Brian Goulet and his recent Q&A "under cutting"

[SeminarianMike]

On Brian's recent Q&A he addressed a question on under cutting. This really has me worked up and feeling rather guilty. I would like to here all your opinions. This is such a fine community full of great people who I care about dearly! The short time I've been here I have received so much kindness. I can't even begin to tell you some of the amazing things people here have done for me!
Let me expound on why I feel guilty. Recently I bough a pilot 92 demonstrator. I did not have the money to buy it from most places so I went to Amazon. I found many Japanese sellers posting around 100 bucks, couldn't afford that so I searched deeper into Amazon , which can get tricky. After 10 mins into the pits of Amazon I see 1 fine nib blue demo 92 left in stock directly from Amazon for 78.00 shipped from Amazon prime... I don't know how that is possible buy it is real. This can't be good for pilot. Perfect example of what Brian spoke about today. I was not helping this community by buying that pen at that price.
Further more my post on first impressions of my new m805. I paid 40% less then what that pelikan should cost. I contacted pelikan to confirm Martenodena as a legit authorized retailer, but am lending to the devalue of pelikan brand? Probably... I don't understand how martemodena can sell at those prices and be an authorized dealer but they do. This is a touchy topic and I don't know what response I will get... Have at it!

[Jon Szanto]

I would be happy to make comment, but only after you have supplied a link to this Q&A and I have viewed/read it myself. If I'm going to take everything into account, I want to hear the actual source, not your's - or anyone's - version of it.

[SeminarianMike]

http://youtu.be/LJkyhq3hH_A here you go forward to 26 mins

[bluesea]

This is also happening in road cycling, where UK online shops are able to sell at prices below U.S. wholesale. I'm all for it.

Bought my first fp from Goulet Pens, probably because of their info support for novices. When it comes to paper, I tend to go there first because of their packing. Running through the upgrade-experimentation cycle that I did, would have been too costly at their price points.

One way for retailers to compete is by increasing services offered. For certain purchases I have bought, and will continue to buy from Classic Fountain Pens for the services and reassurance offered by John Mottishaw.

[brunico]

I paid 40% less then what that pelikan should cost. I contacted pelikan to confirm Martenodena as a legit authorized retailer, but am lending to the devalue of pelikan brand?

Why would you think that?

Surely Pelikan is lending to the overinflation of its brand if the way it's setting prices in different markets means that sellers in some countries have to charge 67% more than sellers elsewhere.

And if the value of a brand depends on how expensive their stuff is rather than how good it is, then its value stinks.


I was not helping this community by buying that pen at that price.

No skin off my nose. I understand that you have found the Goulet Pen Company helpful. Personally, I've never got anything of the least value out of any of their blogs or videos, so to me they're no more worthy a part of the community as I experience it than some anonymous Ebay seller flogging Jinhaos for 99p is. Plenty of people don't make any money from pens and yet have contributed helpful photos and reviews, and I've never given them anything other than a simple thanks.


This can't be good for pilot.

Why not? Presumably the sellers pay Pilot for the pens they sell on? If Pilot chooses to force higher prices in the UK than in Japan, it will have to deal with people cutting out Pilot UK and getting pens from somewhere else. I like Pilot, and I've often recommended them, but there was no way I was going to buy a Prera in the UK for £55 - as they once were - when I could get one shipped from Japan for £20. That Preras in the UK are now about £40 probably tells us that Pilot is aware it had set its prices artificially high. The Prera is a fantastic pen, but it's not worth £55. I have no wish to help Pilot UK, either, as they've never been helpful to me when I've asked about the availability of different sizes of Plumix nib. So I don't owe them anything.

I don't think you should feel as though you owe them anything, either. But if you think you should be letting the Goulets profit rather than someone else, you should be buying cheaper pens... :)

[jar]

It's a complex subject and I'm not sure there is any "Right™" answer.

I grew up in an era before the transportation system we see today. Banana boats still docked down at Pratt Street and the stevedores carried the bananas down the ramp to where dockworkers sorted them. (of course all us kids were there to get the tarantulas and snakes that made the voyage). The foods we got were locally grown and depended on the season. When in-season you gorged because it would be 12 months before that item returned.

But cheap transportation, chain stores and demand led to sourcing foods from all over the world and "It's always in-season somewhere". That in turn led to produce designed to ship well and last above the taste.

The family farm and the neighborhood grocery disappeared.

Many folk never even noticed. Many today never experienced neighborhood stores, never tasted fresh ripe produce, never knew the joy and expectations of the season and so cannot miss what they never knew existed.

Cheap ubiquitous transportation and currency convertibility is a fact.

Folk like the Goulets and the folk at Classic Pens and Richard and so many others have provided us with fantastic resources, helped preserve and distribute institutional knowledge and wisdom. That costs. It costs time, energy, money, resources, care, emotion ...

When I go to buy a new pen, even many not all that new pens, I look first to known individuals where the transaction helps both of us; next to those brick and mortar stores and long term fountain pen folk who over time have given so much back to this whole community. If there is no way I can get what I seek from one of those sources then I look at non-US based brick and mortar stores.

But I don't buy simply because "I can get it cheaper over there". I first ask myself if I can just wait a little longer, save up a little more money and buy from one of those sources mentioned above. In almost every case the answer to that question has been "Sure, I can do that."

[SeminarianMike]

I want to be very clear: I am not against good prices or fierce competition against vendors! I'm a capitalist through and through, but I do agree and feel for Brian. I love his philosophy and business model, and this is why he is doing so well. When we visit Rome I am set to meet with martemodena personally. I hope to find out what is behind that company.
I do think this topic could bring some great discussion [emoji5]

[SeminarianMike]

It's a complex subject and I'm not sure there is any "Right[emoji769]" answer.

I grew up in an era before the transportation system we see today. Banana boats still docked down at Pratt Street and the stevedores carried the bananas down the ramp to where dockworkers sorted them. (of course all us kids were there to get the tarantulas and snakes that made the voyage). The foods we got were locally grown and depended on the season. When in-season you gorged because it would be 12 months before that item returned.

But cheap transportation, chain stores and demand led to sourcing foods from all over the world and "It's always in-season somewhere". That in turn led to produce designed to ship well and last above the taste.

The family farm and the neighborhood grocery disappeared.

Many folk never even noticed. Many today never experienced neighborhood stores, never tasted fresh ripe produce, never knew the joy and expectations of the season and so cannot miss what they never knew existed.

Cheap ubiquitous transportation and currency convertibility is a fact.

Folk like the Goulets and the folk at Classic Pens and Richard and so many others have provided us with fantastic resources, helped preserve and distribute institutional knowledge and wisdom. That costs. It costs time, energy, money, resources, care, emotion ...

When I go to buy a new pen, even many not all that new pens, I look first to known individuals where the transaction helps both of us; next to those brick and mortar stores and long term fountain pen folk who over time have given so much back to this whole community. If there is no way I can get what I seek from one of those sources then I look at non-US based brick and mortar stores.

But I don't buy simply because "I can get it cheaper over there". I first ask myself if I can just wait a little longer, save up a little more money and buy from one of those sources mentioned above. In almost every case the answer to that question has been "Sure, I can do that."

Jar you are very wise! I'm not that old but I do remember my neighborhood grocer before it went the way of a new trendy Gourmet Cheese and cracker supply with daily specials of gluten free pasta, and local farmers had seasonal cider and we could go get our own pumpkins fornhalloween in a field... Those were he days [emoji853]

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I think it can rather depend on the scale of the disparity. For those like me who inhabit the lower socioeconomic strata it is simply an economic solution that allows us at least to experience the pens that the rest of normal pen society enjoys. I refuse to be an apologist for this. For what it is worth, I bought my first and only TWSBI from the Goulet Pen Co., and will likely go for another from them in the future. I could buy direct from TWSBI but there is no appreciable saving there and so I am more than willing to put the business Brian's way, such as it is.

[TAYLORPUPPY]

I'll pay Brian's premium retail prices over all other foreign sellers. I don't care how deeply they slash the price. If I don't like his pen, he will let me return it. I'm not likely to have that luck with Bilbo baggins in east egypt. With that said. I don't think Brian did himself any favors with this video. I don't know if he was feeling down, maybe he was hungry and not thinking well. It was especially troubling to hear him say why he can't sell hi end platinum. I would have thought Brian would look for ways TO sell hi end platinum, as opposed to talking about why he cant.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I'll pay Brian's premium retail prices over all other foreign sellers. I don't care how deeply they slash the price. If I don't like his pen, he will let me return it. I'm not likely to have that luck with Bilbo baggins in east egypt. With that said. I don't think Brian did himself any favors with this video. I don't know if he was feeling down, maybe he was hungry and not thinking well. It was especially troubling to hear him say why he can't sell hi end platinum. I would have thought Brian would look for ways TO sell hi end platinum, as opposed to talking about why he cant.

There are highly reputable sellers in Japan that will under-cut the American dealers if you are willing to purchase online. There is nothing shifty about these sellers, and I think you should be careful about implying that ALL non-US retailers are disreputable, as you are with your "Bilbo Baggins in East Egypt" remark.

The upside of dealing with local stores is the level of service. The downside is the elevated cost. The reverse is mostly true for the good online sellers, except that in my opinion the disparity in prices is far more significant than the disparity in services.

[KBeezie]

I think I tend to avoid such conundrum most of the time by buying (or trading) used and/or vintage.

But I been that way with other manners of equipment as well. But when it comes to my consumables, I tend to go for the retailers that helped me the most, especially since the pricing difference there is pretty negligible.

The stuff that seems to have a huge pricing difference tend to be a very select few models.

[bluesea]

Most online sellers in the U.S., Goulet Pens included, provide discounts many local brick and mortar sellers are unable to compete with. Where do you draw the line?

[KBeezie]

Most online sellers in the U.S., Goulet Pens included, provide discounts many local brick and mortar sellers are unable to compete with. Where do you draw the line?

Depends on how much of a discount, most brick and mortar stores tend to sell at MSRP, a lot of the online shops sell less than the manufacture suggested retail price to compete.

But... when you consider that the MSRP (as stated by the manufacture themselves) on a Platinum Century 3776 is 10,000 yen (that's about 85 USD in the current exchange), and the Japanese retailers are selling less than the MSRP (like with many other retailers with their own market), compared to $176 within the US, that's going to be a "lolwut?" moment for some, similar scenario with some Pilot models as well.

Better question is, who is to blame for causing an insane bump in the price just by geographic region for a specific brand? It's not like all of them are like that and that's just one of the more extreme examples. (better yet... why are Pelikans priced better brand new in Japan than the rest of the world? almost half that of any place outside of Japan, but it's not a Japanese brand).

[Jon Szanto]

http://youtu.be/LJkyhq3hH_A here you go forward to 26 mins

Thanks, Mike. It's been a really long day, but I've watched most of the part he talks about this. I may have some thoughts in the next day or so, but a fair amount has already been touched on, much of it by my friend Jar. The only thing I'll add at the moment - and I didn't get a real negative impression of Brian as maybe some people did - is that there is at least a small bit of irony here: when I first got into pens about 6 years ago, GPC was really just getting started. As they grew from just a couple of employees to where they are now, there was a fair amount of discussion in the public as to how the online (pen) retailers were cutting into the business of the shrinking brick-and-morter pen/stationery suppliers/stores. By not having a storefront, by not having displays and sales people and rent and all the various expenses of a b&m store, the online sites could offer more product at lower prices.

Which is quite interesting in light of the current discussion.

Well, more later. Time for sleep and then a pen club meeting tomorrow a.m. Things to do, and then the LA Pen Show this week!

[Miss Fountain Pen]

I'm in Europe, so Goulet is not the most natural place for me to order from. I do have a couple of thoughts on this matter, though.

First, it is my understanding that brands dictate pricing to a large extent, and so the same pen may cost far more in one country than in another. There is no particularly good reason for this other than the fact that the brand thinks it can get away with it. The big Japanese pen manufacturers (Pilot, Platinum, Sailor) are the most guilty of this, it seems. They'll literally double the prices on many of their pens (including some of the most popular ones) for the Western market. If we were talking 20% increase or some such, it would be a different matter. But when they double the price, I feel that I am being made a fool of, and no, I'm not going to play along with that. I'll order straight from Japan, thank you very much. Not Goulet's fault, but if enough of us do it, maybe the Japanese brands will get the message.

Second, the most important value-added service for me is the testing and tuning of the pen before shipping. I'm much more likely to pay extra to someone who will check and tune the pen than to someone who's merely a great guy. On that note, may John Mottishaw have a long and prosperous life and business, because I have every intention of buying from him again in the years to come. :)

[nusiax]

There are many different reasons you would buy from various sources. I purchase most of my pen items from my local reseller here in the Netherlands. Love the service and communication. Also nice to try an item before you buy. But I have bought from other sources. I found a beautiful blue enameled waterman similar to a Hemisphere. But I have not seen that pen any place. I was in Japan and bought way too many pens. I bought a Sailor Pro in Osaka in a color only available at that particular shop and it was way cheaper than purchasing one here in the west and I also got the sales tax deducted. I bought a wonderful Platinum3776 with gold maki and after tax refund was around €25. Could never get that here. It does not hurt the brands. There are various reason for price differences. Most has to do with import duties taxes shipping etc.

And I would not be guilty buying a $100 Pelikan for $75. That is 25 percent off great deal but not over the top. Be thankful and enjoy your pen.

I love Goulet Pens. Watch their videos regular and read the blog. But never purchased. As the shipping costs make it the same price as if I buy local so I do.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Having watched the video I am a bit conflicted. The simple fact for me is that I acquired virtually all the information I sought about various fountain pens from hobbyist reviews and not from retail sites/blogs and so on. So I think he is overstating the importance of that aspect of his business.

Furthermore, because I do not live in the US it means that the Goulet Pen Co. is just another online seller, and as such not especially competitive. The service side that Brian Goulet talks about has no impact for me because it would cost me too much money for the back and forth shipping. This is obviously going to be different for those of you who live in the US, and have quicker and cheaper access to after sales services. Heck, even a phone call would cost me an arm and a leg.

Perhaps we are an unusual case here in New Zealand. There are no dedicated B&M pen shops, nor any locally hosted online retailers (as far as I know), so everything is sourced online overseas. At that point all the fancy economic analysis from the video references fly out of the window and it comes down to who is offering the best money deal.

Living here makes this situation simple to understand and to engage, without having to worry about any perceived moral issues.

[SaoDavi]

I too just bought the Pilot 92 this week, from Japan via Amazon. I looked at at Goulet as I often do, but I wasn't going to pay 60%-100% more for the same pen.

I like to support small businesses, and I like to patronize businesses that provide me with pre-sale information and good service and after-sale support. However, I won't pay more than about 20% for that "added value".

I think the problem is twofold. 1) Goulet needs to stop charging full MSRP on his products. Nobody does that anymore and it causes them to be uncompetitive in the market. 2). Pen companies shouldn't have MSRPs that are so wildly inflated over the actual market price. TWSBI sells their pens at a fair price and the cost from Goulet, Amazon and TWSBI direct are all roughly the same. Pilot and others should do the same. This is in no way the customer's fault, and shouldn't be presented as such.

[Haga888]

Pricing matters in virtually every product we purchase in our lives. As a retailer you adjust to the market or guess what, someone else is going to take advantage of the situation. Adjusting might mean lowering prices and having to cut back on the "value-add". If people are willing to forgo that service you're offering for lower prices, well how much do you think your value add is worth?

It's all within reason. If the price difference is 10-15% most people will still go to their favourite retailer for lower cost items. I fail to see the logic in paying almost 50% more for virtually any product all other things being equal.

Their are countless examples of businesses and entire business models going extinct because they can't adjust to their new realities. I don't see any differences here. It isn't right or wrong, it's just reality.

[Pickwick]

This really has me worked up and feeling rather guilty.

I think you cannot solve the problems of the world singlehandedly. Just as you would not go live off the grid in the forest where you grow your own food and live with no electricity or modern conveniences to remove your carbon footprint, you cannot solve the consumerist nature of our society. I don't think you should exclude yourself from the hobby simply due to lack of means. Perhaps one day soon, you will have the means to be able to buy pens from US distributors. Then you can pass on these cheaper pens to some one else cannot afford then pens at that moment. That is just an example.

For me, I am new to the community but at this point, Brian will have all my money. His company has done more for me than any other. I went to the local pen store Dromgooles because everyone here told me that it was the happiest place on earth. I got there and started looking around. For a while no one came to help me and then eventually I noticed an employee was following me around the store and STARING. I tried asking a couple of questions but she gave such curt responses that it was obvious she had no intention of starting a dialogue or assisting me. I went to the pen counter and stood there for a while, looking at pens and waiting for someone to help me. The employee who was following me continued to stare as though I did not belong by the pen counter. Now, you have to understand, I was dressed and composed properly. I did not look like some bum off the street who had come to shoplift. I have a six figure salary, I can afford this shit! I really don't want to open this can of worms but frankly, all the white people in the store were readily being helped and I was the only non-white girl in there and I was being treated like I was about to rob the place or something. So finally I just paid for the stationary I had picked up and left. These people will not have another cent from me.

Brian's people, on the other hand, have always responded to the questions I email them and there aren't many because the videos cover so much of what I want and need to know. I will happily pay full price to them. They deserve it!

[Kaputnik]

I wasn't going to sit through the full 75 minute video (do people really do that?:rolleyes:) but I clicked at around 32 minutes and fortuitously found most of the part that is under discussion here. I understand his point about playing by the rules set by manufacturers for U.S. distributors, and that that's the way he wants to run his business. Fair enough, but in itself, not a reason for me not to look at other options. It's not just overseas sellers, I know of one generally reputable U.S. dealer who sells the Pilot Custom Heritage 92 for $133, with a free shipping option within the U.S. Are they actually doing something shady to undercut Goulet's price of $220? Perhaps, and I'm willing to hear an explanation of why, but I'm not going to assume it. In fact, I bought my own two CH 92s from eBay and Amazon, and paid a little more than $133 for each, including postage, but both sellers seemed to be legitimate, and I got nib and color options not offered by Goulet Pens.

Incidentally, that U.S. dealer sells the Pilot Elite as the Elite 95S (it's a pen that I considered but decided against). BG claims that one is not supposed to sell it as the Elite in the U.S. due to American trademark issues, and that it's only supposed to be sold as the E95S (which is what he carries). I can understand the point he's making without necessarily seeing it as an ethical problem for the buyer or seller.

Value added service? I can understand that for many people, getting their questions answered pre-sale by the seller may be useful, but I don't think I've ever asked Goulet any questions before buying from them. Give them credit anyway for putting up a web site that gives the information I want to know about the products they sell, but other sellers do that too, including some "undercutters". After sale service? I did exchange the Delta pen that I bought from them, and it was a painless process, but when the pen developed further problems a year later, I had to send it to the manufacturer. Goulet's will write with a pen to test it before they send it to you (and presumably if they find they have a dud, send you a different one), but they don't offer the nib tweaking services of some other sellers. My ideal for after sale service is, in any case, for it to be something I don't need, because I've gotten the thing I ordered and it works out of the box.

Many people have found the Goulet's extensive video library useful in learning about fountain pens. I've found a couple of their videos somewhat helpful, but have gotten most of my information from other sources. Is the undoubted effort that they have put into "educating" people about fountain pens a reason for me to buy from them? It might be if I had used it more, and I felt grateful to them for answering my questions, but that is not the case.

It was still interesting to hear him put his case and explain his point of view. Goulet's is a vendor I always consider when I go looking for pen stuff on line, but most of my future purchases of new pen stuff will probably be ink and paper; any additional pens are likely to be vintage. And actually, I don't see buying any more ink for quite a while, and my paper supplies are holding up well.

[TSherbs]

Wow, there is great commentary from several points of view on this thread. And no animus! An achievement. I dolled out many "thanks," to whatever degree that matters.

My opinion agrees with every person whom I thanked. Couldn't say it better, and no need to be redundant.

[TSherbs]

I'll only add this: I have always taken Mr. Goulet's videos primarily to be a form of marketing. He does not review items that he does not sell, and avoids those types of questions. Other persons, selling nothing, post very informative reviews and advice, much more detailed and unconnected to marketing, than the Goulet videos. Goulet videos could disappear, and many of us would not miss them because of the plethora of review information elsewhere. It IS true that Goulet product descriptions are the MOST detailed, which I have appreciated (and I do purchase from them from time to time).

[Sailor Kenshin]

I know this is a bit of threadjacking, but where I live, we still have farmer's markets. And some of them do sell amazing produce you can't touch elsewhere. Others are depressing little pits that have been red-lighted by the Health Department. The idea I am fumbling for could be, 'It depends on the seller.'

[mhosea]

I didn't watch the video, but I've thought a lot about the issue. I guess my reaction is that in a free market, it's all good. If pen companies want to fight the free market with exclusive distributors and MAPs, then they will create a market for direct-to-customer exporters as a consequence if the distributor sets prices too high. Brian is well within his rights to argue for consumers to eschew these other sources, which I can only guess is what he is doing because it is what I would do in his place. Hopefully he will succeed in persuading a sufficient percentage of folks to do exactly that, as it will preserve the power of choice for everyone, whether they are persuaded or not. And yet, I don't personally see it as a moral or ethical issue. If something needs almost everyone to agree in order to "be" in a free market, then only by force can it survive.

[penwash]

First off, I like Brian Goulet.
A few months ago, I watched several of his videos along with Matt's and SBRE's, and I enjoyed those videos.

I purchase my first "haul" of pen related stuff from Goulet, where else?
I think they are the best in terms of putting their image in the minds of people who just got into fountain pens.
And I do believe that's the segment that Goulet Pens should focus on.

Let Goulet Pens be THE source for every FP beginners. And the opportunity will open up, for example he can offer trade-ins for the next step pens like Platinum or CH Pilot (this is one way he could sell Platinum pens).

My point is, as a fellow guy-who-runs-a-business, I can say from experience that if a business does not re-invent itself periodically, it's hard to survive let alone thrive.

[inklord]

I have bought quite a bit, and practically exclusively from the Goulets and from Brian Anderson since I started to purchase pens in the USA a few years back. From the former I'm happy to buy at an extra premium because the Goulets and their team are friendly and helpful, but also because their website provides so many tools for comparison that I'd rather support them and have that service than buying from a cheaper source. From Anderson's I'm buying, again, because Brian and Lisa are wonderful folks, but also because they are operating a 'fairly local' B&M store, and I'd do anything I can contribute as a consumer to keep them going (where else, other than on a pen show, can you just leaf through pages and pages of ink swabs?!?). Needless to say, I avoid Amazon and Massdrop like the plaque... (not a moral issue, just a question of what I want!)

[Lady Onogaro]

This really has me worked up and feeling rather guilty.

I think you cannot solve the problems of the world singlehandedly. Just as you would not go live off the grid in the forest where you grow your own food and live with no electricity or modern conveniences to remove your carbon footprint, you cannot solve the consumerist nature of our society. I don't think you should exclude yourself from the hobby simply due to lack of means. Perhaps one day soon, you will have the means to be able to buy pens from US distributors. Then you can pass on these cheaper pens to some one else cannot afford then pens at that moment. That is just an example.

For me, I am new to the community but at this point, Brian will have all my money. His company has done more for me than any other. I went to the local pen store Dromgooles because everyone here told me that it was the happiest place on earth. I got there and started looking around. For a while no one came to help me and then eventually I noticed an employee was following me around the store and STARING. I tried asking a couple of questions but she gave such curt responses that it was obvious she had no intention of starting a dialogue or assisting me. I went to the pen counter and stood there for a while, looking at pens and waiting for someone to help me. The employee who was following me continued to stare as though I did not belong by the pen counter. Now, you have to understand, I was dressed and composed properly. I did not look like some bum off the street who had come to shoplift. I have a six figure salary, I can afford this shit! I really don't want to open this can of worms but frankly, all the white people in the store were readily being helped and I was the only non-white girl in there and I was being treated like I was about to rob the place or something. So finally I just paid for the stationary I had picked up and left. These people will not have another cent from me.

Brian's people, on the other hand, have always responded to the questions I email them and there aren't many because the videos cover so much of what I want and need to know. I will happily pay full price to them. They deserve it!

I'm so sorry you had a bad experience there. I am sad to say that I can see it happening there, though. It took quite a number of visits before I saw the friendliness that others have experienced and mentioned (and I am white). I'm not sure whether this was because I was a low-dollar buyer or just not a regular (though I have not ever spent less than $100 when I have been there, and one time I spent $200 over two days). The last time I went there, one of the brothers gave me a bottle of ink that I like. But in general, they do tend to ignore me, though they will answer questions if I ask.

I have to say that I do prefer buying online myself, too. But I use a variety of online stores, including Goulet, isellpens, ipenstore, the Andersons, Jetpens. I comparison shop and look at shipping, too.

Even if we don't go to Dromgoole's, it would be great to meet up, Pickwick. There are lots of good places to eat in that area, especially Pasha's, which has the most incredibly bread! :)

[Pickwick]

Even if we don't go to Dromgoole's, it would be great to meet up, Pickwick. There are lots of good places to eat in that area, especially Pasha's, which has the most incredibly bread! :)

I would like that very much! Sorry I did not wait for you but I realized I wouldn't have a free Saturday until March and I really wanted some proper letter writing paper instead of torn sheets from my Moleskine. Like you, I was not surprised to be ignored in the store. I don't shop in that part of town for that reason. I was very upset by the lady following me in the store though. That was uncalled for.

Anyway please message me when you guys are coming this way.

[gbryal]

Paradise Pen Co in Austin is friendly, and if Joe Lowe is there he might show you his stash of vintage Watermans. Unfortunately it's a small shop in a mall with not terribly competitively priced pens. Still, they've been nice to me no matter what I spend or how I'm dressed.

[writingrav]

Even if we don't go to Dromgoole's, it would be great to meet up, Pickwick. There are lots of good places to eat in that area, especially Pasha's, which has the most incredibly bread! :)

I would like that very much! Sorry I did not wait for you but I realized I wouldn't have a free Saturday until March and I really wanted some proper letter writing paper instead of torn sheets from my Moleskine. Like you, I was not surprised to be ignored in the store. I don't shop in that part of town for that reason. I was very upset by the lady following me in the store though. That was uncalled for.

Anyway please message me when you guys are coming this way.
If its any comfort, I'm white and old and the few times I've gone to Fountain Pen Hospital have had the same experience. I guess it was somehow clear I wasn't going to drop a lot of mk money. On the other hand, Art Brown's, also in NY was always very friendly but they went out of business. Go know! as my grandma used to say.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

You know, I wonder sometimes when this kind of subject arises whether people are thinking about it the wrong way around. For instance, the prices of Japanese pens in Japan is the standard price, and the price of Japanese pens in the US is the inflated price. That means that the Japanese sellers are not undercutting at all, and it is wrong for anyone to imply that they are.

Perspective.

[bluesea]

You know, I wonder sometimes when this kind of subject arises whether people are thinking about it the wrong way around. For instance, the prices of Japanese pens in Japan is the standard price, and the price of Japanese pens in the US is the inflated price. That means that the Japanese sellers are not undercutting at all, and it is wrong for anyone to imply that they are.

Perspective.


That would be the cost of doing business in America, according to BG when he poo-pooed the idea of top heavy corporate
Distributerships, and effect on retail pricing of government regulated product safety testing etc.

[tandaina]

On Brian's recent Q&A he addressed a question on under cutting. This really has me worked up and feeling rather guilty. I would like to here all your opinions. This is such a fine community full of great people who I care about dearly! The short time I've been here I have received so much kindness. I can't even begin to tell you some of the amazing things people here have done for me!
Let me expound on why I feel guilty. Recently I bough a pilot 92 demonstrator. I did not have the money to buy it from most places so I went to Amazon. I found many Japanese sellers posting around 100 bucks, couldn't afford that so I searched deeper into Amazon , which can get tricky. After 10 mins into the pits of Amazon I see 1 fine nib blue demo 92 left in stock directly from Amazon for 78.00 shipped from Amazon prime... I don't know how that is possible buy it is real. This can't be good for pilot. Perfect example of what Brian spoke about today. I was not helping this community by buying that pen at that price.
Further more my post on first impressions of my new m805. I paid 40% less then what that pelikan should cost. I contacted pelikan to confirm Martenodena as a legit authorized retailer, but am lending to the devalue of pelikan brand? Probably... I don't understand how martemodena can sell at those prices and be an authorized dealer but they do. This is a touchy topic and I don't know what response I will get... Have at it!

It's hugely complex. Do huge corporations that buy in massive bulk (and therefore get discounts from the manufacturer) often make it hard to small businesses to compete. Yes. Undoubtedly. However that's not the whole story. I rarely buy Japanese pens from American distributers because the markup is frankly, obscene. This may be due to import duties, or what the Japanese manufacturers think they can get in the US, I have no clue. But often Japanese pens sell here for almost 2x what they sell for in Japan. Sorry, that's just insane. So I buy from Japanese sellers and pay for shipping (which is very reasonable from Japan.)

That's not undercutting, that's refusing to pay unreasonable mark ups. I am sure Brian and others like him feel the squeeze and when the price difference is small ($20, $15) I'll happily buy from a place with better service and slightly higher prices. But when the price differences are immense I'm going elsewhere.

For example: Vanness Pens in Little Rock sells Bung Box ink. I could probably get it cheaper through a Japanese distributer. HOWEVER, Vanness let's me tell them what I want (even seasonal stuff that can't be had but a few months a year) and then whenever they can get their hands on that stuff they email me "hey we found that super rare Halloween ink you wanted, want us to ship you one?" (Answer: DUH.) ;) That kind of service keeps me shopping with places like Vanness.

[Bri]

I can put my money wherever I want. That's the joy of competition. My right as a consumer. I order weekly from Goulet and I think their highest profit margin will be from their branded products and they should push those vs complaining. I'll let the vent slide for now and I'll continue to purchase my pen-related products from wherever I impulsively land on and whoever gets me my product the quickest.

[SeminarianMike]

On Brian's recent Q&A he addressed a question on under cutting. This really has me worked up and feeling rather guilty. I would like to here all your opinions. This is such a fine community full of great people who I care about dearly! The short time I've been here I have received so much kindness. I can't even begin to tell you some of the amazing things people here have done for me!
Let me expound on why I feel guilty. Recently I bough a pilot 92 demonstrator. I did not have the money to buy it from most places so I went to Amazon. I found many Japanese sellers posting around 100 bucks, couldn't afford that so I searched deeper into Amazon , which can get tricky. After 10 mins into the pits of Amazon I see 1 fine nib blue demo 92 left in stock directly from Amazon for 78.00 shipped from Amazon prime... I don't know how that is possible buy it is real. This can't be good for pilot. Perfect example of what Brian spoke about today. I was not helping this community by buying that pen at that price.
Further more my post on first impressions of my new m805. I paid 40% less then what that pelikan should cost. I contacted pelikan to confirm Martenodena as a legit authorized retailer, but am lending to the devalue of pelikan brand? Probably... I don't understand how martemodena can sell at those prices and be an authorized dealer but they do. This is a touchy topic and I don't know what response I will get... Have at it!

It's hugely complex. Do huge corporations that buy in massive bulk (and therefore get discounts from the manufacturer) often make it hard to small businesses to compete. Yes. Undoubtedly. However that's not the whole story. I rarely buy Japanese pens from American distributers because the markup is frankly, obscene. This may be due to import duties, or what the Japanese manufacturers think they can get in the US, I have no clue. But often Japanese pens sell here for almost 2x what they sell for in Japan. Sorry, that's just insane. So I buy from Japanese sellers and pay for shipping (which is very reasonable from Japan.)

That's not undercutting, that's refusing to pay unreasonable mark ups. I am sure Brian and others like him feel the squeeze and when the price difference is small ($20, $15) I'll happily buy from a place with better service and slightly higher prices. But when the price differences are immense I'm going elsewhere.

For example: Vanness Pens in Little Rock sells Bung Box ink. I could probably get it cheaper through a Japanese distributer. HOWEVER, Vanness let's me tell them what I want (even seasonal stuff that can't be had but a few months a year) and then whenever they can get their hands on that stuff they email me "hey we found that super rare Halloween ink you wanted, want us to ship you one?" (Answer: DUH.) ;) That kind of service keeps me shopping with places like Vanness.

There's super rare Halloween ink?!!! Seriously what's it called... Halloween is kinda my thing [emoji15][emoji15][emoji15][emoji15] sorry soon as I read that everything else went out the window

[katherine]

I think another thing worth mentioning is that "cheaper" sellers on Ebay/Amazon aren't hurting Pilot (or Pelikan) they're hurting other retailers like Goulet. A lot of these pricing discrepancies are the fault of manufacturers and distributors like Pilot that set different prices in different countries -- which us consumers are able to circumvent due to the internet. The prices on many (probably not all) pens from Japanese sellers is the price they sell for in stores in Japan -- for whatever reason, Pilot has much lower MSRPs in Japan.

[Haga888]

Agree. It's not the consumers fault though. Retailers should refuse to carry the product until the OEM fixes their discrepancies.

[TAYLORPUPPY]

I'll pay Brian's premium retail prices over all other foreign sellers. I don't care how deeply they slash the price. If I don't like his pen, he will let me return it. I'm not likely to have that luck with Bilbo baggins in east egypt. With that said. I don't think Brian did himself any favors with this video. I don't know if he was feeling down, maybe he was hungry and not thinking well. It was especially troubling to hear him say why he can't sell hi end platinum. I would have thought Brian would look for ways TO sell hi end platinum, as opposed to talking about why he cant.

There are highly reputable sellers in Japan that will under-cut the American dealers if you are willing to purchase online. There is nothing shifty about these sellers, and I think you should be careful about implying that ALL non-US retailers are disreputable, as you are with your "Bilbo Baggins in East Egypt" remark.

The upside of dealing with local stores is the level of service. The downside is the elevated cost. The reverse is mostly true for the good online sellers, except that in my opinion the disparity in prices is far more significant than the disparity in services.

You misunderstood me. I wasn't inferring that non US sellers are disreputable.

[KBeezie]

Second, the most important value-added service for me is the testing and tuning of the pen before shipping. I'm much more likely to pay extra to someone who will check and tune the pen than to someone who's merely a great guy. On that note, may John Mottishaw have a long and prosperous life and business, because I have every intention of buying from him again in the years to come. :)

Goulet doesn't do tuning, but they will check the nib upon request before shipping to at least prevent the rare mishap of getting a lemon or misaligned pen.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I'll pay Brian's premium retail prices over all other foreign sellers. I don't care how deeply they slash the price. If I don't like his pen, he will let me return it. I'm not likely to have that luck with Bilbo baggins in east egypt. With that said. I don't think Brian did himself any favors with this video. I don't know if he was feeling down, maybe he was hungry and not thinking well. It was especially troubling to hear him say why he can't sell hi end platinum. I would have thought Brian would look for ways TO sell hi end platinum, as opposed to talking about why he cant.

There are highly reputable sellers in Japan that will under-cut the American dealers if you are willing to purchase online. There is nothing shifty about these sellers, and I think you should be careful about implying that ALL non-US retailers are disreputable, as you are with your "Bilbo Baggins in East Egypt" remark.

The upside of dealing with local stores is the level of service. The downside is the elevated cost. The reverse is mostly true for the good online sellers, except that in my opinion the disparity in prices is far more significant than the disparity in services.

You misunderstood me. I wasn't inferring that non US sellers are disreputable.


Perhaps, but the way it was written suggests that people are heading to the shifty side of the internet, when the reality is that there are plenty of bona fide good sellers in Japan that will happily trade at their own market prices.

The bottom line with Japanese sellers is that they are not under cutting anyone. They represent the baseline prices. The foreign distribution laws that lead to higher prices in the US (for example) are not the fault of the local Japanese retailers. US businesses, if they feel strongly about this, should take it up with the appropriate people and lobby. The customer base is not the right audience for this campaign in my honest opinion.

[KBeezie]

The bottom line with Japanese sellers is that they are not under cutting anyone. They represent the baseline prices. The foreign distribution laws that lead to higher prices in the US (for example) are not the fault of the local Japanese retailers. US businesses, if they feel strongly about this, should take it up with the appropriate people and lobby. The customer base is not the right audience for this campaign in my honest opinion.


Though while many retailers don't say it outright, I do feel that many as a way of trying to compete use fear tactics to dissuade people from purchasing abroad, but the 'warnings' could apply to even US sellers.

Also far as eBay, Amazon, Rakuten the important thing to note is that they're market places, they themselves are not the retailers but rather there a large number of sellers, so if you know of a reputable seller, it's best to mention them by name rather than just the market place (for example on Rakuten I know Bunkidou shop and Pen-house are reputable, and Engeika on eBay or their own site).

[Sandy Fry]

I buy almost all of my pens online. I live in the desert. Nearest pen store is a 3 hour round trip if the traffic in Los Angeles is light but most times it is at least a 5 hour round trip.

So, why make that tedious trip when I can sit on my sofa, order the pen online and have it delivered to me?

David

[SaoDavi]

I'm also into watches, and a variation of this argument comes up with respect to buying from an AD with their fancy shop and overhead, or buying from a grey market dealer online.

With the markup on luxury watches being what it is, you can be talking about the difference between $750/$3000 for a mid-range watch, or $3300/$6000 for something nicer like an Omega.

I work hard for my money and I can't see the AD bringing me thousands of dollars in "added value".

Maybe Brian should just sell grey market pens for the brands he can't be price competitive with. Or, he should just not carry those brands until the dealer rectifies the pricing discrepancy.

Sounds like he wouldn't be losing much money since apparently, people aren't buying those overpriced pens from him anyway.

[sharmon202]

I do not know much about this but from my few experiences buying from Japan it seemed the taxes of getting it in here was my main problem.

[whichwatch]

I greatly admire what Brian and Rachel have done. They started from scratch and have built a highly successful business for themselves that has resulted in true job creation (as opposed to the kind the politicians claim). I have bought from them in the past and no doubt will do so in the future.

Having said that, I didn't feel much sympathy for Brian's lament. It seemed rather unseemly. Certainly he realizes that he did to traditional brick and mortar stores what he complains of others doing to him. I imagine if you sat a traditional B&M store owner in front of the camera and asked him what internet dealers such as Goulets have done to him, you'd hear a similar lament. Brian points out the hidden costs of a business (any business). I wonder if Brian can even imagine the costs of operating a B&M retail business in New York City or Washington DC?

Brian does a lot of videos, etc that he feels are value added. I think Brian and Rachel's extensive use of internet communication was excellent basic marketing, and is what initially raised their profile and helped them be noticed and attract business that helped them build. Their outstanding customer service keeps customers coming back. People who see a lot of value added in the videos, etc may be willing to pay a premium, others may not see value added and may be more price sensitive. The market sorts that out.

Overall, his complaint sounded like someone who moved into a new subdivision, then a year later complains that with all the new houses the place is getting too crowded. I thought it was beneath him. Nevertheless, I still think highly of him and his accomplishments. Perhaps he just had a "bad hair day".

The issue of inconsistent pricing in different geographies is a much more complicated one. I have no great expertise in this area regarding causes, so won't speculate. I'll simply state my experience as a consumer. I live in the USA and buy contemporary pens. Many come from other collectors via Pen sites or at pen shows. I prefer to buy lightly pre-owned, as they are a good bit less expensive. When I buy new ones, as long as pricing is close, some have come from B&M dealers in the US and others have come from internet dealers in the US. But when the price difference becomes huge I end up buying them elsewhere from anywhere in the world. So the new Aurora 365 Abissi I have on order will come from a US dealer, while the Pelikan Grand Place and Vibrant Blue are coming from a dealer in Italy.

[migo984]

I can't remember the last time I looked at the Goulet web-site & their videos don't appeal to me. And, to be frank, being indifferent to Goulet hasn't hampered my enjoyment and experience of fountain pens in the slightest.


I'm an online buyer, not based in the US. I've been happily buying pens and associated products for many years, from all over the world - mostly from excellent and competitively priced suppliers in Europe & Asia. I like exploring new sources & buying opportunities. I make my pennies count & don't pay unnecessary premiums. Ref member @whichwatch's post #47 above, I am "price sensitive".

Globalisation is here to stay and the AD market and RRP pricing model needs to wake up and better respond to that.


Pen sellers aren't charities - they charge like wounded bulls when they want to, and they aren't in the business of doing us all favours, however benevolent they want us thinking they are. Indeed I think some promulgate a clever business model that seems designed to disempower customers and make them feel obligated & dependent.


Ultimately they make good enough profits from us or they wouldn't be in business. To this end I find Brian Goulet's shroud-waving somewhat disingenuous.

[JoeFromNashville]

I'm a little late to jump in on this thread, and will admit to not having watched Brian's video Q&A, but I've heard him and other retailers make this argument before and my thoughts on this are fairly straightforward: it shouldn't be implied as somehow being the consumer's fault for going out and getting the best deal they can find on an item. I'm sure that U.S.-based retailers such as the Goulets benefit from non-US citizens purchasing their products at lower prices than they can get in their home countries. Case in point, I know that Pilot products are much more expensive in the UK when purchased through retailers linked to the UK distributor, because the distributor sets much higher prices. Last I heard, the same was true for U.S.-manufactured products like Noodler's ink, etc. Goulet Pens ships internationally, so in a way they could be said to be contributing to the same problem they are complaining about.

I love the Goulets, I buy stuff from them regularly, and have for years. However, it's a bit of a pot/kettle situation, since I distinctly remember Brian in an early video or podcast expressing the sentiment that he didn't feel bad for mom/pop brick & mortar retailers going out of business because it was a "dying" business model that couldn't compete with e-commerce. This was right before Art Brown closed, which made me really sad, and it rubbed me the wrong way.

When I link to deals, etc. on my blog and twitter feed, I typically try to link to the best deal I can find on the item. My audience is the consumer, not the retailer. That said, I would say that MOST of the time I end up linking to a mainstream retailer such as Goulet or PenChalet, and NOT an eBay seller, because there's a limited universe of items you can get a "better deal" on. However, if I can buy a Platinum Bourgogne via Amazon for $61 (like I did yesterday), it honestly just doesn't make sense for me to spend $176 to buy it from Goulet. Personally, if it's a really expensive pen (over $250), many times I will choose to buy from the U.S. retailer so I have some additional comfort in case there's a problem with the pen. If I choose to buy from Japan, often it's because they offer a nib or color that I can't get from a U.S. retailer anyway. For example, I wanted the Pilot Custom Heritage 92 in Orange, not clear, and I paid $110 to get it from Amazon. If I went through an "authorized US reseller," I would only be able to get the clear version for over $200.

I'd also note that many of these items appear to be shipping from Amazon in the U.S., not from overseas. Perhaps these manufacturers are now dealing with Amazon directly, and cutting out the middle man?

[TAYLORPUPPY]

On Brian's recent Q&A he addressed a question on under cutting. This really has me worked up and feeling rather guilty. I would like to here all your opinions. This is such a fine community full of great people who I care about dearly! The short time I've been here I have received so much kindness. I can't even begin to tell you some of the amazing things people here have done for me!
Let me expound on why I feel guilty. Recently I bough a pilot 92 demonstrator. I did not have the money to buy it from most places so I went to Amazon. I found many Japanese sellers posting around 100 bucks, couldn't afford that so I searched deeper into Amazon , which can get tricky. After 10 mins into the pits of Amazon I see 1 fine nib blue demo 92 left in stock directly from Amazon for 78.00 shipped from Amazon prime... I don't know how that is possible buy it is real. This can't be good for pilot. Perfect example of what Brian spoke about today. I was not helping this community by buying that pen at that price.
Further more my post on first impressions of my new m805. I paid 40% less then what that pelikan should cost. I contacted pelikan to confirm Martenodena as a legit authorized retailer, but am lending to the devalue of pelikan brand? Probably... I don't understand how martemodena can sell at those prices and be an authorized dealer but they do. This is a touchy topic and I don't know what response I will get... Have at it!

It's hugely complex. Do huge corporations that buy in massive bulk (and therefore get discounts from the manufacturer) often make it hard to small businesses to compete. Yes. Undoubtedly. However that's not the whole story. I rarely buy Japanese pens from American distributers because the markup is frankly, obscene. This may be due to import duties, or what the Japanese manufacturers think they can get in the US, I have no clue. But often Japanese pens sell here for almost 2x what they sell for in Japan. Sorry, that's just insane. So I buy from Japanese sellers and pay for shipping (which is very reasonable from Japan.)

That's not undercutting, that's refusing to pay unreasonable mark ups. I am sure Brian and others like him feel the squeeze and when the price difference is small ($20, $15) I'll happily buy from a place with better service and slightly higher prices. But when the price differences are immense I'm going elsewhere.

For example: Vanness Pens in Little Rock sells Bung Box ink. I could probably get it cheaper through a Japanese distributer. HOWEVER, Vanness let's me tell them what I want (even seasonal stuff that can't be had but a few months a year) and then whenever they can get their hands on that stuff they email me "hey we found that super rare Halloween ink you wanted, want us to ship you one?" (Answer: DUH.) ;) That kind of service keeps me shopping with places like Vanness.

Excellent point of view.

[Cookies]

Perhaps I'm a bit biased, because I honestly don't love the Goulets for a variety of reasons, but I find the point a bit annoying to be honest. It's one thing to discuss the issue of enormous corporations out-pricing smaller business and running out all of their competition. It's a completely different beast to complain when consumers shop around to find an affordable price. If the Goulets are providing a service worth a 60% markup, people will go there. In my opinion they are not. I'll pay full MSRP from nibs.com/Mottishaw or (formerly) Richard Binder. But I don't see the Goulets providing any service even remotely worth their prices.

In all honesty it's not the fault of these sellers that companies like Pilot jack up the price so much for international markets, but there is no reason individuals should have to pay this markup instead of looking for the affordable option. It's not the job of consumers to blindly hand their money to whoever wants it the most.

[TSherbs]

....In all honesty it's not the fault of these sellers that companies like Pilot jack up the price so much for international markets, but there is no reason individuals should have to pay this markup instead of looking for the affordable option. It's not the job of consumers to blindly hand their money to whoever wants it the most.

Actually, Mr. Goulet in that video states that he does the same thing when he spends his own money: shops around for the low price.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

....In all honesty it's not the fault of these sellers that companies like Pilot jack up the price so much for international markets, but there is no reason individuals should have to pay this markup instead of looking for the affordable option. It's not the job of consumers to blindly hand their money to whoever wants it the most.

Actually, Mr. Goulet in that video states that he does the same thing when he spends his own money: shops around for the low price.


Which lends a sizeable degree of hypocrisy to the video, doesn't it?

[mhosea]

....In all honesty it's not the fault of these sellers that companies like Pilot jack up the price so much for international markets, but there is no reason individuals should have to pay this markup instead of looking for the affordable option. It's not the job of consumers to blindly hand their money to whoever wants it the most.

Actually, Mr. Goulet in that video states that he does the same thing when he spends his own money: shops around for the low price.


Which lends a sizeable degree of hypocrisy to the video, doesn't it?

No, I don't think it adds any at all. I took the time to watch the answer on the video, and I don't think the context of that statement included resorting to gray market type sellers when making a purchase. Furthermore, he stressed a non-judgmental, albeit passionate, perspective on it all. I personally think it was a nice answer.

[Bogon07]

I'm sure that U.S.-based retailers such as the Goulets benefit from non-US citizens purchasing their products at lower prices than they can get in their home countries. Case in point, I know that Pilot products are much more expensive in the UK when purchased through retailers linked to the UK distributor, because the distributor sets much higher prices. Last I heard, the same was true for U.S.-manufactured products like Noodler's ink, etc. Goulet Pens ships internationally, so in a way they could be said to be contributing to the same problem they are complaining about.

I love the Goulets, I buy stuff from them regularly, and have for years. However, it's a bit of a pot/kettle situation, since I distinctly remember Brian in an early video or podcast expressing the sentiment that he didn't feel bad for mom/pop brick & mortar retailers going out of business because it was a "dying" business model that couldn't compete with e-commerce. This was right before Art Brown closed, which made me really sad, and it rubbed me the wrong way.

A few years ago before the $AUD dropped parity with the USD and shipping was reasonable ordering Noodler's Ink or FieldNotes for instance was half the price of Australian sellers. A situation which now seems to be echoed in the Japanese (and some European) pen prices. It is a bit silly to expect products outside the country of origin to be cheaper but you would expect a marginal and fair mark up. Unfortunately this does not appear to happen with many products in "captive markets" where the distributors can set whatever price they think the market will bare.

I do feel a bit sorry for Brian Goulet as his business is tied to these distributors and has to appear to support them. However you would expect that if the US or any retailers are buying products from their distributors/importers for more than some rivals are selling, then they would be making vigorous representations to those companies to lower their prices/costs - hopefully this is happening behind the scenes. But who really knows the actual figures outside of the stationery business.

I do see Brian's video as an attempt to sell his business, justify prices and try to retain customers in the face of greater competition as did the mom/pop B&M sellers.
I think he has grown his business to a size where he now will have trouble re-structuring to cut costs and remain competitive.

[TSherbs]

....In all honesty it's not the fault of these sellers that companies like Pilot jack up the price so much for international markets, but there is no reason individuals should have to pay this markup instead of looking for the affordable option. It's not the job of consumers to blindly hand their money to whoever wants it the most.

Actually, Mr. Goulet in that video states that he does the same thing when he spends his own money: shops around for the low price.


Which lends a sizeable degree of hypocrisy to the video, doesn't it?

No, I don't think it adds any at all. I took the time to watch the answer on the video, and I don't think the context of that statement included resorting to gray market type sellers when making a purchase. Furthermore, he stressed a non-judgmental, albeit passionate, perspective on it all. I personally think it was a nice answer.

What does "gray market" mean, exactly?

[Jon Szanto]

What does "gray market" mean, exactly?

That Google thing is so handy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_market).

[TAYLORPUPPY]

I'm a little late to jump in on this thread, and will admit to not having watched Brian's video Q&A, but I've heard him and other retailers make this argument before and my thoughts on this are fairly straightforward: it shouldn't be implied as somehow being the consumer's fault for going out and getting the best deal they can find on an item. I'm sure that U.S.-based retailers such as the Goulets benefit from non-US citizens purchasing their products at lower prices than they can get in their home countries. Case in point, I know that Pilot products are much more expensive in the UK when purchased through retailers linked to the UK distributor, because the distributor sets much higher prices. Last I heard, the same was true for U.S.-manufactured products like Noodler's ink, etc. Goulet Pens ships internationally, so in a way they could be said to be contributing to the same problem they are complaining about.

I love the Goulets, I buy stuff from them regularly, and have for years. However, it's a bit of a pot/kettle situation, since I distinctly remember Brian in an early video or podcast expressing the sentiment that he didn't feel bad for mom/pop brick & mortar retailers going out of business because it was a "dying" business model that couldn't compete with e-commerce. This was right before Art Brown closed, which made me really sad, and it rubbed me the wrong way.

When I link to deals, etc. on my blog and twitter feed, I typically try to link to the best deal I can find on the item. My audience is the consumer, not the retailer. That said, I would say that MOST of the time I end up linking to a mainstream retailer such as Goulet or PenChalet, and NOT an eBay seller, because there's a limited universe of items you can get a "better deal" on. However, if I can buy a Platinum Bourgogne via Amazon for $61 (like I did yesterday), it honestly just doesn't make sense for me to spend $176 to buy it from Goulet. Personally, if it's a really expensive pen (over $250), many times I will choose to buy from the U.S. retailer so I have some additional comfort in case there's a problem with the pen. If I choose to buy from Japan, often it's because they offer a nib or color that I can't get from a U.S. retailer anyway. For example, I wanted the Pilot Custom Heritage 92 in Orange, not clear, and I paid $110 to get it from Amazon. If I went through an "authorized US reseller," I would only be able to get the clear version for over $200.

I'd also note that many of these items appear to be shipping from Amazon in the U.S., not from overseas. Perhaps these manufacturers are now dealing with Amazon directly, and cutting out the middle man?

Did he really say that, that he doesn't care about putting mom & pop, B&M stores out of business? I hope you're wrong. The biggest thing that turned me off in his recent video, was when he started pointing out what he does for us and how they were debating on whether or not it was worth it to him to continue.
Mr Goulet, I'm the guy that asks for a Golf scene to be drawn on his receipts. I've always heard that this is something you enjoyed doing. I could have overlooked your complaining but to hear that you were all for mom & pop going out business.
Maybe what comes around goes around.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

....In all honesty it's not the fault of these sellers that companies like Pilot jack up the price so much for international markets, but there is no reason individuals should have to pay this markup instead of looking for the affordable option. It's not the job of consumers to blindly hand their money to whoever wants it the most.

Actually, Mr. Goulet in that video states that he does the same thing when he spends his own money: shops around for the low price.


Which lends a sizeable degree of hypocrisy to the video, doesn't it?

No, I don't think it adds any at all. I took the time to watch the answer on the video, and I don't think the context of that statement included resorting to gray market type sellers when making a purchase. Furthermore, he stressed a non-judgmental, albeit passionate, perspective on it all. I personally think it was a nice answer.


I too took the time to watch the entire video, some parts of it twice, but if Brian complains about customers seeking the best economic deals when he admits to doing exactly the same thing when spending his personal money, well... that is hypocrisy. Bear in mind that I am not in the US, so the Goulet Pen Company is just one of many online sellers to me, and their service provision is of little relevance. In this respect, and measured against the reputable part of the internet market, the Goulets are not competitive in the slightest. That is, they offer nothing more for their extra cost. If you live in the US then your perspective will be a bit different.

[JoeFromNashville]

I don't recall it being said maliciously, but more just a very matter-of-fact observation of how he felt it was the natural way of things for businesses to fail if they couldn't adapt to changing circumstances. I couldn't tell you which video or podcast it was in--it may actually have been in one of the old "write time" broadcasts, but I recall it because it was in the context of him discussing how his all online business model was the way of the future for pens.

In a way, he's right, but he needs to learn to adapt just like everyone else (as I'm sure he's doing). With more and more retailers getting into the online pen business--both domestically and internationally--larger operators like the Goulets may not be able to stay competitive on certain brands/products where it's easy for others to offer a far better price.

[mhosea]

I too took the time to watch the entire video, some parts of it twice, but if Brian complains about customers seeking the best economic deals

First of all, I like Brian, but I've never considered GPC as a vendor of choice for high-priced pens. I bought from Richard Binder a bunch, and I also bought from Japanese sellers on eBay. I was never that into Pilot pens, but most of my Sailors came to me directly from Japan. But I was able to watch the video without feeling defensive. I think the reason for that is that Brian doesn't actually make the argument that it's the customer's fault. The point of admitting that he tends to shop around on price was to emphasize a non-judgmental point of view ("I'm just like you"). That is to say, he's not there to bust your balls about shopping around for the lowest price. But he goes on to lay out a case for other factors that might be taken into account in the decision-making process other than price. It's a long, rambling response, and he confesses to having some feelings about certain things in spite of the fact that he knows, and accepts, that business is business. We could argue that some of those feelings aren't really "justified", but since when do feelings require justification in order to be felt? Ultimately he argues that it's really up to the manufacturer to police these things, as difficult as that might be. Now, in a response that long and rambling, you can no doubt reach in and pull stuff out of context to call "hypocrisy", but if there's hypocrisy there, it's just the everyday "fat doctor" sort of hypocrisy. He tells you, he tells himself. Maybe neither one of you will ultimately be able to follow that advice, but that doesn't mean the advice is wrong or that he's wrong to offer it.

[TAYLORPUPPY]

I too took the time to watch the entire video, some parts of it twice, but if Brian complains about customers seeking the best economic deals

First of all, I like Brian, but I've never considered GPC as a vendor of choice for high-priced pens. I bought from Richard Binder a bunch, and I also bought from Japanese sellers on eBay. I was never that into Pilot pens, but most of my Sailors came to me directly from Japan. But I was able to watch the video without feeling defensive. I think the reason for that is that Brian doesn't actually make the argument that it's the customer's fault. The point of admitting that he tends to shop around on price was to emphasize a non-judgmental point of view ("I'm just like you"). That is to say, he's not there to bust your balls about shopping around for the lowest price. But he goes on to lay out a case for other factors that might be taken into account in the decision-making process other than price. It's a long, rambling response, and he confesses to having some feelings about certain things in spite of the fact that he knows, and accepts, that business is business. We could argue that some of those feelings aren't really "justified", but since when do feelings require justification in order to be felt? Ultimately he argues that it's really up to the manufacturer to police these things, as difficult as that might be. Now, in a response that long and rambling, you can no doubt reach in and pull stuff out of context to call "hypocrisy", but if there's hypocrisy there, it's just the everyday "fat doctor" sort of hypocrisy. He tells you, he tells himself. Maybe neither one of you will ultimately be able to follow that advice, but that doesn't mean the advice is wrong or that he's wrong to offer it.

This was a very good,well thought out response. However, the one thing that can't be taken out of context is when at an earlier time,he said he had no problem with putting mom & pop out of business. As there's was a dying business model. Now he's lamenting the loss of some sales. That's not such a big deal, but when you start throwing up in your customers faces what you're doing for them and how hard it is and whether or not it's with it to you to continue. That's where I draw the line

[Jon Szanto]

This was a very good,well thought out response. However, the one thing that can't be taken out of context is when at an earlier time,he said he had no problem with putting mom & pop out of business. As there's was a dying business model. Now he's lamenting the loss of some sales. That's not such a big deal, but when you start throwing up in your customers faces what you're doing for them and how hard it is and whether or not it's with it to you to continue. That's where I draw the line

You know, it's all well and good to be anecdotal, and in my early comments I made mention that I thought I remembered Mr. Goulet discussing as much in a general sense. However, you have just attributed to him the statement that he had "no problem with putting mom and pop out of business". I'd really like a source for that, because otherwise it is a pretty damning statement without any evidence whatsoever. I'm happy to form opinions based on what someone says, but not on what someone else says they said.

Please link to a source.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

As I mentioned before, whatever value the Goulet Pen Company, and Brian in the video, thinks that is added has little relevance as I am outside the US. That makes the view much simpler.

[mhosea]

but when you start throwing up in your customers faces what you're doing for them and how hard it is

I'm with you on this point.

[Jon Szanto]

As I mentioned before, whatever value the Goulet Pen Company, and Brian in the video, thinks that is added has little relevance as I am outside the US. That makes the view much simpler.

Couldn't agree more. And while communication on the Internet is global in nature, business isn't so. I'm certain that, while his video goes out in a wide manner, he is probably directing his comments at the U.S. market. There isn't any way, if I lived in an country outside the U.S., that I would see an advantage to purchasing from them, unless they had items I couldn't source elsewhere, as the shipping would certainly be prohibitive.

[JoeFromNashville]

This was a very good,well thought out response. However, the one thing that can't be taken out of context is when at an earlier time,he said he had no problem with putting mom & pop out of business. As there's was a dying business model. Now he's lamenting the loss of some sales. That's not such a big deal, but when you start throwing up in your customers faces what you're doing for them and how hard it is and whether or not it's with it to you to continue. That's where I draw the line

You know, it's all well and good to be anecdotal, and in my early comments I made mention that I thought I remembered Mr. Goulet discussing as much in a general sense. However, you have just attributed to him the statement that he had "no problem with putting mom and pop out of business". I'd really like a source for that, because otherwise it is a pretty damning statement without any evidence whatsoever. I'm happy to form opinions based on what someone says, but not on what someone else says they said.

Please link to a source.

I want to go on record here saying this was not a direct quote. The "quote" you reference is my own language, that I used when trying to summarize a discussion that Brian had on a podcast or video probably three years ago. Of course Brian, the person, doesn't "want" to put "Mom and Pop retailers" out of business; the discussion was that from a business perspective he didn't objectively feel "bad" about it because he believed Brick and mortar stores were pursuing a business model that no longer worked. And honestly, he's right. Many old-school B&M pen dealers were never going to make it long-term. They had too much overhead and rising rents (especially in places like NYC) effectively made their business model obsolete. Again, I don't recall it being said maliciously, but at the time I remember the discussion rubbed me the wrong way. IMHO, "online" is not necessarily "better", and there wasn't a lot of appreciation for the contributions to the community made by brick and mortar retailers who allowed you to try/sample pens in person, etc. Now, given the lower barriers of entry to becoming an online seller with very low overhead, the larger, "established" online sellers are to a certain degree becoming the victims of their own success as they are less able to compete on price. I'd add that Brian is far from the only pen dealer who complains about eBay price competition.

[DPWilkens]

I viewed that Q/A topic with interest when it popped up on my newsfeed. I think there are really two completely different issues here: one is selling high end imported FPs at their msrp, when the msrp in Japan or another country is set lower. That problem should be laid at the feet of the manufacturer though. In a global market there's not much domestic retailers can do about it except to provide great service and speedy, reliable shipping (which Goulet does). The other issue is with Jinhaos and other lower end pens. They simply are overpriced by American retailers. The only way I can see to justify that is for the retailer to provide a replacement, no questions asked, if the pen doesn't work right. I think there are old-school, brick and mortar retailers (the ones old-school enough or out of touch enough not to have an online storefront) who could argue that online retailers like Goulet are undercutting them. There's always a bigger fish.

At any rate, I spread my money around. I've bought pens and accoutrements from several American online retailers, and recommend the good ones to anyone who asks. I also shop on ebay from sellers in China or India and have generally been pleased by the products I get there. I don't lose sleep over any of it.

[jar]

One of the issues as is so often the case is that laws and regulations do not keep up with technology and reality. A great example related to this thread involves Amazon. It is not unusual for manufacturers to set prices for their products based on geographic markets. If a manufacturer sets a higher price for items sold through their US Distributor network that for the same item though their domestic network, generally that is still fair. Anyone that wants to buy at the lower domestic price range would have to also deal with the extra costs and hassle involved in importation. But with the advent of entities like Amazon the situation changed. The seller from the domestic market can list and sell the item at the domestic market price while the seller from the US must list and sell the item at the higher US price.

These are issues that will need to be addressed on a world-wide basis and certainly will be contentious.

[Jon Szanto]

This was a very good,well thought out response. However, the one thing that can't be taken out of context is when at an earlier time,he said he had no problem with putting mom & pop out of business. As there's was a dying business model. Now he's lamenting the loss of some sales. That's not such a big deal, but when you start throwing up in your customers faces what you're doing for them and how hard it is and whether or not it's with it to you to continue. That's where I draw the line

You know, it's all well and good to be anecdotal, and in my early comments I made mention that I thought I remembered Mr. Goulet discussing as much in a general sense. However, you have just attributed to him the statement that he had "no problem with putting mom and pop out of business". I'd really like a source for that, because otherwise it is a pretty damning statement without any evidence whatsoever. I'm happy to form opinions based on what someone says, but not on what someone else says they said.

Please link to a source.

I want to go on record here saying this was not a direct quote...

Well... I am not certain why you are mentioning this when I was referring to TaylorPuppy's message, but it is as I recall it, as well: a non-malicious reference by Brian Goulet as to the current state of brick stores a few years ago. He was acknowledging that online stores had certain financial advantages, *not* that it was his aim to put them out of business, which seemed implied in TaylorPuppy's 'quote'. I don't want to bog down *this* discussion on just a technicality, so I'll just move on from here.

[TSherbs]

I want to go on record here saying this was not a direct quote. The "quote" you reference is my own language, that I used when trying to summarize a discussion that Brian had on a podcast or video probably three years ago. Of course Brian, the person, doesn't "want" to put "Mom and Pop retailers" out of business; the discussion was that from a business perspective he didn't objectively feel "bad" about it because he believed Brick and mortar stores were pursuing a business model that no longer worked. And honestly, he's right. Many old-school B&M pen dealers were never going to make it long-term. They had too much overhead and rising rents (especially in places like NYC) effectively made their business model obsolete. Again, I don't recall it being said maliciously, but at the time I remember the discussion rubbed me the wrong way. IMHO, "online" is not necessarily "better", and there wasn't a lot of appreciation for the contributions to the community made by brick and mortar retailers who allowed you to try/sample pens in person, etc. Now, given the lower barriers of entry to becoming an online seller with very low overhead, the larger, "established" online sellers are to a certain degree becoming the victims of their own success as they are less able to compete on price. I'd add that Brian is far from the only pen dealer who complains about eBay price competition.

Furthermore, I doubt it that Mr. Goulet, or any other retailer, is vetting his customers in order to minimize the impact his new customers are having on those vendors that they move on from. In other words, my guess is that gouletpens.com will take any customers from anywhere with any prior retail experience in pens and sell them as much as they can for as long as they can without regard to the financial consequence on any other vendor or economic consequence on the economy or pen-producers (they don't carry all pen brands). I have written them about reducing their packaging waste in plastic to reduce the toxic waste stream, for example, and was told that it was not economically viable for them.

earth: 0

gouletpens.com: 1

[Empty_of_Clouds]

When I ordered my TWSBI 580AL it came in it's own manufacturer's box, which was wrapped with a single piece of bubble-wrap that only just went around the pen once, and then placed in the shipping box. That was it for packaging. Hardly excessive, in fact barely adequate really.

[catbert]

Bear in mind that I am not in the US, so the Goulet Pen Company is just one of many online sellers to me, and their service provision is of little relevance. In this respect, and measured against the reputable part of the internet market, the Goulets are not competitive in the slightest. That is, they offer nothing more for their extra cost. If you live in the US then your perspective will be a bit different.

Their online comparison tools remain useful and relevant outside the US. Some appreciate a well-packed shipment with a personal touch.




I have written them about reducing their packaging waste in plastic to reduce the toxic waste stream, for example, and was told that it was not economically viable for them.

earth: 0

gouletpens.com: 1

Can consumers in a global economy really play the environmental card, given the impact of air freight? Vintage-pen-buying locavores excepted, perhaps.

[ChrisC]

Their online comparison tools remain useful and relevant outside the US. Some appreciate a well-packed shipment with a personal touch.




I have written them about reducing their packaging waste in plastic to reduce the toxic waste stream, for example, and was told that it was not economically viable for them.

earth: 0

gouletpens.com: 1

Can consumers in a global economy really play the environmental card, given the impact of air freight? Vintage-pen-buying locavores excepted, perhaps.

The pen industry's (talking about fountain pens only) impact on the environment is probably negligible. Those planes with our international packages would be flying either way. I doubt we even make up 0.001% of the volume of air freight.

[TSherbs]

When I ordered my TWSBI 580AL it came in it's own manufacturer's box, which was wrapped with a single piece of bubble-wrap that only just went around the pen once, and then placed in the shipping box. That was it for packaging. Hardly excessive, in fact barely adequate really.

There are alternatives to bubble wrap.

[TSherbs]

I have written them about reducing their packaging waste in plastic to reduce the toxic waste stream, for example, and was told that it was not economically viable for them.

earth: 0

gouletpens.com: 1

Can consumers in a global economy really play the environmental card, given the impact of air freight? Vintage-pen-buying locavores excepted, perhaps.

Yes, consumers can care about and vote with their dollars any way they want (if that is what you mean by "card"). And yes, production, shipping, transportation, and disposal methods ALL contribute to the waste product.

Reduce (not always "eliminate"), re-use, recycle.

[catbert]

Their online comparison tools remain useful and relevant outside the US. Some appreciate a well-packed shipment with a personal touch.




I have written them about reducing their packaging waste in plastic to reduce the toxic waste stream, for example, and was told that it was not economically viable for them.

earth: 0

gouletpens.com: 1

Can consumers in a global economy really play the environmental card, given the impact of air freight? Vintage-pen-buying locavores excepted, perhaps.

The pen industry's (talking about fountain pens only) impact on the environment is probably negligible. Those planes with our international packages would be flying either way. I doubt we even make up 0.001% of the volume of air freight.

Yup, the impact of our niche is negligible by any measure, which was kind of my point - and why I said 'consumers'. Bashing Goulet for lack of green cred ignores the far greater effects of our other buying.

Air freight being arguably more damaging than mostly recyclable packing material was the other point.


And now, back to your regularly scheduled discussion ... :)

[TSherbs]

Bashing Goulet for lack of green cred ignores the far greater effects of our other buying.

I "ignored" nothing. I was pointing out how, as a typical retailer, gouletpens.com puts their own costs and profits ahead of some other concerns, from the plight of other vendors they might lure clients away from to the "cost" to our landfills (or oceans or atmosphere after incineration) that their packaging decisions might have.

[Lady Onogaro]

I do remember people asking about whether Goulet would take returns on the sample bottles, and they said they did not--that it was not cost-efficient to them and that we should recycle them. I can't see how it would not be cost-efficient for them to take the bottles back. I would send mine and see mine re-used rather than throw them into the recycling bin, even if our recycling team does send them on to be recycled.

[mhosea]

I can't see how it would not be cost-efficient for them to take the bottles back.

Having cleaned a lot of them and reused them for my own purposes, I wouldn't wish for that as a daily task, especially if trying to clean them to like-new condition. Some inks simply don't permit that, even if using harsh chemicals.

[TSherbs]

I do remember people asking about whether Goulet would take returns on the sample bottles, and they said they did not--that it was not cost-efficient to them and that we should recycle them. I can't see how it would not be cost-efficient for them to take the bottles back. I would send mine and see mine re-used rather than throw them into the recycling bin, even if our recycling team does send them on to be recycled.

Interesting. These are not made with a plastic with a recycling symbol.

Yes, reusing as long as possible is the first choice.

[catbert]

I have written them about reducing their packaging waste in plastic to reduce the toxic waste stream, for example, and was told that it was not economically viable for them.

earth: 0

gouletpens.com: 1

Can consumers in a global economy really play the environmental card, given the impact of air freight? Vintage-pen-buying locavores excepted, perhaps.

Yes, consumers can care about and vote with their dollars any way they want (if that is what you mean by "card"). And yes, production, shipping, transportation, and disposal methods ALL contribute to the waste product.

Reduce (not always "eliminate"), re-use, recycle.

Totally agree. Though there's a balance between overpackaging and preventing breakages that lead to further waste and replacement costs.



Bashing Goulet for lack of green cred ignores the far greater effects of our other buying.

I "ignored" nothing. I was pointing out how, as a typical retailer, gouletpens.com puts their own costs and profits ahead of some other concerns, from the plight of other vendors they might lure clients away from to the "cost" to our landfills (or oceans or atmosphere after incineration) that their packaging decisions might have.

Not to mention typical consumers and producers. Planet: 0, humans: 1?

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Not to mention typical consumers and producers. Planet: 0, humans: 1?

Taking a truly long term view I suspect that eventually it will be Planet: 1, humans: 0.

[catbert]

Not to mention typical consumers and producers. Planet: 0, humans: 1?

Taking a truly long term view I suspect that eventually it will be Planet: 1, humans: 0.

And ultimately nil-nil, taking the longest view.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Taking the longest view? Perhaps then it will be Universe:1, everything else: 0! :)

[catbert]

Taking the longest view? Perhaps then it will be Universe:1, everything else: 0! :)

Or still nil-nil, because entropy. I think. Long time since I read that stuff.

[Cookies]

I want to go on record here saying this was not a direct quote. The "quote" you reference is my own language, that I used when trying to summarize a discussion that Brian had on a podcast or video probably three years ago. Of course Brian, the person, doesn't "want" to put "Mom and Pop retailers" out of business; the discussion was that from a business perspective he didn't objectively feel "bad" about it because he believed Brick and mortar stores were pursuing a business model that no longer worked. And honestly, he's right. Many old-school B&M pen dealers were never going to make it long-term. They had too much overhead and rising rents (especially in places like NYC) effectively made their business model obsolete. Again, I don't recall it being said maliciously, but at the time I remember the discussion rubbed me the wrong way. IMHO, "online" is not necessarily "better", and there wasn't a lot of appreciation for the contributions to the community made by brick and mortar retailers who allowed you to try/sample pens in person, etc. Now, given the lower barriers of entry to becoming an online seller with very low overhead, the larger, "established" online sellers are to a certain degree becoming the victims of their own success as they are less able to compete on price. I'd add that Brian is far from the only pen dealer who complains about eBay price competition.

Furthermore, I doubt it that Mr. Goulet, or any other retailer, is vetting his customers in order to minimize the impact his new customers are having on those vendors that they move on from. In other words, my guess is that gouletpens.com will take any customers from anywhere with any prior retail experience in pens and sell them as much as they can for as long as they can without regard to the financial consequence on any other vendor or economic consequence on the economy or pen-producers (they don't carry all pen brands). I have written them about reducing their packaging waste in plastic to reduce the toxic waste stream, for example, and was told that it was not economically viable for them.

earth: 0

gouletpens.com: 1

This is one of the main reasons I dislike the Goulets, and the reason I stopped shopping with them. The abundance of extras in every one of their shipments is really just obnoxious. Having feet of blue plastic wrap added to a shipment of one notebook and two ink samples is beyond wasteful. Their environmental apathy has been brought to their attention by numerous people and their canned response is alway something to the effect of 'Well packing this was really saves materials because we don't have to ship something twice if it breaks'. In reality, if that much were necessary than every pen retailer would be following suit. Somehow they remain the only ones.
They've also mentioned that greener plastic alternatives/recycled plastic alternatives don't work as well. And as someone who uses them on a regular basis to ship fragile framed work, that's a load of nonsense. If this is what they're willing giving to customers, I can only imagine their wastefulness at their business. You can't force compassion on anyone, but you can be selective with your money.

[Chemyst]

It is interesting to review this (older) blog post (http://blog.gouletpens.com/2010/09/lets-talk-amazon.html) from when the Goulet Pen Company was transitioning from a kit pen turning operation to a stationery and ink retailer.

Myself and others suggested at the time that "fulfillment by Amazon" could have a positive effect, in that it freed Brian from the drudgery of packing and shipping orders. This would allow him to put items before a larger audience, resulting in increased volume, lower prices and would free Brian up to focus on the things he loved doing like ink comparision tools, videos and seeking out new interesting things to offer for sale.

Unfortunately, he couldn't wrap his head around the idea that he could actually become more informed about the products he was selling and devote more time to customer interactions if he outsourced the logistical portion of his budding company.

Doubling down on his initial opinion has brought some interesting results today. Where, as he says, often times the team has to alter their schedule to allow for handwritten notes to go out with every order. Where he is essentially paying for one full time employee to write those notes. Where you can always count on getting a "robustly" packaged order.

The Pen Economics blog offered some interesting comments recently as well, related to business structural issues at Goulet Pens (http://www.peneconomics.com/blog/2015/2/7/retailer-analysis-goulet-pens). In addition to Mr. Deans' comments about needing a constant influx of new customers to keep the business going, it is also interesting to consider the level of effort that a lot of the GPC "extras" offer versus their perceived value to the customer. I'd suggest that some of the most "valuable", like the ink comparision tool, require the least effort over time, while many of the least valuable items, like frequent hour plus videos or over packaging require the most effort to generate and sustain. There may be some efficiencies to be gained by focusing on high value-low effort items and getting rid of (or outsourcing to Amazon) the low value-high effort items.

[Hawk]

Chemyst,
Your post is very interesting however, it is Brian and Rachael's company and they have their business model. If it works, fine, they make a lot of money. If it doesn't work and don't reinvent themselves, they go down the tubes. There are many ways to run a business and probably yours would work and make you money. Being critical (in suggesting how he should run his business) is, in my opinion, not relevant to this thread. By saying this, it would be a very interesting thread to start and would bring in many varied thoughts.

[Chemyst]

Chemyst,
Being critical (in suggesting how he should run his business) is, in my opinion, not relevant to this thread.

I'd suggest that it is related given the thread topic is 1.) Amazon and eBay sellers offering cheaper prices and 2.) the "added value" that the current iteration of GPC offers to customers and to the community as a whole.

[KKay]

I like Goulet Pens. I have bought from them 3 times now. As far as recycling the ink sample bottles, that is simple. I give away the sample that is left, if I plan to buy that ink. Or if the sample didn't work for me, I give that away too. Those bottles could come in handy for things in the future, for a lot of little items. I won't be throwing those little bottles away, so they won't go in the trash dump!

[Jd16]

Myself and others suggested at the time that "fulfillment by Amazon" could have a positive effect, in that it freed Brian from the drudgery of packing and shipping orders. This would allow him to put items before a larger audience, resulting in increased volume, lower prices and would free Brian up to focus on the things he loved doing like ink comparision tools, videos and seeking out new interesting things to offer for sale.

Unfortunately, he couldn't wrap his head around the idea that he could actually become more informed about the products he was selling and devote more time to customer interactions if he outsourced the logistical portion of his budding company.

First off, thank you for linking to my blog (peneconomics.com (http://www.peneconomics.com)). I'm not a regular FPG-er and wasn't aware of this discussion until I saw the traffic coming from your link. I appreciate both the traffic and the alert to this quite interesting discussion.

I had a recent conversation with Brian where we discussed the topic of Fulfilment by Amazon. He brought it up and explained his thinking. I don't want to share the details of a private conversation but it was quite obvious to me that he had been interested in the idea, done his due diligence, weighed up the benefits of the service against the costs, and found that overall it wasn't worthwhile. It's not something I've researched for myself but given the information he shared with me, I felt it was a sound decision -- even incorporating the opportunity costs which you identified above.

[Chemyst]

I had a recent conversation with Brian where we discussed the topic of Fulfilment by Amazon. He brought it up and explained his thinking. I don't want to share the details of a private conversation but it was quite obvious to me that he had been interested in the idea, done his due diligence, weighed up the benefits of the service against the costs, and found that overall it wasn't worthwhile.

That may well be, the last time I discussed it with him was around the time of the blog post I linked to (mid-2010).

[fabiob82]

I love the Goulets and I believe their company is great for the community. It teaches a lot of the basics to the new and returning users, what is essential to keep the fountain pen users around, forming communities. Some people might say they only touch basic subjects and that it doesn't matter to them, but would you want to be in a dying hobby? I like how new ink brands keep showing up, it is a niche market that might be still going strong in some way. Maybe we can survive like the audio vinyl market or even better.

I understand why he was touching this subject, but I think that he is biased in his opinion, because he wants to mantain good relations with the brands that are easily undercut, like Pelikan and the Japanese ones. I believe a lot of people would pay a little extra to keep him in business and have a better service, but with those pens we are actually paying the brands a huge amount of money, to sustain their visions that some products are better marketed if they products are seen as premium, or better than they actually are. I can understand that a $20 Prera would have to cost $30 because the brand has to spend a lot more to get the product in that market. But if the brand decides it must cost $40, they are at fault for not realizing that people would rather order from overseas, and paying the American price would be like being scammed. I doubt that Pilot makes the same Profit from a Prera sold in Japan as they do when they sell one in America. They probably sell a lot more in Japan and profit less from each sell. That means they could lower their profit in America even if they sell less pens, at least they would keep retailers around trying to get these pens popular and maybe they would expand the market.

What will happen if Goulet, Anderson and the other retailers (both brick and mortars and e-commerce) die is that there will be less Americans talking about pens, getting interested in them, acquiring new members for the community, and Pilot will have to rely more and more on the healthiness of the fountain pen community of Japan and the other countries that they manage to keep selling pens. I doubt we will have a lot of new users if we have to tell them they should learn how to use Rakuten or Amazon to acquire a cool pen. It can be very confusing, specially Amazon that have poor item descriptions and a lot of different sellers that make it hard to pick from. People would be much happier buying from a website that does a lot of effort to show you the product and talk about them. This is a hobby to a lot of us, and hobbies must be fun to get into.

That is my opinion, I doubt Brian would be complaining about Pilot price strategy, we all know they have no reason whatsoever to raise a $10 Iroshizuku in Japan to $28 other than greed, artificial "premium market" creation and so on. A lot of the inks sold in the US are imported from Europe and they never have to triple the price. Most of the times they are nowhere near double the price, but very reasonably priced, maybe 10%-30% higher than the street price in Europe. But Brian couldn't touch this subject without hurting his ties with these companies, unless he was open to stop dealing with them until they do something about it.

[TSherbs]

I like Goulet Pens. I have bought from them 3 times now. As far as recycling the ink sample bottles, that is simple. I give away the sample that is left, if I plan to buy that ink. Or if the sample didn't work for me, I give that away too. Those bottles could come in handy for things in the future, for a lot of little items. I won't be throwing those little bottles away, so they won't go in the trash dump!

Yes, I reuse mine for things like storing nibs. But they are too small for most other things, and, for example, the one year that I did InkDrop I couldn't make use of the majority of sample bottles that ended up in my desk drawers. Unless they are burned (toxic process, likely), they will one day end up in the ground or floating in the ocean one way or another.

[TSherbs]

So much of this discussion has been about Japanese more expensive pens. I really don't care because I don't buy them. I am sure that retailers drop (and add: gouletpens.com has added brands over this past year or so) certain brands from their sales offerings for all sorts of reasons; it's just part of the market flux. My price differential for going to more risky vendors is about 10%. If something is over 10% less somewhere else, then, all other things being equal, I go somewhere else, especially if it is a vendor whom I have purchased from before and the sale and delivery went smoothly. But I also care about packaging, and I don't just go to multiple vendors to save a few dollars if I also know that I will be getting three boxed packages with a lot of plastic packing in each: I will try to combine my orders so that the packaging is reduced. But this, too, has a price point differential determiner, say 20%. At a certain point I feel like someone is taking advantage of me and charging well over an otherwise "going rate". And I don't feel any particular loyalty to any one vendor or country: all persons and citizens of humanity deserve respect and compassion. I don't "buy American" (I am in America). And I certainly don't hold anything against a business model like MassDrop. They are not committing a crime, nor anything unethical or dubious or injurious. I participate in local farm group-purchases and as a result have decreased my purchases from the area supermarkets. That someone is organizing and promoting this alternative food purchase stream is entirely legitimate and ethical. Group buys are fabulous alternatives in a free market (admittedly, not always cost-effective nor equally valued by other consumers in the area). This is all about free-er choice and consumer empowerment.

[Dragonmaster Lou]

Similar to TSherbs, my rule of thumb is that I'm willing to pay up to 20% more for something from a domestic retailer as opposed to importing it from overseas somewhere. I figure that 20% markup should be enough to cover the various importation issues and I figure it's worth it so that if I have a problem that requires warranty service or a return, I can ship to a domestic retailer/distributor/repair center instead of having to ship it back to the country of origin. A perfect case for this is when I bought my Pilot Custom 823. I looked at a couple of Japanese sellers and they were not significantly less expensive than the domestic (i.e. American) seller I chose was selling it for, especially as this particular seller had a discount code I could use. In that case, the difference in price was right about at that 20% threshold. However, in the case of other pens, like the Platinum #3776 Century and the Pilot Custom 74, the markup is about 100% over the Japanese price, and that is just a ridiculous markup.

Also, any claims that the insane markup is purely due to legal and other importation issues ring hollow given the case of the Pilot Metropolitan. In the US, you can find the Metropolitan for anywhere from $12-$15 or so, depending on where you look. However, its Japanese equivalent, the Pilot Cocoon, goes for around $22-$30 or so on Amazon, making the Japanese version more expensive. There certainly appears to be some serious shenanigans going on with Pilot's pricing, whether they're using the Metropolitan as some sort of loss-leader or they really don't need the insane markups seen on their other pen models.

[Sailor Kenshin]

That is my opinion, I doubt Brian would be complaining about Pilot price strategy, we all know they have no reason whatsoever to raise a $10 Iroshizuku in Japan to $28 other than greed, artificial "premium market" creation and so on.




No. We don't all 'know' that, by far.

[Hawk]

Chemyst, thank you for the peneconomics.com link in your post.
Jd16, your blog articles (the ones I have read) are great. I have to bookmark your site.

[rgperedo]

First of all if your major gripe with Goulet is the amount of plastic they use then you're really reaching for an excuse. I buy from several places and a lot of times, especially if it's an expensive pen I prefer to buy from Goulet or other reputable dealer including the Fountain Pen Hospital here in NY. As far as the "waste" they ship so your products arrive safely, you can recycle and reuse them yourselves, which is what I end up doing with the boxes and packaging supplies I receive from any online retailers I order from. There are things which I don't mind buying elsewhere knowing I get it for much cheaper, but if I'm buying a $200+ pen I'm not risking the $20 savings I get, because if I have an issue it'll be a huge pain in the ass to re-send things back to Japan and hope they return. Are there reputable Japanese dealers? Of course, but I am already comfortable with the ones here. I don't always think the absolute cheapest price is the best, peace of mind is important as well. Ordering from the few reputable places in the community is best for me. Brian Goulet isn't the end all be all, but what he is very active in the community and that counts for something, at least to me.

[TSherbs]

First of all if your major gripe with Goulet is the amount of plastic they use then you're really reaching for an excuse.

"Excuse" for what, exactly? You might not care about that, but others do. I respect your value list even though I would never consider spending $200+ on any pen, regardless of the seller.

Reduction of production of non-biodegradable materials is an important value for some people. No matter how small. Like kind acts to other persons: the value is exercised on a small scale.

[fountainpenkid]

First of all if your major gripe with Goulet is the amount of plastic they use then you're really reaching for an excuse.

"Excuse" for what, exactly? You might not care about that, but others do. I respect your value list even though I would never consider spending $200+ on any pen, regardless of the seller.

Reduction of production of non-biodegradable materials is an important value for some people. No matter how small. Like kind acts to other persons: the value is exercised on a small scale.

Agreed. While the impact of one small company's behavior is small, it does have significance, especially from a cultural perspective. I have ordered from them a few times, but after this discussion, I am done buying from them unless I see a significant change in their behavior.

[mhosea]

Wow. With all that negativity you guys are inspiring me to make my next purchase of ink be from Goulet Pens, not that it's likely to be soon (looks at ink cabinet--yeah, Brian probably shouldn't get his hopes up). A thread about how evil guns were on this forum some months back inspired me to get my concealed carry permit, not that I intend to start carrying, but getting back into shooting after 30 years sure has been a blast. Good times.

I'm probably done with samples at this point, but I keep and reuse all my sample vials. I also keep and reuse all my packing materials. I don't remember anything beyond-the-pale with Goulet packing, just bubble wrap and plastic wrap, nothing excessive, just bound together instead of tossed in loosely as other vendors sometimes do. Does Goulet use a lot of styrofoam packing peanuts? I can't remember. I don't like styrofoam packing peanuts, but the cornstarch ones are OK.

[rgperedo]

First of all if your major gripe with Goulet is the amount of plastic they use then you're really reaching for an excuse.

"Excuse" for what, exactly? You might not care about that, but others do. I respect your value list even though I would never consider spending $200+ on any pen, regardless of the seller.

Reduction of production of non-biodegradable materials is an important value for some people. No matter how small. Like kind acts to other persons: the value is exercised on a small scale.

Don't just pick one line from what I wrote without at least commenting on the rest because you're taking what I wrote out of context. After writing what you quoted me on I also wrote this:

"you can recycle and reuse them yourselves, which is what I end up doing with the boxes and packaging supplies I receive from any online retailers I order from"

So you can always recycle and reuse the materials they, and every single online retailer (not just fountain pens) uses to ship you your products. For me the packaging can be excessive, but I reuse it myself and recycle it so it doesn't deter me from purchasing from them.

[Miss Fountain Pen]

First of all if your major gripe with Goulet is the amount of plastic they use then you're really reaching for an excuse.

"Excuse" for what, exactly? You might not care about that, but others do. I respect your value list even though I would never consider spending $200+ on any pen, regardless of the seller.

Reduction of production of non-biodegradable materials is an important value for some people. No matter how small. Like kind acts to other persons: the value is exercised on a small scale.

I agree with you. I'm not necessarily saying that Goulet does or doesn't overpackage: I've only ordered from them once, and I quite honestly don't remember what the packaging was like. But one of Goulet's marketing points is that their packaging is super secure. I'm sure this "super secure" packaging attracts some customers. Might that mean that they overpackage? Very possible (though once again, I've only ordered from them once, and I don't remember what the packaging was like). Well then, it seems only reasonable that they should lose some customers on the grounds of overpackaging. That's how the market sends the signal that maybe it's time to change this particular aspect of their business. What else could/should the customers do? Organize a protest in front of their offices and cry "bubble wrap is murder"? :p

[TSherbs]

Don't just pick one line from what I wrote without at least commenting on the rest because you're taking what I wrote out of context. After writing what you quoted me on I also wrote this:

"you can recycle and reuse them yourselves, which is what I end up doing with the boxes and packaging supplies I receive from any online retailers I order from"

I know you did also write this. I just wanted to know what "excuse" you thought I was making. So, let me ask again (since you didn't answer my question, and which was why I excerpted to keep a focus on what I was asking), what "excuse" is it to be concerned about unrecyclable packing materials or the reduction even of the manufacturing and distribution of plastic?

I am excerpting you again because I have a very specific question about the most critical part of your initial statement, not because I am ignoring your other points or trying to misrepresent you. I just would like some clarity on your meaning of your language--if you would care to give it.

[TSherbs]

Wow. With all that negativity you guys are inspiring me to make my next purchase of ink be from Goulet Pens, not that it's likely to be soon (looks at ink cabinet--yeah, Brian probably shouldn't get his hopes up). A thread about how evil guns were on this forum some months back inspired me to get my concealed carry permit, not that I intend to start carrying, but getting back into shooting after 30 years sure has been a blast. Good times.

I'm probably done with samples at this point, but I keep and reuse all my sample vials. I also keep and reuse all my packing materials. I don't remember anything beyond-the-pale with Goulet packing, just bubble wrap and plastic wrap, nothing excessive, just bound together instead of tossed in loosely as other vendors sometimes do. Does Goulet use a lot of styrofoam packing peanuts? I can't remember. I don't like styrofoam packing peanuts, but the cornstarch ones are OK.

There are paper products available that come from already recycled materials and work very well. "Tossed loosely" is, of course, negligent. Paper can even be composted, when done properly. Some people are farming worms with paper and converting the processed material (castings) into marvelous soil/garden additives. I do this in the summer, but have not yet converted indoor space to it (I live in a cold climate in a small house).

[rgperedo]

The "excuse" I was writing about was......... THE REASONS (EXCUSES) WHY SOME OF YOU WON'T SHOP AT GOULET. Also side note I never directly quoted you in my first reply in this thread. I was merely making a statement from a few of the responses already up.

No one has to shop at Goulet if it isn't convenient for them, but I think the extra packaging materials they use to ensure the items arrive in one piece is isn't the strongest reason why one shouldn't buy from them. This is of course my opinion. To each his own, if that is a deal breaker for you, oh well.

So shop there if you'd like, don't if you'd rather not that's all up to you. I will continue to shop there and anywhere else I please and I will deal with the excess shipping materials how I see fit.

I hope your worm farm thrives. All the best. Cheers.

[TSherbs]

Thanks. I do shop at gouletpens.com, although I have cut back. I don't consider any "reason" in not choosing a vendor to be "weak" because ALL the motivations are equally subjective and relative to the individual making the decision. Some reasons like "I don't want to support Virginians" I don't agree with, but I don't consider them "weak."

And I only brought this up as an example of "costs" and considerations that any vendor has to make in determining what business values they wish to project to their current clientele and potential clientele. It is not just pen tutorials, handwritten notes, live support chat, and promotional materials with logos that convey messages to the consumers. So does their approach to environmental waste.

This is a very large concern in my community, and my small town has mandated recycled waste/non-recycled waste ratios (by weight) that we must meet each year or we are levied a surcharge by the state. We are proud that every year we meet the standards and we keep increasing the amount of materials that are separated and recycled (we have no trash collection public service: the transfer station is where everyone meets cuz we have to face and handle all our own waste each week).

[KKay]

I like the extra protection they use in shipping my products. I save that bubble wrap and stuff. I use it to send OUT packages. So I guess you could say I do recycle, and it is not wasted. I put all that bubble wrap in a spare box. You never know when I will need it to send out something. I have never had to BUY bubble wrap either. So that is a win win for me. Since I am a newbie, I have watched a ton of the Goulet videos. Quite frankly they have been a huge help to me. Would I buy an expensive Japanese pen from them at these prices? No. But I have bought many other things from them. Part of that is a thank you. Part of it is because they do carry a lot of the things I like, and things I want to try.

[mhphoto]

I know the Goulets put a ton of work into their videos, but I don’t think the stuff they put out there is worth as much as they think it is. It seems like about 80% of every video they release is geared towards those just beginning to discover the hobby. And that’s great, honestly it is. I’m sure the Goulets are responsible for a great many people who bought their first fountain pens. But for people already have extensive knowledge and/or an extensive collection, the videos don’t really hold that much utility. For a beginner who might be worried about the slightest tine misalignment, the premium you pay when purchasing from the Goulets may be worth it considering their reputation for post-sale customer service.


But I know how to tune a nib, and I can fix any issues that may arrive in modern pens. I’m not going to send a pen out for repair unless it’s absolutely broken and being exchanged. So what incentive do I have to purchase from Brian when I can spend half that amount buying from a legitimate Japanese seller? I’m sure Brian’s a cracker jack fella, but his scare tactics and sob story aren’t cutting it.

[stub]

I’m sure Brian’s a cracker jack fella, but his scare tactics and sob story aren’t cutting it. [/SIZE]

I don't think this is a really fair characterization of Brian's answer. There may have been a bit of a mild pressure as in "if you all buy from Rakuten/ebay/Amazon/j-sub/ retailers like us won't be around to do all this other stuff on the up and up," etc. & co. but I think "scare tactics and sob story" are a step too far and a little reductive and unfair and generally an ungenerous reading of his intent and answer. He clearly was struggling to answer the question and trying to be careful or censor himself at times. He didn't have to answer the question at all so I guess he wanted to but I'd like to at least give him a little credit for trying to answer a tough question that comes up over and over again on the forums.

It is okay to dislike him or his answer or to pick it apart but I think it is only helpful to do so if one is fair and honest about it and not reductive.

I have no dog in this fight. I live closer to Japan than the US and buy Japanese pen stuff either here at crazy inflated prices (once in a blue moon) or when I pass through Japan.

[carlc]

This is a very large concern in my community, and my small town has mandated recycled waste/non-recycled waste ratios (by weight) that we must meet each year or we are levied a surcharge by the state. We are proud that every year we meet the standards and we keep increasing the amount of materials that are separated and recycled (we have no trash collection public service: the transfer station is where everyone meets cuz we have to face and handle all our own waste each week).

Rather off topic but I like the sound of your town!

[TSherbs]

.....
He clearly was struggling to answer the question and trying to be careful or censor himself at times. He didn't have to answer the question at all so I guess he wanted to but I'd like to at least give him a little credit for trying to answer a tough question that comes up over and over again on the forums.

Actually, I don't know why he chose to answer this in public, nor why he talked so long on it. I wonder if in the editing room he had second thoughts and debated cutting it out. I wonder if he consulted anyone else about it. In this case, I think that "less talk" would have been "more better." Generally speaking, discussing the pressures of business competition (as a retailer) does not garner sympathy or even loyalty with the customer, for obvious reasons. Consumers want to be empowered and feel that they are getting a good deal time and time again. Many of us part with our money reluctantly: it is money not being spent on food, shelter, family, health, or savings (the priorities in life).

[stub]

It sounds to me like it was mostly a question he choose to take to inform (not necessarily garner sympathy or loyalty) and explain a question that comes up often. It sounds like he took the question but then found himself, once the camera got rolling, a little lost in the weeds. Fine. He's human. I honestly can't understand other people's weird reading of this. It is fumbling, rambling and ham fisted at times but that doesn't lead me to read bad intentions into it. He didn't play it all right but he didn't get it all wrong either and it is a tough issue.

I think folks are being a little ungenerous with their reading of this. Was it ill-advised? Should it have been edited? I don't know. It sounds like he had a burning desire (an understandable impulse) to explain why a pen that is $127 on Raukten is $225 on his site (CH912 to pick a random example). I am sure he's up against a lot and I am sure he gets asked a lot why he can't get closer to those prices and how it is that they can sell for so cheap.

There are lots of bad people in the world. And some bad people in "TEH HOBBEH" but i am not yet convinced BG is one of them and this video didn't make me feel any different about him or his company. He tried to answer a knotty minefield of a question and didn't exactly knock it out of the park. Anyone who has been interviewed enough or lectured enough and faced hard questions can identity a little I think.

[jar]

True history is written in the middens. Future historians will bless those that use and throw away.

[Joseph B]

Too many times, I have thoroughly enjoyed browsing in a store only to return later to find it closed. I regretted that I hadn't purchased more there when it was open.

This is not to imply that I think Goulet Pens is in jeopardy in any way. But the way I look at it, if one uses and enjoys a service provided, one better vote with their business if they want it to remain viable and available to them.

[TSherbs]

True history is written in the middens. Future historians will bless those that use and throw away.

Two vast and trunkless legs of stone/ Stand in a desert....

[bluesea]

.....
He clearly was struggling to answer the question and trying to be careful or censor himself at times. He didn't have to answer the question at all so I guess he wanted to but I'd like to at least give him a little credit for trying to answer a tough question that comes up over and over again on the forums.

Actually, I don't know why he chose to answer this in public, nor why he talked so long on it. I wonder if in the editing room he had second thoughts and debated cutting it out. I wonder if he consulted anyone else about it. In this case, I think that "less talk" would have been "more better." Generally speaking, discussing the pressures of business competition (as a retailer) does not garner sympathy or even loyalty with the customer, for obvious reasons. Consumers want to be empowered and feel that they are getting a good deal time and time again. Many of us part with our money reluctantly: it is money not being spent on food, shelter, family, health, or savings (the priorities in life).


As a consumer I don't want to know my sellers personal opinions on these matters. It could very well lead to contempt on my part, and the loss of a seller I'd rather have continued doing business with.

BG, conduct business in a more professional and businesslike manner please. Have the common sense to realize the uses and limitations of a business blog, and how that should differ with a personal blog.

[stub]

I don't feel like he *merely* gave his opinion (though he did give it). Additionally we all pretty much know to take retailers blogs with a grain of salt and what their interests are. There are no doubt, however, folks who buy from GP who really want to know why this crazy gaping disparity is and truly wonder if industry insiders have any information that explains it, anything that helps us understand why a pen is $125 online from Japan, $180 in STORES in Japan and $225 in the US and god knows how much in Europe. It is perplexing.

He answer was not neat. It was not without some bias (which should be obvious to anyone older than age 6) and yes, an independent source is probably better for such information (like the pen economics blog) but I don't think he crossed any lines here and I don't think he was creepy or unprofessional about it, just maybe less than neat. I am sure folks ask him all the time. I don't begrudge him trying to explain it, I only think his answer could have been neater. I didn't see anything really unprofessional about it. To reduce his answer to "giving his opinion" and only that is, again, a bit reductive and inaccurate. I can imagine an answer that was merely opinion. I don't think that was what BG's answer was.





As a consumer I don't want to know my sellers personal opinions on these matters. It could very well lead to contempt on my part, and the loss of a seller I'd rather have continued doing business with.

BG, conduct business in a more professional and businesslike manner please. Have the common sense to realize the uses and limitations of a business blog, and how that should differ with a personal blog.

[Dragonmaster Lou]

That said, there's no one saying he has to carry the various pen brands that he gets shafted on (presumably due to manufacturer's/distributor's pricing requirements). I mean, if Pilot forces him to sell pens for double the cost they sell for in Japan, he probably could drop Pilot, or at least the ridiculously overpriced Pilot models. Some of them, like the Metropolitan, are actually better deals than what they sell for in Japan, and he could keep doing business with those. Now, I'm not sure how much of a mark-up there are on his other brands (Lamy, Faber Castell, Visconti, etc.) vs. their home countries, but assuming those have reasonable import-related markups, he could just focus on selling those.

Good business also means dropping products that are not profitable and focusing on those that are, after all.

[stub]

That said, there's no one saying he has to carry the various pen brands that he gets shafted on (presumably due to manufacturer's/distributor's pricing requirements). I mean, if Pilot forces him to sell pens for double the cost they sell for in Japan, he probably could drop Pilot, or at least the ridiculously overpriced Pilot models.

uh... he said as much in the video.

[stub]

Pro Tip

If you are going to take someone to task for something they said in a video Q & A:

ACTUALLY WATCH THE VIDEO AND CRITIQUE WHAT SOUND MOLECULES CAME OUT OF THE FACE HOLE.

[bluesea]

I don't feel like he *merely* gave his opinion (though he did give it). Additionally we all pretty much know to take retailers blogs with a grain of salt and what their interests are. There are no doubt, however, folks who buy from GP who really want to know why this crazy gaping disparity is and truly wonder if industry insiders have any information that explains it, anything that helps us understand why a pen is $125 online from Japan, $180 in STORES in Japan and $225 in the US and god knows how much in Europe. It is perplexing.

He answer was not neat. It was not without some bias (which should be obvious to anyone older than age 6) and yes, an independent source is probably better for such information (like the pen economics blog) but I don't think he crossed any lines here and I don't think he was creepy or unprofessional about it, just maybe less than neat. I am sure folks ask him all the time. I don't begrudge him trying to explain it, I only think his answer could have been neater. I didn't see anything really unprofessional about it. To reduce his answer to "giving his opinion" and only that is, again, a bit reductive and inaccurate. I can imagine an answer that was merely opinion. I don't think that was what BG's answer was.





As a consumer I don't want to know my sellers personal opinions on these matters. It could very well lead to contempt on my part, and the loss of a seller I'd rather have continued doing business with.

BG, conduct business in a more professional and businesslike manner please. Have the common sense to realize the uses and limitations of a business blog, and how that should differ with a personal blog.


My opinion is he lost perspective, got too personal. This possibly due to over immersion from commercialization of the cute couple with kid persona.

[Chazz]

I contacted pelikan to confirm Martenodena as a legit authorized retailer, but am lending to the devalue of pelikan brand? Probably...

Is the Pelikan "brand" determined by the quality of the product or by the excess that some consumers are willing to pay? In general, is it the consumers problem to "maintain" the "brand"?

The bit about not helping the community by not paying through the nose is amusing; I can assure you that those manufacturers are not thinking in terms of "helping the community" when they set their prices. Still, if you really want to help the community by unloading some of your money (for pens, of course), then just send me what you save when you pay below MSRP (which is always an arbitrary figure).

[Chazz]

Most online sellers in the U.S., Goulet Pens included, provide discounts many local brick and mortar sellers are unable to compete with. Where do you draw the line?

Good point. People are getting carried away in wailing for their favourite sellers and not looking at the bigger picture.

[SeminarianMike]

Wow I really created a thread and a half here! I hope people are enjoying this convo! I can't wait to watch Brian's q and a this week see if he has anymore feedback on this topic

[Terie_Benjamin]

As a consumer and a business owner, I'm going to shop around for whatever it is I'm buying. I ordered my platinum from japan as it was less than half price. I feel as long as I'm not buying from a company that is per say finding terrorists (etc) then I don't see the problem with it. I do like to support local businesses but if I can get the same product at 50% less then I'm going to. Just my 2 cents.

Sorry for any typos I'm on my phone

[Chazz]

This can't be good for pilot. Perfect example of what Brian spoke about today!

P.S. I have been in Japan a few times in the last few years. As far as I can tell, Pilot is doing just fine. So you and Brian can relax on that front.

[Flounder]

Most online sellers in the U.S., Goulet Pens included, provide discounts many local brick and mortar sellers are unable to compete with. Where do you draw the line?

Good point. People are getting carried away in wailing for their favourite sellers and not looking at the bigger picture.

In my case, Amazon. Amazon is where I draw the line. They are destroying economies and the social services that depend on them. 'Undercutting' is a loaded word, but one that I feel applies to Amazon. They are undercutting businesses that pay tax, to the detriment of all businesses and consumers in any given host economy Amazon parasites off.

I agree witha point made earlier in this thread; as a UK fper the Goulet pen store isn't really on my radar. BG's 'value added' POV is a bit of a mixed bag IMO - as with any retailer, what he says (and can't say) about the pens he sells (and his videos are only about the pens he sells) is coloured by his being their retailer. The Lamy 2000 'discussion' was a particularly ill-titled example, it was painful to watch.

I do think there is some 'value-added' argument validity to his store in the sense that he gives samples to reviewers like the PenHabit, who is in more of a position to voice opinions like "pen X is probably a better deal than this pen" or "these posting threads are a bit awkward" to give recent examples.

[Chazz]

Most online sellers in the U.S., Goulet Pens included, provide discounts many local brick and mortar sellers are unable to compete with. Where do you draw the line?

Good point. People are getting carried away in wailing for their favourite sellers and not looking at the bigger picture.

In my case, Amazon. Amazon is where I draw the line. They are destroying economies and the social services that depend on them. 'Undercutting' is a loaded word, but one that I feel applies to Amazon. They are undercutting businesses that pay tax, to the detriment of all businesses and consumers in any given host economy Amazon parasites off.

The bigger picture:

I buy a great deal from Amazon. When I do that:

(a) I support people who are selling on Amazon and their business. They presumably are paying taxes, using the money they earn to support families, etc.

(b) With careful choices, I usually save money over shopping in obvious places (e.g. the place down the road). I use the money saved in ways that contribute to the whole: I spend it on other retailers, and I see no reason to believe that they are less deserving of my money than any other retailers. Nor do I see any reason to believe that if I can buy X for, say, 5 dollars, I should instead spend 10 dollars because of some "parasite theory".

(c) Most important: Amazon pays taxes. It also benefits numerous businesses and consumers; you can certainly be sure that all those involved with Amazon are not in it simply to make the world a better place, or, as you might think, to screw others. So, on that basis, my guess is that Amazon will continue to thrive.

In the case of Goulet and his pens: If people feel that they are getting good value by paying the funny figure known as MSRP, because the Goulet chap gives them "added value", then good for them! But it is inappropriate for either Goulet or his customers to whinge about how others choose to spend---"save" in this context---their money.

[Chazz]

As a consumer and a business owner, I'm going to shop around for whatever it is I'm buying. I ordered my platinum from japan as it was less than half price. I feel as long as I'm not buying from a company that is per say finding terrorists (etc) then I don't see the problem with it. I do like to support local businesses but if I can get the same product at 50% less then I'm going to. Just my 2 cents.

Sorry for any typos I'm on my phone

That would be per se, which is Latin for ...

[Hawk]

I’m sure Brian’s a cracker jack fella, but his scare tactics and sob story aren’t cutting it. [/SIZE]

I don't think this is a really fair characterization of Brian's answer. There may have been a bit of a mild pressure as in "if you all buy from Rakuten/ebay/Amazon/j-sub/ retailers like us won't be around to do all this other stuff on the up and up," etc. & co. but I think "scare tactics and sob story" are a step too far and a little reductive and unfair and generally an ungenerous reading of his intent and answer. He clearly was struggling to answer the question and trying to be careful or censor himself at times. He didn't have to answer the question at all so I guess he wanted to but I'd like to at least give him a little credit for trying to answer a tough question that comes up over and over again on the forums.

It is okay to dislike him or his answer or to pick it apart but I think it is only helpful to do so if one is fair and honest about it and not reductive.

I have no dog in this fight. I live closer to Japan than the US and buy Japanese pen stuff either here at crazy inflated prices (once in a blue moon) or when I pass through Japan.

Well said.

[Hawk]

I contacted pelikan to confirm Martenodena as a legit authorized retailer, but am lending to the devalue of pelikan brand? Probably...

Is the Pelikan "brand" determined by the quality of the product or by the excess that some consumers are willing to pay? In general, is it the consumers problem to "maintain" the "brand"?

The bit about not helping the community by not paying through the nose is amusing; I can assure you that those manufacturers are not thinking in terms of "helping the community" when they set their prices. Still, if you really want to help the community by unloading some of your money (for pens, of course), then just send me what you save when you pay below MSRP (which is always an arbitrary figure).

I don't feel the consumer is buying to maintain the brand, maybe I'm wrong. In our family, we justify the price and purchase the pen because of its attributes i.e. visual appeal, how the pen writes (laying ink on the paper), filling system, how it feels, balance, quality of construction etc. Those things make me feel good when I pick up the pen, ink it and write with it. Everybody has their own standards/requirements that give them that feeling. Cost is a large factor.

[Hawk]

Wow I really created a thread and a half here! I hope people are enjoying this convo! I can't wait to watch Brian's q and a this week see if he has anymore feedback on this topic

You sure opened a can of worms. I'm glad you did. It has been a great ride even though some of the responses have been a bumpy ride, in my personal opinion.

[KKay]

There are NO fountain pen stores within a reasonable distance. It is a two hour drive or more, to get to a brick and mortar store. I have to buy all of my fountain pen stuff online. (even paper) So that is how a lot of people most likely get their products, unless you live in a bigger city. It is probably a good thing there is not a brick and mortar store where I live. I'd be more broke if there was one nearby...lol.

[Flounder]

Most online sellers in the U.S., Goulet Pens included, provide discounts many local brick and mortar sellers are unable to compete with. Where do you draw the line?

Good point. People are getting carried away in wailing for their favourite sellers and not looking at the bigger picture.

In my case, Amazon. Amazon is where I draw the line. They are destroying economies and the social services that depend on them. 'Undercutting' is a loaded word, but one that I feel applies to Amazon. They are undercutting businesses that pay tax, to the detriment of all businesses and consumers in any given host economy Amazon parasites off.

The bigger picture:

I buy a great deal from Amazon. When I do that:

(a) I support people who are selling on Amazon and their business. They presumably are paying taxes, using the money they earn to support families, etc.

(b) With careful choices, I usually save money over shopping in obvious places (e.g. the place down the road). I use the money saved in ways that contribute to the whole: I spend it on other retailers, and I see no reason to believe that they are less deserving of my money than any other retailers. Nor do I see any reason to believe that if I can buy X for, say, 5 dollars, I should instead spend 10 dollars because of some "parasite theory".

(c) Most important: Amazon pays taxes. It also benefits numerous businesses and consumers; you can certainly be sure that all those involved with Amazon are not in it simply to make the world a better place, or, as you might think, to screw others. So, on that basis, my guess is that Amazon will continue to thrive.

In the case of Goulet and his pens: If people feel that they are getting good value by paying the funny figure known as MSRP, because the Goulet chap gives them "added value", then good for them! But it is inappropriate for either Goulet or his customers to whinge about how others choose to spend---"save" in this context---their money.

What is this? A bot? Nice try Jeff!

[Chazz]

[
What is this? A bot? Nice try Jeff!

I'm not Jeff, whoever he is. And I suggest that you try and learn something from the points I have given; it will help you adjust better to reality.

[Dragonmaster Lou]

That said, there's no one saying he has to carry the various pen brands that he gets shafted on (presumably due to manufacturer's/distributor's pricing requirements). I mean, if Pilot forces him to sell pens for double the cost they sell for in Japan, he probably could drop Pilot, or at least the ridiculously overpriced Pilot models.

uh... he said as much in the video.

Guess I missed it... I listened to it in podcast form while driving to work, so I guess I wasn't paying full attention.

[Flounder]

Bezos-bot reported.

[brunico]

Bezos-bot reported.

I doubt a bot would know the difference between per se and some barbarism.

[TAYLORPUPPY]

This was a very good,well thought out response. However, the one thing that can't be taken out of context is when at an earlier time,he said he had no problem with putting mom & pop out of business. As there's was a dying business model. Now he's lamenting the loss of some sales. That's not such a big deal, but when you start throwing up in your customers faces what you're doing for them and how hard it is and whether or not it's with it to you to continue. That's where I draw the line

You know, it's all well and good to be anecdotal, and in my early comments I made mention that I thought I remembered Mr. Goulet discussing as much in a general sense. However, you have just attributed to him the statement that he had "no problem with putting mom and pop out of business". I'd really like a source for that, because otherwise it is a pretty damning statement without any evidence whatsoever. I'm happy to form opinions based on what someone says, but not on what someone else says they said.

Please link to a source.

I want to go on record here saying this was not a direct quote...

Well... I am not certain why you are mentioning this when I was referring to TaylorPuppy's message, but it is as I recall it, as well: a non-malicious reference by Brian Goulet as to the current state of brick stores a few years ago. He was acknowledging that online stores had certain financial advantages, *not* that it was his aim to put them out of business, which seemed implied in TaylorPuppy's 'quote'. I don't want to bog down *this* discussion on just a technicality, so I'll just move on from here.

Jon, I know you want me to engage with you but j just don't feel like it. Go look for some one else to troll. You're just a poor old loser.

[Miss Fountain Pen]

Jon, I know you want me to engage with you but j just don't feel like it. Go look for some one else to troll. You're just a poor old loser.

Wow...

[Miss Fountain Pen]

Did anyone watch Brian and Rachel's video on Pilot (posted on Friday)? It was interesting. They mentioned they were thinking about carrying the Namiki line, but I think that's not such a good idea. They'd be competing with Mottishaw, when Mottishaw will tune your nib and also give you free shipping (because the pens are expensive enough). Goulet doesn't really strike me as competitive for such high-end pens. Visconti is a bit of a different story because Mottishaw doesn't carry the brand (he only seems to sell pens with solid gold nibs).

Actually, I was looking at the Namiki Nippon Art series (that's Namiki's low-end maki-e), and I may buy one in the next few moths. (I said "may" not "will." ;)) If I do, I'll almost certainly order from Mottishaw because, well, he'd tune the nib for me! :) I'd consider other sellers only if they offered me a much better deal (and Goulet wouldn't).

(It occurs to me that with all this troll calling, someone might accuse me of being a nibs.com troll. But I swear they didn't pay me anything!!! :p)

[Marsilius]

S


(It occurs to me that with all this troll calling, someone might accuse me of being a nibs.com troll. But I swear they didn't pay me anything!!! :p)

A clever ruse indeed Mr. M., a clever ruse indeed! :)

[Hawk]

"Jon, I know you want me to engage with you but j just don't feel like it. Go look for some one else to troll. You're just a poor old loser."

Gotta have the last word, TAYLORPUPPY....

[TSherbs]

somebody, close this thread please

[SeminarianMike]

Agreed this thread has far surpassed the discussion I intended it needs deleted

[Hawk]

Agreed this thread has far surpassed the discussion I intended it needs deleted

Mabe the administrator can close the thread for you.

[Miss Fountain Pen]

S


(It occurs to me that with all this troll calling, someone might accuse me of being a nibs.com troll. But I swear they didn't pay me anything!!! :p)

A clever ruse indeed Mr. M., a clever ruse indeed! :)

:p :p :p

[sweetnightingale]

Agreed this thread has far surpassed the discussion I intended it needs deleted

Mabe the administrator can close the thread for you.

Spell much, Dear? :)

Everyone, I get to tease Hawk with no guilt. After all, he is my husband. :D

[Jon Szanto]

Jon, I know you want me to engage with you but j just don't feel like it. Go look for some one else to troll. You're just a poor old loser.

Well, I'm just home from a couple days at the LA Pen Show and, yep, I'm a little poorer (but happy about some new pens!) for the experience. Other than that, well, ok, whatever.

[sweetnightingale]

Jon - Sounds like you enjoyed the show. :) So, give over! What awesome finds did you run across and take advantage of?

[Jon Szanto]

Jon - Sounds like you enjoyed the show. :) So, give over! What awesome finds did you run across and take advantage of?

I drove home this afternoon (not long, about 2 hours) and I'm a little under the weather and have to prep for an early morning rehearsal. I took a lot of pics and will post a full show report in a day or so. Nothing better than being in a room with a billion pens.

How about a teaser: who wouldn't like a pen so big that it carries a smaller pen in a compartment inside the barrel? :)


http://i.imgur.com/4drJZWSh.jpg

[velo]

Agreed this thread has far surpassed the discussion I intended it needs deleted

No. Let's not go deleting threads with an interesting discussion just because certain posters are emotionally immature. Censor the culprits not the community.

[rpsyed]

Jon - Sounds like you enjoyed the show. :) So, give over! What awesome finds did you run across and take advantage of?

I drove home this afternoon (not long, about 2 hours) and I'm a little under the weather and have to prep for an early morning rehearsal. I took a lot of pics and will post a full show report in a day or so. Nothing better than being in a room with a billion pens.

How about a teaser: who wouldn't like a pen so big that it carries a smaller pen in a compartment inside the barrel? :)


http://i.imgur.com/4drJZWSh.jpg

Did you get a Bexley Ultra Giant?! Oh man, I've been trying to find even one of the regular Bexley Giants for months and have, sadly, come to the conclusion that it isn't going to happen.

[Jon Szanto]

Did you get a Bexley Ultra Giant?! Oh man, I've been trying to find even one of the regular Bexley Giants for months and have, sadly, come to the conclusion that it isn't going to happen.

Ha! TBH, I didn't even get the name or manufacturer of this pen (it's vintage). The fellow holding it was the person taking Syd Saperstein's place at the Wahl-Eversharp table, and I think he also had pens of his own. I am sorry I was in a rush and did not get his name, but will attempt to before my full report. He held up that big pen, unscrewed the blind cap, and out popped that orange one!

[Marsilius]

Did you get a Bexley Ultra Giant?! Oh man, I've been trying to find even one of the regular Bexley Giants for months and have, sadly, come to the conclusion that it isn't going to happen.

Ha! TBH, I didn't even get the name or manufacturer of this pen (it's vintage). The fellow holding it was the person taking Syd Saperstein's place at the Wahl-Eversharp table, and I think he also had pens of his own. I am sorry I was in a rush and did not get his name, but will attempt to before my full report. He held up that big pen, unscrewed the blind cap, and out popped that orange one!

Little baby pens!

[rpsyed]

Did you get a Bexley Ultra Giant?! Oh man, I've been trying to find even one of the regular Bexley Giants for months and have, sadly, come to the conclusion that it isn't going to happen.

Ha! TBH, I didn't even get the name or manufacturer of this pen (it's vintage). The fellow holding it was the person taking Syd Saperstein's place at the Wahl-Eversharp table, and I think he also had pens of his own. I am sorry I was in a rush and did not get his name, but will attempt to before my full report. He held up that big pen, unscrewed the blind cap, and out popped that orange one!
Ahh, I see. There's two pens it could be. The Parker Ultra Giant (http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/143096-parker-ultra-giant/) which is super rare, and the ones for sale have been like $20,000+. Parker made a Parker Giant as well, which goes for like $800-$2000. The Parker Giants are a little more common -- I think David Nishimura has one or two for sale on his website.

I think it '90s or early '00s, Bexley made reproduction Bexley Giants and a Bexley Ultra Giant. I think it was a could hundred Bexley Giants made, and 25 Bexley Ultra Giants.

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/21041/lot/1031/ -- There's a link to a Bexley Ultra Giant auction, it looks like it says Ohio on the imprint so I thought it was the Bexley but I believe a Parker Ultra Giant was once displayed at a pen show.

I'm sure others know much more about both versions of the pen though and can correct me if I'm wrong.

edit: If you scroll down on this page, it looks like Jonathan Steinberg has one for sale (http://vintagepen.com/specoff.htm) ... for $24,500.

[Jon Szanto]

I think it '90s or early '00s, Bexley made reproduction Bexley Giants and a Bexley Ultra Giant. I think it was a could hundred Bexley Giants made, and 25 Bexley Ultra Giants.


Hehe, you win the prize! I just pulled up the image editor and zoomed in...

23273

[migo984]

Those pens are ridiculous. Big pens, small ..................... notebook

[Jon Szanto]

Those pens are ridiculous. Big pens, small ..................... notebook

Ha! Yeah, I often look around the room at a pen show and think "There's an awful lot of compensation going on around here..."

[Marsilius]

Com PEN sation. I get it!

[sweetnightingale]

Jon - Sorry to hear you're under the weather. Feel better soon.

Wowza! That's one heck of a big pen. I've honestly never seen one so HUGE!

Com-PEN-sation...Hahahahaha. :)

[Crazyorange]

I think it '90s or early '00s, Bexley made reproduction Bexley Giants and a Bexley Ultra Giant. I think it was a could hundred Bexley Giants made, and 25 Bexley Ultra Giants.


Hehe, you win the prize! I just pulled up the image editor and zoomed in...

23273

So cool Jon. Looking forward to your pics.

[eriquito]

Hello All!

Look at that! It appears we are all easily led off topic by pen pictures =) There's hope for us!

I've been contacted by many who say that this thread has run its course and should be closed.

I agree... so I'll close this thread and we can all meet up again in Jon's much anticipated LA Pen Show report.

WooHoo!

=) Eric