Sailor equivalent of Pilot Falcon?

[sharmon202]

Anyone know which Sailor would be the equivalent to the Pilot Falcon? Especially Falcon with SF nib?

thanks!

[schweitzerp]

That's a very good question. And I'm also interested in what people have to say!

[dr.grace]

I've never heard of Sailor offering a flex nib. They do make many other very special kinds of nibs unlike those sold by any other manufacturer.

[migo984]

Sailor don't have a similar nib to the Falcon. Their speciality nibs mimic the form of fude pens and get line variation through the angle you hold the pen. Their King Eagle is amazing....

http://www.sailorpen.com/nibs.html

http://www.sailorpen.com/nagahara-story.html

http://www.nibs.com/SailorSpecialtyNibs.htm

[KBeezie]

Might have to look at some of their vintage models. All their current offerings are marked 'hard'.

[sharmon202]

Thanks all. I am not interested only in the nib. I am looking for size and feel equal of the pen in a Sailor.

[tandaina]

Thanks all. I am not interested only in the nib. I am looking for size and feel equal of the pen in a Sailor.

Honestly other than the flex nib there isn't much unique about the Falcon to really compare. It's a medium sized pen that is either very light if plastic or if the metal is pretty heavy. So any of the sort of medium sized plastic bodied Sailors will be vaguely similar in that way. Trying to compare across brands like that just isn't all that helpful because so much varies.

[penwash]

I've never heard of Sailor offering a flex nib. They do make many other very special kinds of nibs unlike those sold by any other manufacturer.

Interesting, so their "Music" nibs are not flexible? At all?

[tandaina]

I've never heard of Sailor offering a flex nib. They do make many other very special kinds of nibs unlike those sold by any other manufacturer.

Interesting, so their "Music" nibs are not flexible? At all?

*No* modern music nibs are at all flexible. They are all entirely stiff. The only flexible music nibs are antique and extremely rare and expensive for that reason.

(Though I vaguely remember that maybe Noodlers made a steel music nib that could achieve "flex" though certainly not what would be called flex in true flex nib.)

[Jon Szanto]

Interesting, so their "Music" nibs are not flexible? At all?

Look, people muddy the waters of "flex" and "flexible" nibs all the time. The Falcon sports a nib that has a very specific purpose, which is to flex quite a bit; the music nib on a Sailor, which may have some flexibility, is not designed for that purpose, but for the purpose of putting down a lot of ink when needed, and also being able to make both wide and narrow strokes (for music use, originally) without doing so by flexing, more like an italic would.

Many Japanese nibs come in "soft" varieties, and with their springiness can also lend some line variation, but - again - this is not the same as either a vintage flex-nibbed pen, created for wide variations in stroke, or the modern Pilot/Namiki Falcon, which exhibits similar, if less pronounced, variation.

[tandaina]

I wouldn't even call it "soft" but that's a bit of personal preference I realize.

[Jon Szanto]

I wouldn't even call it "soft" but that's a bit of personal preference I realize.

Right, and I'm relying on just using one for a short time at a pen show. A music nib has other reasons to exist, not script or handwriting that would be better done with a flexible nib.

[penwash]

I've never heard of Sailor offering a flex nib. They do make many other very special kinds of nibs unlike those sold by any other manufacturer.

Interesting, so their "Music" nibs are not flexible? At all?

*No* modern music nibs are at all flexible. They are all entirely stiff. The only flexible music nibs are antique and extremely rare and expensive for that reason.

(Though I vaguely remember that maybe Noodlers made a steel music nib that could achieve "flex" though certainly not what would be called flex in true flex nib.)

Can't a newbie ask a stupid question once in a while?

[Jon Szanto]

I've never heard of Sailor offering a flex nib. They do make many other very special kinds of nibs unlike those sold by any other manufacturer.

Interesting, so their "Music" nibs are not flexible? At all?

*No* modern music nibs are at all flexible. They are all entirely stiff. The only flexible music nibs are antique and extremely rare and expensive for that reason.

(Though I vaguely remember that maybe Noodlers made a steel music nib that could achieve "flex" though certainly not what would be called flex in true flex nib.)

Can't a newbie ask a stupid question once in a while?

Absolutely. The bonus is that you get a number of people giving you information, in a totally uncoordinated stream of data. Now it's up to you to sort it all out.

And it wasn't a stupid question at all. The whole "flex" thing has been baffling people for years, and not helped by certain contemporary manufacturers.

While we're at it, you could do far, far worse then spending an hour or so at Maricio's site (http://www.vintagepen.net/). You can gain a really good appreciation and education on flex from his many pages and examples.

[KBeezie]

Interesting, so their "Music" nibs are not flexible? At all?

The Falcon sports a nib that has a very specific purpose, which is to flex quite a bit;




Quite a bit? The falcons nib at best is springy/2x I wouldn't push it to 3-4x just because I'd damage it considering how much press is required to do that regularly. Can do a little flair, but not 'quite a bit'.

[Jon Szanto]

Interesting, so their "Music" nibs are not flexible? At all?

The Falcon sports a nib that has a very specific purpose, which is to flex quite a bit;




Quite a bit? The falcons nib at best is springy/2x I wouldn't push it to 3-4x just because I'd damage it considering how much press is required to do that regularly. Can do a little flair, but not 'quite a bit'.

Linguistics. I call this, below, more than springy. I did not say ultra-flexible, or wet noodle. You know, as well as I, that words are a poor substitute for the actual and the visual. And I never press a pen too far. YMapparentlyV.

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb204/EnvoyC/FP/20150924_095138_zpsrfvnbnqf.jpg

[mhosea]

I wouldn't even call it "soft" but that's a bit of personal preference I realize.

Which Sailor Music nib did you have experience with?

My Sailor 1911L MS nib was rather soft, yielding noticeable line variation with normal writing pressure. At any rate, it was the softest Sailor nib I've ever had, to be sure. One might argue that it isn't really a music nib, but that would be a tangent.

[sharmon202]

Sorry all, I need to be more clear. I am wondering what the Sailor equivalent is to the Pilot Falcon, exclude anything about nibs, if there is one. Does Sailor have a pen like, similar to, the Pilot Falcon. I have a Falcon SF and wonder if I could get a Sailor that is similar to it, excluding nib comparison? I understand Sailor nibs are different. I have really not seen any Sailors in person. I did not look much at them at the Dallas show.
thanks for your patience.

[Jon Szanto]

Sorry all, I need to be more clear. I am wondering what the Sailor equivalent is to the Pilot Falcon, exclude anything about nibs, if there is one. Does Sailor have a pen like, similar to, the Pilot Falcon. I have a Falcon SF and wonder if I could get a Sailor that is similar to it, excluding nib comparison? I understand Sailor nibs are different. I have really not seen any Sailors in person. I did not look much at them at the Dallas show.
thanks for your patience.

What??

You mean "does Sailor have a pen with a barrel and cap that are stylistically and cosmetically similar to the Pilot Falcon's body?"

It seems like a bit of an odd question, and one that could be easily checked out by looking at Sailor pens online. Offhand, I'd say there are some strong similarities with the Professional Gear line, and if you could compare them side-by-side, possibly the Pro Gear Slim II would be closest.

Wish we would have know earlier!

Here is the PG Slim II over the Falcon...

ETA: Strange, I had two pics linked from nibs.com - maybe they block them after a while. Anyway, you can see identical sized images over there and compare their similarities.

[tandaina]

I've never heard of Sailor offering a flex nib. They do make many other very special kinds of nibs unlike those sold by any other manufacturer.

Interesting, so their "Music" nibs are not flexible? At all?

*No* modern music nibs are at all flexible. They are all entirely stiff. The only flexible music nibs are antique and extremely rare and expensive for that reason.

(Though I vaguely remember that maybe Noodlers made a steel music nib that could achieve "flex" though certainly not what would be called flex in true flex nib.)

Can't a newbie ask a stupid question once in a while?

I wasn't calling anyone stupid, nor the question stupid either. I was *answering the question* asked! Just because my answer was "no" doesn't mean I was being mean. Now if hte question was actually asked tongue in cheek well then an emoji or something is needed because context is rather hard to read online.

[penwash]

I've never heard of Sailor offering a flex nib. They do make many other very special kinds of nibs unlike those sold by any other manufacturer.

Interesting, so their "Music" nibs are not flexible? At all?

*No* modern music nibs are at all flexible. They are all entirely stiff. The only flexible music nibs are antique and extremely rare and expensive for that reason.

(Though I vaguely remember that maybe Noodlers made a steel music nib that could achieve "flex" though certainly not what would be called flex in true flex nib.)

Can't a newbie ask a stupid question once in a while?

I wasn't calling anyone stupid, nor the question stupid either. I was *answering the question* asked! Just because my answer was "no" doesn't mean I was being mean. Now if hte question was actually asked tongue in cheek well then an emoji or something is needed because context is rather hard to read online.

No hard feelings.
I was just taken aback at the ... what's the word I'm looking for... emphatic tone to your answer.
I don't know, maybe I've exasperated you with my question (which I'm the one calling it stupid, not you).

Peace? :cheers:

[penwash]

I've never heard of Sailor offering a flex nib. They do make many other very special kinds of nibs unlike those sold by any other manufacturer.

Interesting, so their "Music" nibs are not flexible? At all?

*No* modern music nibs are at all flexible. They are all entirely stiff. The only flexible music nibs are antique and extremely rare and expensive for that reason.

(Though I vaguely remember that maybe Noodlers made a steel music nib that could achieve "flex" though certainly not what would be called flex in true flex nib.)

Can't a newbie ask a stupid question once in a while?

Absolutely. The bonus is that you get a number of people giving you information, in a totally uncoordinated stream of data. Now it's up to you to sort it all out.

And it wasn't a stupid question at all. The whole "flex" thing has been baffling people for years, and not helped by certain contemporary manufacturers.

While we're at it, you could do far, far worse then spending an hour or so at Maricio's site (http://www.vintagepen.net/). You can gain a really good appreciation and education on flex from his many pages and examples.

I appreciate the answer.
It's the tone that surprised me as I read it (not necessarily as it was meant).

Anyways, I agree that Vintagepen.net is a wonderful reference site. I've been there and will continue to go back.
Now if I can write one-tenth as well as he does...

[mhosea]

I wouldn't even call it "soft" but that's a bit of personal preference I realize.

Which Sailor Music nib did you have experience with?

My Sailor 1911L MS nib was rather soft, yielding noticeable line variation with normal writing pressure. At any rate, it was the softest Sailor nib I've ever had, to be sure. One might argue that it isn't really a music nib, but that would be a tangent.

I know it has nothing to do with the OP's purposes now, but just for closure on this point that no modern music nibs are "soft", let alone "flexible", I was searching through some files looking for something else and happened across my writing sample for the large-size Sailor 21K music nib. Apparently, I wrote here that it flexed from 1.2 to 1.7mm. It's not easy to see the line variation from flexing, since it's convoluted with the line variation from the stubbish shape of the tipping, but the crosshatch was probably done with no pressure to speak of, while the vertical line and integral-style S to the right of the crosshatch were probably done with some pressure. Although I don't own the pen now, I'm confident that if I quoted that range then, that amount of flexing was within its safety zone, required no excessive pressure, and had no post-flexing effect on the adjustment of the pen. I'm extremely cautious about flexing any nib, and as a result, I have yet to spring one.

22538

Now, whether this large 21K Sailor MS nib was normal or a freak, I wouldn't know. As I recall, it just felt like soft nib, something that was natural to squeeze a little pressure-based line variation from, though not like vintage flex. That's the best of my recollection.

[sharmon202]

Thanks everyone

[KBeezie]

Interesting, so their "Music" nibs are not flexible? At all?

The Falcon sports a nib that has a very specific purpose, which is to flex quite a bit;




Quite a bit? The falcons nib at best is springy/2x I wouldn't push it to 3-4x just because I'd damage it considering how much press is required to do that regularly. Can do a little flair, but not 'quite a bit'.

Linguistics. I call this, below, more than springy. I did not say ultra-flexible, or wet noodle. You know, as well as I, that words are a poor substitute for the actual and the visual. And I never press a pen too far. YMapparentlyV.

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb204/EnvoyC/FP/20150924_095138_zpsrfvnbnqf.jpg


Having used a Falcon with an SF and Metal Falcon with an SEF the line variation on that sample looks like abuse (more pressure than I would subject a nib to).

[Jon Szanto]

Having used a Falcon with an SF and Metal Falcon with an SEF the line variation on that sample looks like abuse (more pressure than I would subject a nib to).

Thank you for your valuable input. In my years of writing with fountain pens, new and vintage, I have yet to spring a nib, or cause any damage to a nib due to writing with greater pressure than is appropriate. And in over 40 years as a classical musician, if I've done anything at all with my hands, it has been to calibrate and finesse my touch, from a whisper to a roar. I'm confident that what I showed above is not only not abuse, but within tolerance of the nib as designed.

But, you know, whatever.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Looks like fun, Jon.

I've recently picked up a Pilot 912 with the FA nib and it has revealed a bit of a conceit in the pen world.

People say it's not as flexible as vintage, but what they don't really say is that it is not as flexible as a vintage wet noodle. In other words they don't compare like with like. The FA nib is at least as good as a vintage semi flexible nib if not better. I would say it is equivalent to a full flex nib.

I am basing my experience on Mabie Todd nibs (both fountain and dip). Further to this, I cannot help but feel that many seekers of flexible nibs are expecting them to perform beyond what is in any way reasonable. If you want to create massive swells or write in copperplate then get a dip pen.

So, you will read how the FA nib skips, railroads and is thoroughly unsuitable for Western cursive writing.

Horse puckey, as our US friends are wont to say.

I have had mine for a few days now and it writes like a champ, giving variation - and quite generous variation at that - when or if I wish it. It hasn't skipped yet, it hasn't railroaded - because like Jon I know how to use my hands properly - and it is filled with -horror or horrors - Diamine ink and not expensive Iroshizuku, even though the 'experts' aver it works best with their Pilot's own brand of ink (more horse puckey).


It sometimes seems as if there is a kind of turf protection going on among aficionados of vintage flexible nibs. I've said it elsewhere, but it is rare to see anyone post their everyday writing samples using a vintage wet noodle, and that should tell you something.

[moynihan]

Re music nibs, the Pilot music nibs (3 tines) i have in Pilot's size numbers, a 5 on a Custom 74 and a 10 on a Custom 742; Both are a tad soft.