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Armstrong
June 7th, 2015, 09:00 PM
Has anyone ever attempted to modify a standard stainless steel nib into a flex nib?

I have been tossing around the idea of taking a nib, something like a Goulet's #6, and strategically thinning it to make it flex. I was thinking of using a conical stone to remove steel from the side of the nib up to the slit but not into the slit. This would leave a strip of steel next to the slit untouched so that the slit's integrity is unharmed. The steel removal would be a horizontal line across the nib just below the breathing hole. One would have to be careful to not heat the nib to the point of annealing it and remove the spring from the steel. Clamping it to a piece of steel to act as a heat sink should handle the heat.

Think it would work or am I missing something fundamental?
+

Jon Szanto
June 7th, 2015, 09:12 PM
I'm going to answer in a rather oblique way, but I think it is important: have you had a lot of experience with vintage flexible nibs? Have you written with a lot of variations of such, from pens that at best are semi-flex to the gold nibs that can only be called "wet noodles"? Have you written with the many fine and flexible nibs of the teens and twenties (1900 variety), such as the nibs on venerable Waterman's?

I ask that because it is important to have a benchmark, and to have a feel - in your eye and in your hand - for what a truly flexible nib is like in operation. And I ask it because there are people making products with steel nibs that are called Flex and can only be considered such if you are some kind of Eastern bloc strongman. Popeye arms are required. IOW: not flex.

I'm kind of guessing - though I could be wrong - that the above might be one of the things that you call "missing something fundamental".

Armstrong
June 7th, 2015, 09:40 PM
I don't see an 'answer' in that post or even a useful comment.

Jon Szanto
June 7th, 2015, 09:51 PM
I don't see an 'answer' in that post or even a useful comment.

Fine.

I think it might work, but only to a very limited and somewhat useless degree, when compared to an actual flexible nib. It also appears that you are missing something fundamental, but if you won't give more background, I won't be able to say for certain.

Look, it's all about perspective. Some people think a Noodler's Ahab is a flex pen; other people think a Waterman No. 7 with a Pink nib is a flex pen. In a way, they are both technically 'right', but unless you've experienced both of them, you may not realize how wrong a right answer can be.

Knock yourself out. People have been hacking steel nibs for a number of years now, the first prominent one coming to mind being Pendleton Brown's "Angel Wings" mod, and I'm certain there are others, possibly earlier. No harm done in removing metal from a $15.00 nib. It's fun, and may yield some interesting result. All of that, though, revolves around what *you* bring to the table, too.

ChrisC
June 7th, 2015, 10:04 PM
Jon is simply trying to be helpful, as most members of this forum would be. Correct me if I am wrong, Jon, but I believe that you're trying to say that the OP needs to have an idea of what kind of flex is being sought.

Many people say that certain nibs are flexible, but they are not if compared to certain vintage nibs.

Marsilius
June 7th, 2015, 10:08 PM
I thought Jon was obliquely but clearly saying, "Yes, your plan might indeed be 'missing something fundamental.'" I personally am clueless on making something flexible. I always imagined there is something related to how one makes double reeds, which indeed does have to do with balancing spine and rails (sides) and that elusive "sine wave" from back to to front that goes from thick to thin. Or does it have to do with tempering and softening up the metal in general?
(I once made a nib flexible by dropping it: even though it was fixed, it was never quite the same, and I am not sure its accidental flex was a good thing.)


But a Goulet nib is not so expensive for making a mistake or two on trying. If you are a record-keeping kind of person, it would be interesting to see pictures along your stages. There is not so much out there on how to do this, is there?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPzHWM_2qIg
http://www.marcuslink.com/pens/aboutpens/ludwig-tan.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_bNRrPk5MY

Good luck and surely someone else will have had some experience.

Jon Szanto
June 7th, 2015, 10:09 PM
Thanks, Chris, that's pretty much it. I usually take approximately 3,548,611 words to say what most people can say with 20.

Marsilius
June 7th, 2015, 10:12 PM
Oops, Jon beat me to his own punch. Actually, take a look at double reed making and adjustment on youtube, and you might see some useful tips for adjusting flexibility. Crazy idea maybe, but so are most double reed players. There, I said it.

00Photo
June 8th, 2015, 08:44 AM
Why not start with a #6 FPR or Noodlers flex nib that is already somewhat flexible? I modded these to be more flexible.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/393/18324007220_c180dd5236_b.jpg]
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/530/17857231483_bcfee30c6e_b.jpg

Marsilius
June 8th, 2015, 09:13 AM
Why not start with a #6 FPR or Noodlers flex nib that is already somewhat flexible? I modded these to be more flexible.


Is there ONE standard "by-the-book" way one makes a nib more flexible?

Wile E Coyote
June 8th, 2015, 12:05 PM
Read Jon's post again...then wash, rinse, repeat. He's actually trying to help and it may take a while before what he said sinks in but your answer is in there.

Now let me try: To answer your first question; Yes, many times. All I ever ended up with is a springy nib that flexed more than it did before but would never be considered flexible. Like Jon said (in a somewhat convoluted way, but you'll get used to it), you need a reference before you start.

Your proposal of using the conical stone will not necessarily add flex. What it will do is make the nib less stiff. Flexibility in a FP nib is more than springiness. It's the tines separating in a controlled manner and returning (quickly) back to their original state. Add to that that every truly flexible nib I've seen varies it's thickness from tip to heel. The curvature of the nib also varies in two directions; tip to heel and wing to wing. Not to mention the metallurgy and hand working of the gold which affects flex. Even tipping materials are different in modern nibs.

Another factor is ink supply. Every old wet noodle or truly flexible nib I've run across has had a hard rubber feed. Probably cut by hand by some guy who had been doing it for years and tuned to the pen in which it was installed. The modern nib that approaches flexibility is the Pilot FA (14k not steel), suffers from poor ink supply when flexed.

There's a ton of info out on the interweb for you to find all the failed attempts at trying to add flex to modern nibs. Everything that cuts or grinds away parts of nibs may increase flexibility but will not make a nib truly flexible.

Ok, now to answer your last question: No, I don't think it will work. Yes, you are missing a few fundamentals.

If you really want to make a modern flexible nib. Get some gold, learn the metallurgy and wash, rinse, repeat until it works.

If you just want to play with a flexible nib try a dip nib. There are plenty of steel dip nibs around that are truly flexible.

Scrawler
June 8th, 2015, 11:05 PM
Learning about the different alloys of both gold and steel nibs, and about the shapes and tempering, is great fun and worth a few years experimenting. Flex means a fairly broad range of things, including the width, ease of splitting the tines and snap back. You can easily end up with something that is uncontrollable. Jon has given excellent advice, and Wile E Coyote has mentioned something important, about feeds. This pen has a steel nib:
http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/xx153/FPWriter/fp2.jpg

I had to grind the feed myself. I was fortunate that I was able to get 4 full bars of hard rubber to cut my own feeds.

I have built flex nib units for Esterbrooks, and have had to carve additional ink channels. This Esterbrook also has a steel nib and a hand made feed, and you can see that the manner in which it flexes, is quite different to the Wearever example. Both of these ended up with bifurcated ink channels which open up when the nib lifts away from the feed to get more ink to the nib.
http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/xx153/FPWriter/fester1.jpg

I recommend experimentation, and being fully prepared for disappointment. One thing you can do, if you can get your hands on a laser cutter, or a very fine diamond wheel is to cut a line from the shoulder of the nib towards the breather hole in a V arrangement, but be warned it will weaken the nib, and you will have to experiment to get the angle and depth of cut right.

Jon Szanto
June 8th, 2015, 11:07 PM
Like Jon said (in a somewhat convoluted way, but you'll get used to it)...

Hey, I resemble that remark! :angry:

Sailor Kenshin
June 9th, 2015, 05:41 AM
Read Jon's post again...then wash, rinse, repeat. He's actually trying to help and it may take a while before what he said sinks in but your answer is in there.

Now let me try: To answer your first question; Yes, many times. All I ever ended up with is a springy nib that flexed more than it did before but would never be considered flexible. Like Jon said (in a somewhat convoluted way, but you'll get used to it), you need a reference before you start.

Your proposal of using the conical stone will not necessarily add flex. What it will do is make the nib less stiff. Flexibility in a FP nib is more than springiness. It's the tines separating in a controlled manner and returning (quickly) back to their original state. Add to that that every truly flexible nib I've seen varies it's thickness from tip to heel. The curvature of the nib also varies in two directions; tip to heel and wing to wing. Not to mention the metallurgy and hand working of the gold which affects flex. Even tipping materials are different in modern nibs.

Another factor is ink supply. Every old wet noodle or truly flexible nib I've run across has had a hard rubber feed. Probably cut by hand by some guy who had been doing it for years and tuned to the pen in which it was installed. The modern nib that approaches flexibility is the Pilot FA (14k not steel), suffers from poor ink supply when flexed.

There's a ton of info out on the interweb for you to find all the failed attempts at trying to add flex to modern nibs. Everything that cuts or grinds away parts of nibs may increase flexibility but will not make a nib truly flexible.

Ok, now to answer your last question: No, I don't think it will work. Yes, you are missing a few fundamentals.

If you really want to make a modern flexible nib. Get some gold, learn the metallurgy and wash, rinse, repeat until it works.

If you just want to play with a flexible nib try a dip nib. There are plenty of steel dip nibs around that are truly flexible.

I have seen someone on Youtube who makes amazing flexible nibs out of plastic soda bottles. Always wanted to try that...but again, gotta fit it to the feed, and will the feed keep up?

Armstrong
June 21st, 2015, 05:51 PM
Well, although there was useful information, to a limited extent, in the first answer. I found tone somewhat slighting which I found surprising, especially in a 'help' forum. The same information could have been presented in a more neutral or friend helping friend presentation and really should have been. By no means do I expect to develop a 'Waterman' level nib by experimenting on a production steel nib. Such nibs must be designed and carefully quality controlled in production. You cannot expect to take a lower quality nib and modify into a high quality nib of a different functional type. That is just common sense, and from me, engineering experience and did not need to be pointed out in the manner it was. Neither is it necessary to have broad experience in nib performance at all levels of quality and cost before one would begin to experiment on their own. If that were the case, very little development in any arena would occur. So, no matter how many people defend the post, the intent is clear and I do not appreciate it.

However, I greatly appreciate the practical suggestions offered by others, thank you.

Laurie
June 21st, 2015, 11:50 PM
I think your reaction to Jon's post was a little over the top and I think you will find he is always one of the first to answer posts in a variety of the forum areas and I am sure he was trying to be helpful. He has given me heaps of useful advice about my earlier enquiries about purchasing a flex pen and I took his good advice and I am now waiting for some old dip flex nibs so that I can gain experience on their use before deciding if I want to spend much more money on a nib that might not be what I expected and might not be something I can use.
I am sure his intention was to help you. I have found all his replies extremely helpful and no doubt he is very experienced in this area. Maybe he doesnt express his posts the way you would expect but he has a great way of getting his point over. Just take it for that.

Scrawler
June 22nd, 2015, 07:02 AM
I strongly encourage experimentation. It helps to gave a goal in mind, but even if you do not, and just want to see what happens, the best learned lessons are the hard ones that involve effort and mistakes. I would encourage you to grind and cut nibs to see what happens. Mount your nibs on a heat sink and cut diagonal lines into the shoulders and grind out half moons from the body and show us your results. We all learn when people experiment. For your heat sink try using BMS bars with a curvature identical to that of the nib. It is soft enough for the grinder and diamond saw to cut into. Make the cuts of different depths in each nib you work on to see the effect. I suggest using oil or oil/water emulsion in a constant stream over the surface as you cut. This will avoid annealing the nib, so that you do not need to temper it afterwards. You will need to clamp the nib very tightly to the heat sink. Do not be tempted to clamp it at one end only if you are using a saw. It is less critical if you have access to a laser cutter. To clamp it make a thinner bar with the same curvature as the upper surface of the nib and place it over the top and clamp that to the heat sink bar. Avoid crushing the tipping material by having it extend over the end of the BMS bar. Do not rush any cuts.

Sammyo
June 22nd, 2015, 10:42 AM
I strongly agree with both Scrawler and 00Photo, start with something relatively flexible and make sure to heat sink the nib before you do anything.

There no no "standard" ways to modify a nib to improve it's flexibility, but there are tried and tested methods. Jon is right, you will never achieve a vintage level of flex, but you can definitely make something better than off the shelf modern nib options.

If you have a search, you will find many examples of both Noodler’s and TWSBI nibs that have been modified, with advice and comments by the people that have done it before… which I am guessing is what you were asking for here. Have a look at what has already been done, see what you like or dislike and try taking a little of A and a little of B. Maybe you will come up with a new idea that could change things all together. Try flexing a nib gently before you start and seeing where the nib shape either restricts it's flex or creates a high stress area that would result in plastic deformation or fracture, work around these areas and see what can be improved after all no two nibs, even from the same company, are the same! Also consider how many nibs you think you might need to buy to perfect what you are after, multiply that by the cost of the nib and think what flexible nibbed pen you could buy with that money ;)

I have added a few images below from my Google search to give you some ideas of what others have already done, but there are many more out there. Some are wilder and wackier than others, some I would never suggest, but experience can only be gained through trying.

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/uploads/post-99778-0-83345400-1410235929.jpg
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/34/92jg.jpg
http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/uploads/post-109303-0-96573800-1394320544.jpg

Jon Szanto
June 22nd, 2015, 02:18 PM
I'll be back home in about 48 hours and more able to involve myself with forum threads than enjoying nature. Until then, please engage Panty Un-Twisting Procedures, and try to relax. We're all in this together.

Scrawler
June 22nd, 2015, 02:28 PM
That TWSBI is much more radical than I would have tried, but then I don't own one, so I don't know how thick and hard it is. Instead of the two cuts on the shoulder my first attempt would have been two V grooves at the position of the first cut on the shoulder and down towards the breather hole, about as deep as the second cut on the shoulder. Whoever did that is probably quite experienced at it. When I have finished renovating my house and my workshop is back, I think I will try that, just for fun.

Marsilius
June 22nd, 2015, 05:04 PM
Until then, please engage Panty Un-Twisting Procedures, and try to relax. We're all in this together.
First sentence spoken like a true percussionist. :)
Second one like a mensch.
And NEVER tell me to relax! It makes me nervous. :)

Sammyo
June 22nd, 2015, 06:10 PM
...Whoever did that is probably quite experienced at it...

I believe that is a true statement, there are also some examples of Pendleton modified TWSBI nibs that are just beautiful.