Legal Documents

[mookie2112]

So......in terms of Law, official documents should ONLY be signed in Blue (sovereignty) or Purple (royalty). Black is *not* a good choice, as signing in black means you are a "dead entity". That's not to say you cannot sign in black.....most people do, but black stands for dead entity.

I'm very surprised ink sellers don't have more permanent inks on catalog. Noodler's has the biggest collection of perm ink.....or, the term "bulletproof".

A lot of permanent inks are really just water resistant, but only Noodler's has real bulletproof qualities.

I've been meaning to try the Montblanc perm ink.......I'll buy some next month, but is it water resistant or real bulletproof?


Any other inks (blue and purple) that are seriously bulletproof? I think Diamine has some water resistant shades, but I don't think it's true bulletproof.

[VegHead]

MB Permament Ink is not bulletproof imo. I use Super5 Darmstadt though and extremely happy with its performance.

[Nomdeplume]

Noodler's Legal Lapis is a very interesting bullet-proof...Blue, as the Lapis attests, but it leans heavily to the green-side.

[BayesianPrior]

Thanks for making me learn about the sovereign citizen movement! I learn something new every day. :thumb:

[Jon Szanto]

Nothing is better than something built for purpose:

"Welcome to Ecclesiastical Stationery Supplies. ESS is your supplier of Registrars’ Ink. We are the authorized supplier of the special Blue-Black archival quality ink. It is the Ink that is required for official documents such as Birth certificates, Death Certificates and on Clergy rolls. We offer a fast, Worldwide, delivery service on our Registry Ink products."

ESSRI (http://www.registrarsink.co.uk/registrars_ink.html)

I've used this for a number of years, and it really is the perfect product for its intended use. I don't know how "bulletproof" it is, but I also like Namiki Blue, which is very waterproof without ever advertising it, and is so well-behaved that it is one of my two go-to blue inks.

For your consideration.

[oldstoat]

Under which jurisdiction is the choice of inks limited to blue and purple, and where is the source for that?
I can say from personal observation thar Registrars of Births, Deaths and Marriages in England use Registrar's Ink but have never noticed other legal people being too fussy. Mostly solicitors and barristers seem to use the first ballpoint they can lay their hands on.

[Pterodactylus]

I also never heard about something like a color guidance. ;)


Define "Bulletproof", this is just a marketing slogan from the brand "Noodlers" nothing more.

There are many permanent inks suitable for any kind of documents which will last many decades or even centuries.
For sure much longer than your lifetime.

As Jon said, beside others any iron gall ink will be more than suitable.

If you search for a criteria and a proof of how permanent an ink is , don't use/define it with marketing slogans like "bulletproof" from a single Manufacturer as this will tell/proof nothing. beside that that Manufacturer name his permanent inks like that.
Search for certified inks instead e.g. compliant to ISO 12757-2

But for almost every user this is completely irrelevant, any permanent ink will do the job
(and in many cases also non permanent inks.... did you ever tried to remove even non permanent ink completely without a trace and without damaging the paper?)

[Runnin_Ute]

When I refinanced my mortgage I used KWZI iron gall turquoise.

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[carlos.q]

I also never heard about something like a color guidance. ;)



In a conversation with a german FPN member, he explained that in old Prussian army tradition, the color of the ink was related to a specific hierarchy:

In modern day German military headquarters or bureaucracy you often have more than just three layers of hierarchy. Therefore more colours have been introduced.

In the Army the standard setup is:

Green = Commanding officer or general
Red = Deputy Commander
Magenta = Chief of Staff
Brown = Head of Branch
Blue = Head of Sub-Branch
Blue = everyone else

:focus:

[FredRydr]

When I refinanced my mortgage I used KWZI iron gall turquoise.
For that, I plan to use disappearing ink.

Fred

[Jon Szanto]

When I refinanced my mortgage I used KWZI iron gall turquoise.
For that, I plan to use disappearing ink.

Fred

I'd consider KWZ Thief's Red.

[The Good Captain]

Noodler's Legal Lapis is a very interesting bullet-proof...Blue, as the Lapis attests, but it leans heavily to the green-side.

As does the UK exclusive, 'Prime of the Commons'.

[mookie2112]

Thanks for making me learn about the sovereign citizen movement! I learn something new every day. :thumb:

The term "sovereign citizen" is wrong. One is either sovereign, OR they are a citizen. A citizen is a "subject" to something. A sovereign is subject to no one.

[mookie2112]

Under which jurisdiction is the choice of inks limited to blue and purple, and where is the source for that?
I can say from personal observation thar Registrars of Births, Deaths and Marriages in England use Registrar's Ink but have never noticed other legal people being too fussy. Mostly solicitors and barristers seem to use the first ballpoint they can lay their hands on.

Just going by what a judge told me. Basically, one can use any ink they want, but for true meaning: blue = sovereign, purple=royal, black=dead.

[WallyRussell]

I always recommend to clients that they not use black ink on legal documents simply because it helps distinguish the original document from a photocopy.

[mookie2112]

I also never heard about something like a color guidance. ;)


Define "Bulletproof", this is just a marketing slogan from the brand "Noodlers" nothing more.

There are many permanent inks suitable for any kind of documents which will last many decades or even centuries.
For sure much longer than your lifetime.

As Jon said, beside others any iron gall ink will be more than suitable.

If you search for a criteria and a proof of how permanent an ink is , don't use/define it with marketing slogans like "bulletproof" from a single Manufacturer as this will tell/proof nothing. beside that that Manufacturer name his permanent inks like that.
Search for certified inks instead e.g. compliant to ISO 12757-2

But for almost every user this is completely irrelevant, any permanent ink will do the job
(and in many cases also non permanent inks.... did you ever tried to remove even non permanent ink completely without a trace and without damaging the paper?)



"Bulletproof" is basically everything proof. Waterproof, alcohol-proof, bleach-proof, UV light proof, laser-proof, etc.

[titrisol]

In the 90s I signed a few legal documents, at that time I had Pelikan 4001 Koningsblau as my everyday ink.. if the signatures have faded by now am I still liable ???
:baby:



When I refinanced my mortgage I used KWZI iron gall turquoise.
For that, I plan to use disappearing ink.

Fred

[gbryal]

I am still wondering how dead people sign anything, using black ink or any other kind of ink. Spooky!

[naimitsu]

Interestingly enough, I got it drilled in my head to never sign your name in Red.
According to my family, in Chinese culture, the use of red ink for a name indicates that the person is deceased. If you weren't and used read, it's a bad omen.
Though not sure about the chop seals with their names on them... the red rule might also apply. I haven't looked into it, so if someone else who knows would clarify, that'd be great ;)

[WmEdwards]

I always recommend to clients that they not use black ink on legal documents simply because it helps distinguish the original document from a photocopy.

This is the "rule of thumb" for every U.S. law office with which I am familiar. Blue means "original signature."

[Paddler]

Interestingly enough, I got it drilled in my head to never sign your name in Red.
According to my family, in Chinese culture, the use of red ink for a name indicates that the person is deceased. If you weren't and used read, it's a bad omen.
Though not sure about the chop seals with their names on them... the red rule might also apply. I haven't looked into it, so if someone else who knows would clarify, that'd be great ;)

I have seen small inking pads inked with vermilion (a bright red pigment made from cinnabar) sold for use with chop seals. It was touted as the traditional way to use the seal. I have no idea if that is correct, based on custom or tradition.

[titrisol]

Latino culture has the same rules.... no siganture in red as that is disrespectful

IN Ecuador to this day ONLY blue is legal, no black, pruple, green, etc. Only Blue



Interestingly enough, I got it drilled in my head to never sign your name in Red.
According to my family, in Chinese culture, the use of red ink for a name indicates that the person is deceased. If you weren't and used read, it's a bad omen.
Though not sure about the chop seals with their names on them... the red rule might also apply. I haven't looked into it, so if someone else who knows would clarify, that'd be great ;)

[gbryal]

I read somewhere that legal firms still use Word Perfect. I wonder if that is why they don't know about color photocopiers.

[Scooby921]

I use Montblanc Permanent Blue regularly and it's quite permanent. Of course if you try to wash it off before the ink has time to absorb into the paper and dry you'll remove a little bit of it, but if you give it a minute or two and then run it under the faucet you'll find it quite permanent. I've done a few permanence tests and it generally looks the same before and after running water over it.

[Hawk]

I always recommend to clients that they not use black ink on legal documents simply because it helps distinguish the original document from a photocopy.

This is the "rule of thumb" for every U.S. law office with which I am familiar. Blue means "original signature."

When I worked in the nuclear power plant industry, I always wrote in blue. Someone in their infinite wisdom decided that black was the only color ink that could be used. I asked why. The answer was that blue didn't Xerox (copy). I used the copier in the office and the blue ink copied perfectly. My reply was that the blue demonstrated it was an origional document. I still had to use blue. That was in the 70’s.

[AndyYNWA]

I use Sailor Sei-boku when I need the ink to be waterproof and fade resistant.
It's a really nice blue with a touch of teal to it.


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[Scooby921]

Here's a water permanence test from a few months ago including three Montblanc permanent inks. Note the black was out of a dip nib and went on really thick. Ran it under the faucet for a good 30 seconds and then let it sit for a bit before snapping the photo. And for what it's worth the permanent grey was a Visconti dreamtouch, which are known for being really wet nibs.

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z297/bwithorn/Pens/C3902CEC-47FA-48CD-AE45-4C8B1FF83E59_zpszt9fkjmb.jpg

[WmEdwards]

I read somewhere that legal firms still use Word Perfect. I wonder if that is why they don't know about color photocopiers.

We have multiple color copiers. But still observe the convention of using blue ink for original signatures.

[mrcharlie]

Just going by what a judge told me. Basically, one can use any ink they want, but for true meaning: blue = sovereign, purple=royal, black=dead.
Given that rules/laws about this sort of thing vary state by state in the U.S, and that a large percentage of people using this forum are from countries other than the U.S., it might be helpful if you would answer the original question (ie What jurisdiction?).

My only dealings with signing any documents that involved a lawyer were a couple years ago in Michigan, U.S.A., and the lawyer involved said that there were no legal requirements as to color of ink used. FWIW, most people were using some generic office supply store brand of gel pen, and I was using Hero 232 Blue Black.

I have been told by lawyers of my acquaintance (a bunch of people I knew in college ended up as lawyers somehow) from other states that their state specifically required a certain color or colors for legal forms submitted to the state, or forbade some specific color.

I have heard "wive's tales" about signing checks or contracts with red ink meant they weren't actually valid. I did not believe it and have asked a lawyer--a very good lawyer that I trust--about this. The lawyer verified that this was not correct.

[mookie2112]

I always recommend to clients that they not use black ink on legal documents simply because it helps distinguish the original document from a photocopy.

This is the "rule of thumb" for every U.S. law office with which I am familiar. Blue means "original signature."



Judges do not sign in blue....they sign in black. A judge is a "dead entity".

For instance the man, John Doe would sign in Blue, whereas the Judge John Doe signs in black.

The Judge is a fictional entity until it is assumed by a man, in this case, John Doe.

[Mık Joger]

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[Chrissy]

Jog on spammer ^^^

[snowbear]

I spent some time as a Background Investigator and we had applicants use black ink, while we used red (to distinguish what we wrote from the applicants' writing).