Do you ever...

[Sandy Fry]

Hey folks,

I posted this same topic over on FPN but wanted to post it here too so that I could catch the thoughts of a wider audience.

I was just wondering. Do any of you ever feel guilty after making a major pen purchase ( let's say $300+ ) when there are people out there who are homeless, starving or unemployed?

Most of my pens are sub $100 but I have a few " high end " limited editions that are $3000+ and sometimes I feel that the money I spent could have been used for something less of a luxury. I work hard. I am single. I don't drink or smoke. Should I feel guilty for buying something that most folks would consider an obscene amount for a pen?



Interested in your thoughts on this and whether anyone else has similar feelings.



Thanks



David

[inklord]

Indeed. Thank you for breaching this topic - it applies to any and all of our luxury purchases, of course. And in the end, a pen is a pen. This is also what let me abandon the luxury pen caterers and go for pens from manufacturers focusing on function and simple aesthetics at a modest price. Flaunting pocket jewelry in view of the fact that people are suffering from want of the most basic needs seems ludicrous at best, especially since the enormous amounts of money tied up in these status products do usually not flow back to the real working class.
Even when buying a modest pen (or any other non-essential) from a manufacturer with good corporate ethics, I often question myself if I'd not rather put that money somewhere to benefit others more directly.
David, again: thanks for raising this issue - it is so easy (and I speak for myself here) to get stuck in a mode of greed, lured by the beauty of a desired object, and forget the ugliness of the world that only we as individuals have the power to better.
One thing that helps me feel a bit better is that I sometimes find a good and well made pen in my hoard that I happen to not use any more: it usually makes a welcome gift, especially to young people (students) who are not in the financial position to waste money on pens. I also try to limit myself to a total of 20 - 25 pens.

[Miss Fountain Pen]

Maybe I should feel guilty. But on the other hand, even after accounting for international shipping, a $500 pen has a much lower carbon footprint etc. than, oh, almost any more "reasonable" $500 purchase that I could make. (I try to limit electronics. I need a computer for my work, but I try to squeeze as many years out of it as I can. I don't have a TV. I don't drive. But pens? They're pretty resource-light.) And my purchase supports artisans and small businesses (all my $300+ pens are hand-made at least in part), plus I pay VAT and customs on my purchases, and that (I would hope...) goes to help the needy. So I don't feel terribly guilty.

[jar]

No.

[bluesea]

Guilt? On the contrary, I buy this stuff to escape reality, not to indulge in it.

[Paddler]

I have never paid more than $10 for a pen (and I have lots of good ones).

That out of the way, I remember that money is the relationship between effort and stuff. You can't waste money unless you burn it or keep it in The First National Mattress. Spending money puts YOUR EFFORT into SOMETHING YOU LIKE whether that be a pen or a wad of cash in a Salvation Army kettle. From there, it moves on to someone else who makes the effort. Whether someone else wants to make that effort or whether they can or can't is a completely different issue.

[penwash]

I'll tell you how guilty I feel when I purchase my first "expensive" pen :)

Joking aside, I believe that the guilt in seeing hardships and poverty (only two of a bunch other ills this fallen world is plagued with) is natural and needs to be thought over continuously.

Feeling guilty for purchasing a luxury item is easier to detect because its a singular event that stands out in contrast.
On the other hand, some people spend the same amount of money on Starbucks coffee, cigar, cigarettes, video games, phone apps, dining out. Should they not feel the same guilt also?

The real question is: What occupies your mind mostly? and what you do about those thoughts?

[distracted_mom]

I'll tell you how guilty I feel when I purchase my first "expensive" pen :)

Joking aside, I believe that the guilt in seeing hardships and poverty (only two of a bunch other ills this fallen world is plagued with) is natural and needs to be thought over continuously.

Feeling guilty for purchasing a luxury item is easier to detect because its a singular event that stands out in contrast.
On the other hand, some people spend the same amount of money on Starbucks coffee, cigar, cigarettes, video games, phone apps, dining out. Should they not feel the same guilt also?

The real question is: What occupies your mind mostly? and what you do about those thoughts?

I do think that people are going to spend money on the things that they want to spend money on. It is easy to judge what others choose to buy. Yes, I feel guilty sometimes, although the most I've spent on a pen is $175. Cameras and lenses, on the other hand, are a different story.

No matter what, there are going to be people who have more and people who have less than you do. Sure, you could choose to spend all of our extra money on charitable giving, or spend it all on yourself. I think that most of us find a happy medium to where we are helping others, but not so much that we don't enjoy our lives.

[Kaputnik]

No, I don't feel any guilt of the kind described.

I haven't yet reached $200 for a single pen. After paying over $100 for the fourth or fifth time, and looking at my pen expense spreadsheet for the total spent on "fountain pen stuff", I may have felt foolish once or twice. But I got over it.

As to whether I do enough to help other people, known or unknown to myself, this is not the forum I would choose for self examination or confession. But some degree of self indulgence is compatible with concern for others.

[zygote]

No, I don't. I factor both donations and hobbies into my budget and the amounts are independent of each other. Granted I have to save to afford a $300 pen, but I worked, hard, for the money to save for it and I don't see how my purchasing it effects anything other than my savings account.

[stub]

I was just wondering. Do any of you ever feel guilty after making a major pen purchase ( let's say $300+ ) when there are people out there who are homeless, starving or unemployed?


Yes. Though I personally have never broken the $300 barrier, I have spent close to that a couple times, but yes, to be totally honest.




Should I feel guilty for buying something that most folks would consider an obscene amount for a pen?


No. I know that seems contradictory but there you go.

[Sandy Fry]

Thanks for the input folks.

It's not like I don't donate to worthwhile causes. I often give cash to the homeless folks who hang around the gas station where I usually fill up, drop some cash in the Salvation Army kettle or anonymously pay for someone's meal at a restaurant. However, I still feel that sometimes I could do a little more.
I agree, there are always going to be folks who have more than me and folks who will have less than me but I still feel a little guilty when I go out to eat, sign the check with my $2000 pen and then pass a homeless guy on my way to my car. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that most " regular/normal " folks that I know think it is crazy for me spend more than a couple of dollars on a pen.
Again, thanks for the input. I really appreciate it.

David

[stub]

I posted this same topic over on FPN.


That should go swimmingly.



I don't drink or smoke.


Never to later to start.

[Neo]

David,

You are a good hearted person who thinks about the larger world around you. The fact that you even question how else pen funds could be used is a sure sign of this. That said we all work hard for our money and should be allowed to enjoy ourselves...

[Lady Onogaro]

I haven't spent that kind of money on a pen, but yes, I have often felt that the money would be better spent on other causes. In fact, I would say that this has made me more conscious of the need to be a regular contributor to various outreach missions than I might otherwise be. I am affiliated with an Episcopalian church that has as its mission charitable giving (and doing). So there is always an activity going on to fulfill Christ's teachings in Matthew 25 (visiting those in prison, clothing the poor, visiting the sick, etc.).

[inklord]

In many of the above posts, there shines a sense of balance through the potential gloom these questions might stir up: the important point seems to be that we don't forget our obligations to the human community over our desires for beautiful objects. As a Daoist, I am strongly cautioned against ownership of precious items by my religion, as hoarding rare and precious things invokes jealousy and may lead others astray: "if you do not value rare treasures, you will stop others from stealing/if people do not see desirables, they will not be agitated" (Lao Tse, the daodejing, chapter 3). As usual, there is a balance, and the whole situation becomes only precarious when our desires would prevent us from doing good in equal measure. It is obvious that many of the above posting members strive to find that balance. Also, it should be noted, that purchasing an artisan's work for an adequate price keeps valuable arts and skills a part of our culture, and provides such artisans with a livelihood.

[penwash]

Thanks for the input folks.

It's not like I don't donate to worthwhile causes. I often give cash to the homeless folks who hang around the gas station where I usually fill up, drop some cash in the Salvation Army kettle or anonymously pay for someone's meal at a restaurant. However, I still feel that sometimes I could do a little more.
I agree, there are always going to be folks who have more than me and folks who will have less than me but I still feel a little guilty when I go out to eat, sign the check with my $2000 pen and then pass a homeless guy on my way to my car. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that most " regular/normal " folks that I know think it is crazy for me spend more than a couple of dollars on a pen.
Again, thanks for the input. I really appreciate it.

David

David,

The fact is, the $2000 pen has nothing to do with the homeless guy you just walk past by.
You didn't purchase the pen with the intention to rob the guy from anything. It was just a purchase that you decided to do because you think that the pen is worth that much.

Now, let's say the thought of the homeless guy moved your heart to do some research about what is going on in the community to combat homelessness, which then you participate in and find out that you enjoy helping others.

When that happen, you still have your $2000 pen, but now you know that in addition to owning a $2000 pen, you also give your time to help others in need. The portion of your mind that is dedicated towards yourself is diminishing, and the part that thinks of others is increasing. That in the long run will give you the balance (and peace of mind) that you're seeking now.

So it comes down to again, what is in your mind and what you decided to do about it.

[Miss Fountain Pen]

I agree, there are always going to be folks who have more than me and folks who will have less than me but I still feel a little guilty when I go out to eat, sign the check with my $2000 pen and then pass a homeless guy on my way to my car.

Here's the thing. You could have given that $2000 to the homeless guy or to a charity. Was this something you ever seriously considered? If you did, then I can see why you might feel bad about having decided to spend the cash on a luxury item instead. But if you were going to spend the money on yourself anyway, I really don't see why the fact that you spent it on a pen would be particularly problematic. So, if you had spent that money on eating out in fancy restaurants, or if you had spent it on renovating your kitchen, or if you had spent it on a vacation, would that somehow have been better (in a moral sense) than spending it on a pen? I don't see how.

[Hawk]

I certainly don't feel bad to purchase and enjoy an expensive non-necessity. On the other hand, I donate to chharity and it makes me feel good also. In my mind, I strike a balance that I can live with. When I was young, we didn't have much, but was enough. My parents immigrated from Sweden as teenagers, didn't know anyone, made good in life and taught me values that I retain. They pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps, without charity.

[TAYLORPUPPY]

NO!

[Bold2013]

Spending money is good for the economy as a whole so if you want to help people buy more pens to create more jobs.

[Sandy Fry]

I agree, there are always going to be folks who have more than me and folks who will have less than me but I still feel a little guilty when I go out to eat, sign the check with my $2000 pen and then pass a homeless guy on my way to my car.

Here's the thing. You could have given that $2000 to the homeless guy or to a charity. Was this something you ever seriously considered? If you did, then I can see why you might feel bad about having decided to spend the cash on a luxury item instead. But if you were going to spend the money on yourself anyway, I really don't see why the fact that you spent it on a pen would be particularly problematic. So, if you had spent that money on eating out in fancy restaurants, or if you had spent it on renovating your kitchen, or if you had spent it on a vacation, would that somehow have been better (in a moral sense) than spending it on a pen? I don't see how.

I do see your point. But, MOST people would say that spending money upgrading your kitchen is a good idea and worth the money. I don't eat at fancy restaurants and rarely take vacation which is why I can afford to spend $2000+ on a pen if I want to.
Other than pen people, MOST folks will think you are nuts for spending anything more than a few bucks for a pen. My colleague at work asked to use my " fancy " pen to sign in..it was a $10 Parker Jotter ballpoint!

I know that there are things, that we in the developed world take for granted, that under-developed countries consider a luxury. To some of those poorer countries a simple bottle of water is a luxury and that is just a small example of why I feel a little guilty spending, to what most folks would say is, an obscene amount of money on a pen.

I hope that explains my feelings a little better.

Again, thanks for all the input. I honestly didn't think my post would generate this much interest.

David

[Miss Fountain Pen]

David (Sandy Fry), here's how I look at it. Poor people can afford only the basics (if they're lucky). Rich people can afford luxuries in more or less every aspect of life. But if you're somewhere in the middle, you get a choice: stick to middle-class staples in more or less every aspect of your life, or live below your means in some respects so that you could live above your means in others (while still breaking even overall). I choose to live well below my means in most aspects of my life, either because I simply don't want/need some of the middle class staples, or because their environmental impact is far too high for my liking. But because I save so much money that way, I get to indulge in our expensive but otherwise harmless hobby. :) Some people may think I'm nuts, but that's not a moral argument.

[TAYLORPUPPY]

Just an observation, Sandy Fry. You supposedly spent a minimum of 8 thousand dollars on 3 pens and you're asking if others feel guilty to spend 300 dollars. I guess as long as you feel a little guilty and you've cleared your conscience by thinking to your self that the money could have been put to better use, YOURE GOOD. What I have learned from you, is, if I see a frail animal, crying in pain, chained to a tree in the snow, and I'm on my way to spend 8 grand on pens, It is entirely okay just so long as I feel A LITTLE GUILTY about not helping that suffering little animal.

[kaisnowbird]

The way I see it, it's a personal choice.

I consider spending $1000s on pen or pens, which can be heirloom pieces and contribute to the continuity of tradition and culture of writing and arts/crafts, to be far more meaningful than spending $1000s on cigarettes, upgrading gadgets, and the latest games, etc.

I rarely donate to charities and much prefer to volunteer. This way I control where my contribution goes.

I rarely give money to the homeless. Where I live, many of the homeless would take the money (and welfare payments they receive fortnightly from the tax we pay) to buy alcohol, even drugs.

I make my choices and am entirely at peace with the reasons behind my choices. 100% guilt-free. YMMV.

[Sandy Fry]

Just an observation, Sandy Fry. You supposedly spent a minimum of 8 thousand dollars on 3 pens and you're asking if others feel guilty to spend 300 dollars. I guess as long as you feel a little guilty and you've cleared your conscience by thinking to your self that the money could have been put to better use, YOURE GOOD. What I have learned from you, is, if I see a frail animal, crying in pain, chained to a tree in the snow, and I'm on my way to spend 8 grand on pens, It is entirely okay just so long as I feel A LITTLE GUILTY about not helping that suffering little animal.

I think you missed the point completely. At no point did I say I had a clear conscience. I chose $300 simply because that appears to be a lot of money for a pen to a good deal of the members here from the posts I have read. You don't think spending $300+ on a pen is a little obscene to folks who are not into pens?
You know absolutely nothing about me other than I like pens and if you seriously think that I would walk past a suffering animal without helping it, you are sadly mistaken.
As to me spending $8000 dollars on pens. I gave up days off to work ( 6 days a week, 12 hours a day ) for the money to buy those pens. I gave up Christmas day and most other holidays so that my colleagues could be home with their families on those days. I donate money to a children's hospital each month...do you? I paid over $2000 in vet fees for my friends dog because she couldn't afford it. I donated $500 to the friend of a friend ( whom I never met ) so she could buy a human hair wig after going bald from chemotherapy. I send money to my ex wife in Scotland every month because I earn way more than she does ( no I do not have to and no there is no court order for alimony. I do it because I CHOOSE to. ) and no, we don't really get along very well.
How dare you judge me without knowing a damn thing about me and for me feeling a little guilty for spending money on a luxury item.

David

[TSherbs]

Let's

be

kind.

Sandy Fry, I share many of your sentiments. My way of looking at it is that "guilt" in this case is compassion with self-blame. The compassion, of course, is a wonderful emotion, and I consider it the face of God, both metaphorically and literally (and the Truth beyond words). "Self blame" is often injurious and inaccurate, and must be treated with some distance (and compassion). Water the compassion, grow the love. Hold the self-blame tenderly but avoid being hooked on it and feeding it. We all are finding our way toward our own ethic of wage-earning and spending. Good luck on your journey.

[sweetnightingale]

David,

The way I look at it is, it's a personal choice. You work hard for your money, so it's your right to spend it however you want and it's nobody's business what you buy or how much it is unless, of course, you disclose that information.

Growing up, we didn't have much, so I rarely got something "expensive." It's nice to now be in a position where I can have a luxury item like a beautiful fountain pen without worrying about where the next dime is coming from.

That said, both my husband (Hawk) and I volunteer (we are very active with the Lions Club) and we give to charity (Lions Club related things). Finding that balance helps us feel okay about feeding the pen madness. :) Sure, we're spending money on ourselves, but we feel we balance it out. Does that make sense?

I will say, we've gotten some strange looks when the topic of fountain pens comes up and we reveal what we paid for a particular pen. You're certainly right about non pen people feelings that what we spend on pens is an obscene amount of money.

[TAYLORPUPPY]

Sandy, I didn't judge you, you judged yourself, when you repeatedly mentioned that you felt guilty. I'm just impressed that you were able to set all that guilt aside and go ahead and make all those high dollar purchases. This must be something that has weighed heavily on you. After all, you did start this thread. I'm not mad at ya'. I can see that you are a very giving person. You've made that very clear. I'm impressed with all your acts of charity. I'd just like to see those high end, limited edition pens. The fact that you do so much for so many and you still feel guilty about your purchases, says only thing about you.. You're a saintly man. I'd still like to see those awesome pens

[KBeezie]

Hey folks,
Most of my pens are sub $100 but I have a few " high end " limited editions that are $3000+ and sometimes I feel that the money I spent could have been used for something less of a luxury. I work hard. I am single. I don't drink or smoke. Should I feel guilty for buying something that most folks would consider an obscene amount for a pen?


I couldn't hope for anything that's in the $3k range (I mean if I had that much laying around I have far more obligations I'd take care of). Some of my pens retail-wise if bought new would be valued close to a grand but as you know you certainly can't resell those for nearly the same price unless it's some kind of collectible unused.

If I spent that much (ie: $300+) for a pen brand new, I suppose I would probably feel a little guilty but not so much for the reason you do, most of my higher end ones were trades/barters which I slowly worked up to, the bulk of them are sub-100 or hovering around like yourself.

But all of the ones I have now except a Platinum Preppy were obtained second-hand/used.
The main thing I buy new are consumables (paper, ink, maintenance/restoration materials, etc).

The guilt if any is usually for spending a couple dollars outside of my means, when I should have known better.

[inklord]

The way I see it, it's a personal choice.

I consider spending $1000s on pen or pens, which can be heirloom pieces and contribute to the continuity of tradition and culture of writing and arts/crafts, to be far more meaningful than spending $1000s on cigarettes, upgrading gadgets, and the latest games, etc.

Great point that I omitted in my earlier post: I'd probably exclude objects of art created by craftspeople by hand, thus maintaining unique trades and skills as a part of the human cultural heritage, from my derogatory term 'pocket jewelry' that I used there... after all that money flows right into the pockets of the artisan, and seems well earned, to be sure.