To Soak Or Not To Soak: That Is The Question!

[Deb]

I've never understood why people soak vintage pens. Water just isn't very good for hard rubber, celluloid or casein and it's certainly not very good for the metal parts pens contain. Once you get water into a barrel or cap it's hard to get it back out again. I'm not sure what the soaking is intended to achieve. It won't soften glue or shellac. It can dissolve hardened dry ink but there are other ways of dealing with that.

I've repaired thousands of pens and I don't soak anything. Tight sections? Use heat. I invested in a heat gun long ago and it's one of my most frequently used tools. For safe disassembly and reassembly, it's an absolute essential. Though I don't remove nibs and feeds unless I have to, using a bulb to get water through is enough to allow safe removal with the knock-out block. Any hardened ink can be removed from the section and feed then, using cotton buds and stiff brushes.

Removing old ink from caps and loosening crusted-in clip screws calls for naphtha. Unlike water, naphtha leaves no trace behind and doesn't start metal parts rusting. As soaking is so prevalent a process in pen repair, perhaps I'm missing something. Convince me!

[Scooby921]

Convenience

Warm water or water with some light detergent soap is more readily accessible to most people. Professionals have their ways and proper tools. The average person makes due with what they can access.

Warm water will loosen up some glues and shellac. Liquid water won't get hotter than 100°C, so you can't accidentally melt plastic resin pens. You can also put a thermometer in a pot and heat it to an exact temp so you aren't always doing everything at boiling point. A thermometer, pot, and water are far cheaper than a heat gun with digital temperature control. Dipping a pen into a warm pot of water surrounds the pen in an equal temp on all sides/surfaces, so you aren't creating localized hot spots with a heat gun as a directional source.

Water will slowly dissolve / reconstitute dried up ink in the feed of an old pen. Yes there is concern if you're submerging a complete pen and water gets in past the button or lever mechanism and fills the barrel. That's just someone who needs common sense. Yes water will lead to corrosion, but the rate at which it happens is slow, and even slower while things remain submerged. People who know what they are doing and care for the item they are cleaning / repairing will also dry things off when finished, so the oxidizer is no longer present. A can of compressed air is cheap and effective at blowing air out of a feed, barrel, section, or the fine crevices of a lever or button mechanism and spring bar. Regardless of what you use to clean the proper end result leaves little to no cleaning solution behind. If one cares to prevent rust there are plenty of metal treatments out there which clean, remove rust, and protect afterward with very little residue.

Also, water and rubber are fine. If water were bad for rubber they wouldn't use rubber to make tires, fluid hoses, bushings and mounts for vehicle components, shoes, gaskets, o-rings, inflatable life boats, etc. I used to design and manufacture rubber products for automobiles. I've run a lot of tests on a lot of different rubber compounds. Rubber reacts far worse to oil and solvents. Even the air (ozone) is worse than water. Sunlight and ozone are what cause it to harden with age and crack.


So yeah, there is the proper professional way of doing things which will always yield the best result. But it is seldom the only way of doing things and the alternatives aren't always bad.

[Deb]

Hi Scooby921,

What's this "professional" shenanigans? I don't have a degree in pen repair. I didn't take any classes. So far as I'm aware it's well short of being a profession. I decided to try to repair a pen one day. It worked. So I did another and another and the years went by. I made mistakes along the way so now I offer what I've learned so that others don't need to make the same mistakes.

Most people have hair dryers. I used one for quite a while, and not for drying my hair. They are perfectly adequate for many of the pen repair tasks. Warm water is an extremely inefficient way of loosening shellac and most glues. Why do that, when most people have a good heat source at hand?

I've seen the consequences of soaking pens. Fixed clips, pressure bars, circlips, all manner of metal parts rusted unnecessarily through bad practice. Water is very good at lying in concealed places so you think you've got it all out, but you haven't. And there was no need to put it there in the first place.

"Yes water will lead to corrosion, but the rate at which it happens is slow, and even slower while things remain submerged"

I'm not sure what you're trying to say there. I agree that corrosion is slow but I'm suggesting using methods that will prevent it from starting.

The problem with hard rubber is that water is the final process in making it fade. Admittedly it's exposure to light and heat that start the process but so long as the pen is kept out of water it will usually retain its original colour. Soaking hard rubber components is absolutely the wrong thing to do. Always.

[Jon Szanto]

Convenience

It won't seem so convenient when you ruin a good pen.


Also, water and rubber are fine.

Not vintage HR pens. When people bandy about info like the above, there is ample opportunity for someone new to the hobby to see it and assume they can just plunk that sucker in some water for a good soak. See Point #1.

[lsmith42]

It won't seem so convenient when you ruin a good pen.


Also, water and rubber are fine.

Not vintage HR pens. When people bandy about info like the above, there is ample opportunity for someone new to the hobby to see it and assume they can just plunk that sucker in some water for a good soak. See Point #1.

Jon... you are absolutely no fun at all...

[AzJon]

I have a Sheaffer Senior Radeite that had a suuuuper stuck section. Tried heat with the hair dryer. No dice. I was definitely getting into the possibly too hot range. Came back to it a few months later, this time I left it in just enough water to submerge it just above the section. In a few days I pulled the section out by hand with almost no trouble.

I also happen to know a very reputable pen restorer that soaks Sheaffers in Rapidoeze to get Triumph nibs apart. Claims to have never broken a single pen during a repair because, in his words, "you just have to have patience." He said he would set it for a day, then try to remove things. Then two days. At that point, he would wait one week. Still nothing. Two week. As long as it took to take things apart. I've soaked as long as it needs ever since then with no negative consequences.

[Deb]

I have a Sheaffer Senior Radeite that had a suuuuper stuck section. Tried heat with the hair dryer. No dice. I was definitely getting into the possibly too hot range. Came back to it a few months later, this time I left it in just enough water to submerge it just above the section. In a few days I pulled the section out by hand with almost no trouble.

I also happen to know a very reputable pen restorer that soaks Sheaffers in Rapidoeze to get Triumph nibs apart. Claims to have never broken a single pen during a repair because, in his words, "you just have to have patience." He said he would set it for a day, then try to remove things. Then two days. At that point, he would wait one week. Still nothing. Two week. As long as it took to take things apart. I've soaked as long as it needs ever since then with no negative consequences.

I've never failed in using heat to extract sections from barrels. Radite, so far as I remember, is a form of pyroxylin. I wouldn't immerse that in water. No telling what the long term effects might be. I wouldn't have any need to do it anyway.

I absolutely agree about having patience. It often takes time and very careful work to deal with fragile pens.

[AzJon]

I have to say: this is the first thread discussion I've seen that advocates, rather strictly, against soaking a pen. Like, yeah, don't soak the whole pen in water, but up to the feed is 100% a-ok, and above the section fine for a bit if you're fixing the pen. Honestly, as long as the pen isn't hard rubber, I would be more concerned with making a mistake using heat, particularly on a Sheaffer. The temperature where the shellac softens and the barrel material permanently warps is a fairly thin margin. Have I misunderstood that the danger of soaking (hard rubber not included) has more to do with risk of getting internal metal components of the filling system wet and thereby risking corrosion and breakage?

[Deb]

None of the materials that older pens – especially pre-world War II – are made from take immersion well. Also, many pens made from other materials had hard rubber sections. Naturally, there is always concern about the sadly common practice of soaking caps to remove encrusted ink deposits.

I agree that there is the risk of causing damage with heat but that's where care and caution must be applied until one becomes more confident through experience.

In writing my original post I had two ideas in mind: to express my concern about a practice which I believe to be damaging to older pens and which I frequently see recommended. Secondly, as one of the SEVEN (or however many it is now) I like to see interesting debate which may go some way to outweigh the predominance of sales posts in FPG.

[Seattleite]

To soak or not to soak is not the question. When to soak, what to soak, how long to soak and in what to soak, seems more accurate. I'll even accept if to soak, as
i don't think it is always necessary. A luke warm dilute soap soak with nib down, up to the section join on anything but a Casein bodied, or metal overlay pen is probably not going to hurt and often will help. I am a believer that loosening up whatever goo lurks within, reduces friction and enhances even heat distribution to the join, thus easing stresses during disassembly. Minimizing heat is always a good thing for both the long term health of the pen and in avoiding the immediate catastrophe of a melted mess, as others have noted.

Deb, you voice some maxims that are not helpful, in my mind. One that jumps out is "Water just isn't very good for hard rubber, celluloid or casein and it's certainly not very good for the metal parts pens contain." There are more exceptions to your statements, than there are truths, I think. This absolutism does not serve the community well, at all. I'll toss out a couple of thoughts...

- Exposure to water does not harm celluloid aka Radite, that I am aware of. Think of Vacumatic barrels, and all of those visulated celluloid sections. These parts were designed to be in direct contact with water based ink for their entire working lives. They used to make dentures out of celluloid.
- Water damage to hard rubber is limited to the possible discoloration of UV damaged surfaces, as mentioned elsewhere. There are times where a little easily removed discoloration may be a small price to pay for a safe disassembly.
- Casein? Keep it dry.
- Metal? Which metal? A carbon steel pressure bar spring - of course. A gold alloy Snorkel tube.....
Making such broad-brush statements does little to help collectors build the solid body of materials knowledge that will lead them to successful restorations or of applying their skills and knowledge to more involved projects.

I would direct people away from grasping on to absolutes. Learn some solid material and process fundamentals, how to apply them, and learn when to stop and ask questions specific to the pen in hand. The person who has restored "that exact pen" can offer credible advice that usually leads to a success. Most "ruined" pens that I hear about are the result of someone asking or knowing "how", then applying only that procedure to every pen that they encounter. In a way, being told categorically not to do something, does as much harm by unnecessarily making verboten, viable options; options that might be helpful for a given situation. Deb, what works for you, works for you - thousands of times.:) Won't argue with that. I will argue with an "Always/Never" mindset.

I am not in the pen business. No skin in the game, other than sharing a common interest and offering a different perspective and approach that, I hope, supports people in their efforts to hunt and restore their own pens. I'm not interested in Thanks, or thanking - not looking to be followed. I don't even know what Rep Power means, and don't haunt the classifieds. If I am wrong, show me the way! :angel:

Bob

[penwash]

I soak nibs up to section in water. Just water, and cool water from the tap. And never soap, ammonia, or whatever else that is not in a household tap water. I live in an area where the water is not hard, so it never leaves any residue or whatnot.

As to why? This wicks out hard gunky inks from feeds, nibs, and sections, and cleans them too. In a lot of cases, it makes sections detachable from the barrel easily without having to resort to heat. And in a few cases, it saved me from misapplying force to a section that unknowingly is threaded to the barrel. <--- mystery pens.

Also, unexposed to prolonged UV hard rubber is fine in water, I've soaked ebonite section and feeds in water for weeks and they never get discolored. Think about it, if hard rubber always discolored when touching water, why then we have black feeds and section insides? Aren't they almost always inky <---- ink contains water.

The only things that I would not soak are hard rubber caps and barrels. Because I have no idea whether they have been exposed to UV sufficiently to discolor or not.

[penwash]

.... I would direct people away from grasping on to absolutes. Learn some solid material and process fundamentals, how to apply them, and learn when to stop and ask questions specific to the pen in hand...

Bob

Well-said! A lot of young people asked me how to get started with pen restoration, and I always told them, get ready to think, a lot :)

[Jon Szanto]

Here's my take on this, following Bob's post:

I'll wager that most everyone in the thread has spent time doing pen work, from just a few and new at it, to people like Deb who is seasoned and restores for later sale (as well as other reasons). Bob posts a long, in-depth and well-reasoned counter to some of the basic OP claims. I don't find much fault there, except...

What I constantly encounter - online - and do all that I can to stop is the rapid spreading of misinformation and partial information. While there is a steady stream of n00bs on FPN, I don't hang there much, so my interaction is mostly with startups on Reddit. All it takes is one mention of "yeah, just soak that pen overnight" and some of them are off to the races. I'll insert here that while many of us consider soaking only the section and nib, when that phrase pops up you won't believe how often they just drop the pen in a glass of water. Of great difficult is that many come at this after buying and using a few modern fountain pens, and come from a background of ballpoints and gel pens. Unused to the occasional ink drop or splat, many are neat freaks that immediately disassemble the pen down to every component part just to clean between re-inking!

If I'm going to be extra-cautious when giving out advice online to an audience that is NOT into studying up, doing patient research on the net and in books all the while, I am most certainly going to err on the side of don't do something. Yes, it's true: all things being equal, absolutes are usually not a good way to go. OTOH, take into account who the advice is for. All it takes is one YouTube video of a guy fixing a pen, using techniques that would curl the hair of any sane restoration person, and legions of new recruits go "Hot damn, I'm gonna fix me a pen!"

I don't mind a little caution, and when someone says "yeah, if you soak that it will come apart easily" is a recipe for a kid dropping a swell old pen into a bin of water and that's all she wrote. I think we can all be careful in this regard.

My $0.02.

[Deb]

Also, unexposed to prolonged UV hard rubber is fine in water,

I already covered that point, further up the thread. Now, how do you tell which hard rubber hasn't had prolonged exposure to UV over the last 90 years. Because that's a really clever trick.

[Deb]

In my original post I asked to be convinced that there was some merit in soaking pens. Nothing has been said that sounds convincing to me. Now I'm being told by penwash he only soaks up to the section. I don't see any problem with that - he's only soaking the nib and the feed. Mind you, by time he has set up an arrangement to precisely dangle a pen in water, I'd have restored a few using heat. By time his jig has wicked old ink out of a section and feed I would have moved on to the following week or maybe fortnight. That just seems wilfully inefficient to me.

Seattleite tells me that a little easily removed discoloration of hard rubber isn't a problem. Agreed. You can abrade it off, paint it or apply some gunk that may have unfortunate effects some way down the line. And, in the meantime, I'm working on another pen or two. With heat.

How about if you take some of that time you waste and learn to use heat properly on scrap parts? It might take half a day at the most. And I see no "absolutism" in what I'm saying. It's just what I've learned from years of restoring pens.

[kirchh]

I use selective soaking when appropriate; it takes almost no time at all to get the front end of a pen soaking. A few seconds, perhaps, if you work on pens with some frequency, and while it's soaking, I can work on other pens, of course, so it's hardly "willfully inefficient." As noted, it's inaccurate that all materials used to make pens will be damaged if in contact with water-based liquids, or that they were not intended to be in prolonged contact with such liquids. Immersing an entire vintage hard rubber pen is generally a bad idea, and unnecessary, due to latent surface damage, but an experienced repairperson can determine whether soaking the forward portion is safe. As for "Radite, so far as I remember, is a form of pyroxylin. I wouldn't immerse that in water. No telling what the long term effects might be," as someone else observed, some celluloid pens hold ink directly in the barrel, and immersion in plain water for a few hours has no long-term effects on celluloid.

As for, "I see no 'absolutism' in what I'm saying." Well: "Soaking hard rubber components is absolutely the wrong thing to do. Always;" "Water just isn't very good for... celluloid;" "there was no need to put water there in the first place."

--Daniel

[Jon Szanto]

I'd just like to say that it is nice to see Daniel contributing - you haven't been around much!

[penwash]

Also, unexposed to prolonged UV hard rubber is fine in water,

I already covered that point, further up the thread. Now, how do you tell which hard rubber hasn't had prolonged exposure to UV over the last 90 years. Because that's a really clever trick.

I don't know :)

But I am betting on the high possibility that sections and feeds on pens that looks like it's worth restoring, haven't been exposed to much UV. So far I haven't lost that bet yet.

Having said that, I've seen a few olive-colored sections before I even soak it.

[penwash]

In my original post I asked to be convinced that there was some merit in soaking pens. Nothing has been said that sounds convincing to me. Now I'm being told by penwash he only soaks up to the section. I don't see any problem with that - he's only soaking the nib and the feed. Mind you, by time he has set up an arrangement to precisely dangle a pen in water, I'd have restored a few using heat. By time his jig has wicked old ink out of a section and feed I would have moved on to the following week or maybe fortnight. That just seems wilfully inefficient to me.

Seattleite tells me that a little easily removed discoloration of hard rubber isn't a problem. Agreed. You can abrade it off, paint it or apply some gunk that may have unfortunate effects some way down the line. And, in the meantime, I'm working on another pen or two. With heat.

How about if you take some of that time you waste and learn to use heat properly on scrap parts? It might take half a day at the most. And I see no "absolutism" in what I'm saying. It's just what I've learned from years of restoring pens.

I maybe slow and inefficient, but I'm having fun ... slowly and inefficiently :baby:

[Deb]

Well that's fine.

[Deb]

Also, unexposed to prolonged UV hard rubber is fine in water,

I already covered that point, further up the thread. Now, how do you tell which hard rubber hasn't had prolonged exposure to UV over the last 90 years. Because that's a really clever trick.

I don't know :)

But I am betting on the high possibility that sections and feeds on pens that looks like it's worth restoring, haven't been exposed to much UV. So far I haven't lost that bet yet.

Having said that, I've seen a few olive-colored sections before I even soak it.

I think you might lose a few of those bets. Shiny black one minute, greeny-grey the next.

[penwash]

Also, unexposed to prolonged UV hard rubber is fine in water,

I already covered that point, further up the thread. Now, how do you tell which hard rubber hasn't had prolonged exposure to UV over the last 90 years. Because that's a really clever trick.

I don't know :)

But I am betting on the high possibility that sections and feeds on pens that looks like it's worth restoring, haven't been exposed to much UV. So far I haven't lost that bet yet.

Having said that, I've seen a few olive-colored sections before I even soak it.

I think you might lose a few of those bets. Shiny black one minute, greeny-grey the next.

It's a calculated risk, not a blind bet, there is a difference.

And I just thought of one case where heat will surely destroy your project. Conklin Nozac. If you heat that barrel, it'll shrink, and no, prying out the threaded section out of a shrink barrel like that won't end in a happy note. Trust me on this, I learn it the hard way. And I'm pretty sure the Nozac is not the only pen that will do this, it's just the most popular and expensive.

[kirchh]

I'd just like to say that it is nice to see Daniel contributing - you haven't been around much!

Well, thanks, Jon. I just haven't seen all that much I wanted to add to, frankly.

--Daniel

[Deb]

Also, unexposed to prolonged UV hard rubber is fine in water,

I already covered that point, further up the thread. Now, how do you tell which hard rubber hasn't had prolonged exposure to UV over the last 90 years. Because that's a really clever trick.

I don't know :)

But I am betting on the high possibility that sections and feeds on pens that looks like it's worth restoring, haven't been exposed to much UV. So far I haven't lost that bet yet.

Having said that, I've seen a few olive-colored sections before I even soak it.

I think you might lose a few of those bets. Shiny black one minute, greeny-grey the next.

It's a calculated risk, not a blind bet, there is a difference.

And I just thought of one case where heat will surely destroy your project. Conklin Nozac. If you heat that barrel, it'll shrink, and no, prying out the threaded section out of a shrink barrel like that won't end in a happy note. Trust me on this, I learn it the hard way. And I'm pretty sure the Nozac is not the only pen that will do this, it's just the most popular and expensive.

I think it absolutely is a blind bet. There's no way to tell which nice, shiny BHR pen has been exposed to UV.

As a restorer of primarily British pens, Nozacs don't come my way. I can only speak about what I have experience of.

[Deb]

I use selective soaking when appropriate; it takes almost no time at all to get the front end of a pen soaking. A few seconds, perhaps, if you work on pens with some frequency, and while it's soaking, I can work on other pens, of course, so it's hardly "willfully inefficient." As noted, it's inaccurate that all materials used to make pens will be damaged if in contact with water-based liquids, or that they were not intended to be in prolonged contact with such liquids. Immersing an entire vintage hard rubber pen is generally a bad idea, and unnecessary, due to latent surface damage, but an experienced repairperson can determine whether soaking the forward portion is safe. As for "Radite, so far as I remember, is a form of pyroxylin. I wouldn't immerse that in water. No telling what the long term effects might be," as someone else observed, some celluloid pens hold ink directly in the barrel, and immersion in plain water for a few hours has no long-term effects on celluloid.

As for, "I see no 'absolutism' in what I'm saying." Well: "Soaking hard rubber components is absolutely the wrong thing to do. Always;" "Water just isn't very good for... celluloid;" "there was no need to put water there in the first place."

--Daniel

I'll give you some of that, for the sake of avoiding the dread accusation of absolutism :-) However, what is the situation in which you would dangle the front end of a pen in water rather than using the methods I have described?

[Deb]

I use selective soaking when appropriate; it takes almost no time at all to get the front end of a pen soaking. A few seconds, perhaps, if you work on pens with some frequency, and while it's soaking, I can work on other pens, of course, so it's hardly "willfully inefficient." As noted, it's inaccurate that all materials used to make pens will be damaged if in contact with water-based liquids, or that they were not intended to be in prolonged contact with such liquids. Immersing an entire vintage hard rubber pen is generally a bad idea, and unnecessary, due to latent surface damage, but an experienced repairperson can determine whether soaking the forward portion is safe. As for "Radite, so far as I remember, is a form of pyroxylin. I wouldn't immerse that in water. No telling what the long term effects might be," as someone else observed, some celluloid pens hold ink directly in the barrel, and immersion in plain water for a few hours has no long-term effects on celluloid.

As for, "I see no 'absolutism' in what I'm saying." Well: "Soaking hard rubber components is absolutely the wrong thing to do. Always;" "Water just isn't very good for... celluloid;" "there was no need to put water there in the first place."

--Daniel

I'll give you some of that, for the sake of avoiding the dread accusation of absolutism :-) However, what is the situation in which you would dangle the front end of a pen in water rather than using the methods I have described?

Replying to myself here: On second thoughts, I won't give you any of that, Daniel. Dunking hard rubber parts or pens in water just isn't clever and there's no need to do it. As regards vintage plastics, I've come across several reports of them becoming clouded from immersion. I have no experience of it myself, not being in the habit of soaking pens but it's out there. As regards the accusation of absolutism, I laugh at it. It's a diversion made by people with no better way to press their argument.

[AzJon]

Unused to the occasional ink drop or splat, many are neat freaks that immediately disassemble the pen down to every component part just to clean between re-inking!

I personally lay that blame solely at the feet of one particularly active video making member of the pen community that tends to be the first contact for pen newbies.






Also, unexposed to prolonged UV hard rubber is fine in water,

I already covered that point, further up the thread. Now, how do you tell which hard rubber hasn't had prolonged exposure to UV over the last 90 years. Because that's a really clever trick.

I don't know :)

But I am betting on the high possibility that sections and feeds on pens that looks like it's worth restoring, haven't been exposed to much UV. So far I haven't lost that bet yet.

Having said that, I've seen a few olive-colored sections before I even soak it.

I think you might lose a few of those bets. Shiny black one minute, greeny-grey the next.

Personally, with how well Mark Hoovers magic "deoxidizer" appears to work, any fear over discoloring hard rubber from water exposure, particularly if you are going to bother with a full restoration, seems to be wholly unmerited.

Why soak? I'll mention it again: because multiple attempt to open a Sheaffer Radite using heat left zero change getting the section out. Further force in attempting to pull the section out would risk breaking, or if the material was softened a bit from the heat, warping the material. Soaking it in cold, filtered water for a few days just above the section let me, with very little force, remove the section. And, as you can see here, obviously ruined the black section and the barrel body.
https://i.imgur.com/kF3BKFL.jpg

Too much heat was a great risk for the pen breaking and soaking allowed for the gentle removal of the section.

[Deb]

That's an explanation for one pen. Obviously, I can't argue with your experience in that case. I have no doubt it was the right thing to do when heat had failed to do the job for you. Do you regard soaking as the better method for disassembly in general?

As regards Hoover's reblackening mixture, let's wait and see what the consequences of using it are a while down the road. I never reblacken but that's a different issue for another day.

[penwash]

That's an explanation for one pen. Obviously, I can't argue with your experience in that case. I have no doubt it was the right thing to do when heat had failed to do the job for you. Do you regard soaking as the better method for disassembly in general?



All I can say is that soaking fits my workflow. It does a lot more good than harm (in my experience), and since I work in phases (work on several pens at a time), it doesn't really slow me down at all.

But you've given me some food for thought on the effectiveness of heating. So now I have two approaches that I can consider.

So thank you again for a thread that generates useful discussions. :)

[Deb]

My pleasure. I like to hear everyone's opinions.

[AzJon]

I have one of Hoover's restored woodgrain pens. I think his pens are very nicely restored and he has spent a long time developing the deoxidzer (not strictly for black rubber). Vulcanized rubber is pretty hardy stuff overall, but I can understand the apprehension.

I will also concede that my repairs aren't being done on shining examples of a pen. Usually just saving an unloved, but otherwise excellent, pen. The pens I fix I usually end up using myself or maybe reselling for a bit more than I acquired them. Perhaps I would think twice before soaking a pristine radite! Water works well for me and I've not seen any particularly convincing reason not to use it if used in a, as Penwash put it, calculated risk kind of way.

[Deb]

I'll discuss Hoover another time. One subject is enough per thread.

If what you're doing works for you, that's fine.

[kirchh]

I use selective soaking when appropriate; it takes almost no time at all to get the front end of a pen soaking. A few seconds, perhaps, if you work on pens with some frequency, and while it's soaking, I can work on other pens, of course, so it's hardly "willfully inefficient." As noted, it's inaccurate that all materials used to make pens will be damaged if in contact with water-based liquids, or that they were not intended to be in prolonged contact with such liquids. Immersing an entire vintage hard rubber pen is generally a bad idea, and unnecessary, due to latent surface damage, but an experienced repairperson can determine whether soaking the forward portion is safe. As for "Radite, so far as I remember, is a form of pyroxylin. I wouldn't immerse that in water. No telling what the long term effects might be," as someone else observed, some celluloid pens hold ink directly in the barrel, and immersion in plain water for a few hours has no long-term effects on celluloid.

As for, "I see no 'absolutism' in what I'm saying." Well: "Soaking hard rubber components is absolutely the wrong thing to do. Always;" "Water just isn't very good for... celluloid;" "there was no need to put water there in the first place."

--Daniel

I'll give you some of that, for the sake of avoiding the dread accusation of absolutism :-) However, what is the situation in which you would dangle the front end of a pen in water rather than using the methods I have described?

The less force applied to a pen, the safer the repair process is. Loosening material that is contributing to a section's stubbornness can reduce the force needed to extract it.

--Daniel

[kirchh]

I use selective soaking when appropriate; it takes almost no time at all to get the front end of a pen soaking. A few seconds, perhaps, if you work on pens with some frequency, and while it's soaking, I can work on other pens, of course, so it's hardly "willfully inefficient." As noted, it's inaccurate that all materials used to make pens will be damaged if in contact with water-based liquids, or that they were not intended to be in prolonged contact with such liquids. Immersing an entire vintage hard rubber pen is generally a bad idea, and unnecessary, due to latent surface damage, but an experienced repairperson can determine whether soaking the forward portion is safe. As for "Radite, so far as I remember, is a form of pyroxylin. I wouldn't immerse that in water. No telling what the long term effects might be," as someone else observed, some celluloid pens hold ink directly in the barrel, and immersion in plain water for a few hours has no long-term effects on celluloid.

As for, "I see no 'absolutism' in what I'm saying." Well: "Soaking hard rubber components is absolutely the wrong thing to do. Always;" "Water just isn't very good for... celluloid;" "there was no need to put water there in the first place."

--Daniel

I'll give you some of that, for the sake of avoiding the dread accusation of absolutism :-) However, what is the situation in which you would dangle the front end of a pen in water rather than using the methods I have described?

Replying to myself here: On second thoughts, I won't give you any of that, Daniel. Dunking hard rubber parts or pens in water just isn't clever and there's no need to do it. As regards vintage plastics, I've come across several reports of them becoming clouded from immersion. I have no experience of it myself, not being in the habit of soaking pens but it's out there. As regards the accusation of absolutism, I laugh at it. It's a diversion made by people with no better way to press their argument.

"As regards the accusation of absolutism, I laugh at it."

"Dunking hard rubber parts or pens in water just isn't clever and there's no need to do it."

So much for the claims of open-mindedness expressed earlier.

I don't use the described technique to be "clever;"' that's an odd standard. I use it to effectively and safely perform a repair. Obviously, our experience differs; I have had success with my approach, so I continue to employ it. It's curious that you're attempting to tell me that my experience doesn't exist or has no value.


"As regards vintage plastics, I've come across several reports of them becoming clouded from immersion. I have no experience of it myself."

I've come across reports of all sorts of things, many of them wrong. I appreciate your statement that you have no experience of your own with this specific topic; I do, and I rely on that experience.

"As regards the accusation of absolutism, I laugh at it. It's a diversion made by people with no better way to press their argument."

Previously, you'd said you hadn't made absolutist statements. When that's proven to be false, you say it doesn't matter. That's not a particularly sincere approach to discussion.

--Daniel

[Deb]

My goodness, Daniel, when you get stroppy you begin to sound like Isaacson, and that really creeps me out.

[kirchh]

My goodness, Daniel, when you get stroppy you begin to sound like Isaacson, and that really creeps me out.

An ad hominem argument doesn't further the discussion.

--Daniel

[Deb]

My goodness, Daniel, when you get stroppy you begin to sound like Isaacson, and that really creeps me out.

An ad hominem argument doesn't further the discussion.

--Daniel

Probably not, but nor does that repetitive, nitpicky nonsense you set out above. I've no time for that kind of thing.

[kirchh]

My goodness, Daniel, when you get stroppy you begin to sound like Isaacson, and that really creeps me out.

An ad hominem argument doesn't further the discussion.

--Daniel

Probably not, but nor does that repetitive, nitpicky nonsense you set out above. I've no time for that kind of thing.

Disparagement of factual accuracy is distinctly unproductive, though I appreciate the admission that you're dropping the pretense of having a sincere discussion about the topic you raised.

--Daniel

[Deb]

In this thread, as in other recent posts, my aim has been to raise the signal over the nolise on this board. Discussion with everyone else in this thread went fine but you, with your usual trollishness are just here for a fight. I won't waste my time or energy on you.

[Farmboy]

In this thread, as in other recent posts, my aim has been to raise the signal over the nolise on this board. Discussion with everyone else in this thread went fine but you, with your usual trollishness are just here for a fight. I won't waste my time or energy on you.
I disagree.

I also have gotten the front end of a pen wet. Sometimes it takes heat AND a soak.

[Deb]

Not for me. However, if that's what works for you, that's fine.

[Seattleite]

In my original post I asked to be convinced that there was some merit in soaking pens. Nothing has been said that sounds convincing to me. Now I'm being told by penwash he only soaks up to the section. I don't see any problem with that - he's only soaking the nib and the feed. Mind you, by time he has set up an arrangement to precisely dangle a pen in water, I'd have restored a few using heat. By time his jig has wicked old ink out of a section and feed I would have moved on to the following week or maybe fortnight. That just seems wilfully inefficient to me.

Seattleite tells me that a little easily removed discoloration of hard rubber isn't a problem. Agreed. You can abrade it off, paint it or apply some gunk that may have unfortunate effects some way down the line. And, in the meantime, I'm working on another pen or two. With heat.

How about if you take some of that time you waste and learn to use heat properly on scrap parts? It might take half a day at the most. And I see no "absolutism" in what I'm saying. It's just what I've learned from years of restoring pens.



I felt that challenging some of your erroneous statements was the right thing to do. How you have chosen to respond is.... interesting.

Bob

[kirchh]

In this thread, as in other recent posts, my aim has been to raise the signal over the nolise on this board. Discussion with everyone else in this thread went fine but you, with your usual trollishness are just here for a fight. I won't waste my time or energy on you.

At least you've admitted to the disingenuousness of your earlier declarations, such as "I like to hear everyone's opinions."

--Daniel

[Deb]

In my original post I asked to be convinced that there was some merit in soaking pens. Nothing has been said that sounds convincing to me. Now I'm being told by penwash he only soaks up to the section. I don't see any problem with that - he's only soaking the nib and the feed. Mind you, by time he has set up an arrangement to precisely dangle a pen in water, I'd have restored a few using heat. By time his jig has wicked old ink out of a section and feed I would have moved on to the following week or maybe fortnight. That just seems wilfully inefficient to me.

Seattleite tells me that a little easily removed discoloration of hard rubber isn't a problem. Agreed. You can abrade it off, paint it or apply some gunk that may have unfortunate effects some way down the line. And, in the meantime, I'm working on another pen or two. With heat.

How about if you take some of that time you waste and learn to use heat properly on scrap parts? It might take half a day at the most. And I see no "absolutism" in what I'm saying. It's just what I've learned from years of restoring pens.



I felt that challenging some of your erroneous statements was the right thing to do. How you have chosen to respond is.... interesting.

Bob

Why? What's your problem?

[Scooby921]

Hi Scooby921,

What's this "professional" shenanigans? I don't have a degree in pen repair. I didn't take any classes. So far as I'm aware it's well short of being a profession. I decided to try to repair a pen one day. It worked. So I did another and another and the years went by. I made mistakes along the way so now I offer what I've learned so that others don't need to make the same mistakes.
You buy pens, repair them, and sell them. That sounds like a business to me. Thus pen repair is a profession for you. Perhaps not your primary source of income, but more a profession for you than for someone like me who has only attempted to restore a single pen. Having a wealth more experience, a collection of tools and materials from years of repair work, and your own "lessons learned" knowledge base of what to do and not do does make you a professional, whether you want to be one or not :).


Most people have hair dryers. I used one for quite a while, and not for drying my hair. They are perfectly adequate for many of the pen repair tasks. Warm water is an extremely inefficient way of loosening shellac and most glues. Why do that, when most people have a good heat source at hand?
I heated a pot of water to 2°C warmer than the melting point of shellac. I stuck the nib, feed, section, and first 1/2" of the barrel into the water for 1 minute. It came apart easily and there were no worries about too much localized heat. Once apart I dropped the nib, feed, and section assembly into a small glass of water and let it sit there for an hour to reconstitute the ink that had been dried up in the feed for a decade. I obviously wasn't clear about sticking pens in water and meaning only certain parts of it. I guess I was relying on people having some common sense when it comes to these things. I can't imagine anyone dropping an entire pen into a cup or pot of water and leaving it there.


I've seen the consequences of soaking pens. Fixed clips, pressure bars, circlips, all manner of metal parts rusted unnecessarily through bad practice. Water is very good at lying in concealed places so you think you've got it all out, but you haven't. And there was no need to put it there in the first place.

"Yes water will lead to corrosion, but the rate at which it happens is slow, and even slower while things remain submerged"

I'm not sure what you're trying to say there. I agree that corrosion is slow but I'm suggesting using methods that will prevent it from starting.
The time necessary to soak anything and clean it is far shorter than the time required for oxidization to begin. If you properly clean and dry the parts there is no water remaining. This is why I mentioned cans of compressed air. They do a great job of getting water out of places it shouldn't be. I also mentioned rust preventative cleaners and coatings. Take the spring bar out of a water bath, blow it dry with compressed air, and dress it with some variety of rust preventative. Gun cleaning solution works well on steel parts. Again with common sense, don't just dunk it and leave it.





It won't seem so convenient when you ruin a good pen.


Also, water and rubber are fine.

Not vintage HR pens. When people bandy about info like the above, there is ample opportunity for someone new to the hobby to see it and assume they can just plunk that sucker in some water for a good soak. See Point #1.
See comments above. I was assuming we were dealing with some amount of common sense and not just dropping an entire pen into a water bath to see what happens.







Also, unexposed to prolonged UV hard rubber is fine in water,

I already covered that point, further up the thread. Now, how do you tell which hard rubber hasn't had prolonged exposure to UV over the last 90 years. Because that's a really clever trick.

I don't know :)

But I am betting on the high possibility that sections and feeds on pens that looks like it's worth restoring, haven't been exposed to much UV. So far I haven't lost that bet yet.

Having said that, I've seen a few olive-colored sections before I even soak it.

I think you might lose a few of those bets. Shiny black one minute, greeny-grey the next.
What have people tried in regards to restoring color? Plenty of automotive products out there for restoring the dark black color to plastic and rubber trim. Wipe it on, let it bond with the material, wipe off the excess. Not perfect, but it tends to add a protective layer to the material as well. Finished product / surface is dry to the touch, so it wouldn't be oily when you pick up the pen to write with it.

[Deb]

"Profession: a paid occupation, especially one that involves prolonged training and a formal qualification." It's just a job, nothing so glorified as a profession.

As regards soaking, I stated my case on the basis of my experience in the first post. I haven't seen anything that suggests I was wrong so I haven't changed my position. I don't have anything more to say about it.

Many of those automotive products may contain chemicals that will be harmful to materials they were never intended for. "Do no harm" is all the law.

[KrazyIvan]

When I started in this hobby some 10 years ago, the first thing I learned was not to soak pens. Later I learned not to soak vintage pens. Modern pens, as long as they were not ebonite, celluloid or casein, are okay. Then through I experience I learned that was not true. I've soaked modern acrylic pens with plastic feeds and have had sections seperate from the internal tubes. (2 of them now). They were easily fixed with a few drops of shellac but I dont soak anymore. Flushing with a bulb syringe and an untrasonic clean of the nib unit only, and in the most extreme cases, is all I do now.

[Deb]

When I started in this hobby some 10 years ago, the first thing I learned was not to soak pens. Later I learned not to soak vintage pens. Modern pens, as long as they were not ebonite, celluloid or casein, are okay. Then through I experience I learned that was not true. I've soaked modern acrylic pens with plastic feeds and have had sections seperate from the internal tubes. (2 of them now). They were easily fixed with a few drops of shellac but I dont soak anymore. Flushing with a bulb syringe and an untrasonic clean of the nib unit only, and in the most extreme cases, is all I do now.

Yes. The bulb is a very handy tool. I have an ultrasonic cleaner but I don't use it much. It's good for the nib units from Osmiroids, Esterbrooks and some German school pens. I have one or two modern pens but I haven't had to repair any.

[kirchh]

As regards soaking, I stated my case on the basis of my experience in the first post. I haven't seen anything that suggests I was wrong so I haven't changed my position.

Multiple experienced repairpersons reported the value of certain soaking operations and provided information and experiential data that you did not have (e.g. effects of water on celluloid). You rejected all that information, which calls into question your previous claims of open-mindedness.

--Daniel

[Scooby921]

Many of those automotive products may contain chemicals that will be harmful to materials they were never intended for. "Do no harm" is all the law.
Are we agreeing or disagreeing that a product designed for rubber and plastics might work on rubber?

[Deb]

Many of those automotive products may contain chemicals that will be harmful to materials they were never intended for. "Do no harm" is all the law.
Are we agreeing or disagreeing that a product designed for rubber and plastics might work on rubber?

If you're actually asking for advice, I might deal with this but if you're just looking to extend a very tired argument, I would suggest you look into it yourself.

[Jon Szanto]

Many of those automotive products may contain chemicals that will be harmful to materials they were never intended for. "Do no harm" is all the law.
Are we agreeing or disagreeing that a product designed for rubber and plastics might work on rubber?

One might start with the question "Are all rubber and plastics the same?" Additionally, what is the underlying purpose of the product? Is a rubber treatment meant for autiomobile tires, which have a limited and non-visual-centric lifespan and would be treated when in new condition, appropriate for an old rubber object? Nothing is clear cut.

[Deb]

Quite so, Jon. Indeed, the "rubber" used in car tyres and hoses is a very different product from the material made for pens, long ago or now. Likewise, there are a host of different materials called plastics, all with different properties. Then there are "automotive products"; even if we stick with the abrasives and polishes for plastics, there are a great many of them all with different constituent ingredients. Some list the plastics they can be used on, others don't.

If we're in the business of restoring pens rather than shortening the time they'll be around, most automotive products are best used on automobiles.

[KrazyIvan]

I'm going to have to investigate how 303 UV Protectant works on ebonite pen barrels. It's a very good protectant that keeps rubber and plastics from being damaged by UV rays.

[TSherbs]

You can water soak any part of a pen that is normally in contact with ink (which is nearly entirely water). But soak judiciously. I never "soak" for longer than an hour or so at a time. As with any cleaning process with anything, be observant and adjust to the results. All methods have their pros and cons.

[Chrissy]

You can water soak any part of a pen that is normally in contact with ink (which is nearly entirely water). But soak judiciously. I never "soak" for longer than an hour or so at a time. As with any cleaning process with anything, be observant and adjust to the results. All methods have their pros and cons.
This is what I tend to do. I would never soak a whole pen in water or in my USC, but I like to water soak just the end of the sections in water or in pen flush for a short period of time.

I have a hair dryer and I bought myself a heat gun, but I'm inexperienced with dismantling pens, so I find I'm very scared when I'm using heat near to pens. I've restored several Esterbrooks and a couple of Parker 51's using heat, but if I can get away with propping a section up in my USC I tend to try that first. In order to not expose the pen parts to the liquid in the USC for a long period of time, I run it empty until the liquid has warmed up before giving a section a couple of minutes in there. I find it less scary than the direct heat of my heat gun that's for sure. However, I don't think I have any pen sections made from material that shouldn't get wet for a short time, so I feel safe when using my USC.

I recently found I had a slight problem with an Omas where the nib and feed weren't in what I would call "correct alignment" with the feeder case slots, and when I flushed water through it, the water came out at a right angle. I knew I had to do something with it, and soaking the end of the grip section enabled me to unscrew it from the barrel. From there it was simple enough to knock out the nib and feed. Even so, I found the procedure stressful. It got much worse when I needed to put the nib and feed back into the section. They just would not go in. Even with the section warmed in the USC, they still wouldn't go in.

I had to use my heat gun, and found that the only way I trusted it was to put part of my finger between the section and the heat. I did eventually get that nib and feed in using dry heat from the heat gun, but it was a nervous time and I had to keep tapping the other end of the section while trying to push the nib and feed in. I fixed the problem, but advocate that it is right to not remove a nib and feed from any pen unless it is essential. I think in my case it was essential.

[gbryal]

Besides the reasons mentioned, if you soak a whole vintage pen you found in the basement or on ebay, the ink that comes out may well stain the barrel.

If you are slow like me, it can even happen twice.

[Deb]

You can water soak any part of a pen that is normally in contact with ink (which is nearly entirely water). But soak judiciously. I never "soak" for longer than an hour or so at a time. As with any cleaning process with anything, be observant and adjust to the results. All methods have their pros and cons.
This is what I tend to do. I would never soak a whole pen in water or in my USC, but I like to water soak just the end of the sections in water or in pen flush for a short period of time.

I have a hair dryer and I bought myself a heat gun, but I'm inexperienced with dismantling pens, so I find I'm very scared when I'm using heat near to pens. I've restored several Esterbrooks and a couple of Parker 51's using heat, but if I can get away with propping a section up in my USC I tend to try that first. In order to not expose the pen parts to the liquid in the USC for a long period of time, I run it empty until the liquid has warmed up before giving a section a couple of minutes in there. I find it less scary than the direct heat of my heat gun that's for sure. However, I don't think I have any pen sections made from material that shouldn't get wet for a short time, so I feel safe when using my USC.

I recently found I had a slight problem with an Omas where the nib and feed weren't in what I would call "correct alignment" with the feeder case slots, and when I flushed water through it, the water came out at a right angle. I knew I had to do something with it, and soaking the end of the grip section enabled me to unscrew it from the barrel. From there it was simple enough to knock out the nib and feed. Even so, I found the procedure stressful. It got much worse when I needed to put the nib and feed back into the section. They just would not go in. Even with the section warmed in the USC, they still wouldn't go in.

I had to use my heat gun, and found that the only way I trusted it was to put part of my finger between the section and the heat. I did eventually get that nib and feed in using dry heat from the heat gun, but it was a nervous time and I had to keep tapping the other end of the section while trying to push the nib and feed in. I fixed the problem, but advocate that it is right to not remove a nib and feed from any pen unless it is essential. I think in my case it was essential.

As I think you have discovered, the heat generated by the USC isn't enough to be useful. The USC may remove crusted old ink but that's about the limit of its usefulness. For opening up sections or melting glue, dry heat is the way to go. I understand and appreciate your nervousness in applying dry heat, especially from a heat gun which can run at a higher temperature. Your technique of using your finger to assess heat is a good one. I think being apprehensive about using powerful methods - like heat - is wisdom. It's the person full of inappropriate confidence who gets to see how fast a celluloid pen can burn.