Adding flex to a Nakaya broad nib?

[Miss Fountain Pen]

So, I think there is a Nakaya with a broad nib ground to an oblique in my not-too-distant future. I was thinking about adding some flex to that. The thing is, I am not so much after the line variation from the flex (that's what the oblique customization is for) as for the soft feel. I have a Platinum SF nib that I love: the line variation is minimal, but I love the springiness. So... I was hoping to get that type of feel on a broader nib. However, I've never had a chance to write with a pen that had flex added to it, so I was wondering if such a nib would actually feel similar to a stock soft nib by Nakaya/Platinum. Does anyone have any experience to share?

An alternative would be to order a soft medium nib and have that ground to an oblique, but I'm a bit reluctant to do that because I suspect that I wouldn't be able to get much line variation from the oblique customization if I started with such a fine nib, plus I'm worried I'd find it too difficult to use. Or I could simply get a broad oblique with no flex... I'd be ordering from Mottishaw, btw.

[Jon Szanto]

John himself will be the best source of info and guidance on this. Be certain to describe the pen you enjoy (Plat SF) and what the characteristics are that you like. A Nakaya nib would be one of the last I'd consider adding flex to, but he'll know best. He ground a Nakaya B to a 0.7mm italic for me, took a look at how I write, angle, rotation, etc. Turned out perfect. Beyond that, unfortunately, there is *nothing* like using the different nibs to know the specific feels - words fail, pretty much.

[jar]

Yup, talk with John, best by phone. Send him some writing samples of what you like and if possible pictures or video of you writing so he can see angles, tilt, rotation and hand arm movements. John can fix you up.

Tell John what results you want and then let him decide how to best get those results.

[Miss Fountain Pen]

Okay, guys, you've convinced me: I'll talk to John. As soon as I figure out which finish I want, but clearly, that's not something anyone can help me with. :p I'll be getting a Naka-ai (my second one). Probably clipless. ;)

[rpsyed]

Also try asking about the "elastic" customization available for Nakaya nibs. That would probably provide the feel you are looking for.

My Nakaya Piccolo has a broad Mottishaw-ground left-oblique, no flex however. Mottishaw did a fantastic job but I kind of wish I had started with a double broad. The Nakaya broad nib is smaller than I thought it would be. Here's a review of that pen I did a while back. (https://www.reddit.com/r/fountainpens/comments/2qvqr0/review_nakaya_piccolo_cigar_kurotamenuri/)

[Miss Fountain Pen]

That's an awesome review, rpsyed! I love the line variation in that oblique. :)

I don't know about elastic... I think that would be too soft.

And yes, I know that Nakaya broad nibs are fairly skinny. But I rather like that thickness: I have two stubs and one cursive italic ground from Nakaya B nibs. I also have a .7 mm stub ground from a Nakaya BB nib, but that turned out to be my least favorite Nakaya nib (it's not a bad nib; I just like the other three better). Oddly, the .7 mm stub is the least forgiving of the bunch; aren't broader stubs supposed to be easier to use than finer ones??

[rpsyed]

That's an awesome review, rpsyed! I love the line variation in that oblique. :)

I don't know about elastic... I think that would be too soft.

And yes, I know that Nakaya broad nibs are fairly skinny. But I rather like that thickness: I have two stubs and one cursive italic ground from Nakaya B nibs. I also have a .7 mm stub ground from a Nakaya BB nib, but that turned out to be my least favorite Nakaya nib (it's not a bad nib; I just like the other three better). Oddly, the .7 mm stub is the least forgiving of the bunch; aren't broader stubs supposed to be easier to use than finer ones??
Oh OK, I see.


Hmm .. that's odd. .7 mm stubs should typically be more forgiving than a narrower stub. A nibmeister could probably soften the edges a bit or something, maybe?

[Miss Fountain Pen]

Yeah, it's a bit odd. I'm guessing it has something to do with the fact that the three nibs that started out as B nibs were full-width grinds, whereas the .7 mm stub started out as a BB (which is 1.0 mm in width) and was then made quite a bit narrower. I wouldn't say the nib is flawed: it writes just fine if you align it the way it wants to be aligned. But I can easily speed-write with my other three nibs (including the cursive italic), and the .7 mm stub definitely calls for more deliberate writing. I found it quite challenging to use initially, but I've practiced and it's gotten easier. Also, that nib does offer the most line variation of the bunch, and that's sometimes nice to have. :)

[tandaina]

So, I think there is a Nakaya with a broad nib ground to an oblique in my not-too-distant future. I was thinking about adding some flex to that. The thing is, I am not so much after the line variation from the flex (that's what the oblique customization is for) as for the soft feel. I have a Platinum SF nib that I love: the line variation is minimal, but I love the springiness. So... I was hoping to get that type of feel on a broader nib. However, I've never had a chance to write with a pen that had flex added to it, so I was wondering if such a nib would actually feel similar to a stock soft nib by Nakaya/Platinum. Does anyone have any experience to share?

An alternative would be to order a soft medium nib and have that ground to an oblique, but I'm a bit reluctant to do that because I suspect that I wouldn't be able to get much line variation from the oblique customization if I started with such a fine nib, plus I'm worried I'd find it too difficult to use. Or I could simply get a broad oblique with no flex... I'd be ordering from Mottishaw, btw.

If you want soft feel get an ELASTIC nib, not flex. Nakaya makes elastic nibs, they are *not* flex nibs and using them that way will destroy them. But they are wonderfully soft and bouncy for writing with.

[EloquentOgre]

Call me conservative, paranoid, overly concerned, whatever, but I am of the general opinion that adding flex to a nib (whether it's semi-flex or not) is just a generally bad idea. It is essentially taking a good, solidly constructed nib, designed for one purpose, and forcing it to behave like something it was not meant to be by deliberately tearing into an damaging its structure. The good flex nibs of yore were built from the ground up for it. Taking something off of today's assembly line, and manipulating its structure is just in essense weakening the nib, shortening its life., and trying make it do something you really need a nib designed from the ground up to do. If you want line variation in a nib not built from the ground up for flex, it seems altering the tipping shape is a much safer means of doing so without adding risk of cracking or otherwise permanently ruining the nib through normal use.

[Miss Fountain Pen]

First of all, thanks to everyone who has commented in this thread! :) I have finally made up my mind, and the upshot is that I chickened out and decided against any flex. :p I find myself in agreement with EloquentOgre's agrument, though of course, it may be that we're both quite wrong. :)

Anyway, the upshot is that I ordered a clipless Naka-ai in unpolished Shu with a broad nib ground to a left oblique. :) And now I wait a week or two for it to arrive to home sweet home. It'll be my first oblique nib, so I'm a little bit nervous, but also excited.

And actually, I suspect that I'll get a Nakaya with a soft medium nib ground to something or other (stub? CI? oblique?) at some point, but I'm in no hurry with this. One Nakaya at a time.

[dneal]

Oblique doesn't mean line variation. Stub or Italic does. Many vintage oblique nibs did give variation as well (particularly if they were broad, double or triple broad), which is where (I think) the misconception comes from. I have several vintage oblique nibs (OF and OM) that do not have variation ground into them.

Also, a Nakaya B nib is about as small as I would go for a customized grind. A Nakaya M will only show subtle results (I have one of each).

[rpsyed]

First of all, thanks to everyone who has commented in this thread! :) I have finally made up my mind, and the upshot is that I chickened out and decided against any flex. :p I find myself in agreement with EloquentOgre's agrument, though of course, it may be that we're both quite wrong. :)

Anyway, the upshot is that I ordered a clipless Naka-ai in unpolished Shu with a broad nib ground to a left oblique. :) And now I wait a week or two for it to arrive to home sweet home. It'll be my first oblique nib, so I'm a little bit nervous, but also excited.

And actually, I suspect that I'll get a Nakaya with a soft medium nib ground to something or other (stub? CI? oblique?) at some point, but I'm in no hurry with this. One Nakaya at a time.
Congratulations!! The unpolished Shu is so elegant and beautiful. I love that it's one of the finishes where the threads are also lacquered.

[penwash]

A newbie question, one would think for the price that these high-end pens command, we should be able to get them with a specially designed flex nib.
The gold in the vintage "wet-noodle" pens are still the same kind of gold we have today, correct? So how come we can't purchase a modern "wet-noodle" nib?

[Miss Fountain Pen]

First of all, thanks to everyone who has commented in this thread! :) I have finally made up my mind, and the upshot is that I chickened out and decided against any flex. :p I find myself in agreement with EloquentOgre's agrument, though of course, it may be that we're both quite wrong. :)

Anyway, the upshot is that I ordered a clipless Naka-ai in unpolished Shu with a broad nib ground to a left oblique. :) And now I wait a week or two for it to arrive to home sweet home. It'll be my first oblique nib, so I'm a little bit nervous, but also excited.

And actually, I suspect that I'll get a Nakaya with a soft medium nib ground to something or other (stub? CI? oblique?) at some point, but I'm in no hurry with this. One Nakaya at a time.
Congratulations!! The unpolished Shu is so elegant and beautiful. I love that it's one of the finishes where the threads are also lacquered.

Thank you. :) According to tracking, my pen is currently sitting in Customs. If they're quick, I might get the package as early as tomorrow. On the other hand, if they're slow, then it could take a while.... Seriously, though, this should get them something like $100 worth of cash, and surely they want my money sooner rather than later, so they really should hurry up, riiiiight? ;)

[Miss Fountain Pen]

A newbie question, one would think for the price that these high-end pens command, we should be able to get them with a specially designed flex nib.
The gold in the vintage "wet-noodle" pens are still the same kind of gold we have today, correct? So how come we can't purchase a modern "wet-noodle" nib?

It's an economy of scale thing. There just isn't that much demand for these nibs. It might seem like there is (because people who want them are very vocal about it ;)), but realistically, they couldn't sell enough of those nibs to make the investment worthwhile from an economic standpoint. And by the way, it's not a matter of nib material (basically, you need 14K gold, which is a relatively common nib material), it's that you need to shape your nib differently than you would a firm nib. So you need different equipment for the job.

Another issue is the fact that many people who want (or think they want) flex don't really know how to write with a flex pen. And that means greater likelihood of messed up nibs, and along with it, poor publicity (for instance, Stephen Brown sprung his flex OMAS nib and made a video about it; that can be seen as bad publicity for OMAS or as bad publicity for Stephen Brown, but only OMAS actually stands to lose money from it) and/or the need to fix a bunch of nibs under warranty. So... If you want a wet noodle, then the vintage market is the way to go.

ETA: About the OMAS nib: see, I think it's entirely possible that it was Stephen Brown's own fault (i.e. that he pushed the nib too hard). So I'm inclined to blame Stephen Brown rather than OMAS. But I very much doubt that I have more skill than he does, and so I suspect that if I were to get a pen with that type of nib, the same thing would happen to me. So, I won't buy it. I may "blame" Stephen Brown, but it's OMAS (and not Stephen Brown) that loses my money due to the sprung nib. So effectively, it was bad rep for OMAS (or at least, it's economically indistinguishable from bad rep).

[penwash]

A newbie question, one would think for the price that these high-end pens command, we should be able to get them with a specially designed flex nib.
The gold in the vintage "wet-noodle" pens are still the same kind of gold we have today, correct? So how come we can't purchase a modern "wet-noodle" nib?

It's an economy of scale thing. There just isn't that much demand for these nibs. It might seem like there is (because people who want them are very vocal about it ;)), but realistically, they couldn't sell enough of those nibs to make the investment worthwhile from an economic standpoint. And by the way, it's not a matter of nib material (basically, you need 14K gold, which is a relatively common nib material), it's that you need to shape your nib differently than you would a firm nib. So you need different equipment for the job.

Another issue is the fact that many people who want (or think they want) flex don't really know how to write with a flex pen. And that means greater likelihood of messed up nibs, and along with it, poor publicity (for instance, Stephen Brown sprung his flex OMAS nib and made a video about it; that can be seen as bad publicity for OMAS or as bad publicity for Stephen Brown, but only OMAS actually stands to lose money from it) and/or the need to fix a bunch of nibs under warranty. So... If you want a wet noodle, then the vintage market is the way to go.

ETA: About the OMAS nib: see, I think it's entirely possible that it was Stephen Brown's own fault (i.e. that he pushed the nib too hard). So I'm inclined to blame Stephen Brown rather than OMAS. But I very much doubt that I have more skill than he does, and so I suspect that if I were to get a pen with that type of nib, the same thing would happen to me. So, I won't buy it. I may "blame" Stephen Brown, but it's OMAS (and not Stephen Brown) that loses my money due to the sprung nib. So effectively, it was bad rep for OMAS (or at least, it's economically indistinguishable from bad rep).

I hear you on the economy scale, and the fact that flex comes from nib shape that needs special tooling setup for it.

But I may disagree on the the small number of people who would buy flex nibs.
The high price on anything with "flex" in the used market seems to indicate that there is enough demand for it.
In fact the existence of this thread is another indication.

And that's really the important factor, those who would a) buy a flex nib, and b) would like to try it. Being proficient in using it does not determine the size of demand.
Similar situation with photography, not a whole lot of people really know how to use those $4000 cameras and lenses (or be inclined to spend the time and effort to learn) but some bought it anyway just because they can and they want to try it.

My initial point was wondering why manufacturers who market $1000 pens and (much) higher -- like Nakaya, Danitrio, etc., can't accommodate the customer with a brand new, flexible nib.

Is it because most of those who bought such high-price pens tend to not use the pen, therefore offering a modern flex nib makes no sense?
Which is quite possible, if not comprehensible -- to me.

[Miss Fountain Pen]

Actually, I did not come up with the economy of scale argument. You'll hear many people say the same thing. Brian Goulet, for instance, makes this argument in his Q&A #96 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P8BAr-UnoE); it's the first question for that week, and it starts at 6:58.

And again, as I said, these nibs could turn into a big headache for pen makers. You know, guy/gal buys full flex nib, doesn't know how to use it (very few know how to use these nibs), ruins the nib, sends it back to the pen maker to have it fixed under warranty, posts a video on YouTube saying how s/he ruined the nib...

[rpsyed]

A newbie question, one would think for the price that these high-end pens command, we should be able to get them with a specially designed flex nib.
The gold in the vintage "wet-noodle" pens are still the same kind of gold we have today, correct? So how come we can't purchase a modern "wet-noodle" nib?

It's an economy of scale thing. There just isn't that much demand for these nibs. It might seem like there is (because people who want them are very vocal about it ;)), but realistically, they couldn't sell enough of those nibs to make the investment worthwhile from an economic standpoint. And by the way, it's not a matter of nib material (basically, you need 14K gold, which is a relatively common nib material), it's that you need to shape your nib differently than you would a firm nib. So you need different equipment for the job.

Another issue is the fact that many people who want (or think they want) flex don't really know how to write with a flex pen. And that means greater likelihood of messed up nibs, and along with it, poor publicity (for instance, Stephen Brown sprung his flex OMAS nib and made a video about it; that can be seen as bad publicity for OMAS or as bad publicity for Stephen Brown, but only OMAS actually stands to lose money from it) and/or the need to fix a bunch of nibs under warranty. So... If you want a wet noodle, then the vintage market is the way to go.

ETA: About the OMAS nib: see, I think it's entirely possible that it was Stephen Brown's own fault (i.e. that he pushed the nib too hard). So I'm inclined to blame Stephen Brown rather than OMAS. But I very much doubt that I have more skill than he does, and so I suspect that if I were to get a pen with that type of nib, the same thing would happen to me. So, I won't buy it. I may "blame" Stephen Brown, but it's OMAS (and not Stephen Brown) that loses my money due to the sprung nib. So effectively, it was bad rep for OMAS (or at least, it's economically indistinguishable from bad rep).

I hear you on the economy scale, and the fact that flex comes from nib shape that needs special tooling setup for it.

But I may disagree on the the small number of people who would buy flex nibs.
The high price on anything with "flex" in the used market seems to indicate that there is enough demand for it.
In fact the existence of this thread is another indication.

And that's really the important factor, those who would a) buy a flex nib, and b) would like to try it. Being proficient in using it does not determine the size of demand.
Similar situation with photography, not a whole lot of people really know how to use those $4000 cameras and lenses (or be inclined to spend the time and effort to learn) but some bought it anyway just because they can and they want to try it.

My initial point was wondering why manufacturers who market $1000 pens and (much) higher -- like Nakaya, Danitrio, etc., can't accommodate the customer with a brand new, flexible nib.

Is it because most of those who bought such high-price pens tend to not use the pen, therefore offering a modern flex nib makes no sense?
Which is quite possible, if not comprehensible -- to me.
I think with modern pens in the higher price brackets, their quantities are much lower, so getting tooling is probably out of the question. Handmade nibs seems to be the way to go. Romillo offers the flexible, handmade K-nib, which has a really unique shape designed to maximize flexibility. They also can make their regular shaped nibs semi-flexible. I recently got a Shawn Newton pen with a nib that was handmade by a jeweler local to Shawn. That nib is very flexible. My nib was only the second nib they've made and the first for a customer. They've since made another nib and its flexy too, according to Shawn. If they can do it consistently then they could be another modern flex nib option along with Romillo.

[Miss Fountain Pen]

I think with modern pens in the higher price brackets, their quantities are much lower, so getting tooling is probably out of the question. Handmade nibs seems to be the way to go. Romillo offers the flexible, handmade K-nib, which has a really unique shape designed to maximize flexibility. They also can make their regular shaped nibs semi-flexible. I recently got a Shawn Newton pen with a nib that was handmade by a jeweler local to Shawn. That nib is very flexible. My nib was only the second nib they've made and the first for a customer. They've since made another nib and its flexy too, according to Shawn. If they can do it consistently then they could be another modern flex nib option along with Romillo.

Good answer! :) We often assume that factory-made must be cheaper, but in reality, it's only cheaper if you can scale it sufficiently. When you have a tiny niche market, handmade is cheaper. Note that I said "cheaper," and not "cheap." ;) Indeed, the pens that you mention are anything but cheap. Shawn's nib costs something like $350 (on top of the price of the pen), and Romillo pens go for about $1000, I believe.

[rpsyed]

Good answer! :) We often assume that factory-made must be cheaper, but in reality, it's only cheaper if you can scale it sufficiently. When you have a tiny niche market, handmade is cheaper. Note that I said "cheaper," and not "cheap." ;) Indeed, the pens that you mention are anything but cheap. Shawn's nib costs something like $350 (on top of the price of the pen), and Romillo pens go for about $1000, I believe.

Oh, yes, definitely. When you get up there in price, having the nib handmade becomes feasible. Shawn's #6 size handmade nib is $285, including the feed (https://instagram.com/p/-J85WESFMu/). Not too bad at all!

The Romillo take on the flex nib is really fascinating. They've changed the shape of the nib to be really long, with thin shoulders that kind of curve inward.

A regular Romillo nib from a few years ago when they used Bock nibs next to a flexible K nib.
http://www.estilograficas.org/imagenes/examen/Romillopens-Essential-Writer-k-nib/Romillopens-Essential-Writer-k-nib-3.jpg

http://www.estilograficas.org/imagenes/examen/Romillopens-Essential-Writer-k-nib/Romillopens-Essential-Writer-k-nib-4.jpg

http://www.estilograficas.org/imagenes/examen/Romillopens-Essential-Writer-k-nib/Romillopens-Essential-Writer-k-nib-0.jpg


Leigh Reyes has a Romillo with the K nib and has written an awesome review of it on her blog. (http://www.leighreyes.com/?p=4342)

[Miss Fountain Pen]

That Romillo nib is gorgeous. :)

In principle, I'd love to try a handmade nib. But I have no immediate plans to get one. This is partly because, well, I've bought a number of pricey pens this year, and so it's time to back off for a little while. ;) And it's also that I have so many pens now (about 40, I think), and so of necessity, most of them are lying in a pen case uninked. I see no point in buying another pen that will get relegated to the pen case. So before buying, I now wait until I feel that a pen or nib is truly "calling me," by which I mean, until I'm pretty darn sure that it's going to be inked up and used and not be "outcompeted" by my other pens. I feel that way about the Nakaya that's on its way, but at the moment, no Romillo or Newton is "calling me" in the same way. But, six (or sixteen) months from now, that may change. ;)

[Miss Fountain Pen]

Whee! My pen is here! Here are some pictures. I know, I know, it's not the best quality. I don't have the best lights at home, and I'm definitely not a professional photographer. ;) But I thought I'd share anyway. :)

The first two pictures are my new Naka-ai in unpolished shu. The third picture is the portrait of my Nakaya quintet.

Now, how about the writing experience? Well... I got a broad nib ground to an oblique. I haven't quite figured out how to use it. :redface: I don't think there's anything "wrong" with the nib: if I align it the way it wants to be aligned, then it writes beautifully. But I haven't figured out how to hit the correct angle consistently. So now it's practice time!

Edit: I flushed the pen and changed inks. I'm now using J. Herbin Bleu Nuit, which is one of the wettest inks I own (I find that a wet ink can compensate for bad technique to a certain extent). Well, the pen writes much better now! Still a skip here and there, but definitely much better. And I'll keep practicing. :)

221922219322194

[jar]

With oblique nibs I always try for a really loose hold allowing the nib itself to orient the pen.

[Miss Fountain Pen]

With oblique nibs I always try for a really loose hold allowing the nib itself to orient the pen.

Yup. That sounds about right. Get the angle approximately right, then hold the pen loosely and write with very little pressure. That seems to be the trick. :) Obviously, I'll need some practice getting used to it, but once I do, I think I might like this nib a great deal. :)

[rpsyed]

Absolutely gorgeous!! All of them! Are the deskstand and far right pens two different shades of heki-tamenuri? Or is the far right Piccolo a shiro-tamenuri?

I got a broad nib ground to an oblique on my Nakaya Piccolo. It was my first oblique and it took me a few days to get used to. Mottishaw did a great job -- it's very smooth but it's also very sharp and the thin line is really thin. Now that I'm used to it, I love it though. I've found it's a nib really needs a lubricating ink to write smoothly. At least, for me, it does. Sailor Doyou Brown and Shigure Purple work great. I don't have Aurora Black but I've heard it's very lubricating.

[Miss Fountain Pen]

Absolutely gorgeous!! All of them! Are the deskstand and far right pens two different shades of heki-tamenuri? Or is the far right Piccolo a shiro-tamenuri?

I got a broad nib ground to an oblique on my Nakaya Piccolo. It was my first oblique and it took me a few days to get used to. Mottishaw did a great job -- it's very smooth but it's also very sharp and the thin line is really thin. Now that I'm used to it, I love it though. I've found it's a nib really needs a lubricating ink to write smoothly. At least, for me, it does. Sailor Doyou Brown and Shigure Purple work great. I don't have Aurora Black but I've heard it's very lubricating.

The Piccolo is a Shiro-tamenuri. :) It's a gorgeous finish; pity they discontinued it. The Desk Pen and the Desk Stand are both in Heki-tamenuri.

Anyway, I'm already starting to get a much a better hang of the nib. I'll pick up the nib, and it won't write, or it'll only barely write, with a lot of skipping. And then I'll try this angle and that, and then when I finally get it, it writes great. :) I imagine that with a bit more practice, it'll start coming naturally to me.

I'm glad I chose the unpolished Shu. :) You can never really tell what a color will look like; what you see on the Internet depends so much on how one photographs the pen, and also on screen settings. But I am very pleased with this finish, now that I can see it in real life. I like how, if you look closely, there's a bit of black underneath the red. You can't really see it in my photos, but you definitely can in person.

ETA: Sailor Shigure Purple (which you mention) is one of my favorite inks. :) My other Naka-ai (which is in Kuro-tamenuri with a B nib ground to a cursive italic) is currently inked up with it, and I love the combination. But because I enjoy variety, I wanted to ink up my new Naka-ai with a different ink. :)