Pilot Custom Heritage 92 Upstroke and Left Stroke Problem

[ThirstyTurtle]

I just received a Pilot Custom Heritage 92 and I'm having some problems with it. The previous owner only inked it once, I've flushed like 8oz of dish soap water and 16oz of water through it (took forever) but the problem persists.

On down strokes and right strokes it writes PERFECTLY and way smoother than my Lamy Safari. However, on the up strokes and left strokes it hardly writes at all. I've attached a picture showing a comparison with the Safari:
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/03/27/f8d7306312ab0c4530e8fc18b1a30090.jpg

Here's a video:
https://vimeo.com/123459672

Any tips?

[Neo]

Are the tines aligned?

[ThirstyTurtle]

Don't have a loop but they appear to be by the naked eye. Does this seem like symptoms of misaligned tines? Maybe I need a loop....any suggestions of where I can buy one locally?

[Neo]

Does it feel scratchy when you write in certain directions?

[ThirstyTurtle]

Does it feel scratchy when you write in certain directions?
No it's SUPER smooth in every direction. Way way smoother than my Safari which has no flow problems with left and up strokes.

[Neo]

I have no more suggestions, though I'm sure someone else can help. Good luck.

[ThirstyTurtle]

Thanks, Neo, hopefully someone has some tips. It's not THAT bad to write with, but not acceptable for a $100+ pen to have no ink laid down with left strokes or up strokes.

[pica pica]

I'd say it's either slight nib misalignment or some sort of baby-bottom issue. Either way you'll need a hand lens to confirm. I use 10x but it's good to have greater magnification. If not online, you should be able to get a basic lens from a toy shop.

[ThirstyTurtle]

I'll check out a loupe set on Amazon so I can investigate. Seems like if it had the baby-bottom issue or misaligned tines that it would have subpar performance on all strokes but I'm certainly a novice so I may be wrong. I will say that while it's much smoother than my Safari, the Lamy writes much more consistently and even though I always thought of it as "smooth", it seems catchy compared to the pilot.

I know aligning the tines is relatively easy to do yourself but the baby-bottom issue seems like a scary one for a novice to tackle so I hope that's not the problem.

What power loupe(s) should I look into?

[earthdawn]

Yea its hard to tell from the pics and video even....

But a loupe is always a great investment.

http://www.andersonpens.com/product-p/loupe-30-60.htm

Something along those lines will really hep to see whats going on

[mhosea]

Pilot likes to adjust their nibs so that the gap narrows all the way to a close at the tip of the nib. That leads to dry upstrokes. I don't think Japanese writers need to use many up-strokes, though I wouldn't really know. I just know that when I watched the Pilot manufacturing video where a technician was testing a pen, they didn't seem to need any. Anyway, IMHO, the optimal adjustment is a slight gap at the tip. If the slit tapers to where the tines almost touch, but don't, I think your dry upstrokes will go away. The asymmetry between the right and left strokes will usually indicate a misalignment of the tines or perhaps a slight rotation in your grip. I didn't really watch carefully enough to be sure, but my guess would be a slight misalignment. So, just two things: 1. introduce a slight gap, 2. precisely align the tines. If there's a third, watch your rotation.

Different nibs can have different limitations in how you can go about it, but generally there's more than one way to adjust the gap at the nib tip. The method that professional nibmeisters usually seem to suggest first is to grasp the edges of the "wings" of the nib and pull sideways as if trying to pull the tines apart. I don't remember what Richard says here:

http://www.richardspens.com/pdf/workshop_notes.pdf

but there's the link so you can read it for yourself. If I over-shoot it and introduce a wider gap than I want, I try criss-crossing the tines. That usually brings it back.

[ThirstyTurtle]

Awesome explanation and tips!

I suspected I was rotated a bit so I tried twisting it every which way but still get dry left strokes.

The dry left strokes don't bother me much as I hardly ever go left unless crossing something out multiple times; it's the up strokes that are really frustrating.

I'll read that link and try separating the tines a bit and report back. I'm also going to order those loupes in order to check the tine alignment.

[ThirstyTurtle]

YAY!
The tine spreading worked!
The up strokes are still lighter and thinner than the down strokes but the important part is it doesn't skip and consistently writes up and left! When I signed my name or did consistent cursive "f"s before it would often have skips on the up strokes but not anymore!

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/03/28/98fff48a3ef360d2bdd7fbbcadc93209.jpg

It's still not PERFECT but it's awfully close and I'm so much happier than yesterday! I may try a bit more spreading to see if I can get the up strokes as wet as the down strokes.

Thank you all SO SO much for your help wow!

[Flounder]

I've read a few reddit posts on skipping CH92s, my broad was the same. My broad was worse than yours, ink starvation on the up and left strokes. I reground that nib, the tipping was a bizarre overpolished upright rugby ball hanging off the tines. The next Pilot I buy will definitely be after requesting macro shots of the tipping.

[mhosea]

The up strokes are still lighter and thinner than the down strokes

This is usually going to be the case with a nib that doesn't write like a nail because friction and whatever downward pressure there is tends to close the tines and press them against the feed on an up-stroke, whereas a down-stroke tends to open things up. One way I like to assess a pen after adjusting it is to hold the pen loosely by the end of the barrel and try to write with it in such a way that the pen's own (partial) weight is all the pressure it gets. I can't write letters, and it's easy to rotate the nib accidentally, but I can make it go up, down, left, right, and in loops. Looks like a 2 year-old did it. :) IMHO, the ink should flow consistently that way. If it doesn't, something needs fixing.

[Woody]

Interesting tips from Mike. Here's my solution for tight nibs, and I usually get a few when I order mediums and broads. I pass a shim thru the nib slit several times then test the pen checking for tine alignment each time.. works for me.

[ThirstyTurtle]

Interesting tips from Mike. Here's my solution for tight nibs, and I usually get a few when I order mediums and broads. I pass a shim thru the nib slit several times then test the pen checking for tine alignment each time.. works for me.
What do you use as a shim that's small enough? Like a piece of paper or two?

[earthdawn]

Interesting tips from Mike. Here's my solution for tight nibs, and I usually get a few when I order mediums and broads. I pass a shim thru the nib slit several times then test the pen checking for tine alignment each time.. works for me.
What do you use as a shim that's small enough? Like a piece of paper or two?

brass sheets

http://www.gouletpens.com/gpc-brasssheets/p/GPC-BrassSheets

[ThirstyTurtle]

Well I went to Harbor Freight today and bought this 5-piece loupe set:
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/03/30/58673486fc3a787ecd91e43a79694d5b.jpg

Certainly they're not the best loupes in the world but for $3 you can't go wrong! I was worried they wouldn't be strong enough since the previously posted link was to 30x and 60x loupes. However, I discovered that the HF ones are stackable! Required holding it with your hand as opposed to just your eye but as long as you stack the weakest loupe first and strongest last, they work great! I stacked the 7x in the 10x and voila, 70x loupe (I assume that's how it works). Theoretically this set would be 2x-2100x if that's how it works but I didn't try any further than 70x.

Just wanted to share that great deal if you have a local HF.

Upon my inspection I found that the right tine was lower (closer to paper) than left tine. A small tweak and they're perfect now.

Between the tine alignment and slight slit opening, this is now an incredible writer and I freaking LOVE LOVE LOVE it!

[mhosea]

I actually use some like this a lot, 2.5x, 5x, and 10x. The only problem with stacking them is that the lenses are plastic and not of very high quality, but it can work. I use something else when I really need to see what is going on, but now that I'm presbyopic, I find these useful for actually working on things and seeing what I'm doing while I'm doing it. I bought a headset binocular magnifier once and didn't find it comfortable to use, eye-wise. I can't sa that I'm entirely comfortable doing my Colonel Klink imitation with one of these in, but at least my eyes per se are relaxed, if not my facial muscles.

[Flounder]

I do this too, though in a tremendously inelegant way. Colonel Klink 10x loupe in my eye, and my 40x illuminated loupe held over that in my left hand, pen in the right.

[SteveE]

Pilot likes to adjust their nibs so that the gap narrows all the way to a close at the tip of the nib. That leads to dry upstrokes. I don't think Japanese writers need to use many up-strokes, though I wouldn't really know. I just know that when I watched the Pilot manufacturing video where a technician was testing a pen, they didn't seem to need any. Anyway, IMHO, the optimal adjustment is a slight gap at the tip. If the slit tapers to where the tines almost touch, but don't, I think your dry upstrokes will go away. The asymmetry between the right and left strokes will usually indicate a misalignment of the tines or perhaps a slight rotation in your grip. I didn't really watch carefully enough to be sure, but my guess would be a slight misalignment. So, just two things: 1. introduce a slight gap, 2. precisely align the tines. If there's a third, watch your rotation.

Different nibs can have different limitations in how you can go about it, but generally there's more than one way to adjust the gap at the nib tip. The method that professional nibmeisters usually seem to suggest first is to grasp the edges of the "wings" of the nib and pull sideways as if trying to pull the tines apart.

but there's the link so you can read it for yourself. If I over-shoot it and introduce a wider gap than I want, I try criss-crossing the tines. That usually brings it back.

Pilot isn't the only culprit, here. I've had many new pens of many brands that had this problem (slit too tight). I think that the modern nib/feed manufacturers leave them that way from the factory, and unless you purchase your pen from a seller who tests each pen, you are at risk of having this happen. Good to know how to remedy the situation, as this seems to make up the majority of my new pen issues. (Now that we've apparently gotten past the "plastic feeds that won't feed" phase of a couple of years ago. . . )

Very well stated, Mike. Thanks.

[inklord]

Nib-slit flossing with a brass shim didn't do the trick on my Pilot Stargazer though, which had the same problem until I spread the tines similar to Mike's advise... now the nib is a real charmer! The good news is, however, that such a moderately 'soft' nib will reward you with a delightful writing experience, enhanced shading and responsiveness; I look at the adjustment work almost as a worthy investment by now :)

[mhosea]

Nib-slit flossing with a brass shim didn't do the trick on my Pilot Stargazer though, which had the same problem until I spread the tines similar to Mike's advise...

My experience has been the same. The good thing about shimming with anything of reasonable thickness for the job is that it tends to make a minimal change--hard to overdo it. If it does enough, then you're happy. The bad thing is that usually doesn't accomplish anything at all (except to clean your nib slit of any gunk at the end). It's more likely to work with nibs that aren't "soft". I once had a Waterman 2A that could be thought of as semi-flex. You could shim it all day long, and it would bounce back to exactly where you started every time.

Shimming to widen the gap seems like a direct approach to the problem, but because the nib is a flat sheet of metal that is bent, it is a very inefficient way of introducing a tine-spreading force. The nib slit is a kerf from a saw blade when it is created. If the nib were still flat, how would you close such a thing? You could not do so without introducing some curvature into the sheet of metal. The nib is stamped into a roughly cylindrical shape, and the tines are pushed together by forcing them down towards the center line of the feed. The wings are there because a twist is needed to bring them back to parallel (otherwise the two halves of the tip would make a V when you look at the nib head-on). You might think that from here, shimming the gap is pushing the tines directly apart, but when that really happens, it is always bad because the slit no longer tapers all the way, rather tapers for awhile and then widens (yes, I've done that). Then you have to fix that without breaking off the tipping (yes, I've done that). Fortunately, that rarely happens. Instead, the nib accommodates the spreading force by bending the tines upwards a tiny bit. That is to say, in most cases, shimming the gap is an indirect way of forcing the tines up, away from the feed's center line.

[SteveE]

That is to say, in most cases, shimming the gap is an indirect way of forcing the tines up, away from the feed's center line.

. . . And, IIRC, that is exactly what the late Frank Dubiel sometimes advised us to do. He said to use both of your thumbnails and force the tines of the nib up and apart gently, then re-try the nib. Repeat as needed. This works, but one must take great care not to open up the slit too much, lest you have a gusher of a nib that is two sizes wider than it is marked (and yes, I've done THAT).

Also remember that when Richard Binder was selling new pens and "binderizing" their nibs, he normally included a note card with each pen, on which it warned the user that since the nib had been "Binderized" it would likely write a wider stroke than other similar pens that had not been adjusted.

[ZębataZebra]

Last week I was in a similar situation as the OP. I got a brand new 92 CH with an Fine-Medium (FM) nib. It was super dry and scratchy out of the box. I had zero experience with adjusting FPs, but I did a little research and I decide to try and adjust the nib. My method was to take the nib off, and to gently flex it several times, so as to open it up a bit. At first, I noticed some improvement (less scratchy, more flow), but it was still unsatisfactory: in particular, I observed the same problem as the OP did (with left strokes and up strokes). So I repeated the flexing process once more. Now I can actually see a very fine gap between the nib's tines all the way to the tip (there was not a gap at all at the tip before). The pen writes smoothly and it is quite wet. I am finally happy with how it writes, and sort of proud with being able to adjust it myself. Thank you!

Attached is a writing sample done after adjustment. Noodlers Black ink on Xerox Multipurpose Plus paper.

[stub]

I have had lots of problems like that with my Pilot pens with many non-Pilot inks.

X-Feather sounds almost like a worst case scenario.

You might clean the pen and try it with Pilot or Iro ink just to see what you got there, you might be shocked with the result having adjust the nib for X-feather.

I have 2 new CH912 and a C74. Both of which hated a long list of inks but all of which are plenty wet and consistent with Pilot Blue, or Asa-Gao or what have you. It is bizarre. I have never seen anything like it. Night and Day. There must be something about those feeds and those ink formulas.