cursive italic nib

[newrisingsun64]

So i got my Omas ogiva back yesterday with a cursive italic nib on it (from Mr. Mottishaw) the nib is pretty scratchy, is there any way to smooth the nib out? Or is that just the nature of Italic nibs to be scratchy? I like the line variation on it i just dont like the scratchiness of the nib is there a nib comparable to this type of nib? any thoughts would be greatly apreciated. thanx!!

[Jon Szanto]

Have you *ever* used an italic nib before? My first thought is "pilot error", not that Mottishaw didn't do a good job. Most people who first use it are pressing too hard, or don't have the correct angle on the pen. I would suggest lightening up any pressure until it is as light as you can write, and then vary the angle, tilting the back of the pen up and down until you find the 'sweet spot'. You should also be careful to have the nib on the paper without any rotation, so that when you move left-to-right, it is in a perfectly straight line. If the pen is rotated one way or another, the leading corner of the italic grind can catch on the paper.

Those are my thoughts. Take some time to get used to it before either looking for something else or, worse, doing something to the nib itself. If, after a few days of use and no joy, contact nibs.com and tell them of your concerns.

[ac12]

To follow up on Jon, the paper and ink also has a lot to do with how the pen feels.
- Think of ink as lubricant for the nib to slide on the paper. Not enough ink = more friction = scratchy feel. So you have to have enough ink flow to lube the nib, without so much that it creates a mess. I think John test his pens with Sheaffer Skrip ink. A dryer/thicker ink will have less ink flow.
- You should use SMOOTH paper, HP Premium 32# is a commonly recommended paper. Some of the papers in the stationary/department stores are really JUNK to write on. The surface is rough to the fingers and worse to the pen. So if you rotate the pen, as Jon said, the corner of the nib will scratch into the paper, and on less than smooth paper, it will really feel scratchy.

[tandaina]

So i got my Omas ogiva back yesterday with a cursive italic nib on it (from Mr. Mottishaw) the nib is pretty scratchy, is there any way to smooth the nib out? Or is that just the nature of Italic nibs to be scratchy? I like the line variation on it i just dont like the scratchiness of the nib is there a nib comparable to this type of nib? any thoughts would be greatly apreciated. thanx!!

What do you mean by "scratchy"?

An italic nib *can* be just as smooth as any other. But an italic has a smaller sweet spot than say a stub, and the edges of the nib tend to be "sharp" so if you aren't holding it at the proper angle it can catch the paper. None of those things are scratchy, those describe a sharp nib with a small sweet spot.

A scratchy nib is one with rough tipping, or where the tines are not properly aligned, such a nib *has* no sweet spot where it just glides.

I own quite a few of John's nibs. Because I rotate my pens I buy oblique italics, otherwise the angle where I old my pen causes it to catch the paper constantly. So the short answer is no, an italic nib should not be scratchy. The long answer is: the issue could be that you need an oblique grind, or that you need to change the angle of nib to paper, or you need to lighten your pressure, or you didn't really want that sharp a nib, etc.

An italic *can* be made less sharp by grinding the shoulders down, they get rounded a bit making htem less prone to catching. It is something John can and will do when you order an italic nib if you ask for it (italic with shoulders softened, otherwise known as a cursive italic).

[newrisingsun64]

Yes this is my first italic nib ( it is a cursive italic). as for the paper im using its a pad of the rhodia, bloc Rhodia N 19

[newrisingsun64]

if i was to have the shoulders ground down so the nib is a bit smoother would that effect the line variation at all? If i was to go with an oblique cut would it change varitaion in line widths at all?

So i got my Omas ogiva back yesterday with a cursive italic nib on it (from Mr. Mottishaw) the nib is pretty scratchy, is there any way to smooth the nib out? Or is that just the nature of Italic nibs to be scratchy? I like the line variation on it i just dont like the scratchiness of the nib is there a nib comparable to this type of nib? any thoughts would be greatly apreciated. thanx!!

What do you mean by "scratchy"?

An italic nib *can* be just as smooth as any other. But an italic has a smaller sweet spot than say a stub, and the edges of the nib tend to be "sharp" so if you aren't holding it at the proper angle it can catch the paper. None of those things are scratchy, those describe a sharp nib with a small sweet spot.

A scratchy nib is one with rough tipping, or where the tines are not properly aligned, such a nib *has* no sweet spot where it just glides.

I own quite a few of John's nibs. Because I rotate my pens I buy oblique italics, otherwise the angle where I old my pen causes it to catch the paper constantly. So the short answer is no, an italic nib should not be scratchy. The long answer is: the issue could be that you need an oblique grind, or that you need to change the angle of nib to paper, or you need to lighten your pressure, or you didn't really want that sharp a nib, etc.

An italic *can* be made less sharp by grinding the shoulders down, they get rounded a bit making htem less prone to catching. It is something John can and will do when you order an italic nib if you ask for it (italic with shoulders softened, otherwise known as a cursive italic).

[tandaina]

if i was to have the shoulders ground down so the nib is a bit smoother would that effect the line variation at all? If i was to go with an oblique cut would it change varitaion in line widths at all?

So i got my Omas ogiva back yesterday with a cursive italic nib on it (from Mr. Mottishaw) the nib is pretty scratchy, is there any way to smooth the nib out? Or is that just the nature of Italic nibs to be scratchy? I like the line variation on it i just dont like the scratchiness of the nib is there a nib comparable to this type of nib? any thoughts would be greatly apreciated. thanx!!

What do you mean by "scratchy"?

An italic nib *can* be just as smooth as any other. But an italic has a smaller sweet spot than say a stub, and the edges of the nib tend to be "sharp" so if you aren't holding it at the proper angle it can catch the paper. None of those things are scratchy, those describe a sharp nib with a small sweet spot.

A scratchy nib is one with rough tipping, or where the tines are not properly aligned, such a nib *has* no sweet spot where it just glides.

I own quite a few of John's nibs. Because I rotate my pens I buy oblique italics, otherwise the angle where I old my pen causes it to catch the paper constantly. So the short answer is no, an italic nib should not be scratchy. The long answer is: the issue could be that you need an oblique grind, or that you need to change the angle of nib to paper, or you need to lighten your pressure, or you didn't really want that sharp a nib, etc.

An italic *can* be made less sharp by grinding the shoulders down, they get rounded a bit making htem less prone to catching. It is something John can and will do when you order an italic nib if you ask for it (italic with shoulders softened, otherwise known as a cursive italic).

Oblique does *not* give line variation, neither does it change how much variation you get. It is used *only* to correct for people who rotate their pens. Richard Binder has a good writeup I believe on what left and right foot oblique is and who should use them.

Yes, softening the shoulders *will* affect your line variation. A stub doesn't give as much variation as a cursive italic, which doesn't give as much as an italic because the stub is "rounder" at all its angles including those shoulders.

I'd look at the nib closely under a magnifying lens and make sure the tines are aligned. Then I'd do a lot of practicing, varying angle and how you hold your pen. See if you can find the sweet spot. If you can't contact John, Nibs.com has great customer service and may be better able to diagnose what your particular issue is.

[mtnbiker62]

I feel your pain. Through a series of fortuitous events, I recently ended up with 3 cursive italic nibs. I tried everything, and just couldn't write with them. I tried varying the angle I was holding the pen, the angle I was rotating my paper, everything. One of them was obviously out of alignment, and so it went off to a nibmeister. He also "softened" it, as you describe. When it came back, it was really usable for me, and quickly became one of my favorite nibs, but is more of a stub now. After writing with it for a bit, I went back to one of the two remaining cursive italics, and, lo and behold, I can also write with it now. It's not what I would call "comfortable", and I still need a lot of practice, but I can write with it. I was actually able to write an entire letter with it the other day, so there's hope! :) The nib is now in a pen that I find very comfortable, so I think that is helping also (possible placebo effect?). So to echo what others have said, make sure you have good paper, and a well-lubricated ink, and practice, practice, practice.

[ac12]

If you live near a pen club or other pen folks, try to meet. Someone there could take a look at the pen, and see how it write. Sometimes it helps to see in person how someone else writes to make a diagnosis. Example, I use a Lamy 1.1 CI nib to write script/cursive where some people seem to have trouble doing that. So then it is a matter of figuring out what I do that they do not do, or do differently.

[newrisingsun64]

not sure if there are any around here im in the california area
If you live near a pen club or other pen folks, try to meet. Someone there could take a look at the pen, and see how it write. Sometimes it helps to see in person how someone else writes to make a diagnosis. Example, I use a Lamy 1.1 CI nib to write script/cursive where some people seem to have trouble doing that. So then it is a matter of figuring out what I do that they do not do, or do differently.

[ac12]

not sure if there are any around here im in the california area
If you live near a pen club or other pen folks, try to meet. Someone there could take a look at the pen, and see how it write. Sometimes it helps to see in person how someone else writes to make a diagnosis. Example, I use a Lamy 1.1 CI nib to write script/cursive where some people seem to have trouble doing that. So then it is a matter of figuring out what I do that they do not do, or do differently.

OK, where in Calif do you live? It's a BIG state.

If in Northern Calif, the SF Pen Posse meets in Millbrae. In fact the next meet is on June 7th, check the clubs section.
Also the SF Pen Show is in Aug 28-30 in Redwood City.

[Jon Szanto]

There are pen gatherings in LA, Orange County, and San Diego as well.

[newrisingsun64]

Forgive me for getting back to this thread so late, got busy doin stuff around the house. I live in torrance ca, so if anyone has any info on pen gatherings in my area let me know thx!!

[Jon Szanto]

Forgive me for getting back to this thread so late, got busy doin stuff around the house. I live in torrance ca, so if anyone has any info on pen gatherings in my area let me know thx!!

Ok, I'm just about out of suggestions, but I do have some thoughts after that location info...

I'm guessing you aren't wanting to get it back to John at nibs.com for work, so this leaves, for me, two options:

1. There is a pen group that meets, to the best of my recollection, down in the Irvine area, one of the research / industrial parks; I think it is a monthly gathering. If this is of interest, let me know and I'll send msgs out to get info.

2. It isn't just across the block, either, but a big resource in terms of looking at your pen and giving some aid in knowing if it is all good is the venerable Fred Krinke at The Fountain Pen Shop in Monrovia. He has decades and decades of experience, and is the nicest person. Google them for the address and phone #, and if it is the way you want to go, give them a call to make certain of hours. I've actually driven from San Diego to go see Fred and browse all his stuff, lots of vintage.

Anyway, that is my $0.02. Up to you now, and let me know if you want to find that pen group south of you.

[newrisingsun64]

Forgive me for getting back to this thread so late, got busy doin stuff around the house. I live in torrance ca, so if anyone has any info on pen gatherings in my area let me know thx!!

Ok, I'm just about out of suggestions, but I do have some thoughts after that location info...

I'm guessing you aren't wanting to get it back to John at nibs.com for work, so this leaves, for me, two options:

1. There is a pen group that meets, to the best of my recollection, down in the Irvine area, one of the research / industrial parks; I think it is a monthly gathering. If this is of interest, let me know and I'll send msgs out to get info.

2. It isn't just across the block, either, but a big resource in terms of looking at your pen and giving some aid in knowing if it is all good is the venerable Fred Krinke at The Fountain Pen Shop in Monrovia. He has decades and decades of experience, and is the nicest person. Google them for the address and phone #, and if it is the way you want to go, give them a call to make certain of hours. I've actually driven from San Diego to go see Fred and browse all his stuff, lots of vintage.

Anyway, that is my $0.02. Up to you now, and let me know if you want to find that pen group south of you.
i have no problem seding the nib back too john, its just that he is going to be on vacation for the first part of summer, he wont be back for work until the beginning of july. So thats not an option atm. the fountain pen shop in monrovia sounds like the more feesible option atm.
if you could get me the info for the pen gatherings in irvine it would be most aprecaited, maybe someone there could give me some pointers too.
ill check back in the morning im gonna go crash out.
thx for your help much apreciated

[Robert]

Oblique does *not* give line variation, neither does it change how much variation you get. It is used *only* to correct for people who rotate their pens. Richard Binder has a good writeup I believe on what left and right foot oblique is and who should use them.


Perhaps it depends on who does the grinding (?), but my left oblique nibs by John M. do provide nice line variation. Pen-related nomenclature can sometimes be confusing (to me, at any rate). Check this link and look at the writing sample for the left oblique nib: http://www.nibs.com/Fountain-Pen-Nib-Customizations.htm

[Sailor Kenshin]

I wonder why people who want to try an italic don't first go to a Safari or Nemosine, just to see what it's about.

[Jon Szanto]

I wonder why people who want to try an italic don't first go to a Safari or Nemosine, just to see what it's about.

Or a $9.00 Plumix.

[tandaina]

I wonder why people who want to try an italic don't first go to a Safari or Nemosine, just to see what it's about.

Well to be fair neither the Safari nor the Nemosine have a real italic nib. At least the Safari nib I have is untipped and I'd call it a stub at best. A real italic/cursive italic that you get from John still has tipping material and is much, much, much sharper. Those pens are great to test a *stub* but don't feel a thing like my actual italics or cursive italics.

[Jon Szanto]

I wonder why people who want to try an italic don't first go to a Safari or Nemosine, just to see what it's about.

Well to be fair neither the Safari nor the Nemosine have a real italic nib. At least the Safari nib I have is untipped and I'd call it a stub at best. A real italic/cursive italic that you get from John still has tipping material and is much, much, much sharper. Those pens are great to test a *stub* but don't feel a thing like my actual italics or cursive italics.

And to continue to be fair, it will get you thinking, and practicing, the concept of proper orientation of the nib to the paper. A round-ball, standard nib can write at many angles and rotations, but even these simpleton, stubbish nibs will start to give a new person the realization of holding the pen a particular way. No, not nearly as severe an experience as a true italic, but a step in that direction. And steps are important.

[newrisingsun64]

yah know, the pen and the nib i got is what i had money at the time for (i already have 2 stub nibs), please dont turn this thread into a debate. please just stick to the topic at hand thx. not trying to disrespect anyone just want to focus on the topic at hand which is italic nibs, not the purchases i made

[Laurie]

I too was interested in trying an Italic nib being a relatively new fountain pen user. I decided to buy a Lamy 1.5 italic for my Al-star as the nib was only $15 from Goulet. It worked beautifully from the word go and gave a smooth italic cursive handwriting. Big wide down strokes and thin side strokes. My handwriting looked great in this style. I just read Taindana's post about probably not being a genuine italic and I did examine the tip and there is no sign of any tipping material there. I am not sure that I would venture further as I am very happy with this nib as it is.

[brunico]

Italic is about the cut/grind of the nib: quills don't have tipping, Mitchell dip pens don't have tipping, and Pentel even made a nib out of plastic, but we can call them all genuine italic nibs, along with untipped Osmiroid nibs and many others.

[Sailor Kenshin]

yah know, the pen and the nib i got is what i had money at the time for (i already have 2 stub nibs), please dont turn this thread into a debate. please just stick to the topic at hand thx. not trying to disrespect anyone just want to focus on the topic at hand which is italic nibs, not the purchases i made


My mistake. I inferred, from the wording in your post, that you had no experience with italic nibs.

[dneal]

Oblique does *not* give line variation, neither does it change how much variation you get. It is used *only* to correct for people who rotate their pens. Richard Binder has a good writeup I believe on what left and right foot oblique is and who should use them.


Perhaps it depends on who does the grinding (?), but my left oblique nibs by John M. do provide nice line variation. Pen-related nomenclature can sometimes be confusing (to me, at any rate). Check this link and look at the writing sample for the left oblique nib: http://www.nibs.com/Fountain-Pen-Nib-Customizations.htm

Your nibs have variation not because they're oblique, but because they're stub/italic nibs ground at an oblique angle. Factory obliques have all but disappeared, and you mainly see them on vintage German pens. Those obliques (at least the several that I have and many others that I've seen) do not give variation from the shape of the nib tip.

See Richard Binder's primer on nibs (http://www.richardspens.com/?page=ref/nibs/primer.htm)

[Robert]

Your nibs have variation not because they're oblique, but because they're stub/italic nibs ground at an oblique angle. Factory obliques have all but disappeared, and you mainly see them on vintage German pens. Those obliques (at least the several that I have and many others that I've seen) do not give variation from the shape of the nib tip.

See Richard Binder's primer on nibs (http://www.richardspens.com/?page=ref/nibs/primer.htm)

Thanks for the clarification. As I said, the nomenclature can be confusing.

[Laurie]

Here is a sample of my Lamy Italic 1.5 nib on Rhodia paper. Noodlers Burgundy and a Lamy Al Star. Love it.http://fpgeeks.com/forum/images/attach/jpg.gifhttp://fpgeeks.com/forum/images/attach/jpg.gif

[newrisingsun64]

So it seems i just needed to find the sweet spot to write with, really loving the nib know that ive found the sweet spot. thx for all tips!!

[gerigo]

One thing important to realize is that cursive italic is not used to write cursive?! Yep that's true.

When I bought my first cursive italic nib, thanks to a very smart pen store owner who saw the potential in my handwriting capabilities, I only wrote in a cursive hand. I could barely write with the cursive italic nib for many months because the edges were so sharp. Today I have since developed both an italic hand as well as a cursive hand. I purely use cursive italics and formal italics to write italic. I find writing cursive hand with anything outside of a find italic simply not a great match.

[ac12]

@gerigo
If your nib has sharp corners and edges, it is an italic nib, not a cursive italic (CI) nib.

I view the Lamy italic nib as a 'cursive italic.' It does not have the sharp corners and edges of a true italic, and it is not as rounded as a stub. So in the continum of stub to italic, the Lamy is someplace in the middle (where the CI nib lives). I use my Lamy nib for cursive writing just fine.