First flex nib pen?

[Laurie]

I have reached a stage where I would like to experience a flex nib. I love the broad nibs and love the italic cursive nibs. I love the variation. Did a bit of research and think I would like a full flex nib. Not sure of where to go now. Read some posts in relation to staying with a Noodlers Ahab and others saying the Wahl Eversharp Skyline. Then there was the options of the vintage or the new Wahl.

My readings indicate that the vintage Wahl flex nibs give much better flex. So I would appreciate some advice of the best way to go and some suggestions on price and what to look for if the Wahl is the preferred way to go

[fountainpenkid]

Scrap the idea of an Ahab... from what I have heard and seen they are unreliable, poorly made and definitely not full flex!

From personal experience, I can recommend fully the Swan Leverless pens--very affordable, well made, easy to repair, and yes, the nibs are amazing and often at least semi-flex.
The Skyline is another excellent option.

[ac12]

My recommendation is to first use a flex dip pen, to see what that is all about.
A flexible dip pen nib will cost you only $2 (+ shipping) and a holder ($3 for a straight holder, $13 for an oblique holder). vs. $100+ for a flex fountain pen.
As for a nib a Nikko G or Zebra G for a starter nib, a Leonardt-Hiro 41 when you feel brave and ready for more flex.

The reason I suggest a dip pen are:
#1 price. See above for the cost of a dip pen ($15 with an oblique holder), then compare to the cost of a flex FP ($100+)
#2 replacement. If you spring a flex FP nib, it will cost you $100+ to replace the damaged nib. And that is IF a replacement nib can be found for your pen. Remember flex FP nibs have not been made for a LONG time.
#3 different nibs. If you want to try a different nib, with a dip pen, it is just buying another $2 nib. With a FP you will have to buy another FP at $100+.

[Waski_the_Squirrel]

A Noodler's pen is a great way to try out flex. It may not be the vintage experience, but I really love my Noodler's Konrads. You may actually discover that you don't like flex quite apart from the writing experience.

The dip pens are another way to experience flex, though I'll admit that I didn't like that writing experience.

The Pelikan m200 has flex, at least in my experience, but the price is significantly higher than the first two options I mentioned. Similarly, the new Wahl-Eversharp pens are yet another jump in price.

So, really, if you're used to fountain pens and how they work, I think the Noodler's pens are a great way to try out flex.

[fountainpenkid]

Scrap the idea of an Ahab... from what I have heard and seen they are unreliable, poorly made and definitely not full flex!

From personal experience, I can recommend fully the Swan Leverless pens--very affordable, well made, easy to repair, and yes, the nibs are amazing and often at least semi-flex.
The Skyline is another excellent option.

I should clarify my post, which saw the Ahab in a definitively negative light, which was intended only in the heat of the moment. I agree with Waski in that tinkering with pens is a fun and fruitful experience (one I myself much enjoy), and certainly one that Noodler's pens can provide, but as a practical, no hassle tool, they are not the best choice.

[Laurie]

My recommendation is to first use a flex dip pen, to see what that is all about.
A flexible dip pen nib will cost you only $2 (+ shipping) and a holder ($3 for a straight holder, $13 for an oblique holder). vs. $100+ for a flex fountain pen.
As for a nib a Nikko G or Zebra G for a starter nib, a Leonardt-Hiro 41 when you feel brave and ready for more flex.

The reason I suggest a dip pen are:
#1 price. See above for the cost of a dip pen ($15 with an oblique holder), then compare to the cost of a flex FP ($100+)


#2 replacement. If you spring a flex FP nib, it will cost you $100+ to replace the damaged nib. And that is IF a replacement nib can be found for your pen. Remember flex FP nibs have not been made for a LONG time.
#3 different nibs. If you want to try a different nib, with a dip pen, it is just buying another $2 nib. With a FP you will have to buy another FP at $100+.

Thanks for that info. I just found a local ebay store that has a very wide variety. Here is the link:

http://stores.ebay.com.au/little-pen-pleasures

There are a lot of nibs there Could you suggest which ones I should go for. Very cheap so I could get quiet a few.

One thing I am not real sure of. I like broad to medium in ordinary nibs and at the moment enjoyed a 1.5 italic. I see most of these nibs are EF. Can you get M nibs in these flex dip pen nibs? Would the flex just make these medium flex nibs just too wide on the down stroke?

[Lady Onogaro]

Laurie,

I like the Brause Iserlohn 361. It's a fun nib and I had a lot of success with it.

These are fun, too: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Zebra-G-pen-nib-with-Ink-Cage-ink-reservoir-Must-try-/291423878891?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43da377eeb

I could not answer your question about width--since these are flex nibs, the width will depend on the amount of pressure you expend on the nib.

Here's a link on flex nibs that might be helpful to you: http://www.vintagepen.net/how-to-use-flex-nibs.html

and on the same page: http://www.vintagepen.net/flex--fast-writing.html (lots of links on the author's page).

JetPens has a guide to nibs and nib holders here: http://www.jetpens.com/blog/guide-to-nibs-and-nib-holders/pt/763

[KBeezie]

A Noodler's pen is a great way to try out flex..

Not sure that's really accurate, to me it's a great way to try out line variation specific to that model of pen, because it's not a good representative of what flex/semi-flex is due to the extreme amount of pressure required to use it. It will not train you to have a light controlled hand that's required for actual springy/semi-flex/flex pens. The Noodler's "flex" nibs are at best springy in my opinion.

Using little to no pressure : Springy x2 , Semi-Flex 3-4x, Flex 5-7x the starting width.

The problem is defining what people consider "little to no" pressure.

While the Zebra-G dip nib is still considered firm by most people, I feel it's a better teacher of flex for cheap than something like an Ahab or Creeper while also being inexpensive. There are others to be sure, but that one seems to be the most commonly thrown around example of a 'high performance' flex nib for cheap. (and technically could fit an Ahab if you do some feed modification, but will need to replace the nib every few months).

Other than my gripe of seeing a Noodler's pen as a 'flex pen', is the general tinkering nature of their pens, little more work than I'd really want to fuss with. (And I mess with most of my pens, but usually once that's done, it's set and good for, even if I were to pull the nib/feed and pop it back in).

Personally I like springy-to-semi-flex, I'm not to the point that I can handle what I call full flex consistently enough, and the springy nibs feels the best for me while still allowing for consistent everyday usage on most paper. I write with a light hand, but not yet with fine dexterity that a calligrapher has.

[Laurie]

Laurie,

I like the Brause Iserlohn 361. It's a fun nib and I had a lot of success with it.

These are fun, too: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Zebra-G-pen-nib-with-Ink-Cage-ink-reservoir-Must-try-/291423878891?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43da377eeb

I could not answer your question about width--since these are flex nibs, the width will depend on the amount of pressure you expend on the nib.

Here's a link on flex nibs that might be helpful to you: http://www.vintagepen.net/how-to-use-flex-nibs.html

and on the same page: http://www.vintagepen.net/flex--fast-writing.html (lots of links on the author's page).

JetPens has a guide to nibs and nib holders here: http://www.jetpens.com/blog/guide-to-nibs-and-nib-holders/pt/763

Yes I just had a quick look through those articles and I will study them closely later. I am still not 100% sure on one thing. I probably am not expressing it well. Firstly in a vintage fountain pen with a natural flex nib it will come in various widths EF, F, M or B. and because it is flexy it will create a broader stroke under pressure. Logically the pressured line on a M size nib will be wider than the pressured line on a EF nib.?
All of the nibs on the pen pleasure website (for flex tip pen nibs) seem to be EF grade and some dont seem to have a grade but a number. Will some be a F nib, or a M nib or a B nib. I thought that if I am correct I could get one of each to see which I like and that way can decide on a semi flex, full flex, or wet noodle nib in a fountain pen when I decide if I want one.
Hope that makes sense?

[Lady Onogaro]

I understand your question, Laurie, though I do not know the answer as to whether any of them would be larger sizes; from what I have read on the Jetpens resource I linked to, these are more appropriate to fountain pens than calligraphy nibs.

When I have played with dip pen nibs, I considered myself a beginner and so bought what was recommended for beginners. I read a few blogs about calligraphy pens before I tried them. This is one place I visited because it provided some introductory information (you will notice that the author also recommends the Brause "Blue Pumpkin" nib and the Nikko G nib:

https://thepostmansknock.com/lowdown-on-calligraphy-nibs/

Of course, there are other sites that may have the information you want.

The size of the nib, by the way, as far as I understand, don't really have anything to do with the degree of flex.

I have a little Noodler's Nib Creaper that I have fooled around with from time to time. I bought it before I knew anything much about fountain pens and found it pretty frustrating, but the other week I picked it up and had some fun with it. On the other hand, I bought an acrylic Noodler's pen, and I gave up and put a Goulet nib in it. But here's some information on the Noodler's Ahab (which you will note provides no nib size as you are accustomed to because the width of the line depends upon the pressure you put on the nib): http://blog.gouletpens.com/2011/11/noodlers-ahab-writing-test.html

But I agree with Karl about the Noodler's pens. The only other "flex" pens I have experience with is an Esterbrook with a semiflex nib (not that flexy) and an Eversharp Symphony with a semi-flex nib (again, not that flexy). That's why I recommend the Brause nib pen because you do get a lot of flex.

I am sure others will weigh in on this who know their calligraphy nibs better than I do.

[Laurie]

I understand your question, Laurie, though I do not know the answer as to whether any of them would be larger sizes; from what I have read on the Jetpens resource I linked to, these are more appropriate to fountain pens than calligraphy nibs.

When I have played with dip pen nibs, I considered myself a beginner and so bought what was recommended for beginners. I read a few blogs about calligraphy pens before I tried them. This is one place I visited because it provided some introductory information (you will notice that the author also recommends the Brause "Blue Pumpkin" nib and the Nikko G nib:

https://thepostmansknock.com/lowdown-on-calligraphy-nibs/

Of course, there are other sites that may have the information you want.

The size of the nib, by the way, as far as I understand, don't really have anything to do with the degree of flex.

I have a little Noodler's Nib Creaper that I have fooled around with from time to time. I bought it before I knew anything much about fountain pens and found it pretty frustrating, but the other week I picked it up and had some fun with it. On the other hand, I bought an acrylic Noodler's pen, and I gave up and put a Goulet nib in it. But here's some information on the Noodler's Ahab (which you will note provides no nib size as you are accustomed to because the width of the line depends upon the pressure you put on the nib): http://blog.gouletpens.com/2011/11/noodlers-ahab-writing-test.html

But I agree with Karl about the Noodler's pens. The only other "flex" pens I have experience with is an Esterbrook with a semiflex nib (not that flexy) and an Eversharp Symphony with a semi-flex nib (again, not that flexy). That's why I recommend the Brause nib pen because you do get a lot of flex.

I am sure others will weigh in on this who know their calligraphy nibs better than I do.

Thanks a lot for all that great info. I actually sent a message to the Ebay store and this guy was very helpful and has suggested 5 nibs to begin with. Apparently there are some very fine nibs and some that a more medium. So has suggested a mixture including an oblique which is the funniest nib I have ever seen. Looks like a "Z" BTW one of the nibs he suggested as the Brause 361. and I will buy one. BTW he also said that you can buy italics and and other broad nibs in these dip nibs which are very flexy so I think that answers my question. I suppose it is a matter of finding a nib that when flexed gives you the desired width.

I just hope I can take to the skill of writing with these flexy nibs because I just love the writing effect they produce. Learning to use them might take my mind of purchasing (much better on the bank balance)

[Laurie]

I will order some of the dipping pen nibs over the weekend. In the meantime I am reading all of the articles referred to above. I have a M 200 Pelikan and recall somewhere reading that it was quite a flexible nib. My M200 is uninked at the moment but apoplying medium pressure to the dry nib I notice the tines opening and the pen is very flexy. Would this pen give me a flex nib experience. I dont want to push too hard and spring the nib.

[KBeezie]

I will order some of the dipping pen nibs over the weekend. In the meantime I am reading all of the articles referred to above. I have a M 200 Pelikan and recall somewhere reading that it was quite a flexible nib. My M200 is uninked at the moment but apoplying medium pressure to the dry nib I notice the tines opening and the pen is very flexy. Would this pen give me a flex nib experience. I dont want to push too hard and spring the nib.

No, the modern M200 (or most Modern Pelikan) nibs are firm/nails. The Steel ones may be a little springy but they are by no means "quite flexible", and should not be pressed. Springy only means they have a little bit of a bounce feel to them with writing with them rather than having a firm unmovable nail feel.

If you're getting a 'very flexy' experience from medium pressure, then your idea of medium is my idea of extreme.

[Sailor Kenshin]

The idea of trying dip nibs is great. Also, look up 'wet noodle' pen videos on youtube. This will give you an idea of what real flex means....and if you want it.

Personally, I have an Ahab and an original Noodler's pen...both work just fine as pens, without tinkering. But the amount of pressure I need to get them to show line variation is too great for my poor weak little hands.


But wait!

Lookee what I found... (http://www.vintagepen.net/performance-flex.html)

Has someone posted this before?

[sgtstretch]

Laurie, I just got my first flex "pen." I picked up a nib holder and Zebra G and Brause "Blue Pumpkin" dip nibs. Having a lot of fun with it so far.

[Laura N]

I will order some of the dipping pen nibs over the weekend. In the meantime I am reading all of the articles referred to above. I have a M 200 Pelikan and recall somewhere reading that it was quite a flexible nib. My M200 is uninked at the moment but apoplying medium pressure to the dry nib I notice the tines opening and the pen is very flexy. Would this pen give me a flex nib experience. I dont want to push too hard and spring the nib.

No. That is not a flex nib. Whoever said it was "quite a flexible nib" doesn't know anything about flexible nibs.

[Jon Szanto]

But wait!

Lookee what I found... (http://www.vintagepen.net/performance-flex.html)

Has someone posted this before?

Earlier, Lady O had linked to at least one page on Mauricio's site. Laurie should DEFINITELY go over those pages in detail to get an idea of what flex really is. It is not a soft nib, or tines that spread a bit, etc. Flex is entirely different. As people have mentioned, a good dip nib is an appropriate way to start with actual flex, and then move from there. One of THE hardest things to talk about or get ideas across - flex nibs literally BEG for actual use to experience what is happening. Not an easy thing to communicate.

Also of note: what, precisely, does a person DO when they have something with flex? I found that out myself: I ended up with a number of lovely pens/nibs, only to realize how abundantly difficult it is to do them justice with my neanderthalic hand. A flex nib is a tool for an artist, and an artist will bring out it's maximum talents, but for anyone who will use one, it will take *practice*.

[Sailor Kenshin]

As I've discovered when I took out my dip pens....it's been a long time.

[ac12]

The idea with dip pens is to have the wide line variation from hair thin on the side and up strokes to wide on the down stroke. To do that the nibs are pointed, some are VERY VERY pointed. The Nikko and Zebra G nibs are what I would call a beginners flex nib. They are much easier to use than a POINTED nib, in that they don't snag and scratch as much, because they are not as pointed/sharp, but also their hairlines will be thicker.

Are there wider dip pen nibs that will flex? Yes, flex to some degree. I used bowl shaped nibs, when I first started with dip pen, and they have enough flex to give you line variation and the tip if like a M nib fountain pen.

The Z shaped nib is an attempt to give you an oblique offset of the nib angle with a straight holder. I simply use an oblique holder, that way all of my nibs are offset at an oblique angle.

My nib suggestions are:
- Nikko or Zebra G (beginners pointed nib)
- Leonardt Hiro 41 (this is a flexy nib)
- Eagle 830, Esterbrook 788, Penesco 501 (these are the bowl nibs)
- Estrbrook 442 Jackson stub, Esterbrook 312 or 312 (stubs)

Of these 4, only the Nikko/Zebra G and the Leonardt Hiro 41 are in production. All the other nibs are vintage, and subject to availability of a declining number of nibs.

BTW, do learn how to properly prepare the nibs, or they won't write well. This is to remove manufacturing/shipping oils and gunk from the nib, which will prevent the ink from sticking to the nib.
- Take a toothbrush and toothpaste and brush the nib, like you would your teeth.
- Then give it a wipe with rubbing alcohol. But make sure that the inert ingredient is water, you don't want to put junk back onto your clean nib.
After I clean the ink off my nib, I always finish with a wipe with alcohol.

[elaineb]

I also really like the Hunt 101, the Hunt 56 "school" nib, and the Brause 66EF. All three of these are in current production, and are easy to find here in the U.S. (Sorry, I have no idea about Australia, Laurie.) To me, the Hunt 101 comes closest to the feel of a nice vintage gold full-flex nib. Not completely, because it has no tipping and is therefore scratchier than a gold nib. But the way the tines open and close with hand pressure really mimics some of my Waterman wet noodles.

I don't think it's necessary to go with an oblique pen holder if you're just messing around with flex to see if you like it. If you're doing full-out formal calligraphy and/or production work like wedding invitations, it can make the ergonomics easier. But I've also been using non-oblique holders for decades, and certainly don't have oblique holders for my vintage flex fountain pens. Just depends on your setup for writing, I think.

As far as preparing nibs go, definitely douse them in rubbing alcohol, making sure you get some in between the tines to clean out any coatings there. Putting a coat of saliva onto the nib enhances ink flow. I kid you not, there's a protein of some sort in our saliva that works some magic. Me, I'm old-school and just pop the nib into my mouth for a few seconds while I'm getting the paper ready and opening ink bottles. (I mean, it's just been cleaned with rubbing alcohol. Could there be any germs left?) More judicious people would probably prefer to suck on a q-tip for a sec to gather some saliva, and then wipe the nib down with that, including between the tines.

Finally, if you get a really scratchy dip nib, you can smooth it down with micromesh as you would a fountain pen nib. You don't have to be particularly meticulous because, again, there is no tipping so you're mostly just smoothing off burrs from the edges where the metal was cut during manufacturing. You can check that the tines are aligned, too. I've had a few that were a bit wonky. And if the hairlines aren't as fine as you like, you can do a bit of shaping on the outside edges of the tip, making it a bit narrower. I mostly work with 6000 mesh to do these jobs, and finish with quick rubs of 8K and then 12K for a final smoothing.

[KBeezie]

Finally, if you get a really scratchy dip nib, you can smooth it down with micromesh as you would a fountain pen nib. You don't have to be particularly meticulous because, again, there is no tipping so you're mostly just smoothing off burrs from the edges where the metal was cut during manufacturing. You can check that the tines are aligned, too. I've had a few that were a bit wonky. And if the hairlines aren't as fine as you like, you can do a bit of shaping on the outside edges of the tip, making it a bit narrower. I mostly work with 6000 mesh to do these jobs, and finish with quick rubs of 8K and then 12K for a final smoothing.


For whatever reason this won't work with nibs like Zebra-G dip nibs, attempting anything like micro-mesh just makes them worse. Also they gradually get scratchier as they get worn down.

And for new people getting into them, I predict they will all feel 'scratchy', primarily due to the manner in which they use them, incorrectly flexing or exerting pressure at an angle you shouldn't and dragging is going to feel very scratchy. When used correctly the sense of 'scratch' is removed. So unlike typical firmer round nibs I wouldn't attempt to smooth them.

[elaineb]

Huh. Good to know about the G nibs, Karl. It works fine on the Hunt nibs I use and I do it regularly. The upstrokes of untipped steel nibs will always be scratchy by fountain pen standards. But if the downstrokes are really scratchy was well, then I suspect there's some roughness leftover from when the slit was cut. If I run my finger over some writing (after the ink has dried) and I feel big ridges where the pen tines dug into the paper fibers, then I pull out the micromesh. The tines should not be damaging the paper surface like that.

[Laurie]

I have followed everyone's good advice and have bid on a few of the nibs recommended in previous posts. I will then do a bit of experimenting with these nibs and see if I can handle the technique necessary for use of a flexy nib It seems to be that the advantage of having a flexy nib in a fountain pen is the steady supply of ink and the fact that you dont have to go to the trouble of continually re dipping the nib. If you are splitting the tines and doing very thick down strokes I expect these dipping nibs would run out of ink in a line or less. I watched a Youtube video by Stephen Brown and when he was flexing and drawing thick down strokes he was only getting a few letters before the nib went dry. Also I expect a good fountain pen with a flexy nib would give a better normal writing experience than one of these dip nibs as they dip nibs do not have any tipping material attached and I imagine they would be quite scratchy.

However I cant imagine you really using the heavy lines produced by flexing on every piece of writing you do. Maybe signatures, xmas cards etc would be suitable to do a nice cursive italic writing using the dip nibs. Maybe after trying them I wouldnt need to look for a fountain pen with a flexy nib (and I rather like the effect given by an Italic nib which gives a good line variation without any effort to apply extra pressure on the down stroke.

As far as the problem with dip nibs running dry I have bid for an Ackerman pump pen holder which appears to assist in this area. I recall reading somewhere that some of these dip nibs have some sort of reservoirs which catch a bit more ink. I did see a strange one with a bit of spring wire underneath which trapped more ink.

All very interesting. I think I will enjoy the experience with these dip pens and as pointed out above it is not an expensive exercise. The one thing I had a little problem with in placing my bids on ebay is what is a reasonable price for a dip nib. I see some for sale for about $3 each but I am thinking I might have to pay more like $5 per nib to win the bid. That is AUD which I imagine would be about $3USD

[tnordl]

Hi,

In this thread yesterday and I think Noodlers Ahab got some undeserved comments. I am not saying its a great flex (I have some vintage one that is way better and can flex good with just a tab bit of pressure). Still for that price you do get a chance to try a flex pen to see if you like how the writing turns out. I like to show that with some tinkering can get some nice line variation. I image is from 5 min ago.

19567

What I did with it:
1 I grinded the nib to fine with micro-pads
2 Used the end of a paper clip and scraped out the channel in the feed.
3 To make it flex under little pressure I used a dremmel to reduce the caps on the nib.

1 and 2 give you better line variation while the 3 only needed to reduce the pressure needed.

paper from the company printer and the ink was Majestic Blue from the "The Writing Desk"--I sometime dilute it with some distilled water to get a lighter blue shade.

[Laurie]

Well I successfully bid for a number of nibs and pen holders. I purchased a Zebra G nib, Brause 66 EF, Hunt 101, Brause Rose 76, Henry Superjeune, Cobaltea 80, Principal;, Gillott 170 dip nibs. Also got some italic dip nibs ( Blanzey Pour & Ce No. 3, John Mitchell 133 and Fargon No.4, and a Baigfol & Fargon Depose No. 4). I also was successful in purchasing an Ackerman Pump Pen holder with a few odds and ends. Total cost was about $60 including postage. The Ebay Seller was just so helpful. He is an Aussie and obviously is into using dip pens. He is going to send me a few extras with my purchases. Not sure what but he also is going to be selling a bit of appropriate ink shortly. I just cant wait to get into using these flex dip nibs and experiencing what they produce. I think it will just be something that takes me back to my school days with the dip nib and holder and the pot of ink in the right corner of the desk (around the late 1950's) Cant wait to write a few signatures and xmas cards with the dip nibs and just seeing the different variations they produce. I will try and post a few samples once I get the hang of it. Thanks everyone for the sound advice on this thread. I am just thrilled and cant wait for the the postman to knock. (good name for a movie)

[ac12]

I understand that the Ackerman pens don't always work as they should.
But since you have it, might as well give it a go.

I recommend that you go online and look for writing instructions for Spencerian.
Specifically what you are looking for is how they hold the pen.

The grip in the old instructions is VERY different than todays, tripod grip. The idea is to hold the pen so that the downstroke of the pen is in the same axis as that of the nib. When using a regular FP, my downstroke is really a diagonal stroke of the pen. The flex nib will work better when it is in line with the downstroke, and not doing a diagonal stroke. The diagonal stroke with a dip pen will sometimes catch the trailing tine and spit ink. For me, this grip has been quite difficult to do consistently, to such a degree that I now use an oblique dip pen holder instead. The oblique dip pen holder, allows me to use my normal grip and the holder will offset the nib at the proper angle, so that the nib is in line with the downstroke.

Remember, only use pressure on the down stoke.
The side and up strokes are as light as possible, so that the nib does not scratch/snag the paper.

gud luk