What should be the goal of education?

[jar]

When I was growing up all of life was education, and educating went on night and day, weekday and weekends, 24/7, 365 and even 366 every four years or so.

School was different; it was a place to help develop socialization and to share limited resources and specialized knowledge.

The best part about my education and that of my brothers and sisters was that we simply didn't know we were being educated. Learning was just living and living was constantly learning.

When we were little there was always some quiet time before going to bed when we got to talk about what new things we saw or did each day. Often it was a bug or a plant or an unusual event but each led us into a discussion about a new and different subject that WE discovered. Sometimes Mom or more often Dad would ask us "What happened that day that made us make a choice?" Why did we do something rather than some other thing?

A favorite rainy day pastime was with an encyclopedia where as we searched through the pages looking for butterflies we came across bears and bears led us to geography of where bears lived and geography led us to history and history led us to changes in where we lived and changes in where we lived led to creation of technology and infrastructure to supply us where we lived and that led to changes in politics which led to changes in social structure which ...

Serendipity. We learned things we never thought we wanted or needed to learn because the medium exposed us to different pathways. Two roads diverged in a yellow wood ...


http://www.fototime.com/2EF091AFF281C87/medium800.jpg



Trips back then were always an adventure. The war had just ended and so things like car tires or spare parts were still scarce and with no Interstate Highways trips meant two lanes and stop lights. But it also meant totally different venues and little towns and the diner that would have a counter with stools so tall I had to help the little kids up and tables where the big folk could sit and talk and a fabulous new Wurlitzer machine with lights and tubes with bubbles and pages and pages of song names and each kid got to pick out a song and the littlest always went first and at the end of the song all the little kids would climb down from the stools and go watch the magic of the arm take the record off the spindle and put it away and then everything turn until it grabbed another record and put it on the turntable and it was always the right song and how did it know which record to pick and ...

Serendipity. We learned things we never thought we wanted or needed to learn because the medium exposed us to different pathways.

The best way to learn is when you don't know you are learning.

The lessons learned way back then were really those that have been the greatest use to me over the years; big looks out for little, knowledge is to be shared and not hoarded, the answers should not be given but help along the path to discovering the answer is essential, everywhere you look, everything you do, is a lesson, mistakes are great, they are how you learn, make as many mistakes as you can but try to only make NEW mistakes.

The really important lesson was that learning is not hard once you learn how to learn, it's not something difficult and it is fun.

But today the goal of education, particularly in the US (I can't speak about other countries or cultures) seems totally different. Today the goal seems to be to prepare folk for a job. It is not how to prepare for life or for learning but rather how to become another brick in the wall. It's not "how to learn new stuff" but rather "This is what you need to learn"; not "How to learn" but rather "What to learn". Teachers get fired for teaching material the parents don't want the kids to learn.

Today, that wandering path through the encyclopedia would never happen, if you type in "butterflies" you go straight to butterflies with no chance to wander off down the bear path.

That seems to produce a steady stream of workers, automatons, and is good for business. But is that what the goal of education should be for our nation?

[BCDDiggler]

Well this is a bit of a divisive point in my social circle...

On one hand education must enable a person to "function" in society. Certain skill sets could be considered essential to creating a cohesive geo-poli graphic society. Language, history, values; in order to survive these are keystone things that a group of people, a nation, must share. And the complexities of our lives dictated larger and larger groups to perpetuate this paradigm.

On the other hand I have always held some faith in the proverb about giving a man to fish versus teaching a man to fish. The teachers that I know have felt constrained at times by the limitations of the system and empowered by modern technology and the accessibility of MOST of their students to access the internet. Where possible they elect to undertake the responsibility and tasks to allow their students more freedom to have fun learning; an essay does not have to be on these 3 books - it can be on any book (permission pending).

Ted(x) talks are prevalent on YouTube. Homeschooling. Education. You will find articles in newspapers, journals, and articles all debating and extolling the virtues of each. Preparatory programs, self guided programs.

The fact of the matter is, from my perspective, we're just too busy for both. School, which has been cut down to (arguably below) essentials is mandated to prepare citizens for society. As for education I would say that self study is getting easier - wikipedia with its endless links, forums with peer power, online libraries... etc... etc.... Now it is a question of finding the time. And the motivation. And when people can buy fish sticks at the store why bother to learn how to fish, how to make hook, and line, and rod? All you need is a job, to make money...

So here's my 2 cents, a little gas for the fire. I'm right, and maybe I'm wrong. And perhaps we just need a paradigm shift?

BCD

[bluesea]

The U.S. Is finding it more profitable poaching higher level college educated immigrants, than continuing to subsidize that level of education for its citizens as has post WW2. This is the world we live in.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I can totally appreciate Jar's topic. I was brought up in the 70s UK. My father, though ex-Navy and later a medical scientist was, at heart, an artist. He taught me not just to look at the world but to see it. However, the danger, as I discovered much later, is that this can lead to a kind of dilettantism.

At school we were largely taught method above fact, although facts were important too.

Today I am employed as a member of a University staff working mainly on research. Given that I have no tertiary education this may be somewhat surprising to those who are told that they must have a degree to get a job. True I am not pulling in massive paychecks, but I am content doing what I do, and I think I do it well. Interestingly enough my manager hired me on the basis that they considered my inquisitive nature (thanks Dad!) to be a desirable asset for this research position over and above my formal education (such that it is).

As an aside, in the 90s, working in medical sciences during the advent of subject-specific degrees, it was noticeable how many of the new graduates with their shiny degrees came to work in healthcare without the slightest clue about the working environment, the very real responsibility one has to the patient, how to interact with other adults, or even the fact that they were no longer in the classroom/lab but were now in the real world where protocols reigned and expectations were demanded. Some failed to adapt.

I always got the feeling that education has narrowed in my lifetime alone. Conversations with my father, and indeed with many of my peers (from the same formative environment), ranged broadly and creatively across many subjects. Today I miss those type of conversations.

[Scrawler]

When asked why we learned "useless" subjects like Latin, the headmaster at my last grammar school told us that not go to school to learn how to get a job, but that by being educated we had a better probability of having an enjoyable and fulfilling life. The more you know, the more you are able to appreciate and enjoy life. The more things we would be able to find to understand and appreciate.

[bluesea]

When asked why we learned "useless" subjects like Latin, the headmaster at my last grammar school told us that not go to school to learn how to get a job, but that by being educated we had a better probability of having an enjoyable and fulfilling life. The more you know, the more you are able to appreciate and enjoy life. The more things we would be able to find to understand and appreciate.



That reminds of how in college, probably in polsc 101 :D, we discussed the *eventual* implementation of the 30 hr work week. The future for humanity looked pretty bright back then.

[RNHC]

To make the world a better place and that starts by making your own life better.

[bluesea]

Part of the goal of education is to preserve and allow theoretically, the wholesome evolution of the society in which it exists.

[jar]

In a democracy, even a representative democracy, how important is it for the voter to be both informed and capable of making critical evidence based decisions?

[bluesea]

In a democracy, even a representative democracy, how important is it for the voter to be both informed and capable of making critical evidence based decisions?


Its absolutely essential. Without it you have an out of control Wall Street, Military Industrial Complex, the specter of a Trump presidency etcetera, etcetera.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

In a democracy, even a representative democracy, how important is it for the voter to be both informed and capable of making critical evidence based decisions?

Has it ever been the case that voter was thus endowed?

[bluesea]

In a democracy, even a representative democracy, how important is it for the voter to be both informed and capable of making critical evidence based decisions?

Has it ever been the case that voter was thus endowed?


It seemed society was moving in that direction for a short while.

[jar]

In a democracy, even a representative democracy, how important is it for the voter to be both informed and capable of making critical evidence based decisions?

Has it ever been the case that voter was thus endowed?

That is of course simply an irrelevant comment.

The question was "In a democracy, even a representative democracy, how important is it for the voter to be both informed and capable of making critical evidence based decisions?"

[TAYLORPUPPY]

Its not necessary to be informed or educated. The government will provide for our needs.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

In a democracy, even a representative democracy, how important is it for the voter to be both informed and capable of making critical evidence based decisions?

Has it ever been the case that voter was thus endowed?

That is of course simply an irrelevant comment.

The question was "In a democracy, even a representative democracy, how important is it for the voter to be both informed and capable of making critical evidence based decisions?"


If I had been standing right in front of you I would have made the exact same comment.


Q: In a democracy, even a representative democracy, how important is it for the voter to be both informed and capable of making critical evidence based decisions?

A: I don't know. Has it ever happened? If it has, did it make any difference?


Is that clearer now?

[jar]

In a democracy, even a representative democracy, how important is it for the voter to be both informed and capable of making critical evidence based decisions?

Has it ever been the case that voter was thus endowed?

That is of course simply an irrelevant comment.

The question was "In a democracy, even a representative democracy, how important is it for the voter to be both informed and capable of making critical evidence based decisions?"


If I had been standing right in front of you I would have made the exact same comment.


Q: In a democracy, even a representative democracy, how important is it for the voter to be both informed and capable of making critical evidence based decisions?

A: I don't know. Has it ever happened? If it has, did it make any difference?


Is that clearer now?

Only that the response is still irrelevant.

[RNHC]

Its not necessary to be informed or educated. The government will provide for our needs.

I believe (and hope) that you are being sarcastic since our government is a "government of the people, by the people, for the people..." People are responsible to be informed and educated in order to better rule ourselves.

[RNHC]

In a democracy, even a representative democracy, how important is it for the voter to be both informed and capable of making critical evidence based decisions?

Has it ever been the case that voter was thus endowed?

No, as you can see in our governmental structure. Just look at our election process. Why do we still need Electoral College? Admittedly, an average person of that era were probably not educated nor knowledgeable of worldly affairs enough to make an informed decision but is that so different from how it is now?

[bluesea]

Its not necessary to be informed or educated. The government will provide for our needs.

I believe (and hope) that you are being sarcastic since our government is a "government of the people, by the people, for the people..." People are responsible to be informed and educated in order to better rule ourselves.


Sorry I think the situation in the U.S. has progressed far enough, to call that language hopefully poetic and contemporarily quite inaccurate.

[RNHC]

Sorry I think the situation in the U.S. has progressed far enough, to call that language hopefully poetic and contemporarily quite inaccurate.

Perhaps but we can always strive for the ideal. Honest Abe sure had a way with words.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

In a democracy, even a representative democracy, how important is it for the voter to be both informed and capable of making critical evidence based decisions?

Has it ever been the case that voter was thus endowed?

That is of course simply an irrelevant comment.

The question was "In a democracy, even a representative democracy, how important is it for the voter to be both informed and capable of making critical evidence based decisions?"


If I had been standing right in front of you I would have made the exact same comment.


Q: In a democracy, even a representative democracy, how important is it for the voter to be both informed and capable of making critical evidence based decisions?

A: I don't know. Has it ever happened? If it has, did it make any difference?


Is that clearer now?

Only that the response is still irrelevant.




My answer to your question is transparent. It is followed by two additional questions whose purpose is to elicit data that may enable me to offer a more informed answer.

[bluesea]

In a democracy, even a representative democracy, how important is it for the voter to be both informed and capable of making critical evidence based decisions?

Has it ever been the case that voter was thus endowed?

No, as you can see in our governmental structure. Just look at our election process. Why do we still need Electoral College? Admittedly, an average person of that era were probably not educated nor knowledgeable of worldly affairs enough to make an informed decision but is that so different from how it is now?


The education system has been slowly progressing to educate that "average person" to take up the task, but we have been in a period of regression for at least 25 years. The system is going backwards, in ways that will take decades to reverse if at all.

[RandyA1983]

It seems to me that a student should be interested in gaining knowledge.

[Cookedj]

Some are, others do exactly what they need to graduate and are okay with being ignorant.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX78iKhInsc

I've promoted this speaker a few times. He is dead now, but his message is in my opinion spot on and remains so.

[RandyA1983]

I think the goal of learning is the same for everyone - it's getting all the necessary knowledge in a particular area. If it concerns the legal field, then the student should be interested in studying new laws, all specific branches of jurisprudence, etc., if it concerns medical school. Then the student should, first of all, find out how to prepare for the med school interview (https://www.trinityschoolofmedicine.org/blog/guide-to-medical-school-interviews). To successfully pass it and enter the school. This applies to absolutely any school or university. A student or a student should understand that he needs education and is interested in it.

[dneal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX78iKhInsc

I've promoted this speaker a few times. He is dead now, but his message is in my opinion spot on and remains so.

Indeed. Based on the frequent applause, I suspect there are very few teachers (or perhaps education administrators with advanced degrees in "education") in the audience.

Thank you for sharing the video.

[TSherbs]

"The purpose of education"?

Compliance. Very few families want me to send home their children more independent of thought, will, belief, and behavior than when they dropped them off in the morning.

But I try to disappoint in that regard.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Good for you!

The chap in the video talks a bit about how education systems are about conformity and not individuality.

[TSherbs]

Good for you!

The chap in the video talks a bit about how education systems are about conformity and not individuality.

I know that Robinson talk well. We even had it shown to us as part of faculty training.

[kazoolaw]

"The purpose of education"?

Compliance. Very few families want me to send home their children more independent of thought, will, belief, and behavior than when they dropped them off in the morning.

But I try to disappoint in that regard.

Then you are the first liberal teacher to do that with conservative students.

[TSherbs]

Some are, others do exactly what they need to graduate and are okay with being ignorant.

These generalizations apply equally to adults, no? Just substitute "please an employer" for "graduate" and you pretty well some up most of working life. One would hope that most adults would be interested in learning and growth, but we all know actually what a mixture of motivations and intensities of motivations exists out there.

[welch]

Let knowledge grow from more to more; and so be human life enriched.

That is the original motto of where I started college. The school translated this to Latin, and the Latin version is stuck to all the buildings and publications, but I like the original English.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

The motto on my University is Sapere Aude - dare to know. :)

[Chuck Naill]

I've quoted her before, our colleges librarian said that education requires rigor. In these times of false, fake, and out right lies, knowing where to look for information can require time, it requires work. We have to go against the grain because people tend to repeat false information unknowingly.

[TSherbs]

Even the harsh critics of education don't want independent thinking in the young people of America; they want their version of "right thinking." I have yet to meet a parent who would say, "Please have my child learn to think independently of how I think." Especially the fathers. Way too much ego and righteousness involved for us (I am one, too).

All the rest is posture and fulmination.

[Chuck Naill]

I am reading this morning of the Wannsee Conference to plan "The Final Solution". Ironically these were classically educated including those with doctorates. As we discuss education, education without morals is of little value.

[TSherbs]

....education without morals is of little value.

Most everything without ethics becomes dangerous.

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.


W.B. Yeats

[Chuck Naill]

It appears Lincoln’s center and overarching center was, “all men created equal “.

[Chip]

Doesn't it depend on the needs and capacity of the individual?

For some students, being able to balance a checkbook and fill out an application, along with at least one practical skill (plumbing, carpentry, auto repair) is a good outcome.

For others, a general knowledge of science, history, and literature, to inform their choices as adults.

For the strivers, a detailed course in their chosen field, be it law, history, political science, microbiology, math, geology, linguistics, etc. that qualifies them for a career.

[Chuck Naill]

Who or what determines the needs and capacities of a person?

[JuneAmara]

You really don't have to fail to learn.
Education should focus on chasing the bag

[Cookedj]

Some are, others do exactly what they need to graduate and are okay with being ignorant.

These generalizations apply equally to adults, no? Just substitute "please an employer" for "graduate" and you pretty well some up most of working life. One would hope that most adults would be interested in learning and growth, but we all know actually what a mixture of motivations and intensities of motivations exists out there.

They absolutely do! The get-by-guy doing just enough to keep their job, but not excel at it. Honestly knowing how much I actually model behavior for the junior and senior students, I try to always make lessons on communication, bias in the media, how to survive etc. I am brutally honest with them, not to the point of crushing their spirit, but letting them know after graduation it's all them.

[Cookedj]

Failing is a great teacher, and it isn't a bad thing to fail at something.

[Chuck Naill]

For you educators or educators. Do students today feel they are being attacked by the "elites"? I found this today. If I were a parent of HS students I would be stressing education and particularily how to self educate. I the US the public library is a vast resource to self educate.

"Right-wing populists usually identify what they call liberal elites in culture, politics and the media as the “enemies of the people.” Combined with the rejection of marginalized groups like immigrants, this creates targets to blame for dissatisfaction with one’s personal situation or the state of society as a whole while leaving a highly unequal economic system intact. Right-wing populists’ focus on the so-called culture wars, the narrative that one’s culture is under attack from liberal elites, is very effective because culture can be an important source of identity and self-worth for people. It is also effective in organizing political conflicts along cultural, rather than economic lines."

[Chip]

When I taught field courses, I tried to pass on what I'd learned about mountains, rivers, glaciers, and the forces such as gravity and thermodynamics that animate our world.

Some of it, I'd been taught by teachers and mentors (e.g. Luna Leopold of the US Geological Survey). Some I'd learned through observation and experience.

Beyond the natural science, I also taught students and field assistants practical skills: how to climb rock and ice, how to ski the backcountry, wade fast streams, paddle a boat in a current, find a route through steep and difficult terrain, how to locate a camp and live outdoors, how to anticipate hazards and avoid them, how to be comfortable and happy in wild and remote places, while getting the job done.

Quite a few of the high-school students who took our field courses changed their selection of college major to natural science. Several of my field assistants took up careers in environmental science, climate research, wildlife and fish biology, and similar fields.

I also taught English literature, and creative writing in classrooms and workshops, with an identical aim: to pass on insights and skills about using language in a memorable way.

[Chuck Naill]

If anything, education should teach us how to do research and discover what is true. I am thinking of the Sandy Hook/Alex Jones conspiracy.

[Chip]

I never liked teaching in a classroom, breathing that stale departmental air.

If you want to teach about rivers, go to a river. That gives the students something real to focus on. It also gives them the chance to learn in a direct way, often aside from what's being taught. When I did a session on stream meanders, I had the students wade across some bends, to get the feel of different current speeds and turbulence.

One young woman, who loved dance, came up with an exercise in which we formed a line, linked hands, and then acted out the differing current speeds, resulting in a human diagram of a meander bend. Sheer genius on her part.

[Chuck Naill]

Experiencing rivers is a good thing. Learning what took place in those rivers requires more. So, I can appreciate the historians and classrooms.

[Chip]

Learning what took place in those rivers requires more.

In the rivers? I don't get it. Could you explain?

[Chuck Naill]

Learning what took place in those rivers requires more.

In the rivers? I don't get it. Could you explain?

The rivers I paddled, whitewater, floated logs, commercial endeavors, and I the one where I grew up, Cherokee hunters.

[Chip]

Doesn't sound as if you got that knowledge in a classroom.

Fluvial geomorphology is my field: how flowing water creates landforms. My thesis was on using lichen horizons and species composition, along with a physical survey of the channel, to estimate river flows back several thousand years.

https://i.imgur.com/RQ8nEIQ.jpg

The study area, Northgate Canyon on the North Platte River, is extremely remote and difficult to reach. It was too rough for boats until modern inflatables were developed, and is still risky. The only historical datum I used was that when timber was cut and driven to supply ties to the transcontinental railroad (c. 1867), the highest point from which they could be floated was a place called Six Mile Gap. Since tie drives scoured the river bed and banks pretty severely, I located my study area above that point, so the lichen record would be intact.

Sounds like we have at least two things in common: old-time music and running rivers.

[Chuck Naill]

Doesn't sound as if you got that knowledge in a classroom.

Fluvial geomorphology is my field: how flowing water creates landforms. My thesis was on using lichen horizons and species composition, along with a physical survey of the channel, to estimate river flows back several thousand years.

https://i.imgur.com/RQ8nEIQ.jpg

The study area, Northgate Canyon on the North Platte River, is extremely remote and difficult to reach. It was too rough for boats until modern inflatables were developed, and is still risky. The only historical datum I used was that when timber was cut and driven to supply ties to the transcontinental railroad (c. 1867), the highest point from which they could be floated was a place called Six Mile Gap. Since tie drives scoured the river bed and banks pretty severely, I located my study area above that point, so the lichen record would be intact.

Sounds like we have at least two things in common: old-time music and running rivers.

Mostly creeks and rivers in the Smoky Mountains and Cumberland Plateau. I lived 45 minutes from a favorite section of the Little River so I could paddle it after work.

[Chuck Naill]

I have canoes, c-1’s , and a Aire Puma.

I was more of a crash and burn paddler. First time I paddled the Ocoee I swam every rapid. Then I took two weekends of lessons from a lady in her 50's. She later taught my grandaugthers when she was in her 80's.

Unlike me, my son got into it as a child. His first trip was sitting behind me in a Blue Hole Starburst when he was four. He became a very talented c-boater.

My eldest, a daughter, paddles tandem several rivers.


We go on a family flotilla every year with grand children.

[Chip]

Years ago, a good mate, Jack Kloepfer, started a company, Jack's Plastic Welding, that makes cat tubes, dry bags, and heavy-duty air mattresses (Paco Pads). The blue boat in the photo is his Pack Cat, which can be backpacked to a remote headwater or wherever. I've also got a 12 ft. Cutthroat sport cat that's amazing in big water and a 15 ft. Flyer Cat for long floats.

Here's a pic of me on the Colorado in the Grand Canyon. Swam five times: not bad for a small boat in big water.

https://i.imgur.com/k03X9Oz.jpg

Here's one of Deb and me balanced on a rock called Lucifer, in Hell's Half Mile on the Green River in Lodore Canyon.

https://i.imgur.com/31yoj8E.jpg

We managed to rock the boat off with no harm done (except to our nerves). I sent the photo to Jack and he blew it up and posted it on the wall in the shop. He said they had some good laughs.

[Chuck Naill]

Years ago, a good mate, Jack Kloepfer, started a company, Jack's Plastic Welding, that makes cat tubes, dry bags, and heavy-duty air mattresses (Paco Pads). The blue boat in the photo is his Pack Cat, which can be backpacked to a remote headwater or wherever. I've also got a 12 ft. Cutthroat sport cat that's amazing in big water and a 15 ft. Flyer Cat for long floats.

Here's a pic of me on the Colorado in the Grand Canyon. Swam five times: not bad for a small boat in big water.

https://i.imgur.com/k03X9Oz.jpg

Here's one of Deb and me balanced on a rock called Lucifer, in Hell's Half Mile on the Green River in Lodore Canyon.

https://i.imgur.com/31yoj8E.jpg

We managed to rock the boat off with no harm done (except to our nerves). I sent the photo to Jack and he blew it up and posted it on the wall in the shop. He said they had some good laughs.

Wow, that could have been a bad pin. Thank you for sharing, Chip.

These are poor quality, but you can get an idea of creeks I ran.

[Chip]

Can't see any photos. I've been using an online hosting service, imgur, that works very well.

I've seen photos and videos of boats pinned on that rock, which is infamous. It's a very steep rapid and we were going so fast that we slid up the green algae coating to balance on top. This was shot seconds after we tipped off. Deb was yelling at our friend on the bank: Did you get a picture of that?

https://i.imgur.com/aTlpjQq.jpg

The nearest challenging whitewater runs are the Poudre Canyon in Colorado and Northgate Canyon on the North Platte. This is a rapid called Narrow Falls.

https://i.imgur.com/ER4rHDi.jpg

At peak flows, about half the boats that go down will flip.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Whoa! Looks like fun there. :) I've kayaked a couple of small rivers here in New Zealand, and a little open water stuff, but really was just an enthusiastic beginner and never progressed skill wise. Back in the mid 90s I was in Zimbabwe and spent a few days around Victoria Falls. Took a day trip rafting the Zambesi river below the Falls. Quite a rush. No pictures but there was some video footage that probably needs to be converted to a digital format to view now.

[Chip]

New Zealand has some incredible whitewater. I tried to arrange a run on the Buller, but it never came together. Did a lot of paddling on Lyttelton Harbour, but most of my attention was on sailing.

To ease back to education, I'd say a major goal is to pass on one's personal knowledge, and the collective knowledge and learning of society, to young people, so they don't have to start from scratch. It 's up to them how much to accept or dispute or change according to their needs and further learning. But we have a body of knowledge that represents a tremendous amount of work and observation and passion: a worthwhile legacy.

I'm grateful to my teachers and mentors in several fields.

[TSherbs]

There are some sharp rocks in these pics! I've paddled some white water in Canada in my younger days (Ontario, Quebec, British Colombia) but I would not attempt it again... All I own now is a fishing kayak....

[Chuck Naill]

Do elite private schools produce leaders or worse? I am reading about a $60k per year tuition school with racist issues they are trying to address.

[Chip]

The elite school pipeline is a European legacy, with English boarding schools such as Eton sending graduates to Oxford and Cambridge with a ticket to the highest levels of government.

In France, the Ecole Nationale d'Administration (ENA) has graduated most of the recent presidents of France.

In the US, a group of elite prep schools, mostly in the northeast, send disproportionate numbers of graduates to Harvard and Yale, and thence into the upper levels of government and finance.

Tribal culture is not only a feature of the lower classes.

[Chuck Naill]

One of the best things a parent can do is encourage.

Then add persistence..
“Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent." - Calvin Coolidge

[Mık Joger]

Getting an education is, first of all, a chance to get a prestigious and well-paid job. It's my opinion. I would not miss the opportunity to get a diploma of higher education, even with the difficulties that come along the way. I have the domyhomework4me service https://domyhomework.help/ at hand where you can always turn for help in this case.

[kazoolaw]

Welcome aboard Mik, good to see you here.

[TSherbs]

Interesting article by Isaac Saul (Tangle) on the denial of AP African-American Studies classes for the state of Florida. DeSantis doesn't directly run the state education department, but I am sure that they follow his directives:

I have taught AP English Literature many times. I am not a fan of AP programs in general for several reasons. But rejecting this one while offering dozens of others is political poppycock. Saul lays out his similar conclusion also with arguments from both left and right:

https://www.readtangle.com/florida-african-american-studies-desantis/?ref=tangle-newsletter

[Chuck Naill]

Interesting article by Isaac Saul (Tangle) on the denial of AP African-American Studies classes for the state of Florida. DeSantis doesn't directly run the state education department, but I am sure that they follow his directives:

I have taught AP English Literature many times. I am not a fan of AP programs in general for several reasons. But rejecting this one while offering dozens of others is political poppycock. Saul lays out his similar conclusion also with arguments from both left and right:

https://www.readtangle.com/florida-african-american-studies-desantis/?ref=tangle-newsletter

I did a brief examination of the course outline and was impressed that it covers a lot of ground. As is said, "you will know the truth and the truth will make you free". Not that all "truth" is true. Since this is an AP course, would the student be allowed to come to a personal conclusion? I guess there is no way to know.

What is DeSantis' concerns, or are they actual concerns? Given his pandemic actions and words, he seems the sort to "I think, therefore it is".

Sometimes here I'll read someone disparage the BLM movement and compare it to January 6, as if they are equal and the only difference is race AKA, the black people are getting a pass. This says to me that classes like this to be needed so that American students are able to see the differences and learn how forced migration of millions of Africans impacted the nation during its entire history in a negative manner. It also appears how West African's also played a role in the slave trade. I think this latter point is important to understand because of the many and diverse participants in African slavery.

[Chip]

So when does DeSantis start the Confederate Studies classes?

Wonder if he'll hire Marjorie Taylor Greene as a educational consultant? Should be some big bucks in that.

[TSherbs]

And here comes the lawsuit, on behalf of three Florida students: Three Florida Students to Sue for AP African-American Studies Course (https://www.npr.org/2023/01/25/1151376707/advanced-placement-african-american-studies-desantis-crump-lawsuit)

[TSherbs]

Here is the State Board of Education's list of six "areas of concern" in this AP curriculum:

https://imgur.com/GB38pjY

http://i.imgur.com/GB38pjY.png (https://imgur.com/GB38pjY)

I can't begin to tell you how ignorant these objections are. Honestly, the AP students in the lawsuit have a good chance. At least they have a great chance at making these bureacrats and politicians look like ignorant bigots--which is exactly how they are behaving.

I am fairly certain that the persons pushing these "concerns" couldn't even get a B in the course as it is presently structured. They object to bell hooks? They can't even read and understand bell hooks!

[TSherbs]

Here is a sample summary of a few sections of the course. Weekly plans are laid out in more detail; this is part of a unit summary:

http://i.imgur.com/ZJmcw3t.png (https://imgur.com/ZJmcw3t)

This kind of thing is precisely what a college course in AA Studies would be likely to include. These are the top figures in their fields, highly respect academics, writers, and leaders. If the topic is, say, "radical feminism," then you have to read radical feminists, furcrissakes. If your topic is The Russian Revolution, then you have to read Marx and Lenin. Yeah, their ideas are going to be RADICAL. THAT'S THE POINT, Jocco.

If I remember right, Thomas Paine said some pretty radical things that were they excerpted and quoted in this document might bring pause to conservatives worried about "indoctrination." Or maybe not, because he was white and Thomas Paine, otherwise revered by conservatives in favor of small government:

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church. All national institutions of churches–whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish–appear to me no other than human inventions set up to terrify and enslave mankind and monopolize power and profit.

Could a high school senior handle reading this by Paine? Would we object to this level of opinionating? Would we think that a highly qualified 17/18 yr old student would somehow be tainted by this point of view? Should Paine be expunged from a curriculum because he wrote this? Because he thought this?

What a bunch of scared whites in Florida leadership. How embarrassing.

[Chuck Naill]

“Concerns” are laughable. 😂😂

[Chuck Naill]

Education should prepare people to think critically about any topic. It seems some will say, "this will have negative impact". Why not teach the student to be able to hear something and decide for themselves if something is truly appropriate or practical?

[TSherbs]

Education should prepare people to think critically about any topic.

This very purpose and tool is one of the key skills outlined in this (rejected) AP curriculum. In fact, it is listed first.

Do you find it puzzling that the department of education in Florida released a broadside explaining their "concerns" for a rejected AP course? Some political motives there? I've never seen such a thing before over a rejected pilot AP program.

[Chuck Naill]

Education should prepare people to think critically about any topic.

This very purpose and tool is one of the key skills outlined in this (rejected) AP curriculum. In fact, it is listed first.

Do you find it puzzling that the department of education in Florida released a broadside explaining their "concerns" for a rejected AP course? Some political motives there? I've never seen such a thing before over a rejected pilot AP program.

I have previously commented on the "concerns", Ted. I find them frivolous.

I am more concerned, however, that DeSantis et al hold Americans with such distain and intends to keep them ignorant. Even if there are African American history providers that are not entirely accurate or balanced, that information should be available so a citizen can use their critical thinking skills to come to a conclusion. Lord knows that those of us who grew up in American high schools in post-World War 2 were not provided accurate or balanced American histories. We had to learn on our own.

[TSherbs]

Enjoy:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cn70gTVsznJ/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

Daily Show parody of the upset over "CRT" in states like Florida and Missouri.

[TSherbs]

Arkansas next (no surprise, I suppose):


Kimberly Mundell, director of communications for the state Elementary and Secondary Education Division, said Friday that the agency has been in contact with the College Board -- the producer of the African American studies course -- to get information about the course in light of Sanders' call for a comprehensive review of instructional materials.

"We will review the information and assess the course at the end of this year's pilot to ensure students are taught factual history and that participation articulates into college credit that is beneficial to students," Mundell said.

[TSherbs]

"We will review the information and assess the course at the end of this year's pilot to ensure students are taught factual history and that participation articulates into college credit that is beneficial to students," Mundell said.

I want to address the two bolded criteria mentioned in the statement above. I am highly suspicious of political appointees who claim to know better pedagogy than the professionals actually monitoring and implementing policy.

(1) "factual history". I am worried that this is a ruse for trying to filter out interpretations that are not in alignment with the wishes of the state and to allow in only those interpretations considered orthodox. "Facts" are rarely in dispute in history classes or history textbooks and curriculum. There is, occasionally, dispute over which "facts" get covered and which don't, and sometimes this effort to include or exclude receives political scrutiny and criticism. But it is the interpretation of events, the manner in which patterns and themes are drawn from the strings of events that typically causes more controversy. Interprettions are made from facts, they are not facts theemselves. Politicians on both sides often intentionally blur or deceive around these definitional differences in order to affect the changes (results) that they want. This is an injustice to the students looking for quality education.

(2) The second bolded phrase is meaningless in itself. I have no idea what it means. "articulate" is the wrong word, and "college credit that is beneficial to students" totally misses the primary "benefit" of AP classes: college credit. If what this man means is that he wants to wait to see if colleges will in fact give a credit for the course, well, fewer colleges now give credit for any of the AP courses because they started losing too much tuiton money to students who wanted to graduate a semester or an entire year early. To refuse ONLY this course on that reason would be cynical and racist (in effect). To refuse to offer ANY AP courses would at least be consistent and based in principle (as I have said, there are other reasons that I object to AP classes, not being discussed here). Perhaps "beneficial," however, means some other insidious form of trying to judge what is orthodox and what is heresy. Yes, Arkansas has an anti-CRT type governor's edict, but this language in this statement is more much vague and pernicious in its potential harm for the exploration (college-level) of sharp young minds.

My AP students were, mostly, among the strongest readers and writers in the school. At least half of them (I generalize here from decades of experience) began their senior year alread writing college-level papers. Some of them wrote papers more incisive than I ever did in all five years of my undergraduate time (yeah, took me five to get out). They were often smarter and more insightful than many teachers. Seventeen and eighteen year olds can be VERY perceptive and eager to be challenged with current cutting edge interpretations. It was my job to introduce them to the more "standard" methods of interpretation AND to some of the more "radical" ones (although, as it turns out, even the more "radical" of contemporary interpretations utilize writings and interpretations expressed hundreds of years ago. Even Queer Theory.) These politicians mucking about in stuff that they have no training in and don't understand will make them look like fools. You watch.

[Chuck Naill]

Lets consider the well-known era of Jim Crow laws toward the two points you emboldened.

The student I suppose would be introduced to racial segregation in Souther US states, perhaps they would learn about Jump Jim Crow, maybe where African Americans couldn't eat at lunch counters. I do remember learning about these historical facts, but what I didn't learn was the impact if had on African Americans. These laws made them feel inferior. It was hostile. This was an era of lynchings, red lining, substandard education, and the basic dehumanizing of people who were just as American as the white people.

I would think that a student going to a state or out of state university, understanding American histories of racial degradation and segregation to be practical in not making the white student appear to be an idiot and uninformed. As we all learned, college life does not suffer some sorts of fools. You might just wind up with a roommate from a different race.

I have to relate an experience this weekend. I watched this wonderful, animated movie with my biracial twin grandchildren. The hero of the movie was a child who had a British accent and was black. When my grandchild was relating the movie to her father, she didn't identify her as black. When I mentioned the movie, the father said she had not identified the character's race. I learned something. For my grandchild, race identification is just not as important when talking about a movie character as it is to me. This is a new generation of student who is experiencing firsthand an America where race is beginning not to be an issue and it has to be because racial history facts and the proper honest interpretations are being lived out by informed Americans who refuse to tolerate the past misinformation.

While the Huckabee types will continue to muddy the waters of truth, they are increasingly losing relevance.

[Chip]

In authoritarian societies, education means indoctrinating children in the beliefs and customs of the dominant power group. A friend who got a great scholarship to Brigham Young University dropped out in his second year, disgusted with the Mormon approach to education, which he described as "memorizing the correct answers."

The present drift in the former slave states (and right-wing states generally) is to mandate a similar strategy: try to reproduce the beliefs and biases of the parents among the next generation, to reinforce the power structure (in this case, white supremacy). Outlaw any material that contradicts the approved version.

This strategy also seems to prevail in the spread of "Christian" schools and also the rise in home-schooling which attempts to insulate children from supposedly harmful influences and ideas. The following is only one example:

Outrage over alleged Nazi homeschooling group in Ohio

Telegram channel reportedly distributed lessons plans which included writing exercises based on Hitler quotes

Adam Gabbatt
Wed 1 Feb 2023

An alleged “Nazi homeschooling group” based in Ohio has been widely condemned, amid reports that it distributed lesson plans which included writing exercises based on quotes by Adolf Hitler.

A couple calling themselves “Mr and Mrs Saxon” established the “Dissident Homeschool” channel on Telegram in 2021, according to reporting by Anonymous Comrades Collective, an anti-fascist research group, verified by Huffpost and Vice. The channel, which has almost 2,500 subscribers, distributes “ready-made lesson plans”, Huffpost reported, including history lessons which praise the Confederate general Robert E Lee as a “grand role model for young, white men” and denigrate Martin Luther King Jr as “the antithesis of our civilization and our people”.

The Saxons were identified by Huffpost and Vice as Logan and Katja Lawrence, from Upper Sandusky, a town of about 7,000 in northern Ohio.

In a statement, Stephanie Siddens, interim Ohio state school board president, said she was “outraged and saddened” by the emergence of the group. “There is absolutely no place for hate-filled, divisive and hurtful instruction in Ohio’s schools, including our state’s home-schooling community,” Siddens said. “I emphatically and categorically denounce the racist, antisemitic and fascist ideology and materials being circulated as reported in recent media stories.”

The emergence of the group has led to calls for a revision of the way Ohio oversees homeschooling. Huffpost reported that parents planning to homeschool must submit “a brief outline of the intended curriculum” and a “list of teaching materials” to the local public school superintendent. “Then, if the ‘home education plan’ meets the basic requirements of state law, the superintendent must excuse the child from public school attendance,” Huffpost wrote.

“But even in states with these types of requirements, there’s little to no enforcement mechanism to ensure that parents are actually teaching the curriculum they submitted to the superintendent.”

Teresa Fedor, a state board of education member, told WVXU News Ohio needed to improve homeschooling regulations. “It’s quite disturbing to realise how easy it was for these parents to sidestep the little requirement that is necessary in the state of Ohio to register with the superintendent,” she said. Fedor called for the Ohio governor, Mike DeWine, to condemn the homeschooling program. A spokesman for the Republican governor said in a statement to Statehouse News Bureau: “Racism and antisemitism are vile and repugnant. Governor DeWine condemns them in all forms.”

Tom Roberts, president of the Ohio National Association for the Advancement of Colored People and a former Democratic state senator, told Statehouse News Bureau he planned to raise the issue with the NAACP national board of directors. “I was shocked,” he said. “I know that there is all kinds of hate and all kinds of anti-American groups out there, but for it to be taught in school is another subject altogether.”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/feb/01/nazi-homeschooling-group-ohio-condemned?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[TSherbs]

"miseducation"

[Chuck Naill]

In authoritarian societies, education means indoctrinating children in the beliefs and customs of the dominant power group. A friend who got a great scholarship to Brigham Young University dropped out in his second year, disgusted with the Mormon approach to education, which he described as "memorizing the correct answers."

The present drift in the former slave states (and right-wing states generally) is to mandate a similar strategy: try to reproduce the beliefs and biases of the parents among the next generation, to reinforce the power structure (in this case, white supremacy). Outlaw any material that contradicts the approved version.

This strategy also seems to prevail in the spread of "Christian" schools and also the rise in home-schooling which attempts to insulate children from supposedly harmful influences and ideas. The following is only one example:

Outrage over alleged Nazi homeschooling group in Ohio

Telegram channel reportedly distributed lessons plans which included writing exercises based on Hitler quotes

Adam Gabbatt
Wed 1 Feb 2023

An alleged “Nazi homeschooling group” based in Ohio has been widely condemned, amid reports that it distributed lesson plans which included writing exercises based on quotes by Adolf Hitler.

A couple calling themselves “Mr and Mrs Saxon” established the “Dissident Homeschool” channel on Telegram in 2021, according to reporting by Anonymous Comrades Collective, an anti-fascist research group, verified by Huffpost and Vice. The channel, which has almost 2,500 subscribers, distributes “ready-made lesson plans”, Huffpost reported, including history lessons which praise the Confederate general Robert E Lee as a “grand role model for young, white men” and denigrate Martin Luther King Jr as “the antithesis of our civilization and our people”.

The Saxons were identified by Huffpost and Vice as Logan and Katja Lawrence, from Upper Sandusky, a town of about 7,000 in northern Ohio.

In a statement, Stephanie Siddens, interim Ohio state school board president, said she was “outraged and saddened” by the emergence of the group. “There is absolutely no place for hate-filled, divisive and hurtful instruction in Ohio’s schools, including our state’s home-schooling community,” Siddens said. “I emphatically and categorically denounce the racist, antisemitic and fascist ideology and materials being circulated as reported in recent media stories.”

The emergence of the group has led to calls for a revision of the way Ohio oversees homeschooling. Huffpost reported that parents planning to homeschool must submit “a brief outline of the intended curriculum” and a “list of teaching materials” to the local public school superintendent. “Then, if the ‘home education plan’ meets the basic requirements of state law, the superintendent must excuse the child from public school attendance,” Huffpost wrote.

“But even in states with these types of requirements, there’s little to no enforcement mechanism to ensure that parents are actually teaching the curriculum they submitted to the superintendent.”

Teresa Fedor, a state board of education member, told WVXU News Ohio needed to improve homeschooling regulations. “It’s quite disturbing to realise how easy it was for these parents to sidestep the little requirement that is necessary in the state of Ohio to register with the superintendent,” she said. Fedor called for the Ohio governor, Mike DeWine, to condemn the homeschooling program. A spokesman for the Republican governor said in a statement to Statehouse News Bureau: “Racism and antisemitism are vile and repugnant. Governor DeWine condemns them in all forms.”

Tom Roberts, president of the Ohio National Association for the Advancement of Colored People and a former Democratic state senator, told Statehouse News Bureau he planned to raise the issue with the NAACP national board of directors. “I was shocked,” he said. “I know that there is all kinds of hate and all kinds of anti-American groups out there, but for it to be taught in school is another subject altogether.”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/feb/01/nazi-homeschooling-group-ohio-condemned?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Wow, you've got some biases and over generalizations there, Chip. LOL!!

[TSherbs]

Well, you might think of it this way, Chuck: to an athiest (or very strong skeptic), ALL religious instruction in home or church or school that attempts to inculcate a belief in a "god" and in the priveleged status of the believers of any "god" is nothing more than a giant totalitarian lie meant to reinforce the power structure of their believers' culture and to delegitimize the "gods" and beliefs of the other faiths.

[Chuck Naill]

If ALL religious instruction is an inculcation, the same would be true to unstill in a student that all gods are myths. Better to teach your child how to think correctly or critically, which I believe homeschooling can afford. At least in discipleship, to decide to be one is personal. You cannot be a disciple simply because your parent or teacher is one.

Being indoctrinated can be humiliating when you discover that you are. Folks can be indoctrinated and not realized they are. It is better to consider what others think and hopefully they will afford you the same freedom.

[TSherbs]

If ALL religious instruction is an inculcation, the same would be true to unstill in a student that all gods are myths. Not if no "gods" exist. This would be like saying that both accepting and denying gravity as a force in the universe is "myth" making, a highly dubious position.


Better to teach your child how to think correctly or critically, which I believe homeschooling can afford. Of course, it "can." But how often does it? Two thirds of homeschoolers in the US are Christians seeking insulation and more control. How many of them have any idea how (and are willing to) to teach "critical thinking," as you say, is probably a crap shoot. With low odds. Will they ask their children to challenge their faith with tough questions? With logical rejoinders? Or will they blithely ignore these things, delaying those kinds of more intellectual engagement until the kids reach college when the studies show that the kids from the strictest families have the greatest liberalizing reactionary responses?

I have taught many formerly home-schooled students in my career. A few were stellar thinkers: very inquisitive and probing. Most were behind on their reading and writing skills (particularly the writing) and many became shell-shocked by the complex themes of high-quality literature.

[Chuck Naill]

Home schooling reasons are more focused on an individual child's learning type, to accomplish more academically, to provide extended learning opportunities, and to build child parent relationships as motivations, to name a few.

Atheistic parents also home school.

I tried confirming your "2/3" quote but was unable. If you can provide documentation, I would like to scope it out.

[Chip]

I can see the value for families who live in remote spots where it's simply too hard to get the kids to a public school. These days, given a satellite internet connection, the kids can have access to material beyond what their parents can provide at home.

Years ago, a friend who worked for social services and did family therapy, etc. on court referrals told me that in that rural area, homeschooling was sometimes used to conceal child abuse, including incest. She also worried about the ability of homeschooled kids to function outside their family settings.

[TSherbs]

"To accomplish more academically"? "More" than what? More physics? More chemistry? More history? More essays? More calculus? More cursive? Or are we talking more morality and ethics and religious values?

I've actually not heard of this purpose before, of "accomplishing more." In my experience, the students come back into formal schooling for 9th grade often because they need more socialization with peers and the material is beyond the parental ability to teach it (and continue to hold sway over their kids).

[TSherbs]

@Chip: yes, teachers are the front line of protection against child abuse and neglect. They are also the largest (in number) reporter of abuse and neglect to the state agencies.

[Chuck Naill]

Yes, there are homeschool cooperatives which can provide more of what you listed. These are quite common. And yes, cursive, plus use fountain pens. A more classic educational experience is an option, https://welltrainedmind.com/a/classical-education/ I would have loved to have had this experience.

Yes, accomplishing more such as additional field trips, other classes not normally available in public education like what I mentioned above, more advanced art and music experiences. Additionally, homeschoolers can attend two-year college courses while in HS. A teen I know took an EMT course at 17 plus calculus and chemistry in 2022. The two sciences were free for taking the EMT course. She got to experience late night ambulance work, learned CPR/defibrillator use, hospital ER work and studying cadavers. She plans to be a military flight nurse. Her sibling is finishing nursing school this year and plans to be a nurse practioner. Both are very social, have loads of friends, have excellent work ethics, and are very independent. More than anything, they are others oriented.

I don't know who have been talking to, but brainwashing in religion is not the purpose of home-based education. It is not for remote families any more than urban families. It is not for convenience or sheltering. It is not anti-science, and yes, homeschoolers excel scholastically and graduate with advanced academic degrees.

What homeschool is, is an option. I am sounding less authoritarian that you. If you choose to raise your child void of any philosophical education, I won't complain.

[TSherbs]

My children are well out of college now. This isn't about my kids. Chuck, you sound like you're quoting from homeschooling promotional materials. Are you?

[Chuck Naill]

My children are well out of college now. This isn't about my kids. Chuck, you sound like you're quoting from homeschooling promotional materials. Are you?

Did I mention your children? No, I’m giving you first hand knowledge.

[TSherbs]

....
I don't know who have been talking to, but brainwashing in religion is not the purpose of home-based education. It is not for remote families any more than urban families. It is not for convenience or sheltering. It is not anti-science, and yes, homeschoolers excel scholastically and graduate with advanced academic degrees.

What homeschool is, is an option. I am sounding less authoritarian that you. If you choose to raise your child void of any philosophical education, I won't complain.

Well, who is the "you" here, then? You are addressing someone. Were you talking to Chip?

[Chuck Naill]

....
I don't know who have been talking to, but brainwashing in religion is not the purpose of home-based education. It is not for remote families any more than urban families. It is not for convenience or sheltering. It is not anti-science, and yes, homeschoolers excel scholastically and graduate with advanced academic degrees.

What homeschool is, is an option. I am sounding less authoritarian that you. If you choose to raise your child void of any philosophical education, I won't complain.

Well, who is the "you" here, then? You are addressing someone. Were you talking to Chip?

Second person singular to mean anyone.

While I don't dream that I could change your mind/give some pause about homeschooling, your biased religious sentiments and opinions remind me of those against being "woke". You're stuck with your mindset even if history and other's experiences say otherwise.

[TSherbs]

[QUOTE=Chuck Naill;388796]....
I don't know who have been talking to, but brainwashing in religion is not the purpose of home-based education.

Second person singular to mean anyone.

Ok, but that is not how that line seems. Hard to imagine that it meant anyone beyond Chip or me, the two other people in the conversation.

I have lots of biases, Chuck. I don't deny them, nor even much regret most of them. The pernicious ones I work on. The less impactful ones I mostly ignore, as I do in others. This is a chat forum, where, for the most part, what we do is share our biased opinions. I am biased about pens, too. Which I discuss repeatedly in threads. I am definitely biased against homeschooling and never considered it for my own children: there is no way I could single-handedly have done as good a job as an entire team of professionals hired for the job. I couldn't be their doctor or lawyer or electrician, either.

One of my "biases" is against the parents who think that simply because they went to school once, too, that they know how best to be a teacher and can substitute themselves for the accumulated years of training and experience of a hired professional. Parents have the "right" to homeschool in each state as long as they follow certain guidelines. That is fine with me; I understand the "right." But I also believe that the right is exercised by a good number of underqualified persons to the detriment of the children. Is it "most"? I don't know. But in my 37 years of teaching experience dealing with students coming back into the school system after having been homeschooled, the academic deficiencies have been frequent enough that I am skeptical of the general practice. In the same way that a doctor might become skeptical of patients diagnosing and treating themselves by only consulting WebMD.

[Chip]

Never had kids, but I've taught quite a few.

Worked as an Artist in Education for several western states and did residencies in public schools, including remote village schools in Alaska (via floatplane). Also taught natural science (hydrology, geology, geomorphology, aquatic biology) based on my years of fieldwork, and also outdoor skills (navigation, boating, river paddling, rock climbing, rescue, survival, camping, cooking, etc.) I worked with after-school college prep for high school students (some in off-reservation boarding schools), public school summer programs, and residential stuff such as the Teton Science School, where I taught both natural science and writing.

I think it's vital for the young to learn some things in groups, both to acquire the basics of getting along with others, and to hear what other students have to say about the subjects (and themselves). My ideal program would limit the time spent sitting in a classroom and concentrate on non-contact sports and field trips, mostly close to home in local parks, museums, libraries, even churches, synagogues, and mosques. Also businesses, factories, military bases, etc.

Given my father's extreme right-wing views, I got enough indoctrination without full days of propaganda in the guise of education. It took me years to shed that narrow, paranoid way of thinking. I had teachers who were obviously traditional and conservative and others who were liberal, which forced me to think critically about what I was being taught. Home schooling would have been disastrous.

[Chuck Naill]

[QUOTE=Chuck Naill;388796]....
I don't know who have been talking to, but brainwashing in religion is not the purpose of home-based education.

Second person singular to mean anyone.

Ok, but that is not how that line seems. Hard to imagine that it meant anyone beyond Chip or me, the two other people in the conversation.

I have lots of biases, Chuck. I don't deny them, nor even much regret most of them. The pernicious ones I work on. The less impactful ones I mostly ignore, as I do in others. This is a chat forum, where, for the most part, what we do is share our biased opinions. I am biased about pens, too. Which I discuss repeatedly in threads. I am definitely biased against homeschooling and never considered it for my own children: there is no way I could single-handedly have done as good a job as an entire team of professionals hired for the job. I couldn't be their doctor or lawyer or electrician, either.

One of my "biases" is against the parents who think that simply because they went to school once, too, that they know how best to be a teacher and can substitute themselves for the accumulated years of training and experience of a hired professional. Parents have the "right" to homeschool in each state as long as they follow certain guidelines. That is fine with me; I understand the "right." But I also believe that the right is exercised by a good number of underqualified persons to the detriment of the children. Is it "most"? I don't know. But in my 37 years of teaching experience dealing with students coming back into the school system after having been homeschooled, the academic deficiencies have been frequent enough that I am skeptical of the general practice. In the same way that a doctor might become skeptical of patients diagnosing and treating themselves by only consulting WebMD.


Nothing wrong with being skeptical, concerned, or relating your few experiences here for consideration.

What is wrong with your view is casting "ALL" into some preconceived bias against religion or academic success. Since public or private systems could be as easily critiqued, your postings here are at best an unsubstantiated rant. I had hoped better of you.

At least you have children and the responsibility to educate as you see fit. In a non-totalitarian society, those freedoms will continue.

[TSherbs]

What is wrong with your view is casting "ALL" into some preconceived bias against religion or academic success. Since public or private systems could be as easily critiqued, your postings here are at best an unsubstantiated rant.

?? Do I have to have documents of my 37 years of teaching experience for this conversation? And which part was a "rant"? All I said was that my experience has made me "skeptical." That's hardly a "rant."

And the "all" part was from the view of an athiest. Definitionally, an athiest does see "all" references to the existence of gods as incorrect and misguided. There is no getting around that. In the same way that believers see "all" athiests as incorrect in their denials of the existence of god. That is not a "rant" either to acknowledge this.

[Chuck Naill]

You really never attempted an objective discussion about homeschooling. There is nothing else I can add regarding the opportunities and benefits of this educational option. Think as you wish, Ted.


I've come to an idea to perhaps explain why a Christian might consider homeschooling. It is not to insulate, but to provide knowledge that will not or cannot come from modern secular thought. Since most Americans will be familiar with the Ten Commandments, I will use them to explain my point. If we take commandments 2-10 we see how to treat others. This is why Jesus said the law and the prophets are summed up with loving God and treating others as you would want to be treated.

For example, telling the truth is based on the knowledge that doing so will produce goodness in a community. Not coveting your neighbor's belongings results in goodness, stability, contentment, and joy. This is not something you will hear in secular conversations because there is no basis for truth. As Pontius Pilot replied to Jesus, "what is truth". We live in a time when truth is whatever you think it is. Goodness, beauty, love, or virtues are not something you will learn in a public school because there is no foundation from which to draw. As the scriptures say, "everyman did what was right in his own eyes". I've heard a people say they have their own truth. How practical for living is millions of people living by their truth?

People who are disciples of Jesus want to walk in a manner as he walked. To live their lives as Jesus would live if he were them. They see this as experiential knowledge, which it is, and worth imparting this knowledge to their children. This stems not from fear of the world or secular thought. It is to equip their children with the virtues which will allow them to live a good life, knowing beauty, healthy love, along with joy. This knowledge actually makes children stronger, not insulated. And this is certainly not authoritarian. Jesus is not an authoritarian.

[TSherbs]

You really never attempted an objective discussion about homeschooling. Yeah, I keep saying that. I don't trust it, from my experience. And like I said, it's a right that families have. I just wish that more of them would do it better---or give their kids back to the professionals at schools.

In a side note, you keep mentioning Christians and Jesus. It is not "objective" to fall back on religion, either. Especially not when you mention only one of the many faiths practiced in the US, many of which, including Christianity, that try to set up schools or homeschooling networks, to instruct their children in the precepts of their faith. Again, for athiests, or for any other people of faith other than the one in question, this is indoctrination in falsehoods. That, by the way, is an objective statement: each of the monotheistic faiths in their core teachings considers the others to be in error, if not heretical. Ahtiests believe that they ALL are (that is another objective statement).

Commandments 1-4 are all specific to Judaism and Christianity. They refer to the Judeo-Christian god. # 5-10 are common to nearly every culture on the planet and require no church or separate school or home-schooling to teach them: all schools teach these common values. (#10 perhaps the least, but this is because all of American advertising is built on the idea that we should want that the other people in the ads have).

As I said, homeschooling, within limits, is an Americn right. I just wish that they did it better. By the time a young person is about 16 (some say much earlier), their patterns of adult thinking, the limits of their adult intellectual trajectories, have pretty much been set (that's a generalization, I know--but policy is built upon general patterns). It's a shame, but many potential very sharp minds are dulled in the backwaters of American intellecual lassitude and ignorance.

[TSherbs]

...

Given my father's extreme right-wing views, I got enough indoctrination without full days of propaganda in the guise of education. It took me years to shed that narrow, paranoid way of thinking.....

I am glad that you escaped those limitations. I can remember, in 9th or 10th grade, when it dawned on me that I was smarter than my parents (not wiser, but intellectually smarter). That was so liberating for me. I loved my parents, and still do, but I never looked back at them intellectually again: I just forged forward. My father would become chippy and belittling at times about what I was reading, and he told me that teaching wasn't good enough for a son in his family, but I just said "fuck you" in the back of my mind and basically never told him again about what I was reading and learning. He just couldn't understand, and he was vindictive when his primacy of any kind was threatened (real alpha male). But my parents were divorced, and I never lived with him after I was 12, so I had that kind of escape also.

This is one of the problems that I see with homeschooling: even in a cooperative, the kid's educational content is no better than what the parents think is good enough. It was always someone at school, at college, or at least outside my family who would really ask what I was interested in and suggest even more challenging readings. My parents never suggested a thing. Nor would they have known of much cuz they weren't reading.

[Chuck Naill]

You really never attempted an objective discussion about homeschooling. Yeah, I keep saying that. I don't trust it, from my experience. And like I said, it's a right that families have. I just wish that more of them would do it better---or give their kids back to the professionals at schools.

In a side note, you keep mentioning Christians and Jesus. It is not "objective" to fall back on religion, either. Especially not when you mention only one of the many faiths practiced in the US, many of which, including Christianity, that try to set up schools or homeschooling networks, to instruct their children in the precepts of their faith. Again, for athiests, or for any other people of faith other than the one in question, this is indoctrination in falsehoods. That, by the way, is an objective statement: each of the monotheistic faiths in their core teachings considers the others to be in error, if not heretical. Ahtiests believe that they ALL are (that is another objective statement).

Commandments 1-4 are all specific to Judaism and Christianity. They refer to the Judeo-Christian god. # 5-10 are common to nearly every culture on the planet and require no church or separate school or home-schooling to teach them: all schools teach these common values. (#10 perhaps the least, but this is because all of American advertising is built on the idea that we should want that the other people in the ads have).

As I said, homeschooling, within limits, is an Americn right. I just wish that they did it better. By the time a young person is about 16 (some say much earlier), their patterns of adult thinking, the limits of their adult intellectual trajectories, have pretty much been set (that's a generalization, I know--but policy is built upon general patterns). It's a shame, but many potential very sharp minds are dulled in the backwaters of American intellecual lassitude and ignorance.

We wished public schools did a better job also, Ted.

I never fell back on religion either. It’s not religious to not want your children subjected to ideas and secular reasonings which don’t support a good life with a moral center. For example, one could make an A in an ethics class without ever becoming ethical. This is a departure from classical education where topics were reasoned rather than memorizing some for a grade. You can teach someone not to tell a lie, but you have no basis within yourself to explain why. If all you why is because you think so, that’s a flimsy foundation. Again the “you” refers to anyone. This is why lying is subjective secular settings. First to have to know what truth is. And you have to see it in your best interest to be truthful.

I’d say the police officers that beat a man to death in Tennessee lacked a moral center to either leave such an environment or to stop the others.

[TSherbs]

I never fell back on religion either....

It sure looks like you fall back on religion right here:

...You can teach someone not to tell a lie, but you have no basis within yourself to explain why. If all you why is because you think so, that’s a flimsy foundation. Again the “you” refers to anyone. This is why lying is subjective secular settings....
Chuck, you are "falling back" on religious precepts here. You're just not being entirely transparent about it. It's a religious perspective to state that "secular" values are flimsy, but religion gives you a "basis within yourself to explain why." It's not even a strong argument position (I consider it specious). You also repeatedly discuss the desire for there to be more "disciples of Jesus" in the world. How is this not "falling back on religion"?

[Chip]

It’s not religious to not want your children subjected to ideas and secular reasonings which don’t support a good life with a moral center.

What ideas and secular reasonings? Be specific.

I gave up on established religion when I was about ten, because it made no sense to me. I couldn't stand the memorization and repetition (in lieu of thinking) nor the constant pressure to stamp out and punish any difference or dissent.

The values such as compassion, fair dealing, loyalty, etc. that I hold true don't depend on any religion, nor are they religious property. They can be taught as part of religious observance, but exist apart from all the myths and tales and smells and bells and hierachies and hates and persecutions.

[Chuck Naill]

It’s not religious to not want your children subjected to ideas and secular reasonings which don’t support a good life with a moral center.

What ideas and secular reasonings? Be specific.

I gave up on established religion when I was about ten, because it made no sense to me. I couldn't stand the memorization and repetition (in lieu of thinking) nor the constant pressure to stamp out and punish any difference or dissent.

The values such as compassion, fair dealing, loyalty, etc. that I hold true don't depend on any religion, nor are they religious property. They can be taught as part of religious observance, but exist apart from all the myths and tales and smells and bells and hierachies and hates and persecutions.

I think what you are referring to are Natural Laws that C.S. Lewis discussed in his work Mere Christianity. Those are laws everyone would agree are true, but seldom keep.

In 1979 I had just become a "Christian". My first child had been born two months later. When she was four we put her in a private school and later a private Christian school. While it may have been okay, I wanted something different than what the public schools had offered me where people kept their teaching jobs but were not up to the task or not. I was willing to pay. I did pay and not because I could readily afford it. I also wanted a venue where I could complain if required. I wanted teachers who loved my child and were willing to help them.

I wanted teachers who considered themselves in a service for my child. I didn't want to experiment. I wanted smaller classes. I wanted an acknowledgement of a higher power, and a commitment to classical virtues, temperance, prudence, fortitude, and justice.

Like you, I struggled with "religion" and like you, after my experience with an atheist teacher, walked away. When I was 24 I decided that Jesus was the biggest lie ever or the greatest human that ever lived. I decided to dedicate myself to some investigational reporting and learned to use Greek language resources to study the text for myself. I found this process enlightening which caused some problems with the pastor in the church where I attended as well as with my family. However, I was convinced that what Jesus said was both true and practical.

So, if a law says to tell the truth, that's useful, but to see that the law to be truthful is also a provision for a good life is something else. It is also possible to decide to treat others as you would have them treat you. I tried but was more unsuccessful than successful. I found trying to keep rule hard if not impossible, and there were rules for which I think we both would agree are both important and essential.

I've gone through some transitions over the years. I've been in valleys often. If there is some power that will allow me to love others and to treat them as I would want them to treat me, I'm all for it.

[Chip]

I didn't struggle with religion. I simply don't need it. This world is enough.

Nor do I need some "power" outside my own sense of decency and fairness to make me treat others well.

[Chuck Naill]

When I say struggle, it’s not bad thing. I struggled with any interest for which I was drawn.

You’re a rare one, Chip. I wish you continued success being always decent and fair with others.

[TSherbs]

... If there is some power that will allow me to love others and to treat them as I would want them to treat me, I'm all for it. For sure. As long as that "power" does not have other worse pernicious consequences or qualities. Religions are often big package deals. Approach with caution!

[Chuck Naill]

Americans endured years now of one man falling to tell the truth, bearing false witness and not caring one bit about whether it killed people from contracting a virus or if many were harmed and some killed so he could stay in office. Ever consider if that man had simply followed the concept of treating others as he would want to be treated. At a time when situational ethics abound and many could care less about classic virtues, have we progressed? Are we better off writing off ten simple concepts for living? Someone imaged what society would appear if everyone did their respective tasks with the idea that they were preforming their responsibilities in a way they would want other to do? It is worth considering.

Take any situation as apply the Golden Rule. When is it inappropriate?

I am trying to make the case for discipleship and how it can produce a good life today, and not just something in the future. I am in the process of learning what that means myself.

[TSherbs]

Take any situation as apply the Golden Rule. When is it inappropriate?


The Golden Rule is good. But it is limited when the person asking it of himself or herself believes in punishing (or killing) the self and others in order to weed out the weak. There are some people who use their hard-hearted lack of value for human life in order to inflict it on others. "I suck, we all suck, we should be rid of ourselves." The Golden Rule does not help in those callous situations where the individual does not expect to be treated well himself. Another line in this mode of thinking is, "I don't expect any sympathy or help, so don't ask me to help anyone else."

[TSherbs]

The problem with the Ten Commandments is that it is quite limited psychologically and asks for very little on the positive action side. It is mostly a series of specific "don't"s. It lacks, for example, a request that one honor oneself and all living things (it asks only that we honor our "mother and father," which perhaps can be expanded to mean "elders"). It asks nothing about trying to understand others, giving comfort to others, focusing on growth or even on spirituality and goodness. It asks nothing of parents or elders or communities. It asks nothing of kindness. Or even love. Nothing of perseverance, diligance, or harmony. Nothing about ambition. One of my biggest problems with my religious (Protestant) upbringing (I had a lot of church in my youth and teen years) was that I received ZERO sophisticated leadership or instruction or wisdom about any of these more complicated challenges that I was going to face as an adult. None! (my parents didn't do it, either, and they were Sunday-school teachers at one point). I have had to look well beyond Christian core commandments and Jesus' teachings (some of them are made up and very likely not connected to that man from Galilee) to get the more complicated, more actionable positive charts for living.

[TSherbs]

The Ten Commandments is more a list of rules that an ancient judge posts on the saloon doors of a village to remind them what he will punish the citizens for if they transgress and end up before him....

[Chuck Naill]

It is possible to see the big 10 differently. The other night I told my grandson to never gamble. What was my motivation? Restriction of fun? No, it was love. I see the big 10 as love.

[Chuck Naill]

Take any situation as apply the Golden Rule. When is it inappropriate?


The Golden Rule is good. But it is limited when the person asking it of himself or herself believes in punishing (or killing) the self and others in order to weed out the weak. There are some people who use their hard-hearted lack of value for human life in order to inflict it on others. "I suck, we all suck, we should be rid of ourselves." The Golden Rule does not help in those callous situations where the individual does not expect to be treated well himself. Another line in this mode of thinking is, "I don't expect any sympathy or help, so don't ask me to help anyone else."

I was surprised at your comments about “human life” given our other conversations, Ted.

[TSherbs]

Take any situation as apply the Golden Rule. When is it inappropriate?


The Golden Rule is good. But it is limited when the person asking it of himself or herself believes in punishing (or killing) the self and others in order to weed out the weak. There are some people who use their hard-hearted lack of value for human life in order to inflict it on others. "I suck, we all suck, we should be rid of ourselves." The Golden Rule does not help in those callous situations where the individual does not expect to be treated well himself. Another line in this mode of thinking is, "I don't expect any sympathy or help, so don't ask me to help anyone else."

I was surprised at your comments about “human life” given our other conversations, Ted.

What? I don't understand.

I am quoting what other people have said. I don't see what your "surprise" is. Please explain.

[TSherbs]

It is possible to see the big 10 differently. The other night I told my grandson to never gamble. What was my motivation? Restriction of fun? No, it was love. I see the big 10 as love.

Well, of course. You love your grandchildren.

But there is no commandment given to Moses from God that he or the Jews or you do so. That is my point. All those kinds of things are missing from the list (and I mention several other important life virtues and practices).

[Chuck Naill]

It is possible to see the big 10 differently. The other night I told my grandson to never gamble. What was my motivation? Restriction of fun? No, it was love. I see the big 10 as love.

Well, of course. You love your grandchildren.

But there is no commandment given to Moses from God that he or the Jews or you do so. That is my point. All those kinds of things are missing from the list (and I mention several other important life virtues and practices).

God loved Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. The big ten were provided out of love as was my encouragement toward my grandson.

Why would you tell a person not to covet unless you knew where coveting would lead? Can you think of any of the big 10 that were to punish or be mean spirited?

[Chuck Naill]

Is it enough to just be kind in deed? What if you did something that appeared to be kind, but the motivation was to look good? What if you had impure thoughts that you’d be embarrassed if anyone knew? We all have them.

The disciple wants to be rid , as much as possible , of those inward, private thoughts.

A disciple wants to be truthful, kind, trustworthy, brave, faithful, etc. This only possible if you have no fear.

[TSherbs]

It is possible to see the big 10 differently. The other night I told my grandson to never gamble. What was my motivation? Restriction of fun? No, it was love. I see the big 10 as love.

Well, of course. You love your grandchildren.

But there is no commandment given to Moses from God that he or the Jews or you do so. That is my point. All those kinds of things are missing from the list (and I mention several other important life virtues and practices).

God loved Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. The big ten were provided out of love....

This is off my point. Nevermind.

[Chuck Naill]

Why did you even respond? Lol!! I’ve noticed a pattern.

[TSherbs]

Why did you even respond? Lol!! I’ve noticed a pattern.

Chuck, I responded on the topic of the Golden Rule and the Ten Commandments and what is in them. I don't believe in a god, so I don't want to discuss anything beyond what is written in the text. If you want to have a discussion about God's love for Old Testament prophets, you'll need to have it with someone else. *For me,* there is no god and no god's love, etc. *For me,* you are just projecting your human wishes onto the stories of the Bible, and one can argue that God hates humanity and wants to give it suffering and pain and death for his sadistic amusement as effectively as claiming that God loves humanity. *For me,* there is no God to do any loving or hating, so I don't see any use in having a conversation about God.

But the Ten Commandments are written down for us to see. They do exist and have existed for thousands of years. They are interesting in themselves, for what they discuss. Very interesting set of inclusions and omissions. Even the order of them is interesting, and the fact that Moses is killed before reaching the Promised Land for violating one of them (well, he himself doesn't violate, but his followers do when he does not keep enough oversight over them. According to the story--it is a fiction, of course, but fictions carry meaning too.)

[Chuck Naill]

Why did you even respond? Lol!! I’ve noticed a pattern.

Chuck, I responded on the topic of the Golden Rule and the Ten Commandments and what is in them. I don't believe in a god, so I don't want to discuss anything beyond what is written in the text. If you want to have a discussion about God's love for Old Testament prophets, you'll need to have it with someone else. *For me,* there is no god and no god's love, etc. *For me,* you are just projecting your human wishes onto the stories of the Bible, and one can argue that God hates humanity and wants to give it suffering and pain and death for his sadistic amusement as effectively as claiming that God loves humanity. *For me,* there is no God to do any loving or hating, so I don't see any use in having a conversation about God.

But the Ten Commandments are written down for us to see. They do exist and have existed for thousands of years. They are interesting in themselves, for what they discuss. Very interesting set of inclusions and omissions. Even the order of them is interesting, and the fact that Moses is killed before reaching the Promised Land for violating one of them (well, he himself doesn't violate, but his followers do when he does not keep enough oversight over them. According to the story--it is a fiction, of course, but fictions carry meaning too.)
I didn’t pull you into a conversation against your will, Ted. Good grief dude!! At some point it’s not about some one else.

[TSherbs]

I didn’t pull you into a conversation against your will, Ted. Good grief dude!! At some point it’s not about some one else.

I know, Chuck. But the conversation drifted into an area I don't enjoy discussing. ANd then you made some "LOL" comment about my "pattern". That was clearly a slight, which I did not deserve.

So, I thought that I would actually explain myself. And now more personal criticism from you. Please note that I have not made a single criticism of you or your beliefs. I am just explaining why *I* did not want to follow a conversation into the area of what "God" may want or not want, love or not love, etc. I am focusing on *me,* on purpose. These are *my* views, and I own them.

So, once again, nevermind. Let's get back to the topic of the purpose of education: I consider the purpose of education to be the nurturing of psychological and neurological growth, the development of a relevant intellectual skill set for the contemporary society, and the promotion of a challenging intellectual environment for a growth mindset at whatever level a student is currently assessed.

[Chip]

Another less-publicized aspect of home schooling. I'll C&P the first part. Go to the link for the rest.

‘No more skewed history’: why Black families homeschooling grew fivefold

In culturally affirming settings, children have blossomed and US parents are finding no reason to return to public schools

Mario Koran
Thu 9 Feb 2023

Since she began homeschooling her children in Louisiana in the early 90s, Joyce Burges has watched the practice explode in popularity among families like hers.

“Parents nowadays – this woke generation of 25- to 40-year-old parents – their eyes are open. They’re just not having that whitewashed, skewed history any more,” she says.

Back when she started homeschooling, it was against the advice of friends and family who questioned how she could teach effectively without a college degree – only a handful of states require homeschool teachers have a GED or high school diploma. She’d decided to teach her son at home after his principal said he was struggling academically and would need to find a new school. “Here I am, Black woman, and our children are not welcomed into the system. So homeschooling was the only option at that time that we had.”

Though her son wasn’t expelled for behavioral issues, Black students in general have long been overrepresented in exclusionary practices. It’s especially true for boys. Data from the US Department of Education’s Office of Civil Rights show that Black boys in 2017-2018 were expelled and suspended at proportions that were three times their proportion of enrollment.

Under a structured regimen of chores and study time, Burges’s son blossomed, and she went on to educate all of her five children at home and co-found, in 2000, along with her husband, the National Black Home Educators organization. She says the organization now serves “hundreds of families a year”, providing them with study plans as well as community.

The homeschooling landscape today is vastly different from what it was when Burges was starting out. According to data from the US Census Bureau’s Household Pulse Survey, there was a dramatic rise after the start of the pandemic from an estimated 5.4% of school-aged children homeschooling in spring 2020 to 11.1% the following school year. The number of Black families increased more than five times over – from 3.3% to 16.1% – a bigger jump than any other racial group.

There’s no single motivating factor driving Black families to homeschool. But those who spoke to the Guardian described being fed up with a public school system that disproportionately punishes Black children, relies heavily on standardized testing and lacks diverse representation in the literature and history books their children are given. As the number of Black families turning to homeschooling grows, they are simultaneously creating communities that allow Black children to learn in a culturally affirming environment, free from the punitive approach of traditional schools.

Chris Stewart, a parent, education activist and former member of the Minneapolis school board, has for years been a vocal advocate for the importance of creating such educational environments for students – both as a refuge from systemic racism and a means of empowerment. He recognizes that homeschooled students represent only a small portion of the students in the US, but he sees promise in the frameworks Black families are creating through networks and cooperatives.

“While we don’t have robust research to support the idea this is something everybody should be doing, I think we have enough research to say that for many African Americans and people of color, when they put their kids into the safe harbor of learning environments that are created specifically for them, it’s a positive direction to go,” he says.

Burges says she’s met a lot of people who perceive homeschooling as primarily an option for white families, a notion she’s never agreed with. “There were definitely a lot of myths – as though those of us who were homeschooling were ‘Benedict Arnolds’ after Martin Luther King Jr fought so hard for public education. But as parents we didn’t wrap our heads around any of that. We just wanted the best possible education for our son,” she says.

More recently, Burges has encountered more families who are interested in homeschooling not because they’re fleeing public schools, but because they can give their children the educational experience they deserve at home. With more Black families opting in than ever before, children can also find the community they need to thrive.

“Nowadays homeschooling is a much more sophisticated option,” Burges says. “We’re no longer the mom sitting at the kitchen table homeschooling children. You’re seeing moms and dads teaching on cruise ships, grandparents homeschooling kids, families coming together at local parks.”

(cont. at link)
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/feb/09/homeschooling-black-families-parents-us?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[Chip]

Good example of Republican distrust of science and the effort to control what's taught.

Bill would ban the teaching of scientific theories in Montana schools

Montana Public Radio
Ellis Juhlin
February 7, 2023

A bill in the state Legislature seeking to regulate science curriculum in public schools got its first hearing Monday. The legislation’s sponsor says by banning scientific theories, the policy aims to prevent kids from being taught things that aren’t true.

More than 20 people testified against Senate Bill 235, concerned that it could keep teachers from including gravitational theory, evolution and cell theory in curriculum.

Mia Taylor is a sophomore at Helena High School. She told the committee, "If we remove scientific theory from science curriculums, what can be taught will be limited. It is the school's job to educate its students."

The bill is sponsored by freshman Republican Senator Daniel Emrich from Great Falls. In his testimony, Emrich said the bill would make sure students are taught what a scientific fact is. "If we operate on the assumption that a theory is fact, unfortunately, it leads us to asking questions that may be potentially based on false assumptions," Emrich said.

A legal note from legislative staff says the bill could overstep the Board of Public Education’s constitutional authority to oversee schools in the state.

The committee did not take immediate action on the bill.

https://www.mtpr.org/montana-news/2023-02-07/bill-would-ban-the-teaching-of-scientific-theories-in-montana-schools

[TSherbs]

That Montana guy doesn't know what the fuck he is talking about.

[Chuck Naill]

No disciple of Jesus would work to remove science from a curriculum. Science does not threaten Jesus or Jesus threaten science. As J.I Packer noted, the Bible is not a science book. Science books are not books that teach people how to live and have a good life. If someone can point me to where prudence, temperance, fortitude, and justice can be found in a science book, I am interested in obtaining that book.

[Chip]

The bill is pure right-wing messaging, to the effect that any sort of knowledge that contradicts or threatens their beliefs (or the interests of the industries who bankroll this BS) is just a "theory" rather than an established fact. Hence, such deniers (including the infamous Jordan Peterson) always refer to climate change as merely a theory, as if proof was lacking or faulty. Depending on the context, other "theories" include critical analyses of racial bias, U. S. history and often, evolution.

The claims of many religions (e.g. life after death, the existence of heaven or hell, resurrection) are by any definition theories.

[TSherbs]

The College Board CEO is in hot water over his false messaging and apparent appeasement of the Florida Department of Education. The CB is a business selling goods and services to states and schools and families. They've been losing accounts for years as the tides have been shifting regarding the value of its services, and now this.

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/3867877-thirty-organizations-call-for-college-board-ceo-to-resign-over-changes-to-ap-african-american-studies-course/

[TSherbs]

A lengthy but interesting Atlantic article on research around the question, Is there any way, broadly, to improve student performance, particularly among the lowest performers (the poor)?

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/06/how-kids-really-succeed/480744/

[Chuck Naill]

What does this have anything to do with the topic? Who can define education?

[Chip]

Who can define education?

You obviously have no clue whatsoever.

[Chuck Naill]

Who can define education?

You obviously have no clue whatsoever.

I'm a complete uneducated person. Where did you do your post HS studies?

[Chip]

Utah State (BS, MS), Univ. Wyoming (MA), Stanford (Post-grad fellow).

[Mık Joger]

My main goal in pursuing education is to acquire knowledge and skills that will enable me to make meaningful contributions to society. Although the path may be challenging at times, I always have academicghostwriter.org (https://www.academicghostwriter.org/) at my disposal to help me achieve my academic goals. With their assistance, I can focus on acquiring the knowledge I need to succeed and feel confident that I have the support to succeed in my academic endeavors.

[dneal]

Spammer Mik must have been hacked. Posting non-spam comments?

I’m sure it will be edited later.

David, you can’t seem to keep your accounts straight.

[TSherbs]

The College Board is back in the news because it says that it has continued revising its AP African American Studies course curriculum...once again. The College Board is in a tough spot (I don't have sympathy for them, however, to be clear) because they are a company that sells a non-essential product to states and school districts, and the product's value is dependent on a kind of agreement between schools and colleges. It is a kind of house of cards built upon and shared mythology (IMO) that is lucratively rewarding to the College Board. That mythology (that these test scores have any intrinsic value and that the courses follow effective pedagogy) has been teetering over the past 20 years, the ACT has developed a credible rival test to the SAT arm of the CB, and many colleges have found their rewarding of college credits for certain results also to be a dubious policy. Other than being a petty spat with a bellicose governor with national aspirations, there is a more fundamental issue here about what material can and should be in a course in African American studies for a school's strongest, and most dedicated high school students. And, if you agree with the College Board, then this material and the course's standards of rigor should represent a college-level course (typically, 1st or 2nd year college). From my point of view, all the material that I have ever seen, even the "possible" topics and authors, were fully appropriate for a course that would receive college credit. Furthermore, these high school students were likely to work harder in that course than many other 1st year college students in their intro level classes.

[Chuck Naill]

Depending on talent, college rigor is not level, nor should it be. We don't give everyone in the Boston Marathon and participation trophy, just the most talented. Yes, these athletes train hard, but training hard aka rigor, is not why they run a 2 hour marathon.

Another issue about education is that it doesn't require students to think beyond getting a good grade. One could take an African American History course and still be a racist. A business major making an A in a business ethics class can become a Donald Trump type businessperson. The point is the education does not necessarily change how one thinks.

I am sure Bret Kavanaugh was a brilliant student. We know Clarence Thomas was benefitted by skin color, even though his moral choices were suspect. Of course, we don't care if the brain surgeon is a racist or cheat as long as he know where to cut and what to do inside the brain. That said, the brain surgeon deserves the sort of education whereby they learn that being a good person increases their likelihood of enjoying a rich life.

Has the goal of education ever been about producing good people so that they and their communities enjoy rich life filled with goodness? Since all human tragedy begins from the human heart, that's the first place to focus.

[Chuck Naill]

"In our culture our educational system has trained us to want it all laid out, because we’ve had to spit it all back on a test."
Dallas Willard.

[TSherbs]

"In our culture our educational system has trained us to want it all laid out, because we’ve had to spit it all back on a test."
Dallas Willard.

Why did you post this? To agree with it? Disagree with it? Was that *your* experience in school? Your children's experience in school? Was that your college experience?

[Chuck Naill]

"In our culture our educational system has trained us to want it all laid out, because we’ve had to spit it all back on a test."
Dallas Willard.

Why did you post this? To agree with it? Disagree with it? Was that *your* experience in school? Your children's experience in school? Was that your college experience?

I found it interesting that a professor would say, Ted. I do tend to agree and posted something about it on a different thread.

For me, education has always, whether intended or not, been about becoming more.

[TSherbs]

My experience as a student (through graduate school) and as a teacher at three different schools, was that learning in those environments was about much more than *only* studying for tests. Entire books and education degree curricula are written about all the other factors and elements of learning, from pre-K through high school and beyond. Twice I was part of a team crafting the mission statement for my school: that document only partially focused on academic success. The rest of it was all about curiosity and character elements. Do some aspects of school accreditation get caught up in testing? Sure. But that is only part of the story, and only part of the time.

[TSherbs]

Here is an opinion column from Tampa on book removal efforts at public libraries:

https://www.tampabay.com/opinion/2023/05/30/book-banning-isnt-culture-war-column/

This, to me, seems contrary to the purpose of "education".

[Chuck Naill]

There is a human practice of thinking those who we do not agree with are incapable of being good people. The Biblical story about being a neighbor is instructive. Jesus used a people who were not respected by the Jews. Today he might use a trans person or homosexual to depict a person. Some may call it the Story of the Good Drag Queen.

There has to be a delineation. There are books that are appropriate and activities that are appropriate depending on the age of the participant. When common sense is considered bigoted, there is a problem.

[TSherbs]

Ah, the fallout of having the Bible banned in some schools. And the hypocritical rats are showing their true purposes (and it's not community control).

I agree with this writer:
https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/2023/06/16/after-bible-was-banned-robert/

[dneal]

Back on topic…

To not end up with this. Well done Randi Weingarten.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsDVwYqs0ws

[dneal]

This probably shouldn’t be a primary goal either.

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[dneal]

Probably not this either.

78450

[dneal]

At this point, schools shouldn't be able to do anything other than the basics unless all their kids are passing state tests.

Latest national test results show striking drop in 13-year-olds’ math and reading scores (https://www.chalkbeat.org/2023/6/21/23767632/naep-math-reading-learning-loss-covid-long-term-trend)

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[dneal]

This sort of thing might be contributing to the declining scores.

78457

[dneal]

Woke Archie’s Ministry of Truth confirms falling student performance, so it’s ok to talk about it now.

NYT: What the New, Low Test Scores for 13-Year-Olds Say About U.S. Education Now
June 21, 2023 (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/21/us/naep-test-results-education.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur)

Full text for those who are scared of links and don’t know how to examine them before clicking.


What the New, Low Test Scores for 13-Year-Olds Say About U.S. Education Now
June 21, 2023
What’s New

The math and reading performance of 13-year-olds in the United States has hit the lowest level in decades, according to test scores released today from the National Assessment of Educational Progress, the gold-standard federal exam.

The last time math performance was this low for 13-year-olds was in 1990. In reading, 2004.

Why It Matters: 13-year-olds missed a crucial time in their schooling.

Performance has fallen significantly since the 2019-2020 school year, when the coronavirus pandemic wrought havoc on the nation’s education system. But the downward trends reported today began years before the health crisis, raising questions about a decade of disappointing results for American students.

The federal standardized test, known as NAEP, was given last fall, and focused on basic skills. The 13-year-olds scored an average of 256 out of 500 in reading, and 271 out of 500 in math, down from average scores of 260 in reading and 280 in math three years ago.

Achievement declined across lines of race, class and geography. But in math, especially, vulnerable children — including Black, Native American and low-income students — experienced bigger drops.

A large body of research shows that most American children experienced academic struggles during the pandemic. It has also been clear that low-income students of color were most heavily affected by school closures and remote learning, which in some districts lasted more than a year.

The latest NAEP results are the federal government’s final major release of data on pandemic learning loss. The scores add to educators’ understanding of the challenges that lie ahead for children of different ages and demographic groups.

The 13-year-olds who took this version of the NAEP exam last fall were 10 years old — and in fourth or fifth grade — when the pandemic began. Many were old enough to participate in remote learning without minute-to-minute adult assistance, as younger children often needed.

But the ages of 10 to 13 are also a crucial period for mastering foundational skills, from multiplication to recognizing a character’s feelings in a short narrative passage.

“The bottom line — these results show that there are troubling gaps in the basic skills of these students,” said Peggy Carr, commissioner of the National Center for Education Statistics, which gives the NAEP exam. “This is a huge-scale challenge that faces the nation.”

Background: The test allows for comparisons across years.

In the highly decentralized American education system, NAEP is one of the few consistent tests given across states lines over many years, making the results easily comparable.

Scores on the exam do not result in any rewards or punishments for students, teachers or schools, making them especially useful for research purposes, since there are fewer incentives to cheat or teach to the test.

Still, some education experts believe there is too much focus on NAEP. They point out that the content of the exams, in many cases, has little overlap with the material that is actually taught in classrooms across the country.

What’s Next

A student survey given alongside the test turned up other interesting results that will keep educators buzzing. The percentage of 13-year-olds enrolled in algebra has declined to 24 percent from 34 percent in 2012. In some districts and states, notably California, there has been a push to equalize math education by placing fewer eighth graders into advanced math.

The percentage of 13-year-olds who reported reading for fun has also declined. Last fall, 31 percent said they “never or hardly ever” read for fun, compared to 22 percent in 2012.

[Chuck Naill]

This sort of thing might be contributing to the declining scores.

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I believe that many are afraid to speak out for fear of being ostracized.

This is from 2009. I read his material as far back as 2006. This is an abstract.

"If the disproportionately high rates of measurable harm manifested by homosexual
relationships were attributable exclusively or even primarily to societal “homophobia,”
then we would expect male-homosexual relationships and female-homosexual
relationships to exhibit the same high rates for the same types of measurable harm.
However, this is exactly what we do not find.
Homosexual males experience disproportionately high numbers of sex partners over
the course of life and of sexually transmitted infections, not only in relation to
heterosexual males but also in relation to homosexual females. The reason for this is not
difficult to imagine. On average men have 7 to 8 times the main sex hormone,
testosterone, than do women. That has an obvious impact on male sexuality, relative to
female sexuality, such that bringing together two men in a sexual union is not exactly a
recipe for monogamy. Incidentally, the polysexual character of male sexuality has been
shown scientifically to be not only a cross-cultural phenomenon but also, to a large
extent, a cross-species phenomenon."

http://www.robgagnon.net/articles/homosexIncestPolyAnalogy2.pdf

[TSherbs]

Christianity? :

The Bible is back in, in Utah...

https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/21/us/utah-davis-school-district-reversal-bible-school-libraries/index.html

[dneal]

Christianity? :

The Bible is back in, in Utah...

https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/21/us/utah-davis-school-district-reversal-bible-school-libraries/index.html

TSherbs seems to be as obsessed with Christianity as he is Trump.

[TSherbs]

Not sure what education is supposed to be at this school. It's clear that inspired poetic expression is not it....

https://www.splcenter.org/news/2023/06/22/georgia-teacher-fired-reading-childrens-book-about-acceptance-class

[Chuck Naill]

Not sure what education is supposed to be at this school. It's clear that inspired poetic expression is not it....

https://www.splcenter.org/news/2023/06/22/georgia-teacher-fired-reading-childrens-book-about-acceptance-class

Have you read the book? This isn't a book for accepting being trans necessarily. It is about not fitting into a stereotype. I have read some reviews. The problem might be to jump to conclusions like having a male child interested in Barbie Dolls means more than it does. Not all boys want to play sports. How many of us did things or couldn't do things because of our parents trying to force things down our throats?

[dneal]

I’m gathering evidence for a hypothesis for why reading and math scores are falling.

This seems to be related to both.

I don’t know why the ‘men’ have menstrual stains, or why it’s necessary to depict.

Maybe an English teacher could answer.

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[Chuck Naill]

Appalachian saying I grew up hearing my grandmother say, “they law”!

[TSherbs]

Interesting WaPo editorial on the importance of universities and colleges staying out of politics and avoiding taking political positions as institutions:

gifted: https://wapo.st/462RANm

[Chuck Naill]

Was reading yesterday of a Palestinian Christian who was not allowed to speak on American campuses. His point was anything that does not support Israel completely is being censored. If I find the link again, I will post. It was sincere and not anti-Israel.

[TSherbs]

Whatever the "purpose" is, a judge in NH just ruled that the state *method* and *amount* of funding violates the state's constitution:

This is probably behind a paywall, I guess:
https://www.seacoastonline.com/story/news/education/2023/11/20/nh-court-states-school-funding-is-too-low-and-unconstitutional/71659339007/?utm_source=npoh-newsletter_dailybriefing&utm_content=daily%20briefing%20-%20portsmouth%20nh&utm_campaign=newsletter_dailybriefing&utm_medium=email&utm_term=adhoc

[TSherbs]

My *education* this morning was to learn that "rizz" is the Oxford University Press word of the year.

[TSherbs]

There is a renewed debate now on some (many?) college campuses about the rights of expression and protest and the proper limits of restraint on harrasment, intimidation, and threats of violence (actual acts of violence are already against the law).

https://thehill.com/homenews/education/4346873-college-presidents-seek-clarify-position-calls-jewish-genocide-blowback/

[dneal]

Ya think?

Maybe it was that congressional testimony from the presidents of Harvard, Penn and MIT? The one the UPenn president just released a video backpedaling on?

Billionaire donors like investor Bill Ackman are posting their opinion (and notice that their donations are cancelled) publicly on social media. Long form paragraph posts and sharing of letters to his alma mater's president.

Legacy media is nothing but narratives, and 24 hours behind the news cycle you can observe directly, in near real time.

[dneal]

Here's Albert Bourla, of Pfizer:


I was ashamed to hear the recent testimony of 3 top university presidents. In my personal opinion, it was one of the most despicable moments in the history of U.S. academia. The 3 Presidents were offered numerous opportunities to condemn racist, antisemitic, hate rhetoric and refused doing so hiding behind calls for “context.” The memories of my father’s parents, Abraham and Rachel Bourla, his brother David and his little sister Graciela, who all died in Auschwitz, came to mind. I was wondering if their deaths would have provided enough “context” to these presidents to condemn the Nazis' antisemitic propaganda.


The universities are out of control, and Wokedom Inc. took a big hit to their profitability.

What's delicious is that the people who've spent a decade calling everyone a Nazi, or "literally Hitler"; are the ones approving the calls for genocide of Jews.

Lefties are insane. You can't make this stuff up.

[kazoolaw]

A report said Princeton could pay off any student debt, and offer free tuition without exhausting its endowment. Reuters reports Harvard’s endowment at over $50 billion, immune from donor boycotts.
Time, instead, to move their donations to other institutions, perhaps like Hillsdale College.

[dneal]

The implication being that the woke folks are sitting on a pile of cash and immune to repercussion?

Anybody is one good civil suit away from financial ruin. I suspect endowments are too.

I wonder if the Jewish people those presidents are ok with advocating the genocide of know any good lawyers.

Is Jewish lawyer even a thing?

[kazoolaw]

Not that broad a statement. But $50B in reserve wouldn’t make me shiver about a disgruntled donor.
But even with civil suits insurance coverage eases the pain.

[dneal]

A class action lawsuit for asian discrimination could put an endowment at considerable risk.

[kazoolaw]

Given reports of literacy rates of less than 30% at grade level, and math rates below 25%, a return to the basics is in order.

[dneal]

Prominent donor Ross Stevens threatened to claw back a $100 million donation. The university’s board of trustees held an emergency meeting Thursday. And the powerful Wharton Board of Advisors that leads the university’s prominent business school called for a leadership change at the university.

Magill remained president after the hastily arranged board gathering concluded Thursday, a source familiar with the proceedings told CNN. But Magill faced a rebellion from Wharton’s Board of Advisors, and a growing coalition of donors, politicians and business leaders who denounced her testimony.

I doubt that endowments will protect university presidents.

[kazoolaw]

And I have to think that $100M would make anyone at least blink, endowment notwithstanding.

[dneal]

UPenn president Liz Magill has resigned - per letter from Scott Bok - Chair, Board of Trustees

-edit-

And now Chair Scott Bok has resigned too.

[TSherbs]

Interesting opinion piece today in the NYT by James Kirchik, calling for the abolishment of all speech restrictions on college campuses (except for those already in the criminal code). I pretty much agree with him. (This does not apply to targeted harrasment cases, etc). One problem I see, though, is that colleges also enroll minors (persons under 18), and to some degree these institutions must take into account that they have minors on their campuses and may have (I am not a lawyer) duties and responsibilities toward their protection and welfare that exceed those toward the adults on their campuses. I don't know. My sense is that the 17/18 year-old-divide can have serious legal ramifications, however. Kirchik does not address this in any way in the piece. I would also imagine that private institutions could have more speech control, should they wish it, than publically funded institutions (again, I am not a lawyer). Anyway, I have felt for some time that colleges have been going too far with this. But I entered college in the late 1970s, and there were protests and sit-ins and sparring going on between the university newspaper and the president and the board frequently. It was not all pleasant, polite, respectful, or fair. It was robust.

[Chuck Naill]

Antisemitism discussions reminds me of racism discussions where various definitions abound.

[kazoolaw]

Given Harvard’s ranking as worst for student free speech and open inquiry, it’s difficult to see how it could honestly make that kind of transition.

https://rankings.thefire.org/rank

[dneal]

Does 'calling for the genocide of _____' fall foul of your institution's code of conduct?

a. Jews
b. Blacks
c. Hispanics
d. Gays
e. Transgender
f. Everything but Jews, you alt-right Nazi.

[dneal]

Harvard president Claudine Gay is apparently a well-documented plagiarist. Half of her 11 published papers, and even her award-winning dissertation.

Certainly not the goal of education, I think.

[724Seney]

Harvard president Claudine Gay is apparently a well-documented plagiarist. Half of her 11 published papers, and even her award-winning dissertation.

Certainly not the goal of education, I think.

The President of Stanford University (an equivalent, venerable bastion of left leaning loonies) was recently fired for "plagiarism." His was, by any measure, a much less flagrant example of plagiarism.

[TSherbs]

WaPo article (gifted) examining why (multiple reasons) elite universities are being attacked by the GOP (and Trump).

https://wapo.st/46VX1hv

I wonder how many of these persons either attended elite private colleges and/or sent their children to one. But that is a side point....

As I have stated elsewhere here, I have long felt that universities have been too squeamish about diversity of opinion around culture, politics, and law. And I actually agree with the movement to tax the wealthiest of them, but I disagree with the exemption for religious universities.

[Chuck Naill]

This is the key, perhaps, to understanding the hearings. "Republican leaders are making clear that they see the present moment as an opportunity to use bipartisan disgust about antisemitism on campuses to push ahead their agenda to force colleges and universities to rein in policies they consider far-left and “woke.”

[724Seney]

This is the key, perhaps, to understanding the hearings. "Republican leaders are making clear that they see the present moment as an opportunity to use bipartisan disgust about antisemitism on campuses to push ahead their agenda to force colleges and universities to rein in policies they consider far-left and “woke.”

What is the source of the quote?
Probably some unbiased, open minded person like TSherbs.
Cuz, if he said it, it must be so. Right Chuck?

[Chuck Naill]

I'd prefer not to answer.

[724Seney]

I'd prefer not to answer.

Ah, your non- answer provides all the information I need.

"Gee whiz Scarecrow, If you only had a brain!"

[kazoolaw]

This is the key, perhaps, to understanding the hearings. "Republican leaders are making clear that they see the present moment as an opportunity to use bipartisan disgust about antisemitism on campuses to push ahead their agenda to force colleges and universities to rein in policies they consider far-left and “woke.”

CN chose the bolded language to acknowledge the pervasive antisemitism on college campuses. Of course antisemitism is a far-left policy at colleges and universities.

[Chuck Naill]

This is the key, perhaps, to understanding the hearings. "Republican leaders are making clear that they see the present moment as an opportunity to use bipartisan disgust about antisemitism on campuses to push ahead their agenda to force colleges and universities to rein in policies they consider far-left and “woke.”

CN chose the bolded language to acknowledge the pervasive antisemitism on college campuses. Of course antisemitism is a far-left policy at colleges and universities.




Maybe, but if you're try to drive a wedge between coastal elites and those somewhere in the middle, this is a gift. Since the 1970's the church people have been trying to argue against secularism in the American University. Oddly, football, remains the biggest thing on campus and the coaches the highest paid state employee. And, Trump tried and is trying to drive the same wedge. Funny how a dude who has cheated his entire life has been able to dupe those in the middle. Who does a rich kid who achieved fame by cheating get into the minds of Evangelicals and Middle America as a hero?

[724Seney]

This is the key, perhaps, to understanding the hearings. "Republican leaders are making clear that they see the present moment as an opportunity to use bipartisan disgust about antisemitism on campuses to push ahead their agenda to force colleges and universities to rein in policies they consider far-left and “woke.”

CN chose the bolded language to acknowledge the pervasive antisemitism on college campuses. Of course antisemitism is a far-left policy at colleges and universities.




Maybe, but if you're try to drive a wedge between coastal elites and those somewhere in the middle, this is a gift. Since the 1970's the church people have been trying to argue against secularism in the American University. Oddly, football, remains the biggest thing on campus and the coaches the highest paid state employee. And, Trump tried and is trying to drive the same wedge. Funny how a dude who has cheated his entire life has been able to dupe those in the middle. Who does a rich kid who achieved fame by cheating get into the minds of Evangelicals and Middle America as a hero?

Looks like somebody is well into their cocktail hour(s)!
hic!

[kazoolaw]

This is the key, perhaps, to understanding the hearings. "Republican leaders are making clear that they see the present moment as an opportunity to use bipartisan disgust about antisemitism on campuses to push ahead their agenda to force colleges and universities to rein in policies they consider far-left and “woke.”

CN chose the bolded language to acknowledge the pervasive antisemitism on college campuses. Of course antisemitism is a far-left policy at colleges and universities.




Maybe, but if you're try to drive a wedge between coastal elites and those somewhere in the middle, this is a gift. Since the 1970's the church people have been trying to argue against secularism in the American University. Oddly, football, remains the biggest thing on campus and the coaches the highest paid state employee. And, Trump tried and is trying to drive the same wedge. Funny how a dude who has cheated his entire life has been able to dupe those in the middle. Who does a rich kid who achieved fame by cheating get into the minds of Evangelicals and Middle America as a hero?

Let's list all the things in CN's post that have absolutely nothing to do with antisemitism: church people, football and football coaches, "Evangelicals," Middle America, and (wait for it) Trump.

All of which are listed to intended to deflect from pervasive antisemitism which both parties acknowledge is a problem. Must be comforting to fearful Jewish students and professors that there's no need to address a problem acknowledged by both parties because Trump.

[dneal]

"Duplicative Language"

*snort*

82029

[TSherbs]

Interesting statistical reporting on book removal requests at schools across the USA (from WAPO, gifted). LGBTQ titles are targeted most often. Racial titles, second.

https://wapo.st/4aMhrNl

[dneal]

"LGBTQ titles"

Curious that they don't mention the comic porn (Shloop!), instruction on masturbation, and what to do if you feel like cutting your tits or pecker off.

Cause there's a supportive English teacher for that.

[Mık Joger]

Very interesting. There's a lot to think about here

[dneal]

Hey look, it’s our old friend Mik!

You can read more about Empty of Clouds (aka: David Jackson) and his spam escapades in this thread:

Dogs eatin’ homework and other tall tales - or how EoC got caught spamming the forum (https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/38447-Dogs-eatin-homework-and-other-tall-tales)

New members should heed the warning in red at the top of the first post, if you don’t like drama.

If you would like more information, David can be found at this link:

https://www.otago.ac.nz/physio/about/people/administration

[724Seney]

Hey look, it’s our old friend Mik!

Certain things in life are predictable!
The return of El Sicko and his many pseudonyms is right there at the top of the list!!

[dneal]

"Return"? Do you think he ever left? His pseudonyms are plenty, and in use. He'll out himself inadvertently at some point with those too. I'm happy to wait.

David - if you want to participate in the forum, you'll have to man up and own your shit. Many won't forgive you. I will, believe it or not. You can earn your place back into the fold. At any rate, I hope you find some peace - but you won't with this quest for revenge.

[724Seney]

"Return"? Do you think he ever left? His pseudonyms are plenty, and in use. He'll out himself inadvertently at some point with those too. I'm happy to wait.

Yes, you are right.
And, we have seen these apparent manic induced flurries all before.
I guess I was thinking more along the lines of the more well known & easily recognized pseudonyms like "Mik Joger."

[kazoolaw]

One goal of education should be to teach educators not to sexually assault students:

https://www.google.com/search?q=teacher+sexual+misconduct&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari

[Wellos]

In my opinion, the purpose of education is different for each person. But in any case, we all strive to receive the best education. I suggest you check out interesting math topics for presentation https://www.customwritings.com/howtowrite/post/presentation-in-mathematics/ and you might want to use these ideas for your presentation. This approach will help you avoid mistakes in choosing a good topic and of course you will be able to successfully complete your math homework.

[Pendragon]

The goal of education is to give people something to do with their fountain pens.

[Chuck Naill]

Learn how to think critically, be objective, and skeptical, not cynical.