Help a newbie with lever filling problem!

[lablandphoto]

This might be a really dumb question. But, I received my first vintage fountain pen in the mail today--a Waterman 52v--from Fountain Pen Hospital. I was able to get some ink in the pen by inserting the nib into a vial of ink with the lever opened to the perpendicular position, and then depressing the lever back down into the closed position. After writing with the pen until the ink seemed to run out, I attempted to run some water through it to rinse out any remaining water by opening and closing the lever again. But now the lever won't close. I attempt to depress it, and it won't close. Am I doing something wrong?

[jar]

First, welcome home. Pull up a stump and set a spell. Waterman Box levers are a bear to work with but it should close smoothly. Don't force it because they really can break. The folk at FPH are great; give them a call and they will tell you how to send it back to get it fixed.

[lablandphoto]

So it's something I can't fix myself? I just bought the thing in good working condition. And it's broken already?

[gbryal]

Post some detailed pictures of it in the open and semi-closed position.

[Jon Szanto]

So it's something I can't fix myself? I just bought the thing in good working condition. And it's broken already?

Stay calm. One of the things is that it is very difficult to diagnose a problem without very clear description, and - better yet - photos. As Jar mentioned, the lever boxes on Waterman pens can be easily broken if not handled appropriately, and then are tough to repair (though certainly can be fixed by the properly trained people). You have a fine, vintage pen, and you don't want to screw it up by attempting something yourself if you *don't* know what you are doing.

I also agree with Jar - give them a call. They may be able to walk you through things on the phone. Again, don't rush this or do anything to make it a worse problem. I'm certain it can be sorted out.

[lablandphoto]

Hopefully these uploaded correctly. I added the attachments.

[Jon Szanto]

Yep, those are very clear photos. I've got to grab a couple of my repair manuals to see what they say, as I've never worked on these pens. I'm certain it can be corrected, but don't force it yourself.

BTW, you might appreciate some of this issues at play by looking at Richard Binder's extensive article on Waterman lever-box repair here (http://www.richardspens.com/ref/repair/leverbox.htm).

[D Armstrong]

Looks to me like it wasn't properly cleaned. The corrosion build-up on the inside perimeter of the box could well be in the pivot, causing the lever to be too stiff. Send it back, ask them to clean out the lever box properly, and ask them to verify that it was serviced on the inside, too, including a new sac. If it's that dirty where it's easy to see, it may not have been done properly on the inside, either.

These are fabulous pens, an absolute joy to write with, and very tough. The lever boxes are not at all fragile, unless they are previously abused (say, by someone trying to force the lever against a hardened sac a number of times). The hard rubber on this one looks to be in great condition, which is scarce. It's well worth your while to stick it out and get it going.

[lablandphoto]

I did call them today and was told to call back tomorrow.

[jar]

It looks like the issue may be with the pressure par rather than the lever box. If you scroll down on this page (http://www.richardspens.com/?page=ref/fillers/lever.htm) you can see a diagram of the Waterman Floating lever system.

The problem is seeing what is happening between the lever and the pressure bar. My guess is that it may have partially slipped out of the groove on the pressure bar but with the info so far that's just a WAG.

[lablandphoto]

This kinda sucks as I paid $225.00 for it. It arrived today. I got some ink in it. And now I'm hearing that it wasn't properly cleaned?

[Jon Szanto]

These are fabulous pens, an absolute joy to write with, and very tough. The lever boxes are not at all fragile, unless they are previously abused (say, by someone trying to force the lever against a hardened sac a number of times). The hard rubber on this one looks to be in great condition, which is scarce. It's well worth your while to stick it out and get it going.

I have to say I am a little surprised to hear you say the above. Dubiel, Binder, and Marshall/Oldfield all write about the inherent weakness of the design: the very small amount of (cast) metal above the pivot hole, which under stress can bend, crack, and break. I had heard this from other repair people as well. I believe this is definitely a reason to not attempt to force that lever back into place.

[Jon Szanto]

This kinda sucks as I paid $225.00 for it. It arrived today. I got some ink in it. And now I'm hearing that it wasn't properly cleaned?

You are hearing that from one person based on two photos. Stay calm. FPH is a reputable place, they should be able to make things right for you.

[jar]

This kinda sucks as I paid $225.00 for it. It arrived today. I got some ink in it. And now I'm hearing that it wasn't properly cleaned?

Don't believe everything you read on the internet.

Talk to the folk at FPH.

[D Armstrong]

This kinda sucks as I paid $225.00 for it. It arrived today. I got some ink in it. And now I'm hearing that it wasn't properly cleaned?

You are hearing that from one person based on two photos. Stay calm. FPH is a reputable place, they should be able to make things right for you.

Heh. One person who has restored hundreds of lever-filled Watermans, and thousands of pens.

I agree, FPH should have a chance to make this right, because they will hopefully be horrified to know that a pen in this condition accidentally left their shop.

And, if it's not done for free, I will repair it for free. Because no one should have this as their first vintage pen experience.

[Jon Szanto]

Heh. One person who has restored hundreds of lever-filled Watermans, and thousands of pens.

David, I *understand* you are not an unknown. It was not meant as a slam, and I'm sorry if it came off that way. I don't see the pen, as shown in those photos, as egregiously bad as you seem to, but there it is. I'm also trying to balance your statement on the robustness of the Waterman leverbox with the rest of the body of knowledge I've seen. Maybe the Canadian air preserves them somehow. :)

[D Armstrong]

These are fabulous pens, an absolute joy to write with, and very tough. The lever boxes are not at all fragile, unless they are previously abused (say, by someone trying to force the lever against a hardened sac a number of times). The hard rubber on this one looks to be in great condition, which is scarce. It's well worth your while to stick it out and get it going.

I have to say I am a little surprised to hear you say the above. Dubiel, Binder, and Marshall/Oldfield all write about the inherent weakness of the design: the very small amount of (cast) metal above the pivot hole, which under stress can bend, crack, and break. I had heard this from other repair people as well. I believe this is definitely a reason to not attempt to force that lever back into place.

I have several thoughts on this, so please bear with me.

First, I have never seen a cast Waterman's lever box, but rather ones made from sheet stock. I would be interested in your reference for that, or seeing an actual example.

Second, I did not suggest forcing it back in place. In fact, I believe I characterized forcing a lever box as "abuse", which would damage it if repeated.

Third, I should point out that we stopped servicing Waterman lever boxes awhile ago, and posted a notice to that effect on our website. The issue being that they are very hard to find in good condition. So I am well aware that they have their failings. They are often previously abused. But when you find a good one, without having been weakened by abuse, it is not fragile. It works well, and it robust relative to the job is was designed to do, namely squishing air and liquid into and out of a soft rubber sac.

Dubiel said (Fountain Pens: the Complete Guide to Repair & Restoration, 4th printing, revised, 2002, p. 21):

...the Waterman design has an obvious weak point. The box has two tiny holes for the lever hinge pin which weakens the box considerably. When pressed against a stiff sac the hinge is forced upward usually deforming or cracking the box frame.

That would be what I said. When you force the lever, it can damage the lever-mounting system. Just like when you force the pinned lever on a Sheaffer, it can bend the plastic on either side of the lever, which happened at least as often as broken Waterman's lever boxes. Does anyone say that a pinned lever is inherently weak? Because it is: when abused it has a very similar dynamic as a metal mount. It's one reason why the lever-fill system was abandoned by most first-tier manufacturers: there is no really robust solution for mounting the lever on the barrel.

Marshall and Oldfield say (Pen Repair, 3rd ed., p.):

The clip and lever box are the weak points.

That is a generalization. In the hundreds of Watermans of this era we have repaired, I have seen two broken clips. Granted, if something will break, it is the lever box, and we have seen many, many more of those. But that is because of abuse, as I noted above. The point being, in this case, that calling something a "weak point" is relative. It seems to me that their statement does not necessarily indicate a general inherent inferiority in a healthy pen, as they do not mention anything about it being weaker in relation to other systems. If you'd like, we could ask Oldfield for a clarification.

Binder says (http://www.richardspens.com/?page=ref/repair/leverbox.htm):


the area of the lever box through which the lever’s pivot pin passes is unfortunately weak, and operating the lever by force when there is an ossified sac in the pen can easily bend the lever box upward and break it at the weak point.

See my comment under Dubiel.

In normal use, in my opinion, Waterman's lever boxes are about as robust as other contemporary filling systems, such as button-fillers (where the pressure bar is often rusted out), or pin-mounted and ring-mounted levers. They are certainly not so fragile that someone with a verified good-condition unit should tiptoe around it.

That being said, if you are buying a pen 'as-is', such as from an online auction site, it will often be damaged. But that goes for many pens, with many filling systems. Just because something is often found damaged doesn't mean that it is inherently weak when it has been looked after properly. And to go around saying that it is categorically so is to scare people away from vintage pens. Which would be a shame, as there are many, many good ones around.

[D Armstrong]

Heh. One person who has restored hundreds of lever-filled Watermans, and thousands of pens.

David, I *understand* you are not an unknown. It was not meant as a slam, and I'm sorry if it came off that way. I don't see the pen, as shown in those photos, as egregiously bad as you seem to, but there it is. I'm also trying to balance your statement on the robustness of the Waterman leverbox with the rest of the body of knowledge I've seen. Maybe the Canadian air preserves them somehow. :)

Heh. Saw this after my volley, above. I appreciate your gracious comment.

That being said, I would be ashamed to have this pen go off my bench. I'm not perfect, and I've made mistakes. But there would be a sonic boom getting that pen back to me, and it would be done without any charge, the postage would be covered, and there would be no arguments or excuses.

Part of my reaction is that someone new to vintage pens has had a bad experience which plays to all of their perceived weaknesses. Fragility. Expense. Ennui. I fight those perceptions, vigourously and regularly.

Vintage pens are easily the equal of modern pens; often they exceed them in quality. They are a fraction of the cost. And they are increasingly considered to be quaint, to be a token part of a collection. I hate that attitude, and consider it to be something to be fought with education.

I'm not kidding, if FPH doesn't make this right I'll fix it for free. And our friend lablandphoto (who is hopefully reading this, aren't you?) will end up with the fine, fine pen he paid for. (Corrected: she, she paid for.)

[penwash]

This might be a really dumb question. But, I received my first vintage fountain pen in the mail today--a Waterman 52v--from Fountain Pen Hospital. I was able to get some ink in the pen by inserting the nib into a vial of ink with the lever opened to the perpendicular position, and then depressing the lever back down into the closed position. After writing with the pen until the ink seemed to run out, I attempted to run some water through it to rinse out any remaining water by opening and closing the lever again. But now the lever won't close. I attempt to depress it, and it won't close. Am I doing something wrong?

Fill a little container with water. Insert the nib, and pull the lever to 90 degrees perpendicular to the barrel. Do you see air bubbles?
If the sac is good/new, there will be some air bubbles, and when you as much as move the lever back towards the barrel, the lever should snap into closed position (or almost so).

If neither of these happens, I'd suspect the sac. Plus you said that you wrote with the pen until the ink seemed to run out, how many pages did you wrote? If it's just a couple of lines, then it's more proof that the sac is not taking ink.

[lablandphoto]

I looked and researched for a long time before I decided to bite the bullet and order a vintage pen. I decided not to with Ebay or an individual seller, for fear of getting a bum pen as my first vintage pen. So I decided to go with a reputable business that actually had a brick and mortar store. And while I consider myself very handy at making repairs of all kinds on lots of different things, I wasn't expecting to have to deal with a broken pen after the FPH site listed it in excellent condition. I understand things happen. So I am willing to give FPH the benefit of the doubt that they will make it right. But yeah, it's a total bummer. But I'm hoping I end up with the pen I had hoped for. --Julie

[Jon Szanto]

Heh. Saw this after my volley, above. I appreciate your gracious comment.

I snipped the rest of your quote, but only for brevity: I am with you pretty much all the way on the rest of your comments. I think these are the kind of moments where typing in a text entry box and spewing the electrons is so perilous in getting our true thoughts out there. I hope the pen is righted, promptly, and yes, this pen is a fine article and should be kept and admired and used. No reputable dealer should want to have issues like this, and I'm wanting the best for the OP.

As to our initial discord on the fragility of the lever boxes, I bow to your former work on them, and could only fall upon the sources which, I think you'll agree, are respected ones. You reference Marshall/Oldfield, so I'm assuming you simply missed the following, from pg. 133 of the 3rd ed:


Why they fail
First, the lever boxes were cast and in general, while cast metals resist deformation, they are brittle and on a micro level they are likely to be porous. Second, when the lever is used the forces on a thin section above the pivot hold are sometimes too great and the frame cracks, causing the pivot and lever to be pulled out.

So, that was my source for the information regarding the frame being a cast metal; whether this was not common, only in certain models, or something else, I cannot say, but I've usually felt comfortable with the writings of these two gentlemen. The second part was where I was referencing force, maybe ineptly. I didn't really mean a ham-fisted application of brute strength, but simply the force necessary to operate the lever. Any unclarity is most likely my fault.

To conclude, bonus points to you for not only your desire, but offer, to make things right. We all want vintage experiences to be good ones for new users, because it can bring so much joy. Unfortunately, many variables can lead to an unfortunate "first date", one that can sour a person on great pens of the past. We need to let that happen as seldom as possible.

[D Armstrong]

I think these are the kind of moments where typing in a text entry box and spewing the electrons is so perilous in getting our true thoughts out there.

Heh heh. Spoken like a man who uses his true name to post!

I say we gang up on Julie and make sure it's a great experience...

[kirchh]

Waterman level boxes are indeed fragile. Lever mechanisms on Watermans are found broken more often than those on any other top-tier make. The pinned lever arrangement (Sheaffer's earlier design) is also fragile when used on the earlier hard rubber pens; it's a bit more robust on celluloid pens, and the later design with a snap-ring pivot is far sturdier. But in any event, it is quite accurate to characterize the Waterman design as fragile, to which the boxes of barrels with broken levers found in the stocks of experienced repairpeople and dealers amply attest.

--Daniel

[kirchh]

This might be a really dumb question. But, I received my first vintage fountain pen in the mail today--a Waterman 52v--from Fountain Pen Hospital. I was able to get some ink in the pen by inserting the nib into a vial of ink with the lever opened to the perpendicular position, and then depressing the lever back down into the closed position. After writing with the pen until the ink seemed to run out, I attempted to run some water through it to rinse out any remaining water by opening and closing the lever again. But now the lever won't close. I attempt to depress it, and it won't close. Am I doing something wrong?

You've gotten some good advice already, but I'd say that as a general practice, if you buy something and have an issue with it, your first inquiry should go to the seller.

--Daniel

[lablandphoto]

I thank you all for your comments and advice. I have spoken with FPH and am sending the pen off for repair, and am excited to have the pen returned to me in glorious working condition. And let it be known, I am no wilting flower in the face of mechanical difficulties. I have repaired everything from a Pilot Custom Heritage 912 taking a dive nib down onto my kitchen floor, to a broken Apple Macbook display with all of those millions of tiny screws, to a 1977 Yamaha XS650 that wouldn't run. So a broken lever on a writing instrument doesn't scare me away from this hobby which continues to give me so much pleasure. I'm already looking to add another vintage pen, as I very much enjoyed my writing experience (albeit brief!) with a lovely flexible Waterman nib.

[D Armstrong]

I'm assuming you simply missed the following, from pg. 133 of the 3rd ed:


Why they fail
First, the lever boxes were cast and in general, while cast metals resist deformation, they are brittle and on a micro level they are likely to be porous. Second, when the lever is used the forces on a thin section above the pivot hold are sometimes too great and the frame cracks, causing the pivot and lever to be pulled out.


Oho! I did, indeed! Now I wonder where they came up with that information? And I wonder if that includes North American production? And does this include later-production boxes from the 40s that are rarely seen broken in the same way? The problem with casting is that the finished product is fully annealed, thus quite soft. And it's quite hard to work-harden something as complex in form as a lever box.

In any case, thanks for the reference.

And Julie, I have no doubts as to your competence (I shudder to think of servicing any Apple product, from the few times I have tried!) And I'm glad you have been able to work things out there. Do let us know how it turns out.

[lablandphoto]

Thank you! I certainly will.

[lablandphoto]

I've got the pen back from FPH. And I'm happy to report that it was fixed promptly, with an apology from FPH about the malfunctioning lever. It works perfectly now. And I adore writing with my new, vintage Waterman pen.

[Jon Szanto]

I've got the pen back from FPH. And I'm happy to report that it was fixed promptly, with an apology from FPH about the malfunctioning lever. It works perfectly now. And I adore writing with my new, vintage Waterman pen.

This really makes my day. I'm very happy for you, and glad that it all worked out!

[jar]

Glad all is fine.

[D Armstrong]

That's great! Enjoy it, these are great pens.

Word of warning: to maintain the great original black and shine, don't ever immerse this pen. You can clean it with a wet cloth, or even rinse the cap in cool water if it's particularly inky, but dry it off right away when you are done, inside and out. Avoid warm water and sunlight especially, otherwise you will end up with a dull, olive pen. : (

[kirchh]

Hard rubber that has been compromised by exposure to light containing UV wavelengths will discolor instantly on contact with water of any temperature. Don't immerse any hard rubber part of the pen in water excepting the gripping section, which has generally been protected from light due to the cap's covering it.

--Daniel

[Blue Note]

This thread is starting to look somewhat unfair to FPH, which, by all I have read is a very reputable member of the fountain pen community. I really think that they should have been given the first opportunity to respond and to make things right for the purchaser I think that lablandphoto should have immediately informed FPH of the problem rather than bringing the problem here to be solved by people who do not have full information and access to the pen. I know there is a huge amount of expertise here among the membership, but the only people who can ultimately make this right are those at FPH, and they should be given that opportunity before their good reputation is sullied. S**t happens. Just sayin'.

[Blue Note]

Oh, darn. I did not see the second page of the thread before I chimed in. Glad to hear it is all resolved to your obvious satisfaction, lablandphoto. Please disregard my previous premature comments. Cheers.