Question about VAT for US residents

[Neo]

This is a question for those with knowledge of laws of the European Union (Belgium specifically.) was under the impression that VAT is not required if the item is exported outside of Europe. Is this correct or am I misinformed? Thank you in advance for any insight provided.

[Chrissy]

You are correct. No-one outside the EU needs to pay VAT on purchases

[Neo]

Thank you Chrissy, can you please direct me to a document of some sort. I am unfortunately having an issue with a merchant. He is very insistent he is in the right.

[Robert]

Another American user had a similar problem a few weeks ago. He purchased a Conid and was charged VAT. He was (politely) disputing the charge, but I haven't heard how it turned out. Here's the thread:

http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/10756-Conid-arrived!-Not-a-review-but?p=117628#post117628

[Dreck]

Huh. I paid the VAT when I ordered a bottle of ESS Registrar's Ink. Even then, I thought the price very fair, and I'm sure the additional money barely covered their shipping costs.

[Neo]

Dreck, That may be the case for a bottle of ink, but it's quite a different case for a Conid,and they charged for shipping separately.

[carlos.q]

VAT is a thorny issue in Puerto Rico. Because of rising public debt the government imposed a 7% sales tax in 2006. Since that didn't work out (and the public debt is much higher) now the governor wants to change to a VAT of 16%.

[Chrissy]

I have found this document (https://www.gov.uk/vat-exports-dispatches-and-supplying-goods-abroad#reporting-requirements-for-eu-sales-where-vat-is-charged) issued by GOV.UK, but it applies to all EU Countries. You need to scroll down to the part that is entitled VAT on exports to non-EU Countries.

VAT is an EU only Tax. Non-member Countries are exempt

[Neo]

I have found this document (https://www.gov.uk/vat-exports-dispatches-and-supplying-goods-abroad#reporting-requirements-for-eu-sales-where-vat-is-charged) issued by GOV.UK, but it applies to all EU Countries. You need to scroll down to the part that is entitled VAT on exports to non-EU Countries.

VAT is an EU only Tax. Non-member Countries are exempt


Thank you very much Chrissy, I really appreciate it.

[Neo]

Another American user had a similar problem a few weeks ago. He purchased a Conid and was charged VAT. He was (politely) disputing the charge, but I haven't heard how it turned out. Here's the thread:

http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/10756-Conid-arrived!-Not-a-review-but?p=117628#post117628


Not sure about anyone else's experience but my last message sent on the 11th has been met with stony silence from the other side of the pond. Are there any other US residents with a similar issue?

[Chrissy]

Not sure about anyone else's experience but my last message sent on the 11th has been met with stony silence from the other side of the pond. Are there any other US residents with a similar issue?

This guy can be prosecuted for fraud for charging foreign buyers VAT that he doesn't have to pay to the authorities. If it was me, I would advise him that I would be sending his full name and address details to his Revenue and Customs department and telling them that he was charging US buyers VAT for VAT free goods

[Chrissy]

Here (https://www.gov.uk/vat-eu-country-codes-vat-numbers-and-vat-in-other-languages) is a list of all of the Country codes for VAT purposes. Which one is he using for the USA?

[Neo]

I don't know, I'll ask when/if he responds

[Robert]

Not sure about anyone else's experience but my last message sent on the 11th has been met with stony silence from the other side of the pond. Are there any other US residents with a similar issue?

Have you thought about contacting the nearest Belgian consular office? One of the key functions of a consular office is to promote trade between Belgium and the host country. With luck, a friendly consular official may point you towards "chapter and verse" of the official regs that exempt goods shipped to the U.S. from VAT. FWIW, here is a link to Belgian consular offices in the U.S.:

https://belgium.visahq.com/embassy/united-states/

[Neo]

Thank you Robert, I will try that.

[tandaina]

Yeah, what everyone else has said. US residents having good shipped to the US from Europe can *not* be charged VAT. If you buy the goods in country (IE while visiting) you will be charged VAT but when leaving there are customs offices (in airports) where you can take your passport and your receipt and they will refund the tax.

[Neo]

FYI for those who are interested, I called the number for the Maryland consulate and was told by the person who answered the phone.....well, they may be a small company and may have already paid the tax to the government. It would be a hassle for them to get it back. When I expressed that this response was unsatisfactory, I was given the number to the main consulate in DC 202-333-6900. Then a transfer to the economic dept.(extension 810) where I left a voicemail. No callback after several days from anyone.

So I had my credit card company open a case and they've temporarily refunded me the amount of the VAT pending a response by the merchant. I should have done this in the first place several months ago.

This has soured me on any future transactions with this company and this country but your YMMV. I am using this post as a cautionary tale. The pen is great but the shopping experience was most certainly not.

[Laura N]

What company was it that charged you VAT although you live outside the EU?

[Neo]

What company was it that charged you VAT although you live outside the EU?


Conid

[Chrissy]

What company was it that charged you VAT although you live outside the EU?


Conid

Wow really? That's amazing. They should know better

[Robert]

What company was it that charged you VAT although you live outside the EU?


Conid

As it turns out, you were wise to use a credit card. I would have done a wire transfer to save on the surcharge Conid assesses - - - - and been out of luck on the VAT. Do let us know when the credit card company renders its final verdict on the VAT refund.

[Neo]

What company was it that charged you VAT although you live outside the EU?


Conid

As it turns out, you were wise to use a credit card. I would have done a wire transfer to save on the surcharge Conid assesses - - - - and been out of luck on the VAT. Do let us know when the credit card company renders its final verdict on the VAT refund.


Ok, thank you all for your input.

[Laura N]

You know, actually, I didn't really understand all the nuances here. Once Neo mentioned Conid, I went to the Conid website. It looks like Conid charges a flat fee in euros for each pen. So it seems that they quote everyone a price that includes VAT and they do not remove the VAT portion for non-EU buyers. On the one hand, you're not paying more than you agreed. But on the other, if you are an American arguably you are paying what you normally wouldn't.

It occurs that nowhere do I see VAT mentioned on the ordering form. So I and many of my fellow Americans (who don't pay VAT) probably wouldn't even suspect that some of that price incorporates VAT applicable only to members of the EU. Maybe EU customers would ask first, because VAT is second nature to them, but for us it isn't.

And in my experience, every other EU seller I've used does remove VAT for non-EU buyers.

It's a really interesting situation. I hope Neo fills us in on what happens.

[Chrissy]

It occurs that nowhere do I see VAT mentioned on the ordering form. So I and many of my fellow Americans (who don't pay VAT) probably wouldn't even suspect that some of that price incorporates VAT applicable only to members of the EU. Maybe EU customers would ask first, because VAT is second nature to them, but for us it isn't.

It occurred to me that Conid is fully aware of this, and it looks like they may actually be taking advantage of it.

And in my experience, every other EU seller I've used does remove VAT for non-EU buyers.

Yes I don't know of any who don't either.

It's a really interesting situation. I hope Neo fills us in on what happens.

I also hope Neo fills us in on what happens too

[Neo]

:typing:

You will be the second to know.

[mrcharlie]

I don't see how you are in the right here. Conid never claimed to be charging you VAT. They just charge one price, all taxes inclusive, for everywhere. If you are from the EU VAT zone your price includes the VAT they will need to pay; if you aren't your price all goes to Conid.

Effectively they have one price for the EU + VAT and different price (and no VAT) for everywhere else. That is still "legal" isn't it? They just use different wording to describe it (ie one price everywhere, VAT inclusive if relevant).

FWIW, I have no affiliation with Conid, not even as a customer or online friend with anyone from there.

[Chrissy]

I don't see how you are in the right here. Conid never claimed to be charging you VAT. They just charge one price, all taxes inclusive, for everywhere. If you are from the EU VAT zone your price includes the VAT they will need to pay; if you aren't your price all goes to Conid.

Effectively they have one price for the EU + VAT and different price (and no VAT) for everywhere else. That is still "legal" isn't it? They just use different wording to describe it (ie one price everywhere, VAT inclusive if relevant).

FWIW, I have no affiliation with Conid, not even as a customer or online friend with anyone from there.

No, it isn't legal to charge non-EU customers VAT and other EU sellers seem to be able to manage to operate the correct method. They need to have a VAT free price and a VAT included price. It's not that difficult

[Neo]

I don't see how you are in the right here. Conid never claimed to be charging you VAT. They just charge one price, all taxes inclusive, for everywhere. If you are from the EU VAT zone your price includes the VAT they will need to pay; if you aren't your price all goes to Conid.

Effectively they have one price for the EU + VAT and different price (and no VAT) for everywhere else. That is still "legal" isn't it? They just use different wording to describe it (ie one price everywhere, VAT inclusive if relevant).

FWIW, I have no affiliation with Conid, not even as a customer or online friend with anyone from there.

Using that logic, would it be acceptable to you if the grocery store charged you sales tax on your entire purchase, and they then pocket the tax collected on the food items?

Granted the per transaction amounts would be different in this case than one I raised, but the principle is the same.

[mrcharlie]

No, it isn't legal to charge non-EU customers VAT and other EU sellers seem to be able to manage to operate the correct method. They need to have a VAT free price and a VAT included price. It's not that difficult

I don't know what the VAT rate is, but for sake of argument and easy math posit it at 10%. So Conid could say "Bulk Filler Model A costs 100 Euro plus VAT to any EC customers, and costs 110 Euro plus no VAT for the rest of the world". You agree that would be "legal" right? It isn't illegal in the EC to have different prices for EC and non-EC customers is it? Many web stores have different prices for international/non-international orders.

Posting the price as "110 Euro, VAT inclusive when applicable" is exactly the same thing.


Using that logic, would it be acceptable to you if the grocery store charged you sales tax on your entire purchase, and they then pocket the tax collected on the food items?
No, it isn't the same. The grocery store marks prices as X, and then adds tax to the total when you check out. Conid, from what I'm being told in this item, prices the pen at X and adds no VAT when you check out, regardless of if you are from the EU or not. Then they pay the applicable VAT from that price if the customer is an EU customer.

If Conid is adding vat to the advertised prices at check out, then they are clearly in the wrong. If they are advertising a price that is fixed and VAT inclusive regardless of whether the customer is in the euro/VAT zone or not, I don't see how they are in the wrong. They are effectively charging more for non-EU customers, but again I doubt that is illegal.

[kbrede]

Does the bill actually have a charge for VAT on it? If not, Conid can probably get away with it. That's my uneducated guess.

Having said that, if there's one price for all and the company is deducting 21% of the pen price for VAT sold in the EU and at the same time *not* deducting 21% for pens outside the EU, I've got a problem with that. Essentially they would be charging non EU customers 21% more than EU customers.

EDIT: Maybe better stated, Conid would be making 21% more on pens sold outside the EU, while charging all customers the same. Since they already charge more for shipping to the U.S. I see no reason I should pay more.

Legal or not, I certainly won't be buying a pen from them until they clear this up.
Kent

[Chrissy]

I don't know what the VAT rate is, but for sake of argument and easy math posit it at 10%. So Conid could say "Bulk Filler Model A costs 100 Euro plus VAT to any EC customers, and costs 110 Euro plus no VAT for the rest of the world". You agree that would be "legal" right? It isn't illegal in the EC to have different prices for EC and non-EC customers is it? Many web stores have different prices for international/non-international orders.

Posting the price as "110 Euro, VAT inclusive when applicable" is exactly the same thing.


Using that logic, would it be acceptable to you if the grocery store charged you sales tax on your entire purchase, and they then pocket the tax collected on the food items?
No, it isn't the same. The grocery store marks prices as X, and then adds tax to the total when you check out. Conid, from what I'm being told in this item, prices the pen at X and adds no VAT when you check out, regardless of if you are from the EU or not. Then they pay the applicable VAT from that price if the customer is an EU customer.

If Conid is adding vat to the advertised prices at check out, then they are clearly in the wrong. If they are advertising a price that is fixed and VAT inclusive regardless of whether the customer is in the euro/VAT zone or not, I don't see how they are in the wrong. They are effectively charging more for non-EU customers, but again I doubt that is illegal.

Firstly, VAT in Belgium is chargeable at 21% for everyone in the EU member Countries. That's how it's levied. Many EU Companies sell to Countries within the EU and outside of the EU. By law, they have to keep their accounts and books in order so that the VAT inspector collects the VAT that every Company has collected from all EU sales. Even if they have an all inclusive price, they don't have to pay any VAT on all sales that they have made to buyers in Countries outside the EU, so they can't collect any.

If the VAT inspector finds that a Company has not collected sufficient VAT, then huge fines can be levied. Also, surprisingly, if a VAT inspector finds that a Company has overcharged on VAT then huge fines can be levied that way as well. It can be really complicated to get all accounts correct for VAT collectors. It is most definitely illegal to charge VAT and keep it for yourself.

So, if you're saying that you're happy to pay an additional 21% extra on your purchases, that you know will go to the Company, rather than the Country's coffers, then that's fine. Please don't listen to us, just carry on and do that. In doing that please be aware that you are aiding and abetting an illegal activity.

What we're saying is that since all VAT collected, has to be collected accurately, and legally has to be paid into the member Country coffers, buyers who don't need or want to pay it because they don't live in an EU member Country, prefer to have it in their pockets, rather than donating it as a free 21% *gift* to a Company who can't or won't work out how to give a discount of 21% to non EU buyers. When they know almost all other Companies don't have a problem working it out, because their VAT accountant not only tells them to do it, but tells them how to do it.

If I didn't live in an EU Country and I was charged VAT on a purchase, I would write to the Customs Department of that Country and give them all of the details about which Company had charged me VAT. That Company would be in serious trouble.

[Laura N]

I don't know what the VAT rate is, but for sake of argument and easy math posit it at 10%. So Conid could say "Bulk Filler Model A costs 100 Euro plus VAT to any EC customers, and costs 110 Euro plus no VAT for the rest of the world". You agree that would be "legal" right? It isn't illegal in the EC to have different prices for EC and non-EC customers is it? Many web stores have different prices for international/non-international orders.

Posting the price as "110 Euro, VAT inclusive when applicable" is exactly the same thing.

The reason you see different prices is that prices for non-EU denizens exclude VAT, so those are lower.

What seems to be missed is that VAT is a tax imposed by EU governments on EU denizens. It is collected by the vendor but only on behalf of the government, and it is remitted to the government. The vendor is an agent of the government. The government does not impose that tax on non-EU residents (the rules are more complicated than that, but just go with that simplified explanation). But somehow you think the government allows the vendor to either (i) decide unilaterally to impose the tax on exempt non-EU residents by collecting the VAT from them anyway and remitting it, or (ii) keep the tax amount for itself?

[Chrissy]

Laura is spot on as usual and said it much more eloquently than I did.

[Neo]

Laura is spot on as usual and said it much more eloquently than I did.

Both of you are very eloquent. Thank you.

[mrcharlie]

Does the bill actually have a charge for VAT on it?
No, it doesn't. Since my last post I've looked at the Conid Pens website and order form and verified this. The fact that they are just charging, for instance, Euro 470 for a "Regular" model plus Euro 5 for the cheapest nib, and there is no line item for VAT. Which seems to be something several people here have a hard time understanding. If you aren't from the EU, they are charging you minimally 475 euro for the pen, period. If you are from the EU they are charging you 475 euro for the pen and then doing an accounting where the "real" price is something like Eu 392.56 and the rest is VAT, which they pay to the appropriate authorities.

This doesn't seem to be hard to understand to me. I'm not saying I like that I would effectively be paying 82.50 euro more than someone from the EU, but then in real terms the EU person isn't paying less since they have to pay the VAT ...


EDIT: Maybe better stated, Conid would be making 21% more on pens sold outside the EU, while charging all customers the same. Since they already charge more for shipping to the U.S. I see no reason I should pay more.

They would not be making 21% more; in fact they are probably making a much higher percentage more. The amount they "make" is not the gross price of the pen, but the net price after deducting costs.

But they do not already charge more for shipping to the US. I quote from their order page: "Shipping Cost [Euro symbol] 35 (For Europe, Americas and most of Azia. Other countries on request)". If you care about them charging the same price for the pen despite not having to pay VAT on non EU orders, you probably will be angry at this too since their actual shipping costs are not uniform but they have a single price shipping charge.


Even if they have an all inclusive price, they don't have to pay any VAT on all sales that they have made to buyers in Countries outside the EU, so they can't collect any.
They aren't. There is no line item on the invoice for VAT. They aren't collecting VAT. If the customer is not required to pay VAT, they are merely collecting a price for a pen.


So, if you're saying that you're happy to pay an additional 21% extra on your purchases, that you know will go to the Company, rather than the Country's coffers, then that's fine. Please don't listen to us, just carry on and do that. In doing that please be aware that you are aiding and abetting an illegal activity.
I am too poor to buy a Conid pen, so I don't care if my price is 475 euro or 396.50 euro. Despite being too poor to buy a Conid pen, I would bet 20 USD that what they are doing is legal and that an EU tax accountant would verify this.


What we're saying is that since all VAT collected, has to be collected accurately, and legally has to be paid into the member Country coffers, buyers who don't need or want to pay it because they don't live in an EU member Country, prefer to have it in their pockets, rather than donating it as a free 21% *gift* to a Company who can't or won't work out how to give a discount of 21% to non EU buyers.
That is nonsense. It isn't a gift. They claim the price is 475 euro, if you want the pen you pay 475 euro. Your apparent anger would be justified if they asked for Euro 396.50 and then charged 475 even though I'm not from a VAT nation-state, but they don't do that.


The reason you see different prices is that prices for non-EU denizens exclude VAT, so those are lower.
No. I explicitly mean that websites charge different base prices before any taxes or lack thereof are added in to different customers.

I used to work for amazon.com; I know this to be true. Different US customers would be shown somewhat different prices for the same item (I don't know that they still do this, but they definitely did when I worked there). These are not total prices including taxes; they are the base prices before taxes, and the base prices were not being adjusted to make the totals come out the same (which is basically what conid is doing by quoting only the total tax inclusive prices). It wasn't secret either; online news sites reported that amazon and other web stores did this and even wrote articles on why it was done.


What seems to be missed is that VAT is a tax imposed by EU governments on EU denizens. It is collected by the vendor but only on behalf of the government, and it is remitted to the government. The vendor is an agent of the government. The government does not impose that tax on non-EU residents (the rules are more complicated than that, but just go with that simplified explanation). But somehow you think the government allows the vendor to either (i) decide unilaterally to impose the tax on exempt non-EU residents by collecting the VAT from them anyway and remitting it, or (ii) keep the tax amount for itself?
There is nothing in this paragraph prior to "But somehow you think" that is news to me or contradicts anything I've written. The "agent" aspect is exactly how sales tax works in the US.

What I somehow think is that the government allows the vendor to collect whatever price they want and it doesn't have to be the same for all customers. What I somehow think is that legally as long as they don't advertise the price as including a VAT payment and don't add VAT to my invoice then I'd not be paying VAT; I'd just be paying the asking price for the pen.

[kbrede]

No, it doesn't. Since my last post I've looked at the Conid Pens website and order form and verified this. The fact that they are just charging, for instance, Euro 470 for a "Regular" model plus Euro 5 for the cheapest nib, and there is no line item for VAT. Which seems to be something several people here have a hard time understanding. If you aren't from the EU, they are charging you minimally 475 euro for the pen, period. If you are from the EU they are charging you 475 euro for the pen and then doing an accounting where the "real" price is something like Eu 392.56 and the rest is VAT, which they pay to the appropriate authorities.

This doesn't seem to be hard to understand to me. I'm not saying I like that I would effectively be paying 82.50 euro more than someone from the EU, but then in real terms the EU person isn't paying less since they have to pay the VAT ...

My question, "Does the bill actually have a charge for VAT on it?" that you're responding to above, was to the OP. I should have said "receipt, instead of "bill." Just because the order form doesn't have a VAT listing, doesn't mean the receipt doesn't. The order form doesn't mean squat, it just sends a message to Conid and then Conid makes arrangements for transferring money with the person buying the pen. Nothing is purchased when clicking "send your order" like we're used to with most web purchases.

I asked the OP if the receipt he received with the pen included a charge for VAT. I also go on to say, "If not, Conid can probably get away with it." which pretty much supports your argument. LOL




EDIT: Maybe better stated, Conid would be making 21% more on pens sold outside the EU, while charging all customers the same. Since they already charge more for shipping to the U.S. I see no reason I should pay more.

They would not be making 21% more; in fact they are probably making a much higher percentage more. The amount they "make" is not the gross price of the pen, but the net price after deducting costs.

So if the base price of the pen is $100.00 for those outside the EU and $79.00 + $21.00 VAT for those inside the EU, what happens to the $21.00 sold to pens outside the EU? I'm pretty sure it doesn't go to the tax collector. So ya, Conid would be pocketing an *extra* 21% compared to pens sold within the EU. That's the part I'm not OK with and it would prevent me from purchasing a pen from them. Why is that so hard to understand? You're essentially arguing that people outside the EU give Conid a 21% tip. For what?



But they do not already charge more for shipping to the US. I quote from their order page: "Shipping Cost [Euro symbol] 35 (For Europe, Americas and most of Azia. Other countries on request)". If you care about them charging the same price for the pen despite not having to pay VAT on non EU orders, you probably will be angry at this too since their actual shipping costs are not uniform but they have a single price shipping charge.

You're right about shipping. I thought it was free shipping to those in the EU and 35 euro for those outside. I have no problem with that. There are different shipping costs to different places in the world and I have no problem with variable charges regarding shipping. If you reread what I wrote, you'll see my comment about shipping only pertained to the perceived extra cost for customers outside the EU.

[Neo]

Kbrede , the VAT was a line on the hard copy receipt that stated the price included this tax at a rate of 21%.

[mrcharlie]

The order form has a break down of various costs, and none of it mentions VAT. Sorry for answering the question you asked of the OP; it would be good for the sake of this discussion to see some sort of final invoice or receipt for both and EU and non EU order.


So if the base price of the pen is $100.00 for those outside the EU and $79.00 + $21.00 VAT for those inside the EU, what happens to the $21.00 sold to pens outside the EU? I'm pretty sure it doesn't go to the tax collector. So ya, Conid would be pocketing an *extra* 21% compared to pens sold within the EU. That's the part I'm not OK with and it would prevent me from purchasing a pen from them. Why is that so hard to understand? You're essentially arguing that people outside the EU give Conid a 21% tip. For what?
Yes, Conid makes more money from non-EU customers. That is not in dispute. But they aren't pocketing anything extra from a non EU customer. They are pocketing the full price they are asking and advertising as "the price"; they are pocketing less from the EU customer. This is the important distinction. If the base price is a pre-tax price, then taxes are "extra" and explicitly paid for by the constomer (via the seller who is acting as a tax collecting agent for VAT in this case), and the EU customer will pay a larger final price for the same product. If the base price is inclusive of any applicable taxes, then taxes are removed from the base price (only when applicable) and paid out of the net profit from the seller, and the EU customer and any other customer pay the same price.

The Conid way seems to make some people feel they are getting screwed, and perhaps Conid should take that into consideration. But in fact the Conid way is more egalitarian and more fair, as all customers pay the same final price.

You, the customer, are not paying more than an EU customer. You both pay the same price. Conid just makes less money from the EU transaction.

If you are not OK with the Conid having a higher net profit from you as a non-EU customer than they have from EU customers, don't buy from them. That is fine with me; I don't feel the same way, but I don't demand you agree. That is different from claiming they are illegally charging you VAT, which I don't think they are doing.

[mrcharlie]

If Conid is adding vat to the advertised prices at check out, then they are clearly in the wrong.


Kbrede , the VAT was a line on the hard copy receipt that stated the price included this tax at a rate of 21%.

I thought I'd stated somewhere that if they mentioned VAT on the invoice they were not in the right, but this is the only statement close to that I could find. So I'll admit right here, if they mention that the price includes VAT (without some sort of "any applicable" type weasel words) on a non-EU receipt, then everything I argued is irrelevant, and I'm sorry for wasting your time.

[kbrede]

The order form has a break down of various costs, and none of it mentions VAT. Sorry for answering the question you asked of the OP; it would be good for the sake of this discussion to see some sort of final invoice or receipt for both and EU and non EU order.


So if the base price of the pen is $100.00 for those outside the EU and $79.00 + $21.00 VAT for those inside the EU, what happens to the $21.00 sold to pens outside the EU? I'm pretty sure it doesn't go to the tax collector. So ya, Conid would be pocketing an *extra* 21% compared to pens sold within the EU. That's the part I'm not OK with and it would prevent me from purchasing a pen from them. Why is that so hard to understand? You're essentially arguing that people outside the EU give Conid a 21% tip. For what?
Yes, Conid makes more money from non-EU customers. That is not in dispute. But they aren't pocketing anything extra from a non EU customer. They are pocketing the full price they are asking and advertising as "the price"; they are pocketing less from the EU customer. This is the important distinction. If the base price is a pre-tax price, then taxes are "extra" and explicitly paid for by the constomer (via the seller who is acting as a tax collecting agent for VAT in this case), and the EU customer will pay a larger final price for the same product. If the base price is inclusive of any applicable taxes, then taxes are removed from the base price (only when applicable) and paid out of the net profit from the seller, and the EU customer and any other customer pay the same price.

The Conid way seems to make some people feel they are getting screwed, and perhaps Conid should take that into consideration. But in fact the Conid way is more egalitarian and more fair, as all customers pay the same final price.

You, the customer, are not paying more than an EU customer. You both pay the same price. Conid just makes less money from the EU transaction.

If you are not OK with the Conid having a higher net profit from you as a non-EU customer than they have from EU customers, don't buy from them. That is fine with me; I don't feel the same way, but I don't demand you agree. That is different from claiming they are illegally charging you VAT, which I don't think they are doing.

I understand all that. My purchases from the EU have always been less than what a person in the EU would pay, due to them having to pay VAT. Sometimes the increased shipping cost to the U.S. will even out the final price for sure. But remember the VAT paid, in theory, benefits the person paying the tax. They get some of that money back, though services, infrastructure, etc. You're looking at it as if Conid is treating all their customers equal. I'm looking at it from the viewpoint that Conid is using my 21% to subsidize the EU price.

EDIT: I shouldn't have said "My purchases from the EU have *always* been less" because the exchange rate hasn't always made that possible. :) I would be all for Conid shifting their base price to compensate for the stronger Euro. ;) Especially in the future when 1 usd equals 1.5 euro again.

At any rate, if you're fine with the way Conid seems to be doing business. I'm fine with you being fine with it. :) I'll just vote with my dollars.
Kent

[Neo]

Mr.Charlie, no apology is necessary.

[Neo]

An update for those that are interested.

i received a message from Werner this morning feigning surprise at the chargeback and ignorance of the reason for it. He forwarded to Paypal our very early communications where I confirmed that I had received the pen but not the later ones in the chain with the web links regarding VAT law. Of course I promptly sent those along to the dispute department.

i am getting a bit frustrated with the multi-month saga and wish for a resolution soon....

[kbrede]

An update for those that are interested.

i received a message from Werner this morning feigning surprise at the chargeback and ignorance of the reason for it. He forwarded to Paypal our very early communications where I confirmed that I had received the pen but not the later ones in the chain with the web links regarding VAT law. Of course I promptly sent those along to the dispute department.

i am getting a bit frustrated with the multi-month saga and wish for a resolution soon....

Thanks for hanging with this and for keeping us posted. Doesn't surprise me he acts like he doesn't know what's going on and trying to avoid the whole thing. If word gets out someone got a refund for an inappropriate VAT charge, he will owe people a lot of money. And moving forward he'll have to change his pricing scheme. I really wanted one of his pens but the more I hear about the company, the less I want to.
Kent

[Neo]

Well, Werner sent me a reply....

As said I hoped I could resolve the problem easily.We do have contacted the local Belgian government and are told that if
received a package without paying any custom cost the VAT may not be refund.

Please let me know if you are pleased with your Conid Bulkfiller fountainpen ?

I am confident that we surely will find a solution both of us will be pleased.

I am going to ask him to prove this statement, am eagerly awaiting a reply.

[pengeezer]

Well, Werner sent me a reply....

As said I hoped I could resolve the problem easily.We do have contacted the local Belgian government and are told that if
received a package without paying any custom cost the VAT may not be refund.

Please let me know if you are pleased with your Conid Bulkfiller fountainpen ?

I am confident that we surely will find a solution both of us will be pleased.

I am going to ask him to prove this statement, am eagerly awaiting a reply.


Maybe you should ask the Belgian government if Werner contacted them,and see if both answers match up.



John

[Neo]

I have, I'd called weeks ago and sent a message electronically yesterday. No response yet.

[Laura N]

At any rate, if you're fine with the way Conid seems to be doing business. I'm fine with you being fine with it. :) I'll just vote with my dollars.
Kent

Plus one.

[Neo]

At any rate, if you're fine with the way Conid seems to be doing business. I'm fine with you being fine with it. :) I'll just vote with my dollars.
Kent

Plus one.

If I could go back in time, ditto.

[Woody]

You are correct. No-one outside the EU needs to pay VAT on purchases

Wow. . I got customs and VAT to Canada a number of months ago. A Conid pen from Belgium.

My first Conid about 2 years ago it was a custom charge only. I understood that. On my second Conid about 7 months ago it was Customs, and VAT. I sent a note to Francis at Conid, and Francis mentioned that they might be able to look into it on my next purchase.

All in all, the pen plus customs and VAT was $200 more. For me quite cost prohibitive for any other Conids. Pity really because I love the pen.

[Neo]

Hello, the Belgian authorities sent me an email, unfortunately it's in French. :noidea: Is there anyone here that is willing to help me with translation? :cry:

[sloegin]

You should be able to run it through google translate for a rough translation.

Here (https://translate.google.com/).

[Chrissy]

Hello, the Belgian authorities sent me an email, unfortunately it's in French. :noidea: Is there anyone here that is willing to help me with translation? :cry:

I always use This (http://www.freetranslation.com/) free translator. It seems more accurate than many others.

I am not too bad at French, only a bit rusty, so I could have a go if you like. Unless we have any fluent French speakers on here.

[Laura N]

To me, it isn't enough to determine whether Belgium will give or authorize a refund of VAT. The procedure of getting a customs stamp at the airport when you depart is something you do, if I remember my trips to Europe, when you've been a tourist in the country and paid VAT on a large purchase and want a refund. I can see how a government would say "that's our procedure, so that's what we need to issue a refund." But that applies to VAT that is properly charged -- all customers within the EU are supposed to pay the VAT, and only some can get a refund.

In this case, the merchant may have incorrectly charged VAT on an item shipped outside the EU. So, if that was in error, I would look to the merchant as the person wholly responsible.

I probably am cynical, but I really wouldn't look for the Belgium tax authorities to be eager to help a non-citizen get a refund of VAT, or any other part of the Belgium government to go after a Belgium business in a dispute with a lone American consumer. It seems to me that the American government wouldn't, if the roles were reversed. I think your best bet here is the credit card company.

[Neo]

To me, it isn't enough to determine whether Belgium will give or authorize a refund of VAT. The procedure of getting a customs stamp at the airport when you depart is something you do, if I remember my trips to Europe, when you've been a tourist in the country and paid VAT on a large purchase and want a refund. I can see how a government would say "that's our procedure, so that's what we need to issue a refund." But that applies to VAT that is properly charged -- all customers within the EU are supposed to pay the VAT, and only some can get a refund.

In this case, the merchant may have incorrectly charged VAT on an item shipped outside the EU. So, if that was in error, I would look to the merchant as the person wholly responsible.

I probably am cynical, but I really wouldn't look for the Belgium tax authorities to be eager to help a non-citizen get a refund of VAT, or any other part of the Belgium government to go after a Belgium business in a dispute with a lone American consumer. It seems to me that the American government wouldn't, if the roles were reversed. I think your best bet here is the credit card company.


Im getting that feeling too, as I stated very clearly in my initial message that I am not able to communicate in French, Dutch or German. Based on some of the other posts, this appears to be standard operating procedures for Conid.

That said, I would have not made this purchase if I had known the aggravation involved afterwards.

[Laura N]

To me, it isn't enough to determine whether Belgium will give or authorize a refund of VAT. The procedure of getting a customs stamp at the airport when you depart is something you do, if I remember my trips to Europe, when you've been a tourist in the country and paid VAT on a large purchase and want a refund. I can see how a government would say "that's our procedure, so that's what we need to issue a refund." But that applies to VAT that is properly charged -- all customers within the EU are supposed to pay the VAT, and only some can get a refund.

In this case, the merchant may have incorrectly charged VAT on an item shipped outside the EU. So, if that was in error, I would look to the merchant as the person wholly responsible.

I probably am cynical, but I really wouldn't look for the Belgium tax authorities to be eager to help a non-citizen get a refund of VAT, or any other part of the Belgium government to go after a Belgium business in a dispute with a lone American consumer. It seems to me that the American government wouldn't, if the roles were reversed. I think your best bet here is the credit card company.


Im getting that feeling too, as I stated very clearly in my initial message that I am not able to communicate in French, Dutch or German. Based on some of the other posts, this appears to be standard operating procedures for Conid.

That said, I would have not made this purchase if I had known the aggravation involved afterwards.

Yeah, sympathies. I guess I'd just point out that that fellow -- Werner? -- may think he acted correctly. So I'd keep that in mind, too. I think it's an unfortunate situation, aggravated by different languages and different legal regimes. If he's operating in error when he charges VAT to everyone, I hope this spurs him to retain an expert in VAT who can properly advise him going forward.

[tandaina]

I'm passable at French, maybe post the French message and we can get a readable translation?

[Woody]

It would be nice to have warner or fountainbellle for that matter to post on the forum. Fountainbelle is very active on FPN but not so much here. It would also be very helpful to have a disclaimer on the Conid website explaining how they use or not use VAT. it's pretty sobering factoring I customs and VAT. On another note, isn't it great that we can discuss this openly on this forum? had this started on the aforementioned site, well, it wouldn't have gotten post 2.

[Neo]

It would be nice to have warner or fountainbellle for that matter to post on the forum. Fountainbelle is very active on FPN but not so much here. It would also be very helpful to have a disclaimer on the Conid website explaining how they use or not use VAT. it's pretty sobering factoring I customs and VAT. On another note, isn't it great that we can discuss this openly on this forum? had this started on the aforementioned site, well, it wouldn't have gotten post 2.


:offtopic:

I haven't spent any time on the other forum, but that seems a bit too much moderation.

[Chrissy]

It would be nice to have warner or fountainbellle for that matter to post on the forum. Fountainbelle is very active on FPN but not so much here. It would also be very helpful to have a disclaimer on the Conid website explaining how they use or not use VAT. it's pretty sobering factoring I customs and VAT. On another note, isn't it great that we can discuss this openly on this forum? had this started on the aforementioned site, well, it wouldn't have gotten post 2.


:offtopic:

I haven't spent any time on the other forum, but that seems a bit too much moderation.

You haven't missed much

[KrazyIvan]

From personal experience, I have never paid VAT on anything I have purchased from Euro zone nations.

[Neo]

From personal experience, I have never paid VAT on anything I have purchased from Euro zone nations.


Thank you, Sith Lord. :laser:

[tandaina]

From personal experience, I have never paid VAT on anything I have purchased from Euro zone nations.

Same here. I buy quite a few vintage German pens from places like Martini Auctions and they clearly state that VAT will be charged to EU residents. As a US resident I have *never* been charged VAT.

[Neo]

From personal experience, I have never paid VAT on anything I have purchased from Euro zone nations.

Same here. I buy quite a few vintage German pens from places like Martini Auctions and they clearly state that VAT will be charged to EU residents. As a US resident I have *never* been charged VAT.

Thank you, Tandaina.

[earthdawn]

Here is a copy of my receipt from Akkerman in the Netherlands.... You can see it states no VAT will be added

_______________________________
Order summary

Dear XXXX,

P.W. Akkerman B.V. has received the following order with Order number 2549100_00443

Article Description Quantity Price Total price
AkkInkt000 Akkerman Jubileum Vulpeninkt, kleur 23 Bekakt Haags 1 € 13,64 € 13,64
AkkInkt000 Akkerman Jubileum Vulpeninkt, kleur 13 Simplisties Violet 1 € 13,64 € 13,64
AkkInkt000 Akkerman Jubileum Vulpeninkt, kleur 10 Akkerman IJzer-Galnoten bl/zw 1 € 13,64 € 13,64
no VAT will be added
shipping cost (United States) € 20,00
Total price € 60,92
Bedankt voor uw bestelling, wij zullen uw order zo spoedig mogelijk afhandelen. Indien u heeft gekozen voor 'Vooruitbetalen' zullen wij uw bestelling versturen als u het factuurbedrag op onze rekening heeft overgemaakt.
ING 14109 t.g.v. P.W. Akkerman B.V. Den Haag


If you have chosen to pay in advance through your bank, please use the following details and ad in the description box your order number.

_____________________________

Also, if you look at the link below for Cult Pens you can see they clearly display 2 prices... those with VAT and those without, for people residing outside the EU

http://www.cultpens.com/i/q/PK42928/pelikan-m805-limited-edition-demonstrator-fountain-pen

[Chrissy]

That is exactly how it should be done

[Neo]

Here is a copy of my receipt from Akkerman in the Netherlands.... You can see it states no VAT will be added

_______________________________
Order summary

Dear XXXX,

P.W. Akkerman B.V. has received the following order with Order number 2549100_00443

Article Description Quantity Price Total price
AkkInkt000 Akkerman Jubileum Vulpeninkt, kleur 23 Bekakt Haags 1 € 13,64 € 13,64
AkkInkt000 Akkerman Jubileum Vulpeninkt, kleur 13 Simplisties Violet 1 € 13,64 € 13,64
AkkInkt000 Akkerman Jubileum Vulpeninkt, kleur 10 Akkerman IJzer-Galnoten bl/zw 1 € 13,64 € 13,64
no VAT will be added
shipping cost (United States) € 20,00
Total price € 60,92
Bedankt voor uw bestelling, wij zullen uw order zo spoedig mogelijk afhandelen. Indien u heeft gekozen voor 'Vooruitbetalen' zullen wij uw bestelling versturen als u het factuurbedrag op onze rekening heeft overgemaakt.
ING 14109 t.g.v. P.W. Akkerman B.V. Den Haag


If you have chosen to pay in advance through your bank, please use the following details and ad in the description box your order number.

_____________________________

Also, if you look at the link below for Cult Pens you can see they clearly display 2 prices... those with VAT and those without, for people residing outside the EU

http://www.cultpens.com/i/q/PK42928/pelikan-m805-limited-edition-demonstrator-fountain-pen



Thank you, Earthdawn. This is how I remember Cultpens doing things also.

[Fountainbel]

Hi fountain pen friends !
Werner asked me to post the following message from Conid on the board.
Note I'm only the messenger,so please contact Conid directly if you should have any complementary questions.
Best regards, Francis


Dear Conid customers !
There is a lot going on on the boards about the fact Conid includes the VAT for non European customers, and we do understand.
We were initially briefed by the Belgian tax authorities that Belgian VAT needs to be charged for "abroad 'Business to customer sales", at least when no export documents are provided, hence no custom import duties are paid at the customers end.
This implies that the VAT can be eliminated when CONID provides these export documents.
However providing these export documents implies automatically the customer will always have to pay custom import duties in his/her country.
As from now on CONID will always provide the necessary import documents, hence the Belgian VAT will not be charged for non EU customers.
As what concerns the already shipped orders , we are unfortunately not able to refund the VAT, as it has been already paid to the Belgian tax authorities
However we just started negotiations with the Belgian tax authorities to see if the cases can be reopened and the VAT can be recuperated.
If these negotiations end positively, it would however imply that the customer has to prove he/she paid effectively the import duties at his/her side.
So in case the refund negotiations with the Belgian tax authorities end positive, only customers which can prove they paid custom import duties in their country can apply for a refund.
We are very sorry for the confusion we caused, and hope to solve it in our mutual benefit
Please note that Conid is committed to work closely with the carrier and the Belgian tax authorities to clarify and solve this issue.
We will surely keep you updated.
Kind regards,
Werner

[Neo]

Hi fountain pen friends !
Werner asked me to post the following message from Conid on the board.
Note I'm only the messenger,so please contact Conid directly if you should have any complementary questions.
Best regards, Francis


Dear Conid customers !
There is a lot going on on the boards about the fact Conid includes the VAT for non European customers, and we do understand.
We were initially briefed by the Belgian tax authorities that Belgian VAT needs to be charged for "abroad 'Business to customer sales", at least when no export documents are provided, hence no custom import duties are paid at the customers end.
This implies that the VAT can be eliminated when CONID provides these export documents.
However providing these export documents implies automatically the customer will always have to pay custom import duties in his/her country.
As from now on CONID will always provide the necessary import documents, hence the Belgian VAT will not be charged for non EU customers.
As what concerns the already shipped orders , we are unfortunately not able to refund the VAT, as it has been already paid to the Belgian tax authorities
However we just started negotiations with the Belgian tax authorities to see if the cases can be reopened and the VAT can be recuperated.
If these negotiations end positively, it would however imply that the customer has to prove he/she paid effectively the import duties at his/her side.
So in case the refund negotiations with the Belgian tax authorities end positive, only customers which can prove they paid custom import duties in their country can apply for a refund.
We are very sorry for the confusion we caused, and hope to solve it in our mutual benefit
Please note that Conid is committed to work closely with the carrier and the Belgian tax authorities to clarify and solve this issue.
We will surely keep you updated.
Kind regards,
Werner


I understand you are only the messenger, but can you provide some documentation from your country's tax authority to support this statement? This seems at odds with how many other EU country based businesses operate.

In addition, I have contacted Conid directly and was ignored until the credit card company did a chargeback to your company. Werner has not responded in almost a week to my last request for supporting documentation.

Just my two cents, I know that it is a risky expense to refund customers before your refund comes in from the tax authority. However, from a customer service standpoint, it would be better to make things right for the non-EU buyers of your products sooner rather than later. After all, although good will does not show up on the ledger as a column, it does have impact on the company.

[rpsyed]

I don't know anything about VAT law or how it differs from country to country, but I know that as a US resident when I purchased a Romillo that was shipped from Spain, I did not have to pay either VAT nor import duties. That is the only time I've ever ordered anything from outside the US, but I thought that was the norm for US customers buying from a EU based business?

I always assumed the prices on Conid's site were without VAT. If the prices include VAT and it will now be deducted from non-EU customers, then the pens are much better deal (at least for non-EU customers).

[Robert]

I don't know anything about VAT law or how it differs from country to country, but I know that as a US resident when I purchased a Romillo that was shipped from Spain, I did not have to pay either VAT nor import duties.

I've ordered pens from Japan, UK, Germany and Italy and was never charged VAT. I was charged customs duty on an expensive pen from Italy - about $20.00 on a pen costing almost $500.00 - - no biggy there. The odd thing was that I was billed U.S. customs charges on the Italian pen a week or two *after* delivery by the carrier, Federal Express.

[Neo]

I don't know anything about VAT law or how it differs from country to country, but I know that as a US resident when I purchased a Romillo that was shipped from Spain, I did not have to pay either VAT nor import duties.

I've ordered pens from Japan, UK, Germany and Italy and was never charged VAT. I was charged customs duty on an expensive pen from Italy - about $20.00 on a pen costing almost $500.00 - - no biggy there. The odd thing was that I was billed U.S. customs charges on the Italian pen a week or two *after* delivery by the carrier, Federal Express.

And the rate appears to be well BELOW the 21% that is charged in Belgium.

[Chrissy]

US buyers buy pens from many sellers throughout Europe, without paying VAT, and they never have to prove that they have paid import taxes, because they are rarely charged any.

[tandaina]

US buyers buy pens from many sellers throughout Europe, without paying VAT, and they never have to prove that they have paid import taxes, because they are rarely charged any.

Yup, this. Import taxes have absolutely zero to do with VAT. VAT is charged within Europe, import taxes are the purview of each country and if a country doesn't want to bother with them that doesn't affect the fact that VAT should not be collected outside the EU. I'm afraid Conid's response makes me lose a great deal of respect for them. Essentially their response says: we were too lazy to do things properly, and our previous customers are out of luck, but someone stirred up trouble with the government so from now on we'll do it right because you made us. Egads.

I hate to say this but whether or not they can get the VAT back from the government is irrelevant. If you collected tax improperly you owe your customers a refund out of your own pocket if necessary. Those customers have a right to demand that.

[Chrissy]

Yup, this. Import taxes have absolutely zero to do with VAT. VAT is charged within Europe, import taxes are the purview of each country and if a country doesn't want to bother with them that doesn't affect the fact that VAT should not be collected outside the EU. I'm afraid Conid's response makes me lose a great deal of respect for them. Essentially their response says: we were too lazy to do things properly, and our previous customers are out of luck, but someone stirred up trouble with the government so from now on we'll do it right because you made us. Egads.

I hate to say this but whether or not they can get the VAT back from the government is irrelevant. If you collected tax improperly you owe your customers a refund out of your own pocket if necessary. Those customers have a right to demand that.

Very well said!

[Neo]

Yup, this. Import taxes have absolutely zero to do with VAT. VAT is charged within Europe, import taxes are the purview of each country and if a country doesn't want to bother with them that doesn't affect the fact that VAT should not be collected outside the EU. I'm afraid Conid's response makes me lose a great deal of respect for them. Essentially their response says: we were too lazy to do things properly, and our previous customers are out of luck, but someone stirred up trouble with the government so from now on we'll do it right because you made us. Egads.

I hate to say this but whether or not they can get the VAT back from the government is irrelevant. If you collected tax improperly you owe your customers a refund out of your own pocket if necessary. Those customers have a right to demand that.

Very well said!


Thank you to both of you for the concurrence.:agree:

[cwent2]

For what it is worth as a consumer, after reading Conid's response I would be not purchase a pen from their company.

And evidently Conid could care less as to the future purchases or lack there of from this forum.

Frankly their attitude towards resolving Neo's issue is sad

[Neo]

I'm still waiting for the credit card company and PayPal to make their final decision on this case, and as I've already waited for Werner to respond for almost 2 months, it's only fair that I am patient with them as I didn't open the case that long ago.

[Neo]

I have contacted Conid directly and was ignored until the credit card company did a chargeback to your company. Werner has not responded in almost a week to my last request for supporting documentation.


It would only be fair to mention that Werner reached out today to update me that he has an appointment with the tax authorities later this week. So, hopefully he would be getting some guidance soon as to what the next steps should be.

[Fountainbel]

Dear fountain pen friends,
Werner asked me to post the message below.
It looks the issue will be solved shortly, and i'm very happy with it !
Best regards, Francis



Dear CONID Customers,

We are pleased to come back to you with good news!

We have been questioned about the VAT that we have charged to all our customers, even for our Non – EU customers as we were told to do by legal authorities. This charged VAT is systematically declared at our end as such in all our files and we can ensure you of the transparency of all these transactions .
The raised concerns about CONID making profit charging our Non – EU Customers with the VAT is not justified as these were systematically declared and paid to the Belgium Taxes department.

The rightful concerns from some of our observant customers has challenged us to see what went wrong.

We now not only went for a face to face meeting with the Belgian Customs representative, but even with the Belgian Taxes department.
So finally we hope to have the full picture!
Favorable result is that the wrongly included VAT for Non EU shipments - which we already transferred to the tax office - will be refunded to our account.

We humbly ask you to excuse us for the inconvenience we caused!
We are pleased to say that we will reimburse to all involved for this inappropriatly charged Belgium VAT.
A personal email will be sent in order to arrange the reimbursement correctly!

We will need to revise our website as well and indicate all details of the Belgium VAT appliances and the Non EU shipping.

Thanks again for those who pointed us to the problem!

By putting this problem finally to bed, we sincerely hope our relationship for the future will be strengthened.


Kind regards,

Werner

[Chrissy]

It's good to know that the eventual outcome will be the correct one.

Well done Neo for highlighting this problem. :)

[Neo]

Werner and Francis, thank you for the update and efforts to do the right thing.

Thank you to the FPG community for all of your input and assistance in resolving this issue. Especially Chrissy, who provided her time and French translation very generously.

[mikemargolis]

Excellent news for all of us Conid lovers.

I can tell you this was the ONLY downside to my pen purchase, and now that's been rectified.

My Kingsize bulkfiller is my favorite pen of the 50+ that I own, and I can't wait to receive my Minimalistica that I have on order.

I am glad that I was part of the impetus to get the VAT issue resolved.

As I do a lot of business in Europe from the USA, I was quite sure that Conid's former policy was incorrect, and I am glad they took the time to meet with the Belgian tax authority and get the issue resolved, and that they're going to refund those affected.

My Conid Kingsize was a €705 pen so 21% of that is a significant amount of money that I didn't even know I was paying until the invoice came back to me after I'd done the wire transfer.

Werner and Nadia did make it right, and I am glad to hear they're refunding others and putting the tax-free option on their website. That makes Conid's now 21% less money for those of us who live outside the EU.

[Neo]

Response from the Belgian VAT office......

Notre référence: (prière de communiquer ce numéro lors de chaque contact avec le Contact Center)


Sur la base des éléments que vous me communiquez, j’ai l’honneur de vous répondre ce qui suit.
Extrait de l’Article 39 du code de la TVA belge (http://ccff02.minfin.fgov.be/KMWeb/document.do?method=view&nav=1&id=9c253c44-d456-4029-a9eb-efbb8fbe6020&disableHighlightning=9c253c44-d456-4029-a9eb-efbb8fbe6020/#art_039_00) :
« § 1er. Sont exemptées de la taxe :
1° les livraisons de biens expédiés ou transportés, par le vendeur ou pour son compte, en dehors de la Communauté ;
...».

Si le fournisseur a lui même expédié, ou fait expédier les biens par un transporteur à destination de votre adresse aux Etats-Unis d'Amérique, il était tenu de vous facturer la livraison de ces biens en exonération de la TVA pour cause d'exportation car il disposait forcément de la preuve de l'exportation.

Si vous avez payé au fournisseur le prix TVA comprise, il doit vous rembourser la TVA et vous envoyer une note de crédit pour le montant de cette TVA avec pour mention "Exonération de la TVA en vertu de l'article 39, §1er, 1°, du Code de la TVA".

Vous devez exiger vous-même ce remboursement auprès de votre fournisseur. Si vous nous communiquez par e-mail la copie de la facture avec les coordonnées complètes de votre fournisseur, nous ferons suivre votre plainte au contrôle TVA compétent pour suite utile.

Pour toute information générale complémentaire, veuillez consulter le site web du SPF Finances (http://finances.belgium.be) ou téléphoner au Contact Center du SPF Finances au numéro de téléphone 0257/257 57 (tel:0257/257 57) (tarif normal, tous les jours ouvrables de 8h à 17h).

[Neo]

translation......

Our Reference: (please contact this number at each contact with the Contact Center)


Based on the items you contact me, I have the honor to meet the following.
Extract from Article 39 of the Belgian VAT Code (http://ccff02.minfin.fgov.be/KMWeb/document.do?method=view&nav=1&id=9c253c44-d456-4029-a9eb-efbb8fbe6020&disableHighlightning=9c253c44-d456-4029-a9eb-efbb8fbe6020/#art_039_00) :
"§ 1. Are exempt from the tax:
1 ° deliveries of goods dispatched or transported by the vendor or on his behalf, outside the Community;
... ".

If the supplier has shipped himself, or does ship the goods to a carrier of your address in the United States of America, he was required to charge you for the supply of goods exempt from VAT on account of exportation because it necessarily had proof of export.

If you paid the supplier the price including VAT, it must refund the VAT and send you a credit note for the amount of the VAT with the words "Exemption from VAT pursuant to Article 39, §1, 1 ° of the VAT Code. "

You must require such reimbursement yourself from your supplier. If you contact us by e-mail a copy of the invoice with full details of your supplier, we will forward your complaint to the relevant VAT check for further action.

For more general information, please visit the FPS Finance website (http://finances.belgium.be) or call the Contact Center of the FPS Finance at the telephone number 0257/257 57 (tel:0257/257 57) (normal rate, every working day 8h to 17h).

Please accept, the assurances of our highest regards.

Contact Center FPS Finance
Tel. 0257/257 57 (tel:0257/257 57) (normal rate, every working day from 8 am to 17 pm)
http://finances.belgium.be

[Fountainbel]

Hi fountain pen friends,
I'm very happy to post a new message from Werner, the owner of CONID
Best regards,
Francis

Dear Conid customers,
A sincere " Thank You !" on the way you reacted on my earlier message concerning our resolution of the VAT issue !
Below more details on how we are going to proceed :

1- Prices will be corrected on our website in the coming weeks, meaning marked prices will be without VAT.
So only EU buyers will have to add the 21% VAT

2- As from today , non EU customers may directly deduct the 21% VAT from the actual mentioned prices when ordering a Bulkfiller, hence deducting effectively 17.35% from the actual mentioned prices
(See clarification in new posting below)

3- All earlier non EU customers who paid "VAT included" will be refunded for all their orders.
You will receive an E-mail in the coming weeks.
Conid will ask you to fill in a form in order to justify a refund from the Belgian VAT office, hence allowing us to recuperate the Belgian VAT we already paid.
You will also need to specify your bank account or Paypal details.

4 - For all pending 2015 orders we will systematically refund per shipment.

5- Note it may take some time before all customers are refunded, while we sold approximately 150 Bulkfillers outside the EU in the meantime.
However be assured we we do our very best to complete the refunds as soon as possible !

Thanks again for your patience and friendly help in pointing us to the problem and helping us in putting this frustrating issue definitively to bed !
King regards,
Werner & Nadia

[Fountainbel]

Hi Fountain pen friends,
It looks there was a mistake in the effective refund percentage calculation, sorry for that.
Refunding 21% off the price from non EU purchases is incorrect.
Belgian VAT rate is 21%. So if the price before VAT is 100, the total price with VAT is 121.
If someone buys that 121 item without VAT, it should cost 100. So the discount rate is 21/121 which is about 17.35 % discount, not 21% discount.
If the discount would be 21% it would mean that the price would be 95.59 which less than the original price of 100 before VAT, and thus is more discount than just taking off the VAT.
I'll corrected this in the earlier posting.
​Sorry for the confusion we caused !
Francis

[elaineb]

I've goofed up similar equations myself, and many times. :)

[tandaina]

It would be *way* simpler to simply list the price and note that it is X amount + VAT (21%) for EU residents. ;) This is how I normally see things listed, was simpler for the customer, and no confusion.

[Chrissy]

It would be *way* simpler to simply list the price and note that it is X amount + VAT (21%) for EU residents. ;) This is how I normally see things listed, was simpler for the customer, and no confusion.
I agree with this and think that's how most online sellers do it.

[Fountainbel]

It would be *way* simpler to simply list the price and note that it is X amount + VAT (21%) for EU residents. ;) This is how I normally see things listed, was simpler for the customer, and no confusion.

Hi Tandiana,
Sure , thats the way Conid will do it when adapting the website !
But since it can take a few weeks before the website is upgraded, customers can already order and directly deduct the VAT themselves.
Thanks for your suggestion though !
Best regards, Francis

[Neo]

A last update, I was informed by Nadia at Conid that my refund has been finalized. I'm happy that all of this has finally resolved and the misunderstanding on all sides rectified.

[mrcharlie]

The amount of refund should be X-(X/1.21) where X==the price paid.

Not that you should trust anything I write about anything at this point.

[Robert]

Is VAT also assessed on "services" - such as nib grinding - and postage, or are such items exempt?

[Neo]

Is VAT also assessed on "services" - such as nib grinding - and postage, or are such items exempt?


You may find this link Chrissy provided helpful... https://www.gov.uk/vat-exports-dispatches-and-supplying-goods-abroad#reporting-requirements-for-eu-sales-where-vat-is-charged

[Chrissy]

Is VAT also assessed on "services" - such as nib grinding - and postage, or are such items exempt?

VAT is payable on services such as nib-grinding, or repair work. However, no-one in the EU should be charging it to people who are outside of the EU.

As an example, say I wanted to send one of my pens to a US nib grinder. That would be fine, as long as he completed the return Customs Declaration only declaring the cost of the service when it was returned to me. I would be charged VAT on that (it would include whatever the shipping cost was too) and not on the value of the pen that was already my property coming back.

[pica pica]

Is VAT also assessed on "services" - such as nib grinding - and postage, or are such items exempt?

It will depend on whether a seller is registered for VAT or not (has a VAT number, pays tax on sales and is able to issue invoices, not receipts). If they are, they should not charge the VAT on export to non-EU countries for any of the services. However, if you approach someone who is not a VAT payer, let say an individual who repairs, restores or sells pens privately not paying tax on services/sales you'll have to pay the normal price.

[pica pica]

By the way, the VAT on different products/services will differ (like 7% for postage, 11% for nib repair and 21% for fountain pens), and there will be variations between individual countries in the EU in the tax charged for the same product/service. For example, we may have a pen which costs 50 EUR (with VAT included) in both Germany and Portugal, but if the VAT for fountain pens is 15% and 25% respecively, it means that the real cost of the pen shipped outside of the EU will be 43.5 euros in Germany and 40 euros in Portugal.


*** the tax rates above are not real. Some random numbers were picked to illustrate the problem

For the real tax rates on stationary products including pens in the EU please look at the 'standard rate' here:

http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/resources/documents/taxation/vat/how_vat_works/rates/vat_rates_en.pdf

'Reduced rate' includes services like pen repair or transportation/shipping