Pelikan Athens City Series Fountain Pen

[ChrisC]

Hi, I'm selling a Pelikan Athens Cities Series fountain pen. The pen shows not even a trace of ink, and typically, this translucent material will easily show even minute traces. So the pen might be NOS, especially looking at its pristine, original packaging. The booklet and little tag on the clip don't even show the slightest signs of human touch.

It comes with its original 18k F nib. Pen comes with all boxes and papers.

Price is $650 shipped to CONUS.


International buyers welcome, please inquire.

22583225842258522587

[Jon Szanto]

PM sent.

ETA: And, yes, as I suspected: a 55.5% price increase in 5 days, as you could have purchased this for $450. Caveat emptor, FWIW, and all that.

If I'm out-of-line, the Admin can delete my post.

[ChrisC]

Price is the lowest on the internet. Last one on ebay sold for nearly $700. What is a "fair price" ?

[Jon Szanto]

Price is the lowest on the internet. Last one on ebay sold for nearly $700. What is a "fair price" ?

Stop trying so hard to miss my point, you'll injure yourself.

[ChrisC]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/171955445635

[Jon Szanto]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/171955445635

Irrelevant. I'm considering the profit, not the price.

[ChrisC]

Maybe we should have a cap on profits

[Jholden]

Beautiful pen Goodluck with sale.

[Jon Szanto]

Maybe we should have a cap on profits

Maybe we could just be a little community-spirited? Naaa, that's for losers.

Ayn is smiling, I'm am just certain of it...

[ChrisC]

Low (pre-owned) prices on a few pens:

Montblanc 146: $175
Montblanc 149: $275
M800: $250
M1000: $300

So everyone who sells above these prices is guilty of being mean-spirited? Of not being good members of the community? I still don't understand at what price you think I should be charging. I'm simply charging what others have been willing to buy for in the past.

[Jon Szanto]

I'm simply charging what others have been willing to buy for in the past.

Yep. Very shortly after paying a lot less for it, retail. An NOS pen, from all we can tell. Not used. And certainly no need to make it available at a nice price for forum members.

"Hey, chumps, I realize you were asleep at the switch, but I picked it up real quick and my favor to you, my fellow forum members, is to jack the price up and make a quick killing. Don't be h8n, I'm just an honest bidness man!"

Honestly, Chris, I'll bow out. Go on with your sale, good fortune to you. I'm willing to bet my umbrage isn't widely shared, and I've probably pissed people off. I'll deal with it.

[Chrissy]

I am open to selling it without boxes and papers. The price will then drop to $675 shipped, but the buyer will pay via Paypal Gift, giving up any return privileges.


I'm sorry to say this, but this isn't permitted by PayPal. Not only would your buyer 'have to give up any return privileges' but if for any reason it didn't arrive, then he wouldn't be able to claim for non-delivery either.

Be honest, would you have bought it from FPH on that basis?

[heraclitus682]

I see more and more sellers on this forum asking for paypal gift. It's really starting to turn me off. That's one sales rule that I would love to see makes its way over from FPN.

[Crazyorange]

Wow. Bought on 12/22/15. [emoji857]

[SeminarianMike]

If I had the money I would buy it beautiful pen at I would say a reasonable price

[ChrisC]

I am open to selling it without boxes and papers. The price will then drop to $675 shipped, but the buyer will pay via Paypal Gift, giving up any return privileges.


I'm sorry to say this, but this isn't permitted by PayPal. Not only would your buyer 'have to give up any return privileges' but if for any reason it didn't arrive, then he wouldn't be able to claim for non-delivery either.

Be honest, would you have bought it from FPH on that basis?

Point taken, and I've changed the post accordingly.

[Hawk]

With patience, one should be able to find one selling at roughly retail price. Save your nickels first and maybe it will be a reality besides saving hundreds of SSS.

[Sandy Fry]

I have bought a few pens from FPH on their " Super Special " page. I bought them because I loved the pens and the prices were too good to pass up. Yeah, I could have sold them on again and made a huge healthy profit but would never do it here to another FPN member. I even considered buying that particular Pelikan Athens when it was listed there but I am not a fan of Pelikans so passed it over.

No rule against selling a pen, you just bought cheap, for a healthy profit but it ain't gonna win you many friends when you try to do it here.

@Jon...not many would have had the gonads to speak up...I applaud you.

David

[ChrisC]

Call me profit-seeking, and that is fine because it's TRUE. I'm proud to say that. Profit-seeking is a societal good. Any basic economics course will teach that. But "caveat emptor" .... what are you trying to imply? I'm a 100% honest seller. I have never cheated anyone on a pen here or on eBay. My prices may not be below market price but the pens are awesome and the descriptions are accurate.

I bought the Athens at below market price, and now I'm selling it at market price.

This also calls into question what a "fair price" is. What exactly should I have charged? Is the profit a problem? How much do our favorite retailors, vintage dealers, and nib meisters charge? Should the retailers charge closer to wholesale cost? Does the commission rate of vintage dealers need to be 35%? Why not 30? 25? Why do some nib meisters charge so much? You telling me they couldn't do it for $10 less? Are they "gouging" ? NO...Why do people get to charge what they charge? Because other people outbid other people. What is wrong with that? If someone is willing to pay more, I'm gonna sell it to them.

And I know that some here have said that what I did with this Athens pen isn't "community oriented" or that it's not the time and place to do this. In that case, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't think there's anything wrong with seeking a profit and providing a service that people want.

That said, I've realized it was a mistake to include the spiel about where the pen was bought.

[bluesea]

These type of discussions are imho, disrespectful to the seller. In terms of issues, where do they stop and where so they end?

If this was a community of adults, then sellers should be able to post and sell their items unmolested. Potential buyers should be afforded the given, that they will use their own due diligence to evaluate a purchase for their own needs.

If this "community" preferred to limit certain selling behaviors, then rules should be set up to do so.

[Jon Szanto]

That said, I've realized it was a mistake to include the spiel about where the pen was bought.

Yes, when all else fails, be deceptive. I mean, Chris, you just aren't understanding at all why this has bothered people. Honestly, the more you try to defend your avarice, the more it is going to bother people. Because, you know...


http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/56143975bd86ef195c8b4b66/2-weeks-after-controversial-pharma-ceo-martin-shkreli-announced-he-would-lower-the-price-of-daraprim-its-the-exact-same-price.jpg

That. That is the image you project, and I think there is a certain trend in society to reject the whole Gordon Gecko "greed is good" thing. Not that I anticipate this denting your pride one bit. And I'd like to make it clear that it is the actions you have taken, and the principle behind them, that bothers me in this instance, and that I have no reason to believe that you are a malicious person or a bad guy. We might have an ok time over an adult beverage in a pub somewhere, but when you go to bat for capitalism over community, it calls into question a few things within the community.

[pajaro]

This might be disrespectful to the seller, but it's a pretty frank discussion, and if it helps a seller realize he might get into trouble asking for a Paypal practice Paypal doesn't allow, that might help the seller. Sometimes frank talk is helpful. The seller in a free economy may ask whatever he wants, but will he get it or have to negotiate a lower price? Who knows?

[penwash]

I am honestly shocked to find this kind of discussion in this forum.

If all Chris has ever done in this forum is selling and never contributed anything else, then I can see the reason to call him out, but not on the principle that he knew something that his potential buyers may not know, then insinuating that he's evil and greedy.

Information or knowledge is valuable. Fair trade has been conducted for thousands of years via the knowledge of where to get goods at lower price and sell it at higher price. All of the vendors of good to excellent standing in the pen community live off the profit that they generated using this very same method. Help me understand how is this singularly different?

DISCLAIMER: I do not know Chris and I have no reason to "defend" him other than this is a simple exercise of the free market principle that should not be condemned in the name of "good will to the community." Not that I have anything against doing good for the community.

In my view, the only reasonable reminders in this thread are Chrissy's caution against the abuse of Paypal Gift feature (I have repeatedly and will continue to decline the "good will" from buyers who offered to pay via PP Gift, because even though I dislike the Paypal "hit", I accept that it is part of the same free market principle).

[Abdulquyyum]

I agree with bluesea and penwash, only mistake I see that Chris did was asking for PayPal gift. I think anyone who wants to buy a pen or for that matter anything has to do some research to see if what they are paying is the best price they are getting. In case unable to decide One can ask any senior member on this forum if the asking price is reasonable.

Believe me I have been burnt before paying more for a pen, and it is a sore feeling but I blame myself. I worked hard to earn that money and I should be responsible enough to check the facts before buying them.

[Laura N]

I don't think there's anything wrong with seeking a profit and providing a service that people want.

That said, I've realized it was a mistake to include the spiel about where the pen was bought.

1. How is it a "service that people want" to snap up a pen intending to resell it for $250 more the minute you receive it? It's not.

That's an especially notable increase when one is a private person, selling outside eBay, and then trying to get around Paypal rules and protection to boot. Because a private seller sells without the guaranty offered by a retailer or professional dealer, and without the Buyer Protection offered by eBay, and, under your original offer's terms, perhaps without even Paypal protection. There is no value added, no special knowledge you've employed or work you've done. You don't even want this thing. It looks like it's just something you want to sell as quickly as possible, with as little responsibility as possible, making as much money as possible. That's certainly not illegal. But it's not a "service" to anyone but yourself.

A "service" would have been to post that "FPH has some great pens for sale right now."

2. Your mistake wasn't boasting. People who know these pens already knew. Newsflash: people saw the original listing, then yours.

3. But hey, I know no one is going to change your mind or values. People are who they are. And you'll certainly find people who are like-minded here. [And, my goodness, it seems you already have.] But I always think it's better to be honest and frank than to coat what one is doing with blather about "service" and "societal good." Or "free market." That brings out the people like me who dislike hypocrisy. Also, a lot of us have taken more than "basic economic courses," so we don't all put our hands over our hearts, hum the national anthem and tear up after hearing the words the "free market."

TLDR? Trying to be a profiteer is not being a hero. Yes, it's one possible type of behavior. You see it a lot during wartime, after natural disasters and under other exigent circumstances. The heroes are the guys helping others.

[Laura N]

I am honestly shocked to find this kind of discussion in this forum.

If all Chris has ever done in this forum is selling and never contributed anything else, then I can see the reason to call him out, but not on the principle that he knew something that his potential buyers may not know, then insinuating that he's evil and greedy.

Information or knowledge is valuable. Fair trade has been conducted for thousands of years via the knowledge of where to get goods at lower price and sell it at higher price. All of the vendors of good to excellent standing in the pen community live off the profit that they generated using this very same method. Help me understand how is this singularly different?

DISCLAIMER: I do not know Chris and I have no reason to "defend" him other than this is a simple exercise of the free market principle that should not be condemned in the name of "good will to the community." Not that I have anything against doing good for the community.

In my view, the only reasonable reminders in this thread are Chrissy's caution against the abuse of Paypal Gift feature (I have repeatedly and will continue to decline the "good will" from buyers who offered to pay via PP Gift, because even though I dislike the Paypal "hit", I accept that it is part of the same free market principle).

He's not a vendor. He's a private seller on an internet forum and you know nothing about him. He bought from the vendor (who offers warranty and return privileges) to immediately resell without such protections at a higher price. He even tried to get someone to buy it (at premium price) with no buyer protection. When FPN apparently made him edit that out of his ad over there, he kept it in over here. Until people complained. He quotes as comparables items sold on eBay, but an eBay purchase gives the buyer not only Ebay's excellent buyer protection but also Paypal's protection (and allows one to use one's credit card for a further layer of protection). And an eBay seller pays fees. He knows this; he seems pretty smart.

Dealers with "excellent standing in the pen community" have reputations and warranties (and often overhead and employees, and always taxes and expenses). That's why they can and must charge more. People who sell on internet forums don't have the same costs, the same warranty and the same indicia of reliabilty, and that's why they generally charge less.

Then there are those who try to have their cake and eat it, too, and some of them do just fine. And some people think that's really cool and want to be like that. But not everyone does. That's all.

He didn't use any advantage in information or knowledge. He just bought a pen faster than other people, some of whom probably had been wanting it for years, and he did so only because he thought he could resell it at a large profit. And knowing that if he didn't -- if he couldn't even get $495 for it -- or a 10 percent profit -- before he had to pay off his credit card, Fountain Pen Hospital would take it back. He has zero risk. It's not even a gamble. Because Fountain Pen Hospital is a real, legitimate and excellent vendor.

I feel really bad for the person who would have wanted that pen at a reasonable price, myself. But I guess I should be thinking, "sucker!" Right?

Hey, though, I think you're the one who thinks I'm a person in "a gang." So I'm sure I'm the wrong one here, and you've already stopped reading.

I sold something (very small, not even a tenth of this price) on FPN a few months ago. The buyer was new and asked "Should I do Friends and Family or Goods and Services?" And here's what I said: "You don't know me, and Friends and Family gives you no protection if I'm not an honest seller or the item doesn't arrive, so you should do Goods and Services." But people with those sort of morals or scruples are obviously not "with it," right? They're the ones who should just shut up. Because they are disrespectful. And don't understand the free market.

PS. - I'm directing this at you because you asked. Not at the seller. The seller didn't actually attack anyone else, and I kind of like that about him, I have to admit.

[heraclitus682]

The seller has been very up front and polite through all this. All he did was try to sell a pen for more than he paid for it. I know I've done it when I've gotten a good deal on ebay. I think most of us have done it. I don't care for sellers asking for paypal gift, but other than that I see no issue from this seller. Plus, we are giving him lots of advertisement as we keep bumping his post to the top.

[migo984]

The seller has been very up front and polite through all this. All he did was try to sell a pen for more than he paid for it. I know I've done it when I've gotten a good deal on ebay. I think most of us have done it. I don't care for sellers asking for paypal gift, but other than that I see no issue from this seller. Plus, we are giving him lots of advertisement as we keep bumping his post to the top.

Sanity, at last. I don't think I've read anything as daft or pompous as the finger-wagging lecturing in this thread. It's just a pen he's trying to make a profit on, not life-saving drugs! You're all informed (mostly) adults - no-one's trying to rob little children of their sweeties. People can buy or not buy - no-one's forcing them to pay more than they're willing to.

[Hawk]

Chris, you found a bargain and wanted to flip the pen within a few days, for a profit. Nothing wrong with that. People all over are in the business doing this.
Why did you post it on this forum? Members, who in the most part, consider each other friends (even if we have never met). People on this forum and other forums sell for the purpose of helping their peers with their need or desire and fill a hole in their collection. Many of these sellers feel good doing this and may take a loss because it meets their plan of moving a pen in order to pay for something else. (You know who you are).
Ebay would have been a better venue where 'buyer beware' is implied and uninformed (and informed) buyers exist. Besides, there are more buyers out there that would assure you of a quicker sale for the price you want. And, as Laura said, they would have protection with the sale (if it were ever needed).
The glass is half full for me. I, for one, have learned a valuable lesson. Buying, even from Senior Members, requires one to do their homework and find out which sellers they can trust. (Other sellers, I don't believe this would apply to you).
I hope you enjoy the Peikan, they are great pens.

[ChrisC]

The seller has been very up front and polite through all this. All he did was try to sell a pen for more than he paid for it. I know I've done it when I've gotten a good deal on ebay. I think most of us have done it. I don't care for sellers asking for paypal gift, but other than that I see no issue from this seller. Plus, we are giving him lots of advertisement as we keep bumping his post to the top.

I've taken the point about not asking for Paypal gift. It won't happen again, and I'd be all for setting an official rule against it.

Regarding profits, economic ideologies, etc, as I've said before, the other posters and I will have to agree to disagree about what is and isn't community oriented.

[penwash]

Hey, though, I think you're the one who thinks I'm a person in "a gang." So I'm sure I'm the wrong one here, and you've already stopped reading.

PS. - I'm directing this at you because you asked. Not at the seller. The seller didn't actually attack anyone else, and I kind of like that about him, I have to admit.

Hi Laura,
My name is Will.
Prior to this conversation, I don't think we ever sent messages directly towards each other.
I did not accuse anyone to be in a "gang." Never have, not in this forum, or any other.
If I had offended you without knowing it, please accept my apology.

But I think you mistake me as someone else. :)

I respect everyone in the forum as adults who can (and willing to, within reasons) converse reasonably.
I do not believe in ad hominem attack, and as far as I can remember, I did no such thing in this thread.
I simply disagree with the painting of Chris as "evil" and "greedy" just because he is selling something that he owned legally.

Now, to your explanation, I accept and agree that reputable dealers offers warranties and such.
But offering warranties is the choice of the seller, as it is the choice of the buyer to either demand one or be okay without it.

What I'm simply trying to say is this. If Chris was able to sell the pen at the asking price, and the buyer is happy with the pen and his terms, how is that different with buying from FPH or any other vendors? <-- this is a rethoric question, intended to encourage thinking, not trying to fish for answers :)

[Jon Szanto]

Sanity, at last. I don't think I've read anything as daft or pompous as the finger-wagging lecturing in this thread. It's just a pen he's trying to make a profit on, not life-saving drugs! You're all informed (mostly) adults - no-one's trying to rob little children of their sweeties. People can buy or not buy - no-one's forcing them to pay more than they're willing to.

Who is lecturing who now?

Respectfully,
Jon the Insane

[Jon Szanto]

I simply disagree with the painting of Chris as "evil" and "greedy" just because he is selling something that he owned legally.

Just because you have made a legal sale does not remove the avarice from a particularly egregious transaction. As in this case.

And I'll go on record: I do not believe, for one blessed minute, that anyone who has pronounced this opportunity to be of sound business ethics would not themselves be mightily pissed off had they bought said item, only to find they had just been bent over and ravaged. Just all part of the game, eh, folks?

No, I don't think so.

But, hey, the OP is completely at ease with his stance, and still sees no harm whatsoever. And he'll maximize his profit on the next sucker to come along as soon as that opportunity appears, I have no doubt. Or, maybe I should just say "I have a good suspicion." Then again, past performance is not an indicator of future returns.

[Marsilius]

I've been thinking about this thread and thought I would say something well-intentioned but probably useless. Simply put, on the one hand, someone should be allowed to charge whatever they like of course; on the other, someone else should also be allowed to comment on it.

But I was also thinking about the strong reactions between "capitalism" and "community." I can't speak for Jon of course, but I bet he knows what I mean when I mention how strong the community mentality can be in the professional music world. Yes there are union scales, and yes it is a business. But teachers often teach lessons for free or for almost nothing as "professional courtesy" to starving students. A distinction tends to arise between somebody paying for your services (weddings, etc.) and those people who are part of your inner community. You don't tend to try to "make money" off the latter. There is often an such a strong community ethic in music that some people get upset when they see someone treating it as "just a business."

This may not have any bearing on this thread, and I am not criticizing capitalism by any means, but I am hearing resonances of that music community ethic in Jon's posts.

[inklord]

Sanity, at last. I don't think I've read anything as daft or pompous as the finger-wagging lecturing in this thread. It's just a pen he's trying to make a profit on, not life-saving drugs! You're all informed (mostly) adults - no-one's trying to rob little children of their sweeties. People can buy or not buy - no-one's forcing them to pay more than they're willing to.

Who is lecturing who now?

Respectfully,
Jon the Insane
With regard to "informed" - it was Jon who informed us, at least some of us, by alerting us to such a scandalous conduct in a community of like-interested afficionados. Yesterday I was fortunate enough to shop at a 'fairly local' (1hr 30mins away) brick and mortar store, and nobody there showed undue avarice. Capitalism? I'm mostly OK with that concept, but civility, and restraint of greed are the virtues that make me come back to the marketplace!

[migo984]

Sanity, at last. I don't think I've read anything as daft or pompous as the finger-wagging lecturing in this thread. It's just a pen he's trying to make a profit on, not life-saving drugs! You're all informed (mostly) adults - no-one's trying to rob little children of their sweeties. People can buy or not buy - no-one's forcing them to pay more than they're willing to.

Who is lecturing who now?

Respectfully,
Jon the Insane

Ah the predicted response. (I was always a fan of Mystic Meg* )

Cos I bore easily - yes, another flaw in my character - I'm happy to leave/keep quiet/withdraw and let you to carry on with this daftest of threads.

*Sarcasm seems to be allowed ("respectfully"?) so hopefully I'm OK with that comment.

[penwash]

I simply disagree with the painting of Chris as "evil" and "greedy" just because he is selling something that he owned legally.

Just because you have made a legal sale does not remove the avarice from a particularly egregious transaction. As in this case.

And I'll go on record: I do not believe, for one blessed minute, that anyone who has pronounced this opportunity to be of sound business ethics would not themselves be mightily pissed off had they bought said item, only to find they had just been bent over and ravaged. Just all part of the game, eh, folks?

No, I don't think so.

But, hey, the OP is completely at ease with his stance, and still sees no harm whatsoever. And he'll maximize his profit on the next sucker to come along as soon as that opportunity appears, I have no doubt. Or, maybe I should just say "I have a good suspicion." Then again, past performance is not an indicator of future returns.

Jon,
From all the conversations I had with you both in this forum and outside, I like you and we probably see a lot of things in the same light.
I just wish that you say to Chris something along the lines of: "Come on man, I know where you get this, where's your community spirit?" and leave it at that.
Let the other adults in this group make up their own mind.

But instead you went on with the severity (like "bent over and ravaged" ... really?) that I have never seen someone do to a fellow forum member (maybe I live a sheltered "internet life" :) ).
Let me ask this, is Chris not part of the community that you defend so strongly?
Is this how a "wayward" member ought to be treated in this "nice" community that is worth defending so strongly?

I think I've said my piece (and peace). I have nothing else to add that will make this thread more ... interesting than it already is.

One thing bugs me: Laura, if you're still reading, did you or did you not mistake me as someone else? I hate the feeling that I have offended someone that much but have no recollection of doing so. (Yes, I know the PM system works, that's my next step if I still haven't heard from her).

[Jon Szanto]

From all the conversations I had with you both in this forum and outside...

Argh.

Well, just to be timely: I just made it home after a long day and saw this. It does give me pause, and I will respond, but it has to wait a while, as I have no time to do so at the moment. But for some to reach out in this way both requires a properly though-out reply, and it also means that you care.

And, well, I have to assess things. I promise to reply to this.

[Woody]

Let's say both parties are correct and call it a day shall we. It's a Canadian response.

[Sandy Fry]

As I said in my previous post. There is no rule against buying a pen and selling it on for a huge, healthy profit. However, as I consider people here to be my " friends " I would never try to gouge that huge profit from them. Selling the pen on that big auction site would have been the way to go to try to get a huge profit.

@Chris...Unfortunately, I think you may have ruined your reputation by trying to gouge your " friends " here in the community. Many people will think twice about buying anything from you here. Is it fair? Probably not. But, was it fair to try and gouge your "friends " here to make a huge profit?

Again, no rule against you making a massive profit. I just don't think this was the place to do it.

I hope that this was just an oversight on your part and we can all get back to normal.

P.S. Wanna buy a Krone Edgar Rice Burroughs Tarzan LE? Retails at $6500 but I got it for $800...yours for $4500

David

Addition....even made myself chuckle at that one!

[Crazyorange]

Several months ago I saw a post for pelikan Athens at $700 - which was way beyond my budget.

I've noticed the seller has posted the ad several times which tells me - it's over priced.

When I saw Chris's ad - I knew the price was top tier and probably won't sell (at least on the forum). So I skipped over it.

It would have been nice if Chris had said ....Hey folks xyz is for sale at the FPH. I would have bought the pen for use and enjoyment. I've always thought fountain pen people were helpful in guiding members to deals and special sales. That's one of the best parts belonging to the "collective". Others helping you build your collection.

[pajaro]

I found this thread amusing. Can you imagine finding a thread like this on FPN? The PC Gestapo would have you thrown into outer darkness with bell, book and candle faster than you could say "chit, man." Even more ironic because of their using the corruption of their for sale columns for revenue extraction from diamond sellers who flood the ads with their own umpteen ads, each for one pen, pushing others off the front page.

[KBeezie]

For something like a Pen, you can ask whatever price you want. Just doesn't mean you're going to get what you asked for.

[prime.lens]

Is there some recommended markup that is acceptable? Or is all markup frowned upon and everyone on the forum only sells pens for the price they paid or less?

[bluesea]

Is there some recommended markup that is acceptable? Or is all markup frowned upon and everyone on the forum only sells pens for the price they paid or less?


It depends on your interpretation of this community, your part in it, and the ethics that come out of that. For my part I do not come to enthusiast discussion fora whether for pens, audio, or bicycles and sell at a profit. I'm not a collector, nor do I buy or sell as a collector. Anything that comes into my hands, is already devalued.

[SeminarianMike]

I really wish I had the money to buy this cause I love the pen I would pay extra money for the piece of mind that I getting a good pen and! It would end this back and forth stuff! God bless you all!

[heraclitus682]

Let's not forget that it is one of the best looking pens that Pelikan has produced in a while, in my opinion.

[Lady Onogaro]

I really wish I had the money to buy this cause I love the pen I would pay extra money for the piece of mind that I getting a good pen and! It would end this back and forth stuff! God bless you all!

From what Jon is saying, it wouldn't have cost you much more than your Montblancs if you had seen it and bought it from Fountain Pen Hospital, so if you want one, you might look there in the "Back Room" page or the Super Specials page every now and then.

[heraclitus682]

There's a really nice Chicago at FPH for $350. Tempting.

[SeminarianMike]

I really wish I had the money to buy this cause I love the pen I would pay extra money for the piece of mind that I getting a good pen and! It would end this back and forth stuff! God bless you all!

From what Jon is saying, it wouldn't have cost you much more than your Montblancs if you had seen it and bought it from Fountain Pen Hospital, so if you want one, you might look there in the "Back Room" page or the Super Specials page every now and then.

When I have some $$$ I will, my montblancs were gifts or really good deals! Hehe thank you for your input

[Jholden]

That Chicago pen is a great buy. I'm getting ready to list one for $385.00

[fountainpenkid]

Is there some recommended markup that is acceptable? Or is all markup frowned upon and everyone on the forum only sells pens for the price they paid or less?

In my opinion, no markup is acceptable unless modifications of value were made. As others have said, what defines a non-commercial community is trust between its members. This trust is most effectively developed when a moral economy of sharing is built, which is exactly what happens in my view when you sell a pen for what you bought it for. I see profit-making as breaking the bond of trust because it introduces financial gain, which is inherently against the ethic of a 'shared economy.'

[prime.lens]

In my opinion, no markup is acceptable unless modifications of value were made. As others have said, what defines a non-commercial community is trust between its members. This trust is most effectively developed when a moral economy of sharing is built, which is exactly what happens in my view when you sell a pen for what you bought it for. I see profit-making as breaking the bond of trust because it introduces financial gain, which is inherently against the ethic of a 'shared economy.'

So why not put that in the rules -- or at least state it explicitly as part of an honor code, instead of leaving it up to the interpretation of individuals?

I see many listings where the asking price seems on the high side and it's likely that the seller is asking more then s/he paid for the item. I see no problem with that since many sellers here, even if they are selling for a profit, are more trustworthy and will communicate and answer questions better than taking a chance on eBay.

But if indeed this is some sort of unwritten expectation that only exists as a select group's interpretation of what "community" should be then I don't think they should be imposing it on others. Other perfectly honest and reliable sellers might have different expectations and still be great members of the community.

[ChrisC]

I don't think that profits damage a community. If one doesn't want to partake in the profit-making aspect of it, they're free to not conduct business at a profit. If you sell something at a profit and the buyer is content at the price paid, what problem has been caused?

That said, if either the community democratically (not just a few deciding) decided to ban markups on the "For Sale" section, or if the forum owner made that decision, I would faithfully and honestly abide by it, despite the near-impossibility of enforcement. Then if that happened, I'd hope that there could be a new "eBay Listing" sub forum where forum members could find listings by trustworthy members of FPGeeks community.

I think that many less pens would be listed if a rule against markups was instituted (provided that ppl complied ). I think this would be a great loss. Many of us are willing to pay more for pens that we are looking for, especially the rare ones.

[Inxoy]

This is a dangerous, dangerous slope to start dictating how everyone should conduct their business. There is a name for what you're trying to do.

[fountainpenkid]

I don't think that profits damage a community. If one doesn't want to partake in the profit-making aspect of it, they're free to not conduct business at a profit. If you sell something at a profit and the buyer is content at the price paid, what problem has been caused?

That said, if either the community democratically (not just a few deciding) decided to ban markups on the "For Sale" section, or if the forum owner made that decision, I would faithfully and honestly abide by it, despite the near-impossibility of enforcement. Then if that happened, I'd hope that there could be a new "eBay Listing" sub forum where forum members could find listings by trustworthy members of FPGeeks community.

I think that many less pens would be listed if a rule against markups was instituted (provided that ppl complied ). I think this would be a great loss. Many of us are willing to pay more for pens that we are looking for, especially the rare ones.


This is a dangerous, dangerous slope to start dictating how everyone should conduct their business. There is a name for what you're trying to do.
To be clear, I am not in any way suggesting there be a rule or even an official suggestion about profit-making--such a thing would be, as you say, detrimental to the whole community and would conflict with the libertarian nature of this and many other fora: verbally enforcing tacit culture is totalitarian. I would like to distinguish what I wrote before as a theoretical opinion, not a command--I think the difference is crucial.

[Sandy Fry]

I will make one last point in this discussion and then hope it all ends soon.

The point that most folks appear to be missing is that we all buy pens and probably from the same places. So, when you find a good deal there is a very good chance that a great number of people here also saw that deal. Therefore it would seem a little naive to come here and then try to sell it at a massive profit and not expect some backlash.

No-one is saying that the OP isn't entitled to sell his pen for a profit but, as I said above, it is a little naive to come here to do it when most folks know the original price paid. I think that what might be irking some people is the fact that the OP bought the pen with ( seemingly ) no intention of keeping it but trying to make a huge profit ( again, no rule against that ) when someone who really wanted the pen missed out on getting it at the discounted price.

I don't think much would have been said if the OP had offered a " fair " price here in the community and, he could still have made a healthy profit, someone who truly wanted the pen would still have gotten a bargain. A win-win situation IMHO.

I think this discussion will just keep going round in circles as there are folks on both side of the fence. Let's agree to disagree and leave it at that.

@OP...good luck in selling your pen here. Good looking pen ( and it was still available at FPH when I saw it ) but not a Pelikan fan so passed on it. You got a remarkably good deal and I think you were being a wee bit greedy with your mark-up. Pass your good fortune on to someone who really wants the pen.
I have looked at a few of the pens you had on the For Sale section but you lost my trust and respect and I would never considering buying a pen from you at this time.

I am done with this post now.

Bliadhna mhath ur

David

[whichwatch]

I like to buy pre-owned pens on the various sales boards. I also sometimes end up selling some - usually to help fund something else I see that I would like to try.

Sometimes I end up selling for less than I paid for a certain pen. I wonder if the people suggesting that "in the name of community" people should sell pens only for what they paid would be willing to make up the losses I sometimes take. Hey, it's all for the good of the community, right? Or do they believe markets are strictly a one way street where it's acceptable to lose, but not acceptable to sometimes win?

[dduran]

I don't think anyone here is expecting "everyone" to sell at a loss..
Also don't think anyone would have objected if the pen was listed with a reasonable mark-up, right?

To reiterate David's (Sandy Fry) point, people here are informed and when they see something like this, they can't stop but protect the other members.. so they're not stopping the OP per se but are just stepping up for the others..

[prime.lens]

I don't think anyone here is expecting "everyone" to sell at a loss..
Also don't think anyone would have objected if the pen was listed with a reasonable mark-up, right?

To reiterate David's (Sandy Fry) point, people here are informed and when they see something like this, they can't stop but protect the other members.. so they're not stopping the OP per se but are just stepping up for the others..

I agree with that. If the posts against OP had just mentioned that this pen is available at FPH for $450 or whatever then potential buyers would know and have enough information to decide for themselves. And that would be that.

What irks me a little bit is that some of the condemnation is a bit strong: from a moralistic tone about community spirit to "I never make a profit from the community." Well maybe you don't, but what if someone else does not have that luxury and needs the money to stay in the hobby? OP's markup is a bit steep and an informed buyer would likely not buy the pen from him, but it is my understanding that he is selling the pen at roughly market value.

Are we really saying that if someone finds a MB149 for $20 at a garage sale, they can't sell it at its market price on the forum? If this is the case (and for some posters, this seems to be the reasoning) then I am fine with it but it needs to be enshrined in the rules, rather than be subject to individual expectations of "community." If anything OP was naive to try to flip it so early and to post the original documentation. Others will just hold on to it for a while and sell it without the documentation later. So, OP is basically being taken to the cleaners for being too forthcoming about his profit making.

When I was in grad school, I would buy vintage cameras if I found them at a good price. I'd use them for a while, clean them up and sell them, often at a moderate profit. It was the only way I could explore the number of cameras that I did while being a grad student. Now I don't need to do that for pens, but who am I to judge someone else's situation?

[swisspens]

I never would have imagined such passionate discussions here on FPN :-)

Personally, I'm fine paying the right price for the right product. And when sme sells something with a good profit and in all honesty, I'm just happy for this guy, and congratulate him.

I forgot to say that I am a fountain pen seller from Switzerland, and sold last month an Athens for 850$ to a good client of mine. He's over the moon with it. Call me greedy?

[penwash]

I never would have imagined such passionate discussions here on FPN :-)

Personally, I'm fine paying the right price for the right product. And when sme sells something with a good profit and in all honesty, I'm just happy for this guy, and congratulate him.

I forgot to say that I am a fountain pen seller from Switzerland, and sold last month an Athens for 850$ to a good client of mine. He's over the moon with it. Call me greedy?

No, I won't call you greedy and I'm happy for you and your client.
But you may start another "passionate discussion" with the end of your first sentence as I quote above :)

[Jon Szanto]

The precise reason we can have discussions like this is the substitution of the letter G for the letter N.

[swisspens]

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: well, that's just one letter, does it that much matter?
:bolt:
Ok, fair enough :-)

[Jon Szanto]

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: well, that's just one letter, does it that much matter?
:bolt:
Ok, fair enough :-)

Be careful, or I'll start thinking about making the decision on whether to call you greedy or not... ;)

[penwash]

The precise reason we can have discussions like this is the substitution of the letter G for the letter N.

One day, I wouldn't mind the reader's digest version of how FPN got its reputation, the good and the bad.

[Jon Szanto]

One day, I wouldn't mind the reader's digest version of how FPN got its reputation, the good and the bad.


http://49.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lasmpzzeeO1qe0eclo1_r2_500.gif

[conib]

A couple of posters compared FPGeeks with other special-interest forums, and I'd like to add a comment regarding how free ads generally work in the fiber-related forums I've participated in.

One of the rules that's been worked out pretty ubiquitously in fiber forums is that the FREE ads on those forums can only be posted by end-users selling their personal stuff -- no free ad posts by for-profit dealers or resellers are allowed, and there are no exceptions.

Generally speaking, the idea is that if you're making a profit, then you shouldn't be mooching off those people who are making positive contributions of their money and/or time to the forum.

For my part, if I've observed that someone appears to be reselling pens or parts for profit, AND they're taking advantage of FPGeeks's FREE ads to hawk their wares, then I'm not going to be buying from them.

-- Constance

[bluesea]

The precise reason we can have discussions like this is the substitution of the letter G for the letter N.

One day, I wouldn't mind the reader's digest version of how FPN got its reputation, the good and the bad.


Not sure about what you've mentioned above, but when I saw FPN listed their classified section at the top of the page above discussions, I eventually saw that was their main focus and decided not to post there.





A couple of posters compared FPGeeks with other special-interest forums, and I'd like to add a comment regarding how free ads generally work in the fiber-related forums I've participated in.

One of the rules that's been worked out pretty ubiquitously in fiber forums is that the FREE ads on those forums can only be posted by end-users selling their personal stuff -- no free ad posts by for-profit dealers or resellers are allowed, and there are no exceptions.

Generally speaking, the idea is that if you're making a profit, then you shouldn't be mooching off those people who are making positive contributions of their money and/or time to the forum.

For my part, if I've observed that someone appears to be reselling pens or parts for profit, AND they're taking advantage of FPGeeks's FREE ads to hawk their wares, then I'm not going to be buying from them.

-- Constance


They call them 'flippers"-- the people who buy stuff at good to reasonable prices and resell for profit. That's what god created eBay and FPN for.


When I first joined fpgeeks, it surprised the hell out of me when I couldn't find the rules pertaining to the classified section. What, no minimum number of posts, no minimum time period before being allowed the *privilege* to participate in Classified? No rules and sanctions to minimize and discourage flipping?

These type of rules evolved to preserve community where most members price their items reasonably, in part to support and nurture that community. Rules became necessary because the success of the classified sections in such discussion boards began to attract flippers.

Someone mentioned maybe people *have to* flip for a profit in order to afford to take part in the hobby. I disagree. I believe in playing within ones own means, and actually you only need one pen to take part.

[penwash]

One day, I wouldn't mind the reader's digest version of how FPN got its reputation, the good and the bad.


http://49.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lasmpzzeeO1qe0eclo1_r2_500.gif

Is that a...
1. You won't believe it if I tell you anyway

OR

2. Don't even go there...

I love Mr. Bronson (that is him, right?)

[Jon Szanto]

Is that a...
1. You won't believe it if I tell you anyway

OR

2. Don't even go there...

I love Mr. Bronson (that is him, right?)

Number two. And yes it is, and I do, too. One of the reasons for #2 is that the original question left off the third part of the triumvirate: The Ugly.

[Chrissy]

Charles Bronson the great. :hail:

[Lady Onogaro]

Charles Bronson the great. :hail:

I especially enjoy Once Upon a Time in the West, Breakheart Pass, From Noon Till Three, and Red Sun (with Toshiro Mifune).

[pajaro]

I am not sure why there is so much excitement about this. This is sort of analogous to a scalper upping the price of tickets. While it's not anything I would do, there seems to be such a lack of consideration for others rampant in the world today that this should hardly be surprising. Some people do care about others, but there are many who will do whatever they can get away with. The Pelikan Cities series pens are passing into the realm of real collectibles that are not seen for sale commonly as they used to be. So, a store like FPH selling them at less than market value and a sagacious buyer grabbing it and upping or scalping the asking price, is it surprising?

I will tell you what I think about collectors generally. I normally keep this to myself, but I have found collectors to pull off every cheat and scam to get more money for their collections that I got pretty disgusted and stopped collecting coins and nearly stopped collecting Spanish stamps. I got carried away and collected Parker 51s because they were cheap and available in the 70s and 80s. I have had collectors steal valuable stamps from my collection, steal all the dimes out of a book and leave slugs, and look at stamps I had in a stock book, mendaciously argue that the stamps had defects and offer a lowball, near nothing price. To me "collector" is often mysteriously in my eyes changed to "turd." When I have tried to sell pens on FPN you wouldn't believe the lowball offers I got for pens. So, I didn't offer many there. Ebay has been a more honest marketplace for me as seller and buyer. Here it's all free, so here is where you will see this kind of flip. Really it's not illegal, and it is more straightforward than some ploys I have been subjected to, and it costs the seller little more than his good name for his foolishness in disclosing the provenance of the pen. Frankly, though, I find that the only pens in this series that are at all attractive are the Place de la Concorde and the Madrid. I only looked at this ad because I wanted to see how much the seller was seeking to profit from the sale.