PDA

View Full Version : Iron Gall Ink - homemade - for dip pens



jbb
April 21st, 2013, 05:00 PM
My homemade iron gall ink finally darked up enough and wrote nicely this morning. I guess I finally added the right amount of gum Arabic or something. My process of making this ink was a bit haphazard (sort of like how I cook) but here's a picture of the ink plus and some oak galls.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8524/8670317406_37f17ed98f_o.jpg

KrazyIvan
April 21st, 2013, 06:25 PM
Cool! Something more I need to try. :)

reprieve
April 21st, 2013, 06:32 PM
Very cool. Beautiful pen, too!

woosang
April 21st, 2013, 11:47 PM
My homemade iron gall ink finally darked up enough and wrote nicely this morning. I guess I finally added the right amount of gum Arabic or something. My process of making this ink was a bit haphazard (sort of like how I cook) but here's a picture of the ink plus and some oak galls.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8524/8670317406_37f17ed98f_o.jpg

I would love to try to make ink. That looks great!

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk 2

jbb
April 22nd, 2013, 06:17 AM
I would love to try to make ink. That looks great!

Are there oak trees with oak galls where you live?

gweddig
April 23rd, 2013, 10:45 AM
It was thanks to JBBs brewing efforts I brewed my own with galls sourced from my in-laws Valley Oak trees in the north part of the Sacramento Valley in California. I used a recipe from Fiberdrunk. The hardest part was the two months of waiting for the galls to ferment. It takes longer to change color on paper without certain chemical components, still figuring this stuff out. On the Rhodia paper the change is very quick.

I just finished brewing it last week so I haven't had a lot of time to really put it through it's paces.
This is "white balanced" on Rhodia paper with a dip pen:
2083

in a Sheaffer School pen, so far after a week it hasn't clogged:
2084

Finally a progression shot of the color change:
Freshly written:
2087

After 15 Seconds:
2085

After 15 minutes
2086

jbb
April 23rd, 2013, 10:57 AM
I was hoping you'd post to this topic gweddig! I hope Fiberdrunk sees it too. Your ink looks much darker than mine. Do you know what the key is to getting the ink dark?

gweddig
April 23rd, 2013, 11:45 AM
I was hoping you'd post to this topic gweddig! I hope Fiberdrunk sees it too. Your ink looks much darker than mine. Do you know what the key is to getting the ink dark?

I'm not really sure, I used "commercial" water soluble Iron Sulfate and powdered Gum Arabic sourced from eBay . If I recall you used steel wool or something in place of the Iron Sulfate? Might be that the right amount didn't leach from that, but I don't really know. I think the gum arabic is more about keeping the suspension and flow and not the color... but I am a sound guy, not a chemist.

I tried some on a piece of the vintage "fox watermark" paper you sent and it took a few days to blacken up. I'm guessing it didn't contain the optical brighteners and bleaching components that might darken the ink faster. I found this website (http://irongallink.org/) a few days ago and have yet to make time to read it in detail but I think there may be some answers there.

--greg

jbb
April 23rd, 2013, 11:55 AM
...I tried some on a piece of the vintage "fox watermark" paper you sent and it took a few days to blacken up. I'm guessing it didn't contain the optical brighteners and bleaching components that might darken the ink faster.

I use a lot of vintage paper so maybe optical brighteners and bleaching components are a factor I haven't considered. Is that common in modern paper?

jbb
April 23rd, 2013, 11:59 AM
I'm not really sure, I used "commercial" water soluble Iron Sulfate and powdered Gum Arabic sourced from eBay . If I recall you used steel wool or something in place of the Iron Sulfate? Might be that the right amount didn't leach from that, but I don't really know. I think the gum arabic is more about keeping the suspension and flow and not the color... but I am a sound guy, not a chemist.

I started with the steel wool (which should work) but also ended up throwing in some iron filings after my husband filed something iron (an old shoe last) in our workshop.

gweddig
April 23rd, 2013, 12:15 PM
I'm not really sure, I used "commercial" water soluble Iron Sulfate and powdered Gum Arabic sourced from eBay . If I recall you used steel wool or something in place of the Iron Sulfate? Might be that the right amount didn't leach from that, but I don't really know. I think the gum arabic is more about keeping the suspension and flow and not the color... but I am a sound guy, not a chemist.

I started with the steel wool (which should work) but also ended up throwing in some iron filings after my husband filed something iron (an old shoe last) in our workshop.

I know the steel wool should work but I wonder how concentrated it is compared to the stuff I used, it may make a difference. The other thing I thought of is that the ink may change as it's exposed to the air, so I wonder if there is a difference if it's left out in an inkwell for a certain period of time.

jbb
April 25th, 2013, 05:34 PM
Up until this afternoon I'd only seen older, dried oak galls but today there was this fresh, green one on a tree in the park. It's much heavier than the older ones with a sticky/waxy feeling on the outside. I have no idea if it would make good ink yet or if the older ones have more tannin.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8543/8681172621_676a8040e7_o.jpg

gweddig
April 25th, 2013, 06:27 PM
Oooooo! I have never seen a fresh one either. I will have to keep my eyes peeled for new ones. You will have to watch carefully to see if any baby wasps emerge from it.
--greg

fiberdrunk
April 25th, 2013, 08:58 PM
I was hoping you'd post to this topic gweddig! I hope Fiberdrunk sees it too. Your ink looks much darker than mine. Do you know what the key is to getting the ink dark?

Finally saw this thread! I'm still getting used to this forum.

Quality of galls is an important factor in how dark an ink turns out. Even more important is the ratio of gallotannic acid to the iron sulfate. That's where the pigment is formed. If that ratio is off, all kinds of problems can happen (including corrosion of the paper the ink is written on). Some inks need to age a little (my iron gall inks made from pomegranate peels benefit from a little aging, say a few weeks, to darken them. Even then, it is a dark gray ink on most papers and never quite a jet black like an aleppo iron gall ink). Sir Isaac Newton recommends putting his iron gall ink recipe in the sun (I only do this with his recipe, though).

I have a theory that a really wet year dilutes the strength of the tannin in plant matter, too. I see this with some types of acorns here that are ordinarily considered too bitter (i.e. too high in tannin) for wildlife to eat them-- yet I've seen after very wet summers that squirrels will eat them. Just a theory from personal observation.

fiberdrunk
April 25th, 2013, 09:00 PM
Wow, those are huge galls!! I've never seen the green ones, either. Very interesting!

jbb
April 25th, 2013, 09:08 PM
I was hoping you'd post to this topic gweddig! I hope Fiberdrunk sees it too. Your ink looks much darker than mine. Do you know what the key is to getting the ink dark?

Finally saw this thread! I'm still getting used to this forum.

Quality of galls is an important factor in how dark an ink turns out. Even more important is the ratio of gallotannic acid to the iron sulfate. That's where the pigment is formed. If that ratio is off, all kinds of problems can happen (including corrosion of the paper the ink is written on). Some inks need to age a little (my iron gall inks made from pomegranate peels benefit from a little aging, say a few weeks, to darken them. Even then, it is a dark gray ink on most papers and never quite a jet black like an aleppo iron gall ink). Sir Isaac Newton recommends putting his iron gall ink recipe in the sun (I only do this with his recipe, though).

I have a theory that a really wet year dilutes the strength of the tannin in plant matter, too. I see this with some types of acorns here that are ordinarily considered too bitter (i.e. too high in tannin) for wildlife to eat them-- yet I've seen after very wet summers that squirrels will eat them. Just a theory from personal observation.
Hi Fiberdrunk!!!! I'm so glad you found this post and can add your expertise. Now for the benefit of those of us in CA can you explain this strange things you call wet summer????????

jbb
April 25th, 2013, 09:10 PM
Oooooo! I have never seen a fresh one either. I will have to keep my eyes peeled for new ones. You will have to watch carefully to see if any baby wasps emerge from it.
--greg

You're just trying to scare me, right? There are no baby wasps in there???????????

fiberdrunk
April 25th, 2013, 09:20 PM
[QUOTE=jbb;21238]
Hi Fiberdrunk!!!! I'm so glad you found this post and can add your expertise. Now for the benefit of those of us in CA can you explain this strange things you call wet summer????????

Hee! Well, a wet summer is where it rains constantly and you rarely even have to water your garden; this is often followed by a hurricane or tropical storm late in the summer or early fall, too. That's how it's been here in NC the last couple of years! Have you guys been in a drought there?

I don't think you have to worry about the wasps... they're not the big stinging kind so far as I know. You can see more about them on Wikipedia here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gall_wasp).

jbb
April 25th, 2013, 10:11 PM
Hee! Well, a wet summer is where it rains constantly and you rarely even have to water your garden; this is often followed by a hurricane or tropical storm late in the summer or early fall, too. That's how it's been here in NC the last couple of years! Have you guys been in a drought there?

I don't think you have to worry about the wasps... they're not the big stinging kind so far as I know. You can see more about them on Wikipedia here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gall_wasp).

A wet summer is where it stops raining in June and starts again in September. In a dry summer it stops in May and resumes in October.

Are there wasps inside that green oak gall??? ....because the wasps around here sting.

gweddig
April 25th, 2013, 10:29 PM
I don't think you have to worry about the wasps... they're not the big stinging kind so far as I know. You can see more about them on Wikipedia here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gall_wasp).

Are there wasps inside that green oak gall??? ....because the wasps around here sting.

I could be wrong but I always assumed the holes in the galls are the pathways made by the wasps. On this page (http://www.fcps.edu/islandcreekes/ecology/oak_apple_gall_wasp.htm), at the bottom, it says they do not sting. (and it looks like I was right about the holes)

jbb
April 26th, 2013, 07:03 AM
I could be wrong but I always assumed the holes in the galls are the pathways made by the wasps. On this page (http://www.fcps.edu/islandcreekes/ecology/oak_apple_gall_wasp.htm), at the bottom, it says they do not sting. (and it looks like I was right about the holes)

I think I'll move that green oak gall out of the house. :jaw: How many oak galls does it take to make a batch of ink?

gweddig
April 26th, 2013, 09:06 AM
I think I'll move that green oak gall out of the house. How many oak galls does it take to make a batch of ink?

I used about 7 ounces according to the recipe (http://www.flickr.com/photos/fiberdrunk/8242271479/in/set-72157625122919380) I usually don't measure too much when I cook but I did on this (the first time).

jbb
April 26th, 2013, 09:30 AM
Here's the fresh, green oak gall sliced. No visible wasp. It smells fruity and has the consistency of an apple or pear.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8256/8682796479_449dcef528_o.jpg

Uncle Red
April 26th, 2013, 09:59 AM
JBB, I think the little things in the white spots on the lower left slice are the wasp embryos. The wasps are tiny, not like paper wasps.

jbb
April 26th, 2013, 11:04 AM
JBB, I think the little things in the white spots on the lower left slice are the wasp embryos. The wasps are tiny, not like paper wasps.

Okay.... they're back outside again.

woosang
April 28th, 2013, 11:14 PM
JBB, I think the little things in the white spots on the lower left slice are the wasp embryos. The wasps are tiny, not like paper wasps.

Okay.... they're back outside again.

Better to be safe

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk 2

earthdawn
April 29th, 2013, 01:36 AM
Wow what a cool thread...

I love how the ink transforms and turns dark.

Great pictures.. thanks

jbb
April 29th, 2013, 06:54 AM
I seem to be able to get thinner lines with iron gall ink that with fountain pen ink. Does anyone know what ingredient in the ink would help that?

Uncle Red
April 29th, 2013, 10:32 AM
Probably the Gum Arabic or shellac if you used any.

jbb
April 29th, 2013, 10:55 AM
Probably the Gum Arabic or shellac if you used any.

Yes, I'm using gum Arabic. Do you know anything about adding shellac? I'm playing around with an aqueous shellac solution made of water, borax and shellac flakes. Besides very thin lines I'd like to make ink that is glossy.

Uncle Red
May 1st, 2013, 10:40 AM
Sorry, no. Try contacting Lucas from Scribal Work Shop, he has an Etsy store too and he makes historic dip pen inks as well as fountain pen inks.

woosang
May 1st, 2013, 10:42 AM
Sorry, no. Try contacting Lucas from Scribal Work Shop, he has an Etsy store too and he makes historic dip pen inks as well as fountain pen inks.

Do you know his etsy Name? Scribal workshop??

Bogon07
May 1st, 2013, 05:15 PM
Sorry, no. Try contacting Lucas from Scribal Work Shop, he has an Etsy store too and he makes historic dip pen inks as well as fountain pen inks.

Do you know his etsy Name? Scribal workshop??

Give this ScribalWorkShop by Lucas Tucker in Texas link a try:

http://www.etsy.com/shop/Scribalworkshop?ref=ss_profile

jbb
May 9th, 2013, 05:56 PM
I'm going to start a new batch of iron gall ink and also attempt to make powdered, iron gall ink.

gweddig
May 9th, 2013, 09:15 PM
I'm going to start a new batch of iron gall ink and also attempt to make powdered, iron gall ink.

Do you mean powdered iron sulfate? Or are you trying something like dehydrating the ink once its done. If its the former I can send you the rest of my iron. I have plenty. PM me if you want some.

--greg

jbb
May 9th, 2013, 09:49 PM
I'm going to start a new batch of iron gall ink and also attempt to make powdered, iron gall ink.

Do you mean powdered iron sulfate? Or are you trying something like dehydrating the ink once its done. If its the former I can send you the rest of my iron. I have plenty. PM me if you want some.

--greg

I want to try something like this recipe I found online.

http://www.evanlindquist.com/othermedia/oldinkrecipes.html
Ink Powder.For an ink powder take 1 pound nut-galls, 7 ounces copperas, and 7 ounces gum-arabic. Pulverize and mix. This amount of ink powder will make 1 gallon of good black ink. Two or three powdered cloves should be mixed with each pound of powder, to prevent moulding.
Dick's Encyclopedia of Practical Receipts and Processes, [no date] circa 1870

gweddig
March 4th, 2014, 05:24 PM
http://fpgeeks.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=10271&d=1393979047

Two months to go.

jbb
March 4th, 2014, 05:52 PM
Have your written with it yet?

gweddig
March 5th, 2014, 08:00 AM
Have your written with it yet?

Hopefully in April. Report back here when I do.

--greg

...two months pass...

http://fpgeeks.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=10952&d=1397877850

gweddig
April 18th, 2014, 09:58 PM
So this is the first writing test of what I'm calling the Hooker Oak Acorn Ink. It was made based on a recipe from Fiberdrunk (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/member.php/1909-fiberdrunk) but using some Acorns I collected at a local city park (in the West). I'm still trying to figure out what type of oak it is as I don't think it's a native. The acorns were round unlike the natives which tend to be oblong (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/77/Quercus_lobata_size.jpg). The crushed acorns were fermented for two months, boiled then combined with Ferrous Sulfate, Gum Arabic and Cloves as a preservative.

So far the ink has similar properties to the Valley Oak Iron Gall ink I made a year ago. Starts a nice thin yelllow-brown and on bleached paper, turns within a few minutes to a grey-black with undertones of blue. A quick water test indicates a high level of durability, as was expected. The second sample is on older paper with less brighteners, the ink has been on the paper longer than the bagasse sample.

The nice thing about this ink is that at the moment, it has a light fragrance of acorns. I did not notice the same on my gall based ink (I'm not sure what galls smell like either.) Will see if the cloves take over the scent after some time.


http://fpgeeks.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=10953&d=1397877877

This sample is with some 25% cotton paper I had left over from the 1990s likely little bleaching and brighteners. The ink remained the same color as it went on, it should darken over the next few days.
http://fpgeeks.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=10955&d=1397883039

Tim Payne
May 26th, 2014, 01:01 AM
It was thanks to JBBs brewing efforts I brewed my own with galls sourced from my in-laws Valley Oak trees in the north part of the Sacramento Valley in California. I used a recipe from Fiberdrunk. The hardest part was the two months of waiting for the galls to ferment. It takes longer to change color on paper without certain chemical components, still figuring this stuff out. On the Rhodia paper the change is very quick.

I just finished brewing it last week so I haven't had a lot of time to really put it through it's paces.
This is "white balanced" on Rhodia paper with a dip pen:
2083

in a Sheaffer School pen, so far after a week it hasn't clogged:
2084

Finally a progression shot of the color change:
Freshly written:
2087

After 15 Seconds:
2085

After 15 minutes
2086

Can you attatched the recipe pls? Thanks

gweddig
May 27th, 2014, 10:20 AM
Tim,
http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/2131-Homemade-Iron-Gall-Ink-(CA-Live-Oak-recipe)?highlight=Iron%20sulfate&p=28727

gweddig
August 18th, 2014, 08:41 PM
Just a quick follow up: I tested my two home made inks for pH and came up with the following:

Valley Oak IG 2.5
Hooker Oak Acorn 3.3
For reference
Household vinegar 2.49

Both recipes are from Fiberdrunk. I used a calibrated but cheap-o electronic pH tester from an internet superstore.

Had anyone else ever tested theirs? Similar results? I mainly wanted to make sure I wasn't sharing anything too corrosive.

Morgaine
September 30th, 2014, 10:43 AM
Just came across a couple of paragraphs on inks in a book on letters I am reading.. Might have to give this a go.

Lady Onogaro
January 3rd, 2015, 10:58 PM
Palimpsest published a page on Jane Austen and her pen and ink, and in it you can find a recipe for iron gall ink as written by Austen's sister-in law. Is this essentially the same recipe that VertOlive used in her experiment?
http://www.thepalimpsest.co.uk/2010/12/jane-austen-her-pen-her-ink.html

VertOlive
January 15th, 2015, 09:47 PM
Palimpsest published a page on Jane Austen and her pen and ink, and in it you can find a recipe for iron gall ink as written by Austen's sister-in law. Is this essentially the same recipe that VertOlive used in her experiment?
http://www.thepalimpsest.co.uk/2010/12/jane-austen-her-pen-her-ink.html

It's a little different. I used the Sir Isaac Newton recipe with beer, california oak galls, copperas, gum arabic,but no sugar. The other was a water based recipe from Dr Stark. They both came out beautifully, but I'd like to try the Newton recipe with Aleppo galls just to see the difference.