Visconti Counterfeit Nib?

[RayCornett]

I just bought a barely used Visconti Rembrandt. In addition to the stock nib ,it came with a reverse oblique nib which she had custom ground but the local pen shop nib meister. Both are F nibs. She told me she's always suspected the reverse oblique nib was fake because it weighed less than the stock nib and has a good amount of flex/spring to it. I examined both under a 10x and 40x loupe and the oblique nib looks just like the stock nib. This is my first Visconti so I am not sure how their nibs behave. But the original owner says they're normally very stiff because they're steel.

Are there counterfeit Visconti nibs?

[Chrissy]

I have never heard of one. IMHO, if there were fake Visconti nibs around, they would be less likely to be reverse obliques than almost any other type because hardly anyone wants one. So it doesn't make sense to make fakes of it. Fakes are made to make money. No one's getting fat on reverse oblique nibs

[mmahany]

Are there counterfeit Visconti nibs?

I can say with great confidence that the nib is not a replica/fake. It's a sad truth, but part of spotting fakes involves thinking like a counterfeiter.

A counterfeiter MAY replicate a $100 (assuming ~$150 retail) pen, but it's going to be a very poor fake. Replicating each detail of a pen (or any item) is not cheap. Consequently, most counterfeiters who copy <$500 pens are going to produce very low quality replicas and sell them to non-collectors. That's the only way they can make money.

The reason the Montblanc Meisterstuck is so commonly replicated is because the model has hardly changed over the past 30-40 years. In addition, models such as the 163 have only a few individual parts. When you add in the fact that a 163 can sell for over $200 in "New" condition on eBay, that makes it worth it to a counterfeiter.

SHORT ANSWER: If you've already examined both nibs with a loupe, you can rest easy. The chances of a counterfeiter replicating a $100 pen with accuracy that precise is slim to none.

[RayCornett]

I'm sure you're correct. I just wondered if anyone knew of fake Visconti nibs. They do make much higher priced pens with even nicer nibs

[dneal]

If they're going to counterfeit Visconti, it would be the whole pen and not just the nib.

[tandaina]

That makes zero sense. I'm not sure why people in the pen world are so entirely *obsessed* with everything being counterfeit. Counterfeiting only makes sense on something where one can make *money* off it. Counterfeiting a nib unit, especially well enough that under a loop it looks the same as the real one would take far too much effort and cost far too much money to make it worth anyone's while. Nibs vary that does not mean they aren't authentic.

[dneal]

Counterfeiting Lamy Safaris doesn't make a lot of sense either, but apparently they're doing it.

[tandaina]

I've yet to be convinced on that score. Yes there are *nockoffs* being made in China, but they are clearly that, not a counterfeit. The one claim of a counterfeit Lamy I've seen the pen itself was entirely destroyed making it impossible to verify, the evidence presented did *not* convince me. Counterfeiting high end modern C/C pens is a quick way to make a buck. But your 1950s Montblanc isn't counterfeit, and I'm highly suspicious of counterfeit low end pens. *shrug*

[carlc]

Wasn't there counterfeit Hero 616's at some point?
http://www.wellappointeddesk.com/2013/04/counterfeit-pens/

The point made above stands though - counterfeiting a nib to that standard doesn't seem likely.

[KBeezie]

Counterfeiting Lamy Safaris doesn't make a lot of sense either, but apparently they're doing it.

Safaris sell in mass quantities an apparently to reproduce their appearance costs less than $2 each, but then can sell at $30 a piece. For the counterfeiters, it sure beats producing and selling them as Heros for $4-5. So for the Chinese counterfeiters, there's a lot more money in it, and more people to buy a $30 pen.

Something like the Hero 616, it's popular enough that people seek them out, if someone can counterfeit them and take a few thousand sales that the original(ish... considering what a 616 copies, but isn't claiming to be) would have had, they'll do so.

Cost of reproduction vs sale price of the original is why we don't see a Montblanc 149 fake with an actual integrated piston filler but rather just a c/c twist piston. (and lack of worldwide demand and cost to reproduce is probably why we don't often see fakes of some other brands like Pilot or Sailor, even if they could easily be faked).

Plus the item to be copied would have to be recognizable enough by people who don't know enough about pens, and are seeking the best possible deal on a status symbol. Starting out, I knew that Montblanc existed, and I knew them to be an expensive brand, sort of like a Leica of the pen world (course while a vintage Leica may make an excellent rangefinder, it seems like mainly doctors and lawyers get them for mantelpieces). But I didn't know anything of Visconti or Aurora.

Also as someone said earlier, not much point in counterfeiting one of the nibs if the nibs are not commonly sold separately and not as much money in doing so unless there's an insane margin between what you'd pay between generic and original.

[Laura N]

I've yet to be convinced on that score. Yes there are *nockoffs* being made in China, but they are clearly that, not a counterfeit. The one claim of a counterfeit Lamy I've seen the pen itself was entirely destroyed making it impossible to verify, the evidence presented did *not* convince me. Counterfeiting high end modern C/C pens is a quick way to make a buck. But your 1950s Montblanc isn't counterfeit, and I'm highly suspicious of counterfeit low end pens. *shrug*

Actually, I'm convinced. I've seen very good evidence that there are counterfeit Safaris being sold on the auction site and also on the one named after a rainforest (by third party sellers). I'd only buy a Safari from an authorized dealer (including Amazon directly).

I know from my husband's work that a shocking amount of items are counterfeited, very much including things you'd never expect, and things that are by no means luxury items. This more and more includes mass market items. The Lamy Safari is probably the only mass market fountain pen. It's cheap and available to us in the west, but not to people in parts of Asia.

[Austin_Malone]

It was likely a flex nib sold with the limited edition Rembrandt calligraphy set. It's not really full flex and is about a fine size. This is very likely since to my knowledge Rembrandt nibs are not available separate from a pen. This would explain them looking exactly alike. It probably just has a custom nib grind.

[gerigo]

Actually what Tandaina said was right.

There is a difference between counterfeits, which are designed to deceive. They are purchased explicitly to give the owner the misguided impression they have an exact clone of the original purchased at a much lower price, versus replicas.

The role of the replica is much more interesting. They are usually made to give the people of a country or region access to a product that would otherwise have been either banned or not allowed to be imported. This phenomenon happened quite a bit during the 60's and 70's when there were a lot of replicas made behind the iron curtain. They can either be licensed like Lada through Fiat, or non licensed, like the Lamy copy. Today because of the internet and global retail, we now have easy access to these products.

I lived in China for 7 years, and have worked with many manufacturers who worked in that grey area. Many are trying to "legitimatize" their business by investing in design of original products today.

Coming back to the issue of whether the Visconti nib is a counterfeit, I would wager Visconti is too obscure to even catch the attention of a counterfeiter. The usual tactic of the counterfeiter is also a inordinate focus on appearances. Performance is less of a criteria for them, so they would not even bother to try and replicate a nib. Most counterfeit Montblancs have generic nibs, but very well copied bodies.

[Laura N]

Actually what Tandaina said was right.

There is a difference between counterfeits, which are designed to deceive. They are purchased explicitly to give the owner the misguided impression they have an exact clone of the original purchased at a much lower price, versus replicas.

The role of the replica is much more interesting. They are usually made to give the people of a country or region access to a product that would otherwise have been either banned or not allowed to be imported. This phenomenon happened quite a bit during the 60's and 70's when there were a lot of replicas made behind the iron curtain. They can either be licensed like Lada through Fiat, or non licensed, like the Lamy copy. Today because of the internet and global retail, we now have easy access to these products.

I lived in China for 7 years, and have worked with many manufacturers who worked in that grey area. Many are trying to "legitimatize" their business by investing in design of original products today.

Coming back to the issue of whether the Visconti nib is a counterfeit, I would wager Visconti is too obscure to even catch the attention of a counterfeiter. The usual tactic of the counterfeiter is also a inordinate focus on appearances. Performance is less of a criteria for them, so they would not even bother to try and replicate a nib. Most counterfeit Montblancs have generic nibs, but very well copied bodies.

I'm sure tandaina is always right. :) I'm just saying that I have seen counterfeit Lamy Safaris being sold by non-authorized dealers. These pens say Lamy on them. They come in a box marked Safari. They are listed online as a "Lamy Safari." They are designed and sold to fool the customer who thinks she is buying a real Lamy Safari. They are counterfeit.

I'm not talking about the Hero model that looks a bit like a Safari but is clearly marked with the Hero name and is sold as a Hero. That's every bit as legitimate as the real Lamy Safari. It doesn't have to be licensed at this point, at least under US law.

I know the difference between replica and counterfeit. I don't consider it a gray area, though, and under US law it isn't. You may have worked in that area in China, and I know there's a lot of money being made over there. But I'm here. So I know of companies that spend years, and lots of money, trying to protect their brand from unscrupulous manufacturers who counterfeit products and sell them under the counterfeited brand name. I know companies that have to deal with consumer complaints when the counterfeit [whatever] breaks, and the irate customer says, I'll never buy a [big brand name] product again. I've read about Aston Martin having to recall a lot of cars because because a manufacturer supplied a counterfeit Dupont plastic part in accelerator pedals, and it frightens me to think about that happening on a more widely sold car.

YMMV.

ETA: just in case, here's a link (http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/286424-bought-a-fake-safari/) to a thread on some of the counterfeit Lamy Safaris

[mmahany]

Actually what Tandaina said was right.

There is a difference between counterfeits, which are designed to deceive. They are purchased explicitly to give the owner the misguided impression they have an exact clone of the original purchased at a much lower price, versus replicas.

The role of the replica is much more interesting. They are usually made to give the people of a country or region access to a product that would otherwise have been either banned or not allowed to be imported. This phenomenon happened quite a bit during the 60's and 70's when there were a lot of replicas made behind the iron curtain. They can either be licensed like Lada through Fiat, or non licensed, like the Lamy copy. Today because of the internet and global retail, we now have easy access to these products.

I lived in China for 7 years, and have worked with many manufacturers who worked in that grey area. Many are trying to "legitimatize" their business by investing in design of original products today.

Coming back to the issue of whether the Visconti nib is a counterfeit, I would wager Visconti is too obscure to even catch the attention of a counterfeiter. The usual tactic of the counterfeiter is also a inordinate focus on appearances. Performance is less of a criteria for them, so they would not even bother to try and replicate a nib. Most counterfeit Montblancs have generic nibs, but very well copied bodies.

I'm sure tandaina is always right. :) I'm just saying that I have seen counterfeit Lamy Safaris being sold by non-authorized dealers. These pens say Lamy on them. They come in a box marked Safari. They are listed online as a "Lamy Safari." They are designed and sold to fool the customer who thinks she is buying a real Lamy Safari. They are counterfeit.

I'm not talking about the Hero model that looks a bit like a Safari but is clearly marked with the Hero name and is sold as a Hero. That's every bit as legitimate as the real Lamy Safari. It doesn't have to be licensed at this point, at least under US law.

I know the difference between replica and counterfeit. I don't consider it a gray area, though, and under US law it isn't. You may have worked in that area in China, and I know there's a lot of money being made over there. But I'm here. So I know of companies that spend years, and lots of money, trying to protect their brand from unscrupulous manufacturers who counterfeit products and sell them under the counterfeited brand name. I know companies that have to deal with consumer complaints when the counterfeit [whatever] breaks, and the irate customer says, I'll never buy a [big brand name] product again. I've read about Aston Martin having to recall a lot of cars because because a manufacturer supplied a counterfeit Dupont plastic part in accelerator pedals, and it frightens me to think about that happening on a more widely sold car.

YMMV.

ETA: just in case, here's a link (http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/286424-bought-a-fake-safari/) to a thread on some of the counterfeit Lamy Safaris

Which once again goes back to my post, the second in this thread..."A counterfeiter MAY replicate a $100 (assuming ~$150 retail) pen, but it's going to be a very poor fake. Replicating each detail of a pen (or any item) is not cheap. Consequently, most counterfeiters who copy <$500 pens are going to produce very low quality replicas and sell them to non-collectors. That's the only way they can make money."

The thread you shared as well as the 10-20 others I've seen on replica/fake Lamy Safari pens shows no evidence of a "Good" replica Lamy Safari. In each case, there were obvious (to a pen collector) discrepancies between the replica and authentic versions.

Now, I recognize that a non-pen collector might not spot these minor details. However, the OP has already stated that he has inspected the nib with both a 10x and 40x loupe.

Ultimately, there isn't a replica/fake (of any pen that retails for <$300) known to exist that could pass such a test.