Just Curious: Why do expensive ballpoint pens exist?

[penwash]

Well the obvious answer is: Because there are people who buy those.

First of all, I was shocked to see some ballpoints that are priced alongside top tier fountain pens.

I wonder why? Why would one spend a lot of money on something that writes the same no matter what you do with it?
You can't tune, swap or grind the ball on the ballpoint and suddenly it writes differently, can you?

[jar]

Why do people pay more for steak when they could just buy hamburger? There is more to life than mere function.

[Miss Fountain Pen]

Aesthetics, ergonomics, and prestige. Or some subset thereof.

[Kaputnik]

Where does expensive start? I think the most I've ever paid for a ballpoint is about $39 for a special edition Fisher Space Pen. I've spent rather more than that for quite a few fountain pens certainly, but I've also found good fountain pens for less than $39. If you include vintage ones which I was able to restore myself, that even includes some excellent gold nibs and attractive vintage celluloids.

My attitude is similar to the O.P.'s in that I'd consider a ballpoint just a holder for a refill, and it's the quality of the refill that really counts. Buying a Montblanc ballpoint seems to me a bit like getting a Ferrari station wagon (if there were such a thing). Still, there are attractive ballpoints very well made with expensive materials, and can understand why they would cost more than your run of the mill Jotter.

It's unlikely that I'll ever buy another ballpoint, as I have a mini collection of classic Jotters and Space Pens, and use my fountain pens much more often anyway. But if I had never gotten into fountain pens at all, I could see treating myself at some point to a "fancy" ballpoint for $50 or so.

[ChrisC]

You could use the same logic for many pens...isn't the Pelikan series just a set of expensive holders for nibs that could otherwise go in Indian ebonite pens? More handwork probably goes into those pens anyway...

Or that everything from TWSBI's, to the humble Edison production line up to the Omas LE's for 3000+ USD are essentially just nib holders for Bock/Jowo production nibs..

[jar]

You could use the same logic for many pens...isn't the Pelikan series just a set of expensive holders for nibs that could otherwise go in Indian ebonite pens? More handwork probably goes into those pens anyway...

Or that everything from TWSBI's, to the humble Edison production line up to the Omas LE's for 3000+ USD are essentially just nib holders for Bock/Jowo production nibs..

Not all Bock/Jowo nibs are created equal.

[ChrisC]

You could use the same logic for many pens...isn't the Pelikan series just a set of expensive holders for nibs that could otherwise go in Indian ebonite pens? More handwork probably goes into those pens anyway...

Or that everything from TWSBI's, to the humble Edison production line up to the Omas LE's for 3000+ USD are essentially just nib holders for Bock/Jowo production nibs..

Not all Bock/Jowo nibs are created equal.

'tis true. on the other hand, the nibs can be bought loose from various online dealers and be fit to custom pens from people like Newton Pens, Edison Pens, Scriptorium Pens, etc.

As I've delved a bit into the custom pen world, I've realized that a pen is a nib holder. A beautiful one, yes, but still a nib holder.

[Kaputnik]

You could use the same logic for many pens...isn't the Pelikan series just a set of expensive holders for nibs that could otherwise go in Indian ebonite pens? More handwork probably goes into those pens anyway...

Or that everything from TWSBI's, to the humble Edison production line up to the Omas LE's for 3000+ USD are essentially just nib holders for Bock/Jowo production nibs..

You could put it that way if you wanted. The difference is that a ballpoint refill is a complete unit which could even be used as a pen by itself in a pinch, but cannot be modified in any significant way (apart from small hacks to get it to fit into a different pen). It's also disposable. A fountain pen brings together a number of components to make a complete pen, nib, feed, and filling system. It's also not tied to a small range of inks.

Any two ballpoints or rollerballs with a given refill are going to write about the same. I've used a Pilot G2 rollerball with a Montblanc refill, a tiny little bit of plastic trimmed off the end. The only differences will be how it feels in your hand, the cost of the materials, and how attractive the design is. Two different fountain pens with the same nib may write very differently depending on how the nib and feed have been tweaked.

[penwash]

Why do people pay more for steak when they could just buy hamburger? There is more to life than mere function.

Because steak is different than hamburger.
I get that there is more than just function.

But a ballpoint is a ballpoint. Is there a smooth, toothy, scratchy, feedback-y, upside-down, oblique, wet/dry, springy, flexible ... ball in a ballpoint? Like nibs in FP?

[penwash]

You could use the same logic for many pens...isn't the Pelikan series just a set of expensive holders for nibs that could otherwise go in Indian ebonite pens? More handwork probably goes into those pens anyway...

Or that everything from TWSBI's, to the humble Edison production line up to the Omas LE's for 3000+ USD are essentially just nib holders for Bock/Jowo production nibs..

To me, there is a difference. As the unit that houses the nib, the FP can either hinder or enhance the writing experience, precisely because a nib has many aspects (and characters) to it, that is capable of producing different effects.

But a ballpoint is designed with a ball, which one of the intentions behind it is to eliminate those "characters", making the instrument easier to use and cheaper to mass produce.
However at the same time, squash all the nuances of writing.

Don't get me wrong, my Fisher Space Pen has been with me through so many situations in so many years. But it's a $17.50 pen.

[nospam666]

I have spent around $79 for a ballpoint.

For me it is about ergonomics more than aesthetics. I use a Fisher Space Pen refill when I have to use a ball point because it requires no pressure; the ink cartridge itself is pressurized. It makes for a more comfortable writing experience.

And also for reasons of comfort, I prefer the Sensa squishy grip to all of the other Fisher Space Pen styles. When I can't use a fountain pen, I want to use the most comfortable pen I can.

[jar]

Why do people pay more for steak when they could just buy hamburger? There is more to life than mere function.

Because steak is different than hamburger.
I get that there is more than just function.

But a ballpoint is a ballpoint. Is there a smooth, toothy, scratchy, feedback-y, upside-down, oblique, wet/dry, springy, flexible ... ball in a ballpoint? Like nibs in FP?

Kinda. There is feels good, feels like crap, looks good, looks like crap, functions well, functions like crap and many other traits also found in fountain pens.

[mhosea]

First of all, I was shocked to see some ballpoints that are priced alongside top tier fountain pens.

I wonder why? Why would one spend a lot of money on something that writes the same no matter what you do with it?
You can't tune, swap or grind the ball on the ballpoint and suddenly it writes differently, can you?

Usually ballpoints of the same product group are cheaper than the fountain pens, but you're right that they can still be very expensive. I have bought a few. I bought them because I thought they were attractive. I'm not Jewish (despite having the last name of an Old Testament prophet) and so was not attracted by that angle, but I was nevertheless taken with the blue material that the Delta Dreidel blue ballpoint was made of, so I bought one. These can currently be had for less than $100 on eBay, which is, of course, quite expensive compared to just anything that accepts a Parker-style gel refill, but it did not seem too bad.

Then again, after carrying it to work and writing with it, I realized that I was not as enamored with the shape of the pen in my hand as I'd hoped. C'est la vie. But the resin (aka plastic) it's made from is just beautiful.

[nospam666]

Kinda. There is feels good, feels like crap, looks good, looks like crap, functions well, functions like crap and many other traits also found in fountain pens.
Yep. There are many forums that debate the advantages and disadvantages of different ball point and gel refills. Just like we see here with ink and nibs. There is quite a fanatical following of the pilot g2 and the Uni-ball signo.

[penwash]

Kinda. There is feels good, feels like crap, looks good, looks like crap, functions well, functions like crap and many other traits also found in fountain pens.
Yep. There are many forums that debate the advantages and disadvantages of different ball point and gel refills. Just like we see here with ink and nibs. There is quite a fanatical following of the pilot g2 and the Uni-ball signo.

No kidding! :)
I guess I shouldn't be surprised, after all, we'd argue about which leg should go into the pants first, right? :D

[VertOlive]

I've often thought that the person who is put off by the fuss and splatter of a fountain pen but who still wants an eye catching, "special" pen is the person who would buy a Dolce Vita ballpoint.

[TheInkluminati]

Why indeed!

Why, a fool and his money are soon parted I say!

I would never

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5658/21254896183_95466e4de1_b.jpg

CRAP!

[ChrisC]

I think ballpoints are good for experiencing highly unusual materials, such as the above HS. Other ones could the the Omas celluloids whose fountain pens can be over $500 in price.

[Sandy Fry]

Well the obvious answer is: Because there are people who buy those.

First of all, I was shocked to see some ballpoints that are priced alongside top tier fountain pens.

I wonder why? Why would one spend a lot of money on something that writes the same no matter what you do with it?
You can't tune, swap or grind the ball on the ballpoint and suddenly it writes differently, can you?

Why buy a BMW when you can buy a Kia Rio? Why buy a Rolex when you can have a Timex? As Jar said, it isn't just about function.

David

[ChrisC]

Admittedly, however, ebonite, celluloid, and Visconti's hydroscopic lava material do offer enhanced feel that will help with writing for long periods of time, enjoyably.

[penwash]

Why indeed!

Why, a fool and his money are soon parted I say!

I would never

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5658/21254896183_95466e4de1_b.jpg

CRAP!

Hahaha... that's funny (and a good looking pen).

Just to be perfectly clear (in case anyone misunderstood my intention), there is no ridicule nor condemnation at all behind my question. Just curiosity.

[penwash]

Why buy a BMW when you can buy a Kia Rio? Why buy a Rolex when you can have a Timex? As Jar said, it isn't just about function.

David

Not exactly what my question is about.

It's more like this: Given the same brand and model, a $3000 FP and a $30000 ballpoint. Why would you choose the ballpoint?

To me, you must *really* hate dealing with ink to choose the ballpoint :D

[jar]

Not exactly what my question is about.

It's more like this: Given the same brand and model, a $3000 FP and a $30000 ballpoint. Why would you choose the ballpoint?

To me, you must *really* hate dealing with ink to choose the ballpoint :D

And yes Virginia, many folk really do hate dealing with ink.

[Kaputnik]

Why buy a BMW when you can buy a Kia Rio? Why buy a Rolex when you can have a Timex? As Jar said, it isn't just about function.

David

Not exactly what my question is about.

It's more like this: Given the same brand and model, a $3000 FP and a $30000 ballpoint. Why would you choose the ballpoint?

To me, you must *really* hate dealing with ink to choose the ballpoint :D

Actually, for $3000 I'd pass on the fountain pen as well.

Maybe it will all seem less mysterious if we take time to wonder why anything exists. ;)

[pajaro]

I like ballpoints. So, I have Montblanc 164 ballpoints, Pelikan click-top ballpoints, Sonnet ballpoints, Waterman ballpoints, Cross ballpoints, Parker Frontier ballpoints, and others. I like the broad refills from Montblanc, Parker, Pelikan and Waterman.

I use ballpoints much more than fountain pens.

[nospam666]

This conversation reminds me of one I saw over on Bogle heads about why expensive handbags exist.

Back to topic. A lot of expensive ball points are given as milestone gifts.

[Neo]

Maybe it will all seem less mysterious if we take time to wonder why anything exists. ;)

If someone can sell it for more than it costs to produce and ship?

[Adhizen]

I have some Lamy 2000 ball point pens. They were pricy... I like how they looked and the way they are made. I have a huge dislike for disposable ballpoint pens. For me spending money on a refillable beautiful pen is my way of setting an e example to others... There is another way.... Also, I love my fountain pens yet some situations do require a ball point. I'm alway prepared :)

[Kaputnik]

Maybe it will all seem less mysterious if we take time to wonder why anything exists. ;)

If someone can sell it for more than it costs to produce and ship?

Actually I was referring to the universe, the old "why is there something rather than nothing?" question. Can I sell you a universe? :)

[brunico]

You could ask the same question about fountain pens. After all, you don't have to spend much to get a fountain pen that will let you


tune, swap or grind

and while it might seem crazy to buy a biro that costs a hundred times the refill, that's pretty much what lots of people do with fountain pens and ink.

People like to buy fancier things, for whatever reason. To me, buying an expensive biro would be like buying a diamond-studded bog roll holder. I've lived without owning a biro for twenty years, and if you want my honest opinion, then I think that tarting up a biro is like putting lipstick on a pig.

But evidently some people find that kinda sexy. ;)

[catbert]

Because more people buy ballpoints.

Why do expensive fountain pens exist? Because they foster brand cachet and an image of fine writing that helps justify the price of expensive ballpoints. Given some economies of scale when barrels, caps, etc. are somewhat interchangeable, it makes sense to diversify the ballpoint/rollerball line by adding a fountain pen at the top end. It’s the couture runway show of pendom.

That said, Mrs Catbert has a couple of vintage ballpoint and fountain pen sets in which the ballpoint component is a thing of beauty in its own right and not simply a fountain pen body with a different section and tip. One is a lever-actuated Montblanc 18, the other a cap-actuated Omas that resembles a Fisher space pen.

[Neo]

Maybe it will all seem less mysterious if we take time to wonder why anything exists. ;)

If someone can sell it for more than it costs to produce and ship?

Actually I was referring to the universe, the old "why is there something rather than nothing?" question. Can I sell you a universe? :)

No, thank you. At the risk of going off topic, how about just the mining rights? ;)

[penwash]

Maybe it will all seem less mysterious if we take time to wonder why anything exists. ;)

I see what you did there :)
You replace the context in which I asked this question, namely curiosity with mystery.

If we can't even ask a question out of curiosity, what would then be the point of a forum?

Anyways, I learned a few things out of this thread. Thank you all (again).

[Sandy Fry]

Why buy a BMW when you can buy a Kia Rio? Why buy a Rolex when you can have a Timex? As Jar said, it isn't just about function.

David

Not exactly what my question is about.

It's more like this: Given the same brand and model, a $3000 FP and a $30000 ballpoint. Why would you choose the ballpoint?

To me, you must *really* hate dealing with ink to choose the ballpoint :D

What if you just really "hate" fountain pens?

David

[Zhivago]

I have some Lamy 2000 ball point pens. They were pricy... I like how they looked and the way they are made.

Do you have the Taxus or granadilla wood ones? Both are beautiful woods. If only Lamy would make 2k fps from them.

I am very much an anti-ballpoint snob, though I did own a number of expensive ones years ago. Perhaps this is why my dislike for them is intense now. The only 'nice' or expensive one I have now is this Karas Kustoms Retrakt in brass.

http://i59.tinypic.com/15hdisg.jpg

I got it because it will also take certain gel ink refills (the G2 being one), but mostly because I really like brass. It is quite heavy and could be used as a mini billy club in a pinch.

I like having the pen, but I still don't like using it. Despite the positives, it remains a bp. Lipstick on a pig and all that. About the only traditional bp I come close to like using is the Kokuyo Fit Curve. http://www.jetpens.com/Kokuyo-FitCurve-Ballpoint-Pens/ct/889 It isn't expensive, but the grip makes it feel perfect in my hand.

[RNHC]

Aesthetics, ergonomics, and prestige. Or some subset thereof.

Nicely put. There is always a need for a ballpoint/gel/rollerball. Why not get it in a body that appeals to you?

[pajaro]

This is an odd question. About like asking why expensive fountain pens exist.

Truly there are moderately priced fountain pens and ballpoints that perform as well as any expensive pen. The expensive pens are made because some people want something made out of more expensive materials or a feeling of exclusivity, of using something that gives a feeling of quality and isn't just cheap. The difference between a low-end Montblanc and a high-end Montblanc is the bling factor and the exclusivity of the high-end item. You can't afford it, ha, ha, ha, factor.

[penwash]

This is an odd question. About like asking why expensive fountain pens exist.

Truly there are moderately priced fountain pens and ballpoints that perform as well as any expensive pen. The expensive pens are made because some people want something made out of more expensive materials or a feeling of exclusivity, of using something that gives a feeling of quality and isn't just cheap. The difference between a low-end Montblanc and a high-end Montblanc is the bling factor and the exclusivity of the high-end item. You can't afford it, ha, ha, ha, factor.

Maybe the question is odd to you because you don't see the difference between FP and BP the way I see it.
And that's perfectly okay.

[Adhizen]

I have some Lamy 2000 ball point pens. They were pricy... I like how they looked and the way they are made.

Do you have the Taxus or granadilla wood ones? Both are beautiful woods. If only Lamy would make 2k fps from them.

I am very much an anti-ballpoint snob, though I did own a number of expensive ones years ago. Perhaps this is why my dislike for them is intense now. The only 'nice' or expensive one I have now is this Karas Kustoms Retrakt in brass.

http://i59.tinypic.com/15hdisg.jpg

I got it because it will also take certain gel ink refills (the G2 being one), but mostly because I really like brass. It is quite heavy and could be used as a mini billy club in a pinch.

I like having the pen, but I still don't like using it. Despite the positives, it remains a bp. Lipstick on a pig and all that. About the only traditional bp I come close to like using is the Kokuyo Fit Curve. http://www.jetpens.com/Kokuyo-FitCurve-Ballpoint-Pens/ct/889 It isn't expensive, but the grip makes it feel perfect in my hand.
I do... They feel really nice.

[Bogon07]

This conversation reminds me of one I saw over on Bogle heads about why expensive handbags exist.

Back to topic. A lot of expensive ball points are given as milestone gifts.

This happens more often than I expected in the local penshop in Sydney.
Quite a few times I've heard people ask the shop assistant to look at or recommend ballpoint/rollerballs in the $100-$300 range as a gift for some one leaving the office or to sign a guest box at a wedding or some special other occasion.

[Sandy Fry]

Can I also point out that a ballpen will write on just about any old paper and that there are a few out there that take standard international cartridges.

Also, ballpoints/rollerballs/gel pens are virtually maintenance free. Not everyone WANTS to have to take the time to flush a pen or sometimes have to take it apart to clean it.

I use FP's almost exclusively but the humble ballpoint/rollerball has it's place.

On a final note. I say, if you are going to write you may as well write with something nice. I have to write things in pencil at work so use a nice mechanical one that cost a few hundred dollars. I could just as easily use a wooden #2 pencil that costs pennies but I CHOOSE to write with, what most people would consider, an expensive pencil.

David

[fly_us]

Because people have money and they don't want the mess of fountain pens. Not everybody enjoy the inky fingers. I suspect that the number of people know how to fill a fountain pen is lesser one that doesn't.

[Kaputnik]

...On a final note. I say, if you are going to write you may as well write with something nice. I have to write things in pencil at work so use a nice mechanical one that cost a few hundred dollars. I could just as easily use a wooden #2 pencil that costs pennies but I CHOOSE to write with, what most people would consider, an expensive pencil.

David

Not to argue with what you picked and are happy with, but an answer to that might be that there is a middle ground somewhere in there. I have bought modern mechanical pencils for up to $30, which is a step up in niceness from the perfectly good mechanical pencils that you can buy in pack of six or so for less than a third of that. I've got some vintage Esterbrook pencils which are nice looking and a bit different from what you would normally see. But a mechanical pencil costing a few hundred dollars has probably gone beyond niceness into the realm of luxury. Not that there's anything wrong with that.:)

[amk]

Well now... the Lamy 2000 Taxus and Blackwood ballpoints exist because too many of us who have Lamy 2k fountain pens want the whole family. :-)

Just a little digression. I get a perception from the various forums I inhabit that plenty of FP people see the value in a really nice mechanical pencil, but not in a really nice ballpoint. I wonder why?

[penwash]

Well now... the Lamy 2000 Taxus and Blackwood ballpoints exist because too many of us who have Lamy 2k fountain pens want the whole family. :-)

Just a little digression. I get a perception from the various forums I inhabit that plenty of FP people see the value in a really nice mechanical pencil, but not in a really nice ballpoint. I wonder why?

Speaking for myself, it's not about being a snob towards ballpoints, I love my Space Pen and won't trade it with anything.
But I love that thing because it's so darn useful and practical to carry around, not so much because it's FUN.

FP has several things that ballpoints don't (again, this is my list, feel free to disagree):

1. The physics thing, it's fascinating to see and think about how FP works, so simple yet beautiful
2. Tinkerable (is that a word?). If your FP does not write well but you like it, you can send it to a nibmeister or go DIY, there is fun, interactions, and anticipations to be had with these options. With BP, you toss the bad insert, find another one, rinse and repeat. That's it.
3. Line-variation leading to better-looking handwriting. For some reason I can't muster the desire to learn these using ballpoints, if that's even possible.
4. Sketching. I can't remember when was the last time I *enjoy* sketching with a ballpoint.
5. Ink. With BP, I can't have 12 different Green inks or 10 Greys to agonize, lose sleep, and argue with my daughter over :D

I may be demented or something, but these things constitutes a *lot* of value (and fun) in my book.

[Zhivago]

Just a little digression. I get a perception from the various forums I inhabit that plenty of FP people see the value in a really nice mechanical pencil, but not in a really nice ballpoint. I wonder why?

Pencils are a nice counterpoint to fountain pens. Only one uses ink and the other can be easily erased. The irony, of course, is that graphite is quite permanent if left alone; the same can't be said for many fp inks. Another reason for bp disdain is that they are what replaced fountain pens as the standard ink using writing instrument.

Penwash gave a good run down of some of the interesting things about fps. Another is the pleasure of watching them put ink on paper and watching the ink dry. Graphite has its similar fetishistic (in lack of a better word) pleasures: the different shapes the point becomes as we write. There is also the dust and tiny particles as the graphite writes and breaks off. The opening of HBO's Pacific mini-series showed this feature of pencils well.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrbEmTRhBAI

Ballpoints are just so...utilitarian. That is really the best I can say for them.

[nospam666]

Just a little digression. I get a perception from the various forums I inhabit that plenty of FP people see the value in a really nice mechanical pencil, but not in a really nice ballpoint. I wonder why?

Not here. I would rather write with a ballpoint than a pencil. Pencils smudge, they are messy, the lead break or needs sharpening, erasing causes dust.. . I just hate pencils.

[Avalona]

I own a number of ballpoint pens, mostly Lamy, Pilot, Parker, and Sheaffer (the cheapest I'll go now is Uni multi-pens).
Ergonomics and predictability are the main reasons for me. The higher-end ballpoint pens tend to be much more ergonomic than the cheap ones out there, probably because they're made to the same standard and similar design as fountain pens. And not all ballpoint refills are the same. Also, they write on almost anything and I can go weeks without needing to make sure the ink hasn't dried up. I just like having pens that I know will always be ready to go, don't make my hand hurt if I use it for extended periods of time, and, well, look nice too.
:noidea: Whatever floats your boat, I guess.

[Zhivago]

I own a number of ballpoint pens, mostly Lamy, Pilot, Parker, and Sheaffer (the cheapest I'll go now is Uni multi-pens).
Ergonomics and predictability are the main reasons for me. The higher-end ballpoint pens tend to be much more ergonomic than the cheap ones out there, probably because they're made to the same standard and similar design as fountain pens. And not all ballpoint refills are the same. Also, they write on almost anything and I can go weeks without needing to make sure the ink hasn't dried up. I just like having pens that I know will always be ready to go, don't make my hand hurt if I use it for extended periods of time, and, well, look nice too.
:noidea: Whatever floats your boat, I guess.

The very cheap bps (Bic Sticks and the like) are terrible for ergonomics; but there are numerous low end bps that have ergonomics as a selling point. The Kokuyo Fit Curve I mentioned above being only one of them.

I don't want to put words in your or anyone else's mouth, but there is this idea out there that bps are these near flawless writing instruments that will write on most anything and never skip, etc. While they are more versatile in these ways than fps, they are far from being without issue. I've had more bp refills dry up on me than I could count (Caran d'Ache refills being the worst offenders) and have had plenty of skipping and/or blobbing issues with various bp refills. Papers they don't like as well.

I get their convenience, but they aren't without their own problems.

[Pommel]

I get a perception from the various forums I inhabit that plenty of FP people see the value in a really nice mechanical pencil, but not in a really nice ballpoint. I wonder why?
I have a hard time writing with them.



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