My first PFM and also my first eBay dispute ... what a hot one! Hope it's worth it!

[lowks]

It all started from here: http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/10743-What-is-a-reasonable-price-to-pay-for-a-PFM-today?p=121681#post121681 (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/10743-What-is-a-reasonable-price-to-pay-for-a-PFM-today?p=121681#post121681). For the longest time I wanted to get my PFM and could not find one, so recently I saw this PFM auction (http://www.ebay.com/itm/261787453638?_trksid=p2060778.m1431.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT) on for one. I did a couple of bids, and it was the first time I tried out some sniping software and accidentally became the highest bidder. I sucked it up and decided to honor the deal and chalk it up to me not knowing about sniping software. I was looking forward to enjoying the pen. Little did I realize that the story was just beginning. Since the pen had the description “Crud buildup on nib”, I decided to send the pen to Grandmia pens for repair which I mentioned clearly to the seller. When grandmia pen's emailed me a days after I found out:


Pen was stuck at customs and I had to pay additional 32 pounds
The nib of the pen was bent and seems to have been adjusted.


Needless to say I was a bit peeved, look at the photo below of the nib:

17320

I sent an email to the seller of the pen using the email she used as paypal email telling her of the extra costs I had to pay and I got no response. I was really unhappy so I left her a less than stellar review on eBay and here is the response I got:

Dear kianseong,

The correct way to handle this was to let me know what happened before you left the unfair feedback. So unfair. I am no expert on this item and I took the pictures of all angles. Where was your responsibility in asking about these concerns Before you placed bids? I reported this action to eBay to have them try to remove this negative towards me. I would have worked with you like I had before when you asked me to send this item to another country other than your own. It should have been shipped to you first so you could have saved yourself extra fees for having it repaired. How old are you?

- vintiquestateservices

and my response was that I did send an email to her first but I got no response, plus what had my age got to do with anything and she responded:

Dear kianseong,

Okay, I never received any additional emails from you after you asked me to provide tracking info. I just went back to check any deleted messages I might have inadvertently deleted, but none there. You wrote:

"On the shipping if you check your email it actually cost me more as I got taxed."

Now how would I possibly know this would happen? I do not ship overseas that much and I do not know about these additional taxes and fees as I am still learning. So, again, I feel the feedback you left was an unreasonable action. If you had taken the time to read my feedback history, you might have came to some kind of realization that I might not be that person you are trying to make me out to be. I would have returned all fees and given your money back if you were dissatisfied with the results. If you had read my policy it states "money back guaranteed after 14 days".
This makes me not want to open my auctions to overseas clients because of this. It's not worth it as I pride myself on my feedback rating and so do any potential clients that may bid on any of my futue auctions.

The age reference? Yeah, I thought you might of been too young to realize that people in the real world tend to make genuine mistakes and an adult might have known this and to ask questions about any concerns before being too ready to defile somebody's integrity. Enjoy your pen.

Kind regards,
Judy Heyerly
dba Vintique Estate Services




I wrote back saying this:

Dear vintiquestateservices,

This is the email that I sent, which I retrieved from my mailbox:

Pen stuck in customs
Low Kian Seong <lowks@lowkster.com>

Mar 18 (2 days ago)

to heyerlyr
Hi,

Just to let you know the pen is stuck in customs in UK and needs an additional charge of £34.00 because it was not labelled "For Repair". I am going to pay for the additional charges imposed by customs.

Thanks.

The email used is: heyerlyr@msn.com

Did I get that email wrong ? I assumed that personally trying to reach out to you in your personal email would get a faster response.

You know what, I just felt bad because 2 things happened:

1. It reached UK and it got stuck in customs because the repairer claimed that the box was not marked as "For Repair", so I had to pay an additional 34 pounds for the customs.

2. The nib was slightly bent and this too I had to pay extra to get repaired. You said I did not bother to ask. I would argue how am I supposed to ask for something which I don't know about. You don't know what you don't know. I believed from your 100% reputation that I did not have to ask this although the picture was not really clear. This is the picture of the nib that the repairer sent to me. You can see from the nib picture that the nib was bent and adjusted.

I hope that you can understand the frustration too on my side, as I had to fork out additional unanticipated cost. That being said, if this is your livelihood, I am willing to forget everything and chalk it up my own bad luck. Kindly let me know if I can change the rating and I will change it to something less damaging and I will do it. I don't want to be responsible for other potential overseas customers loosing out. I am just an unhappy client that's all.

Thank you.



- kianseong



where in finally I got:

Dear kianseong,

Again, I never received this email. I have no reason to lie. I would of replied immediately. But you wouldn't know that just like I wouldn't know about how customs work. This is why I am now done with International buyers through eBay because their policy only works for the buyers and they don't support the sellers. It's wrong because people like me who only want the best for their clients go unnoticed their hard work and are considered the "bad guys". Look, it's already done. I would have worked all this out with you in the beginning of the problem if I had known. I must suck as a seller for not knowing all this.

I will have to live with this "hit" from you and just hope my future clients will realize some people just can't be happy no matter how you try and fix it.
Judy

- vintiquestateservices

Wow, that is my first time buying a fountain pen from EBay and that is probably going to be my last for a long long time. She insisted that I should have asked about the nib which I explained to her how was I supposed to ask about something I don't know plus she had a very good reputation. It's seriously just too scary out there.

[tandaina]

Customs are most definitely not the seller's responsibility. If you'd had it mailed to you (I assume you and seller are both in the US) and *then* sent it to Grandmia clearly labeled as "for repair" you would have avoided customs. Since it was sent straight from the seller customs taxed the sale value of the pen as if Grandmia had bought it which isn't really the seller's fault *at all,* nor her problem to correct.

Whether or not she had a clue what was wrong with the nib the right action would be to receive the pen yourself, inspect it for issues and then either return it if it wasn't "as advertised" or send it on to the repair person of your choice. Return it to her if you like, but she certainly shouldn't have to cover customs.

Most sellers (and I don't use eBay but do sell pens here) will *only* send a pen to the buyers Paypal address for our own protection. I certainly won't send anywhere else. She did you a favor and took a risk by sending it elsewhere. (In a dispute if the seller can't show shipment and delivery to the buyer's address paypal just refunds the buyer's money, period.)

[Jon Szanto]

There are a few issues here, but I'll just touch on some:

1. You seem to be surprised by the nib. I went and looked at the original listing and photos. There are a number of photos of the nib, and the damage is clearly visible there. It was not a surprise, or certainly shouldn't have been, with photos showing it that well. When you can't examine an object up-close and handle it, you have to be very diligent with every bit of information you have at your disposal. You didn't look at those photes carefully enough.

2. I have no idea where you are located, and why you had to send the pen to another country to have the repairs done. That it was stuck in customs doesn't have anything to do with the seller, does it?

3. You make vague references about being uncertain about how the sniping software/system works, but that is your responsibility.

The bottom line is that you are going to have a nice pen to write with. It wasn't a steal, but it doesn't appear (I don't know your repair costs) to be outrageously expensive. I think you would be hard-pressed to find many people that haven't both underpaid and overpaid for pens in their time of buying pens. It also seems like you tend to make decisions impulsively, and seek guidance after the fact. That will usually lead to problems.

At this point, enjoy the pen. Don't give up on any of this, consider it a learning situation and head forward!

[mhosea]

Yeah, I agree that the nib condition was photographically well-documented in the listing. I pointed it out, in fact, right here. (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/10743-What-is-a-reasonable-price-to-pay-for-a-PFM-today?p=117591&viewfull=1#post117591)

Here are clips from the shots in the eBay ad that clearly show the condition of the nib. These are used with permission.

17328

In general one is usually forced to regard antique dealers, estate sales people, and pawn shops as sources of superficial evaluations of pen condition only. They should be able to tell you about generic damage issues like cracks and gouges, but anything technical is a bit too much to expect. They generally take the view that what you see is what you get, and many (including this one) accept returns.

IMHO, the OP needs to revise their eBay feedback from negative to positive.

[mmahany]

A seller's perfect reputation is now tarnished for reasons outside of their control. What a shame.

As someone who occasionally sells on eBay, this thread infuriates me.

EDIT- The right thing to do at this point:
1.) Withdraw your negative feedback. The reasons you cited are your own fault, not the seller's
2.) Learn and understand how to use Ebay, auction sniping software, and your country's import tax laws.
3.) Give people a legitimate chance to respond before resorting to such drastic measures. People aren't always waiting by their computer for new emails and sometimes people overlook the occasional email.

[jar]

Glad all is now well but I don't see where the seller did anything to deserve negative comment or feedback.

[kirchh]

Frankly, the events described and the correspondence posted reflect positively on the seller.

--Daniel

[mhosea]

Frankly, the events described and the correspondence posted reflect positively on the seller.


I agree, and she seems to have taken it all very seriously. I hope we can convince kianseong to do the right thing here. I think we can all understand how expectations can be mis-calibrated and misunderstandings develop when a person is inexperienced and doing something for the first time. From kianseong's perspective, this whole experience has been a lot more expensive than wanted/expected from beginning to end. Every one of us can understand how frustrating that is because we've all probably all experienced the same thing in one context or another. But the seller didn't deserve a negative rating.

[sloegin]

I agree, and she seems to have taken it all very seriously. I hope we can convince kianseong to do the right thing here. I think we can all understand how expectations can be mis-calibrated and misunderstandings develop when a person is inexperienced and doing something for the first time. From kianseong's perspective, this whole experience has been a lot more expensive than wanted/expected from beginning to end. Every one of us can understand how frustrating that is because we've all probably all experienced the same thing in one context or another. But the seller didn't deserve a negative rating.

Quite right the seller didn't deserve a negative rating. The seller went out of their way, and against ebay/paypal policy, to ship the pen to a different address.

It is serious for the seller as the negative rating impacts the fees paid to ebay.

[lowks]

A seller's perfect reputation is now tarnished for reasons outside of their control. What a shame.

As someone who occasionally sells on eBay, this thread infuriates me.

EDIT- The right thing to do at this point:
1.) Withdraw your negative feedback. The reasons you cited are your own fault, not the seller's
2.) Learn and understand how to use Ebay, auction sniping software, and your country's import tax laws.
3.) Give people a legitimate chance to respond before resorting to such drastic measures. People aren't always waiting by their computer for new emails and sometimes people overlook the occasional email.

I need some help here, I wanted to withdraw, any idea how ? I asked her but got no response.

[lowks]

Okay, I have done that - Sent a revision request to the seller, and the lesson learned here is this:
1. Since I am a impulsive air head, don't buy from Ebay.
2. Sending for repairs is something hard to do

All in all I am still pretty unhappy about how things turned out. I just hope that the pen is so good it will over ride that.

[Jon Szanto]

I found this article (http://www.ecommercebytes.com/C/abblog/blog.pl?/pl/2014/8/1408185294.html) on why eBay buyers can't revoke negative feedback (only the seller can initiate the process). It can be done, but if you've already pissed off the seller, they might not be reading the emails. I hope things will work out, and I'm pretty certain you'll love the pen. I certainly do mine.

[sloegin]

A seller's perfect reputation is now tarnished for reasons outside of their control. What a shame.

As someone who occasionally sells on eBay, this thread infuriates me.

EDIT- The right thing to do at this point:
1.) Withdraw your negative feedback. The reasons you cited are your own fault, not the seller's
2.) Learn and understand how to use Ebay, auction sniping software, and your country's import tax laws.
3.) Give people a legitimate chance to respond before resorting to such drastic measures. People aren't always waiting by their computer for new emails and sometimes people overlook the occasional email.

I need some help here, I wanted to withdraw, any idea how ? I asked her but got no response.

I believe the seller needs to send you a feedback revision request.

[lowks]

I have already done that. So it's up to her now. She sends it then it goes away. The only loser from this is the one that did not look at things carefully.

[Jon Szanto]

The only loser from this is the one that did not look at things carefully.

Aw, come on, don't be too hard on yourself! We all have learned along the way, and usually with similar kind of stories. It isn't easy, buying things by just looking at a couple of photos, sometimes terrible photos. You look at a fuzzy pic and go "is that really what I think it is??". And sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't. Part of the process. Someday I'll tell you about the pen that I bid on and won, had it sent to me, and in less than 60 seconds I had snapped the pen into two pieces, never to be fixed again.

Well, actually, I guess I did just tell you. ;) Stay positive.

[lowks]

The only loser from this is the one that did not look at things carefully.

Aw, come on, don't be too hard on yourself! We all have learned along the way, and usually with similar kind of stories. It isn't easy, buying things by just looking at a couple of photos, sometimes terrible photos. You look at a fuzzy pic and go "is that really what I think it is??". And sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't. Part of the process. Someday I'll tell you about the pen that I bid on and won, had it sent to me, and in less than 60 seconds I had snapped the pen into two pieces, never to be fixed again.

Well, actually, I guess I did just tell you. ;) Stay positive.

Thanks, it makes me feel better. Finally at the end of this thread. I was excited about getting and being able to own a PFM. Plus I was so used to the way that people on FP forums who will usually point out the important flaws of the pens in the description rather than letting the photos do all the telling. It has really thought me a lesson about being careful.

[Chrissy]

I'm not going to go over everything again about ebay bidding, customs and taxes, and leaving impulsive feedback because that's been done and you probably already feel badly enough about it all.

One thing I would like to say is that when you buy something on ebay and you want to contact the seller, you should only ever do that via the ebay messaging system, and you should definitely not send any emails to a sellers PayPal email address.

You already know you could have worked with the seller here, in the event that the 'item received was not as described.' If your dealings with the seller hadn't been satisfactory, you could have opened an ebay dispute, but only because of the nib damage, and if it wasn't mentioned in the description. In case these things might potentially ever happen it is absolutely crucial to have any communications between seller and buyer done via the ebay messaging system. Then ebay can read them if they need to sort out a dispute.

[Scrawler]

Although a little on the expensive side, when all is said and done, that is going to be a helluva nice pen. I trust that when you enjoy using it, it will remind you to temper your responses, and keep you on an even keel. This kind of a pen will have more than just its value as a pen to you, it will contain important lessons that will enable your future life to be passed with greater ease.

[jar]

Just a heads up based on what you have said about impulsiveness.

Flushing a PFM is known as a career. It is not a pen that was ever designed to get cleaned and flushed. The feeder itself holds about a week or more worth of ink and expelling ink through the snorkel bypasses the feed completely. If you want to flush the pen you fill with water then wrap the nib in absorbent material and let all the fluid wick away. Often it only takes a few days (unless it is Sheaffer Peacock Blue; that takes forever).

Point two. Never put the pen in liquids and pull the plunger tube up. Always pull the plunger tube up before putting the snorkel in liquids and then one single push down, wait a long ten count, remove and screw the end cap back to retract the snorkel.

[mhosea]

Flushing a PFM is known as a career.

So true. The PFM design begs for a well-chosen, dedicated ink.

[Jon Szanto]

Flushing a PFM is known as a career.

So true. The PFM design begs for a well-chosen, dedicated ink.

+1 on both of those statements.

[lowks]

I have reversed the less than optimal feedback and everything is back hunky dory.

[Jon Szanto]

I have reversed the less than optimal feedback and everything is back hunky dory.

I think that is really great! Another very positive step, and this pen is going to stand for a lot of things done right.

[lowks]

Point two. Never put the pen in liquids and pull the plunger tube up. Always pull the plunger tube up before putting the snorkel in liquids and then one single push down, wait a long ten count, remove and screw the end cap back to retract the snorkel.

On this point, what happens when you pull the plunger tube up in liquid ?

[lowks]

Just a heads up based on what you have said about impulsiveness.

Flushing a PFM is known as a career. It is not a pen that was ever designed to get cleaned and flushed. The feeder itself holds about a week or more worth of ink and expelling ink through the snorkel bypasses the feed completely. If you want to flush the pen you fill with water then wrap the nib in absorbent material and let all the fluid wick away. Often it only takes a few days (unless it is Sheaffer Peacock Blue; that takes forever).



Sorry got a question here as well, is flushing of PFMs this long or for all snorkels ?

[Jon Szanto]

Point two. Never put the pen in liquids and pull the plunger tube up. Always pull the plunger tube up before putting the snorkel in liquids and then one single push down, wait a long ten count, remove and screw the end cap back to retract the snorkel.

On this point, what happens when you pull the plunger tube up in liquid ?

You know, I was thinking I could answer that, but I can't, and it is clearly stated in a lot of places to simply DON'T DO THAT! :) Probably one of the clearest text descriptions of how to fill a Snorkel is on this page at Richard Binder's site (http://www.richardspens.com/ref/fillers/fillers.htm); just scroll down to "Touchdown and Snorkel" fillers. You'll also find links to some good diagrams and whatnot about how this filling system works. It isn't called the most complex filling system ever for no reason!

[mhosea]

Just a heads up based on what you have said about impulsiveness.

Flushing a PFM is known as a career. It is not a pen that was ever designed to get cleaned and flushed. The feeder itself holds about a week or more worth of ink and expelling ink through the snorkel bypasses the feed completely. If you want to flush the pen you fill with water then wrap the nib in absorbent material and let all the fluid wick away. Often it only takes a few days (unless it is Sheaffer Peacock Blue; that takes forever).



Sorry got a question here as well, is flushing of PFMs this long or for all snorkels ?

Flushing a "regular" Snorkel suffers from the same issue insofar as the primary feed and sac are easy to flush, but the secondary feed is bypassed by flushing. If one plays by the rules, a regular Snorkel does indeed take a good long while to clean. But the Snorkel feed isn't as big as the PFM, and moreover, if you really wanted to, you could just unscrew the Snorkel nib and feed assembly from the grip section and then flush the secondary feed, toss it in the ultrasonic, and/or soak it, then screw it back on. The PFM isn't built like that.

If you draw up on the plunger while the secondary feed is below the surface of the water, negative pressure in the barrel could suck water into the pen barrel where it can make the spring rust. Nothing like that is possible with only the Snorkel tube immersed, but it's still best to get into the habit of drawing back the plunger with the nib and Snorkel tube in open air and then immersing the end of the tube before pushing down on the Touchdown tube. Note that if the pen has been inked, it will usually squirt a little bit out as the the Touchdown tube reaches full extension. Consequently, always keep your Snorkel tube pointed in a safe direction while it is extended. ;)

[jar]

Point two. Never put the pen in liquids and pull the plunger tube up. Always pull the plunger tube up before putting the snorkel in liquids and then one single push down, wait a long ten count, remove and screw the end cap back to retract the snorkel.

On this point, what happens when you pull the plunger tube up in liquid ?

See the above message (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/11062-My-first-PFM-and-also-my-first-eBay-dispute-what-a-hot-one!-Hope-it-s-worth-it!?p=121879&viewfull=1#post121879) with the added warning that if there is a leak in the sac or anywhere else for that matter it will also pull ink into the body that can rust the spring.

[david i]

This does drive home the point that buying at retail prices from reliable retailers is not always such a bad thing and that eBay bargain sometimes are not such bargains.

[checkrail]

This does drive home the point that buying at retail prices from reliable retailers is not always such a bad thing and that eBay bargain sometimes are not such bargains.

This is true to an extent, but in the course of the last year from well known, reputable dealers I have had: a Waterman 52 with a crack through the barrel thread, a P51 vac leaking though 'with new seals', a Conway Stewart with 'rare right-foot oblique' that was actually a horrible foot worn by a very heavy hand, an Esterbrook 'Transitional' where the J-bar had been displaced and punctured the new sac.
I have had stuff from general eBay sellers meanwhile with no comparable unnoted faults. At least there expectations are not too high, unlike with the preceding examples from vintage pen specialists.
Kind regards
Timothy

Edited for typography.

[Cob]

Reading that stuff about the Sheaffer's vacuum system serves to reinforce my favouring my Onotos: The original (1905) and the best!

Cob

[david i]

This does drive home the point that buying at retail prices from reliable retailers is not always such a bad thing and that eBay bargain sometimes are not such bargains.

This is true to an extent, but in the course of the last year from well known, reputable dealers I have had: a Waterman 52 with a crack through the barrel thread, a P51 vac leaking though 'with new seals', a Conway Stewart with 'rare right-foot oblique' that was actually a horrible foot worn by a very heavy hand, an Esterbrook 'Transitional' where the J-bar had been displaced and punctured the new sac.
I have had stuff from general eBay sellers meanwhile with no comparable unnoted faults. At least there expectations are not too high, unlike with the preceding examples from vintage pen specialists.
Kind regards
Timothy

Edited for typography.

Pens can degrade, and the most serious dealers can miss things. "Reliable and reputable" in my view is not meant to convey perfection of skill. It is meant to convey how those so labeled deal with adversity. And of course, even in the retail setting some do better than others.

I do note tangentially that firing off negative feedback on ebay should be a last resort.

regards

david

[mhosea]

I think the point is well taken with respect these competing strategies:

1. Buy an unrestored pen from eBay, send it to a restorer, and then have a restored pen.
2. Buy an unrestored pen from eBay, restore it yourself, and then have a restored pen.
3. Buy a "restored" pen from a random eBay seller, an individual who restores their own pens.
4. Buy a restored pen from a reputable dealer (can be on eBay--it's about who the seller is, not where they sell) with a warranty.

I have generally been a strategy #2 guy. If I have sold a pen that I restored, I was selling to a #3 guy (or #1 or #2 who simply discounted my restoration efforts), typically at a marginal improvement over the #1 or #2 price.

Anyway, if you are a strategy #2 person, you learn pretty quickly, and often the hard way, how to see the pictures in an auction. There is a learning curve, and you will end up buying "parts" instead of "pens" here and there. Buying on strategy #3 often leads to the discovery that things have not been done quite right (sometimes not at all). Strategy #1 carries all the same risks as strategy #2, so the idea of going in with a "surgical strike" and grabbing a bargain is a roll of the dice, except that a newbie buyer on surgical strike mission doesn't have a sense of the probability of different outcomes, and they lack the experience needed to analyze all the information that is available to them in the auction. In the best case you will get your bargain. In the worst case you will get parts that you have no use for. Most cases will work out to a restored pen at a total cost that may or may not compare favorably to strategy #4. But Strategy #4 has the virtue of everything being up-front. With the others, you don't really know how much the working pen actually costs you until the dust settles.

In this particular case, I saw a PFM-I on vacumania.com that might have been comparable in final cost when one ignores the customs charges (which must be present in both cases to one extent or the other because the buyer is importing the pen).

Consequently, as I said, the point is well taken that, if you are just looking to buy a particular vintage pen, you should give serious thought to buying from a reputable restorer, or retailer who works with such restorers, bearing in mind that it is hard to compare these numbers up front unless you really know your stuff.

[mustud52]

Just a heads up based on what you have said about impulsiveness.

Flushing a PFM is known as a career. It is not a pen that was ever designed to get cleaned and flushed. The feeder itself holds about a week or more worth of ink and expelling ink through the snorkel bypasses the feed completely. If you want to flush the pen you fill with water then wrap the nib in absorbent material and let all the fluid wick away. Often it only takes a few days (unless it is Sheaffer Peacock Blue; that takes forever).

Point two. Never put the pen in liquids and pull the plunger tube up. Always pull the plunger tube up before putting the snorkel in liquids and then one single push down, wait a long ten count, remove and screw the end cap back to retract the snorkel.

My one and only pfm thanks you for this advice.

[david i]

BTW, while I am an at least poseur pen dealer, I have bought thousands (no joke) of pens on ebay.

I just advise being cautious.

regards

david

[MY63]

I am not an expert on the pen side of things but I think you have done the right thing in the end.
I would suggest writing a letter with proof of purchase, repair receipts and proof of postage to yourself to customs and asking for a refund of the import duty and vat you might just get your money back.

[mustud52]

BTW, while I am an at least poseur pen dealer, I have bought thousands (no joke) of pens on ebay.

I just advise being cautious.

regards

david

I have purchased close to 100 fountain pens on eBay and I can say from experience that David has provided sage advice. Why have I purchased close to 100 pens on eBay? Because it can work well for those who use it well.