PLEASE SHOW A LITTLE COMMON COURTESY

[Curtisvan]

I'm so sorry for posting a rant but with the newer members I feel it's necessary. Guys when someone lists a sale, please don't publicly post the "better deal" or discuss all the pros and cons. If you want to tell about the seller being great to deal with or give good words about the pen it's fine. If you want to help someone that you might think is expecting too much or being unreasonable, use the private message button. If a seller is blatantly mis representing or trying to swindle someone then say whatever. Other than that please don't sabotage a seller. It could be you getting sabotaged one day.

[inklord]

Thanks for stepping up and saying "it".

[Brilliant Bill]

This is a public forum. It costs absolutely nothing to create a post saying you want to sell something. I don't think that entitles you to special protection from any comments anyone feels compelled to make.

You get what you pay for.

[jar]

This is a public forum. It costs absolutely nothing to create a post saying you want to sell something. I don't think that entitles you to special protection from any comments anyone feels compelled to make.

You get what you pay for.

Yes, we understand there are people that feel like you do.

[Drummergeorge]

I follow the adage advice for, "treat others how you want to be treated" therefore, I follow the 3 monkeys as well, See, Hear, and Speak. If there is a bad deal, I bite my tongue and hope for the best.

[Jon Szanto]

This is a public forum. It costs absolutely nothing to create a post saying you want to sell something. I don't think that entitles you to special protection from any comments anyone feels compelled to make.

You get what you pay for.

That is a bunch of bullshit.

Even though we seem to have a completely rudderless ship, and there is no way to intervene officially because the absentee owner has never allowed anyone to have any control over day-to-day options, this is IN FACT a site that is driven by it's membership.

Many have been here for years, and there is an accrued value in the content of the forum, contributed "free of charge" by the members. There is every reason in the world for the people who have added to this site for years to have not only a say in how things go - ESPESCIALLY in light of the lack of governance - but to also address those who are new to the site. To have that kind of behavior, and to callously interfere with the people utilizing the sales areas, is simply unacceptable.

I have no love of the sales forum. I actually wish it didn't exist. But since it does, and since I know there are good people (as well as others) involved in it, I am going to extend them every courtesy. The concept of "getting what you pay for" is completely fucked up, because this community has "paid" for it with the level of interest and contribution over the years that very much does entitle the concept of a code of conduct, written or otherwise.

[RocketRyan]

I'm afraid I have to agree with brilliantbill in exchange for fee less selling you are going to get free speech.
That is the nature of an open forum.
Maybe we need to make a statement that you advertise your wares at your own risk! Make it a sticky at the top of the forum, then everyone knows! Otherwise we end up with these same old dull rants about things that can't be policed. Or we need to get an administrator to make some actual rules.
Of course then we will probably end up as stuffy as FPN, and no one wants that.

[Jon Szanto]

The nature of an open forum is to have free, open, and vibrant dialogue in the DISCUSSION FORUM areas.

A sales area is a completely different beast, as anyone with common sense can appreciate. This very item has been discussed in the past, and the general consensus has been that it is unacceptable to undercut the activities of any honest sale going on, and the place for commentary is if there is any indication of wrong-doing, scams, etc.

No one wants stuffy. If you had been around for any of the history on this board, you'd know that, in spades. The difference is that with the freedom afforded us, it is even more important that we take the responsibility to treat each other well. Fucking around with other people's sales threads is as lame as it gets, a really amateur move. Not going to happen.

[RocketRyan]

Then if you had read and Understood what I said, there needs to be rules.
Maybe we should make one about bad language as there is no age limit either!!!
And as for your comments on "if you had been around for the history of this board" that kind of attitude is everything that is wrong with these type of forum the "it's ours" attitude is closed minded and bordering on ignorance.
As a polite note please don't use bad language, not all of us find it acceptable.

[mmd]

Can anyone explain to me why it's unacceptable to discuss pros and cons of the pens for sale? I understand that discussing better deals or prices somewhere else is rude and in general not a good idea. I believe it's actually seller's responsibility to provide accurate info on pros/cons on the items for sale and if this kind of info is lacking, IMO, it's okay for someone else to provide insights. I agree that it's not the politest thing to do and it probably will not help to sell the pens faster but it helps the buyers to make more informed decisions, even if the insights are only peraonal preferences. IMO, discussing pros and cons is just neutral. I would not do that because I'm lazy. In the extreme case when one potential buyer asks a question and someone disagrees with the answer provided by the seller, is he/she not supposed to comment?

[Scooby921]

I think it's quite simple. If you don't have an interest in buying a product why are you wasting your time commenting on it? Do you assume that you are the only one to see a blemish? Do you assume you are the only one to take issue with the price? It's not your responsibility to fix the world. Let people make their own decisions. If someone decides to pay too much money for a pen that is their choice. They chose not to haggle on the price. They chose not to research and establish a reasonable market value. They chose not to educate themselves. Call it the "stupid" tax. Perhaps the seller is a bit disrespectful for pricing something too high or not disclosing information, but that's again not your problem. Put their name down on your list of people not to buy from. Move along.


For what it's worth, on a forum I moderate we have a lot of trouble with this. We don't allow these types of random comments because they drive things off topic. The thread is about an item for sale. It's not a thread intended for general discussion of the item. If it were it would be somewhere else in the forum. Thus we keep the "for sale" threads clean and have an off-topic thread specifically dedicated to making fun of all of the over-priced cars for sale in the "for sale" forum. It's a free place to discuss and laugh without driving the sale thread off-topic and making yourself look like an asshole for ruining someone's sale. I'd actually enjoy another thread like this (perhaps I'll go start one). On numerous occasions I've seen inks for sale for ridiculous prices...even ones currently in production and readily available priced at 3x their market value. I've also watched someone buy a pen from me and turn around and put it up for sale for more money than they paid for it. In none of these instances have I said anything. It's not my job to put the seller in a "place". If someone wants to pay $50 for a $16 bottle of ink that is their choice.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I would have thought the simplest way forward would be to have every sales thread locked as soon as it is posted. That way comment could only be made by pm to the seller, or in a separate thread in the discussion forum. This would likely deter most casual commenters.

[penwash]

This is a public forum. It costs absolutely nothing to create a post saying you want to sell something. I don't think that entitles you to special protection from any comments anyone feels compelled to make.

You get what you pay for.

The thing is, no one is calling for a special protection. As Jon Szanto mentioned above, this forum is without an involved owner, so we as the members have little choice but to watch out for each other. Which is not necessarily a bad thing for a community.

Asking for a bit of common courtesy is natural and acceptable.
People who can't understand that will do what they are compelled to do anyways.
But those who are willing to consider an alternative perspective, may alter course and we'll have less sharp edges in the For Sale section.

EDIT: Made my last sentence clearer.

[Lady Onogaro]

I would have thought the simplest way forward would be to have every sales thread locked as soon as it is posted. That way comment could only be made by pm to the seller, or in a separate thread in the discussion forum. This would likely deter most casual commenters.

That sounds like a good solution. Can the person posting do this, or does the admin have to do it?

[Chrissy]

I would have thought the simplest way forward would be to have every sales thread locked as soon as it is posted. That way comment could only be made by pm to the seller, or in a separate thread in the discussion forum. This would likely deter most casual commenters.

That sounds like a good solution. Can the person posting do this, or does the admin have to do it?
The person posting the sale thread can't do it unless he or she marks it as Sold

[RocketRyan]

I would have thought the simplest way forward would be to have every sales thread locked as soon as it is posted. That way comment could only be made by pm to the seller, or in a separate thread in the discussion forum. This would likely deter most casual commenters.

Ah some common sense!

[RocketRyan]

I would like to point out my original point again, you can't police this unless you set rules... What is considered right or wrong in one culture may be incorrect to another. You can't police the whole world. It's called freedom of speech.
As said earlier it's an open forum if you understand that proceed. If not ebay.

[Brilliant Bill]

I've come to understand, Jon, that you're a very emotional person; you take things personally.

Again, this is a public forum. People are going to say things and publish opinions that do not comport with the way you'd like things to be.

Your leaping to be protective of a forum you feel emotionally invested in is understandable. I would simply ask that your comments be civil and reasonable. That would seem to be one element of the "common courtesy" that precipitated this discussion.






This is a public forum. It costs absolutely nothing to create a post saying you want to sell something. I don't think that entitles you to special protection from any comments anyone feels compelled to make.

You get what you pay for.

That is a bunch of bullshit.

Even though we seem to have a completely rudderless ship, and there is no way to intervene officially because the absentee owner has never allowed anyone to have any control over day-to-day options, this is IN FACT a site that is driven by it's membership.

Many have been here for years, and there is an accrued value in the content of the forum, contributed "free of charge" by the members. There is every reason in the world for the people who have added to this site for years to have not only a say in how things go - ESPESCIALLY in light of the lack of governance - but to also address those who are new to the site. To have that kind of behavior, and to callously interfere with the people utilizing the sales areas, is simply unacceptable.

I have no love of the sales forum. I actually wish it didn't exist. But since it does, and since I know there are good people (as well as others) involved in it, I am going to extend them every courtesy. The concept of "getting what you pay for" is completely fucked up, because this community has "paid" for it with the level of interest and contribution over the years that very much does entitle the concept of a code of conduct, written or otherwise.

[carlos.q]

The OP only asked for a little common courtesy. Courtesy cannot be legislated. You either have it or you don't.

[fpnut]

The OP only asked for a little common courtesy. Courtesy cannot be legislated. You either have it or you don't.

I agree. This is the key to the issue here.

[RocketRyan]

But you can't enforce it.

[RocketRyan]

I'd like to point out I don't disagree with common courtesy, simply that without any rules or guidelines an open forum is an open forum, and people should be made aware and not be surprised when trolls comment on their sales thread.

[Dreck]

I'd like to point out I don't disagree with common courtesy, simply that without any rules or guidelines an open forum is an open forum, and people should be made aware and not be surprised when trolls comment on their sales thread.

Just because someone can do something doesn't mean they should do it. Knowing that it's a lousy thing to do and still doing it indicates a person of very low character.

[TSherbs]

Interestingly, on these forum threads we frequently notify fellow members of deals all over the world, thus influencing a few sales and undercutting some vendors and promoting others. I see this many, many times, and it always seems to be done sincerely with the motivation of helping the buyer to a good purchase. Some of those sellers and vendors are members here. I don't see anyone suggesting that these recommendations or discouragements are inappropriate or "discourteous" or lacking "common sense". But when a person tries to sell here directly, we are rebuked for similar sincere activity. On MassDrop, members sometimes post instructions on how to find the item at a lower price and delivered more quickly. I have appreciated that information. Thus far, I have only used private messages to speak to sellers about anything (i have a couple of times told them that their prices are severely undercut elsewhere), but I don't begrudge anyone publicly looking out for the buyer on a sales thread. It is not mean or personal; it just favors one side of the deal. Of course, simply smearing a pen or a seller should not occur, but smearing ideas and people at this site is tolerated, so it wouldn't surprise me to see it in sales, too. THAT, at least, would be fair (as in consistent).

[kevmid]

Courtesy may not necessarily be linked to commenting on others sales, depending on one's view. I would not do that but others may even see it as being helpful, it may not be that all is negatively intended.

Having been a recent member to this forum I enjoy it and have learnt a lot but I was unaware of any common consensus or preferred behaviour in the abscence of rules. I merely go to the thread subjects that interest me so if such advice exists I have missed it, sorry. If there is such a thing would it not be preferable to have this as required reading to join the forum so there is at least some awareness of what is expected?

If that is not possible due to an absentee owner, then as others have said, how can one get upset if people do not follow guidelines which are not explicitly stated or binding?
I have not come across any mention of this common consensus in the months that I have followed this forum, so I see it a tad unreasonable to expect others to follow advice they may not have seen. It is hard to follow an unwritten code of conduct.

I do not support commenting on others sales, and I appreciate the considerable investment some have put into this forum to make it what it is over the years. If there are guidelines which are commonly accepted but not enforceable, then some will ignore that, it is human nature. All one can do is request them to desist in a courteous way, but I doubt shouting or swearing will solve the problem. Courtesy is clearly not using bad language or starting a thread as a rant with a shout headline. How can you ask for courtesy if you do not display it yourself?

[RocketRyan]

I'd like to point out I don't disagree with common courtesy, simply that without any rules or guidelines an open forum is an open forum, and people should be made aware and not be surprised when trolls comment on their sales thread.

Just because someone can do something doesn't mean they should do it. Knowing that it's a lousy thing to do and still doing it indicates a person of very low character.

You completely missed what I was saying. I'm not condoning it. Please read my posts again.

[Scooby921]

So what we need is someone to hack the forum and establish a group of moderators.

[jar]

But you can't enforce it.

That's true. People are free to behave in a manner that is not acceptable in polite company. That's certainly excusable when dealing with children but it is also acceptable to tell them to go back and sit at the kiddie table with their little friends.

[fpnut]

But you can't enforce it.

That's true. People are free to behave in a manner that is not acceptable in polite company. That's certainly excusable when dealing with children but it is also acceptable to tell them to go back and sit at the kiddie table with their little friends.
Killer!

[RocketRyan]

But you can't enforce it.

That's true. People are free to behave in a manner that is not acceptable in polite company. That's certainly excusable when dealing with children but it is also acceptable to tell them to go back and sit at the kiddie table with their little friends.

How? I think you have misunderstood what I am saying, or maybe I am not too clear in what I say.
So for the last time. I agree that common courtesy should be exercised, but who decides what is acceptable and what is not? Is it that hard to stick a sticky at the top of the sales forum? Surely it's easier than this utter stupidity of expecting everyone to just know the unwritten rules?
Dig at me if you want, send me to the kiddies table! But I am only pointing out the obvious that as new members join why not make it easy for them to fit in and know what is expected! Rather than the self elected having a rant when people don't follow their unwritten rules.

[jar]

But you can't enforce it.

That's true. People are free to behave in a manner that is not acceptable in polite company. That's certainly excusable when dealing with children but it is also acceptable to tell them to go back and sit at the kiddie table with their little friends.

How? I think you have misunderstood what I am saying, or maybe I am not too clear in what I say.
So for the last time. I agree that common courtesy should be exercised, but who decides what is acceptable and what is not? Is it that hard to stick a sticky at the top of the sales forum? Surely it's easier than this utter stupidity of expecting everyone to just know the unwritten rules?
Dig at me if you want, send me to the kiddies table! But I am only pointing out the obvious that as new members join why not make it easy for them to fit in and know what is expected! Rather than the self elected having a rant when people don't follow their unwritten rules.

So you should place the sticky or announcement and see that it gets read.

It really is that simple.

What? You say to can't place the sticky or see that it gets read?

Ah!

[RocketRyan]

But you can't enforce it.

That's true. People are free to behave in a manner that is not acceptable in polite company. That's certainly excusable when dealing with children but it is also acceptable to tell them to go back and sit at the kiddie table with their little friends.

How? I think you have misunderstood what I am saying, or maybe I am not too clear in what I say.
So for the last time. I agree that common courtesy should be exercised, but who decides what is acceptable and what is not? Is it that hard to stick a sticky at the top of the sales forum? Surely it's easier than this utter stupidity of expecting everyone to just know the unwritten rules?
Dig at me if you want, send me to the kiddies table! But I am only pointing out the obvious that as new members join why not make it easy for them to fit in and know what is expected! Rather than the self elected having a rant when people don't follow their unwritten rules.

So you should place the sticky or announcement and see that it gets read.

It really is that simple.

What? You say to can't place the sticky or see that it gets read?

Ah!

I'm not sure what it is that I've done to rattle your cage to the extent that you feel the need to snipe at me personally? But what ever it was it wasn't meant in malice. So i shall leave this thread before it becomes petty and pointless.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I'm going to play the cynic. Those selling through forums are generally seeking prices that are above what would be expected from an auction. Sometimes those prices meet or exceed currently available new pen prices. This is for pens that are still manufactured. In the vintage market the picture is less clear. However, every time someone claims that their price is what the market will bear, I challenge them to put the item on auction starting at $1 in the confidence that the market will actually reflect their assertion. Nobody has ever taken up my challenge, for the obvious reason I guess.

There is certainly a degree of NIMBYism going on here. As others have pointed out, commenting on sales elsewhere is apparently acceptable. That is something of a double standard.

If we want a rule here that sets a standard then decide on what it is going to be and apply it, and bear in mind that in some cultures pointing out high prices is not a 'lousy thing to do', nor does it make a 'person of very low character'.

Or use my earlier suggestion. If YouTube users can turn off comments why can't it (or something similar at the admin level) be done here?

[jar]

I'm going to play the cynic. Those selling through forums are generally seeking prices that are above what would be expected from an auction. Sometimes those prices meet or exceed currently available new pen prices. This is for pens that are still manufactured. In the vintage market the picture is less clear. However, every time someone claims that their price is what the market will bear, I challenge them to put the item on auction starting at $1 in the confidence that the market will actually reflect their assertion. Nobody has ever taken up my challenge, for the obvious reason I guess.

There is certainly a degree of NIMBYism going on here. As others have pointed out, commenting on sales elsewhere is apparently acceptable. That is something of a double standard.

If we want a rule here that sets a standard then decide on what it is going to be and apply it, and bear in mind that in some cultures pointing out high prices is not a 'lousy thing to do', nor does it make a 'person of very low character'.

Or use my earlier suggestion. If YouTube users can turn off comments why can't it (or something similar at the admin level) be done here?

It probably can be done at the Admin level. Please tell us which of us are at the Admin Level?

[TSherbs]

I'm not sure what it is that I've done to rattle your cage to the extent that you feel the need to snipe at me personally? But what ever it was it wasn't meant in malice. So i shall leave this thread before it becomes petty and pointless.

Yeah, expecting courtesy and delivering it to others are not apportioned equally at times.

[broadoblique]

It shouldn't have to be said, or required, that we should treat our fellow members with courtesy and respect. Some people don't have a good concept for it. And I know that no matter what I write, I won't change them. But be aware that one does earn a reputation in a small forum such as this.

I also think that we don't realize that most sellers on this forum are a benefit for the others. To Empty of Clouds - I more often sell at ebay and start everything at $1. It's because I find that I net far more over there than I do if I set my own price on this forum. And I buy more often here than ebay because the prices are lower - and I have far more confidence in the seller.

If someone has a higher opinion of a pen they're selling than the market does, that's fine. A listing expiring unsold will make the point far better than any petty post.

Also, if anyone disparages a seller or their items they better know their stuff. I don't think we need rules to ban such posts. But if it's fair to comment on sale postings I think it's also fair to comment on the discourteous posters. If one can't be respectful on this forum they don't get much repect from me.

This is supposed to be an enjoyable forum for an enjoyable part of our lives. Please let's try to keep the negative emotions and stress out of it. They don't belong here.

Have fun,
Craig

[jar]

As long as there is no effective Admin presence at this forum the only options available are common courtesy and peer pressure.

[Curtisvan]

I'm afraid I have to agree with brilliantbill in exchange for fee less selling you are going to get free speech.
That is the nature of an open forum.
Maybe we need to make a statement that you advertise your wares at your own risk! Make it a sticky at the top of the forum, then everyone knows! Otherwise we end up with these same old dull rants about things that can't be policed. Or we need to get an administrator to make some actual rules.
Of course then we will probably end up as stuffy as FPN, and no one wants that. using that thought I guess it wouldn't bother you or bill if every time you listed a sale I told of a better deal or just interfered for the heck of it. I'm not against free speech but I am for common courtesy. If you guys can't understand that then never mind

[Curtisvan]

Then if you had read and Understood what I said, there needs to be rules.
Maybe we should make one about bad language as there is no age limit either!!!
And as for your comments on "if you had been around for the history of this board" that kind of attitude is everything that is wrong with these type of forum the "it's ours" attitude is closed minded and bordering on ignorance.
As a polite note please don't use bad language, not all of us find it acceptable.
Really Rocket? If we can post any thought, then why did anyone's language? I was just asking that we respect the sales forum. How many times do we see a VP listed for $120-$130 and know on Amazon you can buy a new one for not much more? I pm the seller and try to help them not tell the. Enter deal on their thread. And if you thought my post was a rant then I'm truly sorry for you.

[Curtisvan]

I would like to point out my original point again, you can't police this unless you set rules... What is considered right or wrong in one culture may be incorrect to another. You can't police the whole world. It's called freedom of speech.
As said earlier it's an open forum if you understand that proceed. If not ebay. rocket. There are no rules set against cursing. So in effect you were wrong to ask someone not to.

[Curtisvan]

I'd like to point out I don't disagree with common courtesy, simply that without any rules or guidelines an open forum is an open forum, and people should be made aware and not be surprised when trolls comment on their sales thread. that goes for cursing rocket. Me asking not to have interference with a sale is wrong because there's not a rule but you can ask for no profanity. That is a double standard.

[Curtisvan]

But you can't enforce it.

That's true. People are free to behave in a manner that is not acceptable in polite company. That's certainly excusable when dealing with children but it is also acceptable to tell them to go back and sit at the kiddie table with their little friends.

How? I think you have misunderstood what I am saying, or maybe I am not too clear in what I say.
So for the last time. I agree that common courtesy should be exercised, but who decides what is acceptable and what is not? Is it that hard to stick a sticky at the top of the sales forum? Surely it's easier than this utter stupidity of expecting everyone to just know the unwritten rules?
Dig at me if you want, send me to the kiddies table! But I am only pointing out the obvious that as new members join why not make it easy for them to fit in and know what is expected! Rather than the self elected having a rant when people don't follow their unwritten rules. self elected? Rocket you are a blowhard. I asked please for common courtesy. You call me a ranter and self elected. I'm so tired of your double standard ignorance I'm marking this thread sold to shut you up.