Dip Pen Woes I used to have

[Cob]

I have from time to time whinged about the fact that I simply cannot write with a dip pen: I have tried with various inks and numerous nibs. I have washed the nibs with meths and acetone, warmed them up, spat on them etc., etc. all to no avail.

All this changed today: inspired by a video showing unbelievable calligraphic skill in the piece about Brause Rose nibs, I dug out a pen holder and a brand new nib from a batch I bought last year. I have an old bottle of Osmiroid Calligraphic ink and thought "I'll do it this time!"

Well that was a total failure. Just as usual: a blot followed by about half a word and then fade-out.

It so happened that on the table was my bottle of the Russian Raduga violet ink. I gave it a go - perfect!! It works beautifully, so I tried the blue with the same excellent outcome. The nib, brand new had no preparation whatsoever.

I shall order two more bottles right away. Note that this was te ink specified for fountain pens not the dip version also offered. I should also add that I have used this ink in fountain pens with no problems at all.

Magic stuff!

Cob

[naimitsu]

Thanks for the share! I'm going to go see if I can get that here in the US.

Also, have you tried Zillers? It's the first actual dip ink I've used and it's a night and day difference for me.
For me, it feels like it also helps lubricate the tip, so there's less skipping. It also clings a lot harder onto the nib, so I have not experienced any unwanted splotching. The thing about the ink that confused me was that it did not look or seem any thicker than the FP inks I've tried before.

The only downside of Zillers is that since it is very clingy, it isn't as easy to clean off the nib as FP ink.

[Cob]

You can order the Raduga ink (there is Blue - quite a dark blue, Violet and Black) from Julia161 on this forum. SHe offers a type for fountain pens and for dip pens - I was using the fountain pen one!

I have had no trouble of any kind with these inks.

I haven't heard of Zillers, but then I have done virtually no dipping! I might try to find time to do some now I have an ink that works!

Cob

[Sammyo]

Thanks Cob, I appreciate the info, especially the sourcing ;)

Just for your info, my dad writes a lot of letters and post cards to me using dip pens and he uses Winsor & Newton inks. If you go to the "General inky goodness" forum there's a thread "The inks of... My dad's postcards.... (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/11581-The-inks-of-My-dad-s-postcards)", in there are some written examples of some of their inks :)

In fact I have three more example to put up there... Time is against me! ;)

[Laurie]

Thanks for the share! I'm going to go see if I can get that here in the US.

Also, have you tried Zillers? It's the first actual dip ink I've used and it's a night and day difference for me.
For me, it feels like it also helps lubricate the tip, so there's less skipping. It also clings a lot harder onto the nib, so I have not experienced any unwanted splotching. The thing about the ink that confused me was that it did not look or seem any thicker than the FP inks I've tried before.

The only downside of Zillers is that since it is very clingy, it isn't as easy to clean off the nib as FP ink.

Yesterday I made a post about the same problem on the Help forum. Is this the video you refer to:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rVo3jTBfhk

If not then you will also find some very helpful advice about getting some of these difficult dip nibs started. When you see her dip the nib and then a close up of her putting pressure on the tines you see the ink retreat to the back of the nib away from the tip. Obviously some scientific reason for this ( I am not expert on capillary reaction). Amazingly once the tip of the nib touches a dot of ink it starts to flow. She also mentions that thicker inks work better and you can see her writing with a white ink. So there appears to be a lot in the type of ink you use.

I am only just starting with dip pens (part from my school days where that and HB pencils is all we had) and I only have one caligraphy ink (It is called M Caligraphy Ink and it comes from the UK) Seems to work OK. I also read where the Parker black Quink fountain pen ink works okay. I had some of that and tried it and it also works okay. I am also a member of the Flourish forum (which is purely caligraphy) and they mention quite a few good inks including Walnut and also read about adding a few drops of Arabic gum to the Eternal Ink. Also Sumi gets some good mentions. Now I have a couple of others to try and source and try. I am a bit interested in the ink crystals that you mix yourself as it seems to could vary the viscosity quiet easily

The world of dip pens is fascinating and I am glad Jon Szanto recommended it to me. I can also recommend it for any members just starting to collect a few fountain pens because not only does it help your choice of nib types but helps you get more expertise in applying pressure and obtain line variations to your writing. However there is just one big drawback for me with the dip pen experience. That is the fact that these very flexi nib just run dry after just a few strokes. I am about to look into a few of those with a reservoir. I also purchased an Ackerman pump pen for use with the dip nibs. The one I got has two ends which is great. I havent tried it yet but will give my opinion later. I do note that there are a few negative posts about this instrument but there is quiet a few positives as well.

[Kaputnik]

I've had problems with individual dip pen inks as well; one ink that I bought at a local art supply store wouldn't work with anything, and I ended up throwing it out. Presumably, though, if the company stays in business, it must work with something.

Anyway, through trial and error I got most of my dip nibs working, and most of the dip pen inks. So far, a J. Herbin Blue has been the one that works with everything. With more practice, I'd no doubt get better, but the thing is that I'm not really into calligraphy. It just suits my fancy sometimes to write a couple of journal pages or a letter with a dip pen.

[Cob]

Thanks for the share! I'm going to go see if I can get that here in the US.

Also, have you tried Zillers? It's the first actual dip ink I've used and it's a night and day difference for me.
For me, it feels like it also helps lubricate the tip, so there's less skipping. It also clings a lot harder onto the nib, so I have not experienced any unwanted splotching. The thing about the ink that confused me was that it did not look or seem any thicker than the FP inks I've tried before.

The only downside of Zillers is that since it is very clingy, it isn't as easy to clean off the nib as FP ink.

Yesterday I made a post about the same problem on the Help forum. Is this the video you refer to:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rVo3jTBfhk

If not then you will also find some very helpful advice about getting some of these difficult dip nibs started. When you see her dip the nib and then a close up of her putting pressure on the tines you see the ink retreat to the back of the nib away from the tip. Obviously some scientific reason for this ( I am not expert on capillary reaction). Amazingly once the tip of the nib touches a dot of ink it starts to flow. She also mentions that thicker inks work better and you can see her writing with a white ink. So there appears to be a lot in the type of ink you use.

I am only just starting with dip pens (part from my school days where that and HB pencils is all we had) and I only have one caligraphy ink (It is called M Caligraphy Ink and it comes from the UK) Seems to work OK. I also read where the Parker black Quink fountain pen ink works okay. I had some of that and tried it and it also works okay. I am also a member of the Flourish forum (which is purely caligraphy) and they mention quite a few good inks including Walnut and also read about adding a few drops of Arabic gum to the Eternal Ink. Also Sumi gets some good mentions. Now I have a couple of others to try and source and try. I am a bit interested in the ink crystals that you mix yourself as it seems to could vary the viscosity quiet easily

The world of dip pens is fascinating and I am glad Jon Szanto recommended it to me. I can also recommend it for any members just starting to collect a few fountain pens because not only does it help your choice of nib types but helps you get more expertise in applying pressure and obtain line variations to your writing. However there is just one big drawback for me with the dip pen experience. That is the fact that these very flexi nib just run dry after just a few strokes. I am about to look into a few of those with a reservoir. I also purchased an Ackerman pump pen for use with the dip nibs. The one I got has two ends which is great. I havent tried it yet but will give my opinion later. I do note that there are a few negative posts about this instrument but there is quiet a few positives as well.

Yes it was watching that video that inspired me to write with a dip pen. But my problem was never starting off: it was the fact that all I got was a big blob of ink followed by a few letters; just not a practical means of writing at all.

In all honesty I should add that I doubt I'll persist with it - I tried yesterday a nice Swan Sf2 I have and the results were nicer than those with the dip nib really!

Cob

[john]

You soak the nib in the alcohol for awhile, ripe it with the tissue. The nib will hold the ink well, don't pressure too hard on the first stroke after dipping the ink. You can add a little gum arabic into the fountain pen ink which can prevent you get the big blob. I can write very well with dip pen after I get use to it.

[Laurie]

You soak the nib in the alcohol for awhile, ripe it with the tissue. The nib will hold the ink well, don't pressure too hard on the first stroke after dipping the ink. You can add a little gum arabic into the fountain pen ink which can prevent you get the big blob. I can write very well with dip pen after I get use to it.

Yes I agree with John. In my limited experience and reading it does seem to be a nib cleaning issue. I had the same problem until I wiped the nib with alcohol. Try rubbing it with a little just before dipping or maybe with some saliva which worked also for me.
I have just given my Ackerman pump pen a go and it works beautifully. Writes about two lines and then give it a very light pump on the side with your thumb and you are off again for a few more lines.

BTW John you forgot to add that you drink the alcohol after finishing the soaking.

[Cob]

Well as I wrote in my first post I tried all that: acetone, meths, soap and water, and I spat on them too. All useless.

It has only been possible to write with a dip nib with the Russian ink. However in all honesty I don't enjoy the experience very much. For the flexible experience I'd rather write with the Swan SF2 or a couple of the Onotos I have. First the fountain pens do not scratch like the dip nibs and second, I do not have to put up with the inevitable irritating fading as the ink runs out!

Cob

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Baffling really. I took the simplest route. I put the nib in my mouth like a lollipop. All done. Works perfectly. Of course, the environments of individual mouths will vary, but I would be surprised if there is was that much difference overall.

[Laurie]

Yes I found the nib in the mouth to work perfectly. My saliva would be 99% Shiraz red wine so maybe that is the answer. I can see Cob how you are turned off and I thought the same when I started but from my research you should persevere and accept that these nibs are going to be scratchy and not as easy to use as you fountain pen nibs. But they have character and for me it is the line variation that is satisfying and a great experience. I really think it is a matter of finding the nib and ink that agrees and the experience will be better.

[Laurie]

1978119781

The Ackerman pen comes with a Nikko Japanese nib installed in one end of the pump pen. It is a very flexy nib and here is a quick sample of what it can produce. This is my first use of the Ackerman. I filled it with Parker Quink Black ink for testing and I wrote with it for quite a while without it running out. When it got a bit dry a very light press of the pressure sack on the side of the pen with my thumb made the nib flow very freely again. It was quite easy and surprising. With time I think I will be able to fill a page with no problems. The Nikko nib has very good flex as you can see and has none of the characteristics of flow problems with the Brause 76 Rose.

[Cob]

Yes I found the nib in the mouth to work perfectly. My saliva would be 99% Shiraz red wine so maybe that is the answer. I can see Cob how you are turned off and I thought the same when I started but from my research you should persevere and accept that these nibs are going to be scratchy and not as easy to use as you fountain pen nibs. But they have character and for me it is the line variation that is satisfying and a great experience. I really think it is a matter of finding the nib and ink that agrees and the experience will be better.

Thanks Laurie for those encouraging words. Nevertheless, the Onoto illustrated below has all the line variation my poor hand can use. I should add that I find the idea of using a dip pen æsthetically satisfying, but very disappointing in practice.

Cob

19782

[migo984]

Thanks Laurie for those encouraging words. Nevertheless, the Onoto illustrated below has all the line variation my poor hand can use. I should add that I find the idea of using a dip pen æsthetically satisfying, but very disappointing in practice.

Cob

http://fpgeeks.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=19782&stc=1

I love that Onoto, Cob. What a fabulous nib! I'd love to have a write with it........

[Cob]

Thanks Laurie for those encouraging words. Nevertheless, the Onoto illustrated below has all the line variation my poor hand can use. I should add that I find the idea of using a dip pen æsthetically satisfying, but very disappointing in practice.

Cob

http://fpgeeks.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=19782&stc=1

I love that Onoto, Cob. What a fabulous nib! I'd love to have a write with it........

And if I still have it at our next meeting, so you shall!

Rgds

Cob

[FredRydr]

My recent dip pen exercise was dropping a hint for Mystery Ink No. Nine (MI9) in the General Inky Goodness forum:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-gTc6301bUjQ/VYGUP8ZrX-I/AAAAAAAAIIs/FprBP8uITVs/s640/2015_06_17_11_37_30.jpg

Fred

[RuiFromUK]

I have from time to time whinged about the fact that I simply cannot write with a dip pen: I have tried with various inks and numerous nibs. I have washed the nibs with meths and acetone, warmed them up, spat on them etc., etc. all to no avail.

All this changed today: inspired by a video showing unbelievable calligraphic skill in the piece about Brause Rose nibs, I dug out a pen holder and a brand new nib from a batch I bought last year. I have an old bottle of Osmiroid Calligraphic ink and thought "I'll do it this time!"

Well that was a total failure. Just as usual: a blot followed by about half a word and then fade-out.

It so happened that on the table was my bottle of the Russian Raduga violet ink. I gave it a go - perfect!! It works beautifully, so I tried the blue with the same excellent outcome. The nib, brand new had no preparation whatsoever.

I shall order two more bottles right away. Note that this was te ink specified for fountain pens not the dip version also offered. I should also add that I have used this ink in fountain pens with no problems at all.

Magic stuff!

Cob

You should have asked me when we meet on the monthly Saturdays.

So far I have never had a problem with any ink I have used with dip pens. Not only I have used inks (both fountain pen and calligraphy inks) but also gouache.

Also I have used many nib brands, some scratchier than others as I only use the very fine ones for copperplate script. Brian G. Walker pointed me in the right direction immediately after I started showing interest in Copperplate and Spencerian: use saliva to prime the nibs.

[Cob]

Well things have changed a bit; I just received these pen holders and with the old nib in the MHR one can write quite well with any ink I have tried.

20044

Here's a sample; the Joseph Gillott nib was already in the holder; I gave it no preparation at all - it worked from the "off":

20045

Thanks for the advice and encouragement.

Cob

[FredRydr]

I am a novice when it comes to dip pens; I've been using fountain pen ink. Of course, there's no worry about clogging, so what type of ink do I look for? I'll keep the saliva in mind, too.

Fred

[Empty_of_Clouds]

All I have is this poor example. (Playing with the camera settings, I haven't a clue what I am doing).

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3821/19514839202_8be7526dcf_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/vJsDNS)Todd No. 1 (https://flic.kr/p/vJsDNS)

Sorry also for the poor writing sample. Skills of a baboon I'm afraid.

[RuiFromUK]

I am a novice when it comes to dip pens; I've been using fountain pen ink. Of course, there's no worry about clogging, so what type of ink do I look for? I'll keep the saliva in mind, too.

Fred

The latest ink I have been using is Montblanc Toffee Brown but that is just because I have a lot of that ink which I want to use up as well as liking the colour produced in the shades of copperplate.

As to which ink to use, as I said earlier any fountain pen ink, calligraphy ink and gouache have been fine with me.

You have a beautiful dip pen btw. It is gorgeous.

[RuiFromUK]

All I have is this poor example. (Playing with the camera settings, I haven't a clue what I am doing).

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3821/19514839202_8be7526dcf_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/vJsDNS)Todd No. 1 (https://flic.kr/p/vJsDNS)

Sorry also for the poor writing sample. Skills of a baboon I'm afraid.

Another beautiful dip pen.

[FredRydr]

The latest ink I have been using is Montblanc Toffee Brown but that is just because I have a lot of that ink which I want to use up as well as liking the colour produced in the shades of copperplate.
I have been using Toffee in my EF flex fountain pens, and I keep buying it even when I already have plenty!

Fred

[milkb0at]

I too am enjoying playing with dip pens and was frustrated by ink flow issues. I had most success with Diamine Registrar's, whereas Oxblood just would not work at all. On top of that you can't be sure if you've prepared the nib correctly (I just stuck it in my mouth). Even the Registrar's would occasionally blob or stick to the nib, depending on the nib or... who knows really.

Then I bought the Blots Iron Gall (http://www.blotspens.co.uk/acatalog/Blots-Iron-Gall-Ink.html) ink and some Higgins Eternal.

It's night and day. I can suddenly write paragraphs with perfect ink flow. Lovely. The Higgins will remain black until it suddenly runs out, whereas the Blots slowly fades. I like both.

It's meant that I've been able to explore more nibs and return to some nibs that I previously failed with. Now even tricky nibs like Gillott 303 or Leonardt Principal are fun (with an oblique holder).

[FredRydr]

milkb0at,

Ahh, this is interesting. So there are specialty inks for the job! (I suppose any calligrapher knows this.) I'll start my search with Blots and Higgens and see where it leads for inks available in America. Thank you!

Fred

[milkb0at]

I think Higgins is American, so you should have no problem finding that and similar. Not sure about Iron Gall options, though.

[Cob]

I think Higgins is American, so you should have no problem finding that and similar. Not sure about Iron Gall options, though.

There are quite a few iron gall inks available: ESSRI is a nice blue-black and reasonably priced (available from England - "Ecclesiastical Stationery Supplies Registrar's Ink") This is used officially here in England for marriage and birth certificates as it is of archival quality. Diamine produces a Registrar's ink also. Then there are Salix another blue-black and Scabiosa a delightful browny-purple shade from Rohrer & Klingner. I dare say that there are more, but these are the only ones I am sure about.

Cob

[milkb0at]

I meant iron gall inks specifically for dip pens, not the fountain pen friendly ones like Registrar's and ESSRI. I have Registrar's and it's nowhere near as good for dip nibs as the Blots, which would probably be disastrous for a fountain pen.

[Cob]

Thanks for that; I'll probably order a bottle.

It's worth pointing out julia161 on this forum sells Russian Raduga inks. I have tried the fountain pen ones and they are very good. She also offers inks specifically for dip pens.

I'll look for the link and post it here.

Here's the link. (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/11951-Nostalgic-Russian-inks-the-USSR-inheritance?highlight=Russian+Inks)

Cob

[FredRydr]

Cryptos,

I tried to reverse the colors on that photo.

Fred

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Like this?

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/538/19191614423_66293df21b_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/veU3kR)

[FredRydr]

Yep.