Let's make America Grate Again.

[jar]

“No dream is too big, no challenge is to great. Nothing we want for the future is beyond our reach,”

From the Official Inauguration Print.

[stub]

oof

[stub]

...

[matteob]

Get rid of that delusional, vain nutcase who you call your President for a start. He has trashed the respect and stwnding of the US in the world.

[stub]

...

[matteob]

Well it is up to US citizens to hold him to account and give him the boot. I don't think he is fit for office personally: 25th Amendment time. I don't blame Americans who are on the breadline for buying into his bs and Hilary would have been almost as bad but now enough is enough. Even the right wing of the Republicans, Jeff Session for goodness sake, have said his giving neo nazis credibility and succour is a step too far. All my US buddies say they loathe him but I wonder how many voted for him in secret?

[LeFreak]

Not to be That Person, but it's ARTICLE 25.

[Freddie]

XXV Amendment ..... Section IV


......he was driving too fast......

Fred

Is this Gettysburg or First Manassas?

[Farmboy]

Is The United States no longer Great?

[jar]

Keep Trump. At least he is totally incompetent. The others in line are evil and competent and that is really scary.

[lsmith42]

Is The United States no longer Great?

https://youtu.be/q49NOyJ8fNA

[Jerome Tarshis]

Keep Trump. At least he is totally incompetent. The others in line are evil and competent and that is really scary.

Hear, hear. (To maintain the spirit of this thread, should I have written "here, here"?)

[stub]

...

[Titivillus]

“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart’s desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” — H. L. Mencken

[matteob]

This does make me warm a bit more to Big Don. Driving himself with Barron up front and Melania in the back listening to Taylor Swift albeit in a Rolls Royce Phantom!

https://youtu.be/XqmmEso_2sI

[FredRydr]

For those who like writing postcards with their fountain pens and mailing them around the world, here is a nice selection: (https://www.etsy.com/listing/497507790/trump-postcard-sets-fundraiser?ref=shop_home_feat_2)

https://img0.etsystatic.com/151/0/5813238/il_570xN.1139350740_9yu6.jpg

The art reminds me of the work of political cartoonist Gerald Scarfe (http://www.geraldscarfe.com) in The Sunday Times and Punch (R.I.P.).

[myu]

The grating is getting so severe, a gnashing of teeth, to the point where the enamel is almost worn off. Every week that goes by, the chaos increases, all the while the crazed man shouts over the fray "No chaos!". Sickening. Now we've got two more nut jobs in the house... Bolton and diGenova.

[SIR]

Gosh, you guys are so negative!

[adhoc]

Is The United States no longer Great?

Depends on how you define great. If you’re talking about killing people, it’s #1 in the world. If you’re talking about measurable indices of a modern country, it’s mediocre in most categories.

[SIR]

High average life expectancy... higher than the UK.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

According the WHO (2015 figures) life expectance in the UK is 81.2 years across all sexes, and the US is 79.3 years. :noidea:

[Farmboy]

According the WHO (2015 figures) life expectance in the UK is 81.2 years across all sexes, and the US is 79.3 years. :noidea:

And most of Africa shouldn't expect to see 60 years old.

[adhoc]

High average life expectancy... higher than the UK.

Not true. Life expectancy in USA is lower than even Slovenia, let alone UK. Actually, USA falls behind Slovenia in most measurable indices, and I have never heard anyone say we’re a great country, including our own citizens.

It gave me a nice chuckle when a major liberal US news outlet basically called Melania Trumps country (Slovenia) a shithole after Trumps shithole comment. If we’re a shithole, USA is one as well. But then again, from my experience, average American thinks we’re a former USSR satellite state, so one can’t really have high expectations. And honestly, why would an American know anything about a country that has the population of a NYC district. That’s like expecting average European to know stuff about...city of Bismarck (USA, ND).

[Scooby921]

Slovenia, home of Elan skis, pioneers of the "shape ski" revolution.

[adhoc]

Right. But your average American could not state a single fact about us. And that's perfectly fine, as we're one of the most irrelevant countries in human history. I just want to say that when one can say USA is on par or below Slovenia [in something], that's not a positive statement. It's positive to be on par with ... Austria or Denmark, for example.

[SIR]

According the WHO (2015 figures) life expectance in the UK is 81.2 years across all sexes, and the US is 79.3 years. :noidea:



High average life expectancy... higher than the UK.

Not true. Life expectancy in USA is lower than even Slovenia, let alone UK.

Maybe the figures I saw were out of date... or measured differently.


Slovenia, home of Elan skis

And UF-PRO!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw7qQIJBg74

[adhoc]

Lmao. I find it funny seeing all this tactical gear and recognize the buildings and environment. We have some of the lowest crime in the world. If you don’t bang somebody elses wife, chances of getting attacked is like winning the lottery. This is clearly not made for the domestic market.

Edit: hahaha, I watched some of their other videos on youtube. They’re shot on the streets where the biggest crime is the bars close at 2300 already, and the tone of the video is same as some Hollywoods save the world scenario.

[SIR]

Of course, you do still have special forces military and police units... also, UF-PRO's products are well made and technologically sophisticated.

[mhosea]

High average life expectancy... higher than the UK.

Not true. Life expectancy in USA is lower than even Slovenia, let alone UK. Actually, USA falls behind Slovenia in most measurable indices, and I have never heard anyone say we’re a great country, including our own citizens.


Well, life expectancy is convoluted with genetics and lifestyle. Not surprised we aren't tops. Maybe it's got something to do with drug abuse and obesity or that we don't get enough sleep or something. Who knows? And then there's stress. I would imagine that life expectancy is dropping in the US right now because so many people here are suffering from Trump Derangement Syndrome and are stressing themselves out over the impending end of the world. God forbid that we should have secure borders. Oh, the humanity! And all the while they fiercely and relentlessly advocate for restricting 1A and 2A rights (because people are dangerous, and who knows what they might say or do next if they remain free..and...<gasp> armed). In turn that's stressing out libertarians and conservatives who can't help but notice that the erstwhile liberal left has morphed into a syndicate of cultural Marxists who literally hate them, blame them for every social problem there ever was (including those precipitated by previous varieties of Marxists), and would very much like to seem them and all their "hateful" ideas repressed. Yeah, life expectancy is probably not something we're in position to excel at right now.

Incidentally, if one wishes to step back from the brink, from this irrational frenzy of worry whipped up by social and mainstream media, some actual data like https://www.humanprogress.org/ might help one decompress a little. It's hard for good news to generate the clicks that bad news can. Personally, I think that's the root of it all.

[SIR]

God forbid that we should have secure borders. Oh, the humanity! And all the while they fiercely and relentlessly advocate for restricting 1A and 2A rights (because people are dangerous, and who knows what they might say or do next if they remain free..and...<gasp> armed).

It would seem the same forces that have blighted Britain greatly, and Europe also but to a lesser extent, are attempting the same tricks in the US... the question is who, how, and to what end?

[adhoc]

I wouldn’t have expected to agree with people on this forum on political issues, but here we are. It’s sad to see America slowly giving up their freedom for false sense of security.

That’s easy to answer SIR; it’s the people you’re not allowed to criticize.

[SIR]

it’s the people you’re not allowed to criticize.

or... because those who you may think of first may just be pawns of those who you might think of last - those who are so well established we forget they are subtly embedded and overlook the demonstrable continuity of their history; but it's only a suggestion.

[Gobblecup]

How can you make America great and put America first by increasing my healthcare costs by 20 times in the first year in office? How can you put America first by taking away healthcare from the poor and labeling the sick as uninsurable? This is a dark dark time for the USA. It makes me hope that we eventually rid ourselves of the executive office for good and develop a culture of voting in the midterms.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

This is just my opinion - and outsider's one at that - but I would like to see an end to financially-based lobbying together with severe consequences for corruption. Politicians have to be held accountable to an agreed standard, otherwise what you get is what you are seeing now - a President who lies on average 6 times a day since taking office, with a staff who blithely overlook such things.

Also, it beggars belief (mine) that the public can overlook such egregious falsity in their leaders when we are in an age where simple fact checking is available to almost anyone in the US.

Further, I would like to see press people stand up and call-out the liars at conferences. Otherwise they are participating in accepting the lies. In fact, I wish there were more people who stood up and did this at any rally where a politician blatantly lies.

[adhoc]

I don’t know about that...have you been watching the situation? There’s A LOT of backlash.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Not nearly enough.

[myu]

This is just my opinion - and outsider's one at that - but I would like to see an end to financially-based lobbying together with severe consequences for corruption. Politicians have to be held accountable to an agreed standard, otherwise what you get is what you are seeing now - a President who lies on average 6 times a day since taking office, with a staff who blithely overlook such things.

Also, it beggars belief (mine) that the public can overlook such egregious falsity in their leaders when we are in an age where simple fact checking is available to almost anyone in the US.

Further, I would like to see press people stand up and call-out the liars at conferences. Otherwise they are participating in accepting the lies. In fact, I wish there were more people who stood up and did this at any rally where a politician blatantly lies.
The free ticket to lie must end. While trying to form a "truth-sayer" department or institution of truth is fraught with problems, there SHOULD be some kind of accuracy measure provided at debates. Factual accuracy of statements can be categorized in various ways. There is of course the broad labels of True, False, True-False, and False-True. "True-False" means the statement is mostly true, but partly false. "False-True" means the statement is mostly false, but partly true. Those partly ambiguous statements must then have a weight to them, some kind of scale on true and false. Then we can know which candidates are mostly truthful and mostly liars.

Where ALL of these politicians go awry is spinning facts in their own crafted statements that either distort actual facts or state them out of context, bending their truth to suit their own agenda.

What we need is truly objective scrutiny. I think that once we have sophisticated enough computer systems, this could be achieved as long as information is properly authenticated. Sources will have an accuracy score.

The other issue is that for a notable number of people, emotion and belief will outweigh facts. They won't fact-check, nor believe people who pontificate the facts, if their own beliefs are being challenged. And THAT needs to be addressed somehow. I would hope that one day we'll have a savant or genius who can come up with the right psychological recipe for helping people to break away from holding onto falsehoods and accept truth. There are too many people corrupted by counter-fact thinking, to the point where our political course is getting knocked into chaos severe enough to disrupt society.

[jar]

This is just my opinion - and outsider's one at that - but I would like to see an end to financially-based lobbying together with severe consequences for corruption. Politicians have to be held accountable to an agreed standard, otherwise what you get is what you are seeing now - a President who lies on average 6 times a day since taking office, with a staff who blithely overlook such things.

Also, it beggars belief (mine) that the public can overlook such egregious falsity in their leaders when we are in an age where simple fact checking is available to almost anyone in the US.

Further, I would like to see press people stand up and call-out the liars at conferences. Otherwise they are participating in accepting the lies. In fact, I wish there were more people who stood up and did this at any rally where a politician blatantly lies.
The free ticket to lie must end. While trying to form a "truth-sayer" department or institution of truth is fraught with problems, there SHOULD be some kind of accuracy measure provided at debates. Factual accuracy of statements can be categorized in various ways. There is of course the broad labels of True, False, True-False, and False-True. "True-False" means the statement is mostly true, but partly false. "False-True" means the statement is mostly false, but partly true. Those partly ambiguous statements must then have a weight to them, some kind of scale on true and false. Then we can know which candidates are mostly truthful and mostly liars.

Where ALL of these politicians go awry is spinning facts in their own crafted statements that either distort actual facts or state them out of context, bending their truth to suit their own agenda.

What we need is truly objective scrutiny. I think that once we have sophisticated enough computer systems, this could be achieved as long as information is properly authenticated. Sources will have an accuracy score.

The other issue is that for a notable number of people, emotion and belief will outweigh facts. They won't fact-check, nor believe people who pontificate the facts, if their own beliefs are being challenged. And THAT needs to be addressed somehow. I would hope that one day we'll have a savant or genius who can come up with the right psychological recipe for helping people to break away from holding onto falsehoods and accept truth. There are too many people corrupted by counter-fact thinking, to the point where our political course is getting knocked into chaos severe enough to disrupt society.

I can only address US culture and have no idea what other nations might be like; but in the US we seem to be working very hard to create a society who have no idea how to think and are unwilling to even attempt to learn the basics of discrimination.

There is a local Toyota dealer currently advertising "Reclaimed Titled Cars" at $99.00 a month. Sounds great. Likely someone who could not make the monthlies and so had the car repossessed.

WRONG!

A Reclaimed title actually has a very specific meaning; it is a Salvage Title, one that says the car was damaged so badly it was written off as a total loss. Often it is a car that was in a flood and filled with water for days or weeks or one with frame damage beyond what can be straightened or other really not good features.

But the sale goes on. People are buying these cars that look great but that are not the gems a can or two of "New Car Smell' will fix.

[mhosea]

The other issue is that for a notable number of people, emotion and belief will outweigh facts. They won't fact-check, nor believe people who pontificate the facts, if their own beliefs are being challenged. And THAT needs to be addressed somehow. I would hope that one day we'll have a savant or genius who can come up with the right psychological recipe for helping people to break away from holding onto falsehoods and accept truth. There are too many people corrupted by counter-fact thinking, to the point where our political course is getting knocked into chaos severe enough to disrupt society.

https://www.amazon.com/Righteous-Mind-Divided-Politics-Religion/dp/0307455777

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51RY0HDGDTL._SX322_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

[myu]

https://i.imgur.com/xbZqghj.jpg

[dneal]

https://i.imgur.com/xbZqghj.jpg

For a person that says “The other issue is that for a notable number of people, emotion and belief will outweigh facts. They won't fact-check, nor believe people who pontificate the facts, if their own beliefs are being challenged...”, your posts appear to me to indicate a strong bias and that you might be one of those very people. Are you really interested in the reasonable debate you mentioned in the 2A thread?

[mhosea]

There’s a sort of test for commitment to reasoned debate. Does the person make a good faith effort to characterize opposing viewpoints accurately and, in whatever aspects are relevant to the topic at hand, completely? Does the person work cooperatively with their opponent to establish the clearest possible expression of their opponent’s position, and then proceed to argue against that? If not, then they’re not committed to reasoned debate, for no honest person interested in applying reason to find truths would see any point to arguing against a strawman, nor would they stoop to the purely political tactic of appealing to emotion rather than reason.

[SIR]

Lmao. I find it funny seeing all this tactical gear and recognize the buildings and environment. We have some of the lowest crime in the world. If you don’t bang somebody elses wife, chances of getting attacked is like winning the lottery. This is clearly not made for the domestic market.

Edit: hahaha, I watched some of their other videos on youtube. They’re shot on the streets where the biggest crime is the bars close at 2300 already, and the tone of the video is same as some Hollywoods save the world scenario.

Yeah, I like this one...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWHdLhX1pI4

[myu]

https://i.imgur.com/xbZqghj.jpg

For a person that says “The other issue is that for a notable number of people, emotion and belief will outweigh facts. They won't fact-check, nor believe people who pontificate the facts, if their own beliefs are being challenged...”, your posts appear to me to indicate a strong bias and that you might be one of those very people. Are you really interested in the reasonable debate you mentioned in the 2A thread?
You think my post is some debate point? It's not. It's poking fun. Sometimes it's hard to resist, but there are different types of posts people make here.

Trump wouldn't know good diplomacy if it bit him on the ass. He comes from the negotiation school of intimidation for business financial dealings. Political negotiation is a different kind of animal. It's a long term game. It's a delicate balance between challenge and respect. Trump doesn't play that game. He disrespects freely when he feels he holds all the cards. Despite the USA being the strongest player on the board doesn't mean that it remains so if the other players band together. Trump seems to follow the "marital scuff" strategy, whereby you shout and denigrate your spouse until both sides are exhausted from all the stress and tension, to be followed with make-up sex. His insults to other leaders won't be forgotten anytime soon. There was no point in denigrating them. So when Trump leaves, he throws rocks from a distance with his tweets, insulting Trudeau as being dishonest and weak. Reeks of schoolyard bullying, what he employed against his Republican contenders. It's one thing to do it to people of your own party, but for leaders of allied countries? It's disgraceful.

I don't care if trade tariffs have been unfair to the USA--you can negotiate them with intellect and poise, instead of intimidation and insults, and you'll make much more progress.

[myu]

From NY Times article, Trump Was Outfoxed in Singapore (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/12/opinion/trump-kim-summit-north-korea.html):

The most remarkable aspect of the joint statement was what it didn’t contain. There was nothing about North Korea freezing plutonium and uranium programs, nothing about destroying intercontinental ballistic missiles, nothing about allowing inspectors to return to nuclear sites, nothing about North Korea making a full declaration of its nuclear program, nothing about a timetable, nothing about verification, not even any clear pledge to permanently halt testing of nuclear weapons or long-range missiles.

Kim seems to have completely out-negotiated Trump, and it’s scary that Trump doesn’t seem to realize this. For now Trump has much less to show than past negotiators who hammered out deals with North Korea like the 1994 Agreed Framework, which completely froze the country’s plutonium program with a rigorous monitoring system.

Of course, Trump thinks he's the master negotiator. He doesn't need any political savvy. He'll just "get a good deal." No, he didn't. No, he won't. Given how he blindsided even his own staff with various declarations, I wouldn't be surprised if this was all about TRUMP... spending millions of dollars on a "faux summit", just to set up a situation he could spin into some kind of imagined win for himself and his brazenly ignorant supporters.

The facts of the meeting - the concrete results - they don't matter in the slightest to Trump's base.

https://s19.postimg.cc/71yt5by0j/Kim_Jong_Un_Trump_Faded-flag.jpg

https://s19.postimg.cc/ejclycxir/Kim_Jong_Un_Strings.jpg

[dneal]

https://i.imgur.com/xbZqghj.jpg

For a person that says “The other issue is that for a notable number of people, emotion and belief will outweigh facts. They won't fact-check, nor believe people who pontificate the facts, if their own beliefs are being challenged...”, your posts appear to me to indicate a strong bias and that you might be one of those very people. Are you really interested in the reasonable debate you mentioned in the 2A thread?
You think my post is some debate point? It's not. It's poking fun. Sometimes it's hard to resist, but there are different types of posts people make here.

Trump wouldn't know good diplomacy if it bit him on the ass. He comes from the negotiation school of intimidation for business financial dealings. Political negotiation is a different kind of animal. It's a long term game. It's a delicate balance between challenge and respect. Trump doesn't play that game. He disrespects freely when he feels he holds all the cards. Despite the USA being the strongest player on the board doesn't mean that it remains so if the other players band together. Trump seems to follow the "marital scuff" strategy, whereby you shout and denigrate your spouse until both sides are exhausted from all the stress and tension, to be followed with make-up sex. His insults to other leaders won't be forgotten anytime soon. There was no point in denigrating them. So when Trump leaves, he throws rocks from a distance with his tweets, insulting Trudeau as being dishonest and weak. Reeks of schoolyard bullying, what he employed against his Republican contenders. It's one thing to do it to people of your own party, but for leaders of allied countries? It's disgraceful.

I don't care if trade tariffs have been unfair to the USA--you can negotiate them with intellect and poise, instead of intimidation and insults, and you'll make much more progress.

Not sure what all that was about. I notice you posted about having a civil debate (independent of the topic). I was just asking, because your posts seem to indicate otherwise.

[myu]

Not sure what all that was about. I notice you posted about having a civil debate (independent of the topic). I was just asking, because your posts seem to indicate otherwise.
"Are you really interested in the reasonable debate", but you suggested I don't seem capable of that as you believe I only argue from opinions and not facts.

But here's a fact -- the G7 summit was a diplomatic disaster for the USA. Relations are very unsettled with our allies who attended, hence the remarks from Trudeau... and the crass zinger from Trump to follow. And yet, when challenged by a reporter about Trump's claims that all allied relationships are at a "10", Trump asked for his identity then when he learned it was CNN ripped into him for that, with more "fake news" zingers. Talk about not being able to have any proper, productive informational interchanges between the president and reporters. Any question that is either too hard for him to tackle or that he deems as drawing negative attention to him, Trump side-steps giving any response to the question and then just insults people. MAGA.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJLtDRrimAs

[jar]

So world economic reality.

Trump says the EU is a trading foe.

World GDP figures are in.

Largest economy in the world today: China.
Next: EU
In third place: US

Basic Canada-US-Mexico NAFTA figures.
Mexico now a larger economy than Canada.
Mexico now sees more US citizens immigrating TO Mexico than Mexican Citizens immigrating TO US.

Other Trump foes:
Canada & Mexico.

Still left to piss off:
Maybe India next, and Africa.

[SIR]

Really love Mr. President's sense of humour and use of irony in responding as his country's elected representative to expression of reactionary and petit bougeois behaviour by natives during traditional state visit...

Mayor of London allows flying of balloon caricaturing visiting foreign dignitary as a baby;
Leader of first state to gain independence from British Empire politely declares {so-called} Queen of England to be beautiful and says that she reminds him of his mother!

[HitBoi]

Wow, lots of folk in here seem to 1. know more than a billionaire, Wharton educated United States President 2. believe in whatever their favorite political mouthpiece organization wants to peddle at the moment and 3. let the emotional parts of their brains overrule their rational, decision-making parts only to confirm their own bias.

Let's stick to talking about fountain pens, this group is much more adept at that stuff anyways. It was a good laugh anyhow.

[SIR]

to be fair... this is the politics etc subforum, so what do you expect?

[VA Jay]

Here I was thinking this was a forum on grated cheese. :p

[azkid]

Here I was thinking this was a forum on grated cheese. :pSounds good, let's roll with that. :D

[Scooby921]

Here I was thinking this was a forum on grated cheese. :p
Yeah, I read the thread title and expected a debate on Wisconsin or California cheese being better.

[adhoc]

So world economic reality.

Trump says the EU is a trading foe.

World GDP figures are in.

Largest economy in the world today: China.
Next: EU
In third place: US

Basic Canada-US-Mexico NAFTA figures.
Mexico now a larger economy than Canada.
Mexico now sees more US citizens immigrating TO Mexico than Mexican Citizens immigrating TO US.

Other Trump foes:
Canada & Mexico.

Still left to piss off:
Maybe India next, and Africa.

Source?

[azkid]

Sources inline...

> Largest economy in the world today: China.

No source -- because I can only find evidence China is #2 GDP (nominal), by country, and #3 if considering EU, at $12Tn (nominal).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

Next: EU

Yes, EU is #2.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_European_Union


The European Union is the second largest economy in the world in nominal terms and according to purchasing power parity (PPP). The European Union's GDP was estimated to be*$19.7 trillion*(nominal) in 2018, representing ~22% of global economy (nominal global GDP).

> In third place: US
Nope, it is the largest. US > $19Tn.


Source?

Hope that helps. I didn't think Trump's "vision" of trade ("TRADE IS BAD") and trading partners/allies was in dispute. But if so it wouldn't be hard to find evidence of his views on NAFTA, KORUS, TPP, and specific countries, starting with the book _Fear_.

[adhoc]

Thanks for not forgetting to write down your hysterical ramble about “the literal Hitler two-scoops Drumpf”, but no, your post did not help, because the reason I asked for source was because noone reports the numbers mentioned, except the poster himself, who as-a-matter-of-factly said everyone does.

Thanks for nothing, though!

[myu]

https://i.postimg.cc/C17FzFc6/Harley-Quinn-Congress.jpg

[mhosea]

https://i.postimg.cc/C17FzFc6/Harley-Quinn-Congress.jpg

What does that mean?

[myu]

What does that mean?
It's it obvious?
:lazy2:
Senate won't have a complicit, cooperative Congress in which to perpetuate the corrupt narratives.

[mhosea]

What does that mean?
It's it obvious?
:lazy2:
Senate won't have a complicit, cooperative Congress in which to perpetuate the corrupt narratives.

No, indeed. What I was really asking was whether that female character, whom I do not recognize, carries along with her some redeeming connotations from a role in a work of fiction, something that might help me to interpret her threat of violence as anything more nuanced. Not being familiar with that character, I took you to be suggesting that the Senate will have a disruptive, violent, and possibly sociopathic Congress to deal with.

[ilikenails]

Not being familiar with that character

Maybe it's one of the Donald's working girls from Moscow???

[ilikenails]

There’s a sort of test for commitment to reasoned debate. Does the person make a good faith effort to characterize opposing viewpoints accurately

...No, that's not a "test" - it's mistaking your opinion for fact. A real test is objective, not subjective. All your statement shows is that you don't know the difference.


no honest person interested in applying reason to find truths would see any point to arguing against a strawman

Well, so much for Abraham Lincoln...


nor would they stoop to the purely political tactic of appealing to emotion rather than reason.

Reason and emotion aren't separate: to speak of appealing to reason instead of emotion is nonsensical. All human values are at bottom emotional, rationality's role is reconciling different values and seeing that they are achieved.

(I have no idea what side of this debate you are on, btw.)

[ilikenails]

Trump wouldn't know good diplomacy if it bit him on the ass. He comes from the negotiation school of intimidation for business financial dealings.


Actually, as a businessman he'd pretty lousy. A certain sort of person - the type of people who are fodder to multilevel marketing companies - think he's successful because he'd rich and plays a big shot on a "reality" TV show. But he inherited his money, has repeatedly wobbled on the edge of bankruptcy, and has done pretty poorly at making more money, eg

https://www.ajc.com/blog/kyle-wingfield/donald-trump-successful-businessman-not-really/7JBB03UixvUTnaYoiatDtN/

Trump has underperformed the real estate market by approximately $13.2 billion, or 57%,' since 1976, says John Griffin, a finance professor at the University of Texas, who compared Trump's stated net worth with four decades of returns on the FTSE NAREIT All Equity Index."
That's right: Griffin is making the case that, had Trump in 1976 simply invested his reported fortune at the time of "more than $200 million" in a real-estate index fund, he would have another $13.2 billion to his name. And that's after taking Trump's word that his net worth is $10 billion, about which observers such as Forbes magazine have their doubts.

..When your business skills are worse - a LOT worse - than relying on blind luck - which is what this means - you suck.

But Trump's voters don't understand this, because they see him acting like he's successful on that show. Well, like the guy in the big hat said "If God did not want them to be sheared, he would not have made them sheep."





Despite the USA being the strongest player on the board doesn't mean that it remains so if the other players band together.

It isn't and never has been. Part of being a strong player is the willingness to take damage: the US has always rated very low - it's the equivalent of a big guy in high school who spends lots of time in martial arts classes but is scared to get into a real fight. If you're North Korea then you're much more scared of Russia or China. Another part of being a strong player is the ability to act freely in your best national interests. Again, the US government isn't - it's too constrained by special interests and a notably volatile and uninformed electorate.

[ilikenails]

..And Trump's record in the casino business is even more hilariously awful (same link) -

"For 10 years between 1995 and 2005, Donald Trump ran Trump Hotels &amp; Casino Resorts -- and he did it so badly and incompetently that it collapsed into Chapter 11 bankruptcy. His stockholders were almost entirely wiped out, losing a staggering 89% of their money. The company actually lost money every single year. In total it racked up more than $600 million in net losses over that period.
"Trump was chairman of the board throughout the entire time, and CEO as well for about half of it.

"This is the sort of record usually associated with an Enron or a WorldCom or a Pets.com.

"Meanwhile, over the same period, all his competitors were enjoying an enormous boom."

Indeed, returns for Trump's casino competitors during that time ranged from 60 percent to 3,240 percent; a Dow Jones index of casino companies grew by 160 percent during that time, as Trump's holdings shrank by 89 percent.

I honestly feel sorry for the average Trump voter. Yes, they're often at least mildly racist and generally not very bright, but that's much of the human race. And these people are often the losers who have been abused or neglected by both parties. That they're not bright enough to help themselves and have elected a sociopathic loser doesn't mean they actually deserve the suffering that he'll inflict on them.

Of course, I feel even sorrier for all the smart, non-racist people who didn't vote for Muppetolini..

[Farmboy]

I’ve casually watched this thread. In an effort to comply I grated Asiago, Romano, and Cheddar this morning. This particular combination makes Great cheese toast.

[FredRydr]

https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Flittlegreenfootballs.com%2Fweblog% 2Fimg%2Fthanos%2F2016%2F11%2F13%2Fmencken_quote.jp g&f=1

[calamus]

Mencken was an optimist. The White House has been occupied by a succession of fools and narcissistic morons for ages.

[calamus]

https://i.imgur.com/dw8T9so.jpg

[SIR]

Obama wasn't so bad, neither is Trump, and nor is Iran... perspective and interpretation --- and then, communication and negotiation;
just think
North Korea.

People are people, we all have agendas and we ain't all that much different.

[adhoc]

What I don’t understand about american politics (experience with which is limited to online interactions only, though) is that everyone is so absolute. There’s not a single american I have ever talked to that has said “yeah trump did this and this right, but I disagree with this and this”.

It’s either trump is literally hitler and obama was a saint of saints, or obama is literally satan, and trump is the savior of america. Neither of which is true.

What brings this out in people? Such an irrational thought process is surely not human nature. Is it the two party system of US? I know it’s not two party system per se, but in practice it is.

[mhosea]

...No, that's not a "test" - it's mistaking your opinion for fact. A real test is objective, not subjective. All your statement shows is that you don't know the difference.


It was obviously my opinion rather than a fact, just as you have obviously stated your opinions, not facts.

[EricTheRed]

What I don’t understand about american politics (experience with which is limited to online interactions only, though) is that everyone is so absolute. There’s not a single american I have ever talked to that has said “yeah trump did this and this right, but I disagree with this and this”.

It’s either trump is literally hitler and obama was a saint of saints, or obama is literally satan, and trump is the savior of america. Neither of which is true.

What brings this out in people? Such an irrational thought process is surely not human nature. Is it the two party system of US? I know it’s not two party system per se, but in practice it is.

There are a large number of Americans who rationally like some of Trump, Obama's, Clinton, Reagan, and other Presidents decisions and dislike others for very good reasons. They just do not post on this thread :-)

[dneal]

What I don’t understand about american politics (experience with which is limited to online interactions only, though) is that everyone is so absolute. There’s not a single american I have ever talked to that has said “yeah trump did this and this right, but I disagree with this and this”.

It’s either trump is literally hitler and obama was a saint of saints, or obama is literally satan, and trump is the savior of america. Neither of which is true.

What brings this out in people? Such an irrational thought process is surely not human nature. Is it the two party system of US? I know it’s not two party system per se, but in practice it is.

I think it's a combination of things. We don't teach people to think critically, for starters. "People do a whole lot of feeling, and mistake it for thinking", to paraphrase Mark Twain.

"Yellow Journalism" is cranked to 11. Some of it is obvious political agenda, some of it is desperation for readership/viewership/bottom line financials. Sensation sells.

Some of it is getting used to the ability for millions of people to communicate near instantaneously. Twitter, facebook, forums, comment sections, etc... Who knew there were so many assholes with computers... ;)

There is the nature of the American political landscape. Democrats held power in the Congress roughly 60 years, until the 94 mid term elections. Both houses have been hotly contested since then.

There are more factors, but these are key to inflaming emotions, doubling down on ideology, and increasing the partisanship of the American electorate.

[azkid]

Definitely yes about critical thinking. Most people probably couldn't name let alone explain five cognitive biases or five logical fallacies.

Online echo chambers haven't helped us understand other viewpoints.

Clearly the tendency—and likely knowledge of how—to carry on a good faith debate is increasingly more rare.

There's also the growing anti-intellectual movement and misunderstandings about how science actually works.

Loud drum-beating on a small number of issues has made them so divisive and polarizing they can't even be brought up without risk of extreme, visceral, emotional reactions.

Add to this, too many are apathetic or beaten down for various reasons to even want to try to engage in voting, the absolute bare minimum of our civic responsibility, much less being aware of what's going on in politics, or taking action to bring about change.

So our public discourse is an absolute disaster and here we are as the influence of money increasingly robs "we the people" of our power and livelihood.

And I have been guilty of much of this. And hope to reform my ways.

[dneal]

Definitely yes about critical thinking. Most people probably couldn't name let alone explain five cognitive biases or five logical fallacies.

Online echo chambers haven't helped us understand other viewpoints.

Clearly the tendency—and likely knowledge of how—to carry on a good faith debate is increasingly more rare.

There's also the growing anti-intellectual movement and misunderstandings about how science actually works.

Loud drum-beating on a small number of issues has made them so divisive and polarizing they can't even be brought up without risk of extreme, visceral, emotional reactions.

Add to this, too many are apathetic or beaten down for various reasons to even want to try to engage in voting, the absolute bare minimum of our civic responsibility, much less being aware of what's going on in politics, or taking action to bring about change.

So our public discourse is an absolute disaster and here we are as the influence of money increasingly robs "we the people" of our power and livelihood.

And I have been guilty of much of this. And hope to reform my ways.

The flip side (and maybe the self correction) is the interest in what's now labeled "the intellectual dark web". People are flocking to hear Sam Harris, Jordan Peterson, etc... anything outside the current canon of approved ideas.

[azkid]

Haven't heard of those two in particular. Always good to be open to new ideas and theories and evaluate critically just like the old ones.

A conversation online with someone who didn't believe in gravity or planetary bodies, and my reading of The Demon-Haunted World (Sagan) so far, have influenced my thinking lately.

[dneal]

I'm surprised you haven't heard of Jordan Peterson.

Look up "Rubin Report" on YouTube for some amazing interviews discussing contemporary topics with very bright people.

[EricTheRed]

I'm surprised you haven't heard of Jordan Peterson.

Look up "Rubin Report" on YouTube for some amazing interviews discussing contemporary topics with very bright people.

+1, Jordan Peterson has an amazing intellect and backs up his ideas with facts rather than emotion. He is also courageous and loves to debate ideas and policy with the emotion driven, propaganda spewing, name calling, racist Left in open public forums. He has easily won every debate I have seen him engage in and there are many online. To me he is a modern Socrates.

[adhoc]

I would also say that americans are in general much more passionate about politics, and passion usually results in less rational statements. Over here, the only thing people can come together on is that f politicians. I don’t think I’ve ever met a person passionate about one politician specifically.

The turn out usually reflects that. For our last government election less than 30% showed up to vote, majority of which were pensioners I believe.

Not that it matters anyway. Government is now governed by political parties people didn’t vote for anyway. We have 7 leftist political parties, one right, and one batshit insane nationalistic one (that usually gets a handful of votes only). The only right wing party was voted the most, but the 7 lefty parties agreed to block them from forming a majority, so they couldn’t form one. Thus, the 7 parties created a majority with their 3-5% of votes each. Needless to say, the government is a shitshow, because how could anyone expect 7 groups of people with different wants would ever be able to come together on anything.

I’ll say I was happy that Trump was elected. Not because I care for him at all, but because he is a proof democracy is well alive in USA. Everyone and their dog said Hillary will win, she had full support of every media group known to man, and still lost. You guys don’t even know how great it is that who will win the election is not a given!

Sincerely, from someone who was born in a country where presidents have won with more than 100% of votes before.

[calamus]

I think that one reason people in the US tend to be "all-in" on one side or another of the spectrum is that the political climate here has become so polarized. I voted for Trump, and I like much of what he's done, but I still cringe almost every other time he opens his mouth. But since there is so much hostility against him, particularly from the left, I generally find myself defending him when a discussion turns political. I will agree with a reasoned objection to specific points if the person I'm talking with is reasonable, but there is an enormous amount of unreasoned hatred and demonization that colors most of the opposition to Trump. Trump supporters and conservatives (and they're not always the same camp) generally regard Hillary Clinton as evil, on the other hand, but I believe that their objections tend to be based more on objective reality than the media-manufactured anti-Trump hysteria is. Much of the latter is ridiculous -- people hate him "because he's a nazi and it's racist to expect people to show identification in order to vote or to have secure borders" according to the prevalent narrative, which is absurd. But Clinton really did look the other way and refuse support at Benghazi, and the Clintons are unquestionably corrupt. Also, a staggeringly large number of their political opponents have suddenly showed up dead under mysterious circumstances, as have an appallingly large number of journalists who've investigated those deaths.

During the last election, when people asked me how I could possibly vote for Trump, what I told them was that it looked like it was a choice between a sociopath and a psychopath, and with a choice like that, the more prudent course would be to vote for the sociopath.

[calamus]

Also, right now the left is pushing an agenda that most of those who disagree with them believe will destroy whatever freedom is left in this country, and will lead to economic disaster as well. So there is push-back, and polarization. Also, during the Obama years, the race card was repeatedly played, and racial division deliberately whipped up to a fever pitch for political reasons, also contributing greatly to the polarization.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I think that one reason people in the US tend to be "all-in" on one side or another of the spectrum is that the political climate here has become so polarized. I voted for Trump, and I like much of what he's done, but I still cringe almost every other time he opens his mouth. But since there is so much hostility against him, particularly from the left, I generally find myself defending him when a discussion turns political. I will agree with a reasoned objection to specific points if the person I'm talking with is reasonable, but there is an enormous amount of unreasoned hatred and demonization that colors most of the opposition to Trump. Trump supporters and conservatives (and they're not always the same camp) generally regard Hillary Clinton as evil, on the other hand, but I believe that their objections tend to be based more on objective reality than the media-manufactured anti-Trump hysteria is. Much of the latter is ridiculous -- people hate him "because he's a nazi and it's racist to expect people to show identification in order to vote or to have secure borders" according to the prevalent narrative, which is absurd. But Clinton really did look the other way and refuse support at Benghazi, and the Clintons are unquestionably corrupt. Also, a staggeringly large number of their political opponents have suddenly showed up dead under mysterious circumstances, as have an appallingly large number of journalists who've investigated those deaths.

During the last election, when people asked me how I could possibly vote for Trump, what I told them was that it looked like it was a choice between a sociopath and a psychopath, and with a choice like that, the more prudent course would be to vote for the sociopath.


There is so much that Trump fails* at, from fundamental behaviour through to complex strategies, that there is no real need for additional "unreasoned hatred" against him. And no doubt he is just as corrupt as the next politician, probably more so given his business track record. It wouldn't not surprise me if people generally voted for him on the grounds of perceived personal gain. Trump promised much there and, now that tax season is upon the US (to take one example), supporters are finding the promises to be hollow.

He is also a science denier. That fact alone should have excluded him from office.


Trump is the living embodiment of the Dunning-Kruger Effect.



*in many ways the biggest issue here is that he fails utterly at being a decent human being, in any facet. I've not seen or heard of him doing anything that wasn't totally self-serving.

[mhosea]

Trump promised much there and, now that tax season is upon the US (to take one example), supporters are finding the promises to be hollow.


Most people have no clue how to figure out whether their taxes went down or not. There are two confusing factors. One is if you make more money, you tend to pay more taxes even when your tax rate is lower. The second is if you have less withheld, you tend to have a lower refund or owe more. Neither is evidence that your taxes didn't go down. In fact one of the things that went along with the new tax law was a relatively aggressive reduction in withholding rates. People should have expected lower refunds (in fact getting a refund at all is bad financial management--should have adjusted your w4 to avoid it) because of that. The sort of people who could possibly not see their taxes reduced itemize deductions and found that they were limited this year by the caps on mortgage interest and state and local income taxes. While not being able to itemize as much is going to be very common, what's not going to be common is the same person not coming out better with the standard deduction combined with the lower tax rates than they would have under the old tax law. That's typically going to happen in states with very high state income tax rates and very high property values or tax rates.

My net tax rate went down a fraction of a percentage point, and my taxes were simpler than they have been in years. I also owe a lot of money come April 15 because of under-withholding. I just happen to be smart enough to know what that does and doesn't mean. So, I'm a fan of the taxes as they are this year. My concern is that the tax rate reductions aren't permanent, and if they return to the old rates with the other aspects of the law as it is now, my taxes actually will go up then. I'm sure people across town with $1.5M houses and big mortgages are already paying more this year, but I doubt they're the sort of people you had in mind. They hated Trump to begin with.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I was just going by what the economists in the US are saying. Hearing a lot about people having less refunds or even owing money to the IRS, hearing nothing suggesting anyone is happy with the state of their taxes. Anyway, taxes aside, Trump is an ass.

And, as Mencken apparently puts it sometime in the early 20th Century:

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."

[mhosea]

I was just going by what the economists in the US are saying. Hearing a lot about people having less refunds or even owing money to the IRS, hearing nothing suggesting anyone is happy with the state of their taxes. Anyway, taxes aside, Trump is an ass.


To be sure I've heard from some folks whose taxes went up. I do live in Taxachusetts. But thinking you paid more taxes solely because your refund is smaller is plain ignorant, and that seems to be the lion's share of the complaints. I think they screwed up the withholding rates, but that just affects the timing of when you pay taxes. It doesn't affect your actual tax burden.

Don't know what "the economists in the US" are saying. AFAIK, all the indicators are good. Lots of worries about not reaching a deal with China, but the stock market reaction late last year felt engineered to me--great opportunity for the big guns to fleece the common man who sells too late. I can never get in on the ground floor in something like that, so I don't try, but I could front-load my 401K contributions early in the year while the market was still oversold. My take home pay in January was pathetic.

Why is anyone willing to quote Mencken? Wasn't he arguing against democracy itself? The other thing the common man will do is vote in corrupt leaders. What's the solution? Bolshevism? Monarchy? The US government was constructed to deal with the inherent problems of representative democracy by building in a system of checks and balances. It's why Trump finds his administration in court so much. For all the vitriol against Trump, I never hear a well-formed rational argument explaining why things are so bad now. Sure, there's stuff not to like, and lots of sore feelings, but I look around and see the country thriving. GDP growth is good, non-farm payrolls good, unemployment good. It's like we have too much success and somehow must find excuses to reject it.

[adhoc]

+1, Jordan Peterson has an amazing intellect and backs up his ideas with facts rather than emotion

Yeah, that's the same guy that told us we are the first country that was behind iron curtain that he's been to on his visit. I guess his intellect is on par with Jeremy Hunt, who told us we were a soviet union vassal state just now.

[mhosea]

I guess his intellect is on par with Jeremy Hunt, who told us we were a soviet union vassal state just now.

I like Peterson, and I think he's insightful and thoughtful on a level that really would be a mistake to toss out over a gaffe like that. Peterson is a psychologist, not a politician. Perhaps you had a right to expect him to research the geopolitical history of the region prior to his visit, but it's not really what Peterson was about or there for. For Peterson it really would have been a highly personal gaffe. He would have found it interesting on a personal level to visit a state that was actually under the Soviet thumb. Soljenitzen made a big impression on Peterson. Did they set him straight when he said it or just bitch about it afterwards? Peterson is the kind of guy who really would have appreciated a real-time correction.

[adhoc]

Nah, nobody even bitched afterwards really. Just my personal remark. Noone (Slovenian) bitched about Hunt either, even though he was flat out insulting.

I think Peterson is alright.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

It's relevant everywhere, but we can't discuss 'everywhere' in a single thread. This one is for 'Murica! :)

[TSherbs]

It's relevant everywhere, but we can't discuss 'everywhere' in a single thread. This one is for 'Murica! :)I was thinking that it is just typical self-absorbed 'Murica....

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

[TSherbs]

In an effort to make American politics better, it would be good for this guy not to win his re-election effort in Montana. But, the results are not mine to pick:

https://www.businessinsider.com/ryan-zinke-ethics-report-inspector-general-2022-2?utm_source=reddit.com

[Cookedj]

In an effort to make American politics better, it would be good for this guy not to win his re-election effort in Montana. But, the results are not mine to pick:

https://www.businessinsider.com/ryan-zinke-ethics-report-inspector-general-2022-2?utm_source=reddit.com

I agree. I get tired of the people in power getting away with all kinds of crimes - insider trading, violating various federal and state laws, and generally doing whatever the heck they want to. It should be break the law get punished (disbarred, censured, removed from their position, jail etc) but the good old boy (women too) system is protecting them.

[Chuck Naill]

What’s surprising is that there are people who supported Trump while he was asking Georgia to find 11,000 votes. I guess if you think the election wasn’t correct, but otherwise what they’re saying is, “it’s okay with me to cheat the American electorate, and take away their vote”.

[Chip]

I think Peterson is alright.

He's an attention junkie and self-appointed expert on things he knows nothing about. But he has your attention, such as it is.

Leading climate scientists have ridiculed and criticised comments made by controversial Canadian psychologist and author Jordan Peterson during an interview on Joe Rogan’s podcast. During a new four-hour interview on Spotify’s most popular podcast, Peterson – who is not an expert on climate change – claimed that models used to forecast the future state of the climate couldn’t be relied on.

Peterson told Rogan that because the climate was so complex, it couldn’t be accurately modelled. He said: “Another problem that bedevils climate modelling, too, which is that as you stretch out the models across time, the errors increase radically. And so maybe you can predict out a week or three weeks or a month or a year, but the farther out you predict, the more your model is in error. And that’s a huge problem when you’re trying to model over 100 years because the errors compound just like interest.”

Peterson said that if the climate was “about everything” then “your models aren’t right” because they couldn’t include everything.

But climate scientists have described Peterson’s comments as “stunningly ignorant” and said he had fundamentally misunderstood the concept of climate modelling.

Dr Sarah Perkins-Kirkpatrick, a climate scientist at the University of New South Wales Canberra, said Peterson’s description of how climate models work was fundamentally wrong. While weather forecasts do become less accurate the further out they go, this was a different process to climate modelling.

“He seems to think we model the future climate the same way we do the weather. He sounds intelligent, but he’s completely wrong.

“He has no frickin’ idea,” she said.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jan/27/word-salad-of-nonsense-scientists-denounce-jordan-petersons-comments-on-climate-models?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[dneal]

If the lefties are shouting him down and hurling labels and insults (instead of explaining why he’s wrong), he must have cut close to the quick.

Aaaakkk!!! Disinformation!!! Disinformation!!!

He was having a conversation with a comedian about a common topic he admittedly isn’t an expert in, not presenting a paper for an academic journal. He does understand trying to account for a large quantity and wide variety of variables that aren’t clear (cos that’s what psychology is) in statistical models. It’s not a far stretch to realize that millions of years of climate history, shit on a planetary scale, etc… is a also wicked problem with enormous opportunity for error in statistical models. Seems like a reasonable question/objection.

But if the new leftie standard is that only experts can engage in conversation about their particular topics, I can think of a bunch of “discussion” and opinion that needs shut down - starting with The Guardian.

[Chip]

Stop blowing smoke.

He's dead wrong in so many respects that he's either crazy ignorant or being subsidized by fossil fuel interests.

[dneal]

Stop blowing smoke.

I thought that’s what we’re doing here now.

[Chip]

You never inhale?

[dneal]

Well it’s clear you aren’t a comedy writer…

[Chuck Naill]

Was he trying to be?

[Chip]

Here's a joke:

A liberal and a conservative, longtime friends, walk into a bar.

After a few drinks the conversation turns to politics.

"People think us conservatives are a bunch of uptight bigots. But what's more exciting than a free market? I have a great life, a gorgeous wife, and I'm really good in the sack.'

"Yeah, that's what your Mom said."

[dneal]

Here's a joke:

A liberal and a conservative, longtime friends, walk into a bar.

After a few drinks the conversation turns to politics.

"People think us conservatives are a bunch of uptight bigots. But what's more exciting than a free market? I have a great life, a gorgeous wife, and I'm really good in the sack.'

"Yeah, that's what your Mom said."

At least the irony is funny.

[TSherbs]

How's that new Trump app doing? Spreading any truthiness yet?

[Chuck Naill]

I’m glad Trumps not in office and dealing with the Ukrainian conflict

[dneal]

Curiously, Putin's hegemonic actions occurred pre and post Trump - but not during.

[Chuck Naill]

Wasn't required during.

[dneal]

Then why were hegemonic actions "required" before and after Trump's term, but not during?

Surely you're not going to continue the "Russian collusion" conspiracy theories.

[Chuck Naill]

Then why were hegemonic actions "required" before and after Trump's term, but not during?

Surely you're not going to continue the "Russian collusion" conspiracy theories.

No, I am thinking of Trump's praise then and now of Putin. Trump wants what Putin has. This way he can build wealth for himself and his family with impunity.

[dneal]

Ok, but you still avoided the question: why were hegemonic actions "required" before and after Trump's term, but not during?

Trump's praise, Trump wanting what Putin has, Trump wanting to build wealth, etc... are supposed Trump motivations, not Putin motivations.

[Chuck Naill]

Please don’t use the word “avoided”.

[dneal]

Why? Did the NYT add that to their list of verboten words?

The fact that you avoided the question of avoiding the question by questioning the use of "avoided" did make me chuckle.

[Chuck Naill]

Maybe change you name to "avoid". It appears that's all you can post. LOL@@@

[dneal]

I wouldn’t have to use that word if you didn’t exhibit that behavior, like you continue to do in that last post. If anyone should change their name for that reason, it would be you. ROFL!!!

[Chuck Naill]

I wouldn’t have to use that word if you didn’t exhibit that behavior, like you continue to do in that last post. If anyone should change their name for that reason, it would be you. ROFL!!!

You appear to be running on empty. Have you the intelligence to add to the conversation? While I have never been impressed, perhaps I should give you a chance.

Was your primary school experience beneficial?

[dneal]

Hard to add to a conversation that you keep avoiding!!! LOL!!!

[Chuck Naill]

Hard to add to a conversation that you keep avoiding!!! LOL!!!

Hard to avoid something that never did exit, dude.....LOOL@!!

[dneal]

Chuck’s typos correspond to his triggered level. LMAO!!!

[Chip]

What do you call it when two desperados face off and empty their pistols at close range while never scoring a hit?

https://i.imgur.com/IGrGw7K.jpg

[TSherbs]

What do you call it when two desperados face off and empty their pistols at close range while never scoring a hit?

https://i.imgur.com/IGrGw7K.jpg

high noon at the Geeks Corral

[Chuck Naill]

Scoring a hit was never the point, chip. 😂😂

[dneal]

What do you call it when two desperados face off and empty their pistols at close range while never scoring a hit?

https://i.imgur.com/IGrGw7K.jpg

No Chip, it's just one desperado (Chuck) and me holding up a mirror to him.

FFS, he posted this in The Lounge. Seriously Chuck?


Who is Noodlers? LOL!!


But I don't expect you to understand, Chip. It doesn't dawn on you that I do it to you too.

[Chuck Naill]

Ever get a text from Trump? Be sure to uncheck the box making it a reoccurring monthly contribution. And if you really think you are the one millionth contributor, think again.

[dneal]

Ever get a text from Trump? Be sure to uncheck the box making it a reoccurring monthly contribution. And if you really think you are the one millionth contributor, think again.

Thanks for sharing your personal experience!!! LOL!!!

[Chuck Naill]

Ever get a text from Trump? Be sure to uncheck the box making it a reoccurring monthly contribution. And if you really think you are the one millionth contributor, think again.

Thanks for sharing your personal experience!!! LOL!!!

It was a journalist's experience. LOL!! Sorry to disappoint.

[TSherbs]

I guess America isn't gonna get so great via Trump's platform. Or at least no time soon:

Reuters.com: Exclusive: Two key tech execs quit Truth Social after troubled app launch.

https://www.reuters.com/technology/exclusive-two-key-tech-execs-quit-truth-social-after-troubled-app-launch-2022-04-04/

[Chuck Naill]

The more I read the more I am coming to see that what Trump did had been being done since the founding. Different players, but the same idea that some need to be ruled by white men who are affluent and whose success came because they had money/land, were benefitted by government legislation, and were individuals who claimed the myth of being self made and in no need of government. This theme has played out over and over. The whine, "I want my country back" has never been answered. I am not sure those who say it even know what they want. More likely, the are just unhappy with how things turned out for them. This led them to support a mythological figure, "Trump the successful business man" that Putin and a TV program created. Trump appears to some as another myth, the cowboy. A rugged individualist who made his mark on the Western landscape. The woman served to bear children, make a home, or be a prostitute. When you consider Trump, he fits the mold doesn't he?

Along with this mythology, and consistent with history, the Chinese, Mexican, and African American, along with the woman were excluded as were poor whites without land who worked for the white oligarchs. When African Americans were successful, they were destroyed as in Tulsa, or lynched.

For some saying these things cause them to think those that say such are "woke". So, each of us have to decide to be either woke or believe the reinventions of history. Those that are disgruntled will continue to destroy democracy. They will not be happy until they get what they want, and then they will not like what they get.

"And I look at the current situation with confidence. Ultimately, people want to stand out and fit in. They want to feel their lives have dignity, that they are respected for who they are. They also want to feel membership in moral communities. Right now, many people feel disrespected by the West. They are casting their lot with authoritarian leaders who speak to their resentments and their national pride. But those leaders don’t actually recognize them. For those authoritarians — from Trump to Putin — their followers are just instruments in their own search for self-aggrandizement.

At the end of the day, only democracy and liberalism are based on respect for the dignity of each person. At the end of the day, only these systems and our worldviews offer the highest fulfillment for the drives and desires I’ve tried to describe here.

I’ve lost confidence in our ability to predict where history is headed and in the idea that as nations “modernize” they develop along some predictable line. I guess it’s time to open our minds up to the possibility that the future may be very different from anything we expected.

The Chinese seem very confident that our coalition against Putin will fall apart. Western consumers won’t be able to tolerate the economic sacrifice. Our alliances will fragment. The Chinese also seem convinced that they will bury our decadent systems before too long. These are not possibilities that can be dismissed out of hand.

But I have faith in the ideas and the moral systems that we have inherited. What we call “the West” is not an ethnic designation or an elitist country club. The heroes of Ukraine are showing that at its best, it is a moral accomplishment, and unlike its rivals, it aspires to extend dignity, human rights and self-determination to all. That’s worth reforming and working on and defending and sharing in the decades ahead."
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/08/opinion/globalization-global-culture-war.html

[Chuck Naill]

The Christian Fundamentalists opposed gender equality referring to the Bible as how the family and females should live. Men were to rule, and some men rule over all.

[TSherbs]

Guess Trump won't be making the USA great again via Twitter money:

POLITICO: Judge tosses Trump suit against Twitter - POLITICO.

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/05/06/judge-tosses-trump-suit-against-twitter-00030825

[TSherbs]

Oops, you lost again:

Axios: Judge dismisses Trump lawsuit against New York AG Letitia James.

https://www.axios.com/2022/05/27/judge-dismisses-trump-lawsuit-new-york-ag

[TSherbs]

Here's the orange bigot turning his vile attention on transgender students. The article claims that Trump knows exactly what he is doing and is consciously tweaking his derision of marginalized students from event to event. Noteworthy: these mocking comments toward trans students get some of the biggest laughs from the crowd. The Bigot-in-Chief among his cohort.

POLITICO Playbook: Trump's new obsession.

https://www.politico.com/newsletters/playbook/2022/05/29/trumps-new-obsession-00035857

Make America "great" again, Donnie!

[Chuck Naill]

He said he’s the only one that doesn’t mind being politically incorrect.

All others are moral and have character. Or, are smart enough to keep their nonsense to themselves.

[TSherbs]

Another group (white supremacist) hoping to make America great again :.

https://apnews.com/article/coeur-dalene-idaho-government-and-politics-arrests-01fd15f6d3b3bcab9404106c85f673c3

[Chuck Naill]

Se that at 6 am today

[TSherbs]

Boston had the "pleasure" of a visit from the Patriot Front this holiday weekend.

Fine group of (white, racist, anti-semitic) men.

If you don't know them, here is a lengthy description of their history, positions, and activities, from the ADL: https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/patriot-front

Just some well-informed, open-minded white young men trying to make America great again!

[Chuck Naill]

Did they ride in a U Haul?

[Chuck Naill]

Biden bestows the Presidental Medal of Freedom on
"and Khizr Khan, the Gold Star father of a soldier killed in Iraq whose criticism of Donald J. Trump during the 2016 presidential campaign made him a hero of Democrats."

Amen!!

And Trump was an ass toward this man and his family. It should have given other Americans a reason not to vote for him.

[TSherbs]

In an effort to make America better, a sixth man was exonerated today out of the sweep of possible black male "rapists" around the Central Park 5 case.

This case was when I first saw the divisive, lying, racist side of Donald Trump. He couldn't keep himself away from cameras, so it was all out in the open for us to see.

NPR: A 6th teenager charged in the 1989 Central Park jogger case is exonerated.

https://www.npr.org/2022/07/26/1113614422/a-6th-teenager-charged-in-the-1989-central-park-jogger-case-is-exonerated

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

[Chuck Naill]

In an effort to make America better, a sixth man was exonerated today out of the sweep of possible black male "rapists" around the Central Park 5 case.

This case was when I first saw the divisive, lying, racist side of Donald Trump. He couldn't keep himself away from cameras, so it was all out in the open for us to see.

NPR: A 6th teenager charged in the 1989 Central Park jogger case is exonerated.

https://www.npr.org/2022/07/26/1113614422/a-6th-teenager-charged-in-the-1989-central-park-jogger-case-is-exonerated

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

He has a long history. Anyone who read his niece's book will understand. Nothing has changed.

[TSherbs]

Ouch. In Milley's resignation (that didn't happen) letter. He basically calls Trump a racist fascist:

Yahoo News: Gen. Milley drafted scathing letter of resignation to Trump after Lafayette Square.

https://news.yahoo.com/milley-resignation-letter-to-trump-lafayette-square-154956873.html

[Chuck Naill]

What Milley is so much more.....

[TSherbs]

"Student loan forgiveness" for people under an an income cap is "unfair."

What a bunch of whiners. Can't you do better than that? The only problem is that the cap should have been lower (even more targeted toward the lower incomes). But that would be even more "unfair," no?

The GOP better get its shit together and stop letting these losers take up the sound bite space. They're gonna blow their momentum (already turning) going into the midterms.

[TSherbs]

Another of America's "greats" showing off her intelligence and sense of history:

Business Insider: Marjorie Taylor Greene compared Joe Biden to Hitler, Israel makes rare criticism.

https://www.businessinsider.com/mtg-compared-joe-biden-to-hitler-israel-makes-rare-criticism-2022-9

This woman's ego LOVES attention.

[Chip]

How about bailouts for banks? Subsidies for fossil fuel mining and drilling? Tax breaks for the richest and greediest?

I guess it depends on your point of view (or who's jerking your leash.)

[TSherbs]

Making America Great: money-laundering, conspiracy, and fraud. Another of the great con-men: Steve Bannon

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/steve-bannon-surrender-thursday-face-new-york-indictment-2022-09-08/

[Chuck Naill]

Making America Great: money-laundering, conspiracy, and fraud. Another of the great con-men: Steve Bannon

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/steve-bannon-surrender-thursday-face-new-york-indictment-2022-09-08/

Would you agree that we long to see justice, finally occur?

These folks are proud in their lawlessness.

[Lloyd]

If you ask me, Steve Bannon needs to spend more time laundering his clothes and less time laundering money.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[TSherbs]

The prosectutor's office still working on cleaning up the Trump swamp: Trump swump (https://apnews.com/article/business-new-york-manhattan-donald-trump-government-and-politics-fbe1d6e5300fa9a042fbe0a7abfff9e4)

[dneal]

This seems to fit well here.


There’s a sort of test for commitment to reasoned debate. Does the person make a good faith effort to characterize opposing viewpoints accurately and, in whatever aspects are relevant to the topic at hand, completely? Does the person work cooperatively with their opponent to establish the clearest possible expression of their opponent’s position, and then proceed to argue against that? If not, then they’re not committed to reasoned debate, for no honest person interested in applying reason to find truths would see any point to arguing against a strawman, nor would they stoop to the purely political tactic of appealing to emotion rather than reason.

[Chuck Naill]

Try it sometime, D!

[kazoolaw]

Try it sometime, D!

Kind of a sad post, from the (grade)school of "I know you are but what am I."

[Chuck Naill]

Try it sometime, D!

Kind of a sad post, from the (grade)school of "I know you are but what am I."

It's been a hard week for you, hasn't it?

[kazoolaw]

Try it sometime, D!

Kind of a sad post, from the (grade)school of "I know you are but what am I."

It's been a hard week for you, hasn't it?

Sadder and sadder from the man whose self-awareness is below zero.

[TSherbs]

Ah, the Trump cause keeps getting a "kick in the teeth" (how Trump's lawyer described it). This is the ruling from the judge in the lawsuit against HRC et al tht he dismissed and has just fined the lawyers and charged them for attorney fees for the defendents in this willfully bogus suit:

news article on ruling (https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/10/politics/trump-dolan-lawsuit-sanctions/index.html)

Excerpt from the article containing material from the ruling:

“The pleadings in this case contained factual allegations that were either knowingly false or made in reckless disregard for the truth,” Middlebrooks wrote.

“Not just initiated by a shotgun pleading, this was a shotgun lawsuit. Thirty-one individuals and organizations were summoned to court, forced to hire lawyers to defend against frivolous claims,” the judge wrote. “The only common thread against them was Mr. Trump’s animus.”

Middlebrooks added: “Plaintiff deliberately misrepresented public documents by selectively using some portions while omitting other information including findings and conclusions that contradicted his narrative. … It was too frequent to be accidental. Every claim was frivolous, most barred by settled, well-established existing law. These were political grievances masquerading as legal claims.”

“This cannot be attributed to incompetent lawyering,” he wrote. “It was a deliberate use of the judicial system to pursue a political agenda.”

[TSherbs]

If you ask me, Steve Bannon needs to spend more time laundering his clothes and less time laundering money.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

my lord

funniest thing I have read in a while, Lloyd (not sure how I missed it before)

[TSherbs]

Some insights here, I think:


Trump’s Future Isn’t Up to Fox News
Whatever the conservative grass roots decide, the establishment will be a step or two behind, desperately trying to catch up with the people it claims to lead.

Mark Peterson / Redux

November 11, 2022, 11:37 AM ET

These conservative luminaries are among the many credentialed members of the right who have criticized former President Donald Trump in the aftermath of the Republican Party’s historically underwhelming performance in the midterm elections. They are right to do so: Voters rejected not only many of Trump’s handpicked candidates but also his attacks on democracy and claims about stolen elections. If there was a red wave in the offing, Trump acted as a seawall defending a blue coast.

“These protests aren’t just a dollar short and a few years late. They’re also unlikely to amount to much. The traditional conservative establishment didn’t make Trump, and it can’t break him. If his political career is over, it will be because the voters who brought him to power decide to end it.” Lowry, the editor in chief of National Review, proclaimed in a column for _Politico_.

Murdoch’s media empire has also laid blame at Trump’s feet, most prominently with a New York Post cover on Thursday depicting the former president as “TRUMPTY DUMPTY and adding, “Don (who couldn’t build a wall) had a great fall—can all the GOP’s men put the party back together again?” Party officials across the country are pointing fingers at Trump, including in Michigan, where Democrats won up and down the ballot over Trump-backed candidates.

“We lost in ’18. We lost in ’20. We lost in ’21 in Georgia. And now in ’22, we’re going to net-lose governorships, we’re not going to pick up the number of seats in the House that we thought, and we may not win the Senate despite a president who has a 40 percent job approval,” said Chris Christie, the former New Jersey governor who cozied up to Trump but became an apostate (after Trump buried a dagger in his back). “There’s only one person to blame for that, and that’s Donald Trump.”

Trump has responded with a series of typically petulant social-media posts, but even former Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, who has been careful to remain devoted to Trump publicly, had a snappy reply on Twitter: “Conservatives are elected when we deliver. Not when we just rail on social media. That’s how we can win. We fight for families and a strong America.”

The temptation to make fun of many of these late arrivals is strong, and I will not resist it. Too many Republicans were willing to stand by Trump when he interfered with the Justice Department, supplicated himself to Vladimir Putin, extorted Ukraine, and tried to steal the 2020 election. Many of them didn’t like Trump personally but were willing to hold their noses for the expected political payout. But now that they’ve recognized (as many other people did long ago) that Trump is also an electoral loser, they’ve had enough.

This stand takes courage—the courage to know you’ll be rightfully mocked. But anyone worried about the danger a Trump return would pose should welcome allies, however hypocritical or tardy. The bigger problem is that the backlash to Trump comes too late to make much difference.

One theory about the Republican Party and Trump is that if enough of its movers and shakers had turned on him simultaneously, they could have cast him out. But going back to the 2016 GOP primary, members of the establishment never liked or wanted him. They worried he couldn’t win, and they worried he didn’t agree with their core beliefs on issues such as trade and foreign policy. The problem was that voters did like Trump—although only a plurality in the primary—and didn’t like his rivals. One reason the establishment couldn’t effectively rally around one of his opponents is that Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, Scott Walker, and the rest all had weaknesses that a unified media front couldn’t erase.

They tried, though. The high-water mark was the January 2016 “Against Trump” issue of National Review, the flagship movement magazine, which gathered a host of writers from across the right to try to stall the inevitable. It didn’t work. (Some of the contributors remained Never Trumpers, others embraced him, and a third group settled on anti-anti-Trumpism as a compromise.)

The collective-action theory got another test in October 2016, when The Washington Post published a recording of Trump boasting about sexually assaulting women. Many Republicans and conservative pundits abandoned him, but once it became clear that there was no alternative and that GOP voters were still on board, many of them quietly slunk back too.

This pattern has held over and over. After the white-supremacist violence in Charlottesville, Virginia, in 2017; after the 2018 Helsinki summit; after the attempted extortion of Ukraine; after Trump lost the 2020 election; and then again after the January 6 insurrection, swaths of conservatives prepared to make a dramatic break and then either changed their mind or held back when they realized that voters were still with Trump. After the election loss, Murdoch’s properties briefly soured on Trump, but when their competitors started to gain market share, Fox and friends had second thoughts.

Perhaps after January 6, a concerted establishment push really could have finished Trump off. The public was appalled; Trump was weak; many Republicans in Congress were ready to act. A unified conservative-media front might have provided Senate Republicans the bulwark they needed to vote to convict Trump in an impeachment trial and prevent him from running again. Instead, the moment passed and many of the players blinked, reopening their eyes to a Trump still in control of the party. The 2022 midterms show how that damaged not only democracy, but also the GOP’s prospects.

Stopping Trump is arguably more difficult now. Unlike in January 2021, he has no formal position from which to be removed, and no mechanism exists to bar him from office. Donors have abandoned him, but he doesn’t need them to win.

None of this means Trump is unstoppable in a Republican primary for president in 2024. (He appears to be preparing to announce his campaign on Tuesday evening at Mar-a-Lago, evidently hoping to quash Florida Governor Ron DeSantis’s momentum before it gets out of hand.) But if Trump fizzles out, it will be because Republican voters decide he’s done. Tentative signs exist that some of them are tired of his antics, worry he simply can’t win, or are attracted to the prospect of a younger, fresher face like DeSantis. The grass roots made Trump, and only they can break him. Whatever they decide, the establishment will be a step or two behind, desperately trying to catch up with the people it claims to lead.

[TSherbs]

To that "losing" list one might add 60 lawsuits re the 2020 election....

[Chuck Naill]

Gen Z voters and millions of Americans choose Democracy over Autocracy on Tuesday. Hopefully Trump and DeSantis will destroy each others appeal and a true conservative leader will emerge that understands the will of the people over the will of a party. Someone to unit rather than separate. One that will work with the moderates on both sides. AOC has been as destructive and Trump. David Brook's op-ed this weekend speaks to harm of the far ends of the political spectrum.

I am still hopeful a Cheney, Kitzinger, and or Kasich can regain attention.

[dneal]

NBC:Jan. 6 committee staffers told preliminary plan for final report would focus largely on Trump, not on law enforcement failures, sources say (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/jan-6-committee-staffers-told-preliminary-plan-final-report-focus-larg-rcna56802)


The House resolution that created the committee said its mission included examining “the preparedness and response” of Capitol Police and other law enforcement agencies.

Staff members of the Jan. 6 committee were informed last week that the committee’s final report would focus largely on former President Donald Trump and much less on findings about failures by the FBI and other law enforcement agencies in the lead up to the attack, three sources familiar with the committee’s work told NBC News.

[Chuck Naill]

Americans have rallied to show that it is indeed a great nation. Sure there can be improvements. However, Trump tried to fix something that wasn't broke and all he did was create white grievances.

If anyone should be grieved, it is Hershal Walker. He made the University of Georgia a football powerhouse and never got a degree. The system used his talents and gave nothing back.

[TSherbs]

Gen Z voters and millions of Americans choose Democracy over Autocracy on Tuesday. Hopefully Trump and DeSantis will destroy each others appeal and a true conservative leader will emerge that understands the will of the people over the will of a party. ....
I am still hopeful a Cheney, Kitzinger, and or Kasich can regain attention.

I think that the GOP is still too polarized to accept any of these Trumpian apostates. But we'll see. Hopefully, they won't get their shit together and even a weak Dem will win (I'm not sure the Dems have their doodoo together either).

[Chuck Naill]

Gen Z voters and millions of Americans choose Democracy over Autocracy on Tuesday. Hopefully Trump and DeSantis will destroy each others appeal and a true conservative leader will emerge that understands the will of the people over the will of a party. ....
I am still hopeful a Cheney, Kitzinger, and or Kasich can regain attention.

I think that the GOP is still too polarized to accept any of these Trumpian apostates. But we'll see. Hopefully, they won't get their shit together and even a weak Dem will win (I'm not sure the Dems have their doodoo together either).

Some pundits having been speaking about moderates. It is probably where most of us live. I was surprized Brooks said what he said about social media and it's stars like AOC. Woke is important, but like other things can go so far as to lose support.

[Chuck Naill]

From Ms. Dowd,
"Republicans are blaming Donald Trump for anointing wacky candidates and then using campaign rallies to promote his upcoming presidential announcement. Republican lawmakers privately say those self-indulgent rallies cost them Senate and House seats because many normal Republicans and independents have had their fill of Trump and his crazy train.

The third time should be the charm. Since winning in 2016, Trump helped Republicans lose the House in 2018 and lose the White House and the Senate after the 2020 elections. Now he seems to have rescued Democrats from the traditional midterm shellacking — Republicans are barely within reach of a House majority and are watching their chance of controlling the Senate slip away. Trump has been poison for his party.

Polls showed that even many people unhappy with Joe Biden voted Democratic, a sign that Trump fatigue has finally set in. It’s so bad, the Murdoch empire has turned on its former fair-haired boy."

[TSherbs]

...Woke is important, but like other things can go so far as to lose support.

Yes, like "defund the police." Bad mantra, bad idea, noble purpose (end state-sponsored violence against the poor, the darker-skinned, the and mentally handicapped). Fortunately, Biden threw cold water on that language (even the terminology was misunderstood and misrepresented by some).

[TSherbs]

From Ms. Dowd,
"Republicans are blaming Donald Trump for anointing wacky candidates and then using campaign rallies to promote his upcoming presidential announcement. Republican lawmakers privately say those self-indulgent rallies cost them Senate and House seats because many normal Republicans and independents have had their fill of Trump and his crazy train.

I had not thought of this, but it is a fair point. Of course, he can't help but turn rallies into his own self-praise and hunger for accolades (even though he may be the only one speaking them). People would stream out of those gatherings 10 minutes into his crazy stopthestealstuff. Don't blame them.

[TSherbs]

I remember in 2017 when he hit the circuit and launched his next campaign committee, funding, and speaking apparatus as early as , maybe, January (February?). I was stunned how early he started talking about himself to "large" crowds, winging it for their adulation. Gross.

[Chuck Naill]

From Ms. Dowd,
"Republicans are blaming Donald Trump for anointing wacky candidates and then using campaign rallies to promote his upcoming presidential announcement. Republican lawmakers privately say those self-indulgent rallies cost them Senate and House seats because many normal Republicans and independents have had their fill of Trump and his crazy train.

I had not thought of this, but it is a fair point. Of course, he can't help but turn rallies into his own self-praise and hunger for accolades (even though he may be the only one speaking them). People would stream out of those gatherings 10 minutes into his crazy stopthestealstuff. Don't blame them.

I suspect going to a Trump rally is like going to live wresting. Everyone knows its rigged and not true wrestling, but it is entertaining.

[Chuck Naill]

...Woke is important, but like other things can go so far as to lose support.

Yes, like "defund the police." Bad mantra, bad idea, noble purpose (end state-sponsored violence against the poor, the darker-skinned, the and mentally handicapped). Fortunately, Biden threw cold water on that language (even the terminology was misunderstood and misrepresented by some).

I am reading the DuBois biography of John Brown. When he (Brown) and Fredrick Douglass interacted, Douglass knew his plan was flawed, that black men would be treated much for severely for their part than white men. Douglass opted out. What is inspirational is that DuBois, an African American, using primary sources to praise the efforts of a white man who became a practical means of abolition. A quote I love by Brown, "trust God and keep your powder dry".

There are times when the only thing we can do is speak and attempt to be relevant.

Back to Ms. Dowd,
"One of the bright spots of the election is that a lot of people seemed to turn their back on crazy. Let’s hope that Republicans will get the message and move on from the King of Crazy before he gets another shot at destroying democracy."

[dneal]

One wonders if John Brown was an insurrectionist, and how that informs history and current politics.

[Chuck Naill]

One wonders if John Brown was an insurrectionist, and how that informs history and current politics.

Is that code for "I wonder"? Since the 1800's were a time when using humans for free labor was finally being questioned, I doubt Brown would have fit into the vernacular of an insurrectionist in the North, but most likely would have been considered differently in the South.

There are no similarities between Brown and Trump, if that enters into your inquiry. He was self made, self reflective, gentle, serving, and giving. His was a moral war and not one of self-serving. You should consider the book. It isn't an expensive investment.

[TSherbs]

From Ms. Dowd,
"Republicans are blaming Donald Trump for anointing wacky candidates and then using campaign rallies to promote his upcoming presidential announcement. Republican lawmakers privately say those self-indulgent rallies cost them Senate and House seats because many normal Republicans and independents have had their fill of Trump and his crazy train.

I had not thought of this, but it is a fair point. Of course, he can't help but turn rallies into his own self-praise and hunger for accolades (even though he may be the only one speaking them). People would stream out of those gatherings 10 minutes into his crazy stopthestealstuff. Don't blame them.

I suspect going to a Trump rally is like going to live wresting. Everyone knows its rigged and not true wrestling, but it is entertaining.

and then when the crowd sees the same old moves that they've seen for 6+ years, they leave...

[TSherbs]

Back to Ms. Dowd,
"One of the bright spots of the election is that a lot of people seemed to turn their back on crazy. Let’s hope that Republicans will get the message and move on from the King of Crazy before he gets another shot at destroying democracy."

I don't disagree, but I wouldn't mind seeing Trump lose another election. But that would be a big price to pay for a sadistic pleasure (not that he wouldn't have it coming).

[Chuck Naill]

Back to Ms. Dowd,
"One of the bright spots of the election is that a lot of people seemed to turn their back on crazy. Let’s hope that Republicans will get the message and move on from the King of Crazy before he gets another shot at destroying democracy."

I don't disagree, but I wouldn't mind seeing Trump lose another election. But that would be a big price to pay for a sadistic pleasure (not that he wouldn't have it coming).

If I understand, you'd like to see justice? His abuse of power and the human toll from COVID 19 for Americans is what bothers me most.

[TSherbs]

This thread has 70,000+ views. Is some bot viewing it???? It's only 5 pages long (at this point)....

[dneal]

This thread has 70,000+ views. Is some bot viewing it???? It's only 5 pages long (at this point)....

It’s also 5 years old.

[TSherbs]

This thread has 70,000+ views. Is some bot viewing it???? It's only 5 pages long (at this point)....

It’s also 5 years old.

good point

[Chuck Naill]

America appears to have made positive strides since 2017.

[TSherbs]

America appears to have made positive strides since 2017.

Not on gun violence, women's reproductive rights, or education...

Not on life expectancy....

Not on the Clean Water Act or the EPA....

[TSherbs]

Interesting analytics from WaPo on the effect(s) of Trump endorsements on mid term elections. The conclusion isn't good for Trump hopes nationally: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/11/15/data-trump-weighed-down-republican-candidates/

Hope you can access it: it has charts and graphs...

[Chuck Naill]

Trump ain’t dead politically.

[Chuck Naill]

I’m going to have the popcorn ready for Trump and DeSantis each trying to suck the air out of the room …..l! This should be entertaining!!

[TSherbs]

This helped Desantis in the election, but he has suffered a setback now: the "anti-woke education" law is rebuffed in court:
PBS NewsHour: Judge blocks Ron DeSantis law barring ‘woke’ education.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/judge-blocks-ron-desantis-law-barring-woke-education

@dneal take note: the opinion quotes Orwell

[TSherbs]

Side note: Judy Woodruff is stepping down as Newshour anchor. I like the two replacements, especially Nawaz.

[dneal]

This helped Desantis in the election, but he has suffered a setback now: the "anti-woke education" law is rebuffed in court:
PBS NewsHour: Judge blocks Ron DeSantis law barring ‘woke’ education.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/judge-blocks-ron-desantis-law-barring-woke-education

@dneal take note: the opinion quotes Orwell

Orwell would probably appreciate the irony in Judge Walker’s ruling.

-edit-

Here is the text of the legislation (https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022/7/BillText/er/PDF). I’m not sure I see the problem, and the characterization in the article doesn’t seem accurate.

-edit 2-

This portion of the PBS piece is accurate.


The law prohibits teaching or business practices that contend members of one ethnic group are inherently racist and should feel guilt for past actions committed by others. It also bars the notion that a person’s status as privileged or oppressed is necessarily determined by their race or gender, or that discrimination is acceptable to achieve diversity.

[TSherbs]

I support the ban on that kind of legislation, and I applaud the failure of similar legislation in Maine. The GOP tried it here, but fell short in votes. It was a straight party line vote in my state legislature: every Rep voted for, every Dem against. This, and abortion, was part of why I voted straight blue in my state offices.

[TSherbs]

I am pleased to see that conservatives (some) are getting openly behind gay marriage and some level of legal abortion. And *some* don't like banning controversial books in schools.

[TSherbs]

About half of my wife's classroom books would not pass the smell test on identity and race and gender (my guess). I could never have taught Malcolm-X (I taught his autobiography exactly because of how it shocks whites out of their/my comfort zone on race). It is a deeply flawed outlook, in more than one way, on America, but it also is a seminal story in our modern history on race relations and narrative making (his story is not entirely "true," as is no autobiography, which we also talk about). I taught that book to mixed-race classes. Yikes, that was uncomfortable at times, also for the students of color.

[dneal]

I support the ban on that kind of legislation, and I applaud the failure of similar legislation in Maine. The GOP tried it here, but fell short in votes. It was a straight party line vote in my state legislature: every Rep voted for, every Dem against. This, and abortion, was part of why I voted straight blue in my state offices.

What do you mean by "that kind of legislation"?

Read lines 66-108. It is anti-discriminatory, and forbids an academic litmus test for employment, grades, or degrees. It says those topics may be discussed if done objectively.

Read lines 360-396. It says history will include discussion of the "African diaspora", and "Students shall develop an understanding of the ramifications of prejudice, racism, and stereotyping on individual freedoms...".

To use your Malcom X example, basically the Florida legislation is saying you can teach his "blue-eyed devil" screed, but you can't make acceptance of it a requirement to employment, awarding of a degree, etc... Instead, it promotes Dr. King's content of character instead of color of skin message.

If you are really interested in Orwell, twisted logic and bizarre rambling; Judge Walker's injunction (https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flnd.443792/gov.uscourts.flnd.443792.44.0.pdf) is entertaining.

[TSherbs]

Toward the end of career I did catch hell (principals office) for teaching Huck Finn. I have taught it for 25 years. Times change, tho. And white kids complained about how harmful the n*** word was for them and the students of color. I had taught there so long that I was not *told* to drop it, I was asked. I only had one year left, I yielded. I'm not particularly proud about it. But the word is used 200+ times in the novel. It is very difficult to stomach. Oh well. Sorry, Samuel!

[TSherbs]

I support the ban on that kind of legislation, and I applaud the failure of similar legislation in Maine. The GOP tried it here, but fell short in votes. It was a straight party line vote in my state legislature: every Rep voted for, every Dem against. This, and abortion, was part of why I voted straight blue in my state offices.

What do you mean by "that kind of legislation"?


Legislation that tries to keep children from working on what are deemed "divisive concepts" in classrooms or even on library shelves (where no one is required to read them). DeSantis refers to it as beating back "wokism in schools." I am 100% in favor of wokism (in principle) in schools, just to be clear.

[dneal]

Not sure what Twain has to do with the Florida law and Judge Walker's ruling.

From the injunction - the facts of the legislation:


In 2022, the Florida Legislature passed the “Individual Freedom Act” (IFA).
The IFA amended the Florida Educational Equity Act (FEEA) to prohibit “training or instruction that espouses, promotes, advances, inculcates, or compels . . . student[s] or employee[s] to believe [eight specified concepts].” § 1000.05(4)(a), Florida Statutes (2022). These eight concepts are as follows:

1. Members of one race, color, national origin, or sex are morally superior to members of another race, color, national origin, or sex.
2. A person, by virtue of his or her race, color, national origin, or sex is inherently racist, sexist, or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously.
3. A person’s moral character or status as either privileged or oppressed is necessarily determined by his or her race, color, national origin, or sex.
4. Members of one race, color, national origin, or sex cannot and should not attempt to treat others without respect to race, color, national origin, or sex.
5. A person, by virtue of his or her race, color, national origin, or sex bears responsibility for, or should be discriminated against or receive adverse treatment because of, actions committed in the past by other members of the same race, color, national origin, or sex.
6. A person, by virtue of his or her race, color, national origin, or sex should be discriminated against or receive adverse treatment to achieve diversity, equity, or inclusion.
7. A person, by virtue of his or her race, color, sex, or national origin, bears personal responsibility for and must feel guilt, anguish, or other forms of psychological distress because of actions, in which the person played no part, committed in the past by other members of the same race, color, national origin, or sex.
8. Such virtues as merit, excellence, hard work, fairness, neutrality, objectivity, and racial colorblindness are racist or sexist, or were created by members of a particular race, color, national origin, or sex to oppress members of another race, color, national origin, or sex.

The IFA also included a so-called “savings clause,”6 which states that the foregoing “may not be construed to prohibit discussion of the concepts listed therein as part of a larger course of training or instruction, provided such training or instruction is given in an objective manner without endorsement of the concepts.” § 1000.05(4)(b), Fla. Stat. (2022). Thus, professors may “discuss” the eight concepts listed above in class, but they must do so “in an objective manner” and “without endorsement of the concepts.”

What part do you disagree with?

[TSherbs]

I once looked at a banned book list during "Banned Books Week" and saw that about 70% of my teaching reading list was on it. Fuck it. I was not a Wonder Bread kind of teacher, although my students became less and less used to being challenged over time with ideas from outside of the boxes of their world views. When i started my career, my students challenged me, staged protests and walkouts, even plastered my door with quotes from radical writers. But the time i was done, I was the radical in the room and students--even the gender nonconforming ones and race warriors--were mostly just trying to find ways to please me.

[TSherbs]

I'm just chatting and sharing, dneal. I tell you this many times.

[TSherbs]

Not sure what Twain has to do with the Florida law and Judge Walker's ruling.

From the injunction - the facts of the legislation:


In 2022, the Florida Legislature passed the “Individual Freedom Act” (IFA).
The IFA amended the Florida Educational Equity Act (FEEA) to prohibit “training or instruction that espouses, promotes, advances, inculcates, or compels . . . student[s] or employee[s] to believe [eight specified concepts].” § 1000.05(4)(a), Florida Statutes (2022). These eight concepts are as follows:

1. Members of one race, color, national origin, or sex are morally superior to members of another race, color, national origin, or sex.
2. A person, by virtue of his or her race, color, national origin, or sex is inherently racist, sexist, or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously.
3. A person’s moral character or status as either privileged or oppressed is necessarily determined by his or her race, color, national origin, or sex.
4. Members of one race, color, national origin, or sex cannot and should not attempt to treat others without respect to race, color, national origin, or sex.
5. A person, by virtue of his or her race, color, national origin, or sex bears responsibility for, or should be discriminated against or receive adverse treatment because of, actions committed in the past by other members of the same race, color, national origin, or sex.
6. A person, by virtue of his or her race, color, national origin, or sex should be discriminated against or receive adverse treatment to achieve diversity, equity, or inclusion.
7. A person, by virtue of his or her race, color, sex, or national origin, bears personal responsibility for and must feel guilt, anguish, or other forms of psychological distress because of actions, in which the person played no part, committed in the past by other members of the same race, color, national origin, or sex.
8. Such virtues as merit, excellence, hard work, fairness, neutrality, objectivity, and racial colorblindness are racist or sexist, or were created by members of a particular race, color, national origin, or sex to oppress members of another race, color, national origin, or sex.

The IFA also included a so-called “savings clause,”6 which states that the foregoing “may not be construed to prohibit discussion of the concepts listed therein as part of a larger course of training or instruction, provided such training or instruction is given in an objective manner without endorsement of the concepts.” § 1000.05(4)(b), Fla. Stat. (2022). Thus, professors may “discuss” the eight concepts listed above in class, but they must do so “in an objective manner” and “without endorsement of the concepts.”

What part do you disagree with?

All eight.

[dneal]

Ok, but regarding the Florida legislation and Judge Walker's injunction... what part do you disagree with? All those ideas may be included in the classroom. The law prohibits discriminating based on whether one accepts or denies the concepts. Judge Walker thinks that's Orwellian.

[TSherbs]

I answered your question, but I have no inclination for debate or a defense of my views. I've been very transparent and honest. I've had similar debates/discussions with colleagues and bosses and other teachers at conferences in the past. I have no inclination to continue in that vein now, especially not in an internet forum. I don't mind exchanging positions, though, for elucidation. If you want more of a debate or argument, I think you have to look elsewhere (I have said this before, too).

[Bold2013]

I once looked at a banned book list during "Banned Books Week" and saw that about 70% of my teaching reading list was on it. Fuck it. I was not a Wonder Bread kind of teacher, although my students became less and less used to being challenged over time with ideas from outside of the boxes of their world views. When i started my career, my students challenged me, staged protests and walkouts, even plastered my door with quotes from radical writers. But the time i was done, I was the radical in the room and students--even the gender nonconforming ones and race warriors--were mostly just trying to find ways to please me.

This is why my wife and I keep tabs on our local schools.

[dneal]

I'm just chatting and sharing, dneal. I tell you this many times.

We seem to be cross-posting, but I don't have a problem with chatting and sharing. It does become confusing when the chat doesn't follow any sort of thematic flow. I thought we were chatting about the Florida law and Judge Walker's ruling.

I'm simply seeking clarity on your opinion. Disagreeing with "all eight", for example, makes it unclear whether you are referring to them absent context or if you disagree with all eight being prohibited as a requirement to employment, degree, etc...

[TSherbs]

I know that you think wokism is mostly bad. You have said this, basically, about gender diversity and about race (if I remember right). I don't expect you to change, nor am I interested in some sort of debate/defense/persuade scenario. I simply posted an update on the legal side of the case in FLA and knew you liked to quote Orwell. That's it. There'll be more cases, likely, and the story will continue. I am not interested in wrestling matches. I no longer sharpen my ideas on the steel of others'. I read from the dhamapada this morning about immaturity and wisdom. I'm trying to grow (for real).

[TSherbs]

We are cross posting. I'll stop.

[Chuck Naill]

I knew the new bromance would eventually show cracks, but not this soon.

“Narcissists will never tell you the truth. They live with the fear of abandonment and can't deal with facing their own shame. Therefore, they will twist the truth, downplay their behavior, blame others and say what ever it takes to remain the victim. They are master manipulators and conartists that don't believe you are smart enough to figure out the depth of their disloyalty. Their needs will always be more important than telling you any truth that isn't in their favor..”
― Shannon L. Alder

[TSherbs]

What's this about, Chuck?

[TSherbs]

How did that go for Stacey Abrams? Well, I guess it is worth a try (although don't ask Trump's lawyers: they ended up facing censure and having to pay all the fees involved)

Kari Lake is going to sue...awesome...never would have predicted this, you know, since when asked she basically said that she would only accept if she won (that should sound familiar, too)...

https://apnews.com/article/2022-midterm-elections-arizona-phoenix-government-and-politics-bcea98345ee81ec1b8fa6a5364bc296f

[dneal]

I'll give Stacey Abrams credit though, she was tenacious in her first defeat. Kari needs to shut up and take the loss. I enjoyed her sparring with the media, and her experience as a journalist showed in her polished rhetoric; but the time for election denying is over. It's too cliche, if nothing else.

[TSherbs]

I did not mind Gore trying to keep the counting going. I believe in counting every fucking ballot.

But I did not like Abrams' suit.

I did not like Hilary's whining.

I HATED Trump's debacle.

ANd I sure don't like this, Recounts are fine, when they are triggered by law. We should be patient and get it right according to the rules of state law. Why not. But throwing these things to the courts is a massive diversion and waste of time and resources and good will in the populace (whatever might be left). It's craven. She literally--like Trump--would not say that she would accept defeat if she lost.

That should disqualify one from office, like it should say on the nomination form, "Once ballot counting is complete, I hearby agree to accept the certified results of the several states of the United States of America (or several districts and counties of my state) Failure to do so means forfeiture of entitlement to the office regardless of the outcome"...etc etc.

[TSherbs]

If you have not seen it in a while (I had not), here is the text of Al Gore's concession speech in December of 2000 (sorry for the lousy format, I fixed as much as my patience could tolerate)

Dec. 13, 2000 -- The following is the text of Vice President Al Gore’s address to the nation, in which he withdrew his claim to the hotly contested 2000 presidential race.

GORE: Good evening.
Just moments ago, I spoke with George W. Bush and congratulated him on becoming the 43rd president of the United States — and I promised him that I wouldn’t call him back this time.
I offered to meet with him as soon as possible so that we can start to heal the divisions of the campaign and the contest through which we just passed.
Almost a century and a half ago, Senator Stephen Douglas (ph)told Abraham Lincoln, who had just defeated him for the presidency,“Partisan feeling must yield to patriotism. I’m with you, Mr.President, and God bless you.”
Well, in that same spirit, I say to President-elect Bush thatwhat remains of partisan rancor must now be put aside, and may Godbless his stewardship of this country.
Neither he nor I anticipated this long and difficult road.Certainly neither of us wanted it to happen. Yet it came, and now it has ended, resolved, as it must be resolved, through the honored institutions of our democracy.
Over the library of one of our great law schools is inscribed the motto, “Not under man but under God and law.” That’s the ruling principle of American freedom, the source of our democratic liberties. I’ve tried to make it my guide throughout this contest as it has guided America’s deliberations of all the complex issues of the past five weeks.
Now the U.S. Supreme Court has spoken. Let there be no doubt,while I strongly disagree with the court’s decision, I accept it. I accept the finality of this outcome which will be ratified next Monday in the Electoral College. And tonight, for the sake of our unity of the people and the strength of our democracy, I offer my concession.
I also accept my responsibility, which I will discharge unconditionally, to honor the new president elect and do everything possible to help him bring Americans together in fulfillment of the great vision that our Declaration of Independence defines and that our Constitution affirms and defends. Let me say how grateful I am to all those who supported me and supported the cause for which we have fought. Tipper and I feel a deep gratitude to Joe and Hadassah Lieberman who brought passion and high purpose to our partnership and opened new doors, not just for our campaign but for our country.
This has been an extraordinary election. But in one of God’s unforeseen paths, this belatedly broken impasse can point us all to a new common ground, for its very closeness can serve to remind us that we are one people with a shared history and a shared destiny.
Indeed, that history gives us many examples of contests as hotly debated, as fiercely fought, with their own challenges to the popular will. Other disputes have dragged on for weeks before reaching resolution. And each time, both the victor and the vanquished have accepted the result peacefully and in the spirit of reconciliation.

So let it be with us.

I know that many of my supporters are disappointed. I am too.But our disappointment must be overcome by our love of country.
And I say to our fellow members of the world community, let no one see this contest as a sign of American weakness. The strength ofAmerican democracy is shown most clearly through the difficulties it can overcome.
Some have expressed concern that the unusual nature of this election might hamper the next president in the conduct of his office.I do not believe it need be so.
President-elect Bush inherits a nation whose citizens will be ready to assist him in the conduct of his large responsibilities.
I personally will be at his disposal, and I call on all Americans — I particularly urge all who stood with us to unite behind our next president. This is America. Just as we fight hard when the stakes are high, we close ranks and come together when the contest is done.
And while there will be time enough to debate our continuing differences, now is the time to recognize that that which unites us is greater than that which divides us.
While we yet hold and do not yield our opposing beliefs, there is a higher duty than the one we owe to political party. This is America and we put country before party. We will stand together behind our new president.
As for what I’ll do next, I don’t know the answer to that one yet. Like many of you, I’m looking forward to spending the holidays with family and old friends. I know I’ll spend time inTennessee and mend some fences, literally and figuratively.
Some have asked whether I have any regrets and I do have one regret: that I didn’t get the chance to stay and fight for theAmerican people over the next four years, especially for those who need burdens lifted and barriers removed, especially for those who feel their voices have not been heard. I heard you and I will not forget.
I’ve seen America in this campaign and I like what I see. It’s worth fighting for and that’s a fight I’ll never stop.
As for the battle that ends tonight, I do believe as my father once said, that no matter how hard the loss, defeat might serve as well as victory to shape the soul and let the glory out. So for me this campaign ends as it began: with the love of Tipper and our family; with faith in God and in the country I have been so proud to serve, from Vietnam to the vice presidency; and with gratitude to our truly tireless campaign staff and volunteers,including all those who worked so hard in Florida for the last 36 days.
Now the political struggle is over and we turn again to the unending struggle for the common good of all Americans and for those multitudes around the world who look to us for leadership in the cause of freedom.
In the words of our great hymn, “America, America” “Let us crown thy good with brotherhood, from sea to shining sea.”
And now, my friends, in a phrase I once addressed to others, it’s time for me to go.
Thank you and good night, and God bless America.

[TSherbs]

I read Josh Hawley's OpEd in the NYT (or WaPo?) today. Wow, do I dislike that guy and his ideas. dneal, did you vote for him in 2018 (or whenever that was)? I not going to bash you for it, I am just curious if he is your cup of tea. He's obviously smart, and has been an effective lawyer.

[Chuck Naill]

What's this about, Chuck?

Watching you suck up to @dneal for the sake of engagement. Have you no balls???

[dneal]

I read Josh Hawley's OpEd in the NYT (or WaPo?) today. Wow, do I dislike that guy and his ideas. dneal, did you vote for him in 2018 (or whenever that was)? I not going to bash you for it, I am just curious if he is your cup of tea. He's obviously smart, and has been an effective lawyer.

I’m on the record that I vote, but not for President, representative or senator - those that can declare war or recall me to service. Like most people, he has some things I agree with and some things I don’t. Generally I’m not a fan though.

[TSherbs]

What's this about, Chuck?

Watching you suck up to @dneal for the sake of engagement. Have you no balls???

godsake Chuck

whatever

have a good weekend

[TSherbs]

I read Josh Hawley's OpEd in the NYT (or WaPo?) today. Wow, do I dislike that guy and his ideas. dneal, did you vote for him in 2018 (or whenever that was)? I not going to bash you for it, I am just curious if he is your cup of tea. He's obviously smart, and has been an effective lawyer.

I’m on the record that I vote, but not for President, representative or senator - those that can declare war or recall me to service. Like most people, he has some things I agree with and some things I don’t. Generally I’m not a fan though.

What can a senator do with the military?

[dneal]

I read Josh Hawley's OpEd in the NYT (or WaPo?) today. Wow, do I dislike that guy and his ideas. dneal, did you vote for him in 2018 (or whenever that was)? I not going to bash you for it, I am just curious if he is your cup of tea. He's obviously smart, and has been an effective lawyer.

I’m on the record that I vote, but not for President, representative or senator - those that can declare war or recall me to service. Like most people, he has some things I agree with and some things I don’t. Generally I’m not a fan though.

What can a senator do with the military?

Retired officers can be recalled by the President (under current law passed by Congress), and Congress declares war (or whatever we choose to call it now).

[724Seney]

What's this about, Chuck?

Watching you suck up to @dneal for the sake of engagement. Have you no balls???

godsake Chuck

whatever

have a good weekend


Chuck's comments are completely uncalled for.......not to mention mean-spirited.
But not a surprise. I KNEW sooner or later he would do something like this..........even EoC would not stoop this low (I don't think).

TSherbs, maybe now you can see why I think he is a supreme asshole & as stupid as they come.

Oh, and Chuck, please note I am speaking for myself and no one else.

[TSherbs]

I read Josh Hawley's OpEd in the NYT (or WaPo?) today. Wow, do I dislike that guy and his ideas. dneal, did you vote for him in 2018 (or whenever that was)? I not going to bash you for it, I am just curious if he is your cup of tea. He's obviously smart, and has been an effective lawyer.

I’m on the record that I vote, but not for President, representative or senator - those that can declare war or recall me to service. Like most people, he has some things I agree with and some things I don’t. Generally I’m not a fan though.

What can a senator do with the military?

Retired officers can be recalled by the President (under current law passed by Congress), and Congress declares war (or whatever we choose to call it now).

roger

I thought that war was House only...

[TSherbs]

Why not join the conversation, Seney?

[724Seney]

Why not join the conversation, Seney?

I compliment you & dneal on what you are doing.
I'm following it / them along and have not really found anything I strongly disagree with or can supplement.
I have as little an appetite for the Trump candidacy as you do.

Rest assured, if I have something which I believes merits a post, I will do so. As is evidenced by my post, above, in position #213

[TSherbs]

Why not join the conversation, Seney?
I have as little an appetite for the Trump candidacy as you do

Who did you vote for in your state? What are you looking for? Are you religious, for example? Libertarian? Fiscal conservative?

[TSherbs]

Will be interesting to see what these Whitmer kidnapping case sentences are.

Meanwhile, retrial motion denied (not unexpected):

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2022/11/25/federal-judge-denies-whitmer-kidnappers-motion-for-new-trial/69677945007/

[TSherbs]

Trump, Ye, Yiannopoulos, Fuentes: snakes in a pit turn on each other.

[Chuck Naill]

Is this a surprise, Ted?

[TSherbs]

Is this a surprise, Ted?

No, just a reminder of what a poor judge of character Trump was and is. He boasted that he was the best hirer ever (or something like that...like how he boasted that he knew war better than the generals), but Trump never met a suck-up (or pretend suckup) whom he did not invite into his residence....

[dneal]

Speaking of administration hires…

Nonbinary Biden official Sam Brinton charged after stealing luggage at airport, using it for a month (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/crime/sam-brinton-charged-stealing-luggage-airport)

73674

I also found this odd


73675

[Chuck Naill]

Good to see a normal welcome for the French president.

[Chuck Naill]

Not sure where to place this quote from Heather Cox Richardson,
"Biden asked Congress on Monday, November 28, to act to prevent a rail strike, but there was a long history behind this particular measure, and an even longer one behind the government’s pressure on railroad workers.

The story behind today’s crisis started in 2017 when former president Trump’s trade war hammered agriculture and manufacturing, leading railroad companies to fire workers—more than 20,000 of them in 2019 alone, dropping the number of railroad workers in the U.S. below 200,000 for the first time since the Department of Labor began to keep track of such statistics in the 1940s. By December 2020, the industry had lost 40,000 jobs, most of them among the people who actually operated the trains.

Those jobs did not come back even after the economy did, though, as railroad companies implemented a system called precision scheduled railroading, or PSR. “We fundamentally changed the way we operate over the last 2½ years,” Bryan Tucker, vice president of communications at railroad corporation CSX told Heather Long of the Washington Post in January 2020. “It’s a different way of running a railroad.”

https://heathercoxrichardson.substack.com/p/december-5-2022?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email

I wonder how many RR workers know that Trump caused their present condition.

[TSherbs]

It is the federal government's job, periodically, to tell essential workers (to the welfare and security of the country) that they must honor their contracts (get back to work or be fired).

[Chuck Naill]

It is the federal government's job, periodically, to tell essential workers (to the welfare and security of the country) that they must honor their contracts (get back to work or be fired).

I never worked for a union or had a contract; I am sure it has its benefits as well as risks. I have a retired relative who said he could be "called out" to take a train somewhere at any moment. While they make decent money, obviously there is the problem with trying to have a somewhat predictable life. Even medical workers know if they are on call.

I do remember Reagan firing the Air Traffic Control workers around 1980.

[TSherbs]

It is the federal government's job, periodically, to tell essential workers (to the welfare and security of the country) that they must honor their contracts (get back to work or be fired).

I never worked for a union or had a contract; I am sure it has its benefits as well as risks. I have a retired relative who said he could be "called out" to take a train somewhere at any moment. While they make decent money, obviously there is the problem with trying to have a somewhat predictable life. Even medical workers know if they are on call.

I do remember Reagan firing the Air Traffic Control workers around 1980.

Yes, I sympathize with the workers. But as with the air-traffic controllers, there are national interests at play also.

[Chuck Naill]

It is the federal government's job, periodically, to tell essential workers (to the welfare and security of the country) that they must honor their contracts (get back to work or be fired).

I never worked for a union or had a contract; I am sure it has its benefits as well as risks. I have a retired relative who said he could be "called out" to take a train somewhere at any moment. While they make decent money, obviously there is the problem with trying to have a somewhat predictable life. Even medical workers know if they are on call.

I do remember Reagan firing the Air Traffic Control workers around 1980.

Yes, I sympathize with the workers. But as with the air-traffic controllers, there are national interests at play also.

Also, the same retired RR worker said his trains killed a couple dozen people over his career trying to outrun the train. He had to walk back, inspect, and call it in. it took a toll.

[TSherbs]

Lengthy prison terms today for two more of the Whitmer kidnapping plotters.

[Chuck Naill]

Lengthy prison terms today for two more of the Whitmer kidnapping plotters.

"I guess they say she was threatened," Donald Trump

[Chuck Naill]

For those of us, 3 or four, this is vindication that Trump was flawed from the beginning. He fooled many and continues to do so.


"Yesterday, former president Trump took to his Truth Social media platform to announce that he would be making “a MAJOR ANNOUNCEMENT” today. Since he recently threw his hat in the ring for president in 2024, there was a great deal of speculation about what political move this would be.

When it came today, it turned out that his announcement was for digital trading cards with images of him as a superhero…available for $99 apiece. Radio personality John Melendez promptly called them “Broke’mon cards.”

Ron Filipkowski, a former federal prosecutor and Republican who now monitors right-wing extremism, tweeted: “All I can say is that those of us who have lost friends, fought with relatives, resigned positions, been called traitor, left our party, all because we saw very clearly what a con-man, huckster and fraud this man is, have never felt more vindicated.”

The reduction of the former president to a cartoon grifter seems likely to have political repercussions. Right-wing media personality Baked Alaska, who is facing six months in jail after pleading guilty to parading, demonstrating or picketing inside a Capitol building for his participation in the January 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol, tweeted: “i can’t believe i’m going to jail for an nft salesman,” with a sad face emoji."

https://heathercoxrichardson.substack.com/p/december-15-2022?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email

[TSherbs]

"We told you so" is on many people's lips.

Where's his family on this?

[Chuck Naill]

"We told you so" is on many people's lips.

Where's his family on this?

How could you see him for what he was, and others couldn't? Like the federal prosecutor said, he divided us from our families and friends. Some of our friends and fellow employees died because they went along with his pandemic nonsense. Such tragedy!!

[Chuck Naill]

Someone mentioned DeSantis...

"But getting vaccinated is mainly about protecting yourself. Why wouldn’t you want to do that?

The immediate answer is the widespread belief on the right that the vaccines have terrible side effects. This belief is hard to justify: If it were true, shouldn’t there be a lot of evidence for such claims, given that more than 13 billion doses have been administered worldwide?

Ah, but the usual suspects claim that sinister elites are suppressing the evidence. Which brings us back to DeSantis, who announced on Tuesday that he was forming a state committee to counter federal health policy recommendations — and asking for a grand jury investigation into unspecified “crimes and misdemeanors” related to coronavirus vaccines.

OK, I doubt that anyone believes that DeSantis knows or cares about the scientific evidence here. What he’s doing instead is catering to a Republican base that equates listening to experts, on public health or anything else, with “wokeness,” and demonizes anyone saying things it doesn’t want to hear.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/15/opinion/ron-desantis-vaccines-2024-election.html

Sound familar?? This is why Republicans need another option.

[TSherbs]

"We told you so" is on many people's lips.

Where's his family on this?

How could you see him for what he was, and others couldn't? Like the federal prosecutor said, he divided us from our families and friends. Some of our friends and fellow employees died because they went along with his pandemic nonsense. Such tragedy!!

I answered this on the other thread....

[TSherbs]

A David French piece on the power of the Trump con:


How Much Longer Can Trump's Con Endure?
By David French

Many years ago, a con man came to my church. I belonged to a small working-class congregation in rural Kentucky. Although most of the members had jobs, many folks were struggling, living paycheck to paycheck and desperate for some degree of financial security.

Enter the con man. He was starting a new multilevel-marketing plan featuring diet pills. MLMs are nothing new, and many of them operate quite legally across the country. Legal MLMs make their revenue primarily from their products. An illegal MLM, by contrast, is little more than a pyramid scheme, with participants earning money almost exclusively by recruiting new participants.

A pyramid scheme is inherently unstable. The instant its recruiting pool dries up (which can happen remarkably quickly), it runs out of cash. Most people lose money, but the founder of the scheme can often pocket extraordinary profits.

I knew the MLM at my church was a scam the moment I heard the pitch. “If you want to take the pills, fine, but don’t worry about selling them. Just bring in your friends, and let your friends bring in their friends, and you’ll start building your business, fast!” At first, I wasn’t concerned. The pitch was so obviously too good to be true that I didn’t think my friends would fall for it. But I was wrong. I’d underestimated people’s dissatisfaction with their jobs and the appeal of a new opportunity. The con man’s product was a pyramid scheme, but he marketed something else. He marketed hope.

I was the only lawyer at the church, and—as luck would have it—I’d just finished working on a securities-fraud case that involved a pyramid scheme. I knew the law. I also knew how the pyramid worked, and I set about explaining it to my friends. I even went to one of the pyramid sales pitches and talked it over afterwards.
Remember, this was years ago. I was young, barely out of law school, and I thought that the folks at my church would be happy to hear the truth. I presumed they’d be glad to dodge a fraudulent bullet. After all, they weren’t hearing warnings from just anybody; I was their neighbor. I was a deacon. I had even represented the church in a successful First Amendment lawsuit.

None of that mattered. Not only did most of my friends completely reject my warnings, but a few of them were also furious with me. I was shocked and hurt. In my mind, I was only trying to help. In my mind, I was using the gifts God gave me to protect those closest to me from harm.

But that was in my mind. What was in the minds of my angry friends? It took years for me to see it clearly, but now I do. On the one side, there was a man who offered hope and relief from the crushing financial burdens of their lives. But what did I offer? At best, it was the status quo. I didn’t come with any hope. I promised no relief at all.
I’m thinking about cons today because of yesterday’s “major announcement” from Donald Trump. After teasing something dramatic, he unveiled a set of digital Trump trading cards, available for a whopping $99 apiece. The trading cards are non-fungible tokens, or NFTs, unique digital files that only the owner can possess.
At the height of the NFT craze, in 2021, people were paying absurd sums of money for digital files. In March 2021, an NFT of Jack Dorsey’s first tweet sold for $2.9 million. This past May, auction bids for the same NFT “topped out at just $14,000.” Trump jumping into the NFT market is like jumping into the pet-rock market in 1976 or investing in Dutch tulips in March 1637.

But don’t tell Trump’s most devoted fans. According to a real-time tracker, Trump allegedly made more than $4 million only a day after his announcement.
Indeed, this is hardly Trump’s first con. Yesterday, HuffPost reported that Trump spent only a small fraction of the money he’d raised, ostensibly, to aid GOP Senate candidates. The rest, he hoarded for his own presidential campaign.

The most spectacular and dangerous of Trump’s cons was his “Stop the Steal” effort after the 2020 election. In addition to conning tens of millions of Republicans into believing a free and fair election was broken and corrupt, he raised $250 million to support an “Election Defense Fund” that the January 6 select committee says did not exist.

One can write books about Trump’s various cons, yet, until recently, his Republican support remained rock-solid, despite his obvious lies and grift. The reasons are complex, but they’re related to the story I told at the start of this newsletter. Ever since I first raised concerns about Trump, in 2015, I’ve experienced one long case of déjà vu.
As friends and neighbors expressed anger and frustration with my opposition to Trump, I felt like I was back in my small church, stealing hope from people gripped with fear. “Make America Great Again” was a genius slogan, and by the end of the primary season in 2016, the alternative to MAGA was exactly the thing that Republicans feared so much: the status quo of Democratic control of the Oval Office.

In fact, Hillary Clinton was so despised that many millions of Americans viewed her as worse than the status quo. Never Trumpers like me threatened to take away Republican hope and give Republicans nothing in return—nothing but the very reality they were hoping to escape.
There’s an important lesson here, applicable to pyramid schemes, politics, and a host of cultural challenges where people find hope and purpose in all the wrong places. You can’t fact-check a person out of hope and purpose. They’ll resent you even if you’re right.

Instead, it’s always preferable, if at all possible, to replace something bad with something better. That’s a key reason Trump is losing altitude now. It’s not that his behavior has been meaningfully worse since he left office (it’s hard to top January 6 as an act of dangerous political malice); rather, Republicans are starting to realize that someone else is likely a better ambassador for their policies and values.

In other words, arguing against Trump no longer means arguing for a Republican defeat. Trump’s opponents can offer their own version of hope. So far, that “someone else” seems to be Florida Governor Ron DeSantis (I’m far from sold on DeSantis, but that’s a piece for a different time), but for the moment, the identity of the alternative is less important than the existence of an alternative—and it’s that very existence that just might finally break the spell of the Trump con.

[Chuck Naill]

That's a great example of what many of us have been enduring, @tsherbs!! Thanks for sharing.

Yesterday I sent a link, https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/how-nra-rewrote-second-amendment, on how the NRA rewrote the Second Amendment to two associates. Only one responded with something about states' rights. In other words, their response had nothing to do with the Second Amendment. While I knew I was right and had been right the whole time that the SA has nothing to do with American gun ownership, regardless of Heller, I now realize that arguing otherwise will put me in poor standing with my acquaintances.

So, what am I doing by arguing that the Alamo wasn't about Texas independence, but becoming a slave state? Well, for me it is important to own the truth so that it can be said at an appropriate time. Maybe understanding that Trump was a con the whole time cannot be said right now, but some day it can be. And this truth serves to show that DeSantis the same in some ways. Respect produces sway. Only those that know us and respect our character will ever listen anyway. The only way to sway is coming from a position of character.

I read a lot of op-eds. These folks are often blistered for what they write. If we are not willing to be blistered, we might as well keep our mouths closed.

[TSherbs]

Thanks, Chuck. Another reason to post things is that in writing them out, we figure out just what we think. We clarify our ideas to ourselves. There is value in that, too.

I can say, at least for my own clarification, that I believe from the start that Trump's primary motivation has been to pump his brand and monetize the exposure. Venture after venture is about trying to monetize his brand, the recent NFT kitsch is no different. He's a huckster and always has been. Plenty of Americans love hucksterism; sell, sell, sell. It's what America does.

There are other aspects to his candidacy (the populist motivations), but I have commented on that elsewhere.

[Chuck Naill]

This was a referenced article in an op-ed I was reading this AM.

"There is only one reason among all of the many cited by Thiessen that Republicans are turning away from Donald Trump now: because he cannot win. Everything else they were perfectly willing to put up with, and they would put up with it again—if only they believed that he stood a chance of helping keep them in power.

Really."
https://www.thebulwark.com/youre-only-leaving-trump-now/

[TSherbs]

This was a referenced article in an op-ed I was reading this AM.

"There is only one reason among all of the many cited by Thiessen that Republicans are turning away from Donald Trump now: because he cannot win. Everything else they were perfectly willing to put up with, and they would put up with it again—if only they believed that he stood a chance of helping keep them in power.

Really."
https://www.thebulwark.com/youre-only-leaving-trump-now/

good column

I agree completely: Trump's deeply flawed and disgusting behaviors were fully apparent for anyone who cared before he was president and also while he was president. To be slack-jawed now and not have been before is simply a matter of political convenience.

[Chuck Naill]

Does anyone know if Trump ever paid those cities where he held rallies?

[TSherbs]

Are there user fees?

[Chuck Naill]

Are there user fees?

There were cities in 2019-2020 still waiting from 2016.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/campaign-rally-bills-trump-10-cities_n_5d02e5a6e4b0304a120c9a1c

[kazoolaw]

Advice about advancing money to candidates/politicians: Don't
"After raising more than $100 million in her second bid to be Georgia governor, the Stacey Abrams campaign owes more than $1 million in debt to vendors, two-time campaign manager Lauren Groh-Wargo confirmed to Axios."
https://www.axios.com/2022/12/19/stacey-abrams-campaign-georgia-governor-debt

[Chuck Naill]

Are you concerned equally that Trump raised a quarter of a billion promoting his election was stolen, or is your concern, as I suspect, subjective?

[kazoolaw]

"Candidates/politicians " is a deliberately bipartisan term.

[Chuck Naill]

So, you have no problem with his fund raising off a lie? How does that square with your religion?

[kazoolaw]

Argument flaw dissected: it is a common tactic to totally misstate the other side's point and then argue against a point that was never made. Sometimes it is combined with an attempt to divert with an entirely off-target appeal, in this case anti religious sentiment.
Understand that there is no need to respond to this tactic by engaging with its false premise. Simply note how far off-target the comment is, ignore it, and move on.

[TSherbs]

Are there user fees?

There were cities in 2019-2020 still waiting from 2016.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/campaign-rally-bills-trump-10-cities_n_5d02e5a6e4b0304a120c9a1c
I have no idea how you collect this, especially from Trump.

[kazoolaw]

Many people think that winning a judgment in court means the money falls in your lap.
Just the first step. If there is no insurance coverage [and many's the fight whether there is or not] then you have to find assets to collect from. There is a sub-specialty of protecting assets from collection. And then there is the specter of bankruptcy.
Oh, do you think Don signed for anything as an individual?