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Neo
March 6th, 2015, 06:03 PM
My thinking is in line with that of jfsisler - no one wants to know the truth. Knowing would only cause people to form opinions, make judgements, and take sides. I don't want that. All I've ever wanted is a fun place on-line where we could all happily geek out over fountain pens while waiting to attend the next pen show. I don't believe that's asking too much and I know it can be accomplished.


I currently have no idea what direction the main fpgeeks.com website might go. What I do know is that if it comes back, it will once again be decidedly non-commercial.


As to the forum itself... I'll say this:


The FPGeeks Forum belongs to the community.


FPGeeks, the name, has been plural from the beginning and that was no accident. I have always thought of all of us as being FPGeeks.


It was not my intention to bring down the forum yesterday. It was an oversight and I corrected the grievous error just as soon as I was at a computer keyboard.


I humbly and sincerely apologize.


And now... to the future.


writingrav suggested a sort of board of directors, made up of forum members, that control the board itself. I support and welcome this suggestion - or anything similar that would ensure I never again lose my mind and block access to the forum.


If there is true interest in this idea, please, someone start a new thread and we can all discuss it there - out in the open and with complete transparency.


Some have suggested financial trouble might have played a roll in the FPGeeks time out. It is not financial trouble. At least, not in the way you would think. I believe I have disabled the donation button in the forum. If that is not the case, please do not use the button. I did not put the button there and I'll have to figure out how to remove it.


The only other item I would like address at this time is Tim Hofmann's beautifully disturbing diatribe. It's based on partial knowledge and much ignorance, but I will say this: I know Tim - and he would have been perfectly happy saying all of that to my face. For that, I salute him. Heck, I'd even hug him if I were at the Baltimore Pen Show. He's a good guy.


Thank you all very much for your kind attention.


I have the pleasure to remain,
yours truly,


Eric Schneider

Taking Eric's suggestion to start a new thread for interested members to discuss the future of this community.

IMHO, any disagreements between Eric and Dan should be resolved by them and if they do not wish to share their private issues, it is their right. Of course, if they do choose to share once a resolution has been reached, that would be very much appreciated.

If there is no one with enough time to take over the responsibility of the forum is found, perhaps we can have each sub-forum managed by a specific member if there are enough volunteers to take this approach.

However, I for one would prefer for Dan and Eric to work out their differences and for things on the forum to continue as they were. That is my best case scenario.

tandaina
March 6th, 2015, 06:41 PM
For me too. Dan did an excellent job with the forum and I would like to see the forum to remain as it was.

For the site? Honestly it wasn't all that useful recently, mostly new of pens I couldn't afford. I would love to see more contributors give reviews of a better range of pens, and cover things that aren't reviews. How tos perhaps.

cwent2
March 6th, 2015, 06:59 PM
More of what SBRE Brown did with the Ink Encyclopedia - Brian Grays segment on nib tuning on the pod cast Etc?

fountainpenkid
March 6th, 2015, 07:41 PM
For me too. Dan did an excellent job with the forum and I would like to see the forum to remain as it was.

For the site? Honestly it wasn't all that useful recently, mostly new of pens I couldn't afford. I would love to see more contributors give reviews of a better range of pens, and cover things that aren't reviews. How tos perhaps.

Yes. The content was becoming mostly just alerts of releases that people already knew about; 'very fluffy', as some have put it. I think a new FPGeeks should focus on publishing interesting articles, not surface news content plagued with ridiculous manufacturer promotional 'information.' I would love to see some how tos (Dan's vintage Aurora 88 teardown is an amazing resource and he should do more of that sort of thing!), as well as more guest writers--experts in the field. Vintage pens were very underrepresented at late (other than Dan's helpful notifications about Gary Lehrer's catalog updates), so I think perhaps having a member of the team more focused on them would be great.

migo984
March 6th, 2015, 07:45 PM
From my perspective, I think Dan is an admirable administrator of the FPG Forum, and by far the most open, responsive and fair of any forum I've belonged to. I have personally experienced, in that other place, the negative & corrosive effect of over-moderation, content control & lack of transparency caused by vesting power in cliques & unchallengeable admin & moderators, & would hate to end up with a governance structure here that could result in something similar happening.

FPG, whilst not being perfect, treats its members as grown-ups, capable of moderating & policing themselves, and this aspect, and the resulting culture & ethos of this forum, is admirable. Long may it continue.

fountainpenkid
March 6th, 2015, 07:45 PM
More of what SBRE Brown did with the Ink Encyclopedia - Brian Grays segment on nib tuning on the pod cast Etc?

Yes. The Inkcyclopedia was very fun! If something like it emerges in the future, however, I think the content should be a bit more condensed...not to the point of modern tech reviews (3 min of annoyingly read script supplemented with useless shots of the product), but to something less than 25 minutes.

TerraNoir
March 6th, 2015, 08:54 PM
From my perspective, I think Dan is an admirable administrator of the FPG Forum, and by far the most open, responsive and fair of any forum I've belonged to. I have personally experienced, in that other place, the negative & corrosive effect of over-moderation, content control & lack of transparency caused by vesting power in cliques & unchallengeable admin & moderators, & would hate to end up with a governance structure here that could result in something similar happening.

FPG, whilst not being perfect, treats its members as grown-ups, capable of moderating & policing themselves, and this aspect, and the resulting culture & ethos of this forum, is admirable. Long may it continue.

I, likewise, echo the fear of a governance structure that would result in a forum much like the others I have found. I have seriously walked away from hobbies because of it. Since not only did it affect the community, but the companies that produced the products. I am sitting cleanly on the fence about most of this. I just hope that the forum remains the same and that its just the actual site that gets "adjusted" to follow the ethics statement. Perhaps more contributors or authors can write various items. Since I know there are many here who could offer such valuable information.

I, personally, found the "promotional" information that was posted and found it useful. Would I have liked to see other "lower end" products reviewed as well. Sure. But if that isn't something he is interested in. Then... Can't make it happen. That is why I think that perhaps those who wish to contribute a review or news should be able to do so.

mustud52
March 7th, 2015, 02:13 AM
[QUOTE=migo984;118839]

I, likewise, echo the fear of a governance structure that would result in a forum much like the others I have found. I have seriously walked away from hobbies because of it.



I am very new here and conscious of possibly commenting beyond what I have earned the right to do, however the above post struck a chord with me.

Potter
March 7th, 2015, 02:57 AM
I think we don't realise what we've got until its gone and this week was a bit of a 'wake up call', I for one have really enjoyed my time here and look forward to viewing the comments every day. I suspect we also get very comfortable with what we've got and don't want change, I for one would not wish to change anything, but I did not realise how much work goes on behind the scenes. I would not relish a more structured approach such as that on another pen forum...

TSherbs
March 7th, 2015, 09:11 AM
From my perspective, I think Dan is an admirable administrator of the FPG Forum, and by far the most open, responsive and fair of any forum I've belonged to. I have personally experienced, in that other place, the negative & corrosive effect of over-moderation, content control & lack of transparency caused by vesting power in cliques & unchallengeable admin & moderators, & would hate to end up with a governance structure here that could result in something similar happening.

FPG, whilst not being perfect, treats its members as grown-ups, capable of moderating & policing themselves, and this aspect, and the resulting culture & ethos of this forum, is admirable. Long may it continue.

I find the pen, ink, and paper reviews at FPN more helpful because there are more reviewers. But I do look here, too. Some of Dan's video reviews are really well done (but those aren't in the forum). I don't really like the swearing and vulgarity here. If you want heaps of product reviews, look elsewhere. But I do check here, too, in a supplementary fashion. And I, too, miss Inkcyclopedia.

jde
March 7th, 2015, 02:35 PM
Jeez Louise, I know this didn't happen because I had to take an extended time away from the online world. I mean, I ain't God/Goddess, right? Or did someone forget to tell me? So much chaos, stress, and drama going on!

This particular thread one seems to be going for something constructive, and thank you to Neo for that. I hope others, too, prior to now took time to email their thoughts to that future email thingie that was on the front page. (Believe that's gone now.)

I don't believe I've time to run a forum or sub-forum. Yet somehow I have an opinion: that the forum might be spun off to be a separate entity if those of us here don't frequent the "main" page. I suppose a poll or survey could be conducted perhaps via email to forum users.

I wish both Eric and Dan well. Neither of them has harmed me, even if the forum went down temporarily. I appreciate Eric's apology, and his humor in suggesting he temporarily lost his mind. He did write, "the forum belongs to the community." Wow. Thank you! What a responsibility for all of us.

I thought Dan was unusually wise when fistfights broke out among us. I've no need to bash either of them. I know nothing of what is really transpiring between them.

I left FPN along with others of you who are here now. I left because of a lack of transparency concerning the changes, the commercialization of the site, and the bullying of moderators towards some very gentle users who I consider pen pals in the truest sense. And so, I may be in the minority among some of you now, that I still prefer a transparency about how a site is run, a non-commerical site (which is not the same as our meager classified section), and non-bullying moderators. That kind of forum, I do my best to contribute and participate in as I've done thus far.

The online pen community has a history of ups and downs. Forums dying, or arguing into new ones... la-la-la-life goes on.

We here at the forum of FPGeeks are a small, mostly enjoyable tribe, and I hope we find a way to continue and thrive.

Peace out,
Julie

Jon Szanto
March 7th, 2015, 03:18 PM
Julie, that is a very eloquent post, thank you. About one thing:


And so, I may be in the minority among some of you now, that I still prefer a transparency about how a site is run, a non-commerical site (which is not the same as our meager classified section), and non-bullying moderators. That kind of forum, I do my best to contribute and participate in as I've done thus far.

Don't be quick to consider yourself part of a minority - I know that I feel precisely the same as you. I wouldn't be surprised in the least to find many others think similarly.

Mags
March 7th, 2015, 03:34 PM
I hope the main site gets back up soon, hopeful to see a few administrative or moderators added. I would like to see Dan as a moderator. I have and hope to continue to enjoy the forum. I did not mind donating to the forum. It must cost somehow to keep it running.

fountainpenkid
March 7th, 2015, 04:22 PM
Is the multi-moderator system (in which a moderator or two is assigned to a subforum) inherently flawed, or with a smaller, 'slower moving' forum such as this one, can it function well? With FPN, the system allowed for the establishment of an overbearing group of moderators and admin, but were there other factors that caused that to happen?

Neo
March 7th, 2015, 04:40 PM
If Dan does not return, perhaps we can all have input towards a system of check and balances? Maybe something like there must be a warning before future posts are deleted, may probation period given to think before canceling an account and a way for members to question a decision. I base these suggestions on how Dan had ran the forum, but if there is to be a change in leadership it's probably not a bad idea to have policies and procedures codified in some form.

I would imagine real world responsibilities would prevent most of us from taking over for Dan, so I reiterate my opinion that it would be prefer that Dan take the reins again.

Drow
March 7th, 2015, 05:24 PM
Jeez Louise, I know this didn't happen because I had to take an extended time away from the online world. I mean, I ain't God/Goddess, right? Or did someone forget to tell me? So much chaos, stress, and drama going on!

This particular thread one seems to be going for something constructive, and thank you to Neo for that. I hope others, too, prior to now took time to email their thoughts to that future email thingie that was on the front page. (Believe that's gone now.)

I don't believe I've time to run a forum or sub-forum. Yet somehow I have an opinion: that the forum might be spun off to be a separate entity if those of us here don't frequent the "main" page. I suppose a poll or survey could be conducted perhaps via email to forum users.

I wish both Eric and Dan well. Neither of them has harmed me, even if the forum went down temporarily. I appreciate Eric's apology, and his humor in suggesting he temporarily lost his mind. He did write, "the forum belongs to the community." Wow. Thank you! What a responsibility for all of us.

I thought Dan was unusually wise when fistfights broke out among us. I've no need to bash either of them. I know nothing of what is really transpiring between them.

I left FPN along with others of you who are here now. I left because of a lack of transparency concerning the changes, the commercialization of the site, and the bullying of moderators towards some very gentle users who I consider pen pals in the truest sense. And so, I may be in the minority among some of you now, that I still prefer a transparency about how a site is run, a non-commerical site (which is not the same as our meager classified section), and non-bullying moderators. That kind of forum, I do my best to contribute and participate in as I've done thus far.

The online pen community has a history of ups and downs. Forums dying, or arguing into new ones... la-la-la-life goes on.

We here at the forum of FPGeeks are a small, mostly enjoyable tribe, and I hope we find a way to continue and thrive.

Peace out,
Julie

Agree entirely!!

Jon Szanto
March 7th, 2015, 05:25 PM
Is the multi-moderator system (in which a moderator or two is assigned to a subforum) inherently flawed, or with a smaller, 'slower moving' forum such as this one, can it function well? With FPN, the system allowed for the establishment of an overbearing group of moderators and admin, but were there other factors that caused that to happen?

My observation: any time human beings are involved, there can be problems. The more human beings, the more potential for problems. The *only* reason for multiple mods/admins on a site this small would be if one person didn't want to do it all. It would be less efficient and a rather unnecessary allocation of human resources.

This site can, should, and has run fine with one person maintaining it. Should it grow much larger in the future, that can be revisited. The best solution still remains the most obvious one to many, if not most, of us.

fountainpenkid
March 7th, 2015, 05:33 PM
Is the multi-moderator system (in which a moderator or two is assigned to a subforum) inherently flawed, or with a smaller, 'slower moving' forum such as this one, can it function well? With FPN, the system allowed for the establishment of an overbearing group of moderators and admin, but were there other factors that caused that to happen?

My observation: any time human beings are involved, there can be problems. The more human beings, the more potential for problems. The *only* reason for multiple mods/admins on a site this small would be if one person didn't want to do it all. It would be less efficient and a rather unnecessary allocation of human resources.

This site can, should, and has run fine with one person maintaining it. Should it grow much larger in the future, that can be revisited. The best solution still remains the most obvious one to many, if not most, of us.

My thoughts exactly.

TerraNoir
March 7th, 2015, 05:55 PM
[QUOTE=migo984;118839]

I, likewise, echo the fear of a governance structure that would result in a forum much like the others I have found. I have seriously walked away from hobbies because of it.



I am very new here and conscious of possibly commenting beyond what I have earned the right to do, however the above post struck a chord with me.

Well this is just my opinion of course. The forum I was on there was seven moderators, that were called the Mag Seven. When they fought, EVERYONE felt it. When you made one of them mad, you got hit with it. If you tried to plead to the other six... That just made things worse. Not to mention that they were way more catty about things than a really bad reality TV show. Should. Governing body be established here, my hopes is those individuals work EXTREMELY well together. Especially since there is no idea of what really happened here. I can only express my hopes for this forum since I have enjoyed my time here. I have censored some posts here in fear of being biased.

Furthermore, the reason why I walked away from the hobbies aforementioned is because they were quite niche. The companies that produced the actual products suffered from the drama of the Mag Seven and others. Since they were directly involved in organizing the shows for them. So prices went up, and not due to the economy. Just because people, like myself, got so frustrated with the community, just stopped buying.

I will always buy pens, ink, and paper from now on. My love shall be quite unwavering. I'm just a touch nervous about it. Hopefully in the coming days more news will come out.

reprieve
March 7th, 2015, 10:17 PM
I may be in the minority among some of you now, that I still prefer a transparency about how a site is run, a non-commerical site (which is not the same as our meager classified section), and non-bullying moderators. That kind of forum, I do my best to contribute and participate in as I've done thus far.

Julie is a voice of reason and clarity once again.

I do note, though, that there has been little to no transparency about how this site is now being run or even about who is in charge here. I don't care about the dirty laundry and the personal disputes--I don't mean that all of the drama should be made public--but rather that Eric, or whoever is now in charge, should make some statement about his intentions regarding the future of this forum, especially, and perhaps even the main site (which I do view, as I've said in other posts, and I realize I might be mistaken in my view, as completely separate entities). Why has Dan been stripped of his moderator status at this forum? Will he be reinstated, or has he been permanently exiled? Will Eric take over Dan's moderating duties, and, if so, will he allow us the same freedoms and will he be capable of exercising the same sort of self-restraint? Will he now be a reliable presence, or might he vanish into thin air once again? I hope that the past couple of days are no indication of the future: the heavy handedness and quick temper that led to a sudden shut down of the forum, without any warning whatsoever, is a bad omen. It has led me to lose trust in this place. I no longer see this forum as a haven but as a fickle friend. It may or may not be here tomorrow, and I--or any other member here--may or may not wake up one day to find that she is on the outside looking in.

Jon Szanto
March 8th, 2015, 12:07 AM
For Reprieve:

https://letmereach.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/loud-silence.jpg

Empty_of_Clouds
March 8th, 2015, 01:26 AM
You can do good deeds all your life and no one will remember.
You make one mistake... and no one will forget.

Cryptos

chojo
March 8th, 2015, 05:55 AM
I've never been any good with politics I always seem to vote for the wrong guy, so when things start going wrong I usually run and hide in the nearest cupboard. But I know since joining this site I've learned, I've been helped, I think I've been ridiculed but I'm not clever enough to realise it. Above all I've noticed that as others have said we seem to get along pretty well most of the time, I can't remember seeing any members ever having a real problem with the way things are done, so for what it's worth if it ain't broke don't fix it. If the site owners or managers or whoever they are have personal issues, fine, pull your heads in and sort it out without making us suffer for it. I like it here I've made some very good friends, people who I can't imagine not having in my life and I really hope to meet some more people like that But I can't if there's no forum. So, that's my two cents, take it or leave it.

Neo
March 8th, 2015, 06:13 AM
For those that have not checked the main site, it now reads.......

Pardon our Dust


The FPGeeks website is undergoing renovations and will return shortly.


In the meantime, the FPGeeks Forum is fun for the whole family. Drop in. Geek out.


so there may be a resolution soon

sharmon202
March 8th, 2015, 06:19 AM
"...left FPN along with others of you who are here now. I left because of a lack of transparency concerning the changes, the commercialization of the site, and the bullying of moderators towards some very gentle users who I consider pen pals in the truest sense. And so, I may be in the minority among some of you now, that I still prefer a transparency about how a site is run, a non-commercial site (which is not the same as our meager classified section), and non-bullying moderators. That kind of forum, I do my best to contribute and participate in as I've done thus far."

Julie, could I ask for further clarity of the bolder font statement above? Not agreeing or disagreeing just wanting to really understand what you mean here. Also, I have only been here, officially, a bit over a year and do not know what level of transparency is possible or might be desired. Maybe some discussion on the specifics of this would be helpful to the community? What exactly would it be helpful, constructive, to see and be a more integral part of?

Reprieve, just a thought regarding your totally justified feeling copied below. The forum came back rather quickly, I thought. That made me feel a bit better, still a bit nervous but somewhat relieved. Regardless of why it did, it did. There was communication going on, a good thing, again regardless. Getting the communication going was key, what was said in the heat of a thing maybe is not so important when we are able to get some perspective, whenever that may be. It indeed may have been errant keystroke's or made in haste and temper. Are we to trust in the future of the continued culture and stability of this forum? We cannot know now I guess. I am hoping Eric and Dan will take some time to think things through what they want to do and keep us all in their considerations and do the right thing for all, even if that is different for all. I have read the many ideas submitted and there is enough experience and will to sustain, I believe. I love the forum, barely looked at the blog (all other parts). I did look at Inkcyclopedia often.

"I hope that the past couple of days are no indication of the future: the heavy handedness and quick temper that led to a sudden shut down of the forum, without any warning whatsoever, is a bad omen"

klpeabody
March 8th, 2015, 06:38 AM
I may be in the minority among some of you now, that I still prefer a transparency about how a site is run, a non-commerical site (which is not the same as our meager classified section), and non-bullying moderators. That kind of forum, I do my best to contribute and participate in as I've done thus far.

Julie is a voice of reason and clarity once again.

I do note, though, that there has been little to no transparency about how this site is now being run or even about who is in charge here. I don't care about the dirty laundry and the personal disputes--I don't mean that all of the drama should be made public--but rather that Eric, or whoever is now in charge, should make some statement about his intentions regarding the future of this forum, especially, and perhaps even the main site (which I do view, as I've said in other posts, and I realize I might be mistaken in my view, as completely separate entities). Why has Dan been stripped of his moderator status at this forum? Will he be reinstated, or has he been permanently exiled? Will Eric take over Dan's moderating duties, and, if so, will he allow us the same freedoms and will he be capable of exercising the same sort of self-restraint? Will he now be a reliable presence, or might he vanish into thin air once again? I hope that the past couple of days are no indication of the future: the heavy handedness and quick temper that led to a sudden shut down of the forum, without any warning whatsoever, is a bad omen. It has led me to lose trust in this place. I no longer see this forum as a haven but as a fickle friend. It may or may not be here tomorrow, and I--or any other member here--may or may not wake up one day to find that she is on the outside looking in.


Repreive, you have accurately articulated the very thoughts that have been brewing in my mind since this issue surfaced. Thank you for taking the time to speak up, and for your transparency.

Julie, once again, you are a breath of fresh air. I appreciate your remarks as well, and would like to note that I have enjoyed the very same qualities you've mentioned about this forum. I have appreciated it so much, that I've been willing to put my money where my mouth is and hit the donate button in order to support it.

BK_Starkey
March 8th, 2015, 06:39 AM
I think, for me at least, the fact that all of this happened over disagreements and anger, is kind of silly.
While I agree with the commercialization issue (one of the reasons I have not visited in quite some time) every forum ends up with issues like this because someone, somewhere, feels that they have the only true opinion, idea, whatever. Someone's ego (and I don't know who and will not speculate on any of it) will always get in the way. It's sad really.
I thank those that started this whole endeavour. When I first started visiting, I could find out all about new info and pens. Then, rather quickly, it seemed to become an expensive site. Meaning that that was the only topic of interest and, much like other forums of similar nature, if you were to say something to that effect, you could be put down and told to shut up (for lack of a better term). Fortunately the latter happened far less here, but the principle remains. Maybe I'm babbling, but that's my $.02.

jde
March 8th, 2015, 08:34 AM
I may be in the minority among some of you now, that I still prefer a transparency about how a site is run, a non-commerical site (which is not the same as our meager classified section), and non-bullying moderators. That kind of forum, I do my best to contribute and participate in as I've done thus far.

I do note, though, that there has been little to no transparency about how this site is now being run or even about who is in charge here.

Yes! Thank you for that. I'm looking for it, too. Certainly, it was here once upon a time, long ago. And then something happened.

But I still prefer to exercise trust and patience that more will be revealed to us. It's not easy, I know. Yet, there has been a stated willingness to have community involvement in the stakes of the forum.

I've been taken aback in other threads by the outrage and virtual pitchforks being displayed. And so I find my trust in the community a little shaky as well. For me, it's not just the Eric/Dan thing, it's how we respond in kind that determines, at least for me, how "we" live on and if I want to be here myself.

If we cannot take on the responsibility of the forum, then it may very likely die. I for one can contribute a few dollars now and then, but more than that may be difficult. I'm not a daily forum person, as many well know, but when I'm here I try to give something of what's been shared with me, or what I've experienced. As well as given small donations in what I can kinda afford.

Each of us who cares has to ask, "Do I want my forum served up for me, or can I take a broader role in helping it live on?"

I like the idea of nominating some folks to participate in the forum oversight, and I can think of at least four people I'd throw into the hat.

Ultimately, we need this Eric fella to 'splain something to us, and open the door to our involvement. That'll either happen or it won't.

jde
March 8th, 2015, 10:11 AM
"...left FPN along with others of you who are here now. I left because of a lack of transparency concerning the changes, the commercialization of the site, and the bullying of moderators towards some very gentle users who I consider pen pals in the truest sense. And so, I may be in the minority among some of you now, that I still prefer a transparency about how a site is run, a non-commercial site (which is not the same as our meager classified section), and non-bullying moderators. That kind of forum, I do my best to contribute and participate in as I've done thus far."

Julie, could I ask for further clarity of the bolder font statement above? Not agreeing or disagreeing just wanting to really understand what you mean here. Also, I have only been here, officially, a bit over a year and do not know what level of transparency is possible or might be desired. Maybe some discussion on the specifics of this would be helpful to the community? What exactly would it be helpful, constructive, to see and be a more integral part of?



Surely, sorry to be obtuse. :) "Commercialization" in the meaning that someone or group is profiting off their goods or services. There are many ways that can occur. I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I'm just saying what my preference is. I heartily support user donations for the forum specifically rather than by pen companies or vendors. The front page/whateverwecallit is a different issue, in my mind, than the forum.

The classifieds, historically, in many pen forums has been the place where pen geeks buy/sell/trade. Among us also are vendors, repairers, and the like. For example, we wouldn't see Stipula coming into our classifieds to sell us something. But Susana of Italia Giardiono might show up to tell us about her latest Stipula sale. (Talking about the forum here.)

Re. transparency: What we've known about FPGeeks has come from the published "Statement of Ethics" which specifically stated... well, read it yourself in the attached PDF link (https://peaceablewriter.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/fpg-timeout.pdf) (taken of the "FPGeeks Time Out"), specifically in the column on the left in red. The fact that the statement was changed without any notification as such, well, personally I find that questionable. But then I miss a lot so if someone could correct me if I'm wrong??

When I ask for transparency it's about the governance of the site. Do I need the home address of the owners of the site? No. I just want to know how the site is run, and then I can make my own decisions about participation or no.

FPGeeks has always had a policy of taking in advertising for the front page, alongside a policy of stating that the advertising shall not rule the front page reviews of pen merchandise. That was part of the "Statement of Ethics." A very high bar, IMHO, and one I applaud.

What I'd like to know: how much does it cost to sustain the forum? Can there be a statement of ethics that governs the forum that may be different from the front page? Do we have enough among us to sustain the forum financially? I suspect so, but don't know without facts. What does it mean that the "forum belongs to the community?" On the surface, perhaps, it might mean we have to pay for it, and figure out how to oversee it? Or, is the consensus that we just want Dan back and let things go as they were?

Money is necessary, clearly, to keep a site going. And I'm in that camp of "follow the money" and you learn who is in charge. If it's the advertisers, one individual, or a community of users, each form has its potential for both corruption and responsibility.

What FPGeeks wants to do with its front page is up to them, IMHO. I'm concerned specifically about that page only in how it affects us here on the forum, however myopic that might seem to some.

I'm sorry if this is rambling.:hippie:

Some of this discussion is moot until we know what, if anything, we will be allowed to contribute to.

--Julie

P.S. Re. the bullying by moderators (which I've never seen Dan do!): I'm against bullying by anyone. But I repeat myself endlessly. :)

P.S.S. If anyone has trouble with the PDF link, pls talk to me via PM to sort it out.

P.S.S.S. Of course just stating my opinions, ay?

eriquito
March 8th, 2015, 05:46 PM
My thanks go out to everyone who is participating in the threads pertaining to the FPGeeks Forum and its future. I have read every word of every post. I'd like to especially thank those who, even under great stress, are still capable of speaking rational thought in calm voices.

First and foremost, let me clarify my motivation with regard to FPGeeks - both the website and the forum. My only vision has been and remains a sort of non-commercial virtual pen show environment where "pen people" can gather, chat, exchange information, share knowledge, hang out, learn, get ideas, and ultimately - bond and feel a sense of community. For anyone who has ever attended a pen show, you likely know what I mean. Sure, there's a large room of people buying and selling and trading (much like the classifieds section in this forum). But over at a table in the bar is a group of people passing around a bottle of ink and describing how it will change their lives forever. Perched upon a group of chairs in the lobby is an eclectic trio, each enthusiastically defending the virtues of his preferred nib width. Huddled around an ashtray outside is a group analyzing, in great detail, the design and characteristics of a new pen just announced by a favorite manufacturer. Fluffing their hair in front of the mirrors in a nearby restroom are Sue and Janet, talking about which particular tea seems to improve the beauty of their cursive writing. Pen shows... are amazing places.

We come from enormously different backgrounds, hold amazingly disparate political, religious, and life views, sometimes we don't even share the same language - but we are brought together by a mutual love of all things fountain pens - and nothing else seems to matter. And let's face it, regardless of our differences, we somehow find a way to care for one another. That feeling of community, that sense of belonging, is what I would hope everyone could experience at FPGeeks.

I should also clarify that I agree: The FPGeeks Website and the FPGeeks Forum are two separate entities. There are people, I'm sure, who would never dream of visiting a forum that regularly visit(ed) the FPGeeks Website. Judging by some forum posts, there are active users of the FPGeeks Forum who were oblivious to the presence of the FPGeeks Website util I so rudely and erroneously forced them to visit the site's home page.

The much discussed FPGeeks Ethics Statement has always pertained solely to the FPGeeks Website. An umbrella-type code of ethics or standards for the FPGeeks Forum itself has never been put in writing. Perhaps it's time for that - you all can let me know.

Never did I imagine that my statement, "The FPGeeks Forum belongs to the community," would be interpreted as "so the community should pay for it." That is absolutely not what I meant and I think my request that the donate button not be utilized should have made that clear. Since day one of FPGeeks and this forum, I have covered all associated costs without assistance and without complaint. From the opening paragraphs of this post you should gather that supporting this forum is something from which I receive great joy and satisfaction. That will not change.

But while I might be paying the bills, little that they are, I do not feel any sort of outright "ownership" of the FPGeeks Forum. As previously stated, the FPGeeks Forum belongs to the community. The community should tell me what they'd like to do with the forum.

For the moment, I see no need to change anything about the forum. Please correct me if I am mistaken. Yes, there's been a change in moderators with little to practically no information as to the whys and wherefores provided. For that lack of information I take full responsibility and you may continue to sharpen pitchforks at your leisure. It will not change the fact that I know I am doing the right thing. I have explained myself and my actions fully to my father, as he was as shocked as anyone to find the forum nonfunctional, and he concurs that my silence is mandatory.

So let's move on. I am currently acting as the forum moderator. As such I have deleted each reported spam post and banned each spam-posting user. Aside from that, the only other change I have made was to remove the donate button. I believe it to be gone but if you find differently, please let me know.

I've come across one post that asked, not to me but to another forum member, "Who the fuck are you?" I felt that question was rude in both tone and vocabulary, but as no other forum member seemed to take umbrage - at least publicly - I took no action.

I've certainly come across posts that were, shall we say, blunt, directed at me. I have taken no action. Rumors of me having a heavy hand are based on nothing but assumption. I realize I opened myself up to backlash and I am standing here, on the carpet, taking it.

With regard to spam, the posts are generally (or always) submitted by a new user as a first (and last) post. We could, I believe, change things so that every new user's first post is moderated. This, as with everything in life, has its pros and its cons.

On the plus side, moderating every new user's first post would unquestionably reduce the amount of spam being posted.

On the minus side, Maryanne.

Maryanne lives in Oberlin, Kansas, and I've been in her shoes. It was not a pretty sight.

Maryanne is in her fifties and has had a lifelong love of fountain pens. She has always felt an outcast for this peculiar interest. Then one day while surfing the interwebs she came across an unknown entity. Something called a forum filled with people who called themselves fountain pen geeks. Browsing through the chapters (she didn't know they were called threads), she began to realize that there were other fountain pen people in the world. When she realized that there were actually hundreds, perhaps thousands, of like minded individuals, she became giddy.

She wanted to reach out. She wanted to introduce herself. She wanted to partake.

She painstakingly figured out how to become a registered user. She jumped through the email verification hoop. She found a chapter where new users could make their debuts.

She poured her heart out. She listed all her pens. She expressed her joy in having found a fountain pen community. She clicked "post."

Then... nothing. She was moderated. Yes, her post was eventually approved and a happy future was ensured, but the initial barricade was heartbreaking.

So, what do we want? Shall we continue to abide a small amount of spam so that the Maryanne's of the world can join the tribe more easily or have we had it up to the proverbial "here" with spam?

I'm going to leave things as they are until and unless a majority of users convince me to make a change.

For anyone who may not know exactly who this "Eric fella" is, I'm difficult to explain. But if it makes anyone feel any better, here are my contact details:

Eric Schneider
7902 Camino Cielo
Highland, CA 92346

email: eric@fpgeeks.com
cell: 909-647-5056

From the beautiful eighty degree sunshine of Southern California,
I remain,
yrs. truly,

Eric

Silverbreeze
March 8th, 2015, 06:00 PM
If the Spam vs MaryAnne is up for a vote

I vote for new member can post without mods needing to work hard as long as the Spam report function is working

You may of noticed we sometimes are in the mood to poke fun at spam here

lsmith42
March 8th, 2015, 06:04 PM
...

eriquito
March 8th, 2015, 06:06 PM
You may of noticed we sometimes are in the mood to poke fun at spam here

I have noticed that. Seems almost like a separate hobby =)

Wouldn't want to take that away from anybody.

eriquito
March 8th, 2015, 06:08 PM
In what way was the forum nonfunctional? It was perfectly functional until it wasn't.

And you were completely understandably until you weren't.

Ball. Your court.

lsmith42
March 8th, 2015, 06:15 PM
...

fountainpenkid
March 8th, 2015, 06:29 PM
The much discussed FPGeeks Ethics Statement has always pertained solely to the FPGeeks Website. An umbrella-type code of ethics or standards for the FPGeeks Forum itself has never been put in writing. Perhaps it's time for that - you all can let me know.
I think stated rules should be kept at a minimum in all cases. I don't think there have been many instances of ethical misconduct here (except in occasions like this one, which have nothing to do with the purpose of the site), and in this way a 'set rule' only would stifle people's interest and reduce the feeling of open communication, something I believe you to understand well based from what you said about Maryanne.

Jamerelbe
March 8th, 2015, 06:43 PM
I think this may be my first or second post on the FPGeeks forum - I was a very frequent visitor to the main website [I think I consumed pretty much every podcast and video, and a fair few of the reviews!], but not so much these forum pages, until the closure of the former forced me over here to find out what was going on.

I find this whole scenario deeply disappointing - not knowing what's going on behind the scenes, I can only hope that the 'players' are willing to find whatever degree of reconciliation and/or accommodation is possible. I also wish the original 'time-out' message had been a little less inflammatory - it may not have been intended that way, but it's how it came across to me. As uninformative as it is, I think the current splash screen does a better job of informing us that the site is down, without pointing fingers.

Eric, I accept that you (and Dan, and any others involved) may not feel it's appropriate to disclose what's transpired out of our line of sight. I appreciate your partial explanation for the action you've taken. I've never met Dan, but had a few interactions with him via email (I was thinking about a custom ground nib, would you believe?), and found him very approachable - so it makes me sad that that (on the face of it) there's little likelihood the two of you can contribute together to the revitalising of the FPGeeks 'brand'. I would love to see the FPGeeks main site rebuilt, incorporating as much of the old as possible - and in such a way as to encourage a flesh 'flowering' of informative content. I don't know if it's going to be possible for such a vision to arise from the ashes of the old - but I guess time will tell.

In answer to lsmith42's question, I don't think Eric has any issues with the forum - it was taken down inadvertently when the main site was switched off (collateral damage?), and reactivated as soon as he became aware of the problem. The forum was perfectly functional until it became nonfunctional (i.e. was switched off) - and is perfectly functional again now.

Laura N
March 8th, 2015, 06:47 PM
I've come across one post that asked, not to me but to another forum member, "Who the fuck are you?" I felt that question was rude in both tone and vocabulary, but as no other forum member seemed to take umbrage - at least publicly - I took no action.

Thank you for your post.

About this quoted part, can I stick my neck out and say that I think that's the sort of directness we're used to here. I mean, yes, blunt, and not language you'd use to your grandmother, but not calling names. And let's remember the context: that comment was in response to someone complaining about Dan, a person the community here is pretty fond of. I felt the original post starting the thread was rude, actually. If an OP dishes it out, he or she probably should expect to take it. So I'm glad you sat back on this one. I am glad you didn't censor (or moderate) either the original post or this response.

If we're talking about the future of the forum, it hasn't historically been a place where moderators take action on posts on the grounds of rudeness. I think the members sort of self-police. It's more an arena or marketplace of competing ideas -- more Roman forum than nanny state. Now, some people no doubt feel more comfortable in a highly moderated environment. Possibly these days, you would. :) And it's to your credit you are being so open to challenging posts, just like Dan has been. But there's already a forum that's highly moderated. FPG has been filling a different niche, and I hope it stays there.

I try to be careful with word choice when I type. But it doesn't bother me to read adult language here. To the contrary. Sometimes, as in that post you quoted, it makes my day.

mustud52
March 8th, 2015, 06:51 PM
Eric, I am one of those who had been unaware of the main FP Geeks webpage. By all accounts there were good things there. Will this resource become once again available?

jde
March 8th, 2015, 07:03 PM
For those of us (me among them) who for one reason or another can't get to pen shows, a friendly forum is the best we got.

Thank you for reading through all the posts. (I couldn't.) And thanks for clarifying the future of the forum.

I am bouyed by your post. I hope others are as well.

—Julie



So, what do we want? Shall we continue to abide a small amount of spam so that the Maryanne's of the world can join the tribe more easily or have we had it up to the proverbial "here" with spam?


I've never been put off by a forum that moderated my first post. But making fun of spammers is not my hobby.

reprieve
March 8th, 2015, 07:14 PM
Eric, first off, let me say thank you for making that post. I appreciate your effort to address our questions and for reading through all of our comments. This is exactly what I meant earlier when I said that I hoped for transparency and that I hoped that you would make some sort of statement about what your vision for the future of the community is. Your description of the camaraderie and the lifelong friendships that develop organically at pen shows is apt and is certainly something valuable and worthwhile to aspire to recreate online. At least thus far, I think the FPGeeks Forum has done a better job than others of tapping into that pen show spirit (though I've got to acknowledge that David Isaacson's Fountain Pen Board is also excellent in this regard, especially if you're into vintage pens). And, of course, I'm very happy to hear that you want to allow the community to retain its autonomy and self-determination.


Never did I imagine that my statement, "The FPGeeks Forum belongs to the community," would be interpreted as "so the community should pay for it." That is absolutely not what I meant and I think my request that the donate button not be utilized should have made that clear. Since day one of FPGeeks and this forum, I have covered all associated costs without assistance and without complaint. From the opening paragraphs of this post you should gather that supporting this forum is something from which I receive great joy and satisfaction. That will not change.

I can't help but wonder: If you've been funding this venture all along, why was the "donate" button put out there in the first place, and where, exactly, did our donations go when we contributed to the forum financially? I maintain hope that there was no wrongdoing in this regard and that any indication otherwise is mere speculation and rumor.


I've come across one post that asked, not to me but to another forum member, "Who the fuck are you?" I felt that question was rude in both tone and vocabulary, but as no other forum member seemed to take umbrage - at least publicly - I took no action.

I've certainly come across posts that were, shall we say, blunt, directed at me. I have taken no action. Rumors of me having a heavy hand are based on nothing but assumption. I realize I opened myself up to backlash and I am standing here, on the carpet, taking it.

Thank you, also, for not censoring or moderating those posts. We are generally pretty good at self-policing. If someone is inordinately rude, that person is usually called out for it. In that particular case, I think the "Who the fuck are you?" question was responding in kind to another member whose other posts in that thread were speculative and, well, not very kind. Not the best response, perhaps, but I'm glad that those feelings could be expressed.

The great thing about this forum is that we treat each other like adults. Not all members are always respectful, but most people around here usually are, and the freedom to say what we think and feel without fear of administrative reprisal is worth the occasional insult. I value that openness more than I can adequately express.


With regard to spam, the posts are generally (or always) submitted by a new user as a first (and last) post. We could, I believe, change things so that every new user's first post is moderated. This, as with everything in life, has its pros and its cons.

I would vote that first posts not be automatically moderated. The story of Maryanne illustrates the point well. And, as others have noted, poking fun at spam can provide us with some levity--which, in the past few days, has been sorely needed around here.

jde
March 8th, 2015, 07:28 PM
I can't help but wonder: If you've been funding this venture all along, why was the "donate" button put out there in the first place, and where, exactly, did our donations go when we contributed to the forum financially? I maintain hope that there was no wrongdoing in this regard and that any indication otherwise is mere speculation and rumor.


A very important question, Jen. Appreciate your voicing it for us.

fountainpenkid
March 8th, 2015, 07:33 PM
deleted to prevent further speculation.

Laura N
March 8th, 2015, 08:24 PM
I can't help but wonder: If you've been funding this venture all along, why was the "donate" button put out there in the first place, and where, exactly, did our donations go when we contributed to the forum financially? I maintain hope that there was no wrongdoing in this regard and that any indication otherwise is mere speculation and rumor.


A very important question, Jen. Appreciate your voicing it for us.

This was somewhat discussed on a FB thread about all this. Lisa Anderson:
"That PayPal donate button was not put there by Eric, as he said in his FPGeeks forum post last night. The donate button was supposedly for hosting fees, increased bandwidth charges etc. the problem with that? The payments went to a personal paypal account, not an FPGeeks account. The bigger problem with that? Eric hosts the site and pays for any/all associated website costs. At least 89 sweet thoughtful caring generous people who donated over $1500 should be asking where did that money go? Here's a hint - Eric had never received a dime. And the kicker? Ask who also hosts dans personal website. Eric did NOT take down that site when FPGeeks went dark, he did not make it a personal vendetta. Ask how much Dan pays for the hosting and other fees for his personal site."
Make of it what you will...

I just really think people should be very careful here. I think republishing potentially harmful allegations is very unwise. None of us knows the whole story except the two principals. We are talking about people's reputation here. Let's just stop this line of discussion. Please.

I'm one who donated. I don't remember anything ever being said about increased bandwith or web hosting fees -- perhaps she's mistaking Dan's contribution button with Wim's FPN contribution requests, which I recall he always says is because of how expensive FPN is to host. I've donated to both sites, and this is my memory. What I remember about Dan's contribution button was that it said something like "Support Fountain Pen Geeks" or something vague like that. I donated assuming it was going to Dan, who was running FPG, at least as it appeared to me.

If Lisa Anderson, as quoted, is claiming that Eric should have gotten some or all of the money, I think that could be a fair question, legally, but that depends on what their arrangement was. Were they partners? Boss and employee? Was Eric even involved with the website at that time? We don't know the facts. We therefore can't speculate. So let's not do so publicly.

Eric has just said an hour ago -- to his great credit -- that he pays the fees willingly. "I have covered all associated costs without assistance and without complaint. From the opening paragraphs of this post you should gather that supporting this forum is something from which I receive great joy and satisfaction. That will not change." That sure sounds like "I don't want the money." Does he know that someone is making these other statements, because these seem to come from a different place, where it's about money. I find that impossible to square. So I'm going to take Eric at his word. He doesn't want the money. To his credit.

I just really, really think that we need to stop fanning these flames with speculation. We do not know the arrangement between Dan and Eric. We have no idea what happened. They can't tell us publicly either. I've been silent on this till now, and this is why. This is harmful. From what I know, these are two good people. So this whole dispute is making me a little sick. I don't want the forum to be dragged into this -- it undermines the whole place.

Again, I donated. To FPN and to FPG. I assumed the money would go to the people running the sites, to Wim and Dan, respectively. It's expensive to run a website -- it takes time and energy. I don't begrudge them. Hear this: I, donor, don't care where my money went. I'm not going to join, or even watch, a tarring and feathering brigade either. Don't Stephen Brown and Gourmet Pens ask for donations? Are we supposed to ask them for an accounting, too? FPN?

I don't want to see people dragged through the mud. I am grateful to Dan and to Eric for the forum. I will not watch this any more. I will now give myself a timeout.

reprieve
March 8th, 2015, 08:27 PM
deleted to prevent further speculation.

I'm not on Facebook, so I don't know what's been said there (or anywhere else outside of this forum for that matter).

I suppose I'm the one who's asking where that money went. The question, to my knowledge, hasn't been answered. I continue to withhold judgment until I know more; given Dan's dedication to the forum and to our community here, I think he is owed the benefit of the doubt.

fountainpenkid
March 8th, 2015, 08:34 PM
Laura, I fully agree with what you have said and think I made a mistake posting that here. My deepest apologies to everyone, especially Dan. It was NOT intended on my part to have a negative effect on anyone's reputation; I just posted it on impulse. If those who copied the text would delete it, I would appreciate it; however I would understand if you choose not to.

TerraNoir
March 8th, 2015, 08:34 PM
All I can say is Wow.... Thank you so much Eric for the update on the status on the forum. That at least makes me feel a little bit better.

As to the items being placed, allegations or rumors, they are a touch unsettling. Perhaps those answers will come in time or never at all. I should hope since it is about someone everyone here has come to know and love. I guess the ball is in Dan's court to say his piece or not. He did say he would.

reprieve
March 8th, 2015, 08:36 PM
I just read Laura's post above.

I want to apologize for having anything to do with the negative turn this conversation took. The question about the donations popped into my mind and I asked it. Perhaps I shouldn't have. To accuse anyone of any wrongdoing is absolutely unfair and was not at all my intention.

I have the utmost respect for how Dan ran this forum, which I think is clear from my other posts, and, as I said above, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. I am unhappy about the way things were handled in recent days, and, while I find Eric's statement at least somewhat reassuring, I still have unanswered questions and am still uneasy about the future. But I'm hoping for the best.

youstruckgold
March 8th, 2015, 08:47 PM
Goodness, gracious - what a hullaballoo!

Every site can always improve, start new things, end old things, change format etc, etc.

If some suggestions or poll had gone up in the first place, none of this slightly angst-ridden conversation would have been necessary. We could have made suggestions, seen some accepted, some rejected and the site move on.

I have been very happy with this site. Very happy. I echo some of the comments by others that the over-administration and rules of that "other" site, is what led me to the good humour that resides (usually) here. That good humour was driven by the two gents we all associate with the site. The name itself "FPGeeks" has a wonderful self-depreciatory tone that says "hey everyone, we love what we are, and we don't care if it's a little dorky". If soul-searching must be done, then let's not forget to start at the vision that gave birth to this site. We are a group of people with a common interest who want to share that interest, share a laugh, and not take ourselves too seriously. After that, the rest should flow naturally.

cwent2
March 8th, 2015, 09:04 PM
Eric

Thank you!

As for moderating a new comers first post, I would add my 2 cents to keep it as it is as the spamer's are being reported and removed.

I too can not get to pen show's and am relatively new to the hobby, this forum and fellow geeks have been invaluable in providing me with additional information about the characteristics of X pen. I have also received offer's from fellow geeks to let me borrow their pen - I can not imagine anybody doing that for anyone anywhere else - this truly is a special place, with special people.

Just for what it's worth I am grateful that I found this forum and would be not be enjoying fountain pens in the same manner with out this group.

Oh and for everyone else - Thank you for making this forum a second home - and answering my sometimes silly questions.

Thanks again

dannzeman
March 8th, 2015, 09:48 PM
As TerraNoir mentioned, I did say I would make a statement, a video, in fact. I've chosen not to do a video and may or may not make a statement. I want to make sure whatever I say isn't fueled by emotion and spontaneity.

As far as Lisa's comments go, well, she doesn't know all the details. Nor do I know all the details regarding Eric's actions, past or present. And he doesn't know all the details regarding my actions, past or present. I'm certain that once Eric and I, and only Eric and I, can discuss this topic, and many, many others, we can both achieve a better understanding of each other's views, feelings, and reactions.

earthdawn
March 8th, 2015, 09:55 PM
As TerraNoir mentioned, I did say I would make a statement, a video, in fact. I've chosen not to do a video and may or may not make a statement. I want to make sure whatever I say isn't fueled by emotion and spontaneity.

As far as Lisa's comments go, well, she doesn't know all the details. Nor do I know all the details regarding Eric's actions, past or present. And he doesn't know all the details regarding my actions, past or present. I'm certain that once Eric and I, and only Eric and I, can discuss this topic, and many, many others, we can both achieve a better understanding of each other's views, feelings, and reactions.

I sure hope so... whatever is going on between you two is just that.. between you two.

I certainly have greatly appreciated your help, advice, support, friendship and deep dedication to our hobby.

Countries have gone to war and later become friends again so I hope to see you guys work it out with care and understanding as many of us were rattled by all this. So many friendships have begun here and so much beyond just pens has been shared as well.

Im sitting back quietly and truly hoping for the best.

Jon Szanto
March 8th, 2015, 09:56 PM
Hey, I'll stand in the flames, if no one else will. I have a Nomex suit and a big heart.


To the members of the Forums of FPG, and to Eric, the owner

I've come home from a day of not one, two, or three, but four very positive events, only to find this. That stuff in red is not a quote from someone else, but that's me, how I feel, right now.

No, I'm not satisfied. For each and every person who thanked our former moderator in a thread dedicated to that function, there is a gaping void. A surface balm does not, in the least, effect a cure on the deeper problems, and the fact that someone who had, in exemplary manner, dispatched his duties and is now summarily relieved of said duties - with no reason given whatsoever - does not fly.

Worse, it doesn't bode well at all for the rest of us. It is a grand "sweeping under the carpet". Been there, had that done, in other forums. Some guy gets booted, no transparency, there is precisely zero confidence the same thing or similar can't happen to any member here. Why? You'll never know, because you can't handle the truth, or some rubbish.

It should be obvious that I am royally pissed, massively disappointed, and completely energized. I have spent the last 3 days or so paying attention to a group of people that I have come to care a lot about, and I'll daresay possibly more so than an owner who abidicates for an extended period. Daresay, I said, because I don't know all the details. There is hubris here, and impulsive behavior, and a complete lack of any thanks for how this forum has been dealt with over that same extended period.

And lots and lots of questions.

Why now? Why no tweaking or even casual attention to any problems at any time in the past? How is it that - BOOM! - someone is offed, and... oh, we should all feel cozy now?

A long day, it's been. This is less informational and more emotional than some of the posts I may make. I'll probably gather myself, hopefully in the light of more information, and make a cogent, reasoned, and planned response to all of this. But make no mistake: I am not placated, I am not satisfied and I am not happy. This is a pen show room where someone has been brutally attacked, and that isn't the kind of pen show I like to attend.

At this point, there is simply no excuse for what has transpired, most certainly in the manner with which it has transpired.

None.

If any of you have read my posts from the last few days, you know what I'm about. You know the kind of person I am, and what kind of empathy I have for a community of like-driven souls. Don't expect any less than complete passion for something as "trivial", as some people have so callously alluded, as a discussion forum. I know full well this opens me up to disparagement. I choose this territory, and I'll accept what comes with it.

And I'm not done.

Jon Szanto
March 8th, 2015, 10:00 PM
As TerraNoir mentioned, I did say I would make a statement, a video, in fact. I've chosen not to do a video and may or may not make a statement. I want to make sure whatever I say isn't fueled by emotion and spontaneity.

As far as Lisa's comments go, well, she doesn't know all the details. Nor do I know all the details regarding Eric's actions, past or present. And he doesn't know all the details regarding my actions, past or present. I'm certain that once Eric and I, and only Eric and I, can discuss this topic, and many, many others, we can both achieve a better understanding of each other's views, feelings, and reactions.

As to the first part, damn! I just made a hyper-emotional statement, so more power to you.

As to the second part: I am constantly and deeply hopeful that the seemingly incoherent lack of communication is ended, and you both can come to terms that are mutually beneficial for the three parties - you, Eric, and the many members of this forum.

My best wishes to you.

Empty_of_Clouds
March 8th, 2015, 11:56 PM
<peeks form behind the sofa>

I find all this very confusing. I don't properly know anyone on this board (as none of you really know, or want to know, me), at least not beyond a member name. So my connection here is practically non-existent. The recent events have no context for me. I have seen Dan the Moderator as having a very light hand, and that the forum seems to run without glitches. And I have seen that Eric the Owner has posted his name and contact details but I still have no idea who he is.

Despite those things the forum has been entertaining and informative and, it has to be said, too often personally challenging (I am quite a bit below the standards of education and status usually seen here). It would be nice if it survived whatever is going on now.

Ste_S
March 9th, 2015, 04:55 AM
Hey, I'll stand in the flames, if no one else will. I have a Nomex suit and a big heart.


To the members of the Forums of FPG, and to Eric, the owner

I've come home from a day of not one, two, or three, but four very positive events, only to find this. That stuff in red is not a quote from someone else, but that's me, how I feel, right now.

No, I'm not satisfied. For each and every person who thanked our former moderator in a thread dedicated to that function, there is a gaping void. A surface balm does not, in the least, effect a cure on the deeper problems, and the fact that someone who had, in exemplary manner, dispatched his duties and is now summarily relieved of said duties - with no reason given whatsoever - does not fly.

Worse, it doesn't bode well at all for the rest of us. It is a grand "sweeping under the carpet". Been there, had that done, in other forums. Some guy gets booted, no transparency, there is precisely zero confidence the same thing or similar can't happen to any member here. Why? You'll never know, because you can't handle the truth, or some rubbish.

It should be obvious that I am royally pissed, massively disappointed, and completely energized. I have spent the last 3 days or so paying attention to a group of people that I have come to care a lot about, and I'll daresay possibly more so than an owner who abidicates for an extended period. Daresay, I said, because I don't know all the details. There is hubris here, and impulsive behavior, and a complete lack of any thanks for how this forum has been dealt with over that same extended period.

And lots and lots of questions.

Why now? Why no tweaking or even casual attention to any problems at any time in the past? How is it that - BOOM! - someone is offed, and... oh, we should all feel cozy now?

A long day, it's been. This is less informational and more emotional than some of the posts I may make. I'll probably gather myself, hopefully in the light of more information, and make a cogent, reasoned, and planned response to all of this. But make no mistake: I am not placated, I am not satisfied and I am not happy. This is a pen show room where someone has been brutally attacked, and that isn't the kind of pen show I like to attend.

At this point, there is simply no excuse for what has transpired, most certainly in the manner with which it has transpired.

None.

If any of you have read my posts from the last few days, you know what I'm about. You know the kind of person I am, and what kind of empathy I have for a community of like-driven souls. Don't expect any less than complete passion for something as "trivial", as some people have so callously alluded, as a discussion forum. I know full well this opens me up to disparagement. I choose this territory, and I'll accept what comes with it.

And I'm not done.

Well said.

What Eric has done isn't very fair - chiefly :-
1. Take the entire site down, replaced the front page with accusations without signing his name to them. Some of them are quite serious - taking bribes for preferential reviews. Then not elaborate on the accusations
2. Have his personal cheerleaders (the Andersons) pop up on forums and Facebook continuing to make vague accusations without elaboration and stir it up.

Some dialogue should have happened before any of this, and sorted out in private. It's a shame looking back on the Awesome Reviews and early podcasts that these two aren't speaking anymore.

If I was more active here, I'd be worried about the furture of the forum. Either the owner either goes absentee for a long period of time, and/or chucks his toys out of the pram again and shuts it down.

reprieve
March 9th, 2015, 06:10 AM
No, I'm not satisfied. For each and every person who thanked our former moderator in a thread dedicated to that function, there is a gaping void. A surface balm does not, in the least, effect a cure on the deeper problems, and the fact that someone who had, in exemplary manner, dispatched his duties and is now summarily relieved of said duties - with no reason given whatsoever - does not fly.

Worse, it doesn't bode well at all for the rest of us. It is a grand "sweeping under the carpet". Been there, had that done, in other forums. Some guy gets booted, no transparency, there is precisely zero confidence the same thing or similar can't happen to any member here.

This is how I feel, too. Thanks for articulating it, Jon. There's really not much else to say. I hope I see you all at a pen show some day.

TerraNoir
March 9th, 2015, 06:20 AM
Hey, I'll stand in the flames, if no one else will. I have a Nomex suit and a big heart.


To the members of the Forums of FPG, and to Eric, the owner

I've come home from a day of not one, two, or three, but four very positive events, only to find this. That stuff in red is not a quote from someone else, but that's me, how I feel, right now.

No, I'm not satisfied. For each and every person who thanked our former moderator in a thread dedicated to that function, there is a gaping void. A surface balm does not, in the least, effect a cure on the deeper problems, and the fact that someone who had, in exemplary manner, dispatched his duties and is now summarily relieved of said duties - with no reason given whatsoever - does not fly.

Worse, it doesn't bode well at all for the rest of us. It is a grand "sweeping under the carpet". Been there, had that done, in other forums. Some guy gets booted, no transparency, there is precisely zero confidence the same thing or similar can't happen to any member here. Why? You'll never know, because you can't handle the truth, or some rubbish.

It should be obvious that I am royally pissed, massively disappointed, and completely energized. I have spent the last 3 days or so paying attention to a group of people that I have come to care a lot about, and I'll daresay possibly more so than an owner who abidicates for an extended period. Daresay, I said, because I don't know all the details. There is hubris here, and impulsive behavior, and a complete lack of any thanks for how this forum has been dealt with over that same extended period.

And lots and lots of questions.

Why now? Why no tweaking or even casual attention to any problems at any time in the past? How is it that - BOOM! - someone is offed, and... oh, we should all feel cozy now?

A long day, it's been. This is less informational and more emotional than some of the posts I may make. I'll probably gather myself, hopefully in the light of more information, and make a cogent, reasoned, and planned response to all of this. But make no mistake: I am not placated, I am not satisfied and I am not happy. This is a pen show room where someone has been brutally attacked, and that isn't the kind of pen show I like to attend.

At this point, there is simply no excuse for what has transpired, most certainly in the manner with which it has transpired.

None.

If any of you have read my posts from the last few days, you know what I'm about. You know the kind of person I am, and what kind of empathy I have for a community of like-driven souls. Don't expect any less than complete passion for something as "trivial", as some people have so callously alluded, as a discussion forum. I know full well this opens me up to disparagement. I choose this territory, and I'll accept what comes with it.

And I'm not done.

Snaps! Well put and well done. This is how I have been feeling, but it would have not come out that way. It would have came out like something Samuel L. Jackson would say. All the colorful four letter words and all. The only thing that is serving as a balm is that the forum will not just vanish out of thin air again. There are probably many answers to many many questions. To which, I have a bad feeling, no answers will come. I, personally, hope for the best for Eric and Dan. Maybe one day they will make amends.

TSherbs
March 9th, 2015, 06:50 AM
As TerraNoir mentioned, I did say I would make a statement, a video, in fact. I've chosen not to do a video and may or may not make a statement. I want to make sure whatever I say isn't fueled by emotion and spontaneity.

As far as Lisa's comments go, well, she doesn't know all the details. Nor do I know all the details regarding Eric's actions, past or present. And he doesn't know all the details regarding my actions, past or present. I'm certain that once Eric and I, and only Eric and I, can discuss this topic, and many, many others, we can both achieve a better understanding of each other's views, feelings, and reactions.

I sure hope so... whatever is going on between you two is just that.. between you two.

I certainly have greatly appreciated your help, advice, support, friendship and deep dedication to our hobby.

Countries have gone to war and later become friends again so I hope to see you guys work it out with care and understanding as many of us were rattled by all this. So many friendships have begun here and so much beyond just pens has been shared as well.

Im sitting back quietly and truly hoping for the best.

Well put.

Holsworth
March 9th, 2015, 07:03 AM
I've been reading all the discussions about this for the last few days, and I agree with a lot of points that people have raised.

I've only been a member here since mid last year, but I've made some good friends here and it's definitely one of my Internet homes. My entire knowledge of fpgeeks is of Dan running the show. I've barely spoken to him in that time, I couldn't even really call him an acquaintance, let alone a friend, but I admired the way the forum is run. I've been a member of many fora, administered a couple, even co-run one. This is the best managed forum I've ever been part of, and that is thanks to Dan. My opinion, for what it's worth, is that I'd like Dan to carry on doing that. Whether or not that's possible I don't know, and I don't care to speculate on the details. Just my opinion.

As for the main site, I haven't spent a huge amount of time on it, but glanced every now and then. Reviews have been helpful when I've been looking up a specific pen, but I've never just browsed. As with the forum, I thought that was a solo Dan show too. I've only heard of Eric since I logged on to find that time out message, and Dan was kind enough to tell a few of us on Instagram that Eric had taken it down without his knowledge. With regards to its future direction, I would of course like to see it continue. To keep it regularly up to date, maybe forum members could contribute reviews of pens/inks/papers etc, in a specific site format, with minimum photo quality specified or similar. I've been a member of a site (not fp related) that was entirely made of user submissions, it was very successful. I think the website has/had valuable content, and if I'm googling something I'll always click on a FPG link before a FPN one. Personally, I have no issue with a commercial aspect to the site, be it advertising (if relevant), sales or whatever. As long as the content is unbiased.

I won't be "picking sides", though I do wish the not so subtle accusations of wrong doing would stop. Either be completely open and transparent with what's going on and let us make up our own minds, or say nothing at all. Of course certain Facebook posts mentioned previously aren't helping in that regard, and those people should stop spreading rumours, or implying that they know all the details (whether they do or not). Any information needs to come from Eric or Dan themselves, not a third party.

Holsworth
March 9th, 2015, 07:03 AM
Well, that turned out longer than I intended it to be. Oops!

jde
March 9th, 2015, 07:24 AM
Certainly I feel I've underestimated the sense of betrayal among many of my friends and acquaintances here.

I accept that on the one hand Dan has been a good moderator here setting a decent tone, and also accept that Eric has posted with kindness and clarity over his ownership of the forum (and that some of you disagree that there's clarity). I accept his silence on the "matter" whatever it is.

I hold no malice towards either of them. Yet to use a bad analogy, perhaps: when "divorce" happens it always effects more than the couple. This will change some of us. It has me, a little bit.

I feel for the confusion of new folks, and would like to trust that we continue to be warm and welcoming, and share the pen camaraderie.

I ask my friends to remember that while some of us may sit in the quiet corner of the pen themed coffee house, we are as invested in this place as the more vocal, boisterous, and/or fun-loving among us.

—Julie

sharmon202
March 9th, 2015, 09:56 AM
I try to listen to what is not being said. While I appreciate The Anderson's business, I think their being in this business is not right, not to the extent of it up to this point. I think it is all going to be alright though, not by faith but because of the discussion and thoughtfulness of all I have read here.

Chris Pen
March 9th, 2015, 11:35 AM
I'm beginning to lose a little respect for the Andersons. Not because they're right or wrong, but because they have their nose in it in the first place. Eric and Dan are grown ups, and completely capable of speaking for themselves.

TSherbs
March 9th, 2015, 01:36 PM
I'm beginning to lose a little respect for the Andersons. Not because they're right or wrong, but because they have their nose in it in the first place. Eric and Dan are grown ups, and completely capable of speaking for themselves.

their noses are just two out of many others with even less direct info who have been prodding into the business

Empty_of_Clouds
March 9th, 2015, 01:42 PM
their noses are just two out of many others with even less direct info who have been prodding into the business

Of course! Voyeurism is about as popular as social criticism, no?

Farmboy
March 9th, 2015, 01:58 PM
STOP.

To start, I am not taking sides. I would say I'm an acquaintance of both Dan and Eric having met them both at the LA show this year for the first time. I'm confident I could pick them out of a line up if needed, beyond that Dan likes Buffalo wings and Eric got married at the show and I found them both to be quite agreeable.

I didn't know there was a web site. I may peek at is on the wayback machine but I doubt it. It doesn't matter to me. I also don't play on Reddit, FaceBook, Twitter, or instantgram so I don't really care what is there. Heck, I barely play here.

The TWO sites (web and forum) went off line for a few hours. Eric apologized for taking the forum down. Sincere or not, it shouldn't matter, he rectified the issue and apologized. I think most of us lived through it.

Now to the STOP part. I see no reason to drag Brian, Lisa or anyone else into what is clearly a matter between Eric and Dan. That Brian/Lisa pointed out the error of taking down the forum (this place) doesn't make them party to one or the other sides of the issue. That they are good enough friends with Eric to tell him he made a mistake merits thanks. Full disclaimer, I've known Brian and Lisa for almost as long as anyone in the Esterbrook game BUT I'd say the same thing about two people I didn't know in this situation.

Seems this place is becoming less about pens and more about who is on who's side. Since we seem to be picking sides, choose me last, hopefully I'll be the odd man out.

/editorial comment

FarmBoy

Chris Pen
March 9th, 2015, 03:59 PM
I see no reason to drag Brian, Lisa or anyone else into what is clearly a matter between Eric and Dan.



My thoughts exactly. so why post this on facebook?

http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/10861-Future-of-the-FP-Geeks-Forum?p=119366&viewfull=1#post119366

HughC
March 9th, 2015, 04:33 PM
I passed similiar comments to Todd ( between Eric and Dan) elsewhere. Still there's nothing wrong with supporting your friends or people you admire, there's nothing wrong with having opinions ,strong views and expressing them.

Like many I think not handled as well as it could have been but I'm an outsider to the internal workings of geeks. Eric, who owns the show, calls the shots and that's the benefit ownership brings. I have the highest regard for Dan and the way he ran this forum ( I only visited the main site once or twice so can't comment on that), likewise I hold Eric's right as owner to make decisions as fair and reasonable.

I like and appreciate Jon's comments, they come from the heart and display true emotions and feelings. It shows how a humble pen forum can become so important to so many, that in it's own right is a marvelous achievement. Likewise the Andersons are sticking by their friend. People that stick by their friends are the sort of people you want around when things go wrong !! It's a good trait.

A forum like this one needs both an owner/administrator and users, both need to be happy for a harmonious board. At the moment the ball is firmly in Eric's court ( having somewhat underestimated how the users might react ) and how he handles the situation would seem to determine whether some decide to move elsewhere. On the plus side I believe nothing obvious will change with this forum and it can't possibly deteriorate to a FPN style mess, nor do I see it becoming as focused as , say, FPB ( okay, unashamed plug for this vintage focused board...). Logic tells me we should wait and see.

Regards
Hugh

rdcalhoon
March 9th, 2015, 04:45 PM
What could be worse than all the turmoil of the last few days?
Here's what: What if nobody cared?

HughC
March 9th, 2015, 04:46 PM
I see no reason to drag Brian, Lisa or anyone else into what is clearly a matter between Eric and Dan.



My thoughts exactly. so why post this on facebook?

http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/10861-Future-of-the-FP-Geeks-Forum?p=119366&viewfull=1#post119366

I think it was one of those "moments" that probably shouldn't have happened so early in the saga, maybe being a bit over zealous in defending her friend.

Regards
Hugh

Chris Pen
March 9th, 2015, 04:58 PM
I see no reason to drag Brian, Lisa or anyone else into what is clearly a matter between Eric and Dan.



My thoughts exactly. so why post this on facebook?

http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/10861-Future-of-the-FP-Geeks-Forum?p=119366&viewfull=1#post119366

I think it was one of those "moments" that probably shouldn't have happened so early in the saga, maybe being a bit over zealous in defending her friend.

Regards
Hugh

Assuming nothing else is being said like that by them, I can accept your reasoning. I do have a lot of respect for both of them, so losing a little bit isn't that big of a deal.

heraclitus682
March 9th, 2015, 07:07 PM
Whatever happens I hope Dan stays in the pen blog and pen grinding business. I was really close to sending him a pen to grind. I've heard nothing but good things. Maybe Dan can go do his own thing and we will have just one more pen resource out there :)

HughC
March 9th, 2015, 08:28 PM
...I decided to consult Spongebob on this issue...

I said "Hey Spongie, what do ya reckon we should do ?"

"Kick ass and drink up Hughie"

17081

"Thanks Spongie...but does it have to my whiskey?"

Chris Pen
March 9th, 2015, 08:48 PM
I'd be doing the same if I had that selection of drink. Nice!!

HughC
March 9th, 2015, 10:19 PM
I'd be doing the same if I had that selection of drink. Nice!!

I hide the bottles of cheap stuff I really drink to the right...

Empty_of_Clouds
March 9th, 2015, 10:50 PM
Oh? I thought this was the cheap stuff :jester:


Edit: Just rolled over onto the UK BBC news site and found THIS (http://http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-31741615). Coincidence?

HughC
March 9th, 2015, 10:53 PM
Oh? I thought this was the cheap stuff :jester:

Okay, I hide the really, really cheap stuff to the right :)

Jon Szanto
March 9th, 2015, 11:02 PM
I swear, Hugh, some day we have to get you over to the Los Angeles Pen Show (or, better yet (maybe) the San Francisco Pen Show). This was outdoors, Thursday night. Loren Smith supplied a lovely Calvados, I brought the Highland Park, and someone (can't remember who) contributed Isle of Jura. Spent the better part of the evening speaking (out of photo to the right) with Paul Rossi.

This is the way pens were meant to be! :)

http://fpgeeks.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=16513&d=1424160628

mhosea
March 9th, 2015, 11:08 PM
She poured her heart out. She listed all her pens. She expressed her joy in having found a fountain pen community. She clicked "post."

Then... nothing. She was moderated. Yes, her post was eventually approved and a happy future was ensured, but the initial barricade was heartbreaking.

So, what do we want? Shall we continue to abide a small amount of spam so that the Maryanne's of the world can join the tribe more easily or have we had it up to the proverbial "here" with spam?


Perhaps this is a feature for some future version of the board software, but I have always wished that there could be a very large pool of established users whose only administrative privileges are to act collectively as a immune system to fight spam. What I envision would be that the spam would show up without delay, but with a click of a button from a member of the spam-buster team, the spam and all the posts and PMs of the spammer would be hidden pending review by a real admin. If only...

Jon Szanto
March 9th, 2015, 11:21 PM
She poured her heart out. She listed all her pens. She expressed her joy in having found a fountain pen community. She clicked "post."

Then... nothing. She was moderated. Yes, her post was eventually approved and a happy future was ensured, but the initial barricade was heartbreaking.

So, what do we want? Shall we continue to abide a small amount of spam so that the Maryanne's of the world can join the tribe more easily or have we had it up to the proverbial "here" with spam?


Perhaps this is a feature for some future version of the board software, but I have always wished that there could be a very large pool of established users whose only administrative privileges are to act collectively as a immune system to fight spam. What I envision would be that the spam would show up without delay, but with a click of a button from a member of the spam-buster team, the spam and all the posts and PMs of the spammer would be hidden pending review by a real admin. If only...

The other thing is that it is very easy to alert a new poster - a first post - that their content will be moderated before allowing entry. I think in this day and time people are not unsurprised at this. Mike's way sounds great, but I don't know if it implementable. The former technique surely is.

Farmboy
March 10th, 2015, 12:31 AM
She poured her heart out. She listed all her pens. She expressed her joy in having found a fountain pen community. She clicked "post."

Then... nothing. She was moderated. Yes, her post was eventually approved and a happy future was ensured, but the initial barricade was heartbreaking.

So, what do we want? Shall we continue to abide a small amount of spam so that the Maryanne's of the world can join the tribe more easily or have we had it up to the proverbial "here" with spam?


Perhaps this is a feature for some future version of the board software, but I have always wished that there could be a very large pool of established users whose only administrative privileges are to act collectively as a immune system to fight spam. What I envision would be that the spam would show up without delay, but with a click of a button from a member of the spam-buster team, the spam and all the posts and PMs of the spammer would be hidden pending review by a real admin. If only...

The other thing is that it is very easy to alert a new poster - a first post - that their content will be moderated before allowing entry. I think in this day and time people are not unsurprised at this. Mike's way sounds great, but I don't know if it implementable. The former technique surely is.
Several of the DragonByte Tech add-ons likely provide some of what you seek. (Note this site uses a number of such add-ons.)

Jon Szanto
March 10th, 2015, 12:37 AM
She poured her heart out. She listed all her pens. She expressed her joy in having found a fountain pen community. She clicked "post."

Then... nothing. She was moderated. Yes, her post was eventually approved and a happy future was ensured, but the initial barricade was heartbreaking.

So, what do we want? Shall we continue to abide a small amount of spam so that the Maryanne's of the world can join the tribe more easily or have we had it up to the proverbial "here" with spam?


Perhaps this is a feature for some future version of the board software, but I have always wished that there could be a very large pool of established users whose only administrative privileges are to act collectively as a immune system to fight spam. What I envision would be that the spam would show up without delay, but with a click of a button from a member of the spam-buster team, the spam and all the posts and PMs of the spammer would be hidden pending review by a real admin. If only...

The other thing is that it is very easy to alert a new poster - a first post - that their content will be moderated before allowing entry. I think in this day and time people are not unsurprised at this. Mike's way sounds great, but I don't know if it implementable. The former technique surely is.
Several of the DragonByte Tech add-ons likely provide some of what you seek. (Note this site uses a number of such add-ons.)

Oh, good. We'll just alert the admin.

Annie
March 10th, 2015, 02:35 AM
As TerraNoir mentioned, I did say I would make a statement, a video, in fact. I've chosen not to do a video and may or may not make a statement. I want to make sure whatever I say isn't fueled by emotion and spontaneity.

As far as Lisa's comments go, well, she doesn't know all the details. Nor do I know all the details regarding Eric's actions, past or present. And he doesn't know all the details regarding my actions, past or present. I'm certain that once Eric and I, and only Eric and I, can discuss this topic, and many, many others, we can both achieve a better understanding of each other's views, feelings, and reactions.

I hope you and Eric can work this out. I want you back as moderator. In case I don't get the chance again, I would like to thank you for an excellent job. You always felt like a safe pair of hands.

Wishing you light and peace
Annie

Mags
March 10th, 2015, 04:25 AM
I thought it over and a moderated first post with explanation for someone signing up is the solution I would support.

Neo
March 10th, 2015, 04:45 AM
I thought it over and a moderated first post with explanation for someone signing up is the solution I would support.

I would like add that since many people just skip over or glance at the boilerplate to put the verbiage regrading a moderated first post in red or some neon color. on the other hand, we are running the risk that the spam will be in the second post.

Flounder
March 10th, 2015, 12:55 PM
I really don't care about whether introductory posts get moderated for spam or not. It seems a trifling matter to dwell on.

Right now, by brain is trying to wrap itself around the concept of summary executions and opaque administration being everything that's terrible about FPN, but fine on FPG - because I can't trust myself with the facts, they would have me picking sides. Better to trust to...?

Guess I'd better go back to my pen (pun intended).

Hawk
March 10th, 2015, 02:11 PM
This will be a long post.
Forums tend to become quasi-human. Humans start it, monitor it and the public follows and participates in it to various degrees, it becomes a friend. When things change, the 'personality' also changes, for good or bad or somewhat in between. Change will happen from time to time. Gradual change, taking into account the thoughts, wishes of the public makes it a good thing in most cases. Abrupt change can be a bad thing when the public is mostly satisfied with the status quo. A disruptive change causes many to take sides based on their viewpoint of the change. When the public takes sides, the personality of this quasi-human changes. It is difficult to heal this disruption and go back to the comfortable old shoes (favorite fountain pen) feeling. We lost, at least for the time being, Dan who did a terrific job moderating the forum ever since I joined. Eric, I believe moderated the forum in the past, has stepped up to make this forum remain a great forum since Dan has been suddenly 'demoted'. The Eric, Dan issue is clearly between the two of them and essentially none of my business. This abrupt change, to me, has caused me to choose sides since I lost that 'warm and fuzzy feeling'. Will I stay or will I quit? I don't know. The family of fountain pen geeks that I read about whether they are selling, giving advice, asking for help and the bantering light side of the forum will probably keep me around. Being an old fart, it won't be the same without Dan moderating or co-moderating again, a huge loss, in my opinion. I will be looking over my shoulder for the next abrupt disruption.
Now I feel better.

pengeezer
March 10th, 2015, 07:54 PM
go away for awhile and life happens. Only way I'll be able to understand what went on is to sit back and wait....


John

blopplop
March 10th, 2015, 09:07 PM
Wow, it's a good thing this forum doesn't have all the drama that that "other" forum has. :confused:

Dave

mhosea
March 10th, 2015, 09:32 PM
Wow, it's a good thing this forum doesn't have all the drama that that "other" forum has. :confused:


I think some are in mourning because of the drama and because they fear we are on that path. I must admit, Eric sent a shiver down my spine when he mentioned the "Who the f. are you?" post as something he might potentially have done something about. I don't like to use profanity in my own writing, but I quite enjoy the directness of expression, the clarity of thought and emotion, that can be achieved when it is used sparingly as an intensifier in adult conversation. I have not forgotten that I promised to buy Jon Szanto lunch for one such occasion.

Jon Szanto
March 10th, 2015, 09:39 PM
I have not forgotten that I promised to buy Jon Szanto lunch for one such occasion.

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb204/EnvoyC/resource/clap_welles.gif

jde
March 10th, 2015, 10:05 PM
I speak partly to the group of us who came here from FPN because we asked questions and were told to shut up.

We disagree about some things, surely. I don't think this situation is like what happened at FPN at all.

At FPN some of our disputes were over money and the commercialization of the site. I'm not against commercialization per se. I'm against people being shamed or called stupid or ignored or banned for asking questions about it, and several other decisions. That's how it was for me at the time. I no longer harbor ill will for FPN growing in the way it has. I just don't participate there anymore.

We don't all feel the same type of betrayal here. I'm not going to stand on the bandwagon to bring Dan back. Yes, on the surface he provided a place that didn't censor us, and that was welcoming.

Eric, you were quite taken aback that we thought help meant money. We do what we know to do. The thing is, Eric, a lot of us are generous of heart. We wanted to contribute to a place that offered us a haven. And in response, Dan put up a donate button to help pay for this place. But ut oh, we weren't contributing to the site after all?

Gotta say, despite earlier pleas in this thread not to imply anything by talking about "the money:" I feel pretty betrayed by that donate button, because it turns out there was no need to pay to help support this site. I'm unemployed on a fixed income, and so it wasn't a lot, but it meant a lot to me to contribute.

Eric will not tell us the details, and, as I've written earlier in this thread, I accept that. It takes a lot of strength to take the position he has. IMnotsoHO.

But what festers at many of us, Eric, is we don't know how long you knew of the changes to the main page, and to the forum, and left us sitting in the dark. I'm trying to let that go, but there's this sense of being patronized, however unintentionally. Just sayin'.

I can hear my wife telling me I've written too many words, and none of them were about pens. And so, okay, now I'm gonna continue to push myself through this, and post about pens, and ink, and all that good rot. And still wishing the best for Dan, you, my FPN outliers, and all of us.

Peace,
Julie

P.S. I still want first time posts moderated/approved.:hippie:

TSherbs
March 11th, 2015, 07:20 AM
.....Gotta say, despite earlier pleas in this thread not to imply anything by talking about "the money:" I feel pretty betrayed by that donate button, because it turns out there was no need to pay to help support this site. I'm unemployed on a fixed income, and so it wasn't a lot, but it meant a lot to me to contribute....
If I had given money, I would feel the same way. I have never given money to a web forum, and that position is now even more firm (even if no impropriety occurred here, the opportunity has been illuminated).

Ste_S
March 11th, 2015, 07:27 AM
If anyone who came here because of the heavy moderation on FPN, you'll no doubt be tickled to hear that FPNs thread on the news concerning this very forum has been deleted :-

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/286317-fpgeekscom-is-taking-a-time-out/

ethernautrix
March 11th, 2015, 08:17 AM
Wow, it's a good thing this forum doesn't have all the drama that that "other" forum has. :confused:


I think some are in mourning because of the drama and because they fear we are on that path. I must admit, Eric sent a shiver down my spine when he mentioned the "Who the f. are you?" post as something he might potentially have done something about. I don't like to use profanity in my own writing, but I quite enjoy the directness of expression, the clarity of thought and emotion, that can be achieved when it is used sparingly as an intensifier in adult conversation. I have not forgotten that I promised to buy Jon Szanto lunch for one such occasion.

I thought the reply to that question (lyrics to The Who's song) was well played. I prefer participating in a forum where such exchanges can be made and not deleted, threads not locked.

jar
March 11th, 2015, 08:37 AM
A few thoughts:

I donated to the site. I have absolutely no idea who got the money or what it was used for but I have gotten more than adequate return over the years just in friendly conversation.

I hope FPG continues but also having run forums myself over the years understand that they evolve into unknown critters and every once in a while extinction happens.

Speculation about who did what and claims that Johnny started it or Billy does it too did not work on the playground and are still not productive.

Tomorrow will come and hopefully present new experiences and challenges.

ethernautrix
March 11th, 2015, 08:38 AM
.....Gotta say, despite earlier pleas in this thread not to imply anything by talking about "the money:" I feel pretty betrayed by that donate button, because it turns out there was no need to pay to help support this site. I'm unemployed on a fixed income, and so it wasn't a lot, but it meant a lot to me to contribute....
If I had given money, I would feel the same way. I have never given money to a web forum, and that position is now even more firm (even if no impropriety occurred here, the opportunity has been illuminated).

Hrm. Seems like a couple of us have made donations to FPG in lieu of paying Dan for repair or nib-grinding services, the donation's having been a suggestion and not a demand for payment for services.

Because of this, I have no ill feelings at all about how my piddling donation was spent. If Dan used it to buy a bottle of Jack Daniels to sip from while moderating this forum, well, then bully for him! But I can imagine that others would feel differently about their donations.

I don't recall a big push to donate (such as you'll see at fpn). I'm not saying there never was; I simply didn't notice. I suppose that if I had donated out of a desire to help a struggling website that turned out not to be struggling, I'd be viewing this issue with side eyes.

It's cool that Eric wants to host a website and forum at his own expense. That's very generous. And Dan did a great job as an admin and moderator presumably on his own for the past couple of years. So. Yeah. Guess I'll leave it at that.

alc3261
March 11th, 2015, 09:48 AM
If anyone who came here because of the heavy moderation on FPN, you'll no doubt be tickled to hear that FPNs thread on the news concerning this very forum has been deleted :-

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/286317-fpgeekscom-is-taking-a-time-out/

Not actually removed, just moved http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/286268-fpgeekscom-is-taking-a-time-out/page-4#entry3295101

pengeezer
March 11th, 2015, 09:51 AM
If anyone who came here because of the heavy moderation on FPN, you'll no doubt be tickled to hear that FPNs thread on the news concerning this very forum has been deleted :-

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/286317-fpgeekscom-is-taking-a-time-out/

Not actually removed, just moved http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/286268-fpgeekscom-is-taking-a-time-out/page-4#entry3295101



Nope.....not there either.



John

sgtstretch
March 11th, 2015, 09:57 AM
Did you log in? I can see it if I log in. If I log back out, its gone again.

Sailor Kenshin
March 11th, 2015, 09:59 AM
If anyone who came here because of the heavy moderation on FPN, you'll no doubt be tickled to hear that FPNs thread on the news concerning this very forum has been deleted :-

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/286317-fpgeekscom-is-taking-a-time-out/

Not actually removed, just moved http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/286268-fpgeekscom-is-taking-a-time-out/page-4#entry3295101



Nope.....not there either.



John

I can see it.

jar
March 11th, 2015, 10:16 AM
If anyone who came here because of the heavy moderation on FPN, you'll no doubt be tickled to hear that FPNs thread on the news concerning this very forum has been deleted :-

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/286317-fpgeekscom-is-taking-a-time-out/

Not actually removed, just moved http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/286268-fpgeekscom-is-taking-a-time-out/page-4#entry3295101



Nope.....not there either.



John

There for me John. Clear your cache and try again.

Jon Szanto
March 11th, 2015, 10:22 AM
Tragedy averted: the world almost lost my "House of Nibs" reference...

Chris Pen
March 11th, 2015, 10:35 AM
Is there any way for non members to see that thread? what forum heading is it under?

alc3261
March 11th, 2015, 10:41 AM
Is there any way for non members to see that thread? what forum heading is it under?

It is in Chatter.

Chris Pen
March 11th, 2015, 10:44 AM
Must have to be a member, I don't see any chatter forum.

TSherbs
March 11th, 2015, 03:38 PM
must be a conspiracy

HughC
March 11th, 2015, 05:24 PM
I note our beloved friend Bruce was taking great delight at this situation. It's nice to know that he remains the same unpleasant person he's always been.

Farmboy
March 11th, 2015, 09:50 PM
For the curious, The FPN Chatter Forum is a restricted forum and you must be logged in to view.

Crazyorange
March 12th, 2015, 11:39 AM
I note our beloved friend Bruce was taking great delight at this situation. It's nice to know that he remains the same unpleasant person he's always been.

I noticed that too.

Woody
March 12th, 2015, 01:20 PM
Late to the party. Been on holidays. I'm a member over at FPN and had my hand slapped one time because I was a newbie, and I'm still a newbie here - but I've met some good people who I like. Every forum has it's own personality.

May I review - as I understand it we had fpgeeks.com which I really enjoyed because of the content. I was led there by Brian Gray of Edison. FPgeeks.com had ethics - those ethics between Dan and Eric. Dan noted on the Geeks site that he would grind a few nibs, and later someone noted that he was a Pelikan dealer. I'm not sure if Dan actually mentioned he was a Pelikan dealer that on the FPgeeks.com site - but if he did that apparently broke some rules on the ethical statement.

Then the site when down for a short period of time. There was an apology for that.

I gather now that Dan is not a moderator ? But he was a moderator for a lengthy period of time and did a great job. He's not a moderator because he broke ethical rules on FPgeeks.com site. But really - does the forum belong to FPgeeks.com - or does it belong to the community. The ethical statement I don't believe brought the forum into play - just the FPgeeks site.

Then somebody asks about the money? Really. Does one really think that donations to this site went to Dan, and it wasn't used for the forum. I'm not willing to go that far - and I don't think it should have been written. And Yes, I was one of those who made some donations to the site, because it was administrated to well.

So - I hope I have a clearer picture, (sort of) of what happened. Hope Dan stays - hope Eric opens up fpgeeks.com again because it was a great site. It really was. Both Dan and Eric have done a great job. I wish them both well.

Quantum Sailor
March 12th, 2015, 01:31 PM
I have no ill feelings at all about how my piddling donation was spent. If Dan used it to buy a bottle of Jack Daniels to sip from while moderating this forum, well, then bully for him!


I have made this same statement when talking about my donations as well. I have browsed through old posts by Dan, not all of them but most of them since I became a member and I never found one that pushed making donations to the board. If someone finds one I'll happily admit my mistake but I didn't see it.

Marsilius
March 14th, 2015, 06:15 PM
I have been so busy with life and don't get to post a lot, but I am always glad to be able to peak in here and see what people are saying and thinking. Maybe I can say something a little useless about all of this, and specifically in favor of maintaining as light-handed moderation as possible.

Loosely defined, the ancient rhetorical concept of ethos is the authority the audience gives to a speaker because of their known character and reputation. The light moderation here allows a pretty clear idea of where people stand on ideas and why, and on whom I would rely as an authority, and whom to avoid in order to keep my hackles down. That is due in large part to the freedom of expression here.

The ethical issues between owner and admin are currently beyond my knowledge and therefore above my pay grade, but the ethical nature of the forum is well defined, and I really appreciate that. I am grateful for this forum and its ethos.

Best to all,

Mars

pajaro
March 17th, 2015, 10:36 AM
I looked at the Chatter entry on FPN. I think this thread is more interesting.

I am not so much interested in fountain pens any more, since I am not working and don't write a lot. Also I have tried all kinds of pens as incited to riot by recommendations of others over the last few years. The pens I used previously were actually better, but the ride has been interesting, and I learned a lot about pens because of this and other sites. I think this and other sites serve a useful purpose. I think the people in charge should just let the sites develop as they may. Tight control and disappearing posts and threads seems ludicrous.

youstruckgold
March 20th, 2015, 02:59 AM
OK. Now I'm just disappointed!
The forum is fine; but I really enjoyed the videos and reviews on the home page. It's been long enough! FIX IT!

johnus
March 20th, 2015, 10:02 PM
Wow, I feel bad that I haven't been as active a reader as I should have been. ( The last 3 months of cold and snow and ice have really gotten me down. Not that it any better; but I did just buy some veg seeds...)
I'll take some time and catch up, it may cure my Seasonal effective disorder!! I hope.

mhosea
March 20th, 2015, 11:01 PM
I'll take some time and catch up, it may cure my Seasonal effective disorder!! I hope.

Doubtful! It seems more consistent with gray skies and short days, if you ask me.

If you really want to get caught up, I recommend starting with the thread on reddit.com, reading primarily the post that preserves the original "shut down" fpgeeks.com page and any post that Dan himself responded to.

Aleks
March 21st, 2015, 12:01 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtGGsMbQez4

maybe this will inspire some movement in the right direction :)

Neo
March 26th, 2015, 09:02 PM
Aleks, thanks for the sentiment, but it appears we would need a whole concert to move things along. I wonder if the current state of the forum and website will be the way things are going forward.

Crazyorange
March 27th, 2015, 05:25 AM
I get the feeling Eric is hoping all of this will blow by and be forgotten. Then one day we will find the forum changed.

pengeezer
March 27th, 2015, 08:40 PM
I get the feeling Eric is hoping all of this will blow by and be forgotten. Then one day we will find the forum changed.


Then again,Eric may have already forgotten............


John

youstruckgold
March 28th, 2015, 02:18 AM
Whatever has happened, Eric please put SOMETHING up! FPGeeks is a tine's length away from losing all relevance along with its humour !

Jon Szanto
March 28th, 2015, 02:59 AM
17528

Neo
March 28th, 2015, 05:14 AM
Thank you, Jon. I can think of other places where that quote would be applicable. Do you mind if I use it?

manoeuver
March 28th, 2015, 05:45 AM
I get the feeling Eric is hoping all of this will blow by and be forgotten.

maybe.


Then one day we will find the forum changed.

Why? I don't think the forum is going to change.

Crazyorange
March 28th, 2015, 06:15 AM
maybe.


Then one day we will find the forum changed.

Why? I don't think the forum is going to change.

I've seen enough in life to be cautious. Of course Eric has every right to change anything he wants, it's his forum. I don't think it's out of his comfort zone to change the forum. After experiencing the site being removed without for warning....anything is possible. Jon is right action speak more than words. For me, that will take time before trust for Eric is regained.

manoeuver
March 28th, 2015, 09:09 AM
maybe.


Then one day we will find the forum changed.

Why? I don't think the forum is going to change.

I've seen enough in life to be cautious. Of course Eric has every right to change anything he wants, it's his forum. I don't think it's out of his comfort zone to change the forum. After experiencing the site being removed without for warning....anything is possible. Jon is right action speak more than words. For me, that will take time before trust for Eric is regained.Fair enough. I'm taking what he said at face value: the forum outage was temporary collateral damage when he pulled the plug on the blog.

Jon Szanto
March 28th, 2015, 10:44 AM
I'm taking what he said at face value: the forum outage was temporary collateral damage when he pulled the plug on the blog.

Agreed. I think the outage was close to an accident, It was the action leading up to that, and the virtual vacuum afterwards, continuing to this moment, that is indicative to me.

Jon Szanto
March 28th, 2015, 10:45 AM
Thank you, Jon. I can think of other places where that quote would be applicable. Do you mind if I use it?

Of course. I just put the text in a graphic, I believe the words are attributed to author Nicholas Sparks.

Ste_S
March 28th, 2015, 11:22 AM
I miss the blog and videos.

I prefer the old moraly bankrupt* version with regular content to the new squeaky clean version with no content, and no interaction with the host





*allegedly

Woody
March 28th, 2015, 10:04 PM
I miss the blog too. Liked the reviews a lot. Always good reading.

cwent2
March 28th, 2015, 10:30 PM
17528

Stephen R. Covey: In the last analysis, what we are communicates far more eloquently than anything we say or do.

Quantum Sailor
March 29th, 2015, 08:46 AM
It does seem that the little then lack of interaction is a pretty strong indication of whats to come. Unless there is something we are missing, which is possible as well.

TSherbs
March 29th, 2015, 10:09 AM
Stephen R. Covey: In the last analysis, what we are communicates far more eloquently than anything we say or do.

Indeed. At the deepest level, what we "are" has nothing whatsoever to do with anything that we ever say or do or think or communicate or....anything material or temporal.

It's important to free oneself from this dukkha.

kaisnowbird
April 4th, 2015, 04:18 AM
Feeling like the last one to the party. :ph34r:
I've been so snowed under at work in the last 6 months that I hardly visited the forum until today (Easter long weekend), only to find out that my favourite forum had been through such drama.

But after reading every post in this thread, I'm glad I dropped by. This community remains a place where people care about principles, and we care about each other (even though many will never meet one another in person). The amount of thoughtfulness and support has been phenomenal.

My high opinion of this community applies equally, and especially, to both Dan and Eric. I trust them both, as very fine members of the fountain pen community, and as decent people.

But the finest among us make mistakes; even the best buddies have disagreements.

We don't throw out our favourite pen because its tines are bent after dropping it onto the floor. We mend it. We consult trusted friends, take it to a pen show or a nibmeister; and after it's fixed and writing better than ever, we cherish it even more.

I trust Eric and Dan. And I know that if anyone has the kind of patience and care it takes to listen and forgive a friend, it's us pen geeks.

All the very best, and missing you both.