International shipping - what gives with the refusal to ship across borders?

[FredRydr]

Why do so many of my American colleagues refuse to ship pens across borders? In the last decade, I've only had three bad pen shipping experiences out of hundreds, the worst of which was to California when UPS crushed a box containing a green striated Montblanc 146. I still ship to California. One pen disappeared en route from Italy to me, but I still buy pens from Italy. There are probably more shipments gone bad I can't recall, because they were so minor or easily resolved. C'mon, one shipment gone astray is not proof that all shipments across national borders are condemned to failure. Does anyone know how to use registered mail and similar tracked services anymore? If a buyer in Kuala Lumpur wants your pen, let the buyer decide how much protection they want; shipping risk is their responsibility to choose (except when selling through eBay, but let's not get into eBay's crazy rules).

And then there are those who post that they will only ship to CONUS (i.e., continental United States). What's that all about? Hawaii doesn't count? No USVI or Puerto Rico or APO or Guam, etc? The cost is the same for a flat rate box if it's across town or to Honolulu!

Fred

[alaskazimm]

Why do so many of my American colleagues refuse to ship pens across borders? In the last decade, I've only had three bad pen shipping experiences out of hundreds, the worst of which was to California when UPS crushed a box containing a green striated Montblanc 146. I still ship to California. One pen disappeared en route from Italy to me, but I still buy pens from Italy. There are probably more shipments gone bad I can't recall, because they were so minor or easily resolved. C'mon, one shipment gone astray is not proof that all shipments across national borders are condemned to failure. Does anyone know how to use registered mail and similar tracked services anymore? If a buyer in Kuala Lumpur wants your pen, let the buyer decide how much protection they want; shipping risk is their responsibility to choose (except when selling through eBay, but let's not get into eBay's crazy rules).

And then there are those who post that they will only ship to CONUS (i.e., continental United States). What's that all about? Hawaii doesn't count? No USVI or Puerto Rico or APO or Guam, etc? The cost is the same for a flat rate box if it's across town or to Honolulu!

Fred

And Alaska!

[VegHead]

I asked this same question a few months back ... And I still don't understand the reluctance to ship o/s from the US.

I have retracted my remark regarding the word 'rude' lest I offend anyone.

Cheers.

[Frank]

Why do so many of my American colleagues refuse to ship pens across borders? In the last decade, I've only had three bad pen shipping experiences out of hundreds, the worst of which was to California when UPS crushed a box containing a green striated Montblanc 146. I still ship to California. One pen disappeared en route from Italy to me, but I still buy pens from Italy. There are probably more shipments gone bad I can't recall, because they were so minor or easily resolved. C'mon, one shipment gone astray is not proof that all shipments across national borders are condemned to failure. Does anyone know how to use registered mail and similar tracked services anymore? If a buyer in Kuala Lumpur wants your pen, let the buyer decide how much protection they want; shipping risk is their responsibility to choose (except when selling through eBay, but let's not get into eBay's crazy rules).

And then there are those who post that they will only ship to CONUS (i.e., continental United States). What's that all about? Hawaii doesn't count? No USVI or Puerto Rico or APO or Guam, etc? The cost is the same for a flat rate box if it's across town or to Honolulu!

Fred

Good topic Fred! Yes, the US shipping rate is the same regarding any US destination- including AK and HI, as well as APO locations....

The cost to ship internationally has dramatically risen in recent years. The USPS wants around $25-$35 to ship an International Small Flat Rate Box (About 1-2 pens- maybe). This has affected the ability to sell items overseas. Some dealers do offer discounts enough to make this shipping worthwhile :wink: , but many customers are still reluctant to do business.

I can see the hobby/collector, who sells items only a few times per year, being unable to meet this requirement. I found myself in this situation personally a couple years back! This was another reason why I decided to turn my hobby into a retail business. (You can deduct these expenses a lot easier when you are a professional dealer)

Regards,
Frank

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Shipping internationally from the US costs around $12 to $15 for USPS First Class International.

Of all the countries that I've had things shipped from, everything from letters to packages, the only one that consistently gives me grief is the US.

Having engaged (or tried to) in conversation with a number of US sellers I now have my own (private) opinion of exactly why this is so.

[kevmid]

I only sell pens very occasionally but having lived in Europe and Australia and recently moved to the USA, the costs of small packages/flat rate boxes is way higher from the US to ship international than those other countries, so it can put off buyers, so I think Frank has a point. Having moved here I had no idea Hawaii, Alaska etc were the same rate, so maybe it is the extra chance something might go astray when it involves a longer journey - who knows?

My direct experience from living in Italy is the customs are corrupt as I have had valuable packages "disappear" upon arrival at Italian customs and have also had customs officials tell me the paperwork was "incomplete" and it would be an additional amount to clear my goods (always way more than the goods worth), so I would never post anything valuable TO Italy. Post coming FROM Italy is less subject to interference but it is no coincidence some Ebay sellers exclude Italy on their selling exceptions list.

I don't agree it is rude for a seller to define their own market, it might affect the sale but it is their possession so they are free to sell it where they like or where they may think it is easiest to do that.

[Jon Szanto]

Having engaged (or tried to) in conversation with a number of US sellers I now have my own (private) opinion of exactly why this is so.

That is more than a tad unfair. I know for a fact that you and I have exchanged parcels with no issue. At this point I have to but assume that I am included in your private, and negatively implied, opinion.

I've tried, but I don't like getting thrown under the bus. Not fun.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Sorry, Jon. The clear part of my message (or so I thought) was that I held that opinion about the reluctant sellers I've talked to. Just re-reading my other post I now see this wasn't actually all that clear, but that is what I meant.

For the sake of balance, I have had some truly excellent exchanges both to and from the US. Unfortunately those pleasant transactions have been far, far outnumbered by those where I have had some awful responses for even asking about international shipping.



I don't agree it is rude for a seller to define their own market, it might affect the sale but it is their possession so they are free to sell it where they like or where they may think it is easiest to do that.

I agree, and I do the same. However, I always leave the metaphorical door open for a conversation with a keen buyer, and as a buyer myself I have at least always tried to engage sellers with restricted market definitions.



Now, it's been a rough day. I've been in physio (not as staff but as patient this time) and had my ankle manipulated and lasered and now it's all taped up and uncomfortable.

Can I get a hug? :grouphug:

[CaptainRon]

I think many of us are hesitant to ship overseas because we're just plain ignorant about what's involved. It's an unknown and some of us are just unwilling to deal with that unknown. It's a risk and some people just aren't willing to enter into the additional risk and/or figure out what steps are required to ship something overseas.

That was me a couple years ago. After shipping several parcels to friends in Australia, which seems to run about $25 for even a small box, I don't even blink at the thought of shipping something over the pond any longer.

You can even take care of posting everything online thru the USPS website and have the package picked up at your front door. No reason, for me, to hesitate at shipping anywhere in the world. Maybe one day I'll have a pen that's worthy of the additional cost of shipping so far :)

[Sammyo]

I am an Englishman, that has lived in the US and currently lives in Japan. This gives me a very global view of the world. I have very happily made purchases from this very forum whilst living in Japan. However, the second I read "CONUS only" it makes sad, and then just skip the posting like it didn't exist.

There are people here who have openly been very accepting, their only comment being "the shipping would be $XX.XX, as long as you are ok paying it". There are even people who have given me (when they see the cost) multiple options. They have gone out of their way to see how they could reduce the shipping cost to me.

It is disapointing to see "CONUS only", and if I'm completely honest, as far as I am aware it is only the US members that do this. I can't recall ever reading "Europe only" or "Asia only". There are some pens that America has that are hard to get here. I often think that so many people are willing to ship Japan only special LEs to America, but not the other way around.

So again, that is why I just ignore them and move on. Thank you to those that have supported my habit... the world needs more "pen pushers"😝😜

[stub]

In 20 years of sending pens (and other items) back and between the US and here I have never lost a package. I find shipping within the USA far more perilous. Further I always pay more sending to the USA then the sender has been charged to ship me a pen. I have missed out on a quite few really special vintage pens because the seller would not ship to me.

If you use the GSP on eBay I hope you die slowly and painfully with festering boils. Okay maybe that's too harsh. I hope get one of those deep pimples that hurt when you press on them or like pink eye or a canker sore.

[FredRydr]

I think many of us are hesitant to ship overseas because we're just plain ignorant about what's involved. It's an unknown and some of us are just unwilling to deal with that unknown.

I was being too polite to type that, but you've hit the nail on the head. CONUS is as obsolete as paying extra for domestic airmail.

https://www.mysticstamp.com/pictures/stamps_default/USA-C53.jpg

Fred

[sloegin]

As a seller I'm generally held responsible for the delivery of an item. Paypal holds me responsible to provide proof of delivery. So a buyer could assume responsibility, but if the item doesn't arrive change their mind, and there is nothing I can do.

For example: I sell an Esterbrook for $20 and international shipping costs $15. The pen doesn't arrive. The buyer files a claim with paypal. I acquiesced to the buyer's wishes of the cheap international shipping option which doesn't offer proof of delivery. Now I have to refund the buyer for the pen and the shipping, $35. I'm also out the pen, or the $20 I could have sold it for, and my original cost of the pen, and the new sac. So the $20 Esterbrook could end up costing me around $60. Sound fun?

So I've asked buyers to put their money where their mouth is and pay via the gift option which negates their buyer protection (Nobody has taken me up on it). Or pay for the trackable express mail.

[Sammyo]

So I've asked buyers to put their money where their mouth is and pay via the gift option which negates their buyer protection (Nobody has taken me up on it). Or pay for the trackable express mail.

This is an interesting point. In Japan PayPal does not have the "gift" or "friends/family" option that I had in other countries I have lived. It is actually impossible for me to do that... PayPal say they are looking to introduce it "sometime in the future", but who knows when that is. However, I always opt for the tracked, express mail... why would I take a chance on something I want?!?

I agree with some of your points. However, if the buyer understands the risks and you can produce written evidence that they accepted those risks... does that not protect the seller? I'll be honest, I don't know... but you'd think it would!

[datainadequate]

Outside the world of pens, US sellers I like and respect have decided not to offer international shipping because prospective international buyers end up being more upset when informed of the shipping cost than when told it simply isn't an option. These sellers concluded that they simply weren't going to get any international sales as a result of international shipping costs, and that offering it was wasting everybody's time and emotional energy.

Part of the problem is that we have mental expectations as to what percentage of an item's value is "reasonable" to add on for shipping. That expectation tends to be set by the domestic postage rate of the country we live in. When people are told, for example, that it will cost $70 to ship a $50 purchase, oftentimes their reaction is not just that this is unreasonable, but that the seller is being unreasonable. At worst, people sometimes refuse to believe than any postal service could charge such rates, and accuse the seller of trying to defraud them. Under such circumstances, I can hardly blame sellers for simply refusing to discuss the matter.

It does sadden me every time I see "CONUS only" on a sales listing, but I just have to remind myself that I might be just as sad if I were to discover what the international shipping rate would be.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

The reason why I hold a certain amount of negativity toward US sellers on eBay is because of the number of times I've been more or less accused of being a scammer. I always ask about shipping. If a seller is uncertain then I give the website address for USPS which clearly states that packages from the US to New Zealand are numbered and tracked from door to door, and furthermore that all my mail is received in a major university where it is all signed for.

Having got that information across, to be told that I am just trying to scam the seller is, well let's say disappointing and leave it at that.

I consider myself a very reasonable person to trade with (though I don't really do much selling) as I am not looking to take advantage of anyone. Recently I sold an item I had in my house for years. It sold for a quite amazing price in the end, and although I had stated the cheapest uninsured shipping on the listing I decided to send it fully insured and tracked at my own expense. Cost me about $60 more in the end.

I think if people are willing to have a conversation then some arrangement can be made. I'd encourage that.

[Chrissy]

As a seller I'm generally held responsible for the delivery of an item. Paypal holds me responsible to provide proof of delivery. So a buyer could assume responsibility, but if the item doesn't arrive change their mind, and there is nothing I can do.

For example: I sell an Esterbrook for $20 and international shipping costs $15. The pen doesn't arrive. The buyer files a claim with paypal. I acquiesced to the buyer's wishes of the cheap international shipping option which doesn't offer proof of delivery. Now I have to refund the buyer for the pen and the shipping, $35. I'm also out the pen, or the $20 I could have sold it for, and my original cost of the pen, and the new sac. So the $20 Esterbrook could end up costing me around $60. Sound fun?

So I've asked buyers to put their money where their mouth is and pay via the gift option which negates their buyer protection (Nobody has taken me up on it). Or pay for the trackable express mail.

On the one hand, I can understand why many sellers make this point. However, there are several methods of shipping with tracking from the US to international destinations, and their prices can vary dramatically. So does everything need to be sent by the very expensive Express Service?

I may be wrong, but to ship from the US to the UK brings up many tracked options. Pens or bottles of ink, generally don't come in large boxes, or weigh heavy weights, so the USPS 'Small packet' rate would usually apply.

I have bought several pens from a US seller on FPN. He sends them by USPS 1st class International mail, and that's very cheap and offers tracking to the UK. He's happy to use that method, and it obviously works for him, but I know it's not everyone's choice.

When Laura was doing Mystery Ink, she shipped everything by USPS 1st Class International, and she always knew when it had arrived, so I am aware that the service is very quick and very reliable, and is tracked.

In fact, I have never had anything fail to arrive from anywhere in the world. Maybe I've been lucky?

On the other hand, when I sell, I tend to consider how much of a risk I might need to take. If something is only worth $20, I would send it by the least expensive service. If it was worth $200, then I would send it insured. Horses for courses. I personally don't worry so much about charging a buyer lot's of money for shipping and insuring an item that's only worth $20.

I would also never ask for someone to pay me by PayPal 'friends and family'. That's not so much 'putting one's money where one's mouth is.' It's not allowed by PayPal, and if I did something that they didn't allow, I might lose my account.

On the other hand, when I've had a friend with whom I've exchanged ink bottles or samples, or paid for something to be shipped from a friend, I'm more than happy to send some funds as a 'friends and family' payment. I think there's a subtle difference.

Ebay sellers seem to have different rules. Lots of them use the hated ebay 'Global Shipping Program'. I would never buy from any seller who uses that. I just press the back button, rather than trying to enter into a discussion. They have chosen that for a reason, and it's not worth my while asking for something different. :)

[stub]

Ebay sellers seem to have different rules. Lots of them use the hated ebay 'Global Shipping Program'. I would never buy from any seller who uses that. I just press the back button, rather than trying to enter into a discussion. They have chosen that for a reason, and it's not worth my while asking for something different. :)

I am not convinced that everyone who uses the satanic GSP has actually thought through what that is like for the buyer. When I tell them what a nightmare it is most are shocked as if hearing this information for the first time and a few sellers, thinking it was just a convenience for them with no ramifications for the buyer were glad to remove items from GSP and sell it Old Skool. Some not but... eBay advertises this to their sellers like it is an awesome win-win-win for everyone. Not everyone is aware how bloody fucking evil it is.

Lest you think I am exaggerating. We have laws here that govern customs, Duty, Vat ... etc. The GSP adds taxes to items that are below the threshold or exempt from them otherwise and is itself expensive to begin with so a $70 Sheaffer Snorkel that would be like $15 in shipping and would sail to your door with out any bullshit at all suddenly get jacked to hell with all these charges you actually don't have to pay because the GSP is so hamfisted it actually doesn't know what the laws are in all the countries it ships too. ack. I have to stop. My blood is boiling. The td;lr on it is that it is just a scam to enrich the company that runs it Pitney Bowes.

[jar]

So I've asked buyers to put their money where their mouth is and pay via the gift option which negates their buyer protection (Nobody has taken me up on it). Or pay for the trackable express mail.

This is an interesting point. In Japan PayPal does not have the "gift" or "friends/family" option that I had in other countries I have lived. It is actually impossible for me to do that... PayPal say they are looking to introduce it "sometime in the future", but who knows when that is. However, I always opt for the tracked, express mail... why would I take a chance on something I want?!?

I agree with some of your points. However, if the buyer understands the risks and you can produce written evidence that they accepted those risks... does that not protect the seller? I'll be honest, I don't know... but you'd think it would!

No, it does not. If the individual uses a credit card through PayPal the all the individual needs to do is dispute the charge with the credit card company and unless the seller can prove delivery the credit card company will support their client.

[FredRydr]

As an aside on "CONUS," the internet and its netcitizens post different meanings, some which would include Alaska and some that don't (CONtinental versus CONtiguous). Wikipedia sums it up as well as any site: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contiguous_United_States

Fred

[jar]

As an aside on "CONUS," the internet and its netcitizens post different meanings, some which would include Alaska and some that don't (CONtinental versus CONtiguous). Wikipedia sums it up as well as any site: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contiguous_United_States

Fred

If there is a question it's simple to just ask the seller if shipments to Hawaii or Alaska or US Territories are considered International. Too often these days it seems people take great pleasure in making their lives far more difficult and painful then necessary by raising a high buck stink when there is a penny dreadful solution.

[Sammyo]

No, it does not. If the individual uses a credit card through PayPal the all the individual needs to do is dispute the charge with the credit card company and unless the seller can prove delivery the credit card company will support their client.

Thanks for the clarification... We live in depressing world, set up to hurt each other and legal system set up to support it... Thank goodness there are still some good people left our there!

[jar]

No, it does not. If the individual uses a credit card through PayPal the all the individual needs to do is dispute the charge with the credit card company and unless the seller can prove delivery the credit card company will support their client.

Thanks for the clarification... We live in depressing world, set up to hurt each other and legal system set up to support it... Thank goodness there are still some good people left our there!

But wait, there's more.

If it is a debit card then it's most likely they cannot dispute the issue except through the issuing bank the debit is drawn on. In that case all bets are off and the outcome is really up to individual jurisdictions.

[sloegin]

On the one hand, I can understand why many sellers make this point. However, there are several methods of shipping with tracking from the US to international destinations, and their prices can vary dramatically. So does everything need to be sent by the very expensive Express Service?

I may be wrong, but to ship from the US to the UK brings up many tracked options. Pens or bottles of ink, generally don't come in large boxes, or weigh heavy weights, so the USPS 'Small packet' rate would usually apply.

I have bought several pens from a US seller on FPN. He sends them by USPS 1st class International mail, and that's very cheap and offers tracking to the UK. He's happy to use that method, and it obviously works for him, but I know it's not everyone's choice.

When Laura was doing Mystery Ink, she shipped everything by USPS 1st Class International, and she always knew when it had arrived, so I am aware that the service is very quick and very reliable, and is tracked.

In fact, I have never had anything fail to arrive from anywhere in the world. Maybe I've been lucky?

On the other hand, when I sell, I tend to consider how much of a risk I might need to take. If something is only worth $20, I would send it by the least expensive service. If it was worth $200, then I would send it insured. Horses for courses. I personally don't worry so much about charging a buyer lot's of money for shipping and insuring an item that's only worth $20.

I would also never ask for someone to pay me by PayPal 'friends and family'. That's not so much 'putting one's money where one's mouth is.' It's not allowed by PayPal, and if I did something that they didn't allow, I might lose my account.

On the other hand, when I've had a friend with whom I've exchanged ink bottles or samples, or paid for something to be shipped from a friend, I'm more than happy to send some funds as a 'friends and family' payment. I think there's a subtle difference.

Ebay sellers seem to have different rules. Lots of them use the hated ebay 'Global Shipping Program'. I would never buy from any seller who uses that. I just press the back button, rather than trying to enter into a discussion. They have chosen that for a reason, and it's not worth my while asking for something different. :)

Please show me a tracking number that proves delivery. I'm not aware of another option! I'd use it. The small flat rate box ($27ish to most international destinations, Canada is cheaper) does not offer tracking or insurance.

I understand and am sympathetic to the cost of express mail ($65ish) for shipping a $20 pen. It is absurd. There is little I can do about it though. My faith in trusting the whims of the postal services, customs, etc. is small; which is also why I generally pack pens in PVC pipe (you can run over it with a truck and the pen will be fine). So I'm just unwilling to risk money because of somebody's greater faith in the shipping gods.

I'm quite upfront about the gift option negating the buyer's protection. I'm not asking for it to avoid fees. It is going to be more difficult for the buyer to get a refund. I had not considered that it was not available, Sammyo. The only other alternative I can that I can think of is waiting for the time limit to expire, which is also quite absurd.

Everyone (in the US) was automatically opted in to the Ebay global shipping program. You had to manually go in and opt out. So they might not be aware of it!

[jar]

Please show me a tracking number that proves delivery. I'm not aware of another option! I'd use it. The small flat rate box ($27ish to most international destinations, Canada is cheaper) does not offer tracking or insurance.

I understand and am sympathetic to the cost of express mail ($65ish) for shipping a $20 pen. It is absurd. There is little I can do about it though. My faith in trusting the whims of the postal services, customs, etc. is small; which is also why I generally pack pens in PVC pipe (you can run over it with a truck and the pen will be fine). So I'm just unwilling to risk money because of somebody's greater faith in the shipping gods.

I'm quite upfront about the gift option negating the buyer's protection. I'm not asking for it to avoid fees. It is going to be more difficult for the buyer to get a refund. I had not considered that it was not available, Sammyo. The only other alternative I can that I can think of is waiting for the time limit to expire, which is also quite absurd.

Everyone (in the US) was automatically opted in to the Ebay global shipping program. You had to manually go in and opt out. So they might not be aware of it!

Sure the flat rate USPS Priority mail includes tracking and tracking internationally and insurance is always based on the value the shipper assigns.

No one has to use eBay Global shipping, you simply need to check the box that says you are not using it.

PayPal specifically prohibits using the Gift option for commercial transactions. If you ask someone to use it for a purchase you are breaking Paypal's rules.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Please show me a tracking number that proves delivery. I'm not aware of another option! I'd use it. The small flat rate box ($27ish to most international destinations, Canada is cheaper) does not offer tracking or insurance.

I understand and am sympathetic to the cost of express mail ($65ish) for shipping a $20 pen. It is absurd. There is little I can do about it though. My faith in trusting the whims of the postal services, customs, etc. is small; which is also why I generally pack pens in PVC pipe (you can run over it with a truck and the pen will be fine). So I'm just unwilling to risk money because of somebody's greater faith in the shipping gods.


https://about.usps.com/news/national-releases/2013/fs-free-online-tracking.htm


The United States Postal Service is reminding customers that — for no additional charge — online tracking has been added to certain international shipping services for lightweight packages to select countries.

The international shipping services for which free online tracking is available include:

First-Class Package International Service
Priority Mail International Flat Rate Envelopes
Priority Mail International Small Flat Rate Boxes

The free online tracking feature is available for these items sent to Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Belgium, Great Britain, Germany, France, Netherlands, Croatia, Denmark, Spain, Switzerland, Israel and Brazil.

Online tracking information, when available includes the date and time the package:

left the U.S.
was received in the foreign country
was delivered, or delivery-attempted at the final destination address

How to check delivery status:
Senders can check delivery status by going to usps.com and clicking on Track & Confirm or https://tools.usps.com/go/TrackConfirmAction!input.action and use the package barcode tracking number.

Customers wishing to access free online tracking with First-Class Package International Service, Priority Mail International Flat Rate Envelopes, and Priority Mail International Small Flat Rate Boxes must use an online, or electronically generated shipping label through one of the following methods:

USPS-approved PC Postage Providers (Endicia.com, Stamps.com)
usps.com (Click-N-Ship, Click-N-Ship for Business, Webtools apps)
USPS Global Shipping Software (GSS) or other USPS-approved software providers

International Shipping Service Features:
First-Class Package International Service is USPS’ most affordable international service for small packages. Customers may send items weighing up to 4 pounds with a maximum value not exceeding $400. Delivery time varies by destination.

[sloegin]

You are quoting the postal website, great. Please show me a tracking number.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I've got nothing inbound from the US at the moment.

However, when I do buy something the seller gives me the USPS tracking number and then, wonder of the interwebs and all that, I can go to the USPS tracking site and watch my package doing a tour of the lower 48 States before hopping on a plane and flying to New Zealand. I then see it come up on our local postal tracking site where I can see that it is heading for my city, now it's with the local courier, and oh, look at that, there's the courier now with the package in hand and asking for a signature.


So, you're going to have to be a lot more specific in your question. A tracking number is (IIRC) a 10 digit/letter code, like this LZ12345678US.


tl;dr - USPS First Class International provides an online tracking number. You just plug it into the system and away you go. Not sure why this is presenting as a problem.

[KrazyIvan]

I used to be able to get around tracking costs by using the Customs form number as a tracking number. You could actually use that on the USPS tracking website and it would show tracking info. Not anymore. Just sent a package to Germany and the customs number just errored out as not a valid tracking number. :cry:

[sloegin]

I've got nothing inbound from the US at the moment.

However, when I do buy something the seller gives me the USPS tracking number and then, wonder of the interwebs and all that, I can go to the USPS tracking site and watch my package doing a tour of the lower 48 States before hopping on a plane and flying to New Zealand. I then see it come up on our local postal tracking site where I can see that it is heading for my city, now it's with the local courier, and oh, look at that, there's the courier now with the package in hand and asking for a signature.


So, you're going to have to be a lot more specific in your question. A tracking number is (IIRC) a 10 digit/letter code, like this LZ12345678US.


tl;dr - USPS First Class International provides an online tracking number. You just plug it into the system and away you go. Not sure why this is presenting as a problem.
That was rather condescending?

LC12345678US...is a customs form number. I want proof of delivery to an international destination without sending something express mail. Show me a tracking number that offers proof of delivery.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

As I said, I don't have anything inbound right now. My previous US purchases this year have expired numbers that cannot be retrieved.

This is what USPS does, and has consistently done for all my US purchases over the last two years. Every single package had a number that allowed me to track from the point of origin all the way to when it landed on my desk.

Whatever you want to call that number, it still allows complete tracking of the package, including the delivery status or failure to deliver.


Sorry, I just don't know what other kind of proof you want.


Edit:

That was rather condescending?

Perhaps, but please try to understand why this is frustrating me. I have a number that allows me and the seller to track the package. It seemed pretty clear to me. Sorry if you're talking about something completely different that does the exact same thing.

[top pen]

I can understand it from both points of view. It feels like there is a far greater risk of sending it through a network you don't know. I trust the Royal Mail I don't I've had any items simply not turn up I've purchased online, you just don't if the service in the other country similar to a particular courier that begins with a "H" in the UK. However I can't really understand there being a problem if the buyer is willing to pay for Tracked shipping.

[jar]

I've got nothing inbound from the US at the moment.

However, when I do buy something the seller gives me the USPS tracking number and then, wonder of the interwebs and all that, I can go to the USPS tracking site and watch my package doing a tour of the lower 48 States before hopping on a plane and flying to New Zealand. I then see it come up on our local postal tracking site where I can see that it is heading for my city, now it's with the local courier, and oh, look at that, there's the courier now with the package in hand and asking for a signature.


So, you're going to have to be a lot more specific in your question. A tracking number is (IIRC) a 10 digit/letter code, like this LZ12345678US.


tl;dr - USPS First Class International provides an online tracking number. You just plug it into the system and away you go. Not sure why this is presenting as a problem.
That was rather condescending?

LC12345678US...is a customs form number. I want proof of delivery to an international destination without sending something express mail. Show me a tracking number that offers proof of delivery.

Actually no, that is not a Customs Tracking number. And you are free to wish in one hand and spit in the other but the fact is that USPS Priority mail does provide tracking as well as proof of delivery. You are of course also free to doubt that in which case you would simply once again be wrong.

In the last month or so I have shipped pens to members here from Japan and Canada and Brazil and currently one pen went through Customs and has arrived in Toronto and should get delivered tomorrow or Saturday (if Canada does Saturday delivery). I have purchased items shipped EMS from Japan with tracking all the way, from Portugal and had tracking all the way, from England but the sender used Registered Mail which means you do NOT get tracking although the item must get signed off every time it changes hands.

Really, this is pretty basic stuff and not anything arcane.

[Jon Szanto]

That was rather condescending?

Perhaps, but please try to understand why this is frustrating me. I have a number that allows me and the seller to track the package. It seemed pretty clear to me. Sorry if you're talking about something completely different that does the exact same thing.

And, having sent a package to EoC that had one of those very numbers on it, which allowed me to track the package all the way, I can verify. So I, too, have no idea why this has become contentious. Unless this stopped happening in the last few months, it really is a thing.

[VegHead]

Recently had a package from Franklin Christoph delivered to me in Australia at their cheapest rate and it was tracked all the way, which was great actually. In fact if memory serves, all my parcels from the US had tracking numbers ... Never lost a parcel either.

[sloegin]

Actually no, that is not a Customs Tracking number. And you are free to wish in one hand and spit in the other but the fact is that USPS Priority mail does provide tracking as well as proof of delivery. You are of course also free to doubt that in which case you would simply once again be wrong.

In the last month or so I have shipped pens to members here from Japan and Canada and Brazil and currently one pen went through Customs and has arrived in Toronto and should get delivered tomorrow or Saturday (if Canada does Saturday delivery). I have purchased items shipped EMS from Japan with tracking all the way, from Portugal and had tracking all the way, from England but the sender used Registered Mail which means you do NOT get tracking although the item must get signed off every time it changes hands.

Really, this is pretty basic stuff and not anything arcane.
It is a customs form number. http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y136/sloegin/P1080015_zpsbtdhtdju.jpg (http://s4.photobucket.com/user/sloegin/media/P1080015_zpsbtdhtdju.jpg.html)

Then you should have no problem coming up with a tracking number to share. That is all I'm asking for, to verify delivery of an international parcel.

[jar]

Actually no, that is not a Customs Tracking number. And you are free to wish in one hand and spit in the other but the fact is that USPS Priority mail does provide tracking as well as proof of delivery. You are of course also free to doubt that in which case you would simply once again be wrong.

In the last month or so I have shipped pens to members here from Japan and Canada and Brazil and currently one pen went through Customs and has arrived in Toronto and should get delivered tomorrow or Saturday (if Canada does Saturday delivery). I have purchased items shipped EMS from Japan with tracking all the way, from Portugal and had tracking all the way, from England but the sender used Registered Mail which means you do NOT get tracking although the item must get signed off every time it changes hands.

Really, this is pretty basic stuff and not anything arcane.
It is a customs form number. http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y136/sloegin/P1080015_zpsbtdhtdju.jpg (http://s4.photobucket.com/user/sloegin/media/P1080015_zpsbtdhtdju.jpg.html)

Then you should have no problem coming up with a tracking number to share. That is all I'm asking for, to verify delivery of an international parcel.

You really like just being wrong don't you?

Tracking numbers appear on mail and international mail also includes guess what, a customs declaration.

As I said, you are free to remain as ignorant as you want but the reality is USPS tracking numbers were both domestically and internationally.



How it works

Post/EMS numbers have the format EE123456789XX


We use the last 2 letters to automatically send the request to the correct country
In some cases we use the 2 first letters to select the type of tracking to use
If the country is not supported or you want to select a specific country you can do this manually after tracking

If you know of any countries offering tracking that is not included please contact us (http://www.track-trace.com/contact)!

[migo984]

It is a customs form number. http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y136/sloegin/P1080015_zpsbtdhtdju.jpg (http://s4.photobucket.com/user/sloegin/media/P1080015_zpsbtdhtdju.jpg.html)

Then you should have no problem coming up with a tracking number to share. That is all I'm asking for, to verify delivery of an international parcel.

That is a tracking number. It is the UPU (Universal Postal Union) S10 number. The UPU S10 standard defines a global system for assigning 13-character identifiers to items for the purpose of tracking and tracing them during shipping. It is worth noting that, dependent on the receiving country, sometimes you have to ask your local postal service to check tracking for you as it isn't always available online direct by customers, but usually it's pretty straightforward to do it yourself.

So all packages with an S10 can indeed be tracked.

UPU number rules
( # Letter, * Digit, ! Letter Or Digit ) (## *** *** *** ##)
Each tracking number consists of 2 letters, 9 digits and the last 2 letters are two-letter country codes of the origin country.


«A» - Mail is not insured (less than 2 kg)
«R» - Registered Mail (less than 2 kg)
«V» - Registered Mail (Insured）(less than 2 kg)
«C» - Ordinary Parcel (more than 2 kg)
«L» - Airmail E-packet (less than 2 kg)
«E» - Express Mail Service (EMS more than 2 kg)


Eg: EX012857277SG is an Express Mail Service(EMS) shipped by Singapore Post.


(The Universal Postal Union is a specialised agency of the United Nations that coordinates postal policies among member nations. It is a world postal international organisation, and the UPU currently has 192 members (190 country states and two joint memberships of dependent territories groups).

[CaptainRon]

Actually no, that is not a Customs Tracking number. And you are free to wish in one hand and spit in the other but the fact is that USPS Priority mail does provide tracking as well as proof of delivery. You are of course also free to doubt that in which case you would simply once again be wrong.

In the last month or so I have shipped pens to members here from Japan and Canada and Brazil and currently one pen went through Customs and has arrived in Toronto and should get delivered tomorrow or Saturday (if Canada does Saturday delivery). I have purchased items shipped EMS from Japan with tracking all the way, from Portugal and had tracking all the way, from England but the sender used Registered Mail which means you do NOT get tracking although the item must get signed off every time it changes hands.

Really, this is pretty basic stuff and not anything arcane.
It is a customs form number. http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y136/sloegin/P1080015_zpsbtdhtdju.jpg (http://s4.photobucket.com/user/sloegin/media/P1080015_zpsbtdhtdju.jpg.html)

Then you should have no problem coming up with a tracking number to share. That is all I'm asking for, to verify delivery of an international parcel.

I'm not sure why you won't believe so many people saying they've received tracking. But since you want proof, here it is.

https://tools.usps.com/go/TrackConfirmAction!input.action?tLabels=LZ96271527 6US

There's a package I sent to Australia. Shows tracking and delivery. And yes, the delivery date is accurate.

https://tools.usps.com/go/TrackConfirmAction?qtc_tLabels1=RL586445572IE

This is a package I had sent to me from Ireland. Shows tracking and delivery to my door.


Settled?

Edit to add a screenshot from USPS

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161209/856f900f2f98504bcd93265000c932c2.jpg

[FredRydr]

This is getting silly.

Fred

[sloegin]

Migo and CaptainRon, thank you for your informative posts.

You see, I don't print postage. I don't even own a printer. Tracking doesn't appear to be available by just taking a parcel to the post office and paying for it there, according to my experience and EoC's quote of the USPS website. So thanks for coming up with a helpful solution.

I think I'm now done with the forum now.

[Monkey]

It got silly long ago. Hopefully that post means it is finally over now, though.

[migo984]

I've found this post illuminating. There are much sillier posts that go on far longer.

[Jon Szanto]

This thread doesn't even rise to goofy, much less silly. Stick around, there are wilder rides than this. ;)

And I would have thought at least a mild apology was in order. Many people tried to set the record straight, starting very gently, against constant stonewalling. At least the underlying issue seems settled.

[CaptainRon]

Migo and CaptainRon, thank you for your informative posts.

You see, I don't print postage. I don't even own a printer. Tracking doesn't appear to be available by just taking a parcel to the post office and paying for it there, according to my experience and EoC's quote of the USPS website. So thanks for coming up with a helpful solution.

I think I'm now done with the forum now.

Wasn't trying to drive you away, just show that it is possible to get the tracking you said doesn't exist. You can do it by handwriting the customs form at the post office as well (I've done that before too).

I also don't think this is anymore silly that most other discussions. You should see the sillyness on cigar and pipe forums LOL

If you think it's so silly, don't read, easy.

[FredRydr]

This is getting silly.Fred

If you think it's so silly, don't read, easy.
But it's my OP! :smash:

Fred

[jar]

If you think it's so silly, don't read, easy.
But it's my OP! :smash:

Fred

Don't worry, we hate you too.

[FredRydr]

Don't worry, we hate you too.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/46/8d/c3/468dc3bacb2432f4df53aa1f012f20ad.jpg

May you fall into a pool of BayState Blue with an ugly sheik.

Fred

[Chrissy]

Migo and CaptainRon, thank you for your informative posts.

You see, I don't print postage. I don't even own a printer. Tracking doesn't appear to be available by just taking a parcel to the post office and paying for it there, according to my experience and EoC's quote of the USPS website. So thanks for coming up with a helpful solution.

I think I'm now done with the forum now.
I don't print postage either. When I'm in the US, I take my parcels to a Post Office and pay for postage there, and tracking is automatically on there. Your counter clerks are always super helpful, so you only have to ask. :)

[Jon Szanto]

May you fall into a pool of BayState Blue with an ugly sheik.

? ? ?

http://www.tias.com/stores/memories/pictures/x1716a.jpg

[KrazyIvan]

Just a caveat, not all customs numbers are trackable: https://tools.usps.com/go/TrackConfirmAction?tLabels=LC084769550US

[FredRydr]

CONUS (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/18513-Omas-Milord-Bronze-Arco-Celluloid?p=191449&viewfull=1#post191449) <sigh!> I suppose we could try shaming.

Fred

[matteob]

I am a bit late but am baffled by this too. I have found it with a range of items. Surely something as small as a boxed prn can be posted in a smallish jiffy bag and that should not cost $25? I bought a straight razor from the US recently and paid 5 dollars shipping to the UK.

[VertOlive]

This is me and I'll say it. It's a hassle and I'm a low-down good-for-naught slattern of a seller. That said, I will start including Hawaii and Alaska in my shipping circle if I don't have to push any extra buttons on my USPS shipping site.

What's the shorthand for saying CONUS and Hawaii and Alaska--CONUS-HA?

[stub]

Surely something as small as a boxed prn can be posted in a smallish jiffy bag and that should not cost $25?

Last time I got a pen sent to me in a jiffy bag all I got was a jiffy bags with a hole in it.

The pen did arrive later, as the person was smart enough to put the address on the actual pen PVC tube but the jiffy bag thing for international shipping has always seemed iffy to me.

[matteob]

@VertOlive but if I wanted a pen and was prepared to pay you carriage to UK up front why refuse? You go through the same process at the Post Office as sending something down the road :)

Hmmmm I guess but it depends on how you pack I guess. I have shipped stuff abroad and just use loads of bubble wrap and styrofoam and it seems to arrive undamaged. Anyway an outright refusal to ahip abroad does seem silly and counterproductive if the buyer is willing to pay the price of carriage. I like Indian pens and some makers out there adopt the same attitude though Guider and Ratnamson are happy to mail abroad as long as I pay carriage which, with EMS is nearly the cost of the pen. For something rare though it is worth it. The whole refusal to ship abroad is mainly an American thing in the main though it seems. I see it a lot on Etsy and Ebay.

. I must admit though that postage prices are going up something crazy everywhere it seems. I write snail mail letters and even with air mail paper it costs a couple of pounds in the UK to send outside of Europe

[Chemyst]

I think many of us are hesitant to ship overseas because we're just plain ignorant about what's involved. It's an unknown and some of us are just unwilling to deal with that unknown. It's a risk and some people just aren't willing to enter into the additional risk and/or figure out what steps are required to ship something overseas.

That was me a couple years ago. After shipping several parcels to friends in Australia, which seems to run about $25 for even a small box, I don't even blink at the thought of shipping something over the pond any longer.

You can even take care of posting everything online thru the USPS website and have the package picked up at your front door. No reason, for me, to hesitate at shipping anywhere in the world. Maybe one day I'll have a pen that's worthy of the additional cost of shipping so far :)

I think you have hit on several of the main points here. I have a slightly different perspective on a few things though.

The way I see it, here are the main issues for a US based seller:
1.) Why bother
2.) Seller convenience
3.) Cost
4.) Legal issues
5.) Buyer expectations

First off, if I am selling on an English language website, the market is probably large enough that I don't need to ship outside the US. Maybe for some niche items, it would benefit me to add international shipping, but for most items the trade-off isn't there. There are already a few hundred million customers inside my national borders.

Second, is more work to ship international. At a minimum if you are using a postal fulfillment system, you need to have someone sign a customs form. If you are just a small time seller, you need to go to the post office, find the right forms, fill them out and wait at the counter.

Third, it costs more to ship internationally. Often significantly more. Like others said in the thread, buyers can just pay that but in my experience they often complain and try to nickel-and-dime on shipping costs. It makes something that should be simple into a hassle. Easier to just quote US buyers the standard USPS/UPS/DHL/FedEx rates that they are used to and can verify themselves.

Fourth, customs/PayPal/CC hassles. Tracking is expensive and as pointed out in this thread, it can be confusing for some. Customs can delay shipments indefinitely with little transparency. Similarly, customs can destroy shipments for flimsy reasons or drastically increase the declared value and levy heavy import tariffs. Some countries have problems with shipments disappearing just before they reach a port of entry. Navigating the issues to satisfy both the buyer and the payment processor (PayPal/CC) can be maddening.

Finally, it is hard to end up with happy customers when the previous issues are summed up. Everything seems to take too long, give too little information and cost too much. Often there is little I can do, especially when the customer is an infrequent buyer who is unused to how international shipping works. As a seller, you want the customer to be happy and more often than not end up losing money when you eat some shipping or customs charges just to keep the customer happy.

Those are the trade-offs as I see them. To do it "right" and keep both the customer and I happy, costs somewhere in the range of 300 USD. That gets you 3-day air shipment, signature on delivery, by a courier service who will also pay your customs bill upon entry. I ship on Monday, DHL has it your hand by 1700 on Thursday and you can track the package through every step of the way. Spend any less and either the buyer or I get frustrated somewhere in the process and more likely than not I end up eating some losses.

So, for 3-day delivery and piece of mind it runs about 12 USD CONUS or 300 USD International. A lot of the time, for small items or relatively inexpensive shipments, it isn't even worth offering international shipping because it isn't worth the effort explaining the cost when you know the interested party isn't going to want to spend 300 USD to get a 200 USD shipment of ink.

HTH!

YMMV

[Empty_of_Clouds]

What a total load of bullshit!

There are plenty of sellers in the US who WILL ship internationally, and use a mutually agreeable and reasonable shipping option. In fact there are enough that do this that it casts into sharp relief the throwbacks that WON'T do it.

Furthermore, and this is an important part, if a buyer reaches out and identifies themselves as a known member of the community (here, FPN, PenTrace or wherever), at least make some effort to encourage the core values of community and help each other in our shared hobby.

[Chemyst]

Furthermore, and this is an important part, if a buyer reaches out and identifies themselves as a known member of the community (here, FPN, PenTrace or wherever), at least make some effort to encourage the core values of community and help each other in our shared hobby.

Is there a community? When I used that word in a previous thread (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/17407-PPP-What-do-you-wish-to-improve-in-the-FP-community), a lot of individuals started shouting that community was a lie and fountain pen "communities" were just loose marketplaces.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I'd would like to believe that when members are trading, especially if their respective status as such is known beforehand, that there would be a degree of conversation beyond "it's too much effort". And indeed that is often the case. It could be better.

[matteob]

$300 for what? Jeez that is a lot.

As far as hassle is concerned though most couriers will pay you if something gets lost or damaged but I guess we in Europe where a lot of inter trade goes on don't understand the vastness of the US market and the lack of need to ship anywhere else. I have had some Indian makers refuse as well. It is not the end of the world I would rather buy local if I can but with the bet there is a global market.

[Chemyst]

I'd would like to believe that when members are trading, especially if their respective status as such is known beforehand, that there would be a degree of conversation beyond "it's too much effort". And indeed that is often the case. It could be better.

Unfortunately, that is where it is often becomes easier for me as the seller to just send you an envelope of cash. It is precisely when you know the buyer that you feel like you need to go the most out of your way to be accommodating and shelter them from the realities of international shipping.

Pen worth 300 USD gets hit with an import tariff of 50 USD equivalent in New Zealand? I want you to be happy and I need good feedback so I am probably going to pay most or all of that for you.

Pen disappears just before it arrives at Italian customs? Regardless of what Paypal says in the fine print, I want a buyer I know (from FPG/FPN/IRL) to be happy and build my reputation, so I am probably going to refund that payment and eat the loss.

Buyer claims pen arrived damaged after I agreed to ship by a suboptimal (<300 USD) method? I am going to feel bad "taking advantage" of a fellow FPNer and probably going to refund the payment at least partially so the pen can be sent off to a nibmeister.

It's relatively easy to tell some random eBay buyer to work through the eBay/PayPal system to resolve issues. It is a bit harder when the buyer is known to you.

It is also relatively easy to tell some random buyer "Shipping is 300 USD. Take it or leave it." Again a bit harder when you know the person has really wanted this ink or pen for a long time and you want to "be a good person" and help out.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

If you tell me your eBay handle (if you have one) I can add it to my list of sellers to avoid. Thank you.

[Chemyst]

If you tell me your eBay handle (if you have one) I can add it to my list of sellers to avoid. Thank you.

You seem to be taking this very personally.

The question was asked why CONUS only is a thing. I offered my perspective on why it is a thing. I'm not trying to convince you or sell you anything. :)

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Just trying to save time.

If an item I am buying is going to exceed the NZ Custom limit and incur GST (Goods & Sales Tax) then I factor that into my decision to buy. I'm kinda old-fashioned about taking responsibility for my own actions, and fair play with as much decent communication as possible.

Recently I sold an item for considerably more than I expected (it wasn't a pen). I had put it up with a $10 shipping fee. Given the price it fetched I felt it warranted a fully insured courier service. I paid for this out of my own pocket (or in this case the unexpectedly large profit). I didn't have to do this, but I did it anyway. Why? because the world works much more smoothly when people are not trying to squeeze the last drop of advantage out of each other.

[Chemyst]

$300 for what? Jeez that is a lot.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, there are cheaper ways to go but you have to sacrifice something. Whether that be full insurance, tracking granularity, shipping speed or customs expediting. If you want full protection, happy customers and a fast transaction, it adds up quickly.


As far as hassle is concerned though most couriers will pay you if something gets lost or damaged but I guess we in Europe where a lot of inter trade goes on don't understand the vastness of the US market and the lack of need to ship anywhere else.

True, if you fill out all the forms exactly correct and take all the proper steps, you may be able to recoup some monies for damaged/lost parcels.

That is only a small part of the problem though. Usually, customs issues (destruction by customs or customs inflating the declared value tenfold) are not covered by couriers. Packages can also remain "In transit" in the system for months preventing claims being filed.

Couriers will offer more services, like customs clearance expediting, but for a significant service fee.

[Chemyst]

Just trying to save time.

If an item I am buying is going to exceed the NZ Custom limit and incur GST (Goods & Sales Tax) then I factor that into my decision to buy. I'm kinda old-fashioned about taking responsibility for my own actions, and fair play with as much decent communication as possible.

Recently I sold an item for considerably more than I expected (it wasn't a pen). I had put it up with a $10 shipping fee. Given the price it fetched I felt it warranted a fully insured courier service. I paid for this out of my own pocket (or in this case the unexpectedly large profit). I didn't have to do this, but I did it anyway. Why? because the world works much more smoothly when people are not trying to squeeze the last drop of advantage out of each other.

I'm with ya. If more buyers were open, honest and not trying to "squeeze the last drop of advantage out" the whole selling game would be a lot easier and more fun. Unfortunately, since selling involves money, most buyers are not so altruistic and are out for that last drop.

It is easy as a seller to get taken advantage of if you don't stick to firm policies across the board.

[Chrissy]

So, for 3-day delivery and piece of mind it runs about 12 USD CONUS or 300 USD International. A lot of the time, for small items or relatively inexpensive shipments, it isn't even worth offering international shipping because it isn't worth the effort explaining the cost when you know the interested party isn't going to want to spend 300 USD to get a 200 USD shipment of ink.

HTH!

YMMV

$300 to ship a bottle of ink is a gross overestimate, so I can only assume you're quoting that just because you don't want to ship out of the US, and that's up to you. I ship internationally out of the UK and I have never had any experiences or expectations that bear any similarities to yours.

So while some sellers are happily getting as much of the ebay International market as is possible, and having no issues with it, as long as you're happy to stick to selling just within the US then everyone is happy. :)

[Chemyst]

$300 to ship a bottle of ink is a gross overestimate, so I can only assume you're quoting that just because you don't want to ship out of the US, and that's up to you. I ship internationally out of the UK and I have never had any experiences or expectations that bear any similarities to yours.


Hi Chrissy, thanks for kind of proving my point. The first thing many international buyers say is "that's outrageous" or a more profane version of the same. This is quickly followed by assumptions about what my "real" motives for setting shipping at a particular price must be (i.e., I'm an idiot, I must be racist, I am trying to avoid selling to them, &c). Then comes the nickel-and-diming to try and talk me down into shipping without tracking and via a slow method because the buyer is "totally okay with waiting 6 wks" even though they are will then proceed to whinge about it daily, bitterly complain that tracking isn't updating and customs charged them an import fee that I didn't warn them about. Finally, they'll leave me a 1-star review for "slow shipping" and possibly initiate a chargeback.

I'd invite you to click around on the US versions of DHL.com or fedex.com. Put in that you are:
-Shipping from USA, zipcode 02108
-Shipping to UK, London or DE, Berlin
-Shipment is ink
-Shipment value is 200 USD
-Shipment weight is 1 kg or 2 lbs
-You desire delivery with a signature and detailed tracking in 3 days or less

Depending on what type of box or carton you choose, you'll see that shipping alone runs from 110 - 400 USD.

Now, factor in that the shipment will get hit with a customs tariff of say 10% (20 USD) and the courier will charge another 20 USD for expediting customs clearance for you and 300 USD is looking like a bargain.

[jar]

If you tell me your eBay handle (if you have one) I can add it to my list of sellers to avoid. Thank you.

On eBay it is sig_230 and please avoid me.

[matteob]

Those quotes are crazy. I would not buy bulk items from the US but a pen perhaps. It is no trouble for me to wait a few weeks for it either. Most carriage fees are based on weight so something as light as a pen should not cost that unless we are talking a super valuable pen with a very high insurance premium?

[Empty_of_Clouds]

If you tell me your eBay handle (if you have one) I can add it to my list of sellers to avoid. Thank you.

On eBay it is sig_230 and please avoid me.

Of course, if you were a regular eBay seller who has some fear of selling overseas and is full of non-defensible reasons to avoid doing so.

You know, a lot of people get me wrong. I may whinge and moan about stuff on here, but if you are in a transaction with me you will find I am very old-school regarding courtesy and responsibility. This is why, in part, I find it offensive to be fed some ridiculous line by a seller about why they won't ship overseas. It's mostly bullshit and speaks to their lack of ability or willingness to do a bit of research. [Based on some of the reactions I've gotten just for asking]

[atheta]

Hmm,
I wonder where the costs cited here come from. From Finland to UK (within the EU) sending one pen in a vey light box costs 31 euro. I have seen many pens offered here I would have loved to buy, but the CONUS restriction prevents this. I would naturally pay for the postage, so I just do not understand this.
s.
Jyrki
Finland

[migo984]

Genuine question, as I'm completely bemused by some of the prices quoted on here, but if these prices are correct, how come Franklin Christoph can include free international shipping, via FedEx, on orders over $75? I've ordered from them several times, for delivery to both Aus and UK, and the pens have been delivered, tracked & signed for, in 3 - 5 days. Free of charge to me.

[datainadequate]

Genuine question, as I'm completely bemused by some of the prices quoted on here, but if these prices are correct, how come Franklin Christoph can include free international shipping, via FedEx, on orders over $75? I've ordered from them several times, for delivery to both Aus and UK, and the pens have been delivered, tracked & signed for, in 3 - 5 days. Free of charge to me.

It's a good question, but unless F-C tell us we may never know. I guess it is possible that companies can get much better deals than individuals, especially if they are regularly sending many packages. There are other ways that I can speculate that a manufacturer might be able to reduce the shipping cost, and I am aware of some services that enable US companies to ship at more reasonable rates than the "book" rate. But none of these options are available for private sellers :(

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Whenever I see the phrase "free shipping" I automatically assume that the vendor has accounted for the shipping cost somewhere in the price of the item. In other words, there is no free shipping, just as TANSTAAFL.

[Chemyst]

Hmm,
I wonder where the costs cited here come from. From Finland to UK (within the EU) sending one pen in a vey light box costs 31 euro.

Bureaucracy at work.

Like I mentioned upthread, I can ship anywhere inside the US customs zone with 2 or 3 day delivery, tracking and signature delivery for around 12 USD using the national postal service or maybe double that if I am shipping something the post won't accept and I need to use a courier service. Hawaii to New York City, 8000 km, 3 days, 12 USD.

Costs go up an order of magnitude for the same service as soon as I want to ship outside the customs zone.

[earthdawn]

Genuine question, as I'm completely bemused by some of the prices quoted on here, but if these prices are correct, how come Franklin Christoph can include free international shipping, via FedEx, on orders over $75? I've ordered from them several times, for delivery to both Aus and UK, and the pens have been delivered, tracked & signed for, in 3 - 5 days. Free of charge to me.

If you find someone who has access to a corporate Fedex or UPS account pick an international address to ship to and lets say 6"x6"x"6 box at 1lb. and ask them for the rates to ship it from the USA to that address. Then create a consumer account and put the same info in. The difference is STAGGERING.

As a consumer I have asked at the PO a few times and its always the same for Canada at least. The cheapest tracked is to do the small Priority box @ $24.95

Its $34.94 to Australia.

[migo984]

Whenever I see the phrase "free shipping" I automatically assume that the vendor has accounted for the shipping cost somewhere in the price of the item. In other words, there is no free shipping, just as TANSTAAFL.




If you find someone who has access to a corporate Fedex or UPS account pick an international address to ship to and lets say 6"x6"x"6 box at 1lb. and ask them for the rates to ship it from the USA to that address. Then create a consumer account and put the same info in. The difference is STAGGERING.

As a consumer I have asked at the PO a few times and its always the same for Canada at least. The cheapest tracked is to do the small Priority box @ $24.95

Its $34.94 to Australia.




It's a good question, but unless F-C tell us we may never know. I guess it is possible that companies can get much better deals than individuals, especially if they are regularly sending many packages. There are other ways that I can speculate that a manufacturer might be able to reduce the shipping cost, and I am aware of some services that enable US companies to ship at more reasonable rates than the "book" rate. But none of these options are available for private sellers :(

I understand about corporate rates, and that (part) of the shipping costs are passed on to buyers somewhere in the costings, but my question was posed because I read a quote of $300, yet F-C offer 'free' FedEx shipping for orders over just $75. Surely even corporate rates are not that advantageous?

Having bought many times from all round the world, I also understand about standard US Int'l postal rates, & like-for-like, they really aren't much different to any country's, apart from Japan.

By the way, I had a 15kg package sent from Japan to UK, via FedEx, for not much over $110. Took 3 days. Pretty reasonable I thought.

[VegHead]

I see in the For Sale section many nice pens on offer have popped up but being CONUS Only, again. Don't get it all. I just ordered a heavy package from the US and the postage was nothing out of the ordinary, and I regularly buy books from the US that attract no postage whatsoever. A lot of pen sellers here seem quite desperate to sell their items as highlighted by their many bumps and price drops, yet seem to restrict their sales by posting CONUS only. As I said - I just don't get it.
My 2 cents worth . . .

[VertOlive]

@VertOlive but if I wanted a pen and was prepared to pay you carriage to UK up front why refuse? You go through the same process at the Post Office as sending something down the road :)

Hmmmm I guess but it depends on how you pack I guess. I have shipped stuff abroad and just use loads of bubble wrap and styrofoam and it seems to arrive undamaged. Anyway an outright refusal to ahip abroad does seem silly and counterproductive if the buyer is willing to pay the price of carriage. I like Indian pens and some makers out there adopt the same attitude though Guider and Ratnamson are happy to mail abroad as long as I pay carriage which, with EMS is nearly the cost of the pen. For something rare though it is worth it. The whole refusal to ship abroad is mainly an American thing in the main though it seems. I see it a lot on Etsy and Ebay.

. I must admit though that postage prices are going up something crazy everywhere it seems. I write snail mail letters and even with air mail paper it costs a couple of pounds in the UK to send outside of Europe

Well, I don't go to the post office, I print my shipping labels at home and the carrier picks up the package. I can't figure out how to do it online because there are extra forms. Also, none of the pens I sell are special enough for anyone to care.

[matteob]

That's a valid point @VertOlive and I can see your point if you are printing labels at home. It depends on how badly someone wants to make the sale but it is frustrating if it is a rare item you want and the seller refuses to mail abroad even though you are prepared to pay the cost. Ultimately it is down to the seller but the internet has created a global "shopfront" and the expectation is that people expect vendors to do business globally: each to their own I guess. What amazes me us the huge variation in postage quotes given. Goulet for instance is sky high ($15 to send a nib to the UK) while other traders in the US provide far more reasonable quotes.

My other collecting passion is straight razors. This guy has the most reasonable charges I have seen from the US and he does a lot of business abroad via word of mouth on forums. I post by way of example. If he charges me $5 to send me a razor how can Goulet charge $15 for a tiny thing like a nib? That is where my confusion lies.

http://www.whippeddog.com/products/view/sight-unseen-razor

[FredRydr]

Well, I tried, but CONUS ONLY persists even if I volunteer to do the dirty deed: http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/18675-Franklin-Christoph-Model-45-Special-Edition-Lemon-Lime-Ice-w-Steel-Masuyama-CI-Nib?

Fred

[jar]

Well, I tried, but CONUS ONLY persists even if I volunteer to do the dirty deed: http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/18675-Franklin-Christoph-Model-45-Special-Edition-Lemon-Lime-Ice-w-Steel-Masuyama-CI-Nib?

Fred

I still don't see a problem with a seller specifying CONUS only or UK only or Detroit only or Brooklandville only if that is what the seller wants.

[FredRydr]

I still don't see a problem with a seller specifying CONUS only or UK only or Detroit only or Brooklandville only if that is what the seller wants.
The point is not a seller doing what he wants, but rather a seller's irrational fear based on anecdotes used as justification. When the risk is entirely the buyer's (as in my offer to forward), what reasonable justification remains to refuse to sell to the overseas buyer?

Fred

[jar]

I still don't see a problem with a seller specifying CONUS only or UK only or Detroit only or Brooklandville only if that is what the seller wants.
The point is not a seller doing what he wants, but rather a seller's irrational fear based on anecdotes used as justification. When the risk is entirely the buyer's (as in my offer to forward), what reasonable justification remains to refuse to sell to the overseas buyer?

Fred

I don't think there needs to be a reasonable justification. This is not a business issue but rather a transaction between individuals and so I see no justification to expect reasonable conditions.

[penwash]

I still don't see a problem with a seller specifying CONUS only or UK only or Detroit only or Brooklandville only if that is what the seller wants.
The point is not a seller doing what he wants, but rather a seller's irrational fear based on anecdotes used as justification. When the risk is entirely the buyer's (as in my offer to forward), what reasonable justification remains to refuse to sell to the overseas buyer?

Fred

I sent vintage pens that I restore internationally, some of my repeat buyers are from Canada, Australia and Singapore.

But at the same time I can fully understand why some chose to not ship internationally. It's not when everything is going right, but when the package never reach the destination. Much as the buyer is willing to shoulder the risk, the relationship between the seller and buyer (whatever level this may be) will be tainted with the incident. And for some, that is enough to dissuade them from opening themselves to that risk.

If you and I are not bothered by failed international shipping, others may be, and we cannot impose our "not-bothered-ness" to others, it's as simple as that.

BTW, this is not exclusive to US sellers, try to convince individual Japanese fountain pen sellers to sell outside of Japan. Many of them simply won't entertain that idea.

[FredRydr]

...It's not when everything is going right, but when the package never reach the destination. Much as the buyer is willing to shoulder the risk, the relationship between the seller and buyer (whatever level this may be) will be tainted with the incident. And for some, that is enough to dissuade them from opening themselves to that risk....
Very well put. The unfortunate result of this understandable but irrational behavior is how colleagues outside US borders (and Hawaiians, for that matter) see it.



...BTW, this is not exclusive to US sellers, try to convince individual Japanese fountain pen sellers to sell outside of Japan. Many of them simply won't entertain that idea.
That is interesting. I have no experience with buying pens from Japan (or trying to). My comment in this thread has been based on observation of classifieds in English-speaking pen forums like Geeks and FPN.

Fred

[Chrissy]

I wish we could somehow see that Classified Ads on this site and on FPN said CONUS before we clicked on them. It would save so much time. :)

On ebay it's much easier to filter that you only see items for sale within the European Union.

[AzJon]

Just a personal anecdote:

I was selling a Pelikan 140 a number of months ago and had a buyer from Canada that really wanted the pen. Tracked shipping was.....$25, irrc for a small flat-rate box (tracking plus $150 insurance). Buyer backed out and didn't want the pen anymore. I don't particularly blame them, either. I was personally uncomfortable asking for the additional shipping. Of course, if the buyer wants to play ball, I don't see any reason for someone to be unwilling to ship abroad.

[matteob]

It is the seller's decision but it is sad as most international mail has some compensation scheme if something is lost or damaged. I have never had an international order not show up.

[earthdawn]

I wish we could somehow see that Classified Ads on this site and on FPN said CONUS before we clicked on them. It would save so much time. :)

On ebay it's much easier to filter that you only see items for sale within the European Union.

Ya know thats not a bad idea... As a group and for those who see this we could start adding that to the end of the Thread title. If enough do it others may think it is the norm and start as well.

[Chrissy]

I wish we could somehow see that Classified Ads on this site and on FPN said CONUS before we clicked on them. It would save so much time. :)

On ebay it's much easier to filter that you only see items for sale within the European Union.

Ya know thats not a bad idea... As a group and for those who see this we could start adding that to the end of the Thread title. If enough do it others may think it is the norm and start as well.

Thanks. I think that would work. :)

[Bob]

I've never sold anything over seas, I have gifted items to people overseas. But I fail to see how it's rude for someone in the states not wanting to send something overseas.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[frmamede]

As a newbie, from a far away place, too far from most here, and in a country with no FP tradition or comunity that I know of, I would say it is quite sad that most of the classifieds are not open to itl shipping. There are many nice pens and deals there, and I feel kinda excluded from the hole thing. So much that I tend to simply ignore the classifieds here. It does not offend me in any way, I believe that people may do business in any way they want.

Also, I have a question. I've seen many here talking about over $100 shipping rates, and I don't get it. I've had a couple of intl shipping experiences, from the US and the NL (Not counting the ones from China), and in both cases the rates were around $30 - $50. So how could prices go up so much, even for a single pen? (In my cases, I bought multiple itens, including pens)

[KrazyIvan]

If an international buyer wants to get something that a seller will only ship to the US bad enough, I know that there are forwarding services in the US for that. I have no idea on cost or how it works but I have shipped to buyers in Australia and Chile to a US address. The Australian buyer had an Oregon address and the buyer in Chile had a Miami address. Here is alink I found to an article on the subject: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nancy-laws/5-reliable-parcel-forward_b_7134628.html

[matteob]

It's funny but it only seems to be a US thing. I have had stuff sent from China, Japan, Australia and India without any quibble at all. I thinkthat the US Postal Service is pretty dire though even compared to UK so I do understand. It depends on how easy it is to get to a post office. Miracle of miracles I still have a small sub post office near my house (UK) so don't have to go into the nearest main town to a counter at the back of WH Smiths and stand for 45 minutex in a queue (progress for you) but some do so I do understand particularly if you are printing postage paid labels a day. 150 years abo in UK there were two post deliveries a day and you could get a letter from London to Edinburgh the next day: that's progress folks.

[BrynRedbeard]

150 years abo in UK there were two post deliveries a day and you could get a letter from London to Edinburgh the next day: that's progress folks.

I wonder what the postage for the next day delivery from London to Edinburgh would be adjusted for today's money. Would it be comparable to our current "next day" service.
Cheers

[matteob]

No idea but I doubt it. Of course a fast and reliable mail service was brought about by the railways. It was a necessity then not a "premium" product. Guaranteed next day delivery in the UK carries a premium of a few pounds.

[Chemyst]

150 years abo in UK there were two post deliveries a day and you could get a letter from London to Edinburgh the next day: that's progress folks.

I wonder what the postage for the next day delivery from London to Edinburgh would be adjusted for today's money. Would it be comparable to our current "next day" service.
Cheers

You can look up the rates after standardization in 1839 and the introduction of the Penny Black stamp, here (http://www.gbps.org.uk/information/rates/inland/).

As a rough estimate to convert 19th century to modern numbers, multiply by 100.

Keep in mind that prior to the inter-war period, mail and especially fast and frequently delivered mail was a luxury of the upper classes. Prior to the modern era, there was great interest in lightweight papers, cross-writing and other methods of economising in order to save on postage.

[Chemyst]

I have a question. I've seen many here talking about over $100 shipping rates, and I don't get it. I've had a couple of intl shipping experiences, from the US and the NL (Not counting the ones from China), and in both cases the rates were around $30 - $50. So how could prices go up so much, even for a single pen? (In my cases, I bought multiple itens, including pens)

There is a significant delta between the price at which you "can" ship a pen and the price at which you can ship a pen and meet the buyer's expectations while protecting the seller.

Dropping a pen into an envelope and shipping it off from New York to London is possible for under $20. Getting it there insured, with tracking and in under a week drives the cost up to >$200 quickly.

[Chemyst]

It's funny but it only seems to be a US thing. I have had stuff sent from China, Japan, Australia and India without any quibble at all.

I'd suggest that you are experiencing a sampling bias based on language.

If you are in selling on an English language board and are not in the US, most of your potential buyers are likely international and it is in your best interests to support international shipping. India, China, Australia, Japan all fall into this group.

If you are selling on an English language board and you are in the US, the majority of your potential customers are likely inside your custom zone already and you can disregard international buyers without significantly impacting your chances of making a sale.

I'd advance there is a similar dynamic on Japanese sales sites. If the listing is in Japanese, they can probably disregard international buyers with little effect.

[matteob]

So it is a case of insularity with Americans then? I am not saying it applies to all but I do seem to get the impression that some Americans don't think outside their country. This board has an international following, as does ebay and etay. For me I would not refuse to send something abroad at cost. Some American vendors do this and aquire a good worldwide reputation. In Europe it is not such a problem. I think even after Brexit there will still be ease of buying as we see ourselves as neighbours. I have bought from France, Italy, Germany no problem. Post can be a bit steep but they WILL make the sale. I was brought up to believe that no good businessman turns down a sale. It may be a bit more effort but you may have won a long term customer. The "sorry bud domestic only" , especially on an Item listed through International ebay seems ridiculous and can cause bemusement and frustration. At least give people the option I say. Not that my needs are not services perfectly well by local companies most of the time. Goulet Pens is an example. They will ship abroad but their international shipping rates are steep enough to put me off patronizing them. However there is the option.

[jar]

I was brought up to believe that no good businessman turns down a sale.

Many sales should be turned down, the customer is very often not right and good business definitely includes knowing who not to sell to.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I have a question. I've seen many here talking about over $100 shipping rates, and I don't get it. I've had a couple of intl shipping experiences, from the US and the NL (Not counting the ones from China), and in both cases the rates were around $30 - $50. So how could prices go up so much, even for a single pen? (In my cases, I bought multiple itens, including pens)

There is a significant delta between the price at which you "can" ship a pen and the price at which you can ship a pen and meet the buyer's expectations while protecting the seller.

Dropping a pen into an envelope and shipping it off from New York to London is possible for under $20. Getting it there insured, with tracking and in under a week drives the cost up to >$200 quickly.


That is partly incorrect. USPS First Class International - packed into a proper box (not an envelope) is tracked to the UK. Obviously cost of shipping is dependent on weight no matter where you are sending it from. However, what is the included insurance ceiling on USPS First Class International to the UK? That may be a sticking point, but tracking is most certainly not. I get a bit fed up with US sellers banging on about tracking when it is clearly provided by USPS. The "under a week" part of your argument is largely irrelevant for non-urgent mail. In my experience packages generally take 10-14 days. At the price point of USPS First Class Int., that is acceptable to me.

Here in New Zealand, as I understand it, if I send a package anywhere in the world at the cheapest rate it will cost - depending on the weight - from about USD12 and upward. The package is also fully insured as long as the total value is not more than approximately USD1400. No tracking though from this side.

[BrynRedbeard]

So it is a case of insularity with Americans then? I am not saying it applies to all but I do seem to get the impression that some Americans don't think outside their country.

You are correct in your assumption. But things are slowly changing. When I got my passport in 1985 there were about 6 million passport holders in the US. (2.5% of the population). Last year about 36% had passports but that includes passcards that are only for Mexico and Canada.

More anecdotally I do not go a month without hearing some one complain about people not speaking good English, or that the directions for assembly of their new furniture from IKEA is printed in 12 different languages (as if that inconveniences them in some way), or that the f'ing Japanese cars use metric measurements, and so forth.

Most Americans are confused as to why other countries do not do things in the same way we do and unsure as to why they should trouble themselves or make any allowance for the rest of the world. This sentiment has been expressed in our recent elections much to my consternation.

I have been a US expat several times in my career. I really wish I was in a position to check out for a while.

Cheers

[Bob]

So it is a case of insularity with Americans then? I am not saying it applies to all but I do seem to get the impression that some Americans don't think outside their country.

You are correct in your assumption. But things are slowly changing. When I got my passport in 1985 there were about 6 million passport holders in the US. (2.5% of the population). Last year about 36% had passports but that includes passcards that are only for Mexico and Canada.

More anecdotally I do not go a month without hearing some one complain about people not speaking good English, or that the directions for assembly of their new furniture from IKEA is printed in 12 different languages (as if that inconveniences them in some way), or that the f'ing Japanese cars use metric measurements, and so forth.

Most Americans are confused as to why other countries do not do things in the same way we do and unsure as to why they should trouble themselves or make any allowance for the rest of the world. This sentiment has been expressed in our recent elections much to my consternation.

I have been a US expat several times in my career. I really wish I was in a position to check out for a while.

Cheers

I'm sorry that you don't like America. I hope you find what you're looking for, elsewhere.

[Jon Szanto]

I'm sorry that you don't like America. I hope you find what you're looking for, elsewhere.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/b9/5e/3b/b95e3be8f060046b0401d4b2e269df8a.jpg

[matteob]

So it is a case of insularity with Americans then? I am not saying it applies to all but I do seem to get the impression that some Americans don't think outside their country.

You are correct in your assumption. But things are slowly changing. When I got my passport in 1985 there were about 6 million passport holders in the US. (2.5% of the population). Last year about 36% had passports but that includes passcards that are only for Mexico and Canada.

More anecdotally I do not go a month without hearing some one complain about people not speaking good English, or that the directions for assembly of their new furniture from IKEA is printed in 12 different languages (as if that inconveniences them in some way), or that the f'ing Japanese cars use metric measurements, and so forth.

Most Americans are confused as to why other countries do not do things in the same way we do and unsure as to why they should trouble themselves or make any allowance for the rest of the world. This sentiment has been expressed in our recent elections much to my consternation.

I have been a US expat several times in my career. I really wish I was in a position to check out for a while.

Cheers

I'm sorry that you don't like America. I hope you find what you're looking for, elsewhere.

That's a bit of a sweeping statement. I don't think that either myself or the gentleman above were saying we "don't like America." I was asking for clarification on a certain point raised above and talking about some US sellers on ebay as was Empty_of_Clouds. That does not mean we don't like America or are writing off the whole country. That I'm afraid is crazy though some from the US (and American friends would agree with me on this) see any criticism of anthing in The US as hating on Uncle Sam :/ I use and enjoy Noodlers Products, own a Cross pen, love Hershey's cups, Frenches Mustard, my lawnmower has a Briggs and Stratton motor, love a US V8 (getting rarer now) and I have US penpal etc lol

[FredRydr]

I'm sorry that you don't like America. I hope you find what you're looking for, elsewhere.
That's ignorant. The trouble is, it just reinforces the view that we're all ignorant CONUS. Thanks, Bob.

Fred

[BrynRedbeard]

I'm sorry that you don't like America. I hope you find what you're looking for, elsewhere.

Thank you matteob, FredRydr for the defense. The first part of my post makes my point.



I have been a US expat several times in my career. I really wish I was in a position to check out for a while.

The last statement was born out of my frustration and was hyperbolic. However, Bob is quite right to check me on my words. I personally choose to interpret Bob's reply as a sarcastic statement rather than literal. Flinging me a well deserved barb for my whinging.

Cheers

[Chemyst]

So it is a case of insularity with Americans then?

I don't think so.

Like I wrote out in some detail upthread, selling internationally is more work logistically and is very often a hassle due to the "tire kicker" buyer who wants to haggle shipping down to barebones initially and then complains and leaves bad feedback when shipping doesn't meet their expectations (or sends emails back and forth for weeks but never commits...perhaps hoping I'll waive shipping fees if they seem interested and indecisive enough).

I tend to think of it more along the lines of the old sales adage that: 5% of customers create 95% of the problems. If you are selling things on an English language site, are located in the USA and you can cut out those that 5% with the simple comment "CONUS only", it is very often worth doing so.

[grainweevil]

I tend to think of it more along the lines of the old sales adage that: 5% of customers create 95% of the problems. If you are selling things on an English language site, are located in the USA and you can cut out those that 5% with the simple comment "CONUS only", it is very often worth doing so.

This appears to be saying that you believe the only problematic customers are overseas, and that all overseas customers are going to cause problems. Did you actually mean that?

[Chemyst]

I tend to think of it more along the lines of the old sales adage that: 5% of customers create 95% of the problems. If you are selling things on an English language site, are located in the USA and you can cut out those that 5% with the simple comment "CONUS only", it is very often worth doing so.

This appears to be saying that you believe the only problematic customers are overseas, and that all overseas customers are going to cause problems. Did you actually mean that?

Read the preceding 112 posts in this thread.

Not all overseas buyers of course, but the vast majority of them are simply not worth dealing with when they are small minority of potential buyers and require more work. This small minority requires more work. Full stop. Not perjorative, simply a statement of fact.

If everything else goes seamlessly, it takes more work to fill out customs paperwork and ship outside the US.

However, in my experience it often does not go seamlessly. Like I laid out in Post #57, and you can see in some FPG's response to it, shipping immediately becomes a contentious (nationalistic?) issue with overseas buyers.
- When I tell domestic buyers, here are the shipping options, they almost always pay immediately.
- When I tell overseas buyers, here are the shipping options, they almost always start casting aspersions on me, sharing anecdotal stories (that time they got something shipped from the US for 5€) and trying to open extensive discussions on how to nickel-and-dime shipping down. As I mentioned in Post #62, this is the beginning of me either losing money upfront (eating shipping costs) or losing money down the line (when the buyer ultimately leaves me poor feedback for "slow shipping"). Alternately, after a week of emails asking questions and "kicking the tires", the potential buyer will decide they are not really interested after all if they have pay for an adequate shipping method and/or have the customs forms correctly filled out with declared values.

Even when I invite potential buyers to take a look at the shipping rates themselves, like I did in Post #69, they still think that somehow I am playing them.

So, like I mentioned upthread, it really comes down to why bother as a US seller?
-Why add that aggravation?
-Why take a loss selling overseas when there is a substantial domestic market?
-What does this added hassle get me from a business standpoint?
- I'd even go so far as to ask, like some did in this thread: What does this added hassle get me from a hobbyist/community standpoint?

I tend to think about adding international shipping as something to be considered if a sale can't be made initially. Mostly though, the US market is large enough that there is no need to add those complications and aggravation.

[grainweevil]

I tend to think of it more along the lines of the old sales adage that: 5% of customers create 95% of the problems. If you are selling things on an English language site, are located in the USA and you can cut out those that 5% with the simple comment "CONUS only", it is very often worth doing so.

This appears to be saying that you believe the only problematic customers are overseas, and that all overseas customers are going to cause problems. Did you actually mean that?

Read the preceding 112 posts in this thread.

Not all overseas buyers of course, but the vast majority of them are simply not worth dealing with when they are small minority of potential buyers and require more work. This small minority requires more work. Full stop. Not perjorative, simply a statement of fact.

So you didn't mean exactly what you wrote, but the vast majority of it; that's all I wanted to know. Thank you.

[matteob]

Yea but Chemyst I never try to negotiate on shipping: it costs what it costs and I have no control over that. If I see something I like I will ask up front if they are prepared to take a an offer on sales price (dealer not ebay) If not I will either buy on the spot or walk away. I have not bought pens from the US yet but bought quite a bit of shaving gear out there and had no issues. I am going to get one replated by a restorer out there. send it out registered, he gives me his fee plus the return registered post. I think he's quoted me 15 or 20 bucks for that. A customs form takes five minutes, if that to fill in. The only think I have asked seller in US to do in the past (if an independent dealer) is to mark as gift or undervalue which most will do. This is not so much to avoid duty as delay and a rip off "admin" charge from Royal Mail on stuff that passes through Customs.i never insist on something arriving within 5 days. Normal postage, even from somewhere like China normally only takes a few weeks max airmail and I can stomach that.

It's nice to have the option and if it is a rare item it is frustrating when they won't sell. I have had it in India a few times with a few penmakers refusing to post outside of India while others like Guider, though not actively reaching out internationally like ASA and Ranga, are prepared to send abroad at cost: horses for courses (shrugs).

To me the beauty of the net and forums like this is enthusiasts and people from all over the world can make friends, trade etc.

[jar]

The only think I have asked seller in US to do in the past (if an independent dealer) is to mark as gift or undervalue which most will do. This is not so much to avoid duty as delay and a rip off "admin" charge from Royal Mail on stuff that passes through Customs.

That's something that would stop any transaction in my case. I refuse to undervalue or label a purchase as a gift.

[matteob]

Hmmm I know it is a bit cheeky. I am not a tax dodger but I don't like getting my bottom smacked with "Admin" charges. A lot of people I have dealt with understand. Of course I reciprocate and do them a favour if I know and trust them by paying friends and family. It's like you scratch my back and I'll sratch yours all in the most amiable manner. Each to his own I think we just have some very hard core US vendors in the pen community :P

[Empty_of_Clouds]

If you do that and the parcel goes astray in the post then the seller is screwed with regard to making a claim for insurance. The buyer - assuming the pay through PayPal or credit card - are better covered in such eventualities. Personally I would never ask anyone to deliberately falsify documents like this. However, I have noticed on occasion that the vendor has done so off their own bat. Why they do this is a mystery to me.

[matteob]

I think it is as a favour to the seller. The object is not really to screw the revenue (the amount is relatively small) but to ensure the parcel arrives without languishing in customs for ages before delivery.

I am talking of items of under $50 here. Obviously if it was a very expensive item which needs insurance above and beyond that offered by the carrier then obviously I would not make requests. As I say a lot of sellers do it with relatively cheap items just over the threshold because it speeds up delivery. The Heathrow International Delivery Office here in the UK is notorious for things getting stuck there for weeks and weeks at a time.

As I say it is a matter of the seller's choice. I have bought a few pens from India from Guider Pens, Asa Pens and the Ranga pens people in the FPN and they are happy to deliver abroad as are most booksellers. It's all a matter of choice. Certainly Guider Pens don't really look to sell outside India but were more than happy to accommodate me. I am glad they did as they are some of the best finished ebonite pens I have come across. I always seem to get freebies from them too: miniature eyedropper pens, spare nibs and feeds etc, get emails showing their selection, help with choice and a follow up email to see if the package has arrived. Ratnam Ball Pens (be warned) have taken my money (and others so I have read) and have not sent pens on and do not respond to emails. You get accommodating sellers and some awful ones: like this chap (not a pen dealer but you get the point)

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2531751/miserable-book-shop-owner-charging-people-50p-enter/

[Chemyst]

Yea but Chemyst I never try to negotiate on shipping: it costs what it costs and I have no control over that.

You my friend are a unicorn among non-US buyers then.

Please spread your simple message to the other non-US buyers and perhaps we won't need a thread like this in 5 years.




The only think I have asked seller in US to do in the past (if an independent dealer) is to mark as gift or undervalue which most will do.

I'm with jar on this. It is illegal and it is removes protection for the seller if a claim needs to be filed. Showstopper.

I file this under the same heading as people who ask for payment as "friends and family" or want an additional percentage to cover their payment transaction fees. If they open the deal by proposing a scam, I don't have any faith that they won't try scamming me by the time it is all over.

[Chrissy]

I file this under the same heading as people who ask for payment as "friends and family" or want an additional percentage to cover their payment transaction fees. If they open the deal by proposing a scam, I don't have any faith that they won't try scamming me by the time it is all over.

Whether asking for a lower valuation of a Customs Form is illegal on the part of the seller or the buyer might be up for debate. However, one thing is for sure: It is NOT a scam. It's a request.

Bearing in mind that some sellers don't know that they have to write the item value only, and that it can legally be the original value, or the price the seller paid for it, and that it definitely cannot include any fees, packaging costs, or shipping, it can sometimes be a legitimate request.

I think we've all 'got it' by now that you're not an 'out of the US' shipper, and you have a degree of mistrust in your buyers. That's fine and dandy with me. There are plenty of US sellers who do ship out of the US. :)

[Chemyst]

I file this under the same heading as people who ask for payment as "friends and family" or want an additional percentage to cover their payment transaction fees. If they open the deal by proposing a scam, I don't have any faith that they won't try scamming me by the time it is all over.

Whether it is illegal on the part of the seller or the buyer might be up for debate. However, one thing is for sure: It is NOT a scam. It's a request.


I'll give you that Chrissy. If asked openly, it is a request to conduct fraud. So replace "scam" with "defraud" in my original statement:

If they open the deal by proposing to defraud a party, I don't have any faith that they won't try defrauding me by the time it is all over.

[Chrissy]

Humble apologies, but I edited my post before I saw your reply. :)

[Chemyst]

Humble apologies, but I edited my post before I saw your reply. :)

No worries.

I was not talking to sellers making errors out of ignorance in good faith. I was addressing matteob's comment that he asks sellers to mark the item as a gift or purposely undervalue it so it slips through HMRC Service without paying fees that are legally applicable based on the sale price. That is colluding to defraud at least HMRC.

[Chrissy]

Humble apologies, but I edited my post before I saw your reply. :)

No worries.

I was not talking to sellers making errors out of ignorance in good faith. I was addressing matteob's comment that he asks sellers to mark the item as a gift or purposely undervalue it so it slips through HMRC Service without paying fees that are legally applicable based on the sale price. That is colluding to defraud at least HMRC.
I know. :) However, in slight mitigation of matteob's comment, the EU merchandise import limit is the equivalent of $18 before HMRC adds at least 20% tax, plus additional delivery costs onto the item value plus the shipping. By comparison your merchandise import value is $300 and even on imported items slightly above that level you hardly ever get charged any taxes. So maybe you can occasionally cut him a bit of slack for asking. After all he may only want a $20 or $30 pen, that would have originally cost less than half that. Maybe if you placed yourself in his position, you might consider making the request too, or maybe not. :)

He, as the importer, is the only party that can get into trouble legally.

Anyway, this is all 'off topic' for which I apologise. :) :focus:

[matteob]

Thanks Chrissy I tend to shop locally anyway now because, as you say, anything over $18 and you pay the 20% tax and then an £8 handling fee from Royal Mail. You end up with delays and paying nearly double the mark up price. I pay all my taxes for the record on the meagre amount I earn. I am more concerned by tax avoidance of large US corps like Amazon with their off shore shell hq and bogus self emoloyment policies. Let them take on the super rich first not a guy like me who is struggling to keep my head above water.


Chrissy is also right on the loopholes. The guy who sold me my straight razor declares the price he paid for the razor and it is under the threshold. The additional is his honing and restoration expertise. I mean I could sell a modified Jinhao with a flex nib and better converter and still declare the £2 value I paid for it. This is all chicken feed of course. Corporations pay expensive lawyers to carry out wheezes like this all the time: welcome to unfettered capitalism.

Anyway off topic a tad as well sorry!

Oh well last comment on me from this!

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I've got a couple of pens I would like to offload. I may put them up on the listings. Shipping will to everywhere in the world except the US. Sounds fair to me.

[AzJon]

I've got a couple of pens I would like to offload. I may put them up on the listings. Shipping will to everywhere in the world except the US. Sounds fair to me.

Yeah, that'll really stick it to 'em.

By all means, ship wherever you please. Your pens, your choice. ¯\_ツ_/¯

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I was being ironic.

[AzJon]

I was being ironic.

Ah, my apologies. It came across as petty.

[grainweevil]

I've got a couple of pens I would like to offload. I may put them up on the listings. Shipping will to everywhere in the world except the US. Sounds fair to me.

Don't forget, for best results, to only mention that right at the bottom of the listing. ;) :bolt:

[FredRydr]

I've got a couple of pens I would like to offload. I may put them up on the listings. Shipping will to everywhere in the world except the US. Sounds fair to me.
Not quite. Shipping should be to everywhere except the CONUS, meaning Hawaii, Puerto Rico, Guam, USVI and the like are okay. That'd drive the point home for sure.

I'm being ironic. No, make that sarcastic. I'll settle on facetious.

Fred

[KrazyIvan]

Well, decided to take the plunge on international shipping and already lost $10 in the deal. The package has not left my possession yet. Quoted someone using my mobile phone, they accepted and now just verifying on my laptop and it's showing $10 more than I quoted. Ugh.

[matteob]

I have just had this happen sending a pen to the US. I reckon I could have sent a revised quote for post and the gentleman would have been ok with it but I would have felt lousy. I am a principled guy which is probably why i am impecunious! I mean you can argue what is an offer and what is a quote but at the end of the day, in my case, both of us are on the same forum and I want to maintain my reputation.

[FredRydr]

$10 isn't worth a hit on your reputation. If the facts warrant, enclose an upbeat note mentioning the miscalculation but a deal's still a deal, and that you want the buyer to enjoy his/her new pen. After several shipments, the international rates become easier to remember for the same weight and size parcel (until 22 Jan 2017 in the USA), but I still try to avoid premature quotes of international shipping and insurance. This ensures I can remain a good ambassador and offer my merchandise to anyone around the world.

Fred

[KrazyIvan]

$10 isn't worth a hit on your reputation. If the facts warrant, enclose an upbeat note mentioning the miscalculation but a deal's still a deal, and that you want the buyer to enjoy his/her new pen. After several shipments, the international rates become easier to remember for the same weight and size parcel (until 22 Jan 2017 in the USA), but I still try to avoid premature quotes of international shipping and insurance. This ensures I can remain a good ambassador and offer my merchandise to anyone around the world.

Fred

Yes, I shipped the pen. I sent a photo of the tracking receipt that shows what I paid but did not mention the difference.

[Chrissy]

I recently bought a mixed box full of inks from an ebay seller in Germany. The listing was a Buy it Now listing, and two of the inks looked interesting so I pulled the trigger and paid.

That seller had sadly miscalculated the postage price. He had listed the box with €8 postage and when he turned up at the Post Office it had cost him €16. So he decided to immediately ask me for the additional amount. When I checked what I should do with ebay, I was advised that in the event the parcel didn't arrive or turned up damaged, I would only get a refund based on my original payment. So I told the seller this, and he became really cross and rude.

When the parcel arrived I found that instead of using a cardboard box, that fit the contents quite well, he had used an overlarge polystyrene packing container, with loads of paper inside it to fill the void not containing the bottles. When I tried the effect of putting the bottles into a cardboard box that they fit into properly, and packaged them with packing peanuts, the parcel weighed half as much as the one that my seller had sent.

So I advised the seller that I was sorry but I wouldn't pay him the additional fee. He was still cross with me for something that was totally down to his own incompetence. :(

[matteob]

The greatest shock I have had regarding US Post was today. I have just joined the Letter Writers Alliance and they have a nice handmade pencil case: $30 "I'll have that" I thought. I clicked in my address and then hit continue and the post quote was $33 standard or $44 expedited. Is it really true that a small canvas pounch costs that much to send abroad? That seems more than a rip off. It seems madness to me. Does the USPS international post cost this excessive amount?I have just bought a stainless steel razor from Canada for example, known for high postage, and the shipping was $10. A razor is heavier than a pencil pouch! I am prone to moaning about Royal Mail but price rises after privatization or not, it seems a paragon of reasonableness compared to the US. I have just sent a boxed mobile phone registered and signed for to India for £7.50.

Bonkers :(

[KrazyIvan]

What needs to be said is the cost of shipping is a negotiated price between the two countries postal services. So, not directly comparable when you are talking US vs. Canada. It cost me $33 to ship to Australia.