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View Full Version : How to know for sure the next vintage Sheaffer you buy is not a FrankenSheaffer ?



lowks
December 17th, 2016, 06:17 PM
I have seen some vintage Sheaffers go for very high prices on some vintage fountain pen sites, the question here is, how do you ensure your pen is 100% of the same pen and not reconstructed from spare bits and pieces ?

jar
December 17th, 2016, 06:39 PM
You don't. And does it matter anyway?

blopplop
December 17th, 2016, 11:58 PM
He's right. It's hard to know for sure. Think of all the things that could be replaced on a snorkel (for example) where it wouldn't matter. The snorkel tube, the sac protector, the blind cap (as long as it matches of course), the section. All of these are replaced all the time and it doesn't matter to one bit IMO.

I've made franken pens before because it fit my preference. One example is, I took a gold snorkel tube from a clipper (I think) and put in a periwinkle Valiant. Then I sent the nib in for a minuskin retip. Man did it look cool!!!!

I know a hard core collector might cringe at the thought, but I sure loved it. :)

Dave


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https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Ak8WRqUvmsoBNI2avJMs2PUXCV-yD-kE6uiH2jb6aIUbmxBU4SImGxg7KkvLeNdwAdaQQxcY04Ic9RJv tVP0WCBAoRrgu_Q1qFHpbNqhO5lbwgMxY-2ZkT6nV6E3jncMNHagUA-UxycKSJ3qkQlr9sKC8zB_QteEiswAPjrlhpKAeNGyAxHifh-BEiB9qRNHw241a67_bqPnjSocza27Pj0n15EPMma0Y0BtXEzza vWtlB8Y6unwmupuazZmHzMWJ_jAyEjPIPrQFctfcyh2IWW5Sec JVpm7DFRQTcGk70Nly-StCCeRSQpXhCUqYhrqp6DitJiC5Qp7MT0mhGGmemQyAlHQKyiT LdOmUa8kzUUrVo8lEfo_RJSuZmZuXaRNB_gZIArtjhwIjilTaE t1eg6XCWEZ0V2YnMSdJ3C9sFbrBb6zf6c_wi-B6xy80i3NNFeIGr-oa29vNZ5UN5h3PNrrvjfyyhbpMY3h5bQO3xlREnsCYxeD9nR6N TYzPWxiUY-D8SZlt1t9n2yFIwfOKfAaVeUXi1S-PcaGHRCxeikmngZSyQUDErDTyo9l6vrbwFbhCg2Tjd70aw15QX hYnti2KpKwmLGvbc4VxMxAexKiic0t=w1268-h951-no

Hawk
December 18th, 2016, 07:49 AM
He's right. It's hard to know for sure. Think of all the things that could be replaced on a snorkel (for example) where it wouldn't matter. The snorkel tube, the sac protector, the blind cap (as long as it matches of course), the section. All of these are replaced all the time and it doesn't matter to one bit IMO.

I've made franken pens before because it fit my preference. One example is, I took a gold snorkel tube from a clipper (I think) and put in a periwinkle Valiant. Then I sent the nib in for a minuskin retip. Man did it look cool!!!!

I know a hard core collector might cringe at the thought, but I sure loved it. :)

Dave


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Vspr9ZMHfihfeZmkjtiQ-MNVuSYjpfu5Q02_lBV5R8bj7455y7rUVkTgXFdlbVHlAYT1qcR GKc3ykRQSS2fNe0kxi9o8gwif7SIEiK1xN0Bmfp6GpzBcmFPm0 QWJIs5f1oVv2bJrYzbD4WcznyZJXEH20b7lkZGH2GfqlCe9e6A JiGg4DM3_Ar9vThHvk9267X4aJ5JD62f-O86FP11608qslgY6XvciWolh5TnTGmo66PjwEqkCHCp9bdL0uA 6QiEw8DnWTAthJTfhsOpSaVwZgYHi-olNEIxPClPa58cw3nRVCHyVb-Y6Bg1Tn5iNEAZTtGMBS92LoQHShiRM6D2sSDdyhoVUkzi8oYoB _Rr-l6mi3Uj21t_PGibDg2JM9fsYui4_qqPJ6eRX_1BOUSWojtTnAY _Q3RapAvY4jc3Cxz6OuV_ilxrbjkUA2PT28fBWn90xZtXw9XwW CRFyHTt-Wdxj-NKfylwwKchVIu7PWG1Vc7jx9ssGc68kR2UMVo02Rf1PCgQmFUz BW_jK3NR9EcxOECSpXzCPNxNO3WfXY0h7uBaDCNJCiPLPeo00V f-OY1c0fupKgMIW56ZweOylMBYKAeTQ2oACEni6XYFqxdpJx5Wkj =w1268-h951-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Ak8WRqUvmsoBNI2avJMs2PUXCV-yD-kE6uiH2jb6aIUbmxBU4SImGxg7KkvLeNdwAdaQQxcY04Ic9RJv tVP0WCBAoRrgu_Q1qFHpbNqhO5lbwgMxY-2ZkT6nV6E3jncMNHagUA-UxycKSJ3qkQlr9sKC8zB_QteEiswAPjrlhpKAeNGyAxHifh-BEiB9qRNHw241a67_bqPnjSocza27Pj0n15EPMma0Y0BtXEzza vWtlB8Y6unwmupuazZmHzMWJ_jAyEjPIPrQFctfcyh2IWW5Sec JVpm7DFRQTcGk70Nly-StCCeRSQpXhCUqYhrqp6DitJiC5Qp7MT0mhGGmemQyAlHQKyiT LdOmUa8kzUUrVo8lEfo_RJSuZmZuXaRNB_gZIArtjhwIjilTaE t1eg6XCWEZ0V2YnMSdJ3C9sFbrBb6zf6c_wi-B6xy80i3NNFeIGr-oa29vNZ5UN5h3PNrrvjfyyhbpMY3h5bQO3xlREnsCYxeD9nR6N TYzPWxiUY-D8SZlt1t9n2yFIwfOKfAaVeUXi1S-PcaGHRCxeikmngZSyQUDErDTyo9l6vrbwFbhCg2Tjd70aw15QX hYnti2KpKwmLGvbc4VxMxAexKiic0t=w1268-h951-no

It's cool if that trips your trigger. If you sell, disclosure would be proper. Franken pens could also be custom pens i.e. Kulick pens.

pajaro
December 18th, 2016, 10:57 AM
As long as the parts are correct, how would anyone know and why would anyone care? You might be better off knowing that all the parts are good.

FredRydr
December 18th, 2016, 03:01 PM
..I've made franken pens before because it fit my preference...I know a hard core collector might cringe at the thought, but I sure loved it.

:amen:

Fred

penwash
December 19th, 2016, 09:02 AM
I have seen some vintage Sheaffers go for very high prices on some vintage fountain pen sites, the question here is, how do you ensure your pen is 100% of the same pen and not reconstructed from spare bits and pieces ?

Unless it's a NOS stock from the person who has first hand knowledge, it's impossible to know for sure, correct?

I agree with the others, what does it matter? If a PFM or a Snorkel works, it has 100% what it needs to work.
These pens don't have a high tolerance for parts-swapping.

Jon Szanto
December 19th, 2016, 12:03 PM
I'd like to speak to the situation of using the term "Frankenpen". I like that term a lot, but I consider it a term for a pen that is a collection of different parts where at least one element does not belong to that pen (model/brand/etc). When we talk of vintage pens, and leave aside one-owner or truly NOS pens, you have to face the fact that it is possible, at some point, that you have to replace a part. Damage, overuse, the run of time, all things that can cause one to have to replace a part during restoration. If the parts used are all part of that basic pen, I don't consider it a Franken. Put a cap from one model on the barrel from another? Not kosher, and certainly Frankenated.

There are probably some grey areas, but if a pen has all the 'correct' parts making it up, I consider it a standard and proper restoration. Mixing up the elements from brands or models earns the name "Franken", and those can be fun on their own, but if not obvious, should be stated as such.

blopplop
December 19th, 2016, 12:10 PM
I agree totally with stating in a sales ad if something was added that is not part of the original pen.

Jon Szanto
December 19th, 2016, 12:23 PM
I agree with the others, what does it matter? If a PFM or a Snorkel works, it has 100% what it needs to work. These pens don't have a high tolerance for parts-swapping.

With one important caveat: a pen that is truly collectible, as an example in original condition, must be original. Even if a pen "works", if it has a part that is easily identifiable as being from another model or era, it will reduce the value of the pen. Whether it works or not, in the situation of collection, is irrelevant.

The point being that there are a few pens where it actually does matter if the parts are correct, not just that they function correctly.

pajaro
December 20th, 2016, 01:58 PM
I agree with the others, what does it matter? If a PFM or a Snorkel works, it has 100% what it needs to work. These pens don't have a high tolerance for parts-swapping.

With one important caveat: a pen that is truly collectible, as an example in original condition, must be original. Even if a pen "works", if it has a part that is easily identifiable as being from another model or era, it will reduce the value of the pen. Whether it works or not, in the situation of collection, is irrelevant.

The point being that there are a few pens where it actually does matter if the parts are correct, not just that they function correctly.

It matters for a collector pen. If all you want is a writer, not so important. In some cases one might assemble parts all NOS and consistent for production era. Then no one might be able to tell. Unless you sold some of the very parts.

pajaro
December 20th, 2016, 02:13 PM
I had a Sheaffer Dolphin Touchdown filler, green section and barrel with a bright metal and gold trim cap that I had bought around the late 1970s in an office supply store for about $8.00 brand new. I loved this pen. A friend borrowed it and sprung the nib. I lamented over this for a long time. Then I began to see parts coming out on ebay. I found a new nib. Then a whole new green Touchdown section. I replaced the dead sac. Something had happened to the barrel, so I found a new one. Then I replaced the o-ring and reassembled the barrel. Voila, the pen was about as good as new. Someone else bent the new nib. I bought a used green Dolphin pen with gold nib, and I won't bring the first one back to life. But it is possible with patience. The nice cap I used on a Touchdown Imperial with fine inlaid nib in burgundy.

Then I bought some other Touchdown and C/C imperials in burgundy and in black. For these I bought 1996 Holly pen caps. I think I'll use them all year long. I have the NOS 1996 real Holly pen and ballpoint, but the red is garish and doesn't look as nice as burgundy or black with that cap. Just a seasonal note.

Jon Szanto
December 20th, 2016, 05:21 PM
I agree with the others, what does it matter? If a PFM or a Snorkel works, it has 100% what it needs to work. These pens don't have a high tolerance for parts-swapping.

With one important caveat: a pen that is truly collectible, as an example in original condition, must be original. Even if a pen "works", if it has a part that is easily identifiable as being from another model or era, it will reduce the value of the pen. Whether it works or not, in the situation of collection, is irrelevant.

The point being that there are a few pens where it actually does matter if the parts are correct, not just that they function correctly.

It matters for a collector pen.

I believe that is what I said.

pajaro
December 20th, 2016, 08:14 PM
I agree with the others, what does it matter? If a PFM or a Snorkel works, it has 100% what it needs to work. These pens don't have a high tolerance for parts-swapping.

With one important caveat: a pen that is truly collectible, as an example in original condition, must be original. Even if a pen "works", if it has a part that is easily identifiable as being from another model or era, it will reduce the value of the pen. Whether it works or not, in the situation of collection, is irrelevant.

The point being that there are a few pens where it actually does matter if the parts are correct, not just that they function correctly.

It matters for a collector pen.

I believe that is what I said.

So what's your point? I was reiterating it and going on with a further statement.

Your point is that I am not allowed to reiterate it?

penwash
December 20th, 2016, 09:05 PM
I agree with the others, what does it matter? If a PFM or a Snorkel works, it has 100% what it needs to work. These pens don't have a high tolerance for parts-swapping.

With one important caveat: a pen that is truly collectible, as an example in original condition, must be original. Even if a pen "works", if it has a part that is easily identifiable as being from another model or era, it will reduce the value of the pen. Whether it works or not, in the situation of collection, is irrelevant.

The point being that there are a few pens where it actually does matter if the parts are correct, not just that they function correctly.

It matters for a collector pen. If all you want is a writer, not so important. In some cases one might assemble parts all NOS and consistent for production era. Then no one might be able to tell. Unless you sold some of the very parts.

I enjoy writing with fountain pens, and I also enjoy collecting pens.
On top of that, there is a space in my collection for pens that are *precisely* don't have original parts anymore, but is beautiful, one-of-a-kind, functional, and awesomely unique.

That last bit makes me weird according to some collectors that I've spoken to, who value "original condition and parts" beyond anything else.
But it's fine by me, more of those quirky, unique pens for me to collect.

pajaro
December 20th, 2016, 09:24 PM
With used pens is it so important that all parts be original to the pen? With used pens I would think replacement with correct parts would be sufficient for a collector. Where I would want all original parts would be with an NOS pen, or with a never inked pen. There would seem to be a value there in having all parts original for a collector pen that was never used. I don't think it's all black or white. I think there are various conditions and degrees of condition defined by collectors for these contingencies.

Jon Szanto
December 20th, 2016, 11:11 PM
So what's your point? I was reiterating it and going on with a further statement.

Your point is that I am not allowed to reiterate it?

I'm sorry, I thought you were refuting it in some way. I've obviously misread your response.

Jon Szanto
December 20th, 2016, 11:15 PM
That last bit makes me weird according to some collectors that I've spoken to, who value "original condition and parts" beyond anything else.
But it's fine by me, more of those quirky, unique pens for me to collect.

I don't think it makes you weird. The thing is, I believe that you know what you are doing, and are well aware that those pens will not - head-to-head with collectibles that have not been altered or made up of disparate parts - be worth as much in terms of sale. And the important point, in discussions such as this, is that the readers realize that a value to the owner, especially of a unique item, can be very different than the value in the market.

I would just hate to see someone bung up an old pen, thinking they were improving it, and find out that when they want to sell their lovely creation, they've hosed the value. For any pen meant for a personal collection, do whatever the hell you want. I do!

Wade
December 21st, 2016, 08:56 AM
A lot of the distinction comes from the intention of the owner. Are you intending to collect/display or sell to another collector? Keep it original best you can. Are you intending to USE the pen? (please say yes) Then do what must be done to make the pen into what it was made to be... a functional tool.

penwash
December 21st, 2016, 10:22 AM
That last bit makes me weird according to some collectors that I've spoken to, who value "original condition and parts" beyond anything else.
But it's fine by me, more of those quirky, unique pens for me to collect.

I don't think it makes you weird. The thing is, I believe that you know what you are doing, and are well aware that those pens will not - head-to-head with collectibles that have not been altered or made up of disparate parts - be worth as much in terms of sale. And the important point, in discussions such as this, is that the readers realize that a value to the owner, especially of a unique item, can be very different than the value in the market.

I would just hate to see someone bung up an old pen, thinking they were improving it, and find out that when they want to sell their lovely creation, they've hosed the value. For any pen meant for a personal collection, do whatever the hell you want. I do!

Jon, you raised a good question in my mind. Let's use an example:

Pen #1: One Parker 51 with a rare gold cap that is quite ornate. So this pen is doubly-rare, plus, with certifiable original parts.

Pen #2: Another Parker 51 similar to Pen #1 but with replaced internals, but the gold cap has been hand-hammered by Brad Torelli.

Which one would you say is more valuable in the collector's circle?

I would submit that there are some collectors who will pay more for Pen #1 and equally possible to have another group of collectors who would pay more for Pen #2. Given the above situation, I would probably be in the second group because I value more the hours that Mr. Torellli put into the cap to make it a unique piece of art.

Of course, I reserve my right to change my mind a decade from now (hahaha).

Jon Szanto
December 21st, 2016, 11:14 AM
I would submit that there are some collectors who will pay more for Pen #1 and equally possible to have another group of collectors who would pay more for Pen #2. Given the above situation, I would probably be in the second group because I value more the hours that Mr. Torellli put into the cap to make it a unique piece of art.

You may submit that if you wish, but I think it indicates a degree of unfamiliarity with the world of (pen) collectors. This all revolves around the concept of what is a 'collectible'. To say that an item interests you and that you would like it in your collection does not define it as being collectible; I would suggest that it is more important that the item would be considered, by other collectors, for inclusion in a collection. Of course there is always a market for the unique and unusual, but I think any reasonable look at auctions, shows, and online sales of collections would clearly indicate a heavy leaning towards those items still intact, original or as close to original as possible, and this goes for collectibles of all types, not just fountain pens.

Marsilius
December 21st, 2016, 08:04 PM
Almost like Daniel Boone's original axe: on its fifth head and eight handle.