to them. As such it is only a perceived offence, by the person making the claim that it is blasphemy. As such claims of blasphemy are nothing more than an ignorant person attempting to impose their own superstitious perceptions on others.

[Crazyorange]

For myself I suggest that these deranged people concentrate on prosecuting their stupid war amongst themselves (which has been raging for about 1300 years - Sunni vs Shia)) somewhere far away from us.

There is no possible reason why I should believe in their god or indeed any god for that matter, so I take the view that it is impossible for me to blaspheme against that which is solely a man-made invention - Montaigne: "Man is truly mad: he cannot make a worm yet he creates gods by the dozen."

Cob
They will fight each other when there is no external enemy to fight. You raise an interesting point. Blasphemy, of course, can only be committed by someone who believes in it. When someone is not a believer, the concept cannot apply to them. As such it is only a perceived offence, by the person making the claim that it is blasphemy. As such claims of blasphemy are nothing more than an ignorant person attempting to impose their own superstitious perceptions on others.

Well said.

[Willieboy]

Will non-Muslims ever stand up and defend themselves, their faith and their way of life? Or will we continue to appease, look the other way and just hope we won't be beheaded today. Western Europe may well be lost due to weak leaders and the United States will not be far behind, and for the same reason, weak or non-existent leadership. America needs to close its borders to our enemies, and deport enemies who are already here.

[Neo]

Will non-muslims ever stand up and defend themselves, their faith and their way of life? Or will we continue to appease, look the other way and just hope we won't be beheaded Western Europe may well be lost due to weak leaders and the United States will not be far behind, and for the same reason, that is, weak leadership. America needs to close its borders to our enemies, and deport enemies who are already here.


America is a nation of immigrants, but it should be a case of those who choose to come here need to assimilate to the way of life here instead of the other way around. Perhaps it is an issue of those that are unable to make their way in the world need to find excuses and scapegoats instead of rectifying the causes of their own failure and unable to accept that not everyone wants to live the same kind of life.

Just closing the borders is not an answer, we may be shutting the doors on the next Einstein, which would be our loss. I don't think allowing freedom of movement is appeasement, it is holding true to the foundations of freedom dreamed of by the founders. Perhaps better screening of potential immigrants would be a better approach.

[Crazyorange]

Will non-muslims ever stand up and defend themselves, their faith and their way of life? Or will we continue to appease, look the other way and just hope we won't be beheaded Western Europe may well be lost due to weak leaders and the United States will not be far behind, and for the same reason, that is, weak leadership. America needs to close its borders to our enemies, and deport enemies who are already here.


America is a nation of immigrants, but it should be a case of those who choose to come here need to assimilate to the way of life here instead of the other way around. Perhaps it is an issue of those that are unable to make their way in the world need to find excuses and scapegoats instead of rectifying the causes of their own failure and unable to accept that not everyone wants to live the same kind of life.

Just closing the borders is not an answer, we may be shutting the doors on the next Einstein, which would be our loss. I don't think allowing freedom of movement is appeasement, it is holding true to the foundations of freedom dreamed of by the founders. Perhaps better screening of potential immigrants would be a better approach.

My parents immigrated from England when I was a baby. At age 5 I became an American. My dad always said " we are Americans. We are not British. Be proud to be american". Yes, I have a British back ground but mom and dad always made a point to emphasize american traditions. My dad had a lot of pride about coming to American and jumping through the hoops to be a citizen. He felt it was wrong to come to another country illegally or complain how it doesn't fit into their culture.....which has been instilled in me.

There are lots of great people who should be welcomed into usa. They want to join us. But we are over run with many who hate it here and don't care to join our culture.

[Willieboy]

Neo, I agree with your first paragraph, I think. I certainly agree immigrants should assimilate. I am uncertain what you mean in the second sentence of the first paragraph.

My solution to close the border is an extreme solution, no doubt. Please understand two things though. First, I am an extreme guy who cares not a wit for political correctness. Second, I would completely close our borders because I have no confidence, under America's current leadership, we could screen house flies, let alone immigrants. As things stand now, the folks in Washington have no interest in controlling immigration on the Southern border. They are simply counting votes as the illegals flood across. I think extreme measures are necessary because we, the whole world, face an unprecedented threat from Muslim extremists, a threat our forefathers could never have anticipated. America was a great strong country, but we are being destroyed from within. We'd better wake from our slumber or it will be to the detriment of our children and grandchildren. I don't want to see my daughter, or yours, prevented from getting an education, subject to genital mutilation, beheaded or God knows what, because I had my head in the sand and was so afraid I'd offend someone, that I failed to protect her. Regarding Einstein, I'll call your Einstein and raise you two Nidal Hasans. What I mean by this attempt at levity, is that I would gladly forgo an Einstein coming in to the country, if it meant the likes of the Boston bombers, Nidal Hasan and all the other whack jobs would be kept out.

Me thinks we live in a different world now, and our way of life will perish due to our own cowardice and indecision. God help us.

[Neo]

Willie, I meant that perhaps some extremists may see the wealth of this country and feel that it is not deserved as they are Allah's believers and this is (at least in name) a secular state.

I am trying to believe in the inherent goodness of human nature and also that those who mean to do harm are in the minority. I've had the privilege of working in a culturally diverse environment, and have seen firsthand that not all immigrants, or even all Muslims come here with the goal of causing havoc. I ask you to reconsider and not paint all would be immigrants with a broad brush. If not to admit an Einstein, how about to offer an escape to those persecuted in their home country?

I do agree that the borders need to be better controlled, just not closed off. We are no longer at a place in history where the Pacific and Atlantic oceans are sufficient protection. Indeed, since this at its center an issue of belief, wouldn't it be to our advantage to be an asylum for those that need it for political or economic reasons? This would be better protection than any barriers we could possibly build.

[Scrawler]

My observations suggest that Islam introduces a sort of PTSD through its teaching methods, and perhaps its content. It seems to leave people ill prepared for the nuances of civilization. It seems to place stresses on places it moves to and at the same time stifles discussion. What I have found most profoundly odd is that governments behave as if Islam is something special, and that its laws and strictures are more than mere superstitions. They take Islamic offence seriously, punish critics and allow it to be taught in schools. All over the western world a Leninistic Political Correctness model ensures that anyone who speaks true will be attacked on all sides. This is manifestly against the best interests of people who wish to continue building a civilization. It only took a small number of politicians to pass into law, seemingly harmless words, that opened up the floodgates, while they looked forward to huge rewards from the middle east. When multiculturalism was sold to us, they told us all people were equal and all capable of participating in the civilization experiment. Then they shipped untold number of broken people from broken cultures. The benefits of this experiment are increases in security costs and inconvenience, plus we have to pretend to believe falsehoods, just to avoid aggravation.

[Crazyorange]

Once again....I'm no expert no the topic....but I was shocked to hear many french schools with Muslim students refused to take a moment of silence to honor the people killed. Just disgusting. How can a religion ignore how wrong it is to kill people, just because they don't believe what you believe? Why come to a country where freedom of speech is the norm?

There's been much debate in NYC about a Muslim temple being built close to World Trade Center museum. Now I have a better understanding why people were upset.

Muslims will never have a world they dream about. Many of us will never let go of our right to say what we want. The internet can't be censored. Technology is on our side.

[Scrawler]

It is telling that Islam protestors demand that France apologize for making themselves a victim of this attack. Some of the photos in this article are worth a look:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2910126/Muslims-stage-angry-protests-Charlie-Hebdo-s-Mohammed-cartoon-Boko-Haram-terror-leader-hails-Paris-massacre.html

[Crazyorange]

If these Muslims hate democracy...why did they move to France? I'm not asking to be sarcastic. Why immigrate?

[Willieboy]

I absolutely respect Neo's desire to believe in the inherent goodness in mankind. His inherent goodness shines through. For me though, when I consider the actions of radical Muslims, all I see is total depravity and evil beyond measure.

[Scrawler]

If these Muslims hate democracy...why did they move to France? I'm not asking to be sarcastic. Why immigrate?

There is an answer in this article: http://www.torontosun.com/2013/09/26/calgary-imam-to-muslims-go-home

[Willieboy]

[QUOTE=Crazyorange;110428]If these Muslims hate democracy...why did they move to France? I'm not asking to be sarcastic. Why immigrate?[/QUOT
My thought is that they see France's (Maybe Spain, England and the U.S too) leadership as weak and willing to acquiesce to their demands for Sharia law and Sharia courts. They will take whatever the West is willing to give them, in an effort to avoid conflict, ... until we are completely overrun and dominated my them.

[Silverbreeze]

Basically the want to take over the world. And because for the most part they are blue collar workers they do not understand the paperwork an empire generates even when the needs of the slave and untouchable classes are completely ignored.


As I once heard a comedian say
72 Virgins why would I want to teach 72 women how have sex for eternity

[Crazyorange]

If these Muslims hate democracy...why did they move to France? I'm not asking to be sarcastic. Why immigrate?

There is an answer in this article: http://www.torontosun.com/2013/09/26/calgary-imam-to-muslims-go-home

Ok....that's humbling. I've always felt terrorists will stop at nothing.....and they will. I hate this nonsense people create around religion...."my god is better than your God". It's just another religion that controls and suppresses people, rather than lifting people up and having them connect with the good of humanity.

[Scrawler]

If these Muslims hate democracy...why did they move to France? I'm not asking to be sarcastic. Why immigrate?

There is an answer in this article: http://www.torontosun.com/2013/09/26/calgary-imam-to-muslims-go-home

Ok....that's humbling. I've always felt terrorists will stop at nothing.....and they will. I hate this nonsense people create around religion...."my god is better than your God". It's just another religion that controls and suppresses people, rather than lifting people up and having them connect with the good of humanity.

Religions, especially this one, seem to place stumbling blocks in people's minds. These appear to prevent people from reaching their fullest expression of the human form and capability.

[Flounder]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/15/three-killed-belgium-counter-terror-raids-reports-verviers

[Neo]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/15/three-killed-belgium-counter-terror-raids-reports-verviers

There have been attacks by extremists of religions other than Islam. Perhaps my experience is not representative, but for the most part, most Muslims that I know personally are like the rest of us. All they want is a good job that allows them to provide for their families and give their children a fair chance of a good future.
Extremism in any form is undesirable and like the old saying, it's a lot harder to hate a person than a whole group. Perhaps the answer is more contact with others of a different background to see that on some level, most people have are very similar in their goals.
However, you'll get no argument from me that those that just want to harm others or force them to live in a manner inconsistent with their beliefs should not be admitted to the US.

[Scrawler]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/15/three-killed-belgium-counter-terror-raids-reports-verviers

There have been attacks by extremists of religions other than Islam. Perhaps my experience is not representative, but for the most part, most Muslims that I know personally are like the rest of us. All they want is a good job that allows them to provide for their families and give their children a fair chance of a good future.
Extremism in any form is undesirable and like the old saying, it's a lot harder to hate a person than a whole group. Perhaps the answer is more contact with others of a different background to see that on some level, most people have are very similar in their goals.
However, you'll get no argument from me that those that just want to harm others or force them to live in a manner inconsistent with their beliefs should not be admitted to the US.

Our attitudes and feelings are naturally coloured by our upbringing, life experiences and travel. People who have remained close to home, see and understand as such, and may even derive the totality of their opinion from self selected sources. One thing I have observed is that people mix with others who agree with them and read sources that support their forgone conclusions.

[Flounder]

...This was an Islamic atrocity committed in Europe by Muslims in the name of Islam. That more Islamic atrocities will be committed in Europe by Muslims in the name of Islam I am certain.

Since Jan '15 when I wrote the above, hasn't it been hard to keep track? You'd need some sort of live update app.