What Would You Do?

[Susan3141]

So, I've had a really bad experience with a seller who sells pens on FPN, on FPG, and presumably elsewhere. I'll describe the experience below, but I won't identify him. My question is, should I identify him so other buyers can beware? Or is that mean-spirited?

Here's what happened:

I bought a $375 MB 234 1/2 from a seller on FPN (he sells pens here, too). Before I bought the pen I asked him if the cork had been recently replaced and wanted to make sure the pen was in good working condition. He told me that it was all in working order.

When I received the pen, it wrote horribly. It gushed ink, and even though it was an IB, I didn't think it should produce that much flow. I tried different inks and papers. I gave the pen a thorough try. But it was awful.

I emailed the seller and told him something was wrong with the pen. I asked him what my options were--could I return it to him or would he pay for repairs if I had a restorer here in the states look at it? His response was rude and unhelpful. He said that I had the pen for 10 days and I should've contacted him immediately. He also said that IB nibs have a heavy flow. The pen was perfectly fine when he sent it (he claimed), and since I had the pen for 10 days he had no responsibility at all (also implying that I must've done something to damage the pen). I don't think 10 days is too long to try a pen (I was criticized by another seller when I contacted her after only one day of using a pen and she said I hadn't given it a good try!)

I have since sent the pen to Gary Lehrer who emailed me yesterday and told me that not only was the nib misaligned, but the cork was not creating a proper vacuum and seal, thus producing the gushing flow. In other words, the seller sold me a pen that was not in working condition. I think $375 is a high price to pay for a pen that won't write. I've emailed the seller what Gary told me, but he has not responded, and I doubt he will. I think he ought to pay for my repair costs, at the least. But, of course, there is no arbitrator for such disputes, is there?

I've already decided I'm done buying pens from anyone except reputable dealers, even if I have to pay a higher price.

What would you do? Would you expose him? Would you leave it be?

Susan

[tandaina]

I would expect a partial refund for the cost of the cork repair. But that doesn't mean it'll happen.

Those are pens I buy, and that is a premium price in my experience. For that price I'd expect a PERFECT pen.

I bought a pen from a FPN fellow recently (144 50s model) that not only had a steel nib instead of gold, was seriously misaligned and the feed improperly set. I just had Joel fix it, didn't follow up as it didn't seem worth it, but I did NOT pay such a high price...

Sorry it was such a pain, hope you adore the pen when you get it back though!

[matveik]

It's an unpleasant business, but I'm of the view that publicly naming the seller is something of a public service. Be and honest and fair in the process. Whether it helps you is hard to say. However, it may change their approach going forward and it may dissuade those from making expensive purchases. I think it helps the community in the long run.

I think I'm in the minority on this though.

[Laura N]

I know your seller, I think. I bought a much cheaper pen that arrived working, but not as perfectly as he had stated. Since the final tweaks are easy, I'm going to do them myself. I filed it under lessons learned. Also, my pen was sold at a very low price, so I think there's room in the price for a repair even if I have to pay for it. Sadly, sometimes when you pay a premium price you get what you pay for, and sometimes when you buy a bargain, you do as well.

Generally, over many transactions, my experience has been that just because a seller sells on a board classifieds, or posts on a board, or has a good reputation on these boards, doesn't mean that he or she will turn out to be any more honest or straight-dealing than the random seller on eBay. I'm sorry to say I learned that the hard way.

I wouldn't name him publicly, and I might even take out the identifying information you've already included. The mix-up in country is easy to do on FPN classifieds; I've seen it before, so I wouldn't assume it was on purpose. There is no excuse for treating you badly when you raised the pen's issues. Sadly I've seen that before, too, with other sellers. I'm sorry for the bad transaction.

[ethernautrix]

I think the seller should pay the cost of the repair. I don't know how you would compel him to, however.

Sorry to hear about this problem, Suzy.

[Susan3141]

I know your seller, I think. I bought a much cheaper pen that arrived working, but not as perfectly as he had stated. Since the final tweaks are easy, I'm going to do them myself. I filed it under lessons learned. Also, my pen was sold at a very low price, so I think there's room in the price for a repair even if I have to pay for it. Sadly, sometimes when you pay a premium price you get what you pay for, and sometimes when you buy a bargain, you do as well.

Generally, over many transactions, my experience has been that just because a seller sells on a board classifieds, or posts on a board, or has a good reputation on these boards, doesn't mean that he or she will turn out to be any more honest or straight-dealing than the random seller on eBay. I'm sorry to say I learned that the hard way.

I wouldn't name him publicly, and I might even take out the identifying information you've already included. The mix-up in country is easy to do on FPN classifieds; I've seen it before, so I wouldn't assume it was on purpose. There is no excuse for treating you badly when you raised the pen's issues. Sadly I've seen that before, too, with other sellers. I'm sorry for the bad transaction.

Thanks. I took out the location info.

[Susan3141]

I think the seller should pay the cost of the repair. I don't know how you would compel him to, however.

Sorry to hear about this problem, Suzy.

Thanks. That's the thing. I don't have any leverage, except maybe identifying him. I may see if I can use my Visa's buyer protection, but this issue is so convoluted I'm not sure they would understand. "You paid WHAT for a fountain pen? People use those still? Well, you're an idiot!"

[dannzeman]

Susan, or the rules of The Market Feedback forum you are required to name the other party which allows us to contact them and give them a chance to respond.

I'm sorry to hear about your experience but your story does little to protect anyone else if we don't know who not to buy from or what the other side of the story is.

[Susan3141]

Susan, or the rules of The Market Feedback forum you are required to name the other party which allows us to contact them and give them a chance to respond.

I'm sorry to hear about your experience but your story does little to protect anyone else if we don't know who not to buy from or what the other side of the story is.

All right, then. The seller is David1600.

Susan

[mhguda]

I think Dan's point is valid, and if you name the seller to him so he can take action in order to protect possible future buyers, without at this point publicly naming him/her, you might reach some sort of solution. I think I know who you mean (from information that you posted earlier, on FPN!) and I made a note of the name of the person, with a note to self: to beware of this seller... especially since all the pens I've bought in the last year or so that weren't from professional shops on the net were from the FPN classifieds - I felt I could take the risk... so your ordeal has really been very educational for me. So far I've been lucky (I've also set myself a relatively low maximum for pen buys over the net, reserving those to buy locally) - your story brought home to me How lucky!
So, thanks for sharing, and I hope Dan's proposal is a way forward that would help others as well. And maybe you can still get some kind of satisfaction.

[fountainpenkid]

I thought so. I bought 2 vintage 88s from him, very low price, and yes, the piston seals weren't perfect, but I put up with it because it was good deal. I am sorry to hear your experience with him. I think he just needs to get his restoration process down better...but maybe there's more to that. Maybe he's not replacing the seals but just greasing them...

[maiboo]

Maybe he needs to learn to be more honest about his description. If too many people "put up with it", he's going to keep doing this.

[fountainpenkid]

To his defense, english isn't his first language, so maybe he doesn't totally understand what he's saying?

[maiboo]

Ahh that might explain it. English is my second language too and I still have problems with tenses even after living here awhile.

[Susan3141]

Although there might be an issue with language, I think you will see that David knew what I was communicating from our very first exchange. Here is a summary of the exchanges between us via email with the dates. As you will see, the day I actually received the pen was April 18. I contacted David on April 24, which is actually 7 days after receiving the pen.


Me: April 6: Is the cork seal new or is it the original (in other words, will I need to replace it soon?)

David: April 6: the cork seal was replaced few years ago, when I acquired pen. Since then I used the pen few times, so I believe the cork seal might work properly for another few years.


I picked up the pen from the Post Office on April 18.

I wrote David on April 24, which is actually only 7 days after receiving the pen.


Me: April 24: I bought a MB 234 1/2 from you and I've had it for about 1 and 1/2 weeks. Unfortunately, I think there is something wrong with the nib or the feed.

When I first inked it, I noticed that it is a "gusher," meaning that it dumps out a lot of ink. I thought that it was just because the pen had been dipped in ink and filled and that the flow would moderate after the extra ink worked itself out of the feed. But that has not happened. I've tried it with several different inks. Currently, I have Pousierre de Lune in it, which, in my other pens, seems to be a rather dry ink. But in the 234 it comes out so thick that I have to wait a long time for the ink to dry.

Looking at the underside of the nib, it looks to me like the feed is not correctly aligned with the nib, and I wonder if this is what is causing the problem.

I have used the pen gently. I have used it only at home to journal and write, though I brought it to work with me today. But it is always carefully handled. It has not been dropped. I have not meddled with the nib in any way.

What do I need to do and what are my options? I can send you photos of the feed and nib misalignment and the gushy writing, if you like.

Since the pen is not working correctly, do I return it to you? Or, if I send it to someone here in the states, would you pay for any repair costs?

Since I paid $375 for the pen, I expected it to be in perfect working order, but that does not seem to be the case.

David: April 24: Please let me know what you would like me to do.
The pen which you have bought is Montblanc with a flexy nib, most of the pens with flexible nibs are quite wet writers, for example - Watermans 52 no, so it doesn't matter which ink you use pen will draw rather wet and thick line, but from what I know it flexibillity of the pen was mentioned in description. Most vintage Montblanc pens which I have are truly wet writters and this is normal, I don't know nothing about the bad aligned, since I have cleaned and checked the the pen before shipment and everything was correct. The other thing is that you need to know, vintage feed usually have great ink flow, like X-mas feed Parker Duofold, where much ink flow and gusher were normal, this wasn't happening in next Parker construction, which hold the ink more securely and have better construction, but poorer ink flow. What bothers me is why you haven't informed me, if you thought about this as a problem in first few days the pen arrived to you?

I don't want to insult you, but since you have used the pen almost 10 days and everything was correct and now you're writting that's sth bad happened with pen and you say it's might be my fault, it look at least odd.

Truth to say I have no idea what to do. If you would written to me earlier there would be no problem and I would accept the return, but now? Don't think so that someone one forum would accept the return after so long time, I have seen 3-4 days return time bit not the 10 days.

Me. April 24: The reason I waited is because I wanted to make certain I gave the pen a good try before writing to ask about the problems. I noticed the flow problem on day one. But I thought maybe it was the ink. The next time I had a chance, I changed out the ink and noticed the flow problem. I tried another ink, still the same. It's not true that I didn't notice a problem until day 10. But I didn't realize I should email you immediately if I thought there was a problem, because I wasn't sure if there was one. The way a pen writes cannot be determined until one uses it with different inks and papers.

On one occasion, I wrote to a seller with concerns a day or two after receiving a pen and they accused me of not giving the pen a decent try. That's another reason why I decided to give the pen some time before writing to you. You can believe me or not. But I do resent the implication in your email that I am not telling the truth and that it is "odd" to wait this long.

I don't feel like 10 days is that long of a time to work with a pen and to try it with different inks to see if there is a problem. If you have a limit, perhaps that should be included in your listings. I work full time, so, no I am not able to give a pen a good, thorough writing check in just a few days. You said that I am saying this is your fault. But, I suspect you think that I've done something to the pen and I'm trying to return it because I screwed it up. That is not the case, but you can draw your own conclusions as you seem to have done.

David. April 24. I understand that you feel angry, but please tell me what you demand from me? I wrote to you is that you should only inform me that you feel, there's sth wrong with the pen, when you received it, that's all, you could have asked me if you had any doubts about ink flow. It would look different than message from you, which I received today demanding either return, either paying me for repair. You didn't asked me about writting samples or ink flow, which is quite rich when you combine flexible broad nib and sky slope feed. As I said earlier possibly only kind of repair which may change sth would be nib exchange for different one. Due to nib aligned, you are saying about sending me assesment for repair after using the pen for some time ?

After this I realized he had no intention of doing anything about the issue and I sent the pen to Gary.

[Laura N]

Suzy, thanks for posting the email exchange so everyone could see it. I'm sorry you had this experience. I agree with what you said in your first post about only buying from reputable vendors, even though it costs more. I do that with expensive pens, too. And buying internationally always creates the wrinkle that returns or exchanges would be more expensive and take longer, just because of shipping. I think a lot of us have had the same hard lessons.

I hope when the pen is fixed it will be everything you hoped.

[fountainpenkid]

Ugh...I'm so sorry. I'm now wondering if I should still buy that 88 he listed...

[tandaina]

Yeah my 144 was from David1600 as well. In my case I just chalked it up to old pen and the cost was reasonable (fr repair) and I just sent it for fixing up. But sounds like a pattern of many of us doing that...

[Inginkpen]

Susan, I appreciate you taking the time and sharing your experience. I believe that David1600 could have done more to satisfy you because of the cost of the pen and assuring you it was in working order. It does make me want to think twice about buying vintage pens. FPN doesn't have a seller rating system, not that I think a rating system is a cure all. I've been really happy with all of my purchases on FPN network. I've been lucky.

[orfew]

I too have been lucky buying pens on FPN. I have had 1-2 unpleasant experiences but they were relatively minor. I appreciate the OPs willingness to post the name of the seller. Since I buy quite a few MBs and he sells quite a few you have just helped me avoid possible problems in the future.

[hari317]

Ok, I had one failed transaction with the seller mentioned here. I wanted to purchase some Senator presidents with gold nibs that he had listed at a good price. I paid and he postponed the shipping and then one fine day I got a full refund, when asked he said that someone looted his car and took away things that included the bag in which my packed parcel was kept to be posted.

[david1600]

Hello,

I don't know how to start, since the verdict is already given and I am guilty. I have received the info from Suzy,but as I wrote in correspondention with her, all I asked was the question why if sth was wrong she didn't contact me since the nib or the cork seal aren't things which will work out in some time, also you can see it and I wouldn't critize anybody especially if she would do it immediatelly after receiving pen, since I buy pens as well and I want it working if stated so also. I don't want to be rude, but since she didn't wrote nothing in first few days and then point the problem with nib, I can say as well that pen was in good condition, the nib was straight and she broke it, since I haven't received any proof, that this state was just out of the box. I have this policy since once I had received the pen back which was totally broken ( one wing of the nib broken and the piston knob broken from mechanism), after I agreed for return after few days usage.

Others didn't wrote anything that there's sth wrong with their fountain pens, except Taidaina which wrote that the nib was a bit misangled and she will send it for a repair, but she's happy and she didn't heard about this model of MB pen with steel nib, the pen she aquired was tested with magnet since I haven't heard about MB 144 with steel nib also and was unsure was the plating lost or the nib was steel and I think it was stated in description, also I have sent her exact photos of the pen with writting samples and more photos of the nib, I am still learning about fountain pens so I might not no everything. Unfortunately the original listing was on FPN and is probably expired.

Due to the Senator pen which Hari wrote about I have received payment, prepared the pen for shipping, take it to car which unfortunately was broken in and I lost not only pen but my stuff as well, I have infromed Hari about it and said I am sorry and wrote that I will send him refund which I did immediatelly, I don't have pen factory so I did only thing I could.

I don't know it's all but I have tried to reply to everything.

Regards,

david1600

[Susan3141]

Hello,

I don't know how to start, since the verdict is already given and I am guilty. I have received the info from Suzy,but as I wrote in correspondention with her, all I asked was the question why if sth was wrong she didn't contact me since the nib or the cork seal aren't things which will work out in some time, also you can see it and I wouldn't critize anybody especially if she would do it immediatelly after receiving pen, since I buy pens as well and I want it working if stated so also. I don't want to be rude, but since she didn't wrote nothing in first few days and then point the problem with nib, I can say as well that pen was in good condition, the nib was straight and she broke it, since I haven't received any proof, that this state was just out of the box. I have this policy since once I had received the pen back which was totally broken ( one wing of the nib broken and the piston knob broken from mechanism), after I agreed for return after few days usage.

Others didn't wrote anything that there's sth wrong with their fountain pens, except Taidaina which wrote that the nib was a bit misangled and she will send it for a repair, but she's happy and she didn't heard about this model of MB pen with steel nib, the pen she aquired was tested with magnet since I haven't heard about MB 144 with steel nib also and was unsure was the plating lost or the nib was steel and I think it was stated in description, also I have sent her exact photos of the pen with writting samples and more photos of the nib, I am still learning about fountain pens so I might not no everything. Unfortunately the original listing was on FPN and is probably expired.

Due to the Senator pen which Hari wrote about I have received payment, prepared the pen for shipping, take it to car which unfortunately was broken in and I lost not only pen but my stuff as well, I have infromed Hari about it and said I am sorry and wrote that I will send him refund which I did immediatelly, I don't have pen factory so I did only thing I could.

I don't know it's all but I have tried to reply to everything.

Regards,

david1600

In essence, what David is saying is (a) that I must have broken the nib because I didn't contact him immediately (which makes no sense) and (b) since I didn't contact him immediately he has no responsibility to pay for the costs of repairing the cork seal. That sounds to me like a man who will not stand behind what he sells.

Some clarification. The nib is not broken, it is misaligned. If that were the only problem, I wouldn't complain, because one can pretty easily push the feed back into the nib.

But since I asked specifically about the cork before buying the pen and that is what is wrong with the pen, I think David does have a responsibility to pay for the cost of the repair. This was a $375 pen. This was not a cheap pen where one could perhaps expect it to be less than perfect. I find absolutely no basis to David's argument that because I didn't contact him the day I received the pen that he has no responsibility. As I stated earlier. I had the pen a total of 7 days when I contacted him. That is not enough time for a good cork to go bad. And, despite what he says, I contacted him in a reasonable amount of time (how is 7 days not a reasonable amount of time?). There was nothing in his listing indicating that a buyer has to contact him immediately if they have problems.

I did not "break the nib" as he accuses and I did not cause the cork to go bad. He sold me a defective pen. Period. And his only recourse is to keep saying that I didn't contact him immediately, so that absolves him of any responsibility. That, I believe, is ridiculous.

I hope others learn from this experience. And I certainly wish David would, at the least, in order to salvage his reputation, offer to pay for the cork replacement.

Susan

[david1600]

Everybody is different, but if I buy sth which, is bad I inform asap about it.


(I was criticized by another seller when I contacted her after only one day of using a pen and she said I hadn't given it a good try!)

Do you inform about sth like this often? for me seems like a pattern.

[dannzeman]

I want to remind anyone commenting on this thread not to attack either party, but instead make suggestions that might help each come to an agreement.

This forum is a place for users to provide factual information about a transaction and allow the other party to respond, giving potential customers as much information as possible.

[Susan3141]

Everybody is different, but if I buy sth which, is bad I inform asap about it.


(I was criticized by another seller when I contacted her after only one day of using a pen and she said I hadn't given it a good try!)

Do you inform about sth like this often? for me seems like a pattern.

Are you serious? I mention one other situation, about which you know nothing, and you call it a "pattern"? Is that the best you can do?

Really, David, all I'm asking is for you to do the right thing, which is pay for the cost of the repair for the cork. I don't think that is outrageous or unreasonable. What I do think is outrageous and unreasonable, is your unwillingness to take responsibility for selling a defective pen.

Susan

[Flounder]

I've a suggestion for the seller. You can avoid suspicions about customer related damage with decent sale photographs. Certainly, a macro of the nib alignment and gap. Here's the new cork gaskets about to be fitted. Here's an example clip showing the seals are ink-tight. If you're selling expensive pens, it's worth taking the time and avoiding future unpleasantness & ambiguity.

[Nonsensical]

To be honest, I can't comment on the nib issue, but it sounds like there was an issue with the cork to begin with. I find it difficult to believe that a piston cork seal that was working perfectly would give way to problems within even a month, much less 7 or 10 days (unless BSB was somehow involved).

Usually if a cork seal needs to be replaced, it is because it no longer seals properly - which points to it being too old. Perhaps David thought it looked alright when he sent it out, but had not tried the pen extensively? Either way, it seems like the best solution here is to at least compromise and perhaps split the cost of the repair. It's difficult to say who is right or wrong, if indeed someone is even in the wrong. It could just be a number of other factors that we can't see or think of.

[mhguda]

I'm also seeing -still - a communication problem. I think David has trouble expressing his thoughts on possibilities, so that Suzy thinks he is accusing her of damaging the pen where he is - as yet - only suggesting the possibility, from his point of view. And this then set the tone for the subsequent communication between the two. It is often difficult for native speakers to see where a non-native speaker has problem expressing him/her self in another language. It is often not only the vocabulary that is deficient - or confused! - but also the grammar, the use of stock expressions, and such things. I say this because I can sense his frustration from some of the things he says in his posts. And I have some experience with situations where people are obliged to express themselves in a foreign language, sometimes in stressful situations, and it becomes difficult for them in ways the native speakers cannot even imagine.

I also think that there were two issues that Suzy brought up, the issue of the nib tines and the issue of the cork seal, and they are at least confused in David's mind as to which is more important. Here I think a solution may present itself, something that others have already suggested: since the nib was not really the big problem, it might be dropped from the discussion, and then the cork seal problem stands out, and there David has not really responded, and I think he should. I think Suzy's demand in that respect is very reasonable.

I hope this perspective helps.

[Manny]

What if there was a sort of "Angie's List" (http://angieslist.com) for fountain pen sellers (especially ebay ones), that buyers could refer to before a purchase?

[Annie]

What if there was a sort of "Angie's List" (http://angieslist.com) for fountain pen sellers (especially ebay ones), that buyers could refer to before a purchase?

What an excellent idea.

[JustinJ]

I am not judging David but there are more than a few users who have issues with him. This is a trend. If you consider that there are only a limited number of users here on FPG, then I would take this as a sign not to do business with David.

I am thankful that the original poster warned us.

[Susan3141]

I am not judging David but there are more than a few users who have issues with him. This is a trend. If you consider that there are only a limited number of users here on FPG, then I would take this as a sign not to do business with David.

I am thankful that the original poster warned us.

Unfortunately, he sells more pens on FPN than here, and as far as I know, there's no way to warn people there.

On the positive side, I got the MB 234 1/2 back from Gary Lehrer and it works perfectly. The cost of repair was $65. Seems like that wouldn't break David's considerable bank if he refunded me at least that much. But the likelihood of that is next to zero.

[fountainpenkid]

I would not say, "don't buy from him..ever." But I would say, buy carefully.

[Penne Stilografiche]

Interesting.

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/251093-ripped-off-by-fpn-seller-what-can-i-do/

[Laura N]

Interesting.

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/251093-ripped-off-by-fpn-seller-what-can-i-do/

Holy guacamole.

[ksh]

I am the person who purchased a Montblanc 146 for $462 from David1600 on FPN and started the post referenced above. He described the pen as "excellent." What happened to me is theft, nothing less. There are obvious bite marks, not described or in photos. When I raised this, he told me that the marks were not there before and I must have chomped on the pen myself. The cap of the pen is warped to one side. Again not mentioned or photographed. He has had no comment regarding this. The rings are a mess. Also not mentioned or depicted. After my post on FPN, which initially contained a link to his ad, including his pics which were on a 3rd party site, he went to the site and removed all of the pics. He sent me a pic, not included in the ad, that provides a clearer image of some of the problems with the rings and falsely claimed that this was in the original ad. I will try to attach 4 pics. The 2 with a wood background were used in his ad. The other 2, showing the rings, the warping, and some of the bite marks, are mine. His response has varied from evasion to outright lies. The worst buying experience of any kind in my life.

Keith

[Penne Stilografiche]

Interesting.

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/251093-ripped-off-by-fpn-seller-what-can-i-do/

Holy guacamole.

Holy guacamole indeed. It seems that this is not just a "communication problem" anymore. After that thread was posted, David1600 deceivingly removed the photos in his listing and replaced them with flowers, he also changed his price to "free". It is kind of scary to allow people like him to continue to sell pens on boards like the FPN and FPG, he continues to misrepresent the items he sells.

I have to thank the OP, if you did not raise concerns about this matter, I would have purchased the item in question on the FPN. I certainly would not want to deal with anyone who habitually deceives others to sell their products.

Best Regards,
Vincenzo

[Susan3141]

Did the post on FPN get deleted? I can't access it anymore.

[Penne Stilografiche]

Interesting.

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/251093-ripped-off-by-fpn-seller-what-can-i-do/

Shocker, the thread regarding David1600 ripping off another FPN member has disappeared.

[Flounder]

Was this the advert? I read both the post and the ad with photos. http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/classifieds/item/21018-montblanc-146-with-shipping/

edit - to clarify, before the post was made unavailable and the ad photos were changed.

[Flounder]

Yes, but without the thread, there's no link to the listing. I can't remember what listing it was, that's why I'm asking.

[Flounder]

Hmm. Disappointing way to behave. Certainly shits all over the country club, all chums together vibe.

[ksh]

The thread was removed. However, FPN admin has tried to help me by encouraging David1600 to refund the $. In the thread to my FPN post, I learned of this thread. If I had known of it, I would never have purchased a pen from him. My purpose in posting here is that maybe someone will read this and be spared the aggravation. I also hope that this guy will be barred from ever selling another pen here and at FPN.

[ksh]

Was this the advert? I read both the post and the ad with photos. http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/classifieds/item/21018-montblanc-146-with-shipping/

edit - to clarify, before the post was made unavailable and the ad photos were changed.

No, that's a different pen. Mine was listed as a 1950's:
http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/classifieds/item/21142-montblanc-146-1950s-with-shipping/
But this is after he removed all the pics.

[ksh]

Today I received David1600's response to FPN's effort to resolve this. He wrote: "The condition wasn't described as near mint or perfect but extra fine, which in my opinion was correct.".
Look at the pics of the pen. Should someone who thinks that it is proper to sell this as an extra fine item be permitted to sell anything?
I would like this post to be brought to the attention of the appropriate people who would have the authority to bar him from ever selling another pen. Can anyone tell me how to go about this?

[Laura N]

Today I received David1600's response to FPN's effort to resolve this. He wrote: "The condition wasn't described as near mint or perfect but extra fine, which in my opinion was correct.".
Look at the pics of the pen. Should someone who thinks that it is proper to sell this as an extra fine item be permitted to sell anything?
I would like this post to be brought to the attention of the appropriate people who would have the authority to bar him from ever selling another pen. Can anyone tell me how to go about this?

For this forum, maybe try the "Contact Us" link at the bottom of the page.

[WirsPlm]

Today I received David1600's response to FPN's effort to resolve this. He wrote: "The condition wasn't described as near mint or perfect but extra fine, which in my opinion was correct.".
Look at the pics of the pen. Should someone who thinks that it is proper to sell this as an extra fine item be permitted to sell anything?
I would like this post to be brought to the attention of the appropriate people who would have the authority to bar him from ever selling another pen. Can anyone tell me how to go about this?

Submit a dispute to PayPal. I haven't had to do that yet, so I can't help with the exact process. Best of luck with it!

This whole thing has kind of soured me on the thought of using the FPN classifieds. Basically, it seems like the mods aren't doing their jobs - so far the only action taken is to delete the thread, which is punishing the victim of a crime. It's not cool when victims of muggings get blamed (ex, You shouldn't have been on that street, what did you expect), and it's not cool when the victim of an online scammer gets hassled either. Plus, now I know there's no way to know if some seller on FPN is a scammer. We apparently can't warn other buyers if we get scammed, and the mods didn't seem to take this seriously, despite the guy being a repeat offender. I'd rather spend my money somewhere that takes it seriously.

[Flounder]

From the eye of Googlon, nothing can hide! (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:5DCuR2B7Ke0J:www.fountainpennetwork .com/forum/index.php/classifieds/item/21142-montblanc-146-1950s-with-shipping/+http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/classifieds/item/21142-montblanc-146-1950s-with-shipping/&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk)

Here's a PDF backup.4886

[Flounder]

Also, there seems to be a difference between the cached (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:5DCuR2B7Ke0J:www.fountainpennetwork .com/forum/index.php/classifieds/item/21142-montblanc-146-1950s-with-shipping/&client=firefox-a&hl=en&gl=uk&strip=1)and current "condition"

[ksh]

Flounder: Would you explain how you pulled up the page from Aug 7th? Free software?

[Flounder]

Nope, it's all google. Here's a backup of the advert as it is today, in case it is further changed.

4887

If you are in contact with the mods @ FPN about this, show them there is proof the advert has been altered. It wouldn't hurt to give paypal the links too.

[tandaina]

Got to love the long, long memory that is Google. That folks haven't realized everything they post online is there forever in cache I really don't get. Hope this gets resolved.

[ksh]

Flounder:
I don't mean to highjack my own subject matter, but how exactly did you do it? You didn't have the page saved in your own browser history, right? So you went to Google and did what? In my work, sometimes I'll want to find what someone posted on Facebook, but when I go to look for it, it's gone. Can you just pick a date a month or two ago and get what was there?

[Jon Szanto]

Facebook, by it's dynamic nature, is going to be a lot harder to pull out. But more standardized web pages do get cached. I'll be curious to see if Flounder has a way of resurrecting Facebook data, and how far back...

[tandaina]

Flounder:
I don't mean to highjack my own subject matter, but how exactly did you do it? You didn't have the page saved in your own browser history, right? So you went to Google and did what? In my work, sometimes I'll want to find what someone posted on Facebook, but when I go to look for it, it's gone. Can you just pick a date a month or two ago and get what was there?

When you do a Google search, there is usually a link to the cached item to the right of the search result. Sometimes takes some getting to, and mousing over, but basically Google and other engines keep cached versions of pages. Even a page that has vanished and is gone can be retrieved this way. Facebook is way trickier. But if it was shared PUBLICALLY on FB then again, Google may have indexed it and have a cache.

[Tony Rex]

http://web.archive.org/web/20130821233155/http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/classifieds/item/21018-montblanc-146-with-shipping/

[dr.grace]

The third-from-last picture does show a bit of damage to the cap rings. But it's a little hard to spot, and IMO the seller should have called attention to it.

[ksh]

That photo, particularly if you go to the 3rd party site and do a close up, provides a clue to the issue with the rings, but the actual problem is significantly worse than shown. I did not realize I could do a close-up. My fault. But the process of buying a pen should not be a game in which the seller tries to get away with hiding the condition, while revealing just enough to claim that the buyer had fair warning. Moreover, there was no mention or photo of obvious and deep bite marks. And no mention of warping. The pen was described in the ad as "Extra Fine." C'mon. With the help of FPN admin, I have reached a resolution, with a refund that should be sufficient to buy a replacement cap, assuming I can find one somewhere. I prefer this to having to pay to ship it to Europe with delivery confirmation, worrying about whether he claims that the item was damaged in transit, and waiting for Paypal. The purpose of my post was not to engender sympathy. It was to try to prevent someone else from going through the aggravation I have gone through, and which I would have avoided if I had read this thread prior to purchase.

[Flounder]

Flounder:
I don't mean to highjack my own subject matter, but how exactly did you do it? You didn't have the page saved in your own browser history, right? So you went to Google and did what? In my work, sometimes I'll want to find what someone posted on Facebook, but when I go to look for it, it's gone.


Here's all you do:
1. Copy and paste the advert URL from FPN to google's seach box.
2. Click the little downward arrow to the right of the search result. The word "Cached" appears. Click that to see the listing as google cached it on the 7th August.
3. Remember a time when trading was a fun way of learning about different pens in a safe and trustworthy environment, instead of a forensic ball ache.


Can you just pick a date a month or two ago and get what was there?
Nope. It is fortunate that the advert was up long enough for google to cache it before David1600 altered it. For any given archived page, the Internet Archive (http://archive.org/index.php) lets you choose snapshots from specific dates.

Don't know about Facebook, I've never needed to do that. For saving offline copies of web pages, I like to use a firefox addon called printpagestopdf.

[gentlyom]

I am very shocked to hear such things happened at FPG and FPN. I hope Paypal can help Susan and Keith.

In my opinion, buying from a reputable seller is the best bet although it does not guarantee everything will go right. However when buying a pen, we should keep in mind taking very close examination to the detail pictures as well as writing samples, and always ask for return/exchange policy.

[dannzeman]

I am the person who purchased a Montblanc 146 for $462 from David1600 on FPN and started the post referenced above. He described the pen as "excellent." What happened to me is theft, nothing less. There are obvious bite marks, not described or in photos. When I raised this, he told me that the marks were not there before and I must have chomped on the pen myself. The cap of the pen is warped to one side. Again not mentioned or photographed. He has had no comment regarding this. The rings are a mess. Also not mentioned or depicted. After my post on FPN, which initially contained a link to his ad, including his pics which were on a 3rd party site, he went to the site and removed all of the pics. He sent me a pic, not included in the ad, that provides a clearer image of some of the problems with the rings and falsely claimed that this was in the original ad. I will try to attach 4 pics. The 2 with a wood background were used in his ad. The other 2, showing the rings, the warping, and some of the bite marks, are mine. His response has varied from evasion to outright lies. The worst buying experience of any kind in my life.

Keith

David has asked for his images to be removed under copyright law. If he can prove it I'll have to take them down. In the meantime, I'd suggest hosting the images outside of FPG, just in case.

[fountainpenkid]

I am sad to see this progression...it now seems that he is not simply a careless seller from another country but a dishonest one as well. I will never buy from him again. Many thanks to ksh for the heads up!

[ksh]

The photos of the pen he sold to me, that I posted here, were taken by me. As for his pics, there is no copyright protection in the US unless he takes out a copyright. It isn't some inherent property of any photo posted on the net. He has been begging me to assist in taking down this thread. Here is my last message, as in final, to him:

Let's not pretend that you gave me a refund because you had some moral awakening. You gave me a refund (and still refused to accept a return, even though that's what I wanted), because ... [you knew] that if you did not resolve things with me there was no chance that you'd ever sell a pen on FPN again. What you did was not an innocent mistake or mere negligence. It was theft. You knew the deplorable condition of the pen and you tried to hide it, and when I called you on it, you lied. So let's be blunt -- I think you are a crook with no moral conscience. I hope you are barred for the rest of your life from selling a pen anywhere. And I do not want to hear from you again.

Keith

[Susan3141]

I received a message from David also. He finally agreed to refund the repair costs for the MB he sold me. So, I am grateful for that and wanted to acknowledge it. I don't think it would have happened without Keith's experience being posted on FPN and informing moderators here and on FPN.

All the same, he asked me in another message to delete this thread, which I will leave up to the moderator.

I hope this leads to better business practices by David in the future. But I still think we need some sort of rating system for buyers and sellers to help prevent this sort of problem.

Susan

[ksh]

I strongly urge that this thread not be taken down. If I had read this, I never would have bought the pen. This thread may spare someone else the aggravation I went through.
One more thought re copyright. I am pretty certain that copyright protection cannot be created after the fact. The pics he sent to me and posted on FPN were not copyrighted. I can do whatever I want with them. I'm not a copyright lawyer, but I doubt you can post something on the web, as he did, then later get a copyright, (which he will never really do anyway), and then claim protection for something you put unprotected into the stream of public communications.

[Laura N]

FWIW, I think this thread should remain up, with or without the photos from the classified ad.

[ksh]

The photos of the pen he sold to me, that I posted here, were taken by me. As for his pics, there is no copyright protection in the US unless he takes out a copyright. It isn't some inherent property of any photo posted on the net.
Keith

I was wrong about copyright protection. Turns out, it is not required to register in order to have some protections. However, there is a "fair use" doctrine, that, I am told, generally permits publication by a non-owner in circumstances where the economic value of the item being published is not reduced by the publication, where the publication is for the purpose of criticism, and where there is a public benefit to the publication.

[ethernautrix]

Take a picture of the pictures. He put the pictures up on the Internet... take a picture of them on your computer screen....

[fncll]

To understand fair use a bit more completely, you should Google the "four factors"

[harrysnyder]

Ahh that might explain it. English is my second language too and I still have problems with tenses even after living here awhile.

Betcha he cashed the check that was written in English.