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FP_GaF
October 24th, 2012, 03:39 AM
Recently, we had a discussion and poll on FP Geeks about the significance of the nib material for writing quality. The general consensus was that the nib material is of relatively minor importance compared to the tipping of the nib which is supposedly the same on all pens. This leads me to spin the thred (excuse the pun) even further and ask the following question:

"Have you experienced a general decline in the care taken by fp-brands when it comes to deliver on their tips?"

I was inspired to ask this question by a number of particularly nasty experiences with recent purchases of pens that I considered "grail grade". I bought a Visconti Homo Sapiens Steel Age Midi with a 23k palladium nib (review in preparation), a Faber-Castell Ambition (don't even bother to review) and most recently a Palikan Soveraen M600 (will review in near future). All three of them had significant issues in the nib department out-of-the box. All three of them were scratchy due to miss-aligned tines. All three of them had significant tooth because not enough care had been taken to remove the edges left by cutting the centre slit (I don't even mention the almost insulting carelessness with wich the slit is cut crooked and off-centre! ...actually, I just did, didn't I?) The Faber-Castell was the worst. In my opinion it has a flaw in the point that has been caused during production of the point (points are apparanetly melted out of a fine metal powder mixture using an electric arc; saw this on YouTube) so either the powders were badly mixed or badly melted together. Either way it points to bad quality control. All three nibs needed tuning and smoothing! And we are talking here about up to $400 pens in one case at least! :crazy:

I have over one hundred pens in my collection which I acquired over a period of nearly 20 years. Some are undiscribably smooth (e.g., a Sheaffer Targa and Legacy in my collection that write like the tipping is made of mercury... ). I have a small selection of Pelikans (400, 400NN, M400) with nibs that span nearly sixty years of production history and I can definitely say there is much variation in the quality. The more recent the more problematic is generally my impression. This is the case with most of my pens. There seems to be a peak around the 80s but that is also due to the fact that before that we look into vintage pens with used tips while strictly only NOS should be used to establish an opinion. More recent and quality control and care about craftsmanship seem to go down the sewage pipe faster than a greasy turd! (excuse my Klatchian) in favour of marketing hype and profits :mad:. I am talking about big companies here and not individual entrepreneurs who deliver excellent quality and do care much about what they do and produce (e.g., Brian Gray :applause:).

Luckily, I don't mind doing the tuning myself. But it is frustrating to say the least when you have to fight with a very bad point as was the case with the Faber-Castell :smash:. I was practically forced to regrind the tip :butcher:. Do I really have to send my pens off to a nib meister if I want to have decent quality? Am I just too picky?

Please let me know what you think. Tell me of your experience. And since we are already at it, here's a real corker: What defines a really SMOOTH nib (tip). How does it feel? How much tooth and residual friction is acceptable or even desirable (assuming we use the same ink and paper to establish an opinion in the first place)?

There we go! End of rant... :rant:

fountainpenkid
October 24th, 2012, 04:42 AM
I totally agree. A pen that is that expensive should write perfectly out of the box. There is no excuse. The manufacturer is probably already making some ridiculous profit on it (AHEM...OMAS), and then they don't even take the time to make a pen do what it supposed to do. No one wants a hunk of beautiful celluloid that doesn't write. I've had 2 Pelikan m400s, and they both were O.K out of the box. A bit too much tooth, but they wrote. You hear stories of people spending $300+ on a pen with some funky nib, and then it doesn't write. It doesn't write, and its only purpose in the world was to write. How absolutely, positively pathetic! I agree with you FP_GaF; you are harldy picky :)

manoeuver
October 24th, 2012, 04:51 AM
Hey Gaf. I think it's worthwhile to view these developments from a global/historical perspective.

It seems to me that the traditional European and American FP manufacturers are enduring a merciless squeeze from two corners: A. the market for their highly specialized product is shrinking and B. global competition is well into the ridiculous zone.

Without going into boring detail, it seems that manufacturers with high costs (US and esp. European companies) may be choosing to save money on nib fabrication and quality control. To just about anybody inhabiting this corner of the internet that probably seems like an absolutely suicidal choice. To a few it should represent a good opportunity.

manoeuver
October 24th, 2012, 04:54 AM
I totally agree. A pen that is that expensive should write perfectly out of the box. There is no excuse. The manufacturer is probably already making some ridiculous profit on it (AHEM...OMAS), and then they don't even take the time to make a pen do what it supposed to do. No one wants a hunk of beautiful celluloid that doesn't write. I've had 2 Pelikan m400s, and they both were O.K out of the box. A bit too much tooth, but they wrote. You hear stories of people spending $300+ on a pen with some funky nib, and then it doesn't write. It doesn't write, and its only purpose in the world was to write. How absolutely, positively pathetic! I agree with you FP_GaF; you are harldy picky :) Will, I do not believe any FP manufacturer is making ridiculous profit on anything.

fountainpenkid
October 24th, 2012, 05:05 AM
Will, I do not believe any FP manufacturer is making ridiculous profit on anything.
I do not mean that they are making a huge profit overall, but when you see a pen like the new OMAS Deco Paragon, listed for $340 with a titanium nib, you have to wonder...that pen is all plastic, doesn't have any significant gold content, and has pretty sparse trim. Its probably a great pen, and I'm fine with the price. Its an italian luxury item after all. But when it doesn't write, there is a problem.

FP_GaF
October 24th, 2012, 06:26 AM
Hey Gaf. I think it's worthwhile to view these developments from a global/historical perspective.

It seems to me that the traditional European and American FP manufacturers are enduring a merciless squeeze from two corners: A. the market for their highly specialized product is shrinking and B. global competition is well into the ridiculous zone.

Without going into boring detail, it seems that manufacturers with high costs (US and esp. European companies) may be choosing to save money on nib fabrication and quality control. To just about anybody inhabiting this corner of the internet that probably seems like an absolutely suicidal choice. To a few it should represent a good opportunity.

I think you have a very good point here, manoeuver. I still think it is counter-productive, to say the least, to save on the most essential (but alas most labor-intensive) part of fountain pen production. After all, as Will said, I want to write with it. Granted, there are pure collectors but I am a user-collector - in that order - and I am wondering where to go from here. Only buy from Binder et al.? Don't buy my beloved Viscontis and Pelikans anymore and switch to the TWSBIs and Edisons of the FP-world because at least they are significantly less expensive (and very good quality as already mentioned. TWSBI's success may in part be explained by what's going on at Visconti, Delta, Pelikan etc.)? Become a nib meister myself? What to do, what to do....

jar
October 24th, 2012, 09:05 AM
My experience has been slightly different. Of the last fifty or so pens I've purchased new only one has needed any adjustments to write superbly and reliably. In fact I can remember only one pen where I have needed an expert to replace the nib (fortunately I had a new nib sitting around in the parts box) and that was because a previous owner had done a major crease job on the pen.



http://www.fototime.com/A5B91AC292EC2D9/medium800.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/9C8C6A2803D2B8E/medium800.jpg


I've had nibs reworked and modified to suit a particular desire like making a cursive italic, but have only once had to send a new pen back or get the nib worked on because it had flow problems and that was relatively minor, a new Montegrappa Espressione I had John Mottishaw modify to cursive italic and that at first dried out over night. The nib wrote flawlessly though and only when it was filled, used and then allowed to sit unused for an extended period were there any problem. That is the kind of thing that would not show up even when each pen was tested before shipping.

KrazyIvan
October 24th, 2012, 09:06 AM
The first time I bought an Aurora (not that expensive for an Aurora, $100) I expected it to work out of the box. It didn't and I returned it even though I could have fixed the horrid case of baby's bottom. I could see it without any magnification. Then I read about brands that I associate with the high end (not just here) having the same problems. Maybe the shrinking market share is due to the not working out of the box syndrome.

On less expensive pens I don't mind fixing them myself but it really should not be the case either. That is, unless, I want to do nib modification.

manoeuver
October 24th, 2012, 10:32 AM
I think you have a very good point here, manoeuver. I still think it is counter-productive, to say the least, to save on the most essential (but alas most labor-intensive) part of fountain pen production. After all, as Will said, I want to write with it. Granted, there are pure collectors but I am a user-collector - in that order - and I am wondering where to go from here. Only buy from Binder et al.? Don't buy my beloved Viscontis and Pelikans anymore and switch to the TWSBIs and Edisons of the FP-world because at least they are significantly less expensive (and very good quality as already mentioned. TWSBI's success may in part be explained by what's going on at Visconti, Delta, Pelikan etc.)? Become a nib meister myself? What to do, what to do.... You know, it had not occurred to me that a significant number of hi-end pens will never be inked. It's a shame, but I can only imagine that makes skimping on nibbage an even more attractive proposal for a manufacturer. The less likely you are to be found out, the better. And if the only buyers who care already have nib-tuning skills, well then there you go.

And yes, I think if you can pick up some nib-tuning and smoothing skills you A: won't have to worry about what you buy cause you can fix it if you have to, B: can fix pens for people who can't do it themselves, and C: might be able to generate some income selling pens you've tuned and can guarantee will write.

Richard Binder can only tune and sell so many pens. I think there's room in the market for more folks to do something related. If you don't want to bother though, buy from Binder and rest easy.

fountainpenkid
October 24th, 2012, 02:42 PM
Maybe the shrinking market share is due to the not working out of the box syndrome.


I think it may sadly be the case... hopefully people like TWSBI or Edison will change it.

KrazyIvan
October 24th, 2012, 03:22 PM
With that note, Amazon listed their highest profit on fountain pens, if memory serves. The thread was on FPN somewhere.

JustDaveyB
October 24th, 2012, 03:39 PM
Nib quality out of the box has driven me to buy most of my new pens from either Richard Binder or John Mottishaw, both check and set for ink flow.

Bogon07
October 24th, 2012, 04:02 PM
Will, I do not believe any FP manufacturer is making ridiculous profit on anything.

I think they do in Australia. Lamy sets its RRP on high end pens (Studio,2000, Dialog etc) atleast $100-$200 higher than the US or UK. And most of the others seem to do that too. Here retailers don't usually under-cut the manufacturer's recommend price by much if anything.

I believe that manufacturers will set the price as high as what they think the market will pay.
This is to be expected as they are in business to make a profit. Cost control is always a part of equation and unfortunately quality is usually the first to be squeezed.

Not checking the quality of their nibs (or the rest of the pen for that matter) amounts to sheer arrogance and disregard for the customer particularly for those expensive pens. The brand becomes more important that the actual product. Or they are giving you their wonderful design and it is up to you to fine tune it to your needs.
Somewhat like the reputation Italian cars had in Oz in the 1980s 'great style; crap construction'

Maybe they don't expect these pens to be used much or by people who appreciate good writing qualities. Could be they are catering for the collectibles market where the pen is never unboxed so it can be sold as new much latter. This could be seen as ok if the pen is marketed as an ornament and not a writing instrument.
While in the local city pen shop I've seen many people come into buy pens as gifts ("we've $200-$300 to spend on a farewell present foutainpen") or only a specific occassion such as a foutainpen for signing a wedding register. In most cases they aren't bought on writing performance but looks and perceived luxury.