"Harsh Inks"

[stevekolt]

I have an Edison Menlo Pump Filler. Brian suggests not using harsh inks due to the latex diaphragm. What do you cosider to be "harsh inks"? And yes, I've reached out to Brian for clarification...

[mhosea]

I suspect Brian's position is fairly well-aligned with Richard Binder's (http://www.richardspens.com/?care=inks) .

[VertOlive]

Interested, but clueless. Please enlighten us if you get an answer?

[Chrissy]

I suspect some might consider Noodler's to be a harsh ink for a pen with a sac. :)

[KKay]

I think a Iroshizuku ink was supposed to of messed up an Edison sac once. He should put a list on his website of inks he doesn't think work well with his sacs. Some Noodler's inks probably won't be good in there either, especially Warden inks.

[FredRydr]

Harsh = highly saturated.

YMMV

Fred

[TSherbs]

If that ("harsh") is all that the website/manual states, then that is a very vague disclaimer. Unhelpful. No wonder you have questions.

[mhosea]

The vagueness is necessary. They don't really know details. It's an allusion to perceived anecdotal correlation of unexpected failures with inks like Noodler's and Private Reserve. Depending on who you ask, they might include modern IG or Japanese inks in the suspect list. While I remain a skeptic due to the poor methodology they are using to draw these conclusions, I nevertheless think the advice is well-meaning and apropos, at least for the masses without the requisite skills to replace sacs and diaphragms should the need arise prematurely for whatever reasons. I don't have many be-sac'd pens left, but I use whatever ink I want and just pay attention to the performance of the sac and whether it starts to stick. There's no corresponding thing for diaphragms, so maybe it does make a lot of sense to confine oneself to more mundane inks in such pens.

[stevekolt]

Received a reply from Brian, "Noodler’s, Private Reserve, and Iroshizuku."

[Pterodactylus]

Received a reply from Brian, "Noodler’s, Private Reserve, and Iroshizuku."

Sounds like a wild generalisation, ala good ink versus bad ink......

[TSherbs]

The vagueness is necessary. They don't really know details. It's an allusion to perceived anecdotal correlation of unexpected failures with inks like Noodler's and Private Reserve. Depending on who you ask, they might include modern IG or Japanese inks in the suspect list. While I remain a skeptic due to the poor methodology they are using to draw these conclusions, I nevertheless think the advice is well-meaning and apropos, at least for the masses without the requisite skills to replace sacs and diaphragms should the need arise prematurely for whatever reasons. I don't have many be-sac'd pens left, but I use whatever ink I want and just pay attention to the performance of the sac and whether it starts to stick. There's no corresponding thing for diaphragms, so maybe it does make a lot of sense to confine oneself to more mundane inks in such pens.

Well-meaning, probably.
Apropos, maybe.
Helpful, no.

[TSherbs]

Received a reply from Brian, "Noodler’s, Private Reserve, and Iroshizuku."

Sounds like a wild generalisation, ala good ink versus bad ink......

What in all those inks--dozens--could be chemically harmful to sacs? Can someone please be empirically specific?

[Stickler]

I was told not to use Noodlers or any of the private reserves.. and all the shimmer inks.

[KKay]

Thank you. I will write this down for future reference.


Received a reply from Brian, "Noodler’s, Private Reserve, and Iroshizuku."

[VertOlive]

Noted, thank you!

[stub]

All I got is wild anecdotal BS to add to the lot but I am 96.1782719% convinced that Iroshizuku Asa-gao melted the sacs on pretty much every snorkel pen (5 of them) I just sent to a trusted restorer.

I got an angry email and lots and lots of pictures of goo-i-fied sacs that required painstaking work with naptha (usually avoided) and dental picks, etc.

Some of these pens were recently restored, some not, so none of this is scientific or would hold up in the court of law but the common denominator here was that each pen came on board while I was in a wild hot love afair with a bottle of Asa-gao I got on a trip to Japan and I inked all but one of them with this ink at some point. I should have stuck to my usual but I trust Pilot implicitly. One of my very favorite brands.

I still love and use Iroshizuku Asa-gao, nearly the perfect medium-dark blue, but only in cartridge pens from now on. My theory is that the ink is too strongly alkaline for some types of pen sacs.

Again. Long time Sheaffer nerd. Have had more pneumatic pens than you can shake a stick at and have never before melted a sac (usually they tear). The only thing that I can think of is that a few years back I went on a Iroshizuku Asa-gao bender and I had to sweet talk an angry restorer who was probably ready charge me double for all the extra work he had to do.

If anyone has an extra pneumatic pen sac and about 2 years to wait. I got money that says keeping your snorkel or TD pen inked continuously with Asa-gao probably melts yo' sac like ice-cream on a hot day.

YMMV

[mhosea]

If anyone has an extra pneumatic pen sac and about 2 years to wait. I got money that says keeping your snorkel or TD pen inked continuously with Asa-gao probably melts yo' sac like ice-cream on a hot day.


Quite possible. I only use PVC sacs in Snorkels (Woodbin "silicone"). Ron Zorn made that recommendation, and it made good sense to me, especially since Snorkel sacs are in contact with metal (so the metal inhibitor in the latex had better be there and be right, or else it's turning to goo in time whether or not you fill it with ink). Capacity is slightly reduced, but the peace of mind is worth it.

[Armstrong]

Would Parker Blue Black be a 'safer' ink? Have a sac pen with flex nib I want to try it in.

[mhosea]

Would Parker Blue Black be a 'safer' ink? Have a sac pen with flex nib I want to try it in.

Yes, I believe that they believe that it is.

[Woody]

Unfortunately a constant and interesting debate. I had a Menlo fail with Noodler and Iroshizuku inks. I now stay away from saturated inks. I can tell you what inks are safe. Mont Blanc, Sailor, Diamine blues, Sheaffer and anything without red. I believe that dangers can be reduced with careful selection of sac material. Edison now produces a new plunger filler simply because of those sac failures.

[manoeuver]

Wow, never saw Iroshizuku on the 'avoid' list before...

[stub]

I can tell you what inks are safe.

How?

[Woody]

Yes. Iroshizuku is on the list. It's the acidity. You want to look for inks that are in the neutral range. I thought Iroshizuku would be safe as well but it did cause a primary failure.

[stub]

Wow, never saw Iroshizuku on the 'avoid' list before...

I've had few names in the vintage repair game tell me now. I'll confess I was shocked when I first heard it but now have heard it from a few places that Iroshuzuku is suspect for sac pens.

[stub]

Yes. Iroshizuku is on the list. It's the acidity.

Nope. Opposite. Some colors are exceedingly alkaline not acidic.

[TSherbs]

Yes. Iroshizuku is on the list. It's the acidity.

Nope. Opposite. Some colors are exceedingly alkaline not acidic.

This is what I mean.

Every now and again folks post warnings about sac-killing inks, but no one talks specific chemistry in any consistent manner.

Stub, if you know of a reputable analyst source that has determined specific measurable and relevant properties of inks that could affect pen longevity, please share. Things like "harshness" or "saturation" are not specific properties and may have nothing to do with an actual chemical interaction with a specific pen part (and its chemical components).

For example, if "saturation" is nothing more than the relative concentration of dye in suspension, and IF highly saturated inks are "harsh" and dangerous, chemically, to sac longevity, then are we to conclude that ALL dyes are potentially harmful? My guess is that this has nothing to do with dye concentration, but I am no chemist.

[manoeuver]

I've found in my testing that red/magenta inks are incredibly acidic, while blue inks outrageously alkaline.
The safest inks to use are of course, green.
https://cloudfront.zoro.com/product/full/Z0GJFxfo9oy.JPG

[stub]

Stub, if you know of a reputable analyst source that has determined specific measurable and relevant properties of inks that could affect pen longevity, please share.

I don't, other than what is out there on the net already (There is a list of ink phs, surprisingly hard to measure it seems, and the info on Binder's site, etc google around you can see folks have measured Iro asagao to something like a ph of 11). Look, do what you feel comfortable with. As I said I am no scientist and have nothing but super anecdotal and empirical experience based on comically small samples that would never hold up in a court of law, but when Sarj Minhas, Richard Binder, Brain Grey, Stacy Hills and a host of other people with way more experience then I converge on an answer that seems to jive with what I see, I go with that.

[TSherbs]

I've found in my testing that red/magenta inks are incredibly acidic, while blue inks outrageously alkaline.
The safest inks to use are of course, green.
https://cloudfront.zoro.com/product/full/Z0GJFxfo9oy.JPG

hahaha :applause:

[TSherbs]

Stub, if you know of a reputable analyst source that has determined specific measurable and relevant properties of inks that could affect pen longevity, please share.

I don't, other than what is out there on the net already (There is a list of ink phs, surprisingly hard to measure it seems, and the info on Binder's site, etc google around you can see folks have measured Iro asagao to something like a ph of 11). Look, do what you feel comfortable with. As I said I am no scientist and have nothing but super anecdotal and empirical experience based on comically small samples that would never hold up in a court of law, but when Sarj Minhas, Richard Binder, Brain Grey, Stacy Hills and a host of other people with way more experience then I converge on an answer that seems to jive with what I see, I go with that.

yes, I have seen those "results"

I just wondered if you knew of anything more

thx

[Hawk]

I've found in my testing that red/magenta inks are incredibly acidic, while blue inks outrageously alkaline.
The safest inks to use are of course, green.
https://cloudfront.zoro.com/product/full/Z0GJFxfo9oy.JPG

Careful, someone may take you seriously.
I guess black is both basic and acidic since it isn't in the spectrum you have. Does the paper turn white or clear with clear inks?

[stub]

yes, I have seen those "results"

I just wondered if you knew of anything more

thx

I don't and likely never will. But all have to use our judgement based on what we do know and what sources we trust have to say.

I used to be more willy nilly and just put anything in my pens but that has show me to have costs that I no longer feel I can shrug my shoulders at since I live so far away from anyone who can fix my pens, & repair stuff can't be sourced locally. The shipping costs alone are enough to make me want to be more careful and frankly I like many of the "safer" inks quite a lot anyway.

Plus I had 6 pnuematic pens go down recently including some very recently restored and the common denominator was the ink and a recent infatuation with Iroshizuku Asagao (which I still dig and happily use in my c/c pens). All super unscientific but I could imagine a test tubes filled with sac material and ink hopefully in someone's future. heh.

It is funny though how invested folks are in this being "wrong" and deconstructing the notion of hichroma inks. etc.

If you like a heavy die load and are willing to bear "possible" costs of more frequent sac replacement and picking melted goo from your pens go for it.

I have decided I love my Sheaffers more than I love Iroshizuku or Visconti Blue. Plus like I said, I can still use those inks in other pens but my Sheaffers will drink more "boring" inks for now.

[mhosea]

I don't know, but I suspect pH is not the issue one way or the other except insofar as it may impact what happens when switching between acidic and alkaline inks without adequate cleaning. I had Ballistol (pH supposedly in the 8-8.5 range) in a small dropper bottle with a black rubber bulb until I noticed that the bulb had swelled to 2 or 3 times its original size and felt "sticky". It seems to me more likely that this is the kind of action that causes sacs to fail. The question which nobody has yet answered with respect to fountain pen inks is why.

As for saturation, in my dryout experiments with various Noodler's inks, and a few others, I did not find that the increasing concentration did anything. Historically, the saturation of inks was more at issue with respect to ink flow and "clogging", not so much with sac failure. I think in this context it would be a correlation only, not the causative factor. There may be more of this, that, or the other that gets added to the ink in order to achieve good flow when saturation is high.

[stub]

1. I gather that pH *ALONE* is not the only factor but I also imagine extreme readings such as the rather severe alkaline readings of Asagao are not helpful.

2. Die load: Ron Zorn claims that diluting highly saturated inks by 10-20% noticably helps prolong sac life.

Perhaps ink saturation works at more at a "threshold" level like radiation.

I don't know, all I can do is read the sources make a judgment for myself that I deem reasonable.

You can get hit by a car crossing the street. That doesn't mean you live your whole life on one side. You take acceptable risks but I guess but in my case, since I like Waterman Blue I am good to go anyway.

[TSherbs]

..., since I like Waterman Blue I am good to go anyway.

oh Stub. You seemed so reasonable until this bit about Waterman Blue... :stop:

[TSherbs]

at some point over the last 5 years I did read a post about someone who did a study with various sacs immersed in various inks, and, if I remember right, had only one failure over something like a three-month period. But I don't recall clearly and I don't remember who or where.

I only own one pen with a sac and I only put black inks in it and the ink never stays in it for more than a month (I rotate my pens and keep them out of use more than they are in use). I am not afraid of any black ink in it cuz if it can't take 30 days of ink out of, say, a year, then the sac must be made of paper or the ink has toluene in it.

[stub]

..., since I like Waterman Blue I am good to go anyway.

oh Stub. You seemed so reasonable until this bit about Waterman Blue... :stop:

If you are hating on Waterman Florida Blue meet me after school in the back alley.

I WILL FIX YOUR WAGON, (er, snorkel)!!

:whip:

[mhosea]

9.6 pH is severe? We're talking about the pH of toothpaste or hand soap. I have no reason to doubt that Asa Gao is hard on sacs. I just don't think that's why. I think alkaline inks require different preservatives or different concentrations of preservatives. Maybe that's what it's all about, i.e. a downstream consequence of being alkaline.

[stub]

9.6 pH is severe? We're talking about the pH of toothpaste or hand soap. I have no reason to doubt that Asa Gao is hard on sacs. I just don't think that's why. I think alkaline inks require different preservatives or different concentrations of preservatives. Maybe that's what it's all about, i.e. a downstream consequence of being alkaline.

I'm no expert. I don't know.

On the other hand ever have toothpaste in your mouth a really really really long time?

[mhosea]

On the other hand ever have toothpaste in your mouth a really really really long time?

No, but I've had sac fragments in various "evil" inks for more than year in a more or less vain attempt to validate the claims these guys make on a regular basis. The only conclusion I could really draw from all that effort was that there might be something to it, but it turns out to be pretty damned hard to melt latex sacs with fountain pen inks when you're trying to. Maybe it's a "watched pot never boils" kind of thing. ;)

Your experience with Asa Gao is encouraging in its consistency, however. Once I read it, I started thinking of using the 1ml or so of Asa Gao I have left in a sample vial for another run. It might work this time. OTOH, I don't care anymore, especially since I regard Asa Gao as being pretty far down the list of favorite blues. I actually sold my bottle.

[grainweevil]

On the other hand ever have toothpaste in your mouth a really really really long time?

No, but I've had sac fragments in various "evil" inks for more than year in a more or less vain attempt to validate the claims these guys make on a regular basis. The only conclusion I could really draw from all that effort was that there might be something to it, but it turns out to be pretty damned hard to melt latex sacs with fountain pen inks when you're trying to. Maybe it's a "watched pot never boils" kind of thing. ;)

I've wondered about this, and, well, a sac in use is not wholly submerged in ink - one side of it is exposed to the air all the time, and some of the inside depending on ink level, sloshing about (technical term), and so forth. Could this make a difference?

I worry we may have unintentionally biased information to work with simply because the first, and I suspect, only question a repair person asks when faced with a problematic sac failure is "What ink did you use?" Does anyone ever ask "What pen flush did you use?" or "What's the chemical analysis of the tap water in your area?" Do we know how ink changing (effectively mixing, because you never get a pen 100% clean) or fallow periods between inkings might have an effect? It seems to me a lot of very definite conclusions are drawn on anecdotal evidence and entirely natural and understandable human bias. So while I'm certainly not wedded to defending every ink from criticism, I do find it less than satisfactory to condemn them with the information we currently have.

[stub]

because the first, and I suspect, only question a repair person asks when faced with a problematic sac failure is "What ink did you use?"

Let the record show my restorer asked and discussed many of those other questions. How do you clean your pen, where did these pens come from, who last restored them etc & co. There was a very long email back and forth about it. We concluded that nothing could be concluded for certain but one thing clearly couldn't be ruled out. The use of Iroshikuku ink was possibly the cause.


It seems to me a lot of very definite conclusions are drawn on anecdotal evidence and entirely natural and understandable human bias.

Speaking only for myself:

I think I was pretty careful on both these threads (why did we need a new thread?) NOT to draw "definite conclusions"

If I have a bias it is perhaps towards the brand I have specifically named as a possible culprit in my case b/c I would say that Pilot is far and away my most beloved modern brand and probably third only to vintage Sheaffer and Parker.

I trust and love Pilot implicitly. I would genuinly love to be found wrong in this specific case.

YMMV-ily yers,

S

[TSherbs]

On the other hand ever have toothpaste in your mouth a really really really long time?

No, but I've had sac fragments in various "evil" inks for more than year in a more or less vain attempt to validate the claims these guys make on a regular basis. The only conclusion I could really draw from all that effort was that there might be something to it, but it turns out to be pretty damned hard to melt latex sacs with fountain pen inks when you're trying to. Maybe it's a "watched pot never boils" kind of thing. ;)

Your experience with Asa Gao is encouraging in its consistency, however. Once I read it, I started thinking of using the 1ml or so of Asa Gao I have left in a sample vial for another run. It might work this time. OTOH, I don't care anymore, especially since I regard Asa Gao as being pretty far down the list of favorite blues. I actually sold my bottle.

maybe you're the guy who has posted before on this that I read about

[mhosea]

I've wondered about this, and, well, a sac in use is not wholly submerged in ink - one side of it is exposed to the air all the time, and some of the inside depending on ink level, sloshing about (technical term), and so forth. Could this make a difference?


Yes, it could make a difference, and I considered doing that. Because I had no way of knowing whether two sacs originated in the same manufacturing batch and needed a valid control for each sac in the experiment, it would have been necessary to remove the sac's end and divide the tube in half. Then one end would need to be plugged somehow to restore the tube's ability to hold ink. I tried using an air-soft pellet, but it didn't work. What I needed was a celluloid dowel (or some such) that I could cut into plugs. Then the plug could be installed with a little shellac. But then I said, screw it. I'm not buying a bunch of sacs for this. Tossing sac trimmings into sample vials and checking on them is what I'm willing to do for the benefit of the community in this matter. It exceeds what everyone else seems willing to do by leaps and bounds, and maybe a critic will be inspired to "to do it right". Anyway, I hoped that some sacs would melt and thereby obviate the need for better simulations. That didn't happen. Well, I got one and couldn't replicate it. That is an interesting result. The control fragment did not melt in that case. You might be tempted to conclude that this rules out that the sac was defective, but I'm not so sure that conclusion is even valid since sacs might be vulnerable to exposure along a continuum rather than just being good or bad.

Another thing that happens in real pens is changing inks. Also cleaning (sometimes with ammonia), often incompletely. This increases the number of variables in play. It might explain the one clear melting case that I had, as it's possible I accidentally switched it from one ink to another during one of the inspections: on several occasions I removed the fragments, rinsed them (simulates cleaning), inspected them for signs of trouble, and put them back into the vials.

[mhosea]

maybe you're the guy who has posted before on this that I read about

I posted updates here about it, some on FPN. Probably search for mhosea and Noodler's.

For me the upshot was to limit my ink choices in vacumatics, use PVC sacs in snorkels, and use whatever ink I wanted lever fillers. The reason for the difference is that vacs and snorkels are a pain to service and don't provide a way to detect an issue as it develops. Lever fillers are ridiculously easy to service (if the section has been removed at least once in recent years), and you can tell when things are starting to go south, so there's no point in being careful unless you just can't be bothered to learn how to service them.

[fountainpagan]

At the french forum someone had left Diamine Green Black (lovely ink) inside her Waterman 52, for one month. The ink corroded the sac!!! So, Diamine Green Black may be agressive to ink sacs.

[TSherbs]

maybe you're the guy who has posted before on this that I read about

I posted updates here about it, some on FPN. Probably search for mhosea and Noodler's.

For me the upshot was to limit my ink choices in vacumatics, use PVC sacs in snorkels, and use whatever ink I wanted lever fillers. The reason for the difference is that vacs and snorkels are a pain to service and don't provide a way to detect an issue as it develops. Lever fillers are ridiculously easy to service (if the section has been removed at least once in recent years), and you can tell when things are starting to go south, so there's no point in being careful unless you just can't be bothered to learn how to service them.
Thanks for these efforts, Mike.

[grainweevil]

Tossing sac trimmings into sample vials and checking on them is what I'm willing to do for the benefit of the community in this matter. It exceeds what everyone else seems willing to do by leaps and bounds, and maybe a critic will be inspired to "to do it right".

It is indeed more than most, including myself, are willing to do, and I for one appreciate it, Mike. I'm simply interested in what other factors may be in play, and airing the thought in hopes it might provoke further fruitful investigation.

Stub, I'm not pointing fingers at you or anyone. Just throwing out some musings that rattle about in my brain whenever the "evil ink" debate comes up.

[Paddler]

Over the years, I have restored several tens (60 or so) of pens, most of which use sacs, and have saved the sac trimmings in the cigar box where I keep new sacs and shellac flakes, etc. I have identified an "evil ink" and have kept a bottle of it just to aggravate myself. I am going to drop those trimmings into the bottle of devil's ink and see what does betide. I will keep all youse informed of the outcome. It should take only a year or so.

[Armstrong]

Looks like I need to find some Sheaffer ink then. Thanks folks.

[pajaro]

Diamine green-black used to be my favorite color. I used to like the Pilot Ironowhatever turquoise. I used to like red and purple. I suppose I could like them in converters or cartridges.

[stub]

Looks like I need to find some Sheaffer ink then. Thanks folks.



I honestly like Skrip Blue and Skrip Blue Black isn't bad either.

[fountainpagan]

Diamine green-black used to be my favorite color. I used to like the Pilot Ironowhatever turquoise. I used to like red and purple. I suppose I could like them in converters or cartridges.

I love it. It is great for drawing. I only use it in cartridges and converters, or cheap chinese pens.

[FredRydr]

There are several variables that must be controlled for such a test. Use new sacs to eliminate age issues. I suggest the large ones for plenty of inside surface area. Then use each type of sac (latex, silicon, etc.) and from the different manufacturers in order to account for variations in content or process. Then choose the inks. How many sacs of inks are we up to, now? Do we add a humidifier to replicate a breast pocket? Perhaps Pen World would pay for an article and photographs to subsidize this project. (Or, the sac and ink industries might put pressure on Pen World to boycott any such coverage! :))

Fred

[Woody]

I don't know, but I suspect pH is not the issue one way or the other except insofar as it may impact what happens when switching between acidic and alkaline inks without adequate cleaning. I had Ballistol (pH supposedly in the 8-8.5 range) in a small dropper bottle with a black rubber bulb until I noticed that the bulb had swelled to 2 or 3 times its original size and felt "sticky". It seems to me more likely that this is the kind of action that causes sacs to fail. The question which nobody has yet answered with respect to fountain pen inks is why.

As for saturation, in my dryout experiments with various Noodler's inks, and a few others, I did not find that the increasing concentration did anything. Historically, the saturation of inks was more at issue with respect to ink flow and "clogging", not so much with sac failure. I think in this context it would be a correlation only, not the causative factor. There may be more of this, that, or the other that gets added to the ink in order to achieve good flow when saturation is high.

Hey Mike. Weren't you doing some time sensitive, long range experiments on clips of sacs suspended in different inks? Perhaps someone else, but I thought it was you.

[Woody]

Looks like I need to find some Sheaffer ink then. Thanks folks.


I honestly like Skrip Blue and Skrip Blue Black isn't bad either.

Waterman is extremely safe too.

[stub]

Hey Mike. Weren't you doing some time sensitive, long range experiments on clips of sacs suspended in different inks? Perhaps someone else, but I thought it was you.

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/242452-what-liquefied-this-sac/

[stub]

Looks like I need to find some Sheaffer ink then. Thanks folks.


I honestly like Skrip Blue and Skrip Blue Black isn't bad either.

Waterman is extremely safe too.



..., since I like Waterman Blue I am good to go anyway.

oh Stub. You seemed so reasonable until this bit about Waterman Blue... :stop:


. .
.

[mhosea]

Hey Mike. Weren't you doing some time sensitive, long range experiments on clips of sacs suspended in different inks? Perhaps someone else, but I thought it was you.

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/242452-what-liquefied-this-sac/

That was what started it all, the extraordinary claim that Noodler's Black had "obviously" melted a latex sac in a matter of minutes. There were some updates here:

https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/16300-Noodler-s-Experiments-Terminated?p=171334&viewfull=1#post171334

https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/2405-Prejudice-Against-Noodler-s-Ink?highlight=latex+noodler%27s

[TSherbs]

Looks like I need to find some Sheaffer ink then. Thanks folks.


I honestly like Skrip Blue and Skrip Blue Black isn't bad either.

Waterman is extremely safe too.



..., since I like Waterman Blue I am good to go anyway.

oh Stub. You seemed so reasonable until this bit about Waterman Blue... :stop:


. .
.

Hey, different strokes

[mhosea]

I haven't loaded a pen with Waterman Blue in quite awhile. My recollection is that it looks great when it's fresh on the page but loses something by the next day. I use Waterman Purple with some regularity, though. Awhile back I got dozens of purple samples and chose my favorite. Turns out, oddly enough, that Waterman Purple is it.

[stub]

Waterman purple is also a fantastic ink. Overlooked. Ever time I have it loaded in a pen and someone tries it they are like, " is this the new sparkletastic radioactive organic free range 1367 Limited Release Japanese Department Store Special noodle pony whatever ink"?

Nope. Waterman Purple.

[grainweevil]

Definitely needs to be more love for Waterman Purple. Although Serenity Blue is my go-to for pen testing, and I recall one vintage pen being such a gusher I ended up with copious sheen from it. Which was fun.

[Jerome Tarshis]

I haven't loaded a pen with Waterman Blue in quite awhile. My recollection is that it looks great when it's fresh on the page but loses something by the next day. I use Waterman Purple with some regularity, though.

This. Or +1. I'm sure other people have had totally different experiences, but on the paper I'm most likely to use, Waterman blue goes down with what I think is a beautiful color. Then, all too soon, things go downhill. The ink seems to fade rapidly without any exposure to light. A physicist friend, not inclined to go along with Web folklore, reported to me that entire notebooks turned to blank paper in far less than a year. For an ink he'd used for recording data, that wasn't good news.

[TSherbs]

I haven't loaded a pen with Waterman Blue in quite awhile. My recollection is that it looks great when it's fresh on the page but loses something by the next day. I use Waterman Purple with some regularity, though.

This. Or +1. I'm sure other people have had totally different experiences, but on the paper I'm most likely to use, Waterman blue goes down with what I think is a beautiful color. Then, all too soon, things go downhill. The ink seems to fade rapidly without any exposure to light. A physicist friend, not inclined to go along with Web folklore, reported to me that entire notebooks turned to blank paper in far less than a year. For an ink he'd used for recording data, that wasn't good news.

word

I so want to like this color, and then it just craps out as it dries over a few hours.

[stub]

Odd.

I just looked over a half dozen notebooks/research/whatever dating back to 2011. MD, L!fe, Conifer, Rhodia, CF, L1917 and a TON of Tsubame University notebooks (love those!).

I use a lot of Waterman Fl. Blue in my vintage pens.

My words are all still there. As spectacularly uninteresting as ever.

Now I do also used Sailor Ultramarine, Aurora Blue, MB Royal Blue and other similar blues so this isn't science but I can see some pretty clear Waterman pages and they all look fine to me.

I spent all week with the Sheaffer PFM III I bought on here from Kyle inked up with Waterman Florida Blue and a Sheaffer Admiral with Waterman Fl. Blue. I made a note of that in this week's notes ("hey this is Waterman Fl. Blue dummy").

If I am still alive in a few years I'LL CHECK BACK WITH YOU. Maybe it does fade. If it does, I guess I am not seeing the dramatic disappearance others are. But my books stay closed and on the shelf when not in use so that maybe helps.

[southpaw52]

I want someone to explain what the PH level in ink's have in regards to harshness.

[stub]

I want to clarify what the PH level in ink's role in regards to harshness.

Please go ahead and clarify.

[southpaw52]

I want to clarify what the PH level in ink's role in regards to harshness.

Please go ahead and clarify.

Sorry I have edited my post, I am looking for an answer to the PH level in regards to harshness.

[mhosea]

After the discussion about it here, I inked up a wet Parker 51 with Waterman Blue. I like it, but it does go down with a crisp violet "edginess" and dries to a more "plain" blue. I like both the fresh and settled colors, but they are a little different.

[grainweevil]

Odd.

I just looked over a half dozen notebooks/research/whatever dating back to 2011. MD, L!fe, Conifer, Rhodia, CF, L1917 and a TON of Tsubame University notebooks (love those!).

I use a lot of Waterman Fl. Blue in my vintage pens.

My words are all still there. As spectacularly uninteresting as ever.

Now I do also used Sailor Ultramarine, Aurora Blue, MB Royal Blue and other similar blues so this isn't science but I can see some pretty clear Waterman pages and they all look fine to me.

I spent all week with the Sheaffer PFM III I bought on here from Kyle inked up with Waterman Florida Blue and a Sheaffer Admiral with Waterman Fl. Blue. I made a note of that in this week's notes ("hey this is Waterman Fl. Blue dummy").

If I am still alive in a few years I'LL CHECK BACK WITH YOU. Maybe it does fade. If it does, I guess I am not seeing the dramatic disappearance others are. But my books stay closed and on the shelf when not in use so that maybe helps.

My experience has been much the same, Stub. I was wondering if the paper in the "disappearing ink" notebooks might be the cause, rather than the ink.

[fountainpenkid]

High saturation alone isn't the issue, from what I can see. I've been using the supersaturated Organics Studio Walden Pond and Nitrogen Royal Blue in my Pelikan 400 and Soennecken 111 and so far have had no issues with barrel staining, clogging, or hard starting (O.S seems to make the best-formulated inks out there). I think the dye used along with the other liquid components probably play a more important role.

[Cyril]

My pens are modern pens with converters and I believe any ink noncarbon residues etc will cause any flowing problem slightly in longer use.But with the ink like India caligraphy ink theey are more harmful.So I am avoiding them. Even shimmy ink like some diamine Ink cause this clogging I read.

[Chrissy]

I want someone to explain what the PH level in ink's have in regards to harshness.

I was going to try to answer your query about acid, PH neutral and alkaline inks, but I think Richard Binder does a perfect job of explaining it in his article Here (http://www.richardspens.com/?page=ref/care/inks.htm)

Also, once you have read the article about PH and inks, you can then check his report on the PH values of more than 60 inks Here (http://www.richardspens.com/?page=ref/care/inks.htm)

Happy reading. :)

According to Richard Binder, Waterman ink is not a harsh ink, but iron-gall ink is. This is why I don't use iron-gall ink in any of my pens. This is what Richard says about it:

Quote: I’ve left one particular type of ink until the end. Iron gall ink was invented more than 1500 years ago. It was used by innumerable nameless scribes to copy sacred manuscripts; by great secular writers and thinkers such as Voltaire, Shakespeare, and Leibniz; and by ordinary people. When fountain pens came into existence, iron gall ink made the leap to the new technology, and it is still in use today because it is a very permanent ink. But it has a couple of drawbacks. First, but of less serious consequence for most of us, is its reputation for destroying, over the course of centuries, the paper on which it is used.[2] Of more concern to you, as a fountain pen user, is that it is rather acidic: it can corrode metal pen parts such as steel nibs and cartridge nipples, and plated trim rings — every part that comes in contact with it. Only gold alloys are safe from its ravages; if your pen features a gold nib and has no other metal parts that are continually exposed to the ink (such as a metal cartridge nipple), you can use iron gall inks such as Montblanc Blue-Black and Diamine Registrar’s ink with impunity.

You should note that iron gall ink is not the only acidic ink that is currently available. Your best course, if you’re concerned about the pH of your inks, is to look for inks that advertise neutral-pH formulas.

[mhosea]

Richard's treatment is a little overblown. It's not that I would recommend using IG ink in a pen with steel in contact with the ink, but in fact, I have kept just such a pen inked with an IG ink on my desktop at work for years with no apparent ill effects. I'll bet the plating underneath the nib next to the feed is gone, but a lot of inks will do that. I don't see any "ravages".

[Chemyst]

I want someone to explain what the PH level in ink's have in regards to harshness.

Minimal to none.

[Chrissy]

I want someone to explain what the PH level in ink's have in regards to harshness.
Richard Binder explains what the PH level in inks have in regards to harshness in his article about Inks: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly (http://www.richardspens.com/?page=ref/care/inks.htm)
It's well worth reading. :)

[Sammyo]

I've found in my testing that red/magenta inks are incredibly acidic, while blue inks outrageously alkaline.
The safest inks to use are of course, green.
https://cloudfront.zoro.com/product/full/Z0GJFxfo9oy.JPG
This made me laugh out loud!