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fountainpenkid
April 7th, 2013, 07:21 PM
Well, I decided to take a peak at FPN to see if anything interesting is going on, and I see some pretty crazy stuff. They now are making the rules more and more complex, but that is nothing new. The thing that really surprised me is this: there are now 3 "special" accounts for people who sell a lot of pens or just want to be more "powerful." You have to pay $90, $180, or $350 bucks to get them, but it gives you more power...to sell pens on the classifieds, as well as to have more power over topics. And yet they insist that the classifieds are not for member that only want to sell pens... This leaves me with a very bad taste in my mouth. I immediately have had my account deleted. Anybody else really find this going too far?

woosang
April 7th, 2013, 07:22 PM
Oh? I have to pop in and have a peak

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk 2

jar
April 7th, 2013, 07:56 PM
I don't see the problem. But if storming out makes you feel better go for it.

fountainpenkid
April 7th, 2013, 08:00 PM
It just seems a bit too controlled and hierarchical and silly. But I would completely understand others' (who are more connected to it at present) choice to live with it...maybe it is just me.

Bogon07
April 7th, 2013, 09:19 PM
FPK, it looks like they have decided that if you are going to use FPN to make money from pen sales then you should contibute towards the site up keep, hence the Premium Accounts. For those who use the forum solely to sell or trade in volume.

I'm not quite sure of the wording of this part of the rules and how that would be enforced. Could be aimed at those who are putting it discussion posts just to draw attention to their blogs for commercial gain ?

In a subject discussed on The Fountain Pen Network, links to other sites (including links to Blogs (http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?/blogs/)) may only be posted by approved and paying Premium Account Holders (http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?/store/category/6-premium-accounts/). Links, redirects or pointers to content, which duplicate content as found on The Fountain Pen Network, are not allowed.

KrazyIvan
April 7th, 2013, 10:20 PM
I saw that Bogon. Makes me worry. I think it is in conflict with another rule that says you CAN post blog links but you have to at least summarize your post. Confusing.

southpaw52
April 8th, 2013, 01:50 PM
Many of the members on FPN, are not overly happy about what is going either.

KrazyIvan
April 8th, 2013, 03:34 PM
Just read the thread. I seem to visit FPN less and less. There are a couple of threads that I do like reading. I also like helping with the noob questions when I see them. I had pretty much stopped posting my reviews there except for the odd ball here and there. *sigh* I don't quite understand something about the external links. Sometimes when someone solicited advise on a certain pen and I have a review on said pen I would post a link to my blog review. I guess I cannot do that anymore?

Bogon07
April 8th, 2013, 06:09 PM
KI, maybe you should approach the Administrators about that as their wording could do with some clarification. You are not selling stationery but sharing knowledge which I assume is the whole point of the FPN & FPG forums.

I find FPN very sloooooooow on any PC or iPad which limits my enthusiasm for visiting.

I think I can sort of see the Admin's reasoning behind these new rules. They seem to have become concerned about a perceived trend towards commercialisation away from a community forum.
Also their ruling on appraisals indicates there were some complaints about that aspect as well. There appears to have been a resurgence of interest in stationery and fountain pens in particular which is going to attract purely business orientated individuals who are trying to use these sites as free advertising after all they have a ready made audience of potential buyers.

Tracy Lee
April 9th, 2013, 12:09 AM
Have only been to the site twice, and ages ago. I had trouble following threads but perhaps that was lack of forum experience. At any rate, my husband uses a prop replica forum and their rules are very strict so it does depend on the mods and what their goals are. Sometimes those goals are not compatible with all users. I so enjoy this community and the free exchange of information, reviews, opinions, etc. I have learned so much I don't have a need for another forum right now. But I am a FP simpleton compared to most of you, so I hope you can encourage clarity on their new rules so you can continue to enjoy that community, too.

fountainpenkid
April 9th, 2013, 04:48 AM
FPK, it looks like they have decided that if you are going to use FPN to make money from pen sales then you should contribute towards the site up keep, hence the Premium Accounts. For those who use the forum solely to sell or trade in volume.

I'm not quite sure of the wording of this part of the rules and how that would be enforced. Could be aimed at those who are putting it discussion posts just to draw attention to their blogs for commercial gain ?

I think so. But if you are willing to shell out the dough, you get that power and much, much more?

jar
April 9th, 2013, 10:20 AM
I don't see anything that would effect the average user. Sure, some of the wording will have to get sorted out but that's normal. Frankly, it looks to be no big deal.

Sailor Kenshin
April 9th, 2013, 11:01 AM
FPK, it looks like they have decided that if you are going to use FPN to make money from pen sales then you should contibute towards the site up keep, hence the Premium Accounts. For those who use the forum solely to sell or trade in volume.

I'm not quite sure of the wording of this part of the rules and how that would be enforced. Could be aimed at those who are putting it discussion posts just to draw attention to their blogs for commercial gain ?

Ruh roh. I think I just did that. Not to sell anything but I post links to my blog all the time.

KrazyIvan
April 9th, 2013, 11:54 AM
This does affect average joe members with blogs as myself. Watch_art posted:

The rule:

In a subject discussed on The Fountain Pen Network, links to other sites (including links to Blogs) may only be posted by approved and paying Premium Account Holders. Links, redirects or pointers to content, which duplicate content as found on The Fountain Pen Network, are not allowed. The Fountain Pen Network is a free service to our members, and The Fountain Pen Network maintains sets of rules, posting limitations, and a fee structure for those advertising goods, services, and external information sources such as blogs and sites which have similar content to the Fountain Pen Network.

and watch_arts answer:


I think the second part is speaking specifically to people posting links to their own blogs/sites in an effort to drive traffic their way. The rule I posted would cover everything you're talking about above, like posting a link about baby bottom for educational purposes. You're not Binder, so the first rule applies to you. If you were Binder, the second rule would apply to you, so you'd have to be a paying member to post links to your own blog/site, in that example.

While I am not trying to drive traffic to my blog, it is convenient to just post a link to something I may have already stated in a blog post. They are also saying that links in your sig may require payment. I am not happy about that either.

Sailor Kenshin
April 9th, 2013, 03:02 PM
Are you KIDDING? No more links in your siggy line? Because I have TWO.

fountainpenkid
April 9th, 2013, 03:38 PM
This does affect average joe members with blogs as myself. Watch_art posted:

The rule:


and watch_arts answer:



While I am not trying to drive traffic to my blog, it is convenient to just post a link to something I may have already stated in a blog post. They are also saying that links in your sig may require payment. I am not happy about that either.

How ridiculous. Really, I can imagine all the time you bloggers take to write your reviews...and to have to re-write it all (even if it is copying and pasting) is a royal pain the ass for no reason. Why shouldn't someone be able to give their blog a little kickstart???

Maja
April 9th, 2013, 08:30 PM
How ridiculous. Really, I can imagine all the time you bloggers take to write your reviews...and to have to re-write it all (even if it is copying and pasting) is a royal pain the ass for no reason. Why shouldn't someone be able to give their blog a little kickstart???
Answer: because if the review disappears from the reviewer's blog, it disappears from the FPN site as well, and it's very annoying (think of all the stuff hosted by Photobucket et al that disappears when someone deletes images from their albums).

FPN is a very large, popular and expensive site to host and they have never charged anyone a penny to post anything there since it was launched in 2004 (the site even hosts images posted by members, something that many other pen sites do not). The Admins and Mods are all volunteers. The fact that high-volume & professional sellers who wish to continue advertising their wares now have to purchase premium accounts does not affect the vast majority of FPN members...far from it. And since I don't want to waste any more FPGeeks bandwidth on the topic, I will stop there. :)

fountainpenkid
April 10th, 2013, 04:26 AM
You definitely have a point about the review disappearing. I guess as this story further becomes clearer to me it makes more sense why they did this...though not to the extent they did.

Sailor Kenshin
April 10th, 2013, 06:01 AM
FPN is offline now.... Was it something I said? :p

jbb
April 10th, 2013, 07:45 AM
I'm hoping FPN raises the selling limit for inexpensive items. I like to sell little things in the $3-$20 range for diversion and a bit of pocket money.... buy if I can only list 24 items a year it would make that less tempting. Anyway, all the changes the other day are what got me to finally sign up here.

KrazyIvan
April 10th, 2013, 08:25 AM
I like that idea but I don't use it that much, so it does not affect me. (Classifieds)

On reviews, I post the entire review and one picture. I reserve the rest of my pictures for my blog. I am already in contact with watch_art to help me update my reviews since I have moved the blog.

Sailor Kenshin
April 10th, 2013, 08:28 AM
I'm hoping FPN raises the selling limit for inexpensive items. I like to sell little things in the $3-$20 range for diversion and a bit of pocket money.... buy if I can only list 24 items a year it would make that less tempting. Anyway, all the changes the other day are what got me to finally sign up here.

An d welcome aboard. ^^

jar
April 10th, 2013, 08:58 AM
I like that idea but I don't use it that much, so it does not affect me. (Classifieds)

On reviews, I post the entire review and one picture. I reserve the rest of my pictures for my blog. I am already in contact with watch_art to help me update my reviews since I have moved the blog.

You know a lot of folk won't follow a link to a blog or a video.

KrazyIvan
April 10th, 2013, 09:00 AM
You know a lot of folk won't follow a link to a blog or a video.

Yes, I do. That's why I post the full review and not just a summary like FPN says I can do. :) Most of my traffic comes from other bloggers web sites.

Imahawki
April 10th, 2013, 11:46 AM
I think it really comes down to the fact that FPN is very expensive to run and there are a lot of people that freeload off of it in the classifieds area or by posting links to a "blog" that is tied to a retail venture. Their rules probably have some unintended consequences and I'm guessing the forum is down right now, not for "maintenance" but to slow the onslaught of negative posts while they tweak the rules.

It is probably MUCH more expensive than the average person knows. I run my own hobby forum that is MUCH MUCH smaller than FPN (think 50-60 active users compared to FPN that has several thousand that log in every day) and even it gets expensive. Forums are resource intensive. Every time you open a thread multiple queries are made to the back end database to pull each post, user profile information, avatars, signatures, images, etc.

In my years I've seen many forums go down because they actually got too popular. It gets too expensive for the owner and they either close it, or they start implementing rules that seem crazy to the average user because they don't understand how the forum works on the back and or what the costs are.

I empathize a lot with FPN right now.

That said, what is going on over there is one of the reasons I finally registered here as well.

Sailor Kenshin
April 10th, 2013, 12:13 PM
I have long wanted to operate my own forum. Something like facebook, for friends, but semi-private.

Someone quoted a figure of $25K/year to run and maintain FPN.

Can this be true? If so, that puts forum operation far beyond my means.

jar
April 10th, 2013, 12:15 PM
You can run a forum for considerably less but it would still cost hundreds of dollars a year.

pajaro
April 10th, 2013, 12:30 PM
I strongly suspect that $25K is a good less than the cost of running a forum like FPN. Software licensing could be more than that.

That said, If I wanted to sell off my collection in their classifieds, it would take a long time in their classifieds, so I got the impression they were trying to gaff a lot of members for the price of "premium" memberships.

jbb
April 10th, 2013, 12:51 PM
A typical selling fee (like at Etsy.com for example) is 3% so $90.00 per year at FPN works out to $3000.00 per year in sales. The $180.00 membership is for $6000.00 in sales. Granted Esty also has a 20¢ listing fee -- but they have millions of members too. Anyway after doing the math the fees seem high at FPN and they're in advance of any sales.

KrazyIvan
April 10th, 2013, 01:10 PM
I think a off the top per sale fee when a transaction is completed would be more feasible and acceptable to board members. They do have to contend with the board software which is probably not that flexible when it comes to modifications. I never used IP.Board so I am not real sure. I have used VBulletin and phpBB (moderator and admin). Of the two phpBB is open source and you could get into the inner workings pretty easily. I do not know if the sales and a per transaction fee would be enough to pay the bills.

@Sailor - running your own board can be free, especially if your audience is small. I used to run one for our gaming clan and never paid a dime. Search for "free forum hosting" and several services should come up. You can make it as public or private as you want. You will have to contend with advertising for a free board. Most of them run on phpBB forum software.

Sailor Kenshin
April 10th, 2013, 01:12 PM
What about comparing to fleabay?

Sailor Kenshin
April 10th, 2013, 01:20 PM
I think a off the top per sale fee when a transaction is completed would be more feasible and acceptable to board members. They do have to contend with the board software which is probably not that flexible when it comes to modifications. I never used IP.Board so I am not real sure. I have used VBulletin and phpBB (moderator and admin). Of the two phpBB is open source and you could get into the inner workings pretty easily. I do not know if the sales and a per transaction fee would be enough to pay the bills.

@Sailor - running your own board can be free, especially if your audience is small. I used to run one for our gaming clan and never paid a dime. Search for "free forum hosting" and several services should come up. You can make it as public or private as you want. You will have to contend with advertising for a free board. Most of them run on phpBB forum software.

Thanks, KI...I think I should have used the Quote button for my fleabay question.

I'd be willing to pay for my own forum... Just not 25k/year. If I can get free, I can probably get lower cost sans ads. Or could I?

KrazyIvan
April 10th, 2013, 01:35 PM
Thanks, KI...I think I should have used the Quote button for my fleabay question.

I'd be willing to pay for my own forum... Just not 25k/year. If I can get free, I can probably get lower cost sans ads. Or could I?

There are different services and yes, lower cost options are also available but I am not totally up on what is offered these days.

Imahawki
April 10th, 2013, 01:38 PM
If you are serious, PM me and I'll quote you some figures. My forum is larger than "private" or even semi-private but much, much smaller than FPN.

Silent Speaker
April 10th, 2013, 03:19 PM
I think a off the top per sale fee when a transaction is completed would be more feasible and acceptable to board members.


I was wondering why they never did this, and just left the marketplace to be "free" before these changes happened.
I thought that perhaps it would put the forum into a position of responsibility it didn't want nor have to take if something went awry with the transaction. By not charging anyone a commission like ebay and pretty much having the attitude of "you can advertise and trade here freely, but don't expect restitution from us if things go sour" then they could keep the forum out of any legal unpleasantness.

I wonder, if that was the case, how this will be managed in the current system?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
On a related note, has the board been "offline" for everyone today?

Silent Speaker
April 10th, 2013, 03:21 PM
You know a lot of folk won't follow a link to a blog or a video.
Isn't that a sad fact?
It's amazing how lazy people can really be, even when all they have to do is twitch a finger every so often. "Oh a link?!" *sigh

jar
April 10th, 2013, 03:40 PM
Isn't that a sad fact?
It's amazing how lazy people can really be, even when all they have to do is twitch a finger every so often. "Oh a link?!" *sigh

It's not a matter of being lazy, it is that blogs or videos simply bore me.

Sailor Kenshin
April 10th, 2013, 05:26 PM
It's not a matter of being lazy, it is that blogs or videos simply bore me.

Or give you viruses.

jar
April 10th, 2013, 05:59 PM
Or give you viruses.

I'm pretty well protected against viruses, just find blogs and videos a pretty inefficient way to convey information.

manoeuver
April 10th, 2013, 06:19 PM
Isn't that a sad fact?
It's amazing how lazy people can really be, even when all they have to do is twitch a finger every so often. "Oh a link?!" *sighyeah, only the supremely lazy fail to click on every link that presents itself.

I know, I'm a professional link clicker.

earthdawn
April 10th, 2013, 06:40 PM
It's been offline all day now.. I wonder what they could be updating now????

thagbert
April 10th, 2013, 06:51 PM
It's been offline all day now.. I wonder what they could be updating now????

There's been an insurrection! They've been taken over by ball point pen users!

jar
April 10th, 2013, 07:06 PM
Most likely rebuilding the database. It would not surprise me for that to take more than one day.

heraclitus682
April 10th, 2013, 07:46 PM
I'm hoping FPN raises the selling limit for inexpensive items. I like to sell little things in the $3-$20 range for diversion and a bit of pocket money.... buy if I can only list 24 items a year it would make that less tempting. Anyway, all the changes the other day are what got me to finally sign up here.

NOOOOOOO! I love your listings on FPN.

picautomaton
April 10th, 2013, 09:14 PM
I think it is good what FPN is doing. Personally I hate it when small retailers are peddling their wares under the guise of enthusiasm. I overlook links and video reviews as they are lazy posts. I'm ok with the changes as long as I can have my odd chirp now and then. FPN has become rather tame now days and you actually can not express yourself freely so what the heck, moderators are in power mode.

fountainpenkid
April 11th, 2013, 03:32 PM
I think it is good what FPN is doing. Personally I hate it when small retailers are peddling their wares under the guise of enthusiasm. I overlook links and video reviews as they are lazy posts. I'm ok with the changes as long as I can have my odd chirp now and then. FPN has become rather tame now days and you actually can not express yourself freely so what the heck, moderators are in power mode.

This power mode is the problem.

tandaina
April 11th, 2013, 03:50 PM
Eh, either way the whole thing has left a bad taste in my mouth. I've posted alternatives, experiences with other forums who implemented the same rules. And apparently I made someone mad. But instead of starting a private conversation with me I just got my posting rights revoked. No warning, not so much as a message after posting lots of reviews and help, and repair examples. So umm. Hi y'all!

Sailor Kenshin
April 11th, 2013, 04:21 PM
Eh, either way the whole thing has left a bad taste in my mouth. I've posted alternatives, experiences with other forums who implemented the same rules. And apparently I made someone mad. But instead of starting a private conversation with me I just got my posting rights revoked. No warning, not so much as a message after posting lots of reviews and help, and repair examples. So umm. Hi y'all!

You're kidding. Please tell me you're kidding.

I always enjoyed your posts so much! Well, welcome aboard here.

jbb
April 11th, 2013, 04:46 PM
I politely questioned some of the new policy and have been banned from posting on FPN without any warning from the moderators. At least two other members who stuck up for me have also had their privileges limited. I'd tell you to go read the topic for yourself but they've deleted all my posts for the last couple of weeks

Sailor Kenshin
April 11th, 2013, 04:57 PM
I politely questioned some of the new policy and have been banned from posting on FPN without any warning from the moderators. At least two other members who stuck up for me have also had their privileges limited. I'd tell you to go read the topic for yourself but they've deleted all my posts for the last couple of weeks

I read that thread and those posts earlier and STILL can't believe people got the ax without warning. I mean, I can believe it...I just don't like it. Even the most repressive forum I post on hands out warnings and citations like Halloween candy before they ax you.

PS: got the awesome red-lined onionskin paper today!

reprieve
April 11th, 2013, 05:40 PM
I was banned also, I think, without warning. I don't yet know whether or not it's temporary. I have asked Admin and one of the moderators but have not yet received a response. I'm very sad and disappointed. I didn't think any of my posts were negative or broke any rules.

Jon Szanto
April 11th, 2013, 05:51 PM
Eh, either way the whole thing has left a bad taste in my mouth. I've posted alternatives, experiences with other forums who implemented the same rules. And apparently I made someone mad. But instead of starting a private conversation with me I just got my posting rights revoked. No warning, not so much as a message after posting lots of reviews and help, and repair examples. So umm. Hi y'all!
Ok, this is just nuts. You are one of the most positive and benign individuals, and they choose to censor YOU? Completely lousy.

tandaina
April 11th, 2013, 05:59 PM
Sailor, not kidding, and not only did they remove my posts with alternative suggestions but even things like the leather midori cover review I posted!

That's what has stunned me.

AltecGreen
April 11th, 2013, 06:11 PM
jbb, tandaina, and reprieve, I'm sorry to hear about what happened on FPN.


Unfortunately, this kind of stuff happens far too often on FPN. It just goes unnoticed by the general population. Contact me back channel if you want more information. I'm not familiar enough with the leanings of FPGeeks to have such discussions in the open here. Alternatively, come over to the Fountain Pen Board. There are a couple of threads that talk about some of the issues.

fountainpenkid
April 11th, 2013, 06:12 PM
Ok, this is just nuts. You are one of the most positive and benign individuals, and they choose to censor YOU? Completely lousy.

I'm very surprised as well!

sloegin
April 11th, 2013, 06:22 PM
I'm very sorry if my muckraking is the reason for anyone's ban.

Steph
April 11th, 2013, 06:54 PM
Wow! This willingness to revoke privileges and or ban members without notice is truly distressing.

david i
April 11th, 2013, 07:06 PM
Hi Guys,

This is old news for FPN. They truly will never forget me, as I gave them an unforgettable good-bye (story for another day). You should have more fun here. Too, if you have a particular interest in old pens, do drop by FPnuts.com (Fountainpenboard.com), where old pens tend to be our focus and where nearly no moderation is present. FPN never held particular respect for its members, and was run like a cranky corporation going way back. Just look at all the "rules" references on the front page. Invite your friends instead to play in places that are more about the pens and people.

regards

David

david i
April 11th, 2013, 07:14 PM
I think it really comes down to the fact that FPN is very expensive to run and there are a lot of people that freeload off of it in the classifieds


While Fountain Pen Board is much smaller regarding post count than FPN, I note that it costs all of $200/year to run. I would take big claims with a grain of salt. Too a good pen board designed for fun and enjoyment of members, would not view the "taking advantage" of a sales forum as "freeloading". Rather, a good pen board would be happy that an active trading site could be created for our pen friends to use.

regards

david

woosang
April 11th, 2013, 07:17 PM
I can't download videos on a country Internet, it takes too much bandwidth. It's not being lazy or anything it just takes too long and too much data.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

KrazyIvan
April 11th, 2013, 07:22 PM
I am reading this and just:jaw: I am reluctant to even post over there now. The admins here are not in the habit of banning people or deleting threads unless there is a real problem. It's in the rules.

79spitfire
April 11th, 2013, 08:44 PM
I am reading this and just:jaw: I am reluctant to even post over there now. The admins here are not in the habit of banning people or deleting threads unless there is a real problem. It's in the rules.

+1, I can see where some of the posts might have been a bit aggravating to a mod, but banning??? That's just a bit over the top.:shocked:

tandaina
April 11th, 2013, 09:24 PM
Hi Guys,

This is old news for FPN. They truly will never forget me, as I gave them an unforgettable good-bye (story for another day). You should have more fun here. Too, if you have a particular interest in old pens, do drop by FPnuts.com (Fountainpenboard.com), where old pens tend to be our focus and where nearly no moderation is present. FPN never held particular respect for its members, and was run like a cranky corporation going way back. Just look at all the "rules" references on the front page. Invite your friends instead to play in places that are more about the pens and people.

regards

David

I am an old pen fan, specifically WWII and 50s era German piston fillers. I've made an account under my real name (Josephine) and look forward to having a bit of fun once I'm approved! :)

david i
April 11th, 2013, 09:28 PM
Josephine, you are cleared to post. While I am partial to FBP, I also like quite well FPgeeks. There is plenty of room out there for good pen discussion, in setting less judgemental than FPN.

regards

david

gweddig
April 11th, 2013, 09:35 PM
Thanks to the hubbub I have registered here as well. I want to have my bases covered... I was thinking we might post a note of support for the banned in our FPN status. See what happens.

Roger3
April 12th, 2013, 12:57 AM
I have to concur with you that FPN is concerned about the increased commercialization of the site. This is not a perceived trend, the number of posts in "classified" section clearly exceeds posts in other forums, and recent change is second such change (that I'm aware of) to limit sellers from dominating the site. I believe that the volunteers who administer FPN are moving to limit professional sellers, some of whom are located on a popular auction site, and receive some of professionals' profits. This seems an equitable approach as sellers do not pay any fees to FPN as they would for the use of other sites.
KI, maybe you should approach the Administrators about that as their wording could do with some clarification. You are not selling stationery but sharing knowledge which I assume is the whole point of the FPN & FPG forums.

I find FPN very sloooooooow on any PC or iPad which limits my enthusiasm for visiting.

I think I can sort of see the Admin's reasoning behind these new rules. They seem to have become concerned about a perceived trend towards commercialisation away from a community forum.
Also their ruling on appraisals indicates there were some complaints about that aspect as well. There appears to have been a resurgence of interest in stationery and fountain pens in particular which is going to attract purely business orientated individuals who are trying to use these sites as free advertising after all they have a ready made audience of potential buyers.

Sailor Kenshin
April 12th, 2013, 05:55 AM
I was banned also, I think, without warning. I don't yet know whether or not it's temporary. I have asked Admin and one of the moderators but have not yet received a response. I'm very sad and disappointed. I didn't think any of my posts were negative or broke any rules.

I'm stunned.

This is just plain WRONG.

When I first came aboard FPN things were not like this. Not at all. It was smaller, people seemed friendly and so willing to help a newbie that the pay-it-forward motif has stayed with me until today.

Something bad is going on, but I have no idea what or how, much less why.

reprieve
April 12th, 2013, 06:49 AM
Although I was told that my suspension is probably temporary, I still cannot post, nor have I been given an explanation or told which rule(s) I supposedly broke. :(

Sailor Kenshin
April 12th, 2013, 07:14 AM
Still not good. I know of no other forum where they shoot first and ask questions later.

KrazyIvan
April 12th, 2013, 09:32 AM
I can understand wanting to limit/control the commercialization of the board. If it helps to pay the bills, that's fine with me.

I am concerned about limiting those folks, like myself, that have no commercial intent (this looks to be resolved now, blog links allowed in signatures as long as not commercial) or the low volume sellers that have more volume than the current limits. That's where the percentage off the top works better because:

1. It is not an upfront fee.
2. Taking the percentage off the top makes it so that the fee is almost not felt since it comes right out of the payment received.

Then again, the seller accounts do not affect me. I have placed two classified adds on that board since 2010 and I did not even sell my items there. One sold here and the other is pending expiration in the classifieds in a few days. I won't be re-listing there.

When you just start pushing the ban button like Kim Jong Un playing his X-box fantasy games, it starts to get a bit crazy. I saw where admin seemed to have lost his temper and by the forums own rules should have deleted his own posts. (The threads are gone now). Yes, a bit concerning indeed.

I am very turned off by these turn of events. My posts there will definitely be limited. I might be wrong but I think I understand why there is such a large subscriber base but not as large of a participant base, relatively speaking. The long list of rules make it a minefield and a headache to manage a post.

I just looked at my post count here, and post count on FPN. While I have been a member here for just over a year and on FPN since 2010, my count here is much higher. Hmmmm. Any correlation? Maybe.

jbb
April 12th, 2013, 10:23 AM
Reprieve, You were being very kind to me yesterday when you stuck up for me on FPN. I really appreciated it!!!! I now know of yet another member banned because of that post. We are The Band of the Banned :crazy_pilot: ....and the champions my friend.....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLclgfaC5io

Sailor Kenshin
April 12th, 2013, 10:39 AM
Still can't fathom it. :(

recluse
April 12th, 2013, 01:09 PM
Frankly, I am surprised that the idea about the percentage is so popular. No money flows through FPN and, therefore, it's close to impossible to enforce any financial regulation. Moreover, from the start they were concerned not about "financial abuse" but rather "informational abuse", for example, when FPN is used as a free advertisement space. Therefore, all they could implement is an informational regulation. Different models could be used, for instance, among widely known, pay per show/click. This is where software limitations kick in.

The easiest way, I believe, has turned out to be to introduce wider system of posting rights and make donations obligatory for access to some posting privileges. This is also not an optimal system, since, most likely such privileges are worked on on the case-by-case basis: there must be a person who explicitly clicks some check boxes. Luckily it's only a few dozens accounts and it can be done by hands. If the number of holders of premium accounts would go up to a few hundreds, problems would start to flow like there's no tomorrow. This shows that there is no "commercialization trend": from currently implemented model to a real commercial venue there's a gap, which would require immense efforts to fill. Basically it would be easier to do it from scratch.

Clearly, any model would either hurt some people or render itself useless. Since the second option is unacceptable they had to hurt someone. I, personally, think they didn't handle the transition well. Probably because they failed to realize that the transition itself is a problem in itself worth special attention. In fact, I hope that this is the reason. What we had on FPN is an example how totalitarian models appear naturally. When the problem appears to be ungraspable the easiest way to solve it is voluntaristic. And it's not seldom that in this case the hell breaks in, which indeed happened in miniature. This is sad.

Murfie
April 12th, 2013, 07:34 PM
Anyway, all the changes the other day are what got me to finally sign up here.
And I've just joined you for the very same reasons.

lowks
April 12th, 2013, 08:52 PM
I also really miss the pen exchange in FPN. I mean you can still do it but it's sort of like a work around in the sales ads. I just think creating an 'ad' for a pen you are going to exchange is against the spirit of the whole thing.

Sailor Kenshin
April 13th, 2013, 05:20 AM
I also really miss the pen exchange in FPN. I mean you can still do it but it's sort of like a work around in the sales ads. I just think creating an 'ad' for a pen you are going to exchange is against the spirit of the whole thing.

Yup.

I don't even want to get into the number of pens I gave away on FPN. And within a week of my joining someone gsve me a full bottle of Noodler's Lermontov without my even asking.

Waaaay different there now.

jor412
April 13th, 2013, 05:56 AM
Sorry to hear about all the banning. That rather sucks. I think FPN is great for the sheer amount of information that can be found there, not to mention the various professional and amateur experts on pen repair and pen collecting, many of whom are quite generous with their knowledge. But it's good that we have alternatives like fpgeeks that have different "cultures". fpgeeks has been consistently welcoming & helpful and well, the level of activity is something I can keep up with (when my workload is reasonable!)

lowks
April 13th, 2013, 09:17 PM
Yes. One of my daily writer until today (MB 146 with Oblique Medium), I did not pay a single cent for and was gotten via an exchange on FPN. That pen is special to me because of that.

Sailor Kenshin
April 14th, 2013, 06:41 AM
Who actually OWNS FPN, or is that a secret?

AltecGreen
April 14th, 2013, 10:57 AM
It has been hard to determine who actually owns FPN. It is in fact a secret.

We have speculated on this in the past at various Pen Posses. When FPN was formed there were a core group of original admins. Presumably, one or more owned FPN although it is possible the owner remained hidden. Over the years there have been power struggles behind the scenes. Since I've been on FPN, you've seen Kurt (aka Titivillus) kicked off and he was a mod and there at the founding. He's still bitter about the whole thing. Later another mod (I'm not going to name this one for specific reasons) also parted ways. We guessed that he tried a power play and lost. I have no love lost for that individual. Over the last four years, admins like Elaine and Ruiadhri have become less prominent on FPN at least visibly.

If I had to guess, I would say Wim is the current owner of FPN. He appears to be the last of the original admins. A small detail escaped those on FPN and here, but Hugh on FPB astutely noticed that FPN has been incorporated in the Netherlands. This certainly suggest that Wim has partial or total ownership of FPN.

jor412
April 14th, 2013, 12:33 PM
To me, FPN is a free service. I'm grateful for that service; and to some degree, since it's free, I have to accept the service as it's offered, unless I'm wiling to pay for the extras. I can see where the policies inadvertently ran over other people. That does suck. I wish everyone well just the same. We have options :)

PSmith
April 14th, 2013, 01:12 PM
Based on external observation of the generated content and traffic, I’m not really surprised that FPN is slow. However, there seem to be some obvious improvements that could be implemented at zero cost.

• The amount –about 30%- of inline CSS in each and every single page is simply nauseating. Moving it to an separate, cached, file should significantly reduce server load.
• Expires headers could be added on static content to allow client side caching. Although FPN uses ETags, thus making cache validation possible, this still generates many, albeit small, requests per page.
• Javascript files can be consolidated, minified and gzipped. At least they're not all inline as well.
• Apache is apparently used to serve everything. An efficient reverse proxy server could be installed to cache static content on the server and reduce load on the main http server.
• Completely replacing Apache with Nginx could significantly reduce load on the server and improve performance. This is possibly non-trivial since Invision considers Apache to be the bee's knees.
• In light of the above, it might be worthwhile to profile the database as well. Poorly constructed or missing indexes can reduce performance by several orders of magnitude.

I find it surprising that FPN has chosen to spend a significant amount of money on hardware and bandwidth without considering the efficiency of the current configuration. Note that it almost certainly has to be hardware and bandwidth since the software is either free (Linux, Apache, PHP, MySQL) or low cost (IP.Board). The classifieds seem to be a custom development, but should not cost an arm and a leg.



A small detail escaped those on FPN and here, but Hugh on FPB astutely noticed that FPN has been incorporated in the Netherlands. This certainly suggest that Wim has partial or total ownership of FPN.


There is indeed a Dutch company called "Fountain Pen Network B.V.". Publicly available information (essentially name and address) can be viewed here (https://www.kvk.nl/handelsregister/zoekenframeset.asp?zk=0&url=https://server.db.kvk.nl/TST-BIN/FU/TSWS001@?BUTT=569326260000). The FPN MD also has a Linkedin profile (http://nl.linkedin.com/in/wimgeeraets).

sloegin
April 14th, 2013, 01:45 PM
Based on external observation of the generated content and traffic, I’m not really surprised that FPN is slow. However, there seem to be some obvious improvements that could be implemented at zero cost.

• The amount –about 30%- of inline CSS in each and every single page is simply nauseating. Moving it to an separate, cached, file should significantly reduce server load.
• Expires headers could be added on static content to allow client side caching. Although FPN uses ETags, thus making cache validation possible, this still generates many, albeit small, requests per page.
• Javascript files can be consolidated, minified and gzipped. At least they're not all inline as well.
• Apache is apparently used to serve everything. An efficient reverse proxy server could be installed to cache static content on the server and reduce load on the main http server.
• Completely replacing Apache with Nginx could significantly reduce load on the server and improve performance. This is possibly non-trivial since Invision considers Apache to be the bee's knees.
• In light of the above, it might be worthwhile to profile the database as well. Poorly constructed or missing indexes can reduce performance by several orders of magnitude.

I find it surprising that FPN has chosen to spend a significant amount of money on hardware and bandwidth without considering the efficiency of the current configuration. Note that it almost certainly has to be hardware and bandwidth since the software is either free (Linux, Apache, PHP, MySQL) or low cost (IP.Board). The classifieds seem to be a custom development, but should not cost an arm and a leg.

It has been pointed out to them. Here (http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?/topic/208192-enormous-inline-css-and-javascript/). They seem to not have the knowledge to know how to fix it or ask for help, or don't care.

AltecGreen
April 14th, 2013, 01:47 PM
Based on external observation of the generated content and traffic, I’m not really surprised that FPN is slow. However, there seem to be some obvious improvements that could be implemented at zero cost.

• The amount –about 30%- of inline CSS in each and every single page is simply nauseating. Moving it to an separate, cached, file should significantly reduce server load.
• Expires headers could be added on static content to allow client side caching. Although FPN uses ETags, thus making cache validation possible, this still generates many, albeit small, requests per page.
• Javascript files can be consolidated, minified and gzipped. At least they're not all inline as well.
• Apache is apparently used to serve everything. An efficient reverse proxy server could be installed to cache static content on the server and reduce load on the main http server.
• Completely replacing Apache with Nginx could significantly reduce load on the server and improve performance. This is possibly non-trivial since Invision considers Apache to be the bee's knees.
• In light of the above, it might be worthwhile to profile the database as well. Poorly constructed or missing indexes can reduce performance by several orders of magnitude.

I find it surprising that FPN has chosen to spend a significant amount of money on hardware and bandwidth without considering the efficiency of the current configuration. Note that it almost certainly has to be hardware and bandwidth since the software is either free (Linux, Apache, PHP, MySQL) or low cost (IP.Board). The classifieds seem to be a custom development, but should not cost an arm and a leg.


Many of these ideas have been brought forth in the past by FPN members. Several FPN members who do IT for a living have offered their services for free in the past. In all cases that I know of, their offer was essentially ignored.

There are other mysteries about the way FPN is run from the IT side. A few years ago there were reports they had obtained their own server. So this current switch seems odd.

reprieve
April 14th, 2013, 02:50 PM
Well. I'm glad the incident helped me find FPGeeks. It's pretty nice here.

Kudzu
April 15th, 2013, 01:42 AM
I'm with you, jbb! I just signed up here, too.

Kudzu
April 15th, 2013, 01:48 AM
Not only love jbb's listings, but when her items arrive at your doorstep, it's like getting a birthday present, they are so beautifully packaged and wrapped inside. Glad to have found you here, jbb!

lowks
April 15th, 2013, 03:43 AM
Who actually OWNS FPN, or is that a secret?
On that note too ... who owns fpgeeks ? :)

Bogon07
April 15th, 2013, 03:58 AM
On that note too ... who owns fpgeeks ? :)
Eric & Dan ?

Sailor Kenshin
April 15th, 2013, 05:44 AM
Not only love jbb's listings, but when her items arrive at your doorstep, it's like getting a birthday present, they are so beautifully packaged and wrapped inside. Glad to have found you here, jbb!

I can attest to that!

fiberdrunk
April 15th, 2013, 10:58 AM
I can attest to that!

Me, too! I'm always calling jbb "my fairy godmother" (from Penn Valley, no less!) because the stuff she sells works so well for me! Every pen freak should have a PEN Valley Fairy Godmother!

mmahany
April 15th, 2013, 03:14 PM
I'm another guy who came over from the FPN. I really liked that place and posted somewhat regularly, but apparently they didn't like my opinions or suggestions. My posting privileges were removed several days ago after an administrator specifically asked for my personal answer to his question about the new rules. I typed up a lengthy 2 page long post and sent it. No personal attacks, no name calling, and nothing that could even be considered breaking the rules. Just legitimate suggestions and recommendations from someone who has a great deal of understanding about how to run a small business.

They're kicking out people like me who don't want to pay the fee. I suggested that they offer a ~$30 membership for private collectors who sell a fair amount of pens like I do, but that was quickly ignored. I was labelled a "High Volume" trader for the two classifieds listings I had made in 2013.

I mentioned this over there, but it feels an awful lot like that guy who just lost his job and is now hitting up all his friends for money. When you don't pay, you're no longer considered a friend.

I feel that this is the beginning of the end for the Fountain Pen...uh...Country Club

hmabells
April 15th, 2013, 04:05 PM
I hadn't been on FPN for ages and got quite a shock when I logged in at the weekend. I haven't looked too closely at the changes but my initial reaction was that I'm not sure if I'll be logging on much anymore which is a shame as there were some great people who were very generous with their time and knowledge.

Sailor Kenshin
April 15th, 2013, 05:13 PM
I'm another guy who came over from the FPN. I really liked that place and posted somewhat regularly, but apparently they didn't like my opinions or suggestions. My posting privileges were removed several days ago after an administrator specifically asked for my personal answer to his question about the new rules. I typed up a lengthy 2 page long post and sent it. No personal attacks, no name calling, and nothing that could even be considered breaking the rules. Just legitimate suggestions and recommendations from someone who has a great deal of understanding about how to run a small business.

They're kicking out people like me who don't want to pay the fee. I suggested that they offer a ~$30 membership for private collectors who sell a fair amount of pens like I do, but that was quickly ignored. I was labelled a "High Volume" trader for the two classifieds listings I had made in 2013.

I mentioned this over there, but it feels an awful lot like that guy who just lost his job and is now hitting up all his friends for money. When you don't pay, you're no longer considered a friend.

I feel that this is the beginning of the end for the Fountain Pen...uh...Country Club

I wouldn't give them one penny after this debacle.

tandaina
April 15th, 2013, 05:18 PM
Eep! So before I was just on probation, my posts had vanished and all my posts had to be approved by a mod. I guess coming here moved me into the other category. I now can't even access the forum. The really annoying thing? I can't access my profile other than to log in and so I can't DELETE my profile either.

Do I get a medal? First time I've ever been banned from ANYWHERE. This lawful good cleric is sorta feeling all roguish right now! (And my geek is showing, sorry!)

Sailor Kenshin
April 15th, 2013, 05:34 PM
Unheard of, even in my worst wild-westish, bare-knuckles-bench-clearin' brawls forums.

jbb
April 15th, 2013, 06:00 PM
Do I get a medal? First time I've ever been banned from ANYWHERE. This lawful good cleric is sorta feeling all roguish right now! (And my geek is showing, sorry!)

I'm pretty sure this is the point where we take you out drinking and then you show back up in black leather & stilettos sporting a Snorkel with long-range ink capacity.

Jon Szanto
April 15th, 2013, 06:15 PM
Eep! So before I was just on probation, my posts had vanished and all my posts had to be approved by a mod. I guess coming here moved me into the other category. I now can't even access the forum. The really annoying thing? I can't access my profile other than to log in and so I can't DELETE my profile either.

Do I get a medal? First time I've ever been banned from ANYWHERE. This lawful good cleric is sorta feeling all roguish right now! (And my geek is showing, sorry!)
My friend, I was pretty sure I had it in the back of my mind that you were involved with the clergy in some way. Even setting that aside, I'm more familiar with your posting style and content than the other people (who are also probably all good people as well), and I just can't even believe it. I've been very close to just blowing up and getting banned myself, but it is just ABSURD and disgusting they way they have treated you and a number of others.

And we all know, there isn't much that can be done. I am, however - unless you feel I should not - make some people aware of this post I am replying to. As many people need to realize what has gone down, the entirely capricious nature of their actions, and how unfair, unfortunate, and completely anti-social the behavior is.

I wish you the best, and having someone like you around here makes me more interested in getting more involved in the FPG forums.

But more on that later...

tandaina
April 15th, 2013, 08:37 PM
I'm pretty sure this is the point where we take you out drinking and then you show back up in black leather & stilettos sporting a Snorkel with long-range ink capacity.

BWHAHAHAH! The Snorkel is the perfect touch! :P

tandaina
April 15th, 2013, 08:41 PM
My friend, I was pretty sure I had it in the back of my mind that you were involved with the clergy in some way. Even setting that aside, I'm more familiar with your posting style and content than the other people (who are also probably all good people as well), and I just can't even believe it. I've been very close to just blowing up and getting banned myself, but it is just ABSURD and disgusting they way they have treated you and a number of others.

And we all know, there isn't much that can be done. I am, however - unless you feel I should not - make some people aware of this post I am replying to. As many people need to realize what has gone down, the entirely capricious nature of their actions, and how unfair, unfortunate, and completely anti-social the behavior is.

I wish you the best, and having someone like you around here makes me more interested in getting more involved in the FPG forums.

But more on that later...

Jon I appreciate your kind words! But I wouldn't want anyone else to get into a hassle on my account. I said my piece, it wasn't well received, I ended up elsewhere. Since FPN has an owner that person can do what he choses with his forum. I was rather under the impression that it was a club with distributed membership and control and on that I was obviously wrong. There are other places to play and lots of familiar faces around so I'm pretty content here and on the fountain pen board.

I've got a friend getting started in fountain pens and having some issues. I sent her off a Lamy (not my pearl, already getting attached to my pretty pearl...) and a bottle of ink and a link here. So let's just be a great helpful place to learn when she shows up!

PointyThings
April 20th, 2013, 10:05 AM
Chiming in late, here. Work has kept me out of the loop of the recent changes at FPN and I'm getting caught up.

First, IMHO, most of the rationale provided by the powers that be at FPN about covering expenses is pure BS.

As David Isaacson said earlier in this thread, the cost of software (IP.Board) and hosting is only a few hundred per year for a board like his (FPB or mine at FPC). Sure, FPN has many more members, but hosting simply is NOT that expensive. And the classifieds software they use is a plugin purchased for about $35 per year.

As for the antagonism toward sellers, this has been an ongoing trend from FPN for years. The FPN owners (Wim, whoever) are quick to accuse sellers of using FPN to line their own pockets with profits (yeah, like selling fountain pens has made us sellers rich).

However, they neglect to recognize that the people posting reviews, answering newbie questions, sharing knowledge and research, etc., are providing an enormously valuable asset to FPN for frakkin FREE! Does FPN compensate them for this content?

NO.

Sure, some FPN members might have ulterior motives with their posts on FPN, like generating traffic to their own websites and blogs. But this is the cost of doing business, and FPN is far ahead of the game in benefiting from the gigabytes of free content provided by their users.

Plus, even their classifieds provide content that attracts new members.

I can attest to that. My site is nothing but classifieds. The classifieds themselves are usually the entry pages by which new members find my website.

I can go on, but I've said enough. I expect to be banned from FPN soon, if not already. Wim took great offense when I launched FPC and accused me of "betraying" FPN by not coming to him first with my grievances about the changes to their classifieds nearly two years ago.

But nothing I say here is going to change the minds of the diehard FPN faithful who understand neither business nor the realities of the online world.

I suspect their draconian policies will cost them a few members, but there are plenty more willing to drink the ink-colored Koolaid.

Sailor Kenshin
April 20th, 2013, 10:41 AM
FPN was down yet again, all day yesterday, with what was called at various time a spam attack and DDos.... Makes you wonder.

KrazyIvan
April 20th, 2013, 11:02 AM
DDoS would not have let you get to that message page. I saw it too. Maybe it was over by then.

PointyThings
April 20th, 2013, 11:24 AM
There's been a wave of brute-force hacker attacks on Wordpress websites in recent weeks and hackers are constantly trying to break into forums. This kind of activity can all but shut a site down.

I installed heavy duty anti-spammer software on my board to nearly eliminate spammer registrations AND I blocked traffic from China, Russia, the Ukraine, and several other countries that are hotbeds of hacker activity.

That helped.

inkypinky
April 21st, 2013, 10:43 AM
I, too, am one of the disaffected.

I had a great relationship with many members over there, and one friendship in particular became very close. But then, last year, this person suddenly refused to talk to me at all. They blocked my PMs and wouldn't answer if I texted or emailed or called (we'd exchanged phone numbers, we were such good friends). So, I stopped trying. I am no stalker! I still have no idea why. I can only assume they were told something about me they disliked but didn't feel the need to check with me if it was true! Shortly after this they became a moderator. Since then several other people I used to exchange PMs/postcards/letters/emails with just began to distance themselves. No reason was given. Frienships just petered out. Now I know this happens all the time in life. But it seemed all too coincidental.

Then, I noticed that this person had become 'friends' with many of the friends I had. I realised a smear campaign was probably going on somehow, though I will never really know how or from what source. I don't even know whether, as a mod, that person could have read my PMs (I never spoke of the hurt caused by this original friendship going sour) and somehow warned others off me.

It really put me off forums for a while, it all seemed too 'school playground'. I even lost interest in FPs too. Then I found this place, and have been cautiously lurking ever since. I would not have divulged this except that i think it adds to the theory about power struggles and stick wielding...

In general, FPN used to a tight knit, fun loving community catering for all opinions and personalities, now it's gotten too big for that, and seems to have aspirations to become the next google or facebook in terms of corporate image, popularity and money spinning. It also feels as though they're trying to hound out the little guys and make it exclusive, appealing only to those who can afford to spend megabucks on pens (and subscriptions?).

Just my humble opinion.
BTW inkypinky is not my FPN tag. I decided to reinvent myself :-)

AltecGreen
April 21st, 2013, 11:03 AM
I don't even know whether, as a mod, that person could have read my PMs (I never spoke of the hurt caused by this original friendship going sour) and somehow wrned other off me.


Yes mods and admins can read PMs. They also pay attention to what is said on other forums. Members have been banned for things they posted on other sites and venues (e.g. FaceBook).





In general, FPN used to a tight knit, fun loving community catering for all opinions and personalities, now it's gotten too big for that, and seems to have aspirations to become the next google or facebook in terms of popularity and money spinning. It also feels as though they're trying to hound out the little guys and make it exclusive and appeal only to those who can afford to spend megabucks on pens.
Just my humble opinion.

That's why the SF Pen Posse spawned our own FaceBook group. I'm still surprised many of us have not been banned for the stuff we say on FaceBook.

The guys who spend lots of money on pens (vintage in particular) have been leaving FPN too. FPN is not conducive to detailed scholarly discussions of pens. Many headed over to David Issacson's site.

Sailor Kenshin
April 21st, 2013, 11:24 AM
Geesh! I was a mod and admin on many a forum. We couldn't read member PMs nor would we want to. If someone smeared a mod or admin they did it in the open and we resonded in the open.

This is just childish.

Seems we never really leave kindergarten. X____X

david i
April 21st, 2013, 01:41 PM
SNIP
The guys who spend lots of money on pens (vintage in particular) have been leaving FPN too. FPN is not conducive to detailed scholarly discussions of pens. Many headed over to David Issacson's site.


And people are welcome. I don't want to post much about our Board here on someone else's Board, save in low key fashion to note that there are places to play... and places that can grow... when the main playground is toxic and pushy for cash. Fountain Pen Network seems pretty toxic these days.

At FPB, we have very little (really very little) moderation and no thread deletions. FBG seems pretty mellow too. Since I joined here recently mainly to provide caution about a sales situation that had provoked caution at FPB, it has become clear to me that there is a nice cadre of collectors here. If possibly I find the time, perhaps I'll start posting here one of my "vintage pen eye candy" threads once a week or so, an interesting and appealing old pen designed to provoke some curiosity about old pens. You'd be amazed how many modern pens owe so much to old pens.

inkypinky
April 21st, 2013, 03:30 PM
Yes mods and admins can read PMs. They also pay attention to what is said on other forums. Members have been banned for things they posted on other sites and venues (e.g. FaceBook).





That's why the SF Pen Posse spawned our own FaceBook group. I'm still surprised many of us have not been banned for the stuff we say on FaceBook.

The guys who spend lots of money on pens (vintage in particular) have been leaving FPN too. FPN is not conducive to detailed scholarly discussions of pens. Many headed over to David Issacson's site.

Ah! Then what I feared is probably true. What a shame. I'm interested in FPB too, but am not really a vintage collector. Still, perhaps it is time to explore another FP avenue...

Pinkys.Brain
April 22nd, 2013, 07:29 AM
Reading PMs. If that's true: that's two Sasquatch thumbs down! Unbelievable...never heard of something like that before.

KrazyIvan
April 22nd, 2013, 08:51 AM
It's true. It can be done.

heraclitus682
April 22nd, 2013, 09:09 AM
Well...I will probably never p.m. again. Just go straight to email.

jor412
April 22nd, 2013, 09:13 AM
Keeping track of what people say on other forums and on Facebook seems to me to be a waste of time. And reading PMs? If it's true that it's being done that's pretty much a google-esque like invasion of privacy.

OakIris
April 22nd, 2013, 09:18 AM
I read this thread with great sadness. Although I registered here on FP Geeks a while ago, I have been spending my time on FPN; I believe this is my first post here.

I am not going to give up on FPN - yet. As others have mentioned, there are still many good people there as well as a tremendous amount of useful, important information - but I am appalled that people like jbb have been banned, or that ANYONE has been banned for expressing an opinion about the new rules, etc. FPN said they welcomed and wanted feedback.....apparently they only wanted feedback if it was congratulatory, not feedback containing constructive criticism. As for the admins taking the time to read PMs....that seems not only a waste of time but rather odd to me. Just by reading its label, I think people have an expectation that their Private Messages are to be just that, private. :( Is there actual proof that the admins are engaging in this? I still have PMs from jbb in my messenger archive on FPN so I guess if they did read PMs at least they didn't purge all of the conversations with banned members.

I am hoping things settle down over there, but this arbitrary, unannounced banning of long time participants who have contributed so much to what I THOUGHT was a community, does not bode well. And to see that the FPN admin is so petty as to "seek and destroy" all of the posts and threads of those that they decided to ban, is even worse - like the Nazis and other dictators burning books to keep knowledge away from their citizens, or like someone throwing the baby out with the bathwater, or..... I am sure you get the drift of where my cliches are heading..... :P

I have met some very generous folks on FPN who have been helpful, kind, fun to talk with, fun to learn from. I have been the recipient of unsolicited gifts of pens and inks and paper and..... I hate to think it is all going downhill, but I think it is time for me to explore what FP Geeks and The Fountain Pen Board (I love vintage pens!) have to offer instead.

Holly

david i
April 22nd, 2013, 09:48 AM
"I am hoping things settle down over there, but this arbitrary, unannounced banning of long time participants who have contributed so much to what I THOUGHT was a community, does not bode well. And to see that the FPN admin is so petty as to "

At risk of being a bit cynical (though wryly cynical I hope), most settings such as FPN offer a facade of "community". Community notions encourage participation, which most Boards of course desire. That of course does not mean people don't have a legit sense of connection (as much as the internet permits, what with no face to face communication). It just means that this should not be confused for each Board ultimately being a private setting, the Community elements existing at the whim (psychosis?) of the owner. And I can say that, as I am an owner ;)

The best settings, in my view, are those in which the internet-community elements are run by people who are not particularly controlling and by people who appreciate those who participate.

regards

david

KrazyIvan
April 22nd, 2013, 09:54 AM
I think I read it in the terms of service when signing up. I believe it does state somewhere that PM's can be read. I got the impression that it would be done in special situations to settle disputes. I may be totally wrong on that. I cannot find a copy of the TOS anywhere on FPN. One must assume that any internet communication is not private. The communications sit on a server somewhere and someone has to have access to that server. Unless you are encrypting your messages, never assume that your communications are private. They are readable.

While we are on the topic of security, most forums do not use https protocol for login and FPN is no different. Your password is readable to those with know how. Never use a password on a forum that you use for any financial institution or account of a sensitive nature. Make it specific to the forum and do not reuse that password somewhere else. Change your password every 90-180 days.

thagbert
April 22nd, 2013, 10:37 AM
While we are on the topic of security, most forums do not use https protocol for login and FPN is no different. Your password is readable to those with know how. Never use a password on a forum that you use for any financial institution or account of a sensitive nature. Make it specific to the forum and do not reuse that password somewhere else. Change your password every 90-180 days.

Good advice! Everyone should take notice of this.

PointyThings
April 22nd, 2013, 12:20 PM
I think I read it in the terms of service when signing up.


Be nice to be able to access a TOS for FPN, plus Privacy Policy and other FTC-required website legal documents -- especially now that FPN is charging money for features.

dannzeman
April 22nd, 2013, 12:32 PM
On that note too ... who owns fpgeeks ? :)
Eric & Dan ?
St. Nibbius, actually.

fountainpenkid
April 22nd, 2013, 01:37 PM
On that note too ... who owns fpgeeks ? :)
Eric & Dan ?
St. Nibbius, actually.

Obviously someone didn't take their vow of poverty ;) ;)

dannzeman
April 22nd, 2013, 02:14 PM
And people are welcome. I don't want to post much about our Board here on someone else's Board, save in low key fashion to note that there are places to play... and places that can grow... when the main playground is toxic and pushy for cash. Fountain Pen Network seems pretty toxic these days.

At FPB, we have very little (really very little) moderation and no thread deletions. FBG seems pretty mellow too. Since I joined here recently mainly to provide caution about a sales situation that had provoked caution at FPB, it has become clear to me that there is a nice cadre of collectors here. If possibly I find the time, perhaps I'll start posting here one of my "vintage pen eye candy" threads once a week or so, an interesting and appealing old pen designed to provoke some curiosity about old pens. You'd be amazed how many modern pens owe so much to old pens.

David, feel free to post about FPB all you like. It's a resource for vintage pens that's unmatched elsewhere online and the more people that know about it the better.

david i
April 22nd, 2013, 04:59 PM
"David, feel free to post about FPB all you like. It's a resource for vintage pens that's unmatched elsewhere online and the more people that know about it the better. "

Thanks. That is very gracious :)

regards

david

Sailor Kenshin
April 23rd, 2013, 11:18 AM
As of this moment, the FPN site has been porn-jacked. Steer well clear of it until this resolves.

Jon Szanto
April 23rd, 2013, 11:36 AM
And I thought it was just me - hit me this morning. When it rains, it pours.

Sailor Kenshin
April 23rd, 2013, 12:36 PM
I went there from an ipad. I guess regular pc users might want to run extra virus scans.

david i
April 23rd, 2013, 02:34 PM
I swear I didn't do it...

PointyThings
April 23rd, 2013, 02:53 PM
I swear I didn't do it...


Spreading virus-laden porn where ever you go :wink:

david i
April 23rd, 2013, 02:57 PM
I swear I didn't do it...


Spreading virus-laden porn where ever you go :wink:


Hey, that's mean. I've had my shots...

-d

PointyThings
April 23rd, 2013, 03:01 PM
I swear I didn't do it...


Spreading virus-laden porn where ever you go :wink:


Hey, that's mean. I've had my shots...

-d


OK, so NON-virus-laden porn...

Pensfan
April 23rd, 2013, 03:08 PM
and it's down... again

:(

OakIris
April 23rd, 2013, 03:18 PM
I know! Claiming another attack....maybe the anti-banning beetles are chewing and clawing their way into the fortress to teach admin the error of their ways!

Holly

KrazyIvan
April 23rd, 2013, 03:19 PM
I was on this morning looking around and did not notice anything odd. I must have left before it started. Have not been back all day.

Manny
April 23rd, 2013, 03:34 PM
http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m496/gclef1114/0423131702-1_zps8ce7b9b0.jpg

Tellin' you all right now...it wasn't me.

fountainpenkid
April 23rd, 2013, 05:28 PM
http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m496/gclef1114/0423131702-1_zps8ce7b9b0.jpg

Tellin' you all right now...it wasn't me.

I know...it is quite funny to be honest. (however annoying it may be for those who are using the network)

earthdawn
April 23rd, 2013, 07:51 PM
David, feel free to post about FPB all you like. It's a resource for vintage pens that's unmatched elsewhere online and the more people that know about it the better.

Pure class.... thats awesome to see...

Sailor Kenshin
April 24th, 2013, 05:39 AM
Is it back? I'm afraid to look.

writingrav
April 24th, 2013, 05:44 AM
I have never been a fan of FPN. From the moment I first registered I felt overwhelmed. It felt difficult to navigate and intimidating. I would only very occasionally log on to look for something or just see what was up. Anyway, recently I tried to order a bottle of FPN ink. Followed directions, sent an email with what I wanted etc. That was at least two weeks ago and I've had no response. What's up with that?

Sailor Kenshin
April 24th, 2013, 06:34 AM
Things seemed a bit more relaxed and open when I first joined....now you have to write an ad to GIVE pens away? O_o

KrazyIvan
April 24th, 2013, 08:30 AM
I have never been a fan of FPN. From the moment I first registered I felt overwhelmed. It felt difficult to navigate and intimidating. I would only very occasionally log on to look for something or just see what was up. Anyway, recently I tried to order a bottle of FPN ink. Followed directions, sent an email with what I wanted etc. That was at least two weeks ago and I've had no response. What's up with that?

I sent mine in about a month and a half ago. It was received blank for some reason. ~3 weeks ago I received an email from Wim asking if it was a legitimate order. I corrected it and have not heard anything since.

fountainpenkid
April 24th, 2013, 01:23 PM
...and they're down again...for the 3rd time in the past month.

piscov
April 24th, 2013, 01:35 PM
LOL Bad boy David ;)

piscov
April 24th, 2013, 03:02 PM
...and they're down again...for the 3rd time in the past month.

Do you think it would be fair to offer compensation to premium members on the count of the forum being so many times off line?? ;)

Now seriously, I am starting to think that someone was not happy with the changes and is taking revenge.... Although I don't like the changes, I do not agree with this constant attacks

tandaina
April 24th, 2013, 03:10 PM
Obviously I don't know... But sites that are worth MONEY are more likely to get attacked than those that aren't. Suddenly they've got tons of searchable information about pricy memberships, how much it costs to run the site, etc. That's all a bit ole carrot to some hackers. I have to wonder if that's part of it?

KrazyIvan
April 24th, 2013, 03:13 PM
...and they're down again...for the 3rd time in the past month.

Do you think it would be fair to offer compensation to premium members on the count of the forum being so many times off line?? ;)

Now seriously, I am starting to think that someone was not happy with the changes and is taking revenge.... Although I don't like the changes, I do not agree with this constant attacks

I think their terms on the premium accounts say no refunds period.

I do agree that it is getting a bit much. They really made someone mad. One of the outages last year got me searching for other forums and I came across a thread with someone claiming responsibility for the outage as revenge for being banned. Wonder if I can find that again.

jbb
April 24th, 2013, 03:38 PM
Are we up to frogs or locusts?

AltecGreen
April 24th, 2013, 03:53 PM
I chalk all of the recent outages to the fact that the people running FPN are not as IT savvy as they think they are. I'll wager that they did not set-up their protection from SPAM and attacks properly when they made this recent change which by comments from the admins was associated with a move to an 'expensive' hosting solution. During the last major FPN update (i.e. when they did away with the original buy and sell forums), there was a period (a few months) afterwards where FPN was down several times due to some IT problems as well as attacks. The same pattern is playing out right now.

PointyThings
April 24th, 2013, 04:29 PM
Forums are under siege constantly by hackers and spammers. The anti-spam plugins and smart security practices help significantly.

But if someone is determined to break your site, they can do it.

PointyThings
April 24th, 2013, 04:34 PM
Also, hackers share info about forums on their own hacker forums.

jor412
April 24th, 2013, 05:13 PM
I think the attacks are a combination of several factors - what tandaina, AltecGreen, & PointyThings said and probably someone pissed off enough to do the hacking or to get a friend to do the hacking.

david i
April 24th, 2013, 09:00 PM
LOL Bad boy David ;)

Wuzn't me, man... :pound:

Maja
April 24th, 2013, 09:26 PM
Good grief, you're still talking about FPN??
The lady (and gentlemen) doth protest too much, methinks....
:rofl:

david i
April 24th, 2013, 09:27 PM
Good grief, you're still talking about FPN??
The lady (and gentlemen) doth protest too much, methinks....
:rofl:

This *is* after all, a chat board. Gossip of da day... n' all dat...

woosang
April 25th, 2013, 04:05 AM
I have never been a fan of FPN. From the moment I first registered I felt overwhelmed. It felt difficult to navigate and intimidating. I would only very occasionally log on to look for something or just see what was up. Anyway, recently I tried to order a bottle of FPN ink. Followed directions, sent an email with what I wanted etc. That was at least two weeks ago and I've had no response. What's up with that?

Same. No response

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk 2

HughC
April 25th, 2013, 05:29 AM
Can't add much but Wim seems a lot "heavier handed" now than when I "gracefully" departed ( little option...). I do note the discussion about PMs, my "dear friend" Wim made it clear that in his mind a PM was a "private message" and as such was between the participants, I quote Wim : "I've noticed you've copied the content of my messages here to your own board for discussion. I don't know if you realized, but these messages are PMs, or Private Messages. Posting these in a public forum is a breach of privacy and confidentiality, and reason enough for a ban." Of course I replied "I am subject to no privacy clause (or obligation) in regard to the FPN. Your messages to me and how I choose to deal with them is at my discretion. I am well versed in privacy issues."
So they have rules for everyone else but themselves!!

Regards
Hugh

Edit to add: I was quoted somewhere above as saying the FPN was incorporated in the Netherlands, I don't recall finding this out if the reference was to me.

AltecGreen
April 25th, 2013, 08:35 AM
Edit to add: I was quoted somewhere above as saying the FPN was incorporated in the Netherlands, I don't recall finding this out if the reference was to me.

The reference was referring to you and it was very careful reading on your part.

dowdyism
April 26th, 2013, 12:19 AM
I hit FPN a couple of hours ago and got the porn redirect ... at work.

P.S. Hey Woosang! :)

picautomaton
April 26th, 2013, 12:59 AM
I just tried to access FPN and it went to a white page with a url address thingy - oops!

Who was so pissed off to destroy the site?

jor412
April 26th, 2013, 01:37 AM
Good thing I don't get any redirects to anything other than FPN's maintenance page.

recluse
April 26th, 2013, 01:54 AM
I hit FPN a couple of hours ago and got the porn redirect ... at work.

P.S. Hey Woosang! :)

FPN is down for about a day. I'd be worrying if I'd get unwelcome redirects from a basically defunct site.

wimg
April 26th, 2013, 04:39 AM
As FPN we don't normally comment on anything said about FPN on any other site.

So let me just explain the current status.

First of all, FPN isn't and wasn't hacked. However, with the redirects experienced by several people, and FPN being a family-oriented board, we could not do anything but react and bring the board off-line and investigate very, very thoroughly. That is exactly what we did. It is very clear that FPN itself is clean, squeaky clean, as is its server, software and any files on the system.

What appears to be the case is what is called DNS-spoofing. A compromised or hacked DNS server somewhere redirects FPN traffic to other sites than FPN. It doesn't happen all the time, and not to everybody, but it is worrying nonetheless. With the aid of the server hosting team, the software support team, and a bunch of helpful fans, we are working towards a solution.

It isn't simple, and it takes time to do.

In short, we are working on it, at different levels. That's all there is to it.

Regards, Wim
FPN Admin

HughC
April 26th, 2013, 05:04 AM
As FPN we don't normally comment on anything said about FPN on any other site.

So let me just explain the current status.

First of all, FPN isn't and wasn't hacked. However, with the redirects experienced by several people, and FPN being a family-oriented board, we could not do anything but react and bring the board off-line and investigate very, very thoroughly. That is exactly what we did. It is very clear that FPN itself is clean, squeaky clean, as is its server, software and any files on the system.

What appears to be the case is what is called DNS-spoofing. A compromised or hacked DNS server somewhere redirects FPN traffic to other sites than FPN. It doesn't happen all the time, and not to everybody, but it is worrying nonetheless. With the aid of the server hosting team, the software support team, and a bunch of helpful fans, we are working towards a solution.

It isn't simple, and it takes time to do.

In short, we are working on it, at different levels. That's all there is to it.

Regards, Wim
FPN Admin

So now you turn up. How about answering some of the "other" questions and queries about the way you "operate" ( that's a polite way of putting it) in a forum where you don't just delete what you don't like? Your opening line is a really gutless way to avoid open debate, try being a decent person for once and you might find some people would respect that. The way you've treated some people is just pathetic ( and sad), simple as that. I do hope you solve the issues as you have a worthwhile and generally well liked forum , pity I can't say that about you though.

Warm Regard
Hugh

david i
April 26th, 2013, 05:23 AM
As FPN we don't normally comment on anything said about FPN on any other site.

So let me just explain the current status.

First of all, FPN isn't and wasn't hacked. However, with the redirects experienced by several people, and FPN being a family-oriented board, we could not do anything but react and bring the board off-line and investigate very, very thoroughly. That is exactly what we did. It is very clear that FPN itself is clean, squeaky clean, as is its server, software and any files on the system.

What appears to be the case is what is called DNS-spoofing. A compromised or hacked DNS server somewhere redirects FPN traffic to other sites than FPN. It doesn't happen all the time, and not to everybody, but it is worrying nonetheless. With the aid of the server hosting team, the software support team, and a bunch of helpful fans, we are working towards a solution.

It isn't simple, and it takes time to do.

In short, we are working on it, at different levels. That's all there is to it.

Regards, Wim
FPN Admin


Hey, bud. I can share some pictures with you, if that will help. Bwhahahaha...

regards

David

woosang
April 26th, 2013, 07:17 AM
P.S. Hey Woosang! :)

Hello, yes?? , :)

ethernautrix
April 26th, 2013, 10:27 AM
So, uh, where do I post about Pen Posses? Geek Groups? Geek Gatherings? Er... Geekerings?

KrazyIvan
April 26th, 2013, 10:32 AM
So, uh, where do I post about Pen Posses? Geek Groups? Geek Gatherings? Er... Geekerings?

Sounds like "Clubs and Shows" forum.

:waves:

dannzeman
April 26th, 2013, 10:36 AM
So, uh, where do I post about Pen Posses? Geek Groups? Geek Gatherings? Er... Geekerings?
Oh, Lisa...
2151 (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/40-Clubs-and-Shows)
Clubs and Shows (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/40-Clubs-and-Shows)

Jon Szanto
April 26th, 2013, 10:51 AM
2151
Hmmm, maybe poorly named. I could see Lisa smacking me over the head with a bat and then flashing people...



;)

Sailor Kenshin
April 26th, 2013, 11:02 AM
Eats, shoots, and leaves? :p

radaddict
April 26th, 2013, 11:35 AM
As FPN we don't normally comment on anything said about FPN on any other site.

So let me just explain the current status.

First of all, FPN isn't and wasn't hacked. However, with the redirects experienced by several people, and FPN being a family-oriented board, we could not do anything but react and bring the board off-line and investigate very, very thoroughly. That is exactly what we did. It is very clear that FPN itself is clean, squeaky clean, as is its server, software and any files on the system.

What appears to be the case is what is called DNS-spoofing. A compromised or hacked DNS server somewhere redirects FPN traffic to other sites than FPN. It doesn't happen all the time, and not to everybody, but it is worrying nonetheless. With the aid of the server hosting team, the software support team, and a bunch of helpful fans, we are working towards a solution.

It isn't simple, and it takes time to do.

In short, we are working on it, at different levels. That's all there is to it.

Regards, Wim
FPN Admin

If the redirects are the result of DNS spoofing, there's not much you can do about it. Further, it's not FPN's responsibility to fix it. If people accessing FPN get redirected to another site, they need to complain to their local service provider, not FPN. Someone complaining to FPN because they got redirected to another web site when they tried to access FPN would be like me complaining to Maxwell House because the sales clerk at my local Wal-Mart told me Maxwell House coffee was on isle 2 when it fact it's on isle 6. You can't fix this problem on your end of the chain. Asking members to clear their local cache (as you've done) can help, but only if the problem has been fixed on the DNS server(s) they access for name resolution. The local cache speeds up name resolution by accessing the DNS details on the local computer rather than having to access the DNS servers every time name resolution was needed. However, the local DNS cache information is only as good as the information it got from the DNS servers to begin with. Cudos perhaps for trying and being responsive to member complaints, but good luck with that.

Hi all. I would have preferred my first post here to have been something about fountain pens, but it is what it is. Wait... I can fix that...

Fountain pens are awesome and I'm happy to be here!:dance3:

southpaw52
April 26th, 2013, 11:36 AM
We have a great forum right here. I see no reason to discuss the issues at FPN.

piscov
April 26th, 2013, 11:49 AM
Agree!!! Its enough... but I can´t help watching... human nature is a strange thing...

tytoalba
April 26th, 2013, 12:23 PM
....

nomadhacker
April 26th, 2013, 12:24 PM
DNS Spoofing wouldn't be redirecting individual pages. It works on DNS lookups, which are at the domain level.

tytoalba
April 26th, 2013, 12:29 PM
thanks for the explanation in non tech language.
I didn't have any of the negative redirects, but then I have fairly tight security, and clean the "machine" obsessively due to past issues. (runs quicker that way too).
Also, Thanks to FPG's for hosting all the extra folks. I've been popping in here for a long time, and enjoy the pleasant atmosphere.

My single pen world grievance is that I work Saturdays and can't watch the Podcasts live. Great Show Guys!!! Great good humor, and quite the polished performances.

oops duplicate post sorry.

markeh
April 26th, 2013, 01:29 PM
In general, the DNS system has some security issues. Nothing to do with any particular web site.

You don't need to use the DNS services provided by your ISP, which can sometimes be less secure. This can be changed in Windows, at the router lever (in your home or business), and probably on a MAC, (though I'm not personally familiar.)

A few free alternatives:

OpenDNS
http://www.opendns.com/business-solutions/premium-dns/benefits/

Norton Connect Safe:

https://dns.norton.com/dnsweb/dnsForHome.do



.

Biber
April 26th, 2013, 01:49 PM
We have a great forum right here. I see no reason to discuss the issues at FPN.

But its so cathartic.

ThriveToScribe
April 26th, 2013, 01:59 PM
Have only been to the site twice, and ages ago. I had trouble following threads but perhaps that was lack of forum experience. At any rate, my husband uses a prop replica forum and their rules are very strict so it does depend on the mods and what their goals are. Sometimes those goals are not compatible with all users. I so enjoy this community and the free exchange of information, reviews, opinions, etc. I have learned so much I don't have a need for another forum right now. But I am a FP simpleton compared to most of you, so I hope you can encourage clarity on their new rules so you can continue to enjoy that community, too.

From a fellow forum simpleton, Tracy, I had the same experience of being overwhelmed by the content. I sort of joined by mistake because (being an uber-Noobie in forums) I thought it was like a "parent company" of FPGeeks. Boy, was I wrong. I feel so comfortable here with you all, it was like I got on the wrong train going over there. Having said that, I did get on the FPInks train to get the three exclusive inks. Using PayPal to pay to an email address directly was new to me, so I kept emailing Win-Admin to see if they got the payment. They were nice about it, seemingly hurried with all the requests, and I finally received them. Then they went offline. Whew! (Longest post I've ever written...so far):faint:

KrazyIvan
April 26th, 2013, 02:46 PM
I can recommend OpenDNS. I use the family/home version of OpenDNS to help secure my home network. It runs on my router (which has Tomato router firmware). I also installed some extra scripts on Tomato for another layer of protection.

wimg
April 26th, 2013, 02:52 PM
Well, we located the cause of the problems, and fixed it with the aid of our registrar.

This means that FPN may be unreachable for up to 24 hours from some parts of the internet. Someone appears to have changed the Domain Name Server registration at the registrar, not in our account itself, and our ip-address was replaced on their servers with someone else's. This means there were two sets of DNS's, each set pointing to different ip-addresses, one correct and one wrong.

That is corrected now, but needs to propagate over the internet first. As mentioned, that takes up to 24 hours.

Regards, Wim
FPN Admin

ethernautrix
April 26th, 2013, 03:01 PM
2151
Hmmm, maybe poorly named. I could see Lisa smacking me over the head with a bat and then flashing people...



;)



Thanks, Dan!

Jon, don't you mean (for the second part) DANCING! like a ballerina!

Jon Szanto
April 26th, 2013, 03:09 PM
Jon, don't you mean (for the second part) DANCING! like a ballerina!
I'll think about it...


2199

HughC
April 26th, 2013, 03:49 PM
Well, we located the cause of the problems, and fixed it with the aid of our registrar.

This means that FPN may be unreachable for up to 24 hours from some parts of the internet. Someone appears to have changed the Domain Name Server registration at the registrar, not in our account itself, and our ip-address was replaced on their servers with someone else's. This means there were two sets of DNS's, each set pointing to different ip-addresses, one correct and one wrong.

That is corrected now, but needs to propagate over the internet first. As mentioned, that takes up to 24 hours.

Regards, Wim
FPN Admin

That's good.Now if you have read this topic you should realise you and your tactics have caused some people feeling very hurt. In a breathtaking display of arrogance you post here and all you want to talk about is "your" FPN ( posting about,say, the FPB on your FPN would probably be deleted...) , there are some other issues you should address as well.

Warm Regards
Hugh

david i
April 26th, 2013, 04:17 PM
Hugh, he can't help himself. But, I know he'll never forget the good-bye I gave him. :)

-d

Newton Pens
April 26th, 2013, 04:28 PM
Cripes David. Are you STILL talking about that?

david i
April 26th, 2013, 04:32 PM
Cripes David. Are you STILL talking about that?

Uhhh... it is the topic of the thread. I always wonder why people join threads to say, "why are people talking about the thread?".

Just one of those quirks I guess.

If anyone who runs this forum prefers we not talk about this subject, I will of course not talk about this subject. Just sayin'... :)

Jimmy James
April 26th, 2013, 05:03 PM
I'll give it to you, Dr. I, you left in memorable fashion.

I have always chalked up the way FPN works to the way the leadership wants it to work. It's not the way any other forum I have participated in works, and it's not what I would call the best way. What's absolutely true is that they have the members and the members are what make for interesting conversation. So far, I have been able to avoid the issues others have had. If I run into issues, I'll cross that bridge at that time. I'm glad this is here (even if I often forget it), and if some day it overtakes FPN, fine by me. By the same token, I've learned so much about pens thanks to FPN. I like the place for that reason alone.

tytoalba
April 26th, 2013, 05:14 PM
Hugh, he can't help himself. But, I know he'll never forget the good-bye I gave him. :)

-d
OK, You win..
have a beer on me.. you're absolutely right, nothing, or very little - lasts forever.

apologies to FPG's for barging into the thread

Phoenix
April 26th, 2013, 05:16 PM
Cripes David. Are you STILL talking about that?

For those members who were suspended for voicing a differing opinion this is a helpful post. I was reading the supposedly offending post before it was taken down on FPN and it was all very civil. The only exception was an unusual outburst from Wim. This entire drama could have easily been avoided but from an objective standpoint it was Wim and not the others who were out of line. Frankly your post here, attacking David, is odd.

Newton Pens
April 26th, 2013, 05:21 PM
sorry.

david i
April 26th, 2013, 05:23 PM
Hugh, he can't help himself. But, I know he'll never forget the good-bye I gave him. :)

-d
OK, You win.. You win every time you bring up the glorious win.. Till your last breath, and after, may your children win every time they recall how you won.
but it's a pyrrhic victory.. at too great a cost. SNIP



I would venture the observation that you are investing yourself too much in unecessarily "deep" analysis.

I'm having fun with the thread. You seem unhappy I am having fun with the thread, and seek "profound" explanations where none, in my view, exist.

I can recognize that and accept it, but wouldn't you be happier working on being... well... happy?

You state you don't engage in negative sparring, yet your last post seems to be... negative sparring ;)

At FPN many indeed have noted there is not the great discussion of old pens that there used to be. There cannot be, given the nature of moderation there.

There seems to be good discussion here, though this board is relatively new. We've had good discussion of Fountain Pen Board, though that too will improve with ever increasing membership.

One cannot expect the volume of conversation present at a board with far more members, but there can be... better... conversation at boards with relatively few members.

If you feel such a loss about FPN's "old pen" chat, then indeed you should join people who play elsewhere. You might be pleasantly surprised.

I've been online in pen chat for fifteen years. I've seen Boards come and go. You would not believe the volume once present at places whose names you now might not even recognize. They were once the standard bearers for internet pen chat. Now they are gone or nearly so. Nothing lasts forever.

So, play at a place that cannot handle folks who know more and have more to give than does its leadership. Or throw yourself into a smaller place (whichever one or more meets your needs, of course) and help build that which you find missing in your old place. It... can be done.

regards

david

Phoenix
April 26th, 2013, 05:30 PM
sorry.

Now we go have a beer. :bump2:

david i
April 26th, 2013, 05:33 PM
I like beer...

Phoenix
April 26th, 2013, 05:40 PM
I like beer...

You come too!

Newton Pens
April 26th, 2013, 05:45 PM
No beer for me. Just coffee please. :)

http://coffeegrinderpress.wordpress.com/552/coffee-mugs-and-containers/

Marsilius
April 26th, 2013, 05:58 PM
Hi all,
I read here a lot but never post, but thought I would pipe in for a couple of thoughts.

1. I never got officially censored on a forum, but that concept has always bothered me. The only thing I could predict anyone doing here that freak me out would be if someone starting a thread about kilts, which in my mind is the group equivalent of hold your breath while saying "la la la la la" and "I can't HEEEAR you." (Of course, it is not only internet forums that have a way of "drumming people out of town" for dissent.)

2. I have enjoyed both FPG and FPB, both in substance and in tolerance. I have been impressed with how accepting David is with people on his forum that might have offended others. I think the beneficial model both forums provide speaks more than any written policy.

3. The line between controlling quality and toleration of difference can be razor fine indeed: once drawn, however, those on either side tend to end up at the opposite ends of an impassibly wide ravine. I remember two profs I had: One wanted students who were always trying new things and being spontaneous, while the other wanted students who could follow rules and do a great technical job. Neither one was necessarily wrong, nor were they always that far apart, but the controversies of small differences often seemed to hinge on that issue of control vs. freedom. (Full disclosure: I tend to fall in the "tolerance" camp.)

Best wishes to all for great ongoing conversations.
Mars

AltecGreen
April 26th, 2013, 06:07 PM
Hi all,
1. I never got officially censored on a forum, but that concept has always bothered me. The only thing I could predict anyone doing here that freak me out would be if someone starting a thread about kilts, which in my mind is the group equivalent of hold your breath while saying "la la la la la" and "I can't HEEEAR you." (Of course, it is not only internet forums that have a way of "drumming people out of town" for dissent.)



Actually you are wrong about the kilts things. It started a few years ago when a member posted on FPN about another pen site. The thread was getting a bit heated very quickly. I guess a fair number of members did not like the fact the person was promoting a 'rival' pen site. Farmboy and a few others threw out the kilts thing as a way to diffuse the thread by steering the thread towards...well kilts. It really was a way to diffuse threads so they don't get taken down. The whole thing caught on and took a life of it's own.

Soon after we had the armadillo thread but that's another story.

Marsilius
April 26th, 2013, 06:11 PM
[/QUOTE]


Actually you are wrong about the kilts things. It started a few years ago when a member posted on FPN about another pen site. The thread was getting a bit heated very quickly. I guess a fair number of members did not like the fact the person was promoting a 'rival' pen site. Farmboy and a few others threw out the kilts thing as a way to diffuse the thread by steering the thread towards...well kilts. It really was a way to diffuse threads so they don't get taken down. The whole thing caught on and took a life of it's own.

Soon after we had the armadillo thread but that's another story.[/QUOTE]

Point taken, and thank you for that. I saw it only later, and it seemed like something that happened whenever things got too serious, so I perceived it as described: a way of shutting down a talk. But now you see how sensitive I might be!

D Armstrong
April 26th, 2013, 07:35 PM
Hi All,

I'm finding this thread quite interesting, for a number of reasons.

I have been contributing primarily at FPN for several years now. I have always been curious about the whole David Isaacson thing, and have always been a bit disturbed by the fact that all references to what had happened had been purged, and that everyone was afraid to even mention it, at risk of being likewise purged. Rather Stalinesque, by any measure.

That being said, I have found FPN to be a great source of information, and I was always happy to add to the pool. We run a (very) small business in pens and FP-friendly stationery, but I have always tried to keep my postings non-commercial in nature. When I have tried selling, I have found FPN-based commerce to be highly over-rated: too much time spent on listings that either generate no interest, or get buried within hours.

Increasingly, I found postings on FPN to be a bit same-old same-old, to coin a phrase. Recently I have not spent much time there, choosing to spend time with real-life people in our area (Toronto), where there is both interest and demand for pens and pen repair.

However, I do think that the current developments and issues there can provide us with some valuable insight. First, some observations:


1) FPN has recently become a commercial entity in and of itself.

A) It has been incorporated, which means that it now must both grow, and provide dividends.

B) It is selling it's own branded merchandise, including:


i) pens


ii) ink


iii) other merch (http://www.cafepress.com/fountainpennetwork), like pins, ball caps, coffee cups, etc.

C) It is now charging substantially for advertising rights.

2) There is an history of in-fighting among the moderators/founders.

3) Draconian measures are taken by a moderator or moderators to cover up any dissent. As a result, a certain level of paranoia is always present in the community.

4) According to the present person in control (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/1981-What-is-up-with-FPN?p=21840&viewfull=1#post21840), the recent technical difficulties are a result of someone with administrative rights in accessing the domain registration. In other words, someone among the high-level mods at FPN has recently become so upset that they have tried to destroy it by means of extreme link-hijacking. This indicates a level of animosity and dysfunction that is extreme, desperate, and without hope of reconciliation.



In analyzing these observations, I have come to the following conclusion:


In the past year or so, FPN has become systematically commercial, in violation of the previous vehement intentions to the contrary. Considering the huge size of the pool of members, this commercial activity is potentially worth many thousands of dollars, over the extended lifetime of the company. The incorporation means that someone is legally controlling this income. The obvious conclusion is, again more simply put (by my 20-year-old son): mod war over the cash.


In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with commerce. In fact, I think that a balanced commercial presence is what has kept FPN so healthy for so long; there are no free lunches, and that includes top-quality input on fountain pens. But when someone starts being commercial, while loudly stating that they are not interested in making money, I start checking that my wallet is still where I left it.

I am sad to see what appears to be the implosion of what has been a good resource. But as David I put it, boards come and go. And in-fighting over the control of people's voices and cash is something we can find throughout humanity's history. So we shouldn't be surprised that it is still around, and that it can destroy what it touches. And from the sounds of things, this has been coming for a long time.

It will be interesting to see if my FPN account suffers any consequences from this posting. In signing off, however, I should point out that there has always been a quotation under my FPN avatar; the same one I use in write-testing all of the pens I rebuild. It comes from Junius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junius), an 18th century English writer who was addressing exactly the same issues that seem to be plaguing FPN:

"The subject who is truly loyal to the Chief Magistrate will neither recommend, nor submit to, arbitrary measures."

Roughly explained, it means: even though you may have power over people, it doesn't mean that they just have to shut up and take it. In fact, they may just have a duty to ignore what you want them to do.

I love that quote.

PS
JBB: I am truly sorry at your distress. I always appreciated your postings on FPN, and was struck by your generosity and decency. The problem is not with you. Stick to your guns, and simply take them where they are appreciated.

Jimmy James
April 26th, 2013, 07:49 PM
Well for what it's worth, what I recall about Dr. I is that there was a nasty spat over the color of a Snorkel on the Sheaffer board and soon thereafter his very nice photos were replaced by some not very nice photos. I hope I don't get banned here for saying that (or at FPN!).

dannzeman
April 26th, 2013, 07:52 PM
Well for what it's worth, what I recall about Dr. I is that there was a nasty spat over the color of a Snorkel on the Sheaffer board and soon thereafter his very nice photos were replaced by some not very nice photos. I hope I don't get banned here for saying that (or at FPN!).

You'd have to say a lot worse than that to get banned here.

Jimmy James
April 26th, 2013, 07:59 PM
Well for what it's worth, what I recall about Dr. I is that there was a nasty spat over the color of a Snorkel on the Sheaffer board and soon thereafter his very nice photos were replaced by some not very nice photos. I hope I don't get banned here for saying that (or at FPN!).

You'd have to say a lot worse than that to get banned here.

What if I called a Vermillion Snorkel Fiesta Red? ;)

thagbert
April 26th, 2013, 08:13 PM
Yesterday, I had a redirect to a NSFW page. But they said they weren't hacked! Semantics!


This thread reminds me of a black and white movie I saw featuring an angry mob with torches and pitch forks!

Newton Pens
April 26th, 2013, 08:16 PM
I have been contributing primarily at FPN for several years now. I have always been curious about the whole David Isaacson thing, and have always been a bit disturbed by the fact that all references to what had happened had been purged, and that everyone was afraid to even mention it, at risk of being likewise purged. Rather Stalinesque, by any measure.

With regards to David, Jimmy mentioned above what happened. Making the site very family friendly has always been important, and when pictures of pens got replaced with pictures of soft-porn (from what I've been told by people who saw it) they got pretty upset. Which is understandable.




B) It is selling it's own branded merchandise, including:


i) pens


FPN has sold limited editions twice I think, to help raise money to pay for hosting costs, which are not cheap. The site gets something like 300,000 unique visitors a day. That sucks a lot of bandwidth.




ii) ink

FPN has been selling ink for years to help pay for hosting costs. This is not a recent thing.





iii) other merch (http://www.cafepress.com/fountainpennetwork), like pins, ball caps, coffee cups, etc.

Again - for years. The cafe press store was set up years ago. Only recently was a button linking to it placed in clear view. Nothing new.




C) It is now charging substantially for advertising rights.

A lot of forums charge for advertising and for access to their own sales forums/boards. What's the big deal here? I myself pay for advertising at a couple of places so I can bring attention to my pens and scholarship. If I make money advertising on somebody else's site, I'm glad to pay what is basically an insignificant amount of money to do so.

AltecGreen
April 26th, 2013, 08:32 PM
With regards to David, Jimmy mentioned above what happened. Making the site very family friendly has always been important, and when pictures of pens got replaced with pictures of soft-porn (from what I've been told by people who saw it) they got pretty upset. Which is understandable.


I think some details are missing here in your explanation.

Newton Pens
April 26th, 2013, 08:38 PM
Probably. You could enlighten us all if you want, though.

david i
April 26th, 2013, 08:53 PM
Verily, I seem to have become a legend. Charming ;)

I will recount the tale of my departure from FPN, including the story of the PG-13 rated cover shot from a tattoo art (newstand release, iirc) magazine that has since become the stuff of pendom mythology, and which made for the exit that FPN will never forget.

But, not really time tonight. I have company. We're watching modern Looney Tunes. Tomorrow evening I think. Break out your single malt and your Sosa #60 cigars. We will reconvene... cue the foreboding music...

In the meanwhile, those who seek serious chat among those who don't take *themselves* too seriously and who like old pens in particular, are welcome to drop by FPnuts/Fountain Pen Board. And, I will try to add my touch of vintage pen knowledge in my own Hack Amateur Newbie fashion (the story of "hack amateur newbie" also a tale for another day), here at FPG

regards

-david

D Armstrong
April 26th, 2013, 08:54 PM
Oho! Now the pieces fall into place. You see, people on FPN are openly scared of even speaking the Isaacson name, for fear of being banned. Now, I agree that any porn-image swapping is dirty pool. But a Stalinesque culture is worse.

And commerce is good! I do it myself. But it is an increasing presence on FPN. If it was just there, like all the other forums, that would be fine. But it is in plain sight, while being trumpeted as being a negative influence. And while there is talk of covering hosting fees, there is never any evidence of the actual numbers. If each member bought just one $5 badge, once, how much money would someone have in a bank account? $200,000? That's not small change, for a very small transaction. If that is how much it takes to run the board, fine. But until I see the numbers, I reserve both judgement and the right to be cynical.

My Junius quote has been there since I created my account, and is something I honestly love. I didn't just trot it out for this occasion. Life is too short to live it in fear of bullies. Or to waste it on negative relationships. When I read JBB's post, my heart went out to her, because she didn't deserve what she has gotten.

My post is mostly just observations and logic. I don't like heavy-handed moderation tactics, and I say that as someone who has moderated forums for years, and dealt with my fair share of loonies in doing so. If people are scared, they won't stay. And if they smell something fishy, they won't stay. And if the site is down because of a mod war they won't stay. And if they are flashed by porn they won't stay (I was yesterday, at about 4 pm. And It was a link from within the temporary place-holder page, which calls into question the whole DNS-server thing, because that is a top-level re-direction. But I digress.)

Shawn, I know that you have invested a lot in FPN over the years, and I have always appreciated your postings and enthusiastic input. And I was glad to see you made a moderator because of your positive personality. I do hope that FPN can get itself together and be a happy place again. But you have to be realistic.

PS David I., you are a very bad boy!

david i
April 26th, 2013, 08:59 PM
SNIP

PS David I., you are a very bad boy!

Isn't that from Abbot and Costello? ;)

And btw. No porn was involved. I really and with no joke do promise that. Ahhh... the power of myth.

regards

-d

david i
April 26th, 2013, 09:02 PM
Oho! Now the pieces fall into place. You see, people on FPN are openly scared of even speaking the Isaacson name, for fear of being banned. SNIP !

One might say that my name cannot be spoken (call me Snowball, if ya' know yer classic literature) there because I am the one fellow who treated FPN as FPN is used to treating its members. FPN continues to have a tough time absorbing that message. All the better.

-d

AltecGreen
April 26th, 2013, 09:06 PM
Probably. You could enlighten us all if you want, though.

To first order, what is missing from your explanation is why.

When FPN banned David, he didn't have a problem with it. However, he did request that FPN take down all of the content that he provided. David (I'm so use to calling him the Dark Lord) had provided lots of informative content with both information and more importantly pictures. I personally didn't find his request outrageous. If you ban someone, I don't think you should be able to continue to reap the benefits of their content. The admins of FPN said no and David did what he did.

It would have been more honorable for the admins at FPN to just take down the content as requested. Wim certainly didn't have any problems deleting posts of several of the people who were banned including posts that had nothing to do with threads about the system changes.

david i
April 26th, 2013, 09:27 PM
Probably. You could enlighten us all if you want, though.

To first order, what is missing from your explanation is why.

When FPN banned David, he didn't have a problem with it. However, he did request that FPN take down all of the content that he provided. David (I'm so use to calling him the Dark Lord) had provided lots of informative content with both information and more importantly pictures. I personally didn't find his request outrageous. If you ban someone, I don't think you should be able to continue to reap the benefits of their content. The admins of FPN said no and David did what he did.

It would have been more honorable for the admins at FPN to just take down the content as requested. Wim certainly didn't have any problems deleting posts of several of the people who were banned including posts that had nothing to do with threads about the system changes.

Geez, maybe I won't have to tell my tale; it will come out in dribs and drabs from pen friends 'n' such... ;)

But, I will note, the final good-bye act was by me. I was officially an active member when I reclaimed my personal material from FPN. But, otherwise there is much that is correct in Altec's tale.

regards

david

AltecGreen
April 26th, 2013, 09:33 PM
[QUOTE=watchart;22146]Probably. You could enlighten us all if you want, though.


Geez, maybe I won't have to tell my tale; it will come out in dribs and drabs from pen friends 'n' such... ;)

But, I will note, the final good-bye act was by me. I was officially an active member when I reclaimed my personal material from FPN. But, otherwise there is much that is correct in Altec's tale.

regards

david

This is how legends grow.

Actually, it is good that the details of the story come out into the open. It's not like a secret since a lot of people know bits and pieces.


There is more to the story because as I remember there was a particular thread that was the breaking point.

reprieve
April 26th, 2013, 09:45 PM
But let us be generous. We will not shoot them. We will not pour salt water into them, nor bury them in bedbugs, nor bridle them up into a "swan dive," nor keep them on sleepless "stand-up" for a week, nor kick them with jackboots, nor beat them with rubber truncheons, nor squeeze their skulls with iron rings, nor push them into a cell so that they lie atop one another like pieces of baggage--we will not do any of the things they did!

HughC
April 26th, 2013, 09:51 PM
With regards to David, Jimmy mentioned above what happened. Making the site very family friendly has always been important, and when pictures of pens got replaced with pictures of soft-porn (from what I've been told by people who saw it) they got pretty upset. Which is understandable.




B) It is selling it's own branded merchandise, including:


i) pens


FPN has sold limited editions twice I think, to help raise money to pay for hosting costs, which are not cheap. The site gets something like 300,000 unique visitors a day. That sucks a lot of bandwidth.




ii) ink

FPN has been selling ink for years to help pay for hosting costs. This is not a recent thing.





iii) other merch (http://www.cafepress.com/fountainpennetwork), like pins, ball caps, coffee cups, etc.

Again - for years. The cafe press store was set up years ago. Only recently was a button linking to it placed in clear view. Nothing new.




C) It is now charging substantially for advertising rights.

A lot of forums charge for advertising and for access to their own sales forums/boards. What's the big deal here? I myself pay for advertising at a couple of places so I can bring attention to my pens and scholarship. If I make money advertising on somebody else's site, I'm glad to pay what is basically an insignificant amount of money to do so.

The incident with David was unfortunate, still the FPN ended up a lot poorer for it and it's never fully recovered (what I saw looked a lot better than most pens btw).

I, personally, have no issues with the owner/s either trying to cover costs or make a profit from a successful forum. If you read above what Wim has done to other people who did not deserve it then it's near impossible to defend the way FPN is run. As a mod over there I'm sure your aware of the disgraceful way the CS forum was run for many years, serious vintage CS collectors shun it and again Wim is the prime cause.

While FPN is a popular and well loved site , family friendly etc. that should not translate into a Kim Jong Um style of leadership yet that's exactly what Wim has created. As a mod I ,too, think you are one of those that does a very good job as do a number of others, that is at least a positive for FPN.

Do also note that my dear friend Wim is more than happy to front up here and talk about "his" board yet too gutless to address simple issues of common decency and respect to others, perhaps you would like to comment on the events that led up to at least 3 people being shown the door. I accept you may feel unable to comment.

A serious change of attitude at FPN is required to restore at least partial faith in the way it's run. Until that occurs there's little point in defending something that is now fundamentally flawed, even Wim won't do that.

Regards
Hugh

david i
April 26th, 2013, 10:09 PM
With regards to David, Jimmy mentioned above what happened. Making the site very family friendly has always been important, and when pictures of pens got replaced with pictures of soft-porn (from what I've been told by people who saw it) they got pretty upset. Which is understandable.


How did Dr. McCoy say it so well...

" I see the Klingon's lips move, but no sound emerges..."

Go figure...

david i
April 26th, 2013, 10:19 PM
I strongly suspect that $25K is a good less than the cost of running a forum like FPN. Software licensing could be more than that.

That said, If I wanted to sell off my collection in their classifieds, it would take a long time in their classifieds, so I got the impression they were trying to gaff a lot of members for the price of "premium" memberships.

IPB full package costs a couple-few hundred dollars... once. And full access to upgrades runs $25-50 twice a year. Software licensing does not cost much.

regards

david

dannzeman
April 26th, 2013, 10:22 PM
http://i43.tinypic.com/3586k2u.jpg

AltecGreen
April 26th, 2013, 10:23 PM
http://i43.tinypic.com/3586k2u.jpg

You need to try that with truffle salt. It's a Pen Posse favorite.

tytoalba
April 26th, 2013, 10:33 PM
Curious as to whether any of the people who were temporarily suspended, actually saw the group designation "Away" = Banned upon their accounts?
Last week, as I was also urging the 20-under sales designation be considered, their accounts All read Gold = active accounts, but no posts = temporary suspended.
Obviously we can't check until FPN resumes. But it was the apparent overstatement of the situation, when still in gold status, during an unusually hectic massive change that caused me to take a neutral stand, though I intensely inquired, especially supportive in one situation. Maybe the more accurate claims ought to have been temporarily suspended, rather than banned without notice? I also saw the people involved visiting FPN, though they were not posting, which also suggested they were not actually banned, merely suspended for their private matters. I just hope this all resolves, positively, and soon. Best regards to All.

79spitfire
April 26th, 2013, 11:22 PM
More drama than an afternoon soap...

Interesting about David I. I have browsed his sites and FPnuts several times, good stuff there!

Jon Szanto
April 26th, 2013, 11:26 PM
Curious as to whether any of the people who were temporarily suspended, actually saw the group designation "Away" = Banned upon their accounts?
I'll speak to that directly: I was upset with the way a few people were treated and summarily shut down. At around the same time, attempting to write to one of them, I noticed the "Away" group designation. I posted an inquiry in a public part of the forum, asking what specifically that meant.

Thread lasted a couple of hours, then disappeared, and I was admonished in private. It was clear that "Away" meant "Banned", but I was to not discuss it in public. It was at that point that I sent a few notes to friends and mods that I've become acquaintances of, indicating that my future relationship with FPN was questionable, due to the way some very good people were treated.

I'm personally sorry to be that way, as I've learned a lot from my two years at FPN. I don't have nearly the pen knowledge that many others have, and I don't walk away casually or cavalierly. Nonetheless, as meaningless as it may be in the big scheme of things, how people treat each other is important to me, and I'd prefer to not further the popularity or usefulness of an arena like that with my contributions, small as they may be. It may be a gesture that amounts to peeing yourself in a dark suit, but one has to have some principles to live by. Shared respect is one of mine.

I think it is high time for a dram of Ardbeg. I bid you all a good evening.

KrazyIvan
April 26th, 2013, 11:33 PM
Okay, now that I know the story of he who shall not be named, :p it makes sense. The linking of photos via an outside service being not what FPN admins want makes much more sense now.

79spitfire
April 26th, 2013, 11:41 PM
Okay, now that I know the story of he who shall not be named, :p it makes sense. The linking of photos via an outside service being not what FPN admins want makes much more sense now.

Yes it does, I will have to remember NOT to upload any content that I want to keep control of to FPN.

david i
April 26th, 2013, 11:43 PM
Is FPN now providing free photo storage, as per the 25MB per customer (and extra space in common albums) offered at FPB? Last i played, FPN offered uploads only to posts, with a few MB cap that quickly was filled. Perhaps times have changed.

regards

david

whych
April 27th, 2013, 03:00 AM
Is FPN now providing free photo storage, as per the 25MB per customer (and extra space in common albums) offered at FPB? Last i played, FPN offered uploads only to posts, with a few MB cap that quickly was filled. Perhaps times have changed.

If you look at the ipboard vendor site (the guys who supply the software) you will find that one of their extras is an 'upload/storage' module to allow members to post images, etc.
Just one of the extras you can get after you have paid for your $175 licence.

Having read most of this thread, it seems that somewhere along the line FPN are either not being entirely honest in their explanations as to why the board has been taken down, or have been misled.

The nameserver bit does not ring true for the following reason:
nameserver software on any major 'worth it's salt' provider is inherently secure, and if it was open to being hacked, you would have a fair chunk of the Internet community working on a fix for it.
In a nutshell:
What the nameserver does is provide an ip address for the site that you ar wanting to access, so that when I want to go to www.somesite.com it will provide the correct ip address for that site.
Every site on the Internet then has to have a UNIQUE ip address for it to work.
The original spec for nameservers require that you have 2 nameservers and that these should be placed in separate locations to provide for redundancy in case one goes down.

This means that if anything was changed, it was changed with the nameservers and this can ONLY BE DONE BY A PERSON WHO HAS ADMIN ACCESS rights to the account.
If this is so, then there is more in-fighting going on at FPN than their posts are admitting and perhaps they should rather have put up a message to say the site was having admin problems and would be back shortly instead of all the gobbledygook doublespeak they have posted.

The latest posting that there will be a 24 hour delay for the name to be propogated through the nameservers is only true if the site has been moved to a new hosting service and has been given a new ip address.

Also, the way the nameservers have been set up at present for the site will never work because you cannot use your own domain name for DNS address which they have at present (their nameservers are ns1.fountainpen... and ns2.fountain...) which is why I get a 'site not found error' when I try to access it.

By trying to hide the truth of the matter just means that they end up alienating the loyal contributers and users and when the truth does emerge it could do more damage than if they were just open about it at the outset. (To take and example from US histiry, if Nixon had admitted everything at the start, it would probably have all just blown over instead of ... .)

Hopefully they all pull themselves together and get the board back up and running or they will lose more people.
I see many FPN users have already made a move to an alternative site for their daily fix of penmania.

tytoalba
April 27th, 2013, 05:13 AM
Curious as to whether any of the people who were temporarily suspended, actually saw the group designation "Away" = Banned upon their accounts?
I'll speak to that directly: I was upset with the way a few people were treated and summarily shut down. At around the same time, attempting to write to one of them, I noticed the "Away" group designation. I posted an inquiry in a public part of the forum, asking what specifically that meant.

Thread lasted a couple of hours, then disappeared, and I was admonished in private. It was clear that "Away" meant "Banned", but I was to not discuss it in public. SNIP


Thanks for sharing this... Something I did not see.

nomadhacker
April 27th, 2013, 07:31 AM
DNS is *not* the problem. Whych is right in that something sounds off about the explanation. (though you can use your domain for name servers. ie ns1.mydomain.com-- you actually register the ips of the nameservers with upstream servers and register the names that way. It's not actually clearly explained anywhere, but I've done it myself)

The thing is, DNS resolves the top level domain (and sub domains). The DNS system points the domain to its controlling server. The server parses out and handles the full URL.

In other words if it were DNS, it would be the WHOLE domain. ALL pages. Not just some URLs. The front page of the site would not be any different than other pages. The whole site would be getting redirected until the problem was resolved.

Jimmy James
April 27th, 2013, 08:28 AM
I think we all know it's not as simple as DNS. Whatever it is, I think we're getting on toward a week of sporadic outage. Whatever was done is some nasty business that IMHO FPN does not deserve no matter how Wim or others may have acted in other situations. I hope they actually do have a handle on it now.

david i
April 27th, 2013, 08:34 AM
I think we all know it's not as simple as DNS. Whatever it is, I think we're getting on toward a week of sporadic outage. Whatever was done is some nasty business that IMHO FPN does not deserve no matter how Wim or others may have acted in other situations. I hope they actually do have a handle on it now.

Some situations do invite Schadenfreude, no doubt. Of course, I am certain I would be unhappy if FPB went through this sort of thing. One can play with philosophy and with "degree of evil" no doubt (in fact, such chats can be engaging), but I don't know that I accept the notion that "no matter how one acted", a site crash is never deserved. I mean, if someone were a thief, murderer, what have you, then a site crash would seem a quite modest punishment. I don't know enough about the backdoor evil at FPN though to comment as to whether this event was "deserved". I merely don't dismiss the possibility it was deserved ;)

regards

david

Jimmy James
April 27th, 2013, 08:42 AM
Schadenfreude in your situation I completely accept. I don't *think* anybody at FPN has raped or murdered to my knowledge, so I'm sticking with the idea that whatever hacking was done is undeserved. That's me.

david i
April 27th, 2013, 08:46 AM
Hi Jimmy,

Please note that I have not accused anyone of rape or murder, heaven forbid. I merely wished to generate a logical construct to approach the issue you raised. Indeed, I well recognize that there is good chance you are correct that the hacking (if it even was hacking) was not "deserved". However... i don't assume it.

regards

David

Jimmy James
April 27th, 2013, 08:48 AM
I read you. I, in turn, was just sort of applying your construct to my own value system not attempting to put words in your mouth. I enjoy reading and occasionally interacting with you. I hated that your class reunion fell on Raleigh Pen Show weekend last year.

david i
April 27th, 2013, 08:49 AM
I'll be in Raleigh this year. Do drop over to FPB as well.

regards

david

nomadhacker
April 27th, 2013, 09:38 AM
I want to make sure and clarify that I was merely speaking earlier of the DNS system being identified as the source of the problem. I don't know if it is being misidentified or if there is some deeper murkier story behind the outage. I just know that it is technically not possible for DNS to be responsible for a selective URL redirect.

I harbor no ill will toward FPN. I reached out earlier via email to offer any help I could. They thanked me cordially but say they're near the end of their troubles.

I am not really familiar with the history of moderation or any of the situations that some others here seem to be upset about, so I really can't have a legitimate opinion. I'm new to the fountain pen forums here and on FPN. It is unfortunate in my opinion that the site is down because there is a lot of valuable information on their boards for new collectors like me. If there are community problems as well, that is another misfortune.

rwiker
April 27th, 2013, 10:11 AM
Having read most of this thread, it seems that somewhere along the line FPN are either not being entirely honest in their explanations as to why the board has been taken down, or have been misled.

The nameserver bit does not ring true for the following reason:
nameserver software on any major 'worth it's salt' provider is inherently secure, and if it was open to being hacked, you would have a fair chunk of the Internet community working on a fix for it.



That's true, and it happened in 2008, and also on a number of other occasions. There are still DNS servers on the internet that are susceptible to the DNS spoofability bug discovered in 2008.




In a nutshell:
What the nameserver does is provide an ip address for the site that you ar wanting to access, so that when I want to go to www.somesite.com it will provide the correct ip address for that site.
Every site on the Internet then has to have a UNIQUE ip address for it to work.



Not true - you can have many names resolving to a single ip address (virtual hosting), and also single names resolving to multiple ip addresses.




The original spec for nameservers require that you have 2 nameservers and that these should be placed in separate locations to provide for redundancy in case one goes down.

This means that if anything was changed, it was changed with the nameservers and this can ONLY BE DONE BY A PERSON WHO HAS ADMIN ACCESS rights to the account.
If this is so, then there is more in-fighting going on at FPN than their posts are admitting and perhaps they should rather have put up a message to say the site was having admin problems and would be back shortly instead of all the gobbledygook doublespeak they have posted.



This is just speculation based on the premise that all DNS servers run bug-free software, and cannot be accessed by hackers. There is ample evidence that this is not the case.




The latest posting that there will be a 24 hour delay for the name to be propogated through the nameservers is only true if the site has been moved to a new hosting service and has been given a new ip address.



No, the delay is based on the TTL (Time To Live) attribute of the DNS record(s)...




Also, the way the nameservers have been set up at present for the site will never work because you cannot use your own domain name for DNS address which they have at present (their nameservers are ns1.fountainpen... and ns2.fountain...) which is why I get a 'site not found error' when I try to access it.



I'm pretty sure that the domain definition also includes the ip addresses for ns1.fountainpennetwork.com etc.




By trying to hide the truth of the matter just means that they end up alienating the loyal contributers and users and when the truth does emerge it could do more damage than if they were just open about it at the outset. (To take and example from US histiry, if Nixon had admitted everything at the start, it would probably have all just blown over instead of ... .)

Hopefully they all pull themselves together and get the board back up and running or they will lose more people.
I see many FPN users have already made a move to an alternative site for their daily fix of penmania.

Just to be clear: I am also frustrated by the extended downtime, and I would have preferred a little more communication from the admins. On the other hand, I cannot see that speculation and conspiracy theories fill the need for information.

rwiker
April 27th, 2013, 10:16 AM
I want to make sure and clarify that I was merely speaking earlier of the DNS system being identified as the source of the problem. I don't know if it is being misidentified or if there is some deeper murkier story behind the outage. I just know that it is technically not possible for DNS to be responsible for a selective URL redirect.



Well, given that DNS is a distributed, replicated system, it is entirely possible for two requests being served by different servers. It would also be possible to have all requests routed through a rogue web server, which in turn selectively redirects some urls. Hackers are pretty inventive, and I don't think we have enough information to conclude that DNS is not involved.



I harbor no ill will toward FPN. I reached out earlier via email to offer any help I could. They thanked me cordially but say they're near the end of their troubles.

I am not really familiar with the history of moderation or any of the situations that some others here seem to be upset about, so I really can't have a legitimate opinion. I'm new to the fountain pen forums here and on FPN. It is unfortunate in my opinion that the site is down because there is a lot of valuable information on their boards for new collectors like me. If there are community problems as well, that is another misfortune.

nomadhacker
April 27th, 2013, 11:15 AM
Well, given that DNS is a distributed, replicated system, it is entirely possible for two requests being served by different servers. It would also be possible to have all requests routed through a rogue web server, which in turn selectively redirects some urls. Hackers are pretty inventive, and I don't think we have enough information to conclude that DNS is not involved.


Two subsequent requests from a single computer would go to the same IP. Your browser and computer (and ISP and several DNS helper layers in between) cache the DNS lookup info for a while. So you would not be getting multiple IPs from different URLs while browsing the site--unless they were going through reverse proxy or load-balancing software of some sort to manage server strain. And in that case, they would still be going to the same VIP before hitting the endpoint IPs. (DNS load balancing would serve up rotating IPs at the DNS server level, but would fall under the same issue as above about subsequent calls from the same client computer being cached in several layers)

Indeed, hackers who actually hijack the domain could set up a server that would selectively redirect traffic back to the original site, while keeping some traffic on their own servers. (though that would typically be done for the purposes of making it indistinguishible that the hijack had taken place to allow them to collect user logins or other sensitive info without the user knowing they were putting their info into a different site. Doing that for a 'loud' hack like this which is done for attention is a little strange.) However, in that case the redirect would be going in the opposite direction, as traceroute or other tools would show. Further, that still would preclude putting up a site banner page that grabs all that traffic and routing it to the Notice page that FPN has had up. The URLs that had been 'hijacked' would still be hijacked because they wouldn't ever hit the FPN server to get the redirect command to go to the banner page--since the selective redirect would be going in the opposite direction and would therefore be hitting the hijacking server first.

whych
April 27th, 2013, 11:23 AM
@rwiker
Do a google for the RFC spec for nameservers and you will find that they require 2 and that they be hosted in separate buildings.

fountainpennetwork.com can NEVER be found with the ccurrently urrent way the dns entry is set up. ns1 and ns2 are separate machines that are part of fountainpennetwork.com domain. If I cannot resolve the domain name, I don't have a hope in hell of resolving any other machine linked to the domain.

Go back and read about dns and how it works.

TTL is a factor when the server ip address could change. If the ip address has not changed, as you imply, then it should still resolve to the old ip address.

If there are dns servers using old software, then they are certainly not part of a decent self-respecting commercial system and if you are using a public nameserver that uses dns server software that is known to be prone to hacking, you are crazy.

nomadhacker
April 27th, 2013, 11:55 AM
@rwiker
Do a google for the RFC spec for nameservers and you will find that they require 2 and that they be hosted in separate buildings.

fountainpennetwork.com can NEVER be found with the ccurrently urrent way the dns entry is set up. ns1 and ns2 are separate machines that are part of fountainpennetwork.com domain. If I cannot resolve the domain name, I don't have a hope in hell of resolving any other machine linked to the domain.

Go back and read about dns and how it works.

TTL is a factor when the server ip address could change. If the ip address has not changed, as you imply, then it should still resolve to the old ip address.

If there are dns servers using old software, then they are certainly not part of a decent self-respecting commercial system and if you are using a public nameserver that uses dns server software that is known to be prone to hacking, you are crazy.

The RFC requires 'compliant' DNS setup to have two servers, and wants them ideally to be two different servers. However there's nothing really enforcing that. Lots of people set up a single DNS server and just two alias names--for example ns1 and ns2--pointing at the same machine on the same IP. Technically you can even set up a single server with a single name and it'll usually work for most things. Some email systems won't like it, but it's possible.

Also, you can indeed set up nameservers with your own domain to manage your own domain. I've done it myself for one of mine. You can set up ns1.mydomain.com and ns2.mydomain.com to manage mydomain.com. You register the nameservers by IP--not DNS--with the upstream servers. You then input the nameservers that you've registered upstream with your registrar's domain tools to indicate those are the ones to use. Like I said before, it's not really well explained, even the O'Reilly 'Nutshell' book doesn't really explain(one of their poorer ones, I'm afraid). But it's done all the time usually by companies wanting to brand their whole setup.

A quick look at dnsstuff's domain tools shows that FPN do indeed have some minor problems with the setup of their DNS servers. Mostly some courtesy requirements for routing management emails. Also their two dns servers don't reference each other. But just minor things really. Only things that some picky mail servers would maybe care about.

I can only speak to the technical explanation of DNS, as I deal with it quite a lot at my day job (at a registrar. Not the one that FPN uses :) I don't have any personal reason or evidence to say there's conspiracy. So I won't speak to that.

Though I agree with you that it is almost certainly not the DNS system to blame as stated.

radaddict
April 27th, 2013, 12:14 PM
Well, if FPN is having DNS problems, we can speculate about any IP address changes or how the RFC spec plays into this, but we'd better keep that on the QT or we'll all be SOL. YMMV IIRC TTFN :bounce:

nomadhacker
April 27th, 2013, 12:20 PM
Looks like they're back up. Though pretty spotty. Guess the server is getting hammered. (By people like me hitting it to see if it's up I expect :)

EDIT: With a few design tweaks too.

Sailor Kenshin
April 27th, 2013, 01:09 PM
VERY spotty. As in, 'doesn't really work.'

whych
April 27th, 2013, 01:21 PM
Looks like they're back up. Though pretty spotty. Guess the server is getting hammered. (By people like me hitting it to see if it's up I expect


No, I think many of us have a lot of catching up to do and are trying to access the site. ;)

tiffanyhenschel
April 27th, 2013, 05:17 PM
Looks like they're back up. Though pretty spotty. Guess the server is getting hammered. (By people like me hitting it to see if it's up I expect


No, I think many of us have a lot of catching up to do and are trying to access the site. ;)

I just tried to access the site and got one of the redirects. Again. :jaw:

radaddict
April 27th, 2013, 06:02 PM
Looks like they're back up. Though pretty spotty. Guess the server is getting hammered. (By people like me hitting it to see if it's up I expect


No, I think many of us have a lot of catching up to do and are trying to access the site. ;)

I just tried to access the site and got one of the redirects. Again. :jaw:
Looks like they've taken the site down again. All the kings horses and all the kings men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty back together again.

ThriveToScribe
April 27th, 2013, 08:32 PM
[QUOTE=tiffanyhenschel;22439][QUOTE=whych;22380][quote]
Looks like they're back up. Though pretty spotty. Guess the server is getting hammered. (By people like me hitting it to see if it's up I expect


Well, back up now at 21:32 EDT USA.

Antoinem
April 28th, 2013, 08:09 AM
Hello Jar

Its not about storming out. It is about all the changes that they have made. New complicated rules and regulations, slower than molasses in winter connection, poor site layout and so on..... What used to be a friendly and well run forum is quickly becoming a maze. It is too bad. Change is not always good and the administrators should have pooled users before changing.

Some members supported the forum through pen, ink purchase or donations and I think we deserve the courtesy of being asked our opinion. Without members there would be no forum. What attracted members in the past is probably going to make them go somewhere else now and that is too bad.

Just my two cents :)

Flake
April 28th, 2013, 08:28 AM
SQL issues for me along with the occasional redirect. :confused:

Phoenix
April 28th, 2013, 09:10 AM
I'm no computer expert but is anyone else wondering if Wim apologized to all the people he's banned and restored their posting privileges and deleted posts if this wouldn't all get fixed?

jar
April 28th, 2013, 09:26 AM
Nope, not really.