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ChrisC
May 14th, 2015, 01:07 AM
Something that has put me off buying Visconti's non-C/C pens is that a lot of them are made in ways that are unconventional and, to me, "cheapen" the pen.

The most obvious examples are the "piston fillers" like the Divina, Diamond Jubilee LE, Homo Sapiens midi, etc. The captured converter has the worst sides of both C/C fillers and true piston fillers. Captured converters have neither the easy maintenance of C/C pens nor the ink capacity and durability of piston fillers. I don't understand why they don't just allow you to unscrew the barrel of a Homo Sapiens and let you replace the converter if it breaks. It's basically like taking a standard C/C pen and gluing the barrel to the section and just hoping that the converter lasts forever.

A less-known example, because these pens don't get taken apart often, are, what I call, the captured converter power fillers.

For example, the Visconti Cosmos, Homo Sapiens, Wall Street LE, and several others, have "power-fillers" that seal against a plastic tube inside the pen. My educated guess is that this is less durable long-term, and it also has a much reduced ink capacity.

Another example is their use of ink windows that are separate plastic pieces that are glued to the section and barrel of the pen. Breakages can happen here, and this also seems bad for long-term durability. Vintage pens like the Parker Big Red Duofold or the Montblanc 134 have parts that either unscrew or come apart with heat. Only shellac is used to bind pieces together. The result is a pen that can survive decades, and be easily repaired, whereas if a Visconti breaks, as in the below picture, replacement is the only option. Repair is out of the question.

So what do you guys think of Visconti's various unconventional pen building methods?

18883

Rusty888
May 14th, 2015, 06:08 AM
Pretty sure I love my Wall Street LE double reservoir power filler

kaisnowbird
May 14th, 2015, 09:00 AM
Oh my!! That is too sad to witness. :cry: My condolences. Will Visconti be able to replace this for you?

Another reason I like my CC fillers.

ChrisC
May 14th, 2015, 09:21 AM
That's not my pen, but that's the reason I've stuck to C/C pens from Visconti. I like these pens but I can't abide their construction.

I don't understand why they can't stick to the old rules of everything being either screw fit, friction fit, or shellac. The use of epoxy or glue in fountain pen construction bothers me. I don't like that Pelikan does the same thing with gluing the sections to the barrels, but I accept it because they seem to do a good job of it. In any case, it seems to me that vintage pen construction is vastly superior.

Sammyo
May 14th, 2015, 10:46 AM
I think a key factor here is that over the years, manufacturing mentality has changed within the industry, like many consumable goods these days. Vintage/older pens were built to last; be heirlooms and handed down from generation to generation. Modern pens are consumable goods, "if it never breaks, they will never need a new one... and that means sales drop!".

However this is a niche market and news of bad experiences travel fast. This can have a negative affect on a company’s image, just look at Noodler's love them or hate them relationship with the fountain pen masses. But if a pen needs some tweaking and mods, but lasts for generations with a few mends and reworks along the way, so be it! But a catastrophic failure (I have seen the same failure on a Monteverde Napa that fractured through the "ink window", and that IS a C/C pen) leaves bad mental scars and a person will likely never go back again. Without all of the information behind this, it is a bad looking image that could have caused because the guy fell down a flight of stairs with the pen in his pocket! It is very difficult to build a reputation in this world; but incredibly easy to damage one.


So what is my point??? I'm not even sure now...

Old pens WERE made better, but the market and manufacturing ideology was different. A manufacturer can make millions of pens with only 50 failures in the field, but with the internet and social networking these days the knowledge of those issues becomes wide spread very quickly. It is a small market after all! Visconti make MANY pens with no issues and some people love their design and filling systems... some people don't.

Thank you for raising this issue, I had never seen it on a Visconti before, but do we know all the factors that led to it? What was the user doing that resulted in this? Was it normal or abusive behaviour to a "fine writing instrument"? And I agree that you raised some good points regarding their build and assembly styles vs. competitors.

tandaina
May 14th, 2015, 10:57 AM
Yup, exactly my issue with Visconti. I've got a capture converter "piston filler" that I hate. Their regular C/C pen I've got I really enjoy, but they need to stop half assing their filling systems.

Neo
May 14th, 2015, 11:14 AM
Great point Sammyo,

I would also like to add that nothing is perfect and that bad things do happen. The more important question for judging a company is how they deal with the situation. Do they leave the customer high and dry or do they do their best to make things right?

Jeph
May 14th, 2015, 12:12 PM
.. I don't like that Pelikan does the same thing with gluing the sections to the barrels, but I accept it because they seem to do a good job of it...

Pelikan does not glue the sections to the barrels of modern Pelikans. They use ultrasonic welding. I have watched them do it.
They might do that on the cheap school pens but not the rest.

Edit: But I agree that a captive converter is pretty lame. Profit is still king and I can see the business case for doing so, as their brand is strong and if their customer service takes care of problems they have no real reason to do differently.

Laura N
May 14th, 2015, 12:54 PM
I guess I'm out of the mainstream here. Construction methods don't enter into the equation for me, if it's not a constant problem and there's a decent warranty. I'd actually rather not have to take apart and tinker with a pen. I have no interest in how a company engineered a particular pen -- not that others shouldn't, just that I don't. Nor does the filling system turn out, after much experimentation, to have any bearing on my enjoyment of a pen. For me there's only how it writes and how it feels in my hand, with bonus points for how it looks.

I find Visconti pens are usually too large for me, and their nibs don't suit me. That's why I've never bought one. If I enjoyed writing with that kind of wet and bouncy nib, and I liked larger pens, I'd probably be a Visconti fan. Many of their designs are attractive to me, and many of their materials are stunning.

ETA: I changed "some" to "many"; these are good-looking pens. :)

Sammyo
May 14th, 2015, 01:54 PM
One more additional point, Visconti do offer both systems, complex and C/C, so they have covered all bases of the market allowing people to buy the style they prefer :)

(Sub note, I do not own a Viconti pen)

mhosea
May 14th, 2015, 05:26 PM
The most obvious examples are the "piston fillers" like the Divina, Diamond Jubilee LE, Homo Sapiens midi, etc. The captured converter has the worst sides of both C/C fillers and true piston fillers. Captured converters have neither the easy maintenance of C/C pens nor the ink capacity and durability of piston fillers. I don't understand why they don't just allow you to unscrew the barrel of a Homo Sapiens and let you replace the converter if it breaks. It's basically like taking a standard C/C pen and gluing the barrel to the section and just hoping that the converter lasts forever.


Is it really as small and cheap as a converter? I'm sure it's possible to design a small piston filling mechanism that would last as long as any larger piston filler you might name, but if they're cheaping out and utilizing something that is no better than a typical converter, then that would be a problem.

Crazyorange
May 14th, 2015, 05:40 PM
I've got 3 converter (one removable two contained) and one piston Visconti pens. They are easy to clean. Unscrew nub unit - flush out barrel with syringe.
Cleaning has never been a problem. As a pen user I'm with Laura. I have no interest in taking a pen apart. If something failed I would send it in for repair. I can't see any of my pens having a problem though. Everything functions well. Maybe a touch of silicone off and on to keep thing functioning?

I would love to hear from Tracy lee. She's got a ton of experience with her visconti pens.

My only problem with one of my pens....the nib was a gusher. Huge blops of ink. I had Dan smith fix that. Now it's perfect but a nib on an expensive pen shouldn't blop ink.

tandaina
May 14th, 2015, 06:32 PM
The most obvious examples are the "piston fillers" like the Divina, Diamond Jubilee LE, Homo Sapiens midi, etc. The captured converter has the worst sides of both C/C fillers and true piston fillers. Captured converters have neither the easy maintenance of C/C pens nor the ink capacity and durability of piston fillers. I don't understand why they don't just allow you to unscrew the barrel of a Homo Sapiens and let you replace the converter if it breaks. It's basically like taking a standard C/C pen and gluing the barrel to the section and just hoping that the converter lasts forever.


Is it really as small and cheap as a converter? I'm sure it's possible to design a small piston filling mechanism that would last as long as any larger piston filler you might name, but if they're cheaping out and utilizing something that is no better than a typical converter, then that would be a problem.
I've taken mine apart with Bryant of Pentime's help. It is a plain old converter. Exactly the same as the one that came with my Opera Elements.

sharmon202
May 15th, 2015, 06:00 PM
Something that has put me off buying Visconti's non-C/C pens is that a lot of them are made in ways that are unconventional and, to me, "cheapen" the pen.

The most obvious examples are the "piston fillers" like the Divina, Diamond Jubilee LE, Homo Sapiens midi, etc. The captured converter has the worst sides of both C/C fillers and true piston fillers. Captured converters have neither the easy maintenance of C/C pens nor the ink capacity and durability of piston fillers. I don't understand why they don't just allow you to unscrew the barrel of a Homo Sapiens and let you replace the converter if it breaks. It's basically like taking a standard C/C pen and gluing the barrel to the section and just hoping that the converter lasts forever.

A less-known example, because these pens don't get taken apart often, are, what I call, the captured converter power fillers.

For example, the Visconti Cosmos, Homo Sapiens, Wall Street LE, and several others, have "power-fillers" that seal against a plastic tube inside the pen. My educated guess is that this is less durable long-term, and it also has a much reduced ink capacity.

Another example is their use of ink windows that are separate plastic pieces that are glued to the section and barrel of the pen. Breakages can happen here, and this also seems bad for long-term durability. Vintage pens like the Parker Big Red Duofold or the Montblanc 134 have parts that either unscrew or come apart with heat. Only shellac is used to bind pieces together. The result is a pen that can survive decades, and be easily repaired, whereas if a Visconti breaks, as in the below picture, replacement is the only option. Repair is out of the question.

So what do you guys think of Visconti's various unconventional pen building methods?

18883

Quite an analytical and objective observation of pen structure. Thanks for your observations.

Tracy Lee
May 16th, 2015, 04:50 PM
Oh my!! That is too sad to witness. :cry: My condolences. Will Visconti be able to replace this for you?

Another reason I like my CC fillers.
Yes they will. Not a problem.

Tracy Lee
May 16th, 2015, 04:55 PM
Great point Sammyo,

I would also like to add that nothing is perfect and that bad things do happen. The more important question for judging a company is how they deal with the situation. Do they leave the customer high and dry or do they do their best to make things right?
Visconti's customer service, for me, has been nothing short of outstanding. Short of postage I have never paid a dime for pen fixes - not when my blue ripple broke in half, not when I admitted the damage was due to my error on a pen - never. It can be slow when it goes to Italy but mine have come home polished and perfect. Contrast Delta - worst customer service and repairs on the planet. Bar none.

Tracy Lee
May 16th, 2015, 05:19 PM
I will assert as I always have that all lines of pens have their issues. Mont Blanc has had a bad reputation (at least at some point) for their pens durability (for lack of a better term), as an example. Omas piston fillers can be truly awful and hard to even use - my one experience very unfavorable. And using a pen that needs a rubber bladder/sac? Are you kidding? I know those are mainly vintage but . . . No thanks.

Captive converters suck and Visconti should stop using them altogether. I agree on that point. There is no room for them at their price point. Their power fillers are outstanding - make no mistake thinking otherwise on that. They hold gobs of ink and are reliable. And easy to clean despite assertions to the contrary. Unscrew the nib and clean out. Dry with a q-tip if you want to immediately refill. I have had a few nibs that needed tweaking when they arrived which is really irritating but . . . Shrug . . . Once adjusted it is a beautiful experience for me every time.

So, you can focus on things about Visconti or other expensive pens that suck or tick you off, or you can decide what is tolerable to you for the overall experience depending on what you feel is important in the pen buying activity. I can't think of why I would be dissuaded from buying Visconti despite some of their quirks. I love how they look, how they feel, and love the palladium nibs. I can afford them and I can tweak ehat needs tweaking. But that is just me. Generally, things are not made as well these days as they once were. That applies to cars and lots of other expensive things. Cheaper ones are no better. TWSBI for example. So many cracking and breaking issues, why bother? Because folks love them and customer service is great. Shrug. Personal choices keep them all in business.

Just my two cents. Visconti is not alone in its quality control sometimes, or in strange/undesirable choices for filling systems. I hate that none of them can be eyedroppered. But I still love them and will still buy them. And with so many brands and types out there, get what suits your own taste and tolerance levels. If Visconti's issues bother you, skip them. Plenty of other amazing pens and pen companies. Hate the captive converter? Like me, skip the models with those if you can.

mhosea
May 16th, 2015, 06:06 PM
And using a pen that needs a rubber bladder/sac? Are you kidding? I know those are mainly vintage but . . . No thanks.

I can understand not preferring pens with sacs, but if I held up a Parker "51" Aerometric (PVC sac, I know) to compare on the points of proven durability, proven reliability, and ink capacity, I would not be kidding.

Tracy Lee
May 16th, 2015, 07:17 PM
And using a pen that needs a rubber bladder/sac? Are you kidding? I know those are mainly vintage but . . . No thanks.

I can understand not preferring pens with sacs, but if I held up a Parker "51" Aerometric (PVC sac, I know) to compare on the points of proven durability, proven reliability, and ink capacity, I would not be kidding.
Which reinforces my point about preferences rather nicely. :-)

Laura N
May 16th, 2015, 08:04 PM
The most obvious examples are the "piston fillers" like the Divina, Diamond Jubilee LE, Homo Sapiens midi, etc. The captured converter has the worst sides of both C/C fillers and true piston fillers. Captured converters have neither the easy maintenance of C/C pens nor the ink capacity and durability of piston fillers. I don't understand why they don't just allow you to unscrew the barrel of a Homo Sapiens and let you replace the converter if it breaks. It's basically like taking a standard C/C pen and gluing the barrel to the section and just hoping that the converter lasts forever.


Is it really as small and cheap as a converter? I'm sure it's possible to design a small piston filling mechanism that would last as long as any larger piston filler you might name, but if they're cheaping out and utilizing something that is no better than a typical converter, then that would be a problem.

With total respect for everyone else's different preferences, that wouldn't be a problem for me. I agree that a captured converter is not a great filling system -- I prefer a regular c/c filling system. But if I liked the pen, a captured converter wouldn't stop me from buying it. I would assume that if mine broke I would send it in for repair.

And I actually haven't noticed a longevity problem with converters, either. I've had a Waterman Laureat since the early 80s, and its original converter still works. Of course it's nice to have the option to replace that myself if it ever breaks. But after 30 years I think it's proven pretty durable. A Parker Vacumatic diaphragm won't last that long, for example, and that's not easy to repair yourself either.

I'm not sure it's fair to assume that a brand is "cheaping out" by choosing a particular filling system. It may just be what they thought works with the pen's design. If you want a c/c pen, you have to design the pen so that the user has access to those internals. Perhaps that doesn't work with the materials they were using -- like a Homo Sapiens. Or maybe they thought it looked better that way. If you look at most of MB's limited editions, and at Pelikan's Cities series, and at many other very expensive pens, you'll find many expensive piston fillers that lack ink windows. That is to my mind suboptimal, because I like to know how much ink I have left. But I assume it was done for aesthetic reasons.

Again, that's just me, and if you prefer something else, that's fine, too, of course.

mhosea
May 16th, 2015, 08:15 PM
Which reinforces my point about preferences rather nicely. :-)

I don't prefer them.

tandaina
May 16th, 2015, 08:17 PM
Partly for me the issue with these captive converters sold as a piston filler is that Visconti is changing a premium for them as if they were something other than a C/C. I have no issue with converters but dang it don't pretend it is something else and charge me extram

Laura N
May 16th, 2015, 08:20 PM
Partly for me the issue with these captive converters sold as a piston filler is that Visconti is changing a premium for them as if they were something other than a C/C. I have no issue with converters but dang it don't pretend it is something else and charge me extram

Yeah I sure get that.

ChrisC
May 16th, 2015, 09:23 PM
It's really stupid for a Homo Sapiens's (steel version) barrel to not be able to be removed like on a regular C/C pen. I just can't fathom why Visconti does that.
I like the Opera/Wall Street series dearly, though, so don't misunderstand this as hating on Visconti.

The captured converter doesn't help anybody. Non-aficionados likely don't care if a pen is C/C or piston filled. Aficionados like us on this forum see right through it. What's the point?

KBeezie
May 17th, 2015, 04:19 PM
I wonder if I should worry any about my Divina Desert Springs Limited Edition (which uses a vac "pull and push" filler, and not the power fillers like the non-LE version), especially since I have the ink window with a little silver ring with windows thru that but it doesn't seem like there's much going on between the ink window and the section like maybe a few milimeters worth of bonding.

http://pens.kbeezie.com/content/public/upload/divinauncapped1_0_o.jpg

http://pens.kbeezie.com/content/public/upload/divinawindow_0_o.jpg

http://pens.kbeezie.com/content/public/upload/divinasection_0_o.jpg

That little ring moves every time I uncap or cap the pen, ie: rotates pretty freely (just not loose enough to do it on it's own just when the cap pushes against it when capping/etc).

youstruckgold
May 20th, 2015, 06:24 AM
I wonder if I should worry any about my Divina Desert Springs Limited Edition (which uses a vac "pull and push" filler, and not the power fillers like the non-LE version), especially since I have the ink window with a little silver ring with windows thru that but it doesn't seem like there's much going on between the ink window and the section like maybe a few milimeters worth of bonding.

http://pens.kbeezie.com/content/public/upload/divinauncapped1_0_o.jpg

http://pens.kbeezie.com/content/public/upload/divinawindow_0_o.jpg

http://pens.kbeezie.com/content/public/upload/divinasection_0_o.jpg

That little ring moves every time I uncap or cap the pen, ie: rotates pretty freely (just not loose enough to do it on it's own just when the cap pushes against it when capping/etc).

Seriously Karl, you don't REALLY have a problem... you just wanted to show us what a beautiful pen it is and how great it looks in your fabulous photographs! :)

penstaking
October 27th, 2015, 01:14 AM
Happily, I am coming to this thread quite late. What was the original post about? An 'aficionado' (that must leave me out as I am only a collector and possess a certain expertise only in regard to Italian stilographic pens) has complained about recent Visconti captive converter fillers. Unlike millions of people around the world, then, you are dissatisfied with this system which Visconti apparently uses; hence it's a non-issue, i.e., don't buy them. I have six Visconti (miniscule number compared to many) with various filling systems; they have all served me well for between 10 and 25 years. And I own a Montegrappa Extra that is almost 20 years old which uses the captive system and I expect to enjoy it problem free for another 20 before bequeathing it (probably) to a non-aficionado.

ChrisC
October 27th, 2015, 10:58 AM
I stick with Visconti's C/C fillers.

I really like Visconti's aesthetics, such as their beautiful materials and faceted Opera series, but I think their mechanical prowess leaves much to be desired. So, I stick with C/C pens, where all the mechanics (nib, feed, and converter) are produced by more mechanically able companies.

KBeezie
October 29th, 2015, 06:37 AM
Seriously Karl, you don't REALLY have a problem... you just wanted to show us what a beautiful pen it is and how great it looks in your fabulous photographs! :)

Well the issues/annoyances (including flow/nib, filling) were annoying enough that I no longer own it and have sold it several months back at a slight loss. Found the construction/feel/quality/filling/nib of the Aurora Afrika LE to be much better.

True the Viscontis are beautiful, but that doesn't do me much good if they keep annoying me.

Bogon07
October 29th, 2015, 06:13 PM
Seriously Karl, you don't REALLY have a problem... you just wanted to show us what a beautiful pen it is and how great it looks in your fabulous photographs! :)

Well the issues/annoyances (including flow/nib, filling) were annoying enough that I no longer own it and have sold it several months back at a slight loss. Found the construction/feel/quality/filling/nib of the Aurora Afrika LE to be much better.

True the Viscontis are beautiful, but that doesn't do me much good if they keep annoying me.

That is a bit sad to hear but there is no point keeping an expensive pen if it aggravates you whenever you use it.

I recently purchased a regular Desert Springs with the bizarre push/pull turn captive converter filling system and was at first a little disappointed with the performance and use of that and the Palladium nib but it has improved overtime. The material is absolutely stunning in real life and the feel of the pentagonal spiral twist of the barrel is unique.

Llewellyn
October 30th, 2015, 12:27 AM
Seriously Karl, you don't REALLY have a problem... you just wanted to show us what a beautiful pen it is and how great it looks in your fabulous photographs! :)

Well the issues/annoyances (including flow/nib, filling) were annoying enough that I no longer own it and have sold it several months back at a slight loss. Found the construction/feel/quality/filling/nib of the Aurora Afrika LE to be much better.

True the Viscontis are beautiful, but that doesn't do me much good if they keep annoying me.

That is a bit sad to hear but there is no point keeping an expensive pen if it aggravates you whenever you use it.

I recently purchased a regular Desert Springs with the bizarre push/pull turn captive converter filling system and was at first a little disappointed with the performance and use of that and the Palladium nib but it has improved overtime. The material is absolutely stunning in real life and the feel of the pentagonal spiral twist of the barrel is unique.


I also have a regular Desert Springs and think it's a great pen. To address the specific topic of this thread maybe I'm just easily pleased or not discriminating enough but I don't understand all the angst about whether a pen uses a converter, captured converter or piston, a sacs or whatever. To me as long as a pen fills reliably and can be cleaned it doesn't bother me what method the manufacturer uses for filling it.

I'm an unashamed Visconti fan - they make lovely and different pens. I'd rather have the worst Visconti than the best Montblanc