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View Full Version : Cry Me A Tomoe River (or, Thin Paper Blues)



Shimmershadow
January 16th, 2015, 01:39 PM
I just got a Raymay DaVinci planner, and it uses the very popular Tomoe River paper. I do like the feel of the paper, the color, the way it writes...the dry time leaves a little to be desired, but it's not a deal-breaker. What DOES seem to be a big problem is that I can't seem to figure out the right ink to use on it. Ghosting I can cope with. Bleed-through? Not so much. Even with an EF nib and a light touch, I'm having some problems, and it's breaking my heart. I wanted to love this planner set-up so, so much, and I'm starting to feel like I might have just wasted a goodly chunk of change. I know the paper is thin, it's meant to be thin, and I wanted it because it was thin. I was skeptical on how functional it would really be, but I kept seeing so many reviews of how fantastic it was, and how well it took ink without much issue for being so thin. Now I'm just sad and aggravated, but I'm determined to make this work out somehow, even if I have to use a *gasp* rollerball.

So I have to ask, if you are a Tomoe River fan, what pens and inks do you use on your paper that seem to work the best? Give unto me your suggestions.

cwent2
January 16th, 2015, 02:03 PM
Sorry to hear of your dilemma. I have used Tomoe River paper from paper for fountain pens in the pad and journal form, the only time I experienced bleed-through is when I let a broad nib sit in one place while I was in thought else where and did not realize the nib was still in contact with the paper. I have used Diamine, Montblanc, J. Herban and Noodlers inks with no bleed through. Nib sizes from fine to broad.

Unless Raymay DaVinci Tomoe River is of a different quality, I do not understand why you are having issues.

Laura N
January 16th, 2015, 02:14 PM
I am not a Tomoe River fan, but I do have some of the loose paper which I use for letter-writing. I find that ink seems to show through to the other side, no matter what. So, I either use both sides and live with the show-through, or I only write on one side of a page. I guess with a planner it's harder to use one side of the page, though. The show-through will be a lot milder with an F or EF nib and a less saturated ink.

I'm thinking Quink Blue with a dry fine nib. Or R&K Salix/Scabiosa, which are mild iron gall inks. Or one of the lighter J. Herbins -- lots to choose from there. Do you like gray? A nice light gray like Cacao du Brésil or Pilot Iroshizuku Kiri-same often looks very pencil-like, so I can see that working well. I often use Kiri-same with a fine nib, and it's legible.

I'm sure you'll find something that works; it's just a little discouraging at first.

tandaina
January 16th, 2015, 02:43 PM
I just got a Raymay DaVinci planner, and it uses the very popular Tomoe River paper. I do like the feel of the paper, the color, the way it writes...the dry time leaves a little to be desired, but it's not a deal-breaker. What DOES seem to be a big problem is that I can't seem to figure out the right ink to use on it. Ghosting I can cope with. Bleed-through? Not so much. Even with an EF nib and a light touch, I'm having some problems, and it's breaking my heart. I wanted to love this planner set-up so, so much, and I'm starting to feel like I might have just wasted a goodly chunk of change. I know the paper is thin, it's meant to be thin, and I wanted it because it was thin. I was skeptical on how functional it would really be, but I kept seeing so many reviews of how fantastic it was, and how well it took ink without much issue for being so thin. Now I'm just sad and aggravated, but I'm determined to make this work out somehow, even if I have to use a *gasp* rollerball.

So I have to ask, if you are a Tomoe River fan, what pens and inks do you use on your paper that seem to work the best? Give unto me your suggestions.

That's weird. All I use is Tomoe River paper and nothing bleeds through it. Nothing. Not in my big italics, not when I flex. You get lots of see through, shadow, whatever you want to call it. But I've never seen anything bleed. That's bizarre! I use noodlers, Montblanc, Diamine, J Hebrin, etc. Can you post examples??

There have been posts talking about there being multiple qualities of Tomoe River, not all up to the same standard. I wonder if that's the issue? I use the Hobonichi planner and nothing bleeds through.

Silverbreeze
January 16th, 2015, 03:08 PM
I can make the Hobonichi bleed but it's not easy
If the Hobonichi bleeds everything will

reprieve
January 16th, 2015, 03:11 PM
I'm not familiar with RayMay, but I am quite familiar with Tomoe River. It's one of my favorite papers. I'm really surprised by your experience. I've never gotten any bleed-through with Tomoe River and, like tandaina, I often use very broad italic nibs and I prefer very wet inks. The writing does show through on the opposite page, but it's an unobtrusive shadow and has never been a problem in my Hobonichi diary or in my Seven Seas journal.

If you're having bleed-through issues, you could choose as fine a nib as you've got and experiment with a very dry ink like Pelikan Blue-black or R&K Salix. I've also had good results on poor quality paper with Platinum Blue-black. But I'm dismayed that you'd have to limit your nibs and inks like that. I wonder if RayMay perhaps uses a different "grade" of Tomoe River that is less fountain pen-friendly.

sharmon202
January 16th, 2015, 03:48 PM
Never had a bleed thru on TR paper, any ink. I usually use fine but do medium sometimes. Is it a different source or sub quality TR?

Shimmershadow
January 16th, 2015, 05:15 PM
I will see if I can get some examples up. I was checking it to see if there is any way I could be mistaking it for just average show through, as I'm pretty spoiled for that with Rhodia, but nope, there is some definite ink seepage. The only thing I've been able to use so far is Noodler's Polar Blue, but it would be such a shame to have to limit myself to that. I do like gray, so I may do as Laura N suggests and pick some up.

ethernautrix
January 16th, 2015, 05:20 PM
Count me as another surprised TR paper user. The only ink that ghosted after a couple of, few days was the original KWZ Blue #3 (now reformulated not to ghost and named EtherX Blue), and that ink (my bottle of it) ghosts on all papers. But I wantonly use various inks with various nib sizes without any problems. Must be a different grade of TR paper.

Silverbreeze
January 16th, 2015, 05:24 PM
Who makes/sells this EtherX never heard of the brand :-)

Shimmershadow
January 16th, 2015, 05:57 PM
I may also try ordering insert paper separately and experimenting. The grade may indeed be different. The stuff I have now is the stuff that came with the planner.

reprieve
January 16th, 2015, 06:20 PM
If you enjoy grey inks, try Graf von Faber Castell Stone Grey. It's a drier ink so it shouldn't bleed as much, especially in a fine nib. It's a medium graphite grey and it's water-resistant to boot.

Silverbreeze
January 16th, 2015, 07:42 PM
I second the Stone Grey ink

writingrav
January 17th, 2015, 05:39 AM
I just got a Raymay DaVinci planner, and it uses the very popular Tomoe River paper. I do like the feel of the paper, the color, the way it writes...the dry time leaves a little to be desired, but it's not a deal-breaker. What DOES seem to be a big problem is that I can't seem to figure out the right ink to use on it. Ghosting I can cope with. Bleed-through? Not so much. Even with an EF nib and a light touch, I'm having some problems, and it's breaking my heart. I wanted to love this planner set-up so, so much, and I'm starting to feel like I might have just wasted a goodly chunk of change. I know the paper is thin, it's meant to be thin, and I wanted it because it was thin. I was skeptical on how functional it would really be, but I kept seeing so many reviews of how fantastic it was, and how well it took ink without much issue for being so thin. Now I'm just sad and aggravated, but I'm determined to make this work out somehow, even if I have to use a *gasp* rollerball.

So I have to ask, if you are a Tomoe River fan, what pens and inks do you use on your paper that seem to work the best? Give unto me your suggestions.

That's weird. All I use is Tomoe River paper and nothing bleeds through it. Nothing. Not in my big italics, not when I flex. You get lots of see through, shadow, whatever you want to call it. But I've never seen anything bleed. That's bizarre! I use noodlers, Montblanc, Diamine, J Hebrin, etc. Can you post examples??

There have been posts talking about there being multiple qualities of Tomoe River, not all up to the same standard. I wonder if that's the issue? I use the Hobonichi planner and nothing bleeds through.

I, too, use every type of nib and every shade of ink and have barely had see through, let alone bleed through. Has someone sold you a knock-off?

littletim
January 17th, 2015, 10:30 AM
Hobonichi user here also. Show through yes, but takes a lot of ink to create bleed through.
Really good paper and smooth.

mrcharlie
January 17th, 2015, 12:31 PM
Not all "Tomoe River" paper is the same specification. Read this item (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/8247-Is-Tomoe-River-Paper-Changing), specifically the posts around response 11 or 12, for more information.

Avalona
January 17th, 2015, 06:19 PM
Strange. I use the Da Vinci RayMay filler paper, the packs you can get in 100 sheets, of plain or lined cream paper, for my university notes (as it fits in my Filofax or my Franklin Covey binders), and it's pretty much identical to the A4 Tomoe River sheets I have, or the Hobonichi paper (except, you know, cream coloured). I usually use F or XF Lamy Safaris and either Namiki, Rohrer and Klingner, or J. Herbin inks, and not ever a problem with it. I've never had bleedthrough, even when I space out and leave the nib pressed to the paper for too long. Maybe there is a difference between the paper the binders come with and the other inserts, because I've never had this happen with the inserts I have.

ethernautrix
January 17th, 2015, 08:21 PM
KWZ (Konrad) in Warsaw. I met him at the Poland Pen Show last April (btw, plug for the Poland Pen Show (Katowice) coming up April 11 & 12), and I loved his waterproof Blue #3 and mentioned in on FPN. That generated huge interest in his inks (many inks), so he renamed Blue #3 "EtherX Blue." There are many threads there. I thought I had mentioned it here, but obviously that was an oversight on my part. Oops.

Shimmershadow
January 18th, 2015, 02:31 PM
Blarrrgh. Well, it looks like I somehow might've gotten a bad batch of the TR then...I wonder if JetPens will be able to help out at all. For those who requested, here are some pics of what I was talking about. (And because I cannot seem to get pics to work today, here's links.)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByO_-mog71qDOU5xbTM3eWVlNEk/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByO_-mog71qDUDJuNnUzTWpJMkU/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByO_-mog71qDTnRzUFNYeHFES1k/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByO_-mog71qDdUI4aHdWckVHMTQ/view?usp=sharing

Not life-threatening by any means, but it does mean that my planner is currently not FP-friendly. It might not even be anything other than pencil friendly, I haven't experimented enough to be sure. Inks used were Diamine "Tyrian Purple", Noodler's "mass 54th" and Noodler's "Polar Blue"; pens were a Platinum Preppy F, Lamy Vista EF, and a Sheaffer #5. again, I know that TR is thin, but this is definitely unlike anything I've seen anyone else post as far as their TR experiences go.

sharmon202
January 18th, 2015, 03:14 PM
Technically may not be a "bad" batch of TR but that manufacturer has different specs OR poor quality control. I would contact the planner company and complain if for no other reason than to let them know what you received. If you get a response you will have some clue as to what the problem is and the character of the vendors.
Good luck.

Shimmershadow
January 18th, 2015, 04:43 PM
I sent an email to JetPens' CS, and they're usually quite good about responding. I did try to go through RayMay's site, but it's in Japanese, and the Google translator is not working so spectacularly with it. Ah well.

Edit: the one thing that works so far is my .35 Rapidograph, which also fits in the pen loop. I can live with that for now. I am currently digging through pen pal letters, because I know SOMEONE wrote to me on TR, and I'm going to compare it to what I've got in here now--I'm suspicious because the paper doesn't feel quite as smooth as what I recall. I am also going down to a Kinokinuya Bookstore in the near future, and with luck they will have some inserts that I can check out. I'm on a mission!!

Newjelan
January 18th, 2015, 11:05 PM
Looking at your pictures, it seems that you have a little feathering as well. I've bought TR paper from a variety of sources including Hobonichi planners, notebooks from Paper for Fountain Pens and Nanami as well as loose leaf from other sources. I've never had feathering and only 1 or 2 occasions of minimal bleed through in my planner only. I use wet, juicy, broad nibs and saturated inks. The only bleed through was from a very wet flex pen, using a dark saturated ink and it was barely noticeable.

sharmon202
January 19th, 2015, 04:08 AM
I sent an email to JetPens' CS, and they're usually quite good about responding. I did try to go through RayMay's site, but it's in Japanese, and the Google translator is not working so spectacularly with it. Ah well.

Edit: the one thing that works so far is my .35 Rapidograph, which also fits in the pen loop. I can live with that for now. I am currently digging through pen pal letters, because I know SOMEONE wrote to me on TR, and I'm going to compare it to what I've got in here now--I'm suspicious because the paper doesn't feel quite as smooth as what I recall. I am also going down to a Kinokinuya Bookstore in the near future, and with luck they will have some inserts that I can check out. I'm on a mission!!

PM me your address and I will send you samples to compare.

Shimmershadow
January 19th, 2015, 08:49 AM
Looking at your pictures, it seems that you have a little feathering as well. I've bought TR paper from a variety of sources including Hobonichi planners, notebooks from Paper for Fountain Pens and Nanami as well as loose leaf from other sources. I've never had feathering and only 1 or 2 occasions of minimal bleed through in my planner only. I use wet, juicy, broad nibs and saturated inks. The only bleed through was from a very wet flex pen, using a dark saturated ink and it was barely noticeable.

Thank goodness you saw it too, I thought I was going crazy there for a minute.

Shimmershadow
January 19th, 2015, 08:50 AM
I sent an email to JetPens' CS, and they're usually quite good about responding. I did try to go through RayMay's site, but it's in Japanese, and the Google translator is not working so spectacularly with it. Ah well.

Edit: the one thing that works so far is my .35 Rapidograph, which also fits in the pen loop. I can live with that for now. I am currently digging through pen pal letters, because I know SOMEONE wrote to me on TR, and I'm going to compare it to what I've got in here now--I'm suspicious because the paper doesn't feel quite as smooth as what I recall. I am also going down to a Kinokinuya Bookstore in the near future, and with luck they will have some inserts that I can check out. I'm on a mission!!

PM me your address and I will send you samples to compare.

Sending, thank you!!! :hug:

Silverbreeze
January 19th, 2015, 12:57 PM
Hey Shadow you sure that's TR? It's behaving oddly, much closer to Leauthurrm 1917 (spelt wrong) or the SketchyNotebook paper I sent you

Shimmershadow
January 19th, 2015, 03:10 PM
Here's the link to exactly what I got, where I got it from. JetPens claims it is TR paper in there. Just got an email back from their CS who wanted to confirm that I knew the difference between ghosting and actual feathering and bleedthrough. (Not unreasonable, just frustrating.) They say that they don't know anything about RayMay using different grades of paper for the refills.

http://www.jetpens.com/Raymay-Davinci-System-Binder-Leather-Bible-Personal-Size-Wine/pd/11679

tandaina
January 19th, 2015, 03:51 PM
I find it really hard to believe that Tomoe River paper would hold up to a ring binder. It is so fine, so delicate I just can't see the real stuff working in a ring binder. Maybe I'm wrong but the moment I saw that it was punched my first thought was "that's not Tomoe River."

sharmon202
January 19th, 2015, 04:33 PM
You might send them a few squares of samples after you are able to decide what is what.

Shimmershadow
January 19th, 2015, 05:12 PM
I find it really hard to believe that Tomoe River paper would hold up to a ring binder. It is so fine, so delicate I just can't see the real stuff working in a ring binder. Maybe I'm wrong but the moment I saw that it was punched my first thought was "that's not Tomoe River."

Apparently people have been using it (both home-printed and as the DaVinci inserts--the good ones) in their Filofaxes quite satisfactorily. it's not like it's a full-sized ring binder, it's just a planner.

tandaina
January 19th, 2015, 05:13 PM
Maybe I'm harder on paper in ring binders, but even the cheap school lined paper always rips through for me. No way I could use Tomoe no matter how small. ;)

Silverbreeze
January 19th, 2015, 05:51 PM
I can see TR in a Six or more ring binder easily like Fofax or Franklins not really that shocking

Shimmershadow
January 24th, 2015, 11:41 AM
Okay! So several things happened today. I got the very kind samples from sharmon202 (Thank you Sandy!!!), and I got in some DaVinci refill packs from JetPens. (I also got back the Edison Premier that I had to send out for repairs because I chipped the cap like a big stupid, but that's neither here nor there.) Anyway. The TR from Sandy? WHOLE 'NOTHER EXPERIENCE IN PAPER. It is amazing, truly. I tried a bunch of pens and inks and even deliberately tried to make things bleed through it, and it was like freakin' SuperPaper. I don't know if it's enough to pull me away from my Rhodia notebook fixation for school stuff, but it's become a serious contender for taking over from Rhodia and Clairefontane for letters. I love it. And it behaves so, so differently from the original paper in the DaVinci, I can see why with all the headscratching. Too weird.

Now, the part that I know all y'all wanted to hear about--the refill inserts. I am pleased (albeit boggled) to say that they behave like proper TR!! No bleeding, no feathering, nothing. So honestly, I don't know wtf RayMay was actually putting in their starter sets, but I'm engaged in an ongoing discussion with the good folks at JetPens about it. I'm still using the old paper with my Rapidograph, just because I hate the thought of wasting all that paper, but I'm psyched to get to the point where I can use the good stuff! At last I know and understand what all the fuss is about...

http://www.threedonia.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/young-frankenstein.jpg

Sailor Kenshin
January 24th, 2015, 12:04 PM
Blarrrgh. Well, it looks like I somehow might've gotten a bad batch of the TR then...I wonder if JetPens will be able to help out at all. For those who requested, here are some pics of what I was talking about. (And because I cannot seem to get pics to work today, here's links.)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByO_-mog71qDOU5xbTM3eWVlNEk/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByO_-mog71qDUDJuNnUzTWpJMkU/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByO_-mog71qDTnRzUFNYeHFES1k/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByO_-mog71qDdUI4aHdWckVHMTQ/view?usp=sharing

Not life-threatening by any means, but it does mean that my planner is currently not FP-friendly. It might not even be anything other than pencil friendly, I haven't experimented enough to be sure. Inks used were Diamine "Tyrian Purple", Noodler's "mass 54th" and Noodler's "Polar Blue"; pens were a Platinum Preppy F, Lamy Vista EF, and a Sheaffer #5. again, I know that TR is thin, but this is definitely unlike anything I've seen anyone else post as far as their TR experiences go.


Yikes.

Silverbreeze
January 24th, 2015, 12:16 PM
Shadow
As I said before the SketchyNotebook paper should in no way be better then Tomoe River Writing paper. So there has to be an error in advertising or something

Laura N
January 24th, 2015, 12:29 PM
Now, the part that I know all y'all wanted to hear about--the refill inserts. I am pleased (albeit boggled) to say that they behave like proper TR!! No bleeding, no feathering, nothing. So honestly, I don't know wtf RayMay was actually putting in their starter sets, but I'm engaged in an ongoing discussion with the good folks at JetPens about it. I'm still using the old paper with my Rapidograph, just because I hate the thought of wasting all that paper, but I'm psyched to get to the point where I can use the good stuff! At last I know and understand what all the fuss is about...

I'm so glad you reported back about that. And that Jetpens is working on it, too.

Jon Szanto
January 24th, 2015, 12:47 PM
A big +1 on the photo comment, Shimmer. Glad it's starting to work out!

mrcharlie
January 24th, 2015, 04:35 PM
So honestly, I don't know wtf RayMay was actually putting in their starter sets, but I'm engaged in an ongoing discussion with the good folks at JetPens about it.

If they are calling it Tomoe River and it is quite thin, I'd bet money it is just a different spec of TR paper, and not the one that is good with FPs.

sharmon202
January 24th, 2015, 08:13 PM
I am so happy to help you to get to the bottom of this. Way to hang in there and not get frustrated and give up!