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Annie
May 3rd, 2013, 02:10 PM
Being confused is normal for me but I'm hoping for some clarification. I've dipped into the big other thread and not sure it gives me an answer.

So...

I used to post somewhere else. The head honcho didn't like what I posted. Oddly, I don't blame him entirely because he was lied to and bless him, he bought into the crap.

The question is then, having been banned, can I ask the head honcho, everso politely, to remove all my content from his forum? Also, as a former financial contributor, can I ask to see the accounts?

KCat
May 3rd, 2013, 03:06 PM
Hi Annie,

We do not remove content from the board.* The reason being that if we remove content, we lose context. This is something we struggle with even when it comes to dealing with offensive material that is posted (flame wars, profanity, etc.) - that is, how to clean up ugliness without losing continuity. So, no, it would be of no value to ask to remove your content.

There's been some discussion of the financial circumstances already in Community Feedback, I believe. That may answer your second question.

*realizing that it might not seem that way to the person who doesn't see what's going on behind the moderator/admin wall.

HTH,
KCat

Annie
May 3rd, 2013, 03:19 PM
Hi Annie,

We do not remove content from the board.* The reason being that if we remove content, we lose context. This is something we struggle with even when it comes to dealing with offensive material that is posted (flame wars, profanity, etc.) - that is, how to clean up ugliness without losing continuity. So, no, it would be of no value to ask to remove your content.

There's been some discussion of the financial circumstances already in Community Feedback, I believe. That may answer your second question.

*realizing that it might not seem that way to the person who doesn't see what's going on behind the moderator/admin wall.

HTH,
KCat

I know you do not "remove content from the board." This does not seem to be a legal stance but down to what ever the board wants to do. If however, I own my own copyright (which I do) could I not ask using legal means, for that to be done by the board owner?

The financial concerms are not covered by those in Community Feedback. So, I will ask again: If I contribute to an organisation, do I have any entitlement to see how my money was spent? Where are accounts published? Who is permitted to see them?

KCat
May 3rd, 2013, 03:32 PM
I'm afraid you are talking about a forum which is not a copyrighted object. Laws re. these boards are still very loose as I'm sure you are aware. Maybe less so in the UK but the board isn't hosted in the UK and hosting location is pertinent to the question. If I have a discussion with you face-to-face, you do not copyright your words as you speak. This is how these forums are viewed in the US and in many other countries, as I understand it. And, if you recall, you agreed to terms of service upon signing up for FPN which essentially gives away your right to the precious words you typed. Images are another matter. If you posted images, then they are yours. This is something you can broach with admin. But posts are just conversation. Unless, of course, you posted copyrighted material such as stories or poems. In which case, that was just um...well, I wouldn't have done that.

You're asking the wrong person when it comes to the money. I told you what I know. There was a discussion in Community Feedback. I didn't read it all. I have a life I'm trying to live and it's not all stone fruit and dairy product so it doesn't involve counting the pennies I've spread out over the last 10 years on FPN.

Can't help more than that. Sorry. Wish I hadn't tried to help.

Not off to a good start, am I guys?

aschup
May 3rd, 2013, 03:34 PM
By agreeing to a forum's rules/terms of service you give them the right to publish your posts and to edit/delete them (or keep them) as they see fit.

And I can't think of any context where a voluntary donation would legally compel an entity to give you access to financial records or accounts.

KCat
May 3rd, 2013, 03:38 PM
By agreeing to a forum's rules/terms of service you give them the right to publish your posts and to edit/delete them (or keep them) as they see fit.

And I can't think of any context where a voluntary donation would legally compel an entity to give you access to financial records or accounts.

My church certainly hasn't ever volunteered that information. I think the only people they are somewhat beholden to is the government. Well, and You Know Who Up On High. :)

david i
May 3rd, 2013, 04:57 PM
Hi Annie,

We do not remove content from the board.* The reason being that if we remove content, we lose context. This is something we struggle with even when it comes to dealing with offensive material that is posted (flame wars, profanity, etc.) - that is, how to clean up ugliness without losing continuity. So, no, it would be of no value to ask to remove your content.

There's been some discussion of the financial circumstances already in Community Feedback, I believe. That may answer your second question.

*realizing that it might not seem that way to the person who doesn't see what's going on behind the moderator/admin wall.

HTH,
KCat

Well, FPN certainly does remove content from the board, independent of profanity, etc issues.

Of course, perhaps KCat describes a different Board. In that case, please disregard this post.

Perhaps, if KCat references FPN, what would be better to say, here, is that FPN does remove content from the board, indeed, frequently so. However, it does so at the whim of FPN, not at the whim of its members.

Nothing wrong with that, I suppose, but always good to be clear.

If KCat references another board, then I cannot comment as to actual policies.

warm regards,

David

CS388
May 3rd, 2013, 05:19 PM
Anytime I've put anything (at all) onto the internet, I've just assumed: it's out there now and I've relinquished all control over it.

I've put copyright marks on some photographs and short films, but, again, once they're out there, they're out there.
I did have one of my films appear on someone else's website without permission. I wrote to them and asked them to credit me, or remove it. Got no response. Eventually the website disappeared.
It may happen again. I guess I'll just have to take it on the chin. One of the joys/pitfalls of engaging with the global interface.

Can't help you with the financial question, I'm afraid.

Good luck.

Phoenix
May 3rd, 2013, 06:06 PM
I beg to differ with the statement "We do not remove content from the board." Aside from FPN removing the topic Are Premium Accounts Well Designed? on April 11th several weeks of posts made by the members who were banned/suspended were also removed. These other posts were on normal pen related topics. Was this a punnitive action?

A list of members banned/suspended from FPN

HughC
Collectiblepens.com
mmahany
JBB
Tandaina
Repreive
sloegin
fountainpenkid
Greg Minuskin
Annie


....and David i who did a lot more than get banned.

AltecGreen
May 3rd, 2013, 07:49 PM
....and David i who did a lot more than get banned.

Actually David I did not get banned. He parted ways before he was banned and came up with a way to get FPN to delete his content.

heraclitus682
May 3rd, 2013, 08:24 PM
OMG! Would somebody just say what happened between David and FPN already?

HughC
May 3rd, 2013, 08:39 PM
I also left prior to being banned...only just though..I'd prefer the status "resigned" than "away" but that's life....

Seeing the "books" is an interesting question, we know the FPN is now incorporated ( where isn't known ). It would be unlikely in Aust. they would need to lodge financial reports, hence the answer is no. In the "bigger picture" though transparency where donations are being requested/ sponsorship or like is a wise move so that those donating can check their money is used for the stated purpose ( as opposed to dinner out with a few friends..). I think posting the financial report with a list of donors would be a reassuring gesture.

Regards
Hugh

jor412
May 3rd, 2013, 08:43 PM
I'm interested in the issue of copyright as an issue. I'm neither a lawyer nor am I emotionally invested in the current argument.

So if a forum is not a copyrighted object, it being treated as conversation -- yet, oddly enough having the "permanency" of print -- then theoretically, anyone can steal the forum's contents, do some rewording or paraphrasing, have it published in a journal, and then claim that this is his idea and research.

HughC
May 3rd, 2013, 08:51 PM
OMG! Would somebody just say what happened between David and FPN already?

As I see it David left then requested they remove his photos from the posts he'd made, he hosted the photos elsewhere. FPN claimed this would be too difficult so David replaced his pictures with those of nude women ( quiet nice looking ones too...but that's not the issue), the photos disappeared very quickly then. A means to an end I guess although given FPN is open to any age user perhaps not the most appropriate action. There's probably more behind the scenes stuff that occurred prior to this happening, probably both parties should share the "blame".

Regards
Hugh

david i
May 3rd, 2013, 09:00 PM
OMG! Would somebody just say what happened between David and FPN already?

That's our season finale cliffhanger... ;)

regards

david

david i
May 3rd, 2013, 09:04 PM
OMG! Would somebody just say what happened between David and FPN already?

As I see it David left then requested they remove his photos from the posts he'd made, he hosted the photos elsewhere. FPN claimed this would be too difficult so David replaced his pictures with those of nude women ( quiet nice looking ones too...but that's not the issue), the photos disappeared very quickly then. A means to an end I guess although given FPN is open to any age user perhaps not the most appropriate action. There's probably more behind the scenes stuff that occurred prior to this happening, probably both parties should share the "blame".

Regards
Hugh

Fer cryin' out loud, Hugh... :)

Try a cover from a newsstand (albeit back-row) tattoo art magazine. Aesthetically interesting and PG-13 rated. Of note, no one from FPN told me it would be too difficult to remove my photos. Rather, FPN seemed uninterested in pursuing. So... I gave gave FPN... interest... in pursuing. Motivation is everything, baby...

Nothing major...

regards

d

KCat
May 3rd, 2013, 09:06 PM
...

never mind. cavorting in the mud with the pigs.

HughC
May 3rd, 2013, 09:19 PM
OMG! Would somebody just say what happened between David and FPN already?

As I see it David left then requested they remove his photos from the posts he'd made, he hosted the photos elsewhere. FPN claimed this would be too difficult so David replaced his pictures with those of nude women ( quiet nice looking ones too...but that's not the issue), the photos disappeared very quickly then. A means to an end I guess although given FPN is open to any age user perhaps not the most appropriate action. There's probably more behind the scenes stuff that occurred prior to this happening, probably both parties should share the "blame".

Regards
Hugh

Fer cryin' out loud, Hugh... :)

Try a cover from a newsstand (albeit back-row) tattoo art magazine. Esthetically interesting and PG-13 rated. Of note, no one from FPN told me it would be too difficult to remove my photos. Rather, FPN seemed uninterested in pursuing. So... I gave gave FPN... interest... in pursuing. Motivation is everything, baby...

Nothing major...

regards

d

Hey...I'd didn't see any tattoo on the babe I saw...god knows what I was looking at that I missed it...

I like mango pudding
May 3rd, 2013, 09:19 PM
whoa, high drama on the fountain front there.

Eerily similar to one of the other forums I belong to in another hobby. There were accusations of financial improprietary and bannings for even asking out in public to outright bannings of those who even questioned the integrity of the forum admins and mods. There was a breakaway group forming a mutiny and they eventually formed their own discussion board. Eventually there was some sort of amnesty but the lingering hate was still evident in the sarcasm in some of the posts when referring to the incidents and or former members.

The different boards work together of sorts to flush out the scammer sellers. Seems to be a solution that works only out of need to protect the members of that particular hobby.

Although I don't know any of the history or politics of the "other" forum, its all in the same thing. I've seen it happen.

david i
May 3rd, 2013, 09:22 PM
...

never mind. cavorting in the mud with the pigs.

Tactic 1 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "When you have nothing of substance to advance a discussion, attempt to divert from that via Ad Hominem Insult"

Just sayin'...

KCat
May 3rd, 2013, 09:26 PM
I don't want to argue with folks. Yes, there are adjustments made to individual posts when content is considered inflammatory. Everyone knows that. It's called "moderating". DUH! Why do we have to go into a ridiculous and petty argument about it? It's not always done to everyone's liking. Sometimes it's done poorly. But that isn't what was being discussed here and I'm really impressed with the folks who are taking me to task by taking this thread off kilter into that arena (NOT)!

I'm talking about the wholesale removal of a person's entire posting content over the lifetime of their membership with the board.

I didn't come here to be an FPN emissary or try to defend FPN methods. I saw what I thought was a valid question re: removal of AN ACCOUNT AND ITS FULL CONTENT! and answered it as best I could and instead I feel attacked. Gee thanks. Peachy keen! If your intent was to keep me off FPGeeks, you probably succeeded.

TOODLE PIP Y'ALL.

david i
May 3rd, 2013, 09:27 PM
whoa, high drama on the fountain front there.

SNIP

Although I don't know any of the history or politics of the "other" forum, its all in the same thing. I've seen it happen.

Human nature is human nature...

As an aside, I like mango pudding too.

regards

david

david i
May 3rd, 2013, 09:42 PM
I don't want to argue with folks. Yes, there are adjustments made to individual posts when content is considered inflammatory. Everyone knows that. It's called "moderating". DUH! Why do we have to go into a ridiculous and petty argument about it? It's not always done to everyone's liking. Sometimes it's done poorly. But that isn't what was being discussed here and I'm really impressed with the folks who are taking me to task by taking this thread off kilter into that arena (NOT)!

I'm talking about the wholesale removal of a person's entire posting content over the lifetime of their membership with the board.

I didn't come here to be an FPN emissary or try to defend FPN methods. I saw what I thought was a valid question re: removal of AN ACCOUNT AND ITS FULL CONTENT! and answered it as best I could and instead I feel attacked. Gee thanks. Peachy keen! If your intent was to keep me off FPGeeks, you probably succeeded.

TOODLE PIP Y'ALL.

Golly,

Talking about poor management and poor moderation rather are the points of the entire thread. It's called, "analysis of bad moderaters"... DUH! (golly, I hate capital letters and exclamation points, but there is room for parallelisms)

Paranoia, "I'm really impressed with the folks who are taking me to task....snip... instead I feel attacked"

Refreshment:


Quote Originally Posted by KCat View Post
...

never mind. cavorting in the mud with the pigs.

Another excerpt.


Peachy keen! If your intent was to keep me off FPGeeks, you probably succeeded.


Tactic 27 from the LDM: "When unable to advance discussion with points of substance, announce one is taking toys and going home". (also called the "Passive/Aggressive flourish"...

Seriously, you came here, acted condescendingly, insulted those whom you engaged in conversation, and two posts later are leaving? Can't you just invisible the posts you don't like... oh... wait... wrong board. Sorry...

regards

david

AltecGreen
May 3rd, 2013, 10:07 PM
whoa, high drama on the fountain front there.

Eerily similar to one of the other forums I belong to in another hobby. There were accusations of financial improprietary and bannings for even asking out in public to outright bannings of those who even questioned the integrity of the forum admins and mods. There was a breakaway group forming a mutiny and they eventually formed their own discussion board. Eventually there was some sort of amnesty but the lingering hate was still evident in the sarcasm in some of the posts when referring to the incidents and or former members.

The different boards work together of sorts to flush out the scammer sellers. Seems to be a solution that works only out of need to protect the members of that particular hobby.

Although I don't know any of the history or politics of the "other" forum, its all in the same thing. I've seen it happen.

These things come in cycles

I think a lot of people do not know the origins of FPN. Prior to the formation of FPN, Pentrace was a much more active forum and had the role that FPN has now in the hierarchy of pen forums. The most if not all of the founders of FPN as well as many of the oldest members were all part of Pentrace. There were major tensions and disagreements and the founders of FPN splintered from Pentrace. That was in 2004, give or take. Even as of a two years ago, there was still a lot of animosity harbored by some of the longtime members on PT towards the founders of FPN. There is irony that the breakaway happened at a time when there were serious technical difficulties on PT. This is not even the first time that there has been this sort of drama in the pen world.

I find it ironic that some people in the big FPN thread keep referring to the discussions on that thread as uncivil and full of vitriol. I find the discussions there fairly tame. I'm not sure they understand what vitriol and venom is. When Elaine, an admin on FPN, went back to PT two years ago to give an update on why FPN was down, there was true vitriol and uncivility. Personally, I think that a lot of the issues with FPN can really only dealt with by clearing the air and having an open discussion. This discussion is not going to be pleasant; life is not always pleasant. The alternative is that one side will keep their silence and the other side will keep hammering. The problem is everytime someone new gets banned or something else happens on FPN, the old wounds become fresh wounds again. The only way to put an end to it and reach some understanding is to confront the issue not hide from them.

Every year I go to the LA pen show, I run into Rita Carbon. I don't think a year has gone by where she does not spend some time in our conversations going over her banning three years ago. She is still bitter about what happened and there is not closure. Some of the posts in the big FPN thread made me go back and re-read the private communications I had with Rita while she was being banned. (We were chatting in real time when the hammer came down on her by Wim). I guess nothing has changed in three years.

KCat
May 3rd, 2013, 10:12 PM
Golly,

Talking about poor management and poor moderation rather are the point of the entire thread. It's called, "analysis of bad moderaters"... DUH! (golly, I hate capital letters and exclamation points, but there is room for parallelisms)

Paranoia, "I'm really impressed with the folks who are taking me to task....snip... instead I feel attacked"

Refreshment:


Quote Originally Posted by KCat View Post
...

never mind. cavorting in the mud with the pigs.

Another excerpt.


Peachy keen! If your intent was to keep me off FPGeeks, you probably succeeded.


Tactic 27 from the LDM: "When unable to advance discussion with points of substance, announce one is taking toys and going home". (also called the "Passive/Aggressive flourish"...

Seriously, you came here, acted condescendingly, insulted those whom you engaged in conversation, and two posts later are leaving? Can't you just invisible the posts you don't like... oh... wait... wrong board. Sorry...

regards

david

You are right Dr. You're absolutely right. All of what you said is true. I was hurt and I wanted to run away because of that. I flounced in my hissy fit. Gawd! How silly! By the way, exclamation points are perfectly acceptable after exclamations. Ask any editor.

Some very nice people, many of them friends, welcomed me here and acted as if they wouldn't mind me being here despite the fact that I am an FPNer. I came here seeking friends and pens and I tried to help someone who seemed to want help but then it appeared she just wanted to pile onto FPN people. So, I got upset. I think that is a normal human response, although perhaps not acceptable. And a bit childish. Not something I usually do. No excuse.

So sorry about the capital letters. Happens when I'm upset. I'll try to avoid it in the future for your sake. :P I did insult with the pigs comment. Actually, that was just aimed at you. Just to be clear. No one else here angered me as much. They hurt me, but they didn't anger me. But again, not something in my nature to do so I feel bad about it. Not sure what came over me. Oh yes, I am. I felt attacked so I attacked back. Funny how that works.

But you know. No excuse.

All in all, I am disappointed in myself. There are good people here. I know that. My apologies to those good people for losing my temper. Won't happen again. Maybe I just had too much espresso today. Or not enough. Hmm.

I like mango pudding
May 3rd, 2013, 10:15 PM
These things come in cycles

I think a lot of people do not know the origins of FPN. Prior to the formation of FPN, Pentrace was a much more active forum and had the role that FPN has now in the hierarchy of pen forums. The most if not all of the founders of FPN as well as many of the oldest members were all part of Pentrace. There were major tensions and disagreements and the founders of FPN splintered from Pentrace. That was in 2004, give or take. Even as of a two years ago, there was still a lot of animosity harbored by some of the longtime members on PT towards the founders of FPN. There is irony that the breakaway happened at a time when there were serious technical difficulties on PT. This is not even the first time that there has been this sort of drama in the pen world.





This could be referring to the other hobby forum that I am on as well. The EXACT same thing happened and exact same sort of history with breakaway new forums created. Yes, it all goes in cycles. I've been through one in my other forum. The same thing happened a couple of years before I joined as well.

Thanks for the history lesson. Good to know where things are coming from.

KCat
May 3rd, 2013, 10:23 PM
As one of the first three admins of FPN, I can say that is not exactly the origin of FPN. We didn't splinter from Pentrace. We were refugees from Rambling Snail. I have written a long piece on the origin of FPN but I don't think anyone here wants to know about it. It had nothing to do with Pentrace. There was animosity between some people from pentrace and people from FPN but not because of any split off of Pentrace to FPN. The animosity came after FPN's founding when pentrace members who joined FPN disagreed on how FPN was run.

It is true that technical difficulties factored into the split. But it was technical difficulty at Rambling Snail. Pentrace did have a lot of outages but their downtimes were usually on the order of minutes or an hour or so. RS went down for days and weeks at a time. The original owner of FPN had never even been on Pentrace when we started FPN.

I only say this to be factually, historically accurate. Not because I think it matters all that much to the other points of your post.

AltecGreen
May 3rd, 2013, 10:36 PM
All in all, I am disappointed in myself. There are good people here. I know that. My apologies to those good people for losing my temper. Won't happen again. Maybe I just had too much espresso today. Or not enough. Hmm.

I don't think you need to be disappointed in yourself. Nor is there a problem with losing one's temper now and again. As I said above, sometimes a little conflict is needed to clear the air.

Just a piece of advice based on my observations over the past three years. By becoming officially connected with FPN, you end up having a target painted on your back once you are away from FPN. If you try to represent FPN on issues like in this topic away from FPN you open yourself to having represent all of FPN, the good and the bad. Don't be naive to think there aren't skeletons in the FPN closet. Unless you are prepared to officially represent FPN on all of the outstanding issues, I would just leave the FPN hat over at FPN. Talk about pens, paper, inks, whatever. For the most part, I believe most here and on other boards will treat you fairly on pen related stuff. You also have to realize that interactions with people who have been aggrieved (real or otherwise) are going to be awkward. That will remain true until the central issues are dealt with (see above).

AltecGreen
May 3rd, 2013, 10:39 PM
As one of the first three admins of FPN, I can say that is not exactly the origin of FPN. We didn't splinter from Pentrace. We were refugees from Rambling Snail. I have written a long piece on the origin of FPN but I don't think anyone here wants to know about it. It had nothing to do with Pentrace. There was animosity between some people from pentrace and people from FPN but not because of any split off of Pentrace to FPN. The animosity came after FPN's founding when pentrace members who joined FPN disagreed on how FPN was run.

It is true that technical difficulties factored into the split. But it was technical difficulty at Rambling Snail. Pentrace did have a lot of outages but their downtimes were usually on the order of minutes or an hour or so. RS went down for days and weeks at a time. The original owner of FPN had never even been on Pentrace when we started FPN.

I only say this to be factually, historically accurate. Not because I think it matters all that much to the other points of your post.

Thanks for the clarification. It's filled in some of the gaps in my own understanding and answered some interesting questions. I think it is actually important for these facts to be known because lessons can be learned from them.

david i
May 3rd, 2013, 11:23 PM
You are right Dr. You're absolutely right. All of what you said is true. I was hurt and I wanted to run away because of that. I flounced in my hissy fit. Gawd! How silly! By the way, exclamation points are perfectly acceptable after exclamations. Ask any editor.

Straw man. The relationship between exclamations and exclamation points was not the issue in play.
SNIP




So sorry about the capital letters. Happens when I'm upset. I'll try to avoid it in the future for your sake. :P I did insult with the pigs comment. Actually, that was just aimed at you. Just to be clear.

No worries. If i were upset by this (as if) would that validate my then saying that i am accepting of intellectually limited people descending into casual insult when they cannot engage in coherent issues-oriented discussion. Hmmm... parallels again? Food fer thought, aye verily. Good thing this stuff never upsets me. Just to be clear ;)


No one else here angered me as much. They hurt me, but they didn't anger me. But again, not something in my nature to do so I feel bad about it. Not sure what came over me. Oh yes, I am. I felt attacked so I attacked back. Funny how that works.

Paranoia. Hostility. Must be fun to be your family...

Warm Regards,

David

dannzeman
May 3rd, 2013, 11:30 PM
KCat, AltecGreen,

It would be nice to get a thorough history lesson from those in the know. I'm sure I can't be the only one who'd be interested.

david i
May 3rd, 2013, 11:31 PM
KCat, AltecGreen,

It would be nice to get a thorough history lesson from those in the know. I'm sure I can't be the only one who'd be interested.

Agreed.

regards

-d

Annie
May 4th, 2013, 12:45 AM
Two pages later, seems the answers are as follows:

No, you cannot insist that your posts are removed and you waived copyright at sign up.
No, you can't see the accounts unless of course you are tax man.

Thanks all for the clarification.

HughC
May 4th, 2013, 04:13 AM
As one of the first three admins of FPN, I can say that is not exactly the origin of FPN. We didn't splinter from Pentrace. We were refugees from Rambling Snail. I have written a long piece on the origin of FPN but I don't think anyone here wants to know about it. It had nothing to do with Pentrace. There was animosity between some people from pentrace and people from FPN but not because of any split off of Pentrace to FPN. The animosity came after FPN's founding when pentrace members who joined FPN disagreed on how FPN was run.

It is true that technical difficulties factored into the split. But it was technical difficulty at Rambling Snail. Pentrace did have a lot of outages but their downtimes were usually on the order of minutes or an hour or so. RS went down for days and weeks at a time. The original owner of FPN had never even been on Pentrace when we started FPN.

I only say this to be factually, historically accurate. Not because I think it matters all that much to the other points of your post.

Hi,

While I had only a short, interesting time on FPN before being guided to the "door" ( and it won't open again !!) I'd certainly be interested in the history of what has become in recent times an "institution" when FP boards are mentioned.

Regards
Hugh

david i
May 4th, 2013, 06:58 AM
I'm always amazed when the "toodle pip" crowd manages to come around for another round, after all.

regards

david

KCat
May 4th, 2013, 08:23 AM
[QUOTE=david i;25390]

All in all, I am disappointed in myself. There are good people here. I know that. My apologies to those good people for losing my temper. Won't happen again. Maybe I just had too much espresso today. Or not enough. Hmm.

I don't think you need to be disappointed in yourself. Nor is there a problem with losing one's temper now and again. As I said above, sometimes a little conflict is needed to clear the air.

Just a piece of advice based on my observations over the past three years. By becoming officially connected with FPN, you end up having a target painted on your back once you are away from FPN. If you try to represent FPN on issues like in this topic away from FPN you open yourself to having represent all of FPN, the good and the bad. Don't be naive to think there aren't skeletons in the FPN closet. Unless you are prepared to officially represent FPN on all of the outstanding issues, I would just leave the FPN hat over at FPN. Talk about pens, paper, inks, whatever. For the most part, I believe most here and on other boards will treat you fairly on pen related stuff. You also have to realize that interactions with people who have been aggrieved (real or otherwise) are going to be awkward. That will remain true until the central issues are dealt with (see above).

You are right, of course. I ignored several warning bells going off rather loudly and let my “know-it-all” gene (I struggle to repress that little clump of proteins) get the best of me. I made several mistakes here. I should not have come out of lurker mode. I’ve made people uncomfortable. I’m not just a moderator but a long-time mod/admin that carries some baggage of controversy beyond just being from FPN. But it’s done and I can’t undo it. I can only watch my future behavior. Thank you for your kindness.

david i
May 4th, 2013, 09:04 AM
\

You are right, of course. I ignored several warning bells going off rather loudly and let my “know-it-all” gene (I struggle to repress that little clump of proteins) get the best of me. I made several mistakes here.
I’ve made people uncomfortable..


We call this projection.

Or, to approach from a different angle. I see no evidence that anyone in this chat is uncomfortable except for you. If you believe others are uncomfortable, please do clarify with specific examples that we can explore.


I should not have come out of lurker mode.

Why?




I’m not just a moderator but a long-time mod/admin that carries some baggage of controversy beyond just being from FPN. But it’s done and I can’t undo it. I can only watch my future behavior. Thank you for your kindness.

Given the expressions here of your thought processes, "I feel attacked", "pigs", etc... I am in fact grateful you posted here. It gives great insight into the mindset of a core Administrator at the Fountain Pen Network and explains at least partially a board that globally treats reasoned disagreement as excuse to attack people and discussions using moderator controls. I thank you very much for sharing with us. And that is no joke.

regards

david

david i
May 4th, 2013, 03:22 PM
At the Chicago Pen Show, I heard today that at FPN's ink forum, one may not criticize specific inks.

Anyone know if this is true?

regards

david

aschup
May 4th, 2013, 04:03 PM
At the Chicago Pen Show, I heard today that at FPN's ink forum, one may not criticize specific inks.

Anyone know if this is true?

regards

david
I think this is a reference to Noodler's Baystate Blue and its tendency to stain, well, everything.

Pterodactylus
May 4th, 2013, 04:03 PM
Hi KCat,

I do know nothing what lead to banning some people from FPN, I also don't know David, he seems to have a long pen collecting history but I don't care.
My personal impression is that whenever it comes to the FPN topic he get very emotional and for me irrational.
For me he acts with respect to this topic almost obsessed and troll like.
To be honest I don't care anymore what happened and why people were banned.
I was banned long time ago from a forum also (hardware not pen related) and I felt also mistreated and was angry.

My personal opinion is, that nobody forces somebody to participate in a forum.
When investing time in a forum I do it to have fun, to communicate with nice people and help where I can.
If for whatever reason I'm not interested anymore to participate or beeing banned for whatever reason (even beeing very angry) I would never try to destroy the existing threads by removing pictures or content, which might leave it unusable for all the others which still have fun participating this forum.
For me such a behavior shows significant character weakness.
Only to take revenge and hit everybody (mainly all the uninvolved other members) as hard as I can is only silly.
And to be even proud of such behavior is in my eyes only dingy.

david i
May 4th, 2013, 04:13 PM
At the Chicago Pen Show, I heard today that at FPN's ink forum, one may not criticize specific inks.

Anyone know if this is true?

regards

david
I think this is a reference to Noodler's Baystate Blue and its tendency to stain, well, everything.

Appreciate the info.

regards

david

david i
May 4th, 2013, 04:21 PM
Hi KCat,

I do know nothing what lead to banning some people from FPN, I also don't know David, he seems to have a long pen collecting history but I don't care.
My personal impression is that whenever it comes to the FPN topic he get very emotional and for me irrational.

Integrated Tactic 1 from the Losing Debater's Manual ("Ad Hominem Insult") and Tactic 5 from the LDM ("The Telepath": absent issues of substance to offer in discussion, offer awareness of your opponent's state of mind, and find it... surprise!... bad"



For me he acts with respect to this topic almost obsessed and troll like.

Tactic 2 from the Losing Debater's Manual "Absent anything of substance to offer in discussion, cry "Troll!")




To be honest I don't care anymore what happened and why people were banned.

That there channel control be easy to reach for those what don't want to follow a thread. Really...



I was banned long time ago from a forum also (hardware not pen related) and I felt also mistreated and was angry.

Thanks for sharing your pain. I hope it helps you to unburden yourself.


My personal opinion is, that nobody forces somebody to participate in a forum.

I don't believe anyone on this board has claimed otherwise...


When investing time in a forum I do it to have fun, to communicate with nice people and help where I can.
If for whatever reason I'm not interested anymore to participate or beeing banned for whatever reason (even beeing very angry) I would never try to destroy the existing threads by removing pictures or content, which might leave it unusable for all the others which still have fun participating this forum.

Or... "Darn that awful world for not doing things as I would do if i were able to do those things if i ever were in that situation.... if...."



For me such a behavior shows significant character weakness.

Tactic 8 from the LDM: "Absent issues-oriented advancement of your position, sssess your opponent's character, and find it lacking."


Only to take revenge and hit everybody (mainly all the uninvolved other members) as hard as I can is only silly.
And to be even proud of such behavior is in my eyes only dingy.

Tactic 3 from the LDM: "Straw Man"

Weird how people who talk about the failings of FPN are whacked at personal level. Lesseee.... "Pigs", "Trolls", "irrational"...

Makes for an interesting discussion though. Thank you :)

regards

david

HughC
May 4th, 2013, 04:26 PM
I'm always amazed when the "toodle pip" crowd manages to come around for another round, after all.

regards

david

What exactly does that mean David ?

Regards
Hugh

david i
May 4th, 2013, 04:37 PM
Hi Hugh,

When what sounds like "Good Bye" turns into "Au revoir"... or something :)

regards

d

Pterodactylus
May 5th, 2013, 12:59 AM
Hi David,

don't hide behind phrases.

You were banned from a forum, so what? Take it like a man, it's only an Internet forum.
Why are you still thinking about it?
It's the past for you, why can't you leave it behind and concentrate on your FPB board and try to make it the best place possible?
FPN does not fail, most people there don't even know that you were contributing there some time, they don't care.
Only some old fellows remember you, every month hundreds of new people joins and the key contributors also changes.

That's how forums work, you think you are important for a forum, you aren't , if you leave (almost) nobody cares, and you will be forgotten very soon, but hey that's ok.

People fill forums with life, but they don't own them, they are only contributors, the people which runs a forum make the rules and set up the environment and this is their right and good so.
You always have the right no longer contribute in such a community, just leave, and the owners have all the right to ban people if they think you do not fit into their community (anymore).

What I don't like is when such people like you, filled with bitterness and possessed to take revenge, campaigning against their former playground and try to spoil the fun of other people.

Don't you see that you only disqualify yourself?

david i
May 5th, 2013, 01:48 AM
Hi David,

don't hide behind phrases.

Tactic 19 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "When you have nothing of substance to offer in a debate, attempt to instruct your opponent in how he should debate".


You were banned from a forum, so what? Take it like a man, it's only an Internet forum.

Tactic 3 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Straw Man"



Why are you still thinking about it?

Tactic 3 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Straw Man"


It's the past for you, why can't you leave it behind and concentrate on your FPB board and try to make it the best place possible?

Tactic 3 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Straw Man"



FPN does not fail, most people there don't even know that you were contributing there some time, they don't care.

Tactic 3 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Straw Man"



Only some old fellows remember you, every month hundreds of new people joins and the key contributors also changes.


Tactic 3 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Straw Man"


That's how forums work, you think you are important for a forum, you aren't , if you leave (almost) nobody cares, and you will be forgotten very soon, but hey that's ok.


Tactic 3 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Straw Man"


People fill forums with life, but they don't own them, they are only contributors, the people which runs a forum make the rules and set up the environment and this is their right and good so.

Tactic 3 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Straw Man"



You always have the right no longer contribute in such a community, just leave, and the owners have all the right to ban people if they think you do not fit into their community (anymore).

Tactic 3 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Straw Man"


What I don't like is when such people like you, filled with bitterness and possessed to take revenge, campaigning against their former playground and try to spoil the fun of other people.

Tactic 3 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Straw Man"

Also: Projection

Also: Bigotry ("you people")

Also: Tactic 5: The Telepath. "When you are losing a debate on issues of substance, act as though you can read the mind of your opponent, and announce that what you find there is... surprise!... bad"


Also: Tactic 1: "When you are losing a debate on issues of substance, engage in Ad Hominem Insult"



Don't you see that you only disqualify yourself?


Tactic 3 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Straw Man"


I weep for Wim and his buds if this be the best they have to offer.

Anyone for a discussion on actual points of substance?

Just sayin'... ;)

Warmest Regards,

David

de_pen_dent
May 5th, 2013, 05:40 AM
You are right, of course. I ignored several warning bells going off rather loudly and let my “know-it-all” gene (I struggle to repress that little clump of proteins) get the best of me. I made several mistakes here. I should not have come out of lurker mode. I’ve made people uncomfortable. I’m not just a moderator but a long-time mod/admin that carries some baggage of controversy beyond just being from FPN. But it’s done and I can’t undo it. I can only watch my future behavior. Thank you for your kindness.

Ehh.. for the most part, it is civil, except for one particularly emotionally upset person who cannot help but make every discussion about FPN into a personal slanging contest. It was irritating at first, but now, it is actually quite amusing to see him come in and try to pick an argument, regardless of whether people want to have one or not. I cannot wait to see what little gem he comes up with in response to this. Probably a reference to the Loser's Debating Manual (a nice little strawman of his own), and/or some reference to projection (also conveniently ignoring his own issues). He's like a stereotypical bitter ex after a bad breakup - not worth engaging in any shape or form, atleast on this subject. I am surprised to see this level of adolescent angst here, though.

Anyway, to answer the OP's questions:

1/ Whether or not you have the right to have your posts deleted can, to some extent, be determined by the agreement. For the most part, I do not think you have any specific legal grounds for removing your posts. Copyright issues relate to unauthorized usage - in this case, you posted the content voluntarily. As long as no one is passing it off as their own, it remains a grey area. You'll need to discuss with a lawyer to get more clarity.

2/ No, you definitely do not have any rights to view the financial statements. You are paying to use the services - it doesnt make you a shareholder or someone with a stake in the company, anymore than buying something entitles you to the financial workings of the company producing the product.

david i
May 5th, 2013, 05:52 AM
Ehh.. for the most part, it is civil, except for one particularly emotionally upset person who cannot help but make every discussion about FPN into a personal slanging contest.

Tactic 1 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "When you cannot accomplish your goals via issues-oriented argumentation, engage in Ad Hominem Insult in an attempt to distract"

There, is, after all a reason it is the first tactic :)

Tactic 5 from the LDM: "When you cannot accomplish your goals via issues-oriented argumentation, assert you know the mind of your opponent and announce that what you found there is... surprise!... bad"




It was irritating at first, but now, it is actually quite amusing to see him come in and try to pick an argument, regardless of whether people want to have one or not.


Tactic 17 from the LDM: "When you cannot accomplish your goals via issues-oriented argumentation, profess amusement"



I cannot wait to see what little gem he comes up with in response to this.

Tactic 23 from the LDM: "When you cannot accomplish your goals via issues-oriented argumentation, profess... anticipation"



Probably a reference to the Loser's Debating Manual (a nice little strawman of his own), and/or some reference to projection (also conveniently ignoring his own issues).

Tactic 7 from the LDM: "When you cannot accomplish your goals via issues-oriented argumentation, endeavor to adopt the tactics of your opponent"



He's like a stereotypical bitter ex after a bad breakup - not worth engaging in any shape or form, atleast on this subject. I am surprised to see this level of adolescent angst here, though.

Tactic 1 from the LDM: "When you cannot accomplish your goals via issues-oriented argumentation, engage in Ad Hominem insult in an attempt to distract"

Tactic 8 from the LDM: When you cannot accomplish your goals via issues-oriented argumentation, profess to know the emotional state of you opponent and-- invariably-- find it to be... bad"

-----------------

Some observations here?

An FPN Admin lasted just a couple posts, in a setting in which she lacked the ability to remove posts that didn't make her happy. Her verbiage was far more harsh than what she commonly erases from her own board. Fascinating.

Those who appeared here to advocate FPN, generally have not advocated for FPN, instead engaging in personal attack... which... makes... all... this... so... ... .... easy.

So, anyone for an issues-oriented conversation? ;)

Warmest Regards

David

aschup
May 5th, 2013, 06:11 AM
Those who appeared here to advocate FPN, generally have not advocated for FPN, instead engaging in personal attack... which... makes... all... this... so... ... .... easy.
Not really. The other thread is pretty long, and there are plenty of people who seem to fall into roughly the same camp as me: I'm in favor of more relaxed moderation generally, in pretty much any context, and I don't really like the move toward tiered memberships. But I get the underlying motivations to try and make FPN meet its costs, and I understand that moderators/admins have a different set of incentives when it comes to things like formulating a policy for deleting old posts (any big board becomes an area of institutionalized knowledge, and allowing free deletion by banned members detracts from that).

There was a point in the thread where asinine conspiracy theories were flying left and right. I find it odd that you didn't feel the need to compulsively refer to the Loser's Debating Manual in regards to those posts, nor do you seem to have any issue with ad hominem when you're the one deploying it (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/1981-What-is-up-with-FPN?p=23443&viewfull=1#post23443). The people "defending" FPN did not attack you initially. At worst they simply commented on your weirdly gleeful attitude towards its technical problems and the ongoing drama.

OcalaFlGuy
May 5th, 2013, 06:25 AM
(Said in support of aschup's post, not Towards him.)

Once one is fully convinced of one's own omnipotence, nothing else matters.

Bruce in Ocala, FL

seffrican
May 5th, 2013, 06:51 AM
(Said in support of aschup's post, not Towards him.)

Once one is fully convinced of one's own omnipotence, nothing else matters.


I would add my voice to supporting aschup's post. Some kindness and gentleness go a long way, as does forgiveness.

That last sentence is potential signature material, BTW.

Overall, the thread has been interesting, if somewhat varied.

I didn't like the recent shift at FPN. I don't like heavy moderation on any forum. Furthermore, I don't think the changes at FPN have redounded to the good of anyone, up to the present at least.

I do think that there are many sides to the discussion. Being too deeply invested emotionally in a position tends to be an obstacle to objective discussion. As does the overindulgence in schadenfreude.

For what my opinion is worth, which is probably very little, I'd rather hear KCat (and others) out than see her run off. And I'd rather not see anyone bullied into silence by the sheer weight of ridiculing verbiage.

david i
May 5th, 2013, 07:01 AM
Not really. The other thread is pretty long, and there are plenty of people who seem to fall into roughly the same camp as me: I'm in favor of more relaxed moderation generally, in pretty much any context, and I don't really like the move toward tiered memberships.

Well, not "not really", or, as they say, "yes really". After all this thread is this thread; it is not that thread. In any case, now that I've called out the behavior cited in my last post, it is good to see attempts at of issues-oriented response. Excellent.


SNIP... institutionalized knowledge, and allowing free deletion by banned members detracts... SNIP


There was a point in the thread where asinine conspiracy theories were flying left and right.

In this context "the" is nonspecific, as already have referenced two separate threads.

Further, citing asininity sans specific example or even specific thread falls into the Ad Hom distraction category.



I find it odd that you didn't feel the need to compulsively refer to the Loser's Debating Manual in regards to those posts,

Tactic 1 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Attempt to distract with Ad Hominem Insult" (as per... "compulsively"). This rather renders moot your subsequent objections on this theme, but I do give you "grasshopper" credit for trying to shift into my proper paradigm for analysis, thus I will play with this a bit more.


Absent specific post quotes (your link seems to give me a page, not specific post), in the specific case this cannot be addressed.

In the general case from the LDM, "Ad Hominem" insult is mitigated via the prophylactic citation of impending potential Ad Hominimity, which indeed was present in my addressing Wim. So we are ok there. Also, clearly the "problem" (which is not a problem in view of the road sign and of the accuracy of the observation) was addressed, which you seem to have missed.



At worst they simply commented on your weirdly gleeful attitude towards its technical problems and the ongoing drama.

Again, Tactic 1 and Tactic 3 dismiss your assertion, but also again, as you are trying to fit yourself into my paradigm, which gives me hope for you, I will give you a bit of leeway, by leading you in the direction of the concerns. "Weirdly" of course is Ad Hom insult. It is not established and it is negative. "Gleeful" is a Tactic 3, Straw Man. Whether or not I am gleeful in this context, which of course is not established, has naught to do with the ongoing "drama".

regards

-d

david i
May 5th, 2013, 07:02 AM
(Said in support of aschup's post, not Towards him.)

Once one is fully convinced of one's own omnipotence, nothing else matters.

Bruce in Ocala, FL

Once one has eaten a Lindt chocolate truffle, it doesn't matter if anything else matters.

And so forth :)

Are we communicatin' yet?

regards

-d

david i
May 5th, 2013, 07:03 AM
SNIP. I'd rather hear KCat (and others) out than see her run off. And I'd rather not see anyone bullied into silence by the sheer weight of ridiculing verbiage.

Hi,

Of note, Kcat was not run off. KCat, upon realizing people actually could disagree with her here and that she could not just erase their posts, engaged in Tactic 27, "The passive aggressive flourish".

regards

david

CS388
May 5th, 2013, 07:18 AM
No, you cannot insist that your posts are removed and you waived copyright at sign up.
...snip...


Annie. There's just been a program on BBC Radio 4, which addresses some of these issues.

Called: Do I Have The Right To Be Forgotten

Because it has just been broadcast, it probably won't be on the BBC iPlayer for an hour, or so.
But I'm sure you'll be able to find it, if you're interested?
If I can, I'll pop back and edit in a link to the program, later on - in case other users are interested.

Here you go: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01pnn4m/Do_I_Have_a_Right_to_Be_Forgotten/

de_pen_dent
May 5th, 2013, 09:09 AM
Tactic 1 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "When you cannot accomplish your goals via issues-oriented argumentation, engage in Ad Hominem Insult in an attempt to distract"

There, is, after all a reason it is the first tactic :)

Tactic 5 from the LDM: "When you cannot accomplish your goals via issues-oriented argumentation, assert you know the mind of your opponent and announce that what you found there is... surprise!... bad"




It was irritating at first, but now, it is actually quite amusing to see him come in and try to pick an argument, regardless of whether people want to have one or not.


Tactic 17 from the LDM: "When you cannot accomplish your goals via issues-oriented argumentation, profess amusement"



I cannot wait to see what little gem he comes up with in response to this.

Tactic 23 from the LDM: "When you cannot accomplish your goals via issues-oriented argumentation, profess... anticipation"



Probably a reference to the Loser's Debating Manual (a nice little strawman of his own), and/or some reference to projection (also conveniently ignoring his own issues).

Tactic 7 from the LDM: "When you cannot accomplish your goals via issues-oriented argumentation, endeavor to adopt the tactics of your opponent"



He's like a stereotypical bitter ex after a bad breakup - not worth engaging in any shape or form, atleast on this subject. I am surprised to see this level of adolescent angst here, though.

Tactic 1 from the LDM: "When you cannot accomplish your goals via issues-oriented argumentation, engage in Ad Hominem insult in an attempt to distract"

Tactic 8 from the LDM: When you cannot accomplish your goals via issues-oriented argumentation, profess to know the emotional state of you opponent and-- invariably-- find it to be... bad"

-----------------

Some observations here?

An FPN Admin lasted just a couple posts, in a setting in which she lacked the ability to remove posts that didn't make her happy. Her verbiage was far more harsh than what she commonly erases from her own board. Fascinating.

Those who appeared here to advocate FPN, generally have not advocated for FPN, instead engaging in personal attack... which... makes... all... this... so... ... .... easy.

So, anyone for an issues-oriented conversation? ;)

Warmest Regards

David


TL;DR.

Nonsensical
May 5th, 2013, 09:22 AM
You know, having read this entire topic, and the other one as well, I have come to one conclusion. The internet has a way of bringing out the worst in people (myself included - been there, done that).

I'm sure most, if not all people involved in the more heated discussions are perfectly reasonable and mature people in real life, but somehow all of that got a little...lost in the course of things.

It DOES make for the most fascinating read, though, I must admit.

P.S. David, you have the BEST troll handbook, ever. It's cyclical in nature, and by so much as acknowledging it exists, anyone who tries to argue with you just can't win.

Pterodactylus
May 5th, 2013, 10:25 AM
It does not mean that he wins, it's more like that you simpy can't discuss something with him as he's hiding behind his phrases, repeating them over and over again.
When he insult somebody, than it is ok for him, like calling the FPN admin a ass first, later that all of "them" are asses, but can't remember and find it anymore later, even when giving him a link to help his memory.

The sad thing is that he seems to be resistent to any insight, convinced that he is soooo smart and that he's fighting a holy war against the evil, in short living a big ego trip.

In such cases I strongly miss moderators here.
And I don't think that FPG can grow strongly without moderation and rules as otherwise it will most likely transform into a not so friendly place.

I really don't think it make any sense to discuss something with him anymore.

AltecGreen
May 5th, 2013, 10:27 AM
For what my opinion is worth, which is probably very little, I'd rather hear KCat (and others) out than see her run off. And I'd rather not see anyone bullied into silence by the sheer weight of ridiculing verbiage.

I would support the idea of a discussion between the various sides at a neutral venue with a neutral moderator. I'll wager that the critics of FPN would agree to such a discussion.

matveik
May 5th, 2013, 10:44 AM
David, you should consider changing your approach. It's tiresome and not at all clever. I really prefer light moderation and we all have recourse to ignoring users, but I think best of all would be to have you ease up a bit and not launch point-counterpoint "LDM" fusillades. I think you mean well and perhaps have lost some perspective.

Farmboy
May 5th, 2013, 10:53 AM
I wonder what it means for an ass to be butt hurt...Jon any good pictures?

OcalaFlGuy
May 5th, 2013, 10:59 AM
In such cases I strongly miss moderators here.
And I don't think that FPG can grow strongly without moderation and rules as otherwise it will most likely transform into a not so friendly place.



The site owner told me he saw Nothing in the FPN thread he'd call venomous. (Hearing that has me wonder if he even understands the
meaning of the word.)

When you make it clear to your members that they can say anything they want to anyone in any tone, there are those who will take
every advantage to do just that.

Letting the inmates of the asylum run amok with no moderation is as much the wrong answer as the iron fisted moderation they so strongly
object to.

Bruce in Ocala, FL

Annie
May 5th, 2013, 11:03 AM
No, you cannot insist that your posts are removed and you waived copyright at sign up.
...snip...


Annie. There's just been a program on BBC Radio 4, which addresses some of these issues.

Called: Do I Have The Right To Be Forgotten

Because it has just been broadcast, it probably won't be on the BBC iPlayer for an hour, or so.
But I'm sure you'll be able to find it, if you're interested?
If I can, I'll pop back and edit in a link to the program, later on - in case other users are interested.

Here you go: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01pnn4m/Do_I_Have_a_Right_to_Be_Forgotten/

CS,

Many thanks for the link. I caught it live while I was driving. It was interesting and gave some good pointers, especially on dealing with obsessive types.

Regards,
Anne

Annie
May 5th, 2013, 11:08 AM
It does not mean that he wins, it's more like that you simpy can't discuss something with him as he's hiding behind his phrases, repeating them over and over again.
When he insult somebody, than it is ok for him, like calling the FPN admin a ass first, later that all of "them" are asses, but can't remember and find it anymore later, even when giving him a link to help his memory.

The sad thing is that he seems to be resistent to any insight, convinced that he is soooo smart and that he's fighting a holy war against the evil, in short living a big ego trip.

In such cases I strongly miss moderators here.
And I don't think that FPG can grow strongly without moderation and rules as otherwise it will most likely transform into a not so friendly place.

I really don't think it make any sense to discuss something with him anymore.

You can actually do your own moderation and not read posts from selected posters.

aschup
May 5th, 2013, 11:28 AM
In such cases I strongly miss moderators here.
And I don't think that FPG can grow strongly without moderation and rules as otherwise it will most likely transform into a not so friendly place.
The site owner told me he saw Nothing in the FPN thread he'd call venomous. (Hearing that has me wonder if he even understands the meaning of the word.)
Actually I agree with him entirely. I moderate a rather large forum of law students and lawyers, and invective flies with great regularity over there. Personally I think it's way more fun and entertaining, but I get that it's not everyone's cup of tea. Still, relative to the rest of the internets, even the most "venomous" of fountain-pen-based conflicts is pretty damn tame.

79spitfire
May 5th, 2013, 12:20 PM
I wonder if the 'What is up with FPN' thread should be merged with this one. http://yoursmiles.org/msmile/think/m1705.gif (http://yoursmiles.org/m-think.php)

Seems to be a lot of :deadhorse: going on.

AltecGreen
May 5th, 2013, 12:25 PM
The site owner told me he saw Nothing in the FPN thread he'd call venomous. (Hearing that has me wonder if he even understands the
meaning of the word.)

When you make it clear to your members that they can say anything they want to anyone in any tone, there are those who will take
every advantage to do just that.

Letting the inmates of the asylum run amok with no moderation is as much the wrong answer as the iron fisted moderation they so strongly
object to.

Bruce in Ocala, FL

I always find it ironic when people bring this point up. You have huge gaming sites like Gamefaqs with minimal moderation and forums full of teenagers. The people there manage to create quite a viable community without any moderation (short of using profanity, racial epitets, etc.). Nothing posted here even comes close to stuff on those boards. The Gamefaqs community is self moderating. If you say something wrong or out of line, you will be called on it. There might be brief moments of childishness but things get sorted out in the end. The same with other popular entertainment sites like Aint it Cool News (AICN). The posters there are even allowed to opening use profanity against the admins and owners of the site. I don't think the lack of strong moderation has hurt the size or growth of the site. For example, on AICN they just fired one of their longtime and popular employees via FaceBook. The admins there allow open comment on their actions without repercussions and they have been getting flamed. Content is what ultimately drives the size of a site and popularity of a site.

I would argue that the topic of FPN itself elicits such strong comments. The rest of the threads on FPGeeks seem to quite free of 'venom' and not running amok. Pentrace is really mellow but discussions over FPN have had in the past the same response as on FPGeeks. Over on FPB which has similar levels of moderation, we can't even get such a flame war to even start on any topic. David's even commented that he expected heated discussions when he started the site and none have materialized. Frankly, if you want David to stop posting in his current then challenge him on strictly on his points. People seem to be upset over his style but not his points. The whole rules things are not things he made up. These are standard things one learns in debate or law school. His presentation may have been over the top.

People have different levels of comfort. What Bruce calls venomous, someone might consider quite mild and tame. Sometimes, I think that people equate 'venom' with anything that is not strictly positive. The great thing is that we do have choice. There are plenty of pen forums or forums on any given topic. They each have their own flavor.

Marsilius
May 5th, 2013, 01:03 PM
Thank you, Altec. I can understand why some of the posts have gotten people hopping hot, and can't blame anyone for being put off or upset: it is a hot topic. Personally I do not like to engage in competitive debate (because I always lose!) and doubt it is making any opposing ends come together on these two threads, but I think the moderators here have done a great job of almost invisible and very smooth keeping the other thread on topic, apparently adopting a clear and reasonable philosophy: off topic redirects become new threads, while any scorpions who want to debate in a wine glass are welcome to have at it :spider::spider:, and substance may be distilled at will.
Best to all!

Annie
May 5th, 2013, 01:27 PM
I wonder if the 'What is up with FPN' thread should be merged with this one. http://yoursmiles.org/msmile/think/m1705.gif (http://yoursmiles.org/m-think.php)

Seems to be a lot of :deadhorse: going on.
As the OP, I did not ever name the forum I was writing about. My intention was to ask general principles rather than specific forums. I had the answers to the questions I asked around two pages back. What has happened to the thread subsequently is a bit baffling. No matter though, least not to me.

Marsilius
May 5th, 2013, 01:29 PM
All roads lead to . . . point taken, Annie!

Jon Szanto
May 5th, 2013, 02:00 PM
I wonder what it means for an ass to be butt hurt...Jon any good pictures?
My skills and resources are always at the ready, but for something like this I prefer to wait until Dan installs one of the vB "spoiler tag" add-ons. Until then, we can at least suggest remedies:


2423

(ETA: I've actually got some thoughts on points raised, but have to pop off to work for a bit. Thanks to AG for keeping things real, in the meantime.)

dannzeman
May 5th, 2013, 02:01 PM
In such cases I strongly miss moderators here.
And I don't think that FPG can grow strongly without moderation and rules as otherwise it will most likely transform into a not so friendly place.



The site owner told me he saw Nothing in the FPN thread he'd call venomous. (Hearing that has me wonder if he even understands the
meaning of the word.)

When you make it clear to your members that they can say anything they want to anyone in any tone, there are those who will take
every advantage to do just that.

Letting the inmates of the asylum run amok with no moderation is as much the wrong answer as the iron fisted moderation they so strongly
object to.

Bruce in Ocala, FL
Just to be perfectly clear, here's exactly what I told Bruce:


Am I to gather correctly that there is Absolutely No Limit to the level of animosity and venom expressed in the general direction of FPN without any sort of even back-channeled moderation to curb it?

Even the most ardent of free speech supporters know that Absolutely free speech isn't a right answer.

BrucePeople have been warned for personal attacks and asked to stop. But we don't consider criticizing a personal attack and aren't about to delete posts because of it. Leaving the comment available for all to read gives more insight into the personality of the commenter and allows the community to decide how involved they want to be with said commenter.

If someone offends you, there's always the ability to ignore (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/profile.php?do=ignorelist) them.

And I have yet to see any comment approaching venomous.

Regards,

Dan

Bruce, I'm sorry that this environment is just too much for you to bear. Maybe FPGeeks isn't the right place for you. We'll let you make that decision, though. Again, the option to ignore a user is always there, and I'm not just talking about not reading a comment, when you add a user to your ignore list it hides all their content from you.

I'm just curious how long your criticizing of mods/admins at FPN would last over there? Isn't it nice to have your opinion be heard and actually stick around?

Jon Szanto
May 5th, 2013, 02:04 PM
Spot on, Dan, 100% spot on.

dannzeman
May 5th, 2013, 02:07 PM
I wonder what it means for an ass to be butt hurt...Jon any good pictures?
My skills and resources are always at the ready, but for something like this I prefer to wait until Dan installs one of the vB "spoiler tag" add-ons...

Jon, sorry, I didn't realize anyone wanted this feature. I'll try to get something installed soon.

klpeabody
May 5th, 2013, 02:32 PM
Dan, you are exactly right. I've read this post. I've read all of the replies. I've read all of the replies to the other thread referenced here, as well. Whether "over the top" or "inflammatory" or what have you....and make no mistake, there is no judgment in what I am about to say....I am now able to make my own accurate and informed decisions. Thank you FPGeeks for not censoring the speech here. For the most part, I find a majority of the posts in this thread, and the other, to contain far less vitriol than most of the notorious "Noodler's" threads that eventually became locked, then deleted in another forum.

Personally, I appreciate that you have allowed people to be exactly who they are. We're all intelligent people, here. It's good to know that we can say what we think, even if someone else might not like it. But, in this particular case, what it has allowed, is a view into character. We've seen a lot from a lot of people in this thread. All of it genuine. I personally appreciate that. That's important. That's just my two cents.

david i
May 5th, 2013, 02:47 PM
P.S. David, you have the BEST troll handbook, ever. It's cyclical in nature, and by so much as acknowledging it exists, anyone who tries to argue with you just can't win.

Tactic 2 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "When you are beaten, try crying "Troll""/

Tactic 3 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Straw Man". eg. whether true or false "you can't win" is irrelevant to the discussion.

Just sayin'...

Warm Regards

David

Manny
May 5th, 2013, 02:47 PM
In such cases I strongly miss moderators here.
And I don't think that FPG can grow strongly without moderation and rules as otherwise it will most likely transform into a not so friendly place.



The site owner told me he saw Nothing in the FPN thread he'd call venomous. (Hearing that has me wonder if he even understands the
meaning of the word.)

When you make it clear to your members that they can say anything they want to anyone in any tone, there are those who will take
every advantage to do just that.

Letting the inmates of the asylum run amok with no moderation is as much the wrong answer as the iron fisted moderation they so strongly
object to.

Bruce in Ocala, FL
Just to be perfectly clear, here's exactly what I told Bruce:


Am I to gather correctly that there is Absolutely No Limit to the level of animosity and venom expressed in the general direction of FPN without any sort of even back-channeled moderation to curb it?

Even the most ardent of free speech supporters know that Absolutely free speech isn't a right answer.

BrucePeople have been warned for personal attacks and asked to stop. But we don't consider criticizing a personal attack and aren't about to delete posts because of it. Leaving the comment available for all to read gives more insight into the personality of the commenter and allows the community to decide how involved they want to be with said commenter.

If someone offends you, there's always the ability to ignore (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/profile.php?do=ignorelist) them.

And I have yet to see any comment approaching venomous.

Regards,

Dan

Bruce, I'm sorry that this environment is just too much for you to bear. Maybe FPGeeks isn't the right place for you. We'll let you make that decision, though. Again, the option to ignore a user is always there, and I'm not just talking about not reading a comment, when you add a user to your ignore list it hides all their content from you.

I'm just curious how long your criticizing of mods/admins at FPN would last over there? Isn't it nice to have your opinion be heard and actually stick around?

So, if someone where to post something like...

http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m496/gclef1114/Tutuguans/12-1-2_zpsf32655bf.jpg

...on this board, and for whatever reason, someone/anyone is "uncomfortable" with it and voices an opinion that could potentially turn it into a bloodbath, because of the topic, there isn't the threat of shutting down the conversation and/or the suspension and/or bannishment of whoever gets involved?
Or...a person who is uncomfortable and/or offended by something like the above, could actually just ignore any future potentially offending posts by the offending user?
(My head hurts.)

david i
May 5th, 2013, 03:01 PM
It does not mean that he wins,

That you are concerned about whether I "win", while I have no concern whatsover about that, perhaps make your remark by far the most charming I've seen in this discussion. Thank you thank you ;)

I do enjoy analysis, exploration of motives and tactics. I remain with the observation that I've commented on behaviors from FPN. Most of those who disagree have not provided counterpoints about FPN. Rather they have gone on warpath personally. Telling behavior and reflective too on the FPN "approach". Frankly, I luv it.



it's more like that you simpy can't discuss something with him as he's hiding behind his phrases, repeating them over and over again.

Tactic 8 from the LDM: "When you cannot make your case in debate based on issues, presume to dictate to your opponent how he should debate".

Should we feel sorry for you? Nah. You're big critter. You can handle the truth, even if you don't want to. Just sayin'...



When he insult somebody, than it is ok for him, like calling the FPN admin a ass first, later that all of "them" are asses, but can't remember and find it anymore later, even when giving him a link to help his memory.


Clearly you did not read the post. Excellent.

Or, as a great physician once said, "I see the Klingon's lips move, but no sound emerges"



The sad thing is that he seems to be resistent to any insight, convinced that he is soooo smart and that he's fighting a holy war against the evil, in short living a big ego trip.

Tactic 5 from the LDM, The Telepath, "When you cannot make your case in debate based on issues, presume to read the mind of your opponent, and announce loudly that what you find there is... surprise!... bad" ;)


In such cases I strongly miss moderators here.

One cannot help but suspect that part of the impetus for the creation of FPG was the desire to have a setting in which the KCat-esque did not determine Moderation. Just sayin'...




And I don't think that FPG can grow strongly without moderation and rules as otherwise it will most likely transform into a not so friendly place.

Ah yes, Tactic 33 from the LDM: "When you have lost on the issues, announce that the host site will never do well if it does not behave as you would have it behave" (see also Tactic 8)


I really don't think it make any sense to discuss something with him anymore.

Yet, here you are... discussing it.

Regards

david

david i
May 5th, 2013, 03:05 PM
David, you should consider changing your approach. It's tiresome and not at all clever. I really prefer light moderation and we all have recourse to ignoring users, but I think best of all would be to have you ease up a bit and not launch point-counterpoint "LDM" fusillades. I think you mean well and perhaps have lost some perspective.

Ya know...

First, anyone is free not to read my approach.

Second, that it tires those who engage in non-issues-oriented argumentation, perhaps is part of its charm.

Third, I don't mean well. I also don't mean 'non-well". That of course has nothing to do with analyzing a discussion. What I mean is to see nonsense dismissed and to see identified the substitution of personal whacks for substantive issues-oriented discussion.

Really, if that bothers one, that should be food for thought, given the above.

regards

david

aschup
May 5th, 2013, 03:14 PM
Tactic 8 from the LDM: "When you cannot make your case in debate based on issues, presume to dictate to your opponent how he should debate".
So meta.

david i
May 5th, 2013, 03:17 PM
I wonder what it means for an ass to be butt hurt...Jon any good pictures?

Hi Todd,

Staying away from the debate aspect of the expression, I can provide you with some images.


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-58ZAGUqXbzI/TeTChdnP8ZI/AAAAAAAABxI/VaPjAJ9nOz0/s320/060127_rm_KickDonkeyTN.jpg

http://www.alsanda.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/donkey-kick-a-man.jpg


http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/VicariousInterest/donkey.jpg

david i
May 5th, 2013, 03:23 PM
The site owner told me he saw Nothing in the FPN thread he'd call venomous. (Hearing that has me wonder if he even understands the
meaning of the word.)

So, now he turns the Ad Hom and Telepath thing on the site itself. Ahhh, yes, Bruce just "knows" our Moderators here must be ignorant since they don't see things as he does.

I weep for the lack of issues-oriented discussion.




When you make it clear to your members that they can say anything they want to anyone in any tone, there are those who will takeevery advantage to do just that.

Translation of bruce-speak from the LDM, "When the site does not do things exactly as I would do, the site is bad". Geez, yet he doesn't thank the Moderators for not erasing his posts critical of the site? Verily, he must like it better here than at FPN. Food fer thought, I suggest...




Letting the inmates of the asylum run amok with no moderation is as much the wrong answer as the iron fisted moderation they so strongly
object to.

Bruce in Ocala, FL

I'd think most people here are more fond of the following aspect of asylum, its #1 definition, "the protection granted by a nation to someone who has left their native country as a political refugee: granting asylum to foreigners persecuted for political reasons."


No worries. If you instead post at FPN instead of FPG, you will find an asylum in which you as a member don't have to worry about running anything.

Strange how it all works out...

regards

-d

david i
May 5th, 2013, 03:25 PM
In such cases I strongly miss moderators here.
And I don't think that FPG can grow strongly without moderation and rules as otherwise it will most likely transform into a not so friendly place.
The site owner told me he saw Nothing in the FPN thread he'd call venomous. (Hearing that has me wonder if he even understands the meaning of the word.)
Actually I agree with him entirely. I moderate a rather large forum of law students and lawyers, and invective flies with great regularity over there. Personally I think it's way more fun and entertaining, but I get that it's not everyone's cup of tea. Still, relative to the rest of the internets, even the most "venomous" of fountain-pen-based conflicts is pretty damn tame.

Putting aside the one point that we have but a report/claim about what the "site owner said", I quite agree with your post.

regards

david

david i
May 5th, 2013, 03:30 PM
The site owner told me he saw Nothing in the FPN thread he'd call venomous. (Hearing that has me wonder if he even understands the
meaning of the word.)

When you make it clear to your members that they can say anything they want to anyone in any tone, there are those who will take
every advantage to do just that.

Letting the inmates of the asylum run amok with no moderation is as much the wrong answer as the iron fisted moderation they so strongly
object to.

Bruce in Ocala, FL

I always find it ironic when people bring this point up. You have huge gaming sites like Gamefaqs with minimal moderation and forums full of teenagers. The people there manage to create quite a viable community without any moderation (short of using profanity, racial epitets, etc.). Nothing posted here even comes close to stuff on those boards. The Gamefaqs community is self moderating. If you say something wrong or out of line, you will be called on it. There might be brief moments of childishness but things get sorted out in the end. The same with other popular entertainment sites like Aint it Cool News (AICN). The posters there are even allowed to opening use profanity against the admins and owners of the site. I don't think the lack of strong moderation has hurt the size or growth of the site. For example, on AICN they just fired one of their longtime and popular employees via FaceBook. The admins there allow open comment on their actions without repercussions and they have been getting flamed. Content is what ultimately drives the size of a site and popularity of a site.

I would argue that the topic of FPN itself elicits such strong comments. The rest of the threads on FPGeeks seem to quite free of 'venom' and not running amok. Pentrace is really mellow but discussions over FPN have had in the past the same response as on FPGeeks. Over on FPB which has similar levels of moderation, we can't even get such a flame war to even start on any topic. David's even commented that he expected heated discussions when he started the site and none have materialized. Frankly, if you want David to stop posting in his current then challenge him on strictly on his points. People seem to be upset over his style but not his points. The whole rules things are not things he made up. These are standard things one learns in debate or law school. His presentation may have been over the top.

People have different levels of comfort. What Bruce calls venomous, someone might consider quite mild and tame. Sometimes, I think that people equate 'venom' with anything that is not strictly positive. The great thing is that we do have choice. There are plenty of pen forums or forums on any given topic. They each have their own flavor.


Hi Ricky,

I quite agree. This is a tame thread. The most angry posters are whining that they cannot score points, and they cannot score points because instead of offering analysis of FPN or of Kcat's comments as a spokesperson for FPN, they merely wish to try personal whacks, and... are not getting away with it.:cry:

Now, whether they can make a good case for FPN on the merits of the argument remains to be seen. I am not hopeful. Were it easy to do, they would have done it. That it perhaps is hard to do, thus indicating they've dealt themselves a bad hand, is why, in part, they retreat to the LDM.

The Loser's Debate Manual serves a couple purposes. It can be used... directly ... by those with either weak debating skills or with a weak position to try to wiggle out of those two realities. For those who prefer ethical tactics and who have both/either a strong position and strong ability to express position, using the LDM as a negative example to pin the weak stance of the opposition offers... entertainment... and offers insights into the tactics of those who actually live the book

Their next tactic when they've failed in round 1 is to complain that "things will never be good here if the moderators don't follow my instructions". We're seeing the breakout phase now of that. Let us call it round 2.

regards

-d

david i
May 5th, 2013, 03:33 PM
SNIP.

I'm just curious how long your criticizing of mods/admins at FPN would last over there? Isn't it nice to have your opinion be heard and actually stick around?

While I actually agree with Dan regarding his entire post and appreciate seeing it (eep, I'm approaching one of the LDM tactics, "sucking up to those who agree with me"), I have to say that line is killer. An entire forum philosophy, and a good one at that, in a mere couple sentences.

best regards,

-d

klpeabody
May 5th, 2013, 03:34 PM
In such cases I strongly miss moderators here.
And I don't think that FPG can grow strongly without moderation and rules as otherwise it will most likely transform into a not so friendly place.



The site owner told me he saw Nothing in the FPN thread he'd call venomous. (Hearing that has me wonder if he even understands the
meaning of the word.)

When you make it clear to your members that they can say anything they want to anyone in any tone, there are those who will take
every advantage to do just that.

Letting the inmates of the asylum run amok with no moderation is as much the wrong answer as the iron fisted moderation they so strongly
object to.

Bruce in Ocala, FL
Just to be perfectly clear, here's exactly what I told Bruce:


Am I to gather correctly that there is Absolutely No Limit to the level of animosity and venom expressed in the general direction of FPN without any sort of even back-channeled moderation to curb it?

Even the most ardent of free speech supporters know that Absolutely free speech isn't a right answer.

BrucePeople have been warned for personal attacks and asked to stop. But we don't consider criticizing a personal attack and aren't about to delete posts because of it. Leaving the comment available for all to read gives more insight into the personality of the commenter and allows the community to decide how involved they want to be with said commenter.

If someone offends you, there's always the ability to ignore (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/profile.php?do=ignorelist) them.

And I have yet to see any comment approaching venomous.

Regards,

Dan

Bruce, I'm sorry that this environment is just too much for you to bear. Maybe FPGeeks isn't the right place for you. We'll let you make that decision, though. Again, the option to ignore a user is always there, and I'm not just talking about not reading a comment, when you add a user to your ignore list it hides all their content from you.

I'm just curious how long your criticizing of mods/admins at FPN would last over there? Isn't it nice to have your opinion be heard and actually stick around?

So, if someone where to post something like...

http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m496/gclef1114/Tutuguans/12-1-2_zpsf32655bf.jpg

...on this board, and for whatever reason, someone/anyone is "uncomfortable" with it and voices an opinion that could potentially turn it into a bloodbath, because of the topic, there isn't the threat of shutting down the conversation and/or the suspension and/or bannishment of whoever gets involved?
Or...a person who is uncomfortable and/or offended by something like the above, could actually just ignore any future potentially offending posts by the offending user?
(My head hurts.)

Dear Manny, based on what I've observed here in the last couple of days (and I'm only a jr member so my opinion doesn't count for much), it seems like you are free to shine your light without fear of deletion. Rock on.

david i
May 5th, 2013, 03:38 PM
Tactic 8 from the LDM: "When you cannot make your case in debate based on issues, presume to dictate to your opponent how he should debate".
So meta.

Zometa. Keep those bones strong and watch that calcium...

Ahh, sorry... it was a looong 13 hour night shift at ze hospital last night... I start free associating. Probably good since its hard for me to get paid to associate...

regards

-d

Sailor Kenshin
May 5th, 2013, 03:49 PM
So, if someone where to post something like...

http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m496/gclef1114/Tutuguans/12-1-2_zpsf32655bf.jpg

...on this board, and for whatever reason, someone/anyone is "uncomfortable" with it and voices an opinion that could potentially turn it into a bloodbath, because of the topic, there isn't the threat of shutting down the conversation and/or the suspension and/or bannishment of whoever gets involved?
Or...a person who is uncomfortable and/or offended by something like the above, could actually just ignore any future potentially offending posts by the offending user?
(My head hurts.)


The Ignore feature was part of FPN, too.

HughC
May 5th, 2013, 03:58 PM
In such cases I strongly miss moderators here.
And I don't think that FPG can grow strongly without moderation and rules as otherwise it will most likely transform into a not so friendly place.



The site owner told me he saw Nothing in the FPN thread he'd call venomous. (Hearing that has me wonder if he even understands the
meaning of the word.)

When you make it clear to your members that they can say anything they want to anyone in any tone, there are those who will take
every advantage to do just that.

Letting the inmates of the asylum run amok with no moderation is as much the wrong answer as the iron fisted moderation they so strongly
object to.

Bruce in Ocala, FL

I've read that entire thread. Overall I found nothing that should overly offend anyone, strong opinions do sometimes lead to less than perfect behaviour. Central to the topic is not how people worded their posts by what caused them to express those opinions. If you look at that topic with a "big picture" view you will gain a much better understanding. Your post would best be described as hypocritical.

Regards
Hugh

david i
May 5th, 2013, 04:07 PM
In such cases I strongly miss moderators here.
And I don't think that FPG can grow strongly without moderation and rules as otherwise it will most likely transform into a not so friendly place.



The site owner told me he saw Nothing in the FPN thread he'd call venomous. (Hearing that has me wonder if he even understands the
meaning of the word.)

When you make it clear to your members that they can say anything they want to anyone in any tone, there are those who will take
every advantage to do just that.

Letting the inmates of the asylum run amok with no moderation is as much the wrong answer as the iron fisted moderation they so strongly
object to.

Bruce in Ocala, FL

I've read that entire thread. Overall I found nothing that should overly offend anyone, strong opinions do sometimes lead to less than perfect behaviour. Central to the topic is not how people worded their posts by what caused them to express those opinions. If you look at that topic with a "big picture" view you will gain a much better understanding. Your post would best be described as hypocritical.

Regards
Hugh

You mean, (per the bold text), because Bruce appears to be an inmate trying to run the asylum, while griping that inmates are running the asylum?

That was... something. ;)

regards

David

Pendragon
May 5th, 2013, 04:15 PM
Letting the inmates of the asylum run amok with no moderation is as much the wrong answer as the iron fisted moderation they so strongly
object to.


But at least the inmates in the asylum have a Lamy forum. ;)

Seriously, I don't think that labeling a Fpgeeks an "insane asylum" is fair. IMHO, it is far better to have a venue in which the administration is laid back and member input is valued. The tone here is very friendly, congenial and informative, at least from what I have seen.

Totalitarian approaches typically create much discord, resentment and confusion, especially from those who are negatively affected, with correspondingly little benefit. What is worse, people with a sword hanging over their head might well withhold useful information, lest they be somehow chastised for doing so. The focus at Fpgeeks is camaraderie, learning and a shared enthusiasm of fountain pens and writing. It is hard to find fault with that. Sure, there is criticism of a forum with iron-fisted moderation, but that is true for hobbyist forums in general. When somebody is poked with a sharp stick, they will yell "ouch" regardless of the hobby or special interest involved. No surprise there.

JustinJ
May 5th, 2013, 09:13 PM
Hi Manny,

I noticed your last post at FPN. A very interesting Salvo. We will see how long it stays up.

I am not religious but respect peoples' choice to be religious or non-religious. I had a post deleted of mine on FPN because I mentioned I was not religious. It was a question asked about the Masons and memberships.

I have no problem with what you wrote. I value freedom of speech and can moderate others myself by not reading their posts, not that your posts bothers me. The atmosphere in this forum is much more congenial from what I've read. It is not so sterile in its approach.

Now, if I could just find my Waverly nib, all would be good.

Manny
May 5th, 2013, 09:42 PM
Hi Manny,

I noticed your last post at FPN. A very interesting Salvo. We will see how long it stays up.

I am not religious but respect peoples' choice to be religious or non-religious. I had a post deleted of mine on FPN because I mentioned I was not religious. It was a question asked about the Masons and memberships.

I have no problem with what you wrote. I value freedom of speech and can moderate others myself by not reading their posts, not that your posts bothers me. The atmosphere in this forum is much more congenial from what I've read. It is not so sterile in its approach.

Now, if I could just find my Waverly nib, all would be good.

http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m496/gclef1114/Tutuguans/0505132338-1_zpsca0e4256.jpg

Jon Szanto
May 5th, 2013, 09:48 PM
I am not religious but respect peoples' choice to be religious or non-religious. I had a post deleted of mine on FPN because I mentioned I was not religious.
One of my oddest experiences there, if not the oddest, was regarding religion. I spoke about some religious topic or aspect in some fashion, and was issued a warning by a mod: religious topics were not allowed. In less than 24 hours, that very same mod posted a public thread, asking for prayers for a family member.

I try to be a kind person, and I don't wear my particular religious beliefs on my sleeve, so I would have felt very small and hardened to have called the person out in their time of distress. As is obvious, though, the hypocrisy of that turn of events still bothers me.

Pendragon
May 5th, 2013, 10:23 PM
I had a post deleted of mine on FPN because I mentioned I was not religious. It was a question asked about the Masons and memberships.


It is not only you, and is something that started many years ago. I have had a number of completely inoffensive posts deleted for no apparent reason, and have seen the same happen to others. Once the "offending" poster was even banned. Other posts, far more edgy in nature, were allowed to remain. Very contentious threads would eventually be locked, but innocuous and productive threads would sometimes be locked in mid-discussion. Very puzzling to say the least.

My take is that FPN has outgrown its current business model. Perhaps the solution is to turn FPN into a non-profit corporation with a member-elected Board of Directors. It has worked quite well for the Pen Collectors of America, so why not for FPN? PCA has encountered some stormy seas in the past, but the structure of their non-profit allowed them to weather those storms and emerge better than ever. Although FPN cannot charge for forum membership to the best of my knowledge, there could be a fee for the non-profit corporation membership. That would both ensure adequate funding and ensure the burdens of funding and operating the very large forum are shouldered by the many rather than the few. If the forum then winds up being mismanaged, the non-profit members would have only themselves to blame.

Just my two cents. I wish all the fountain pen forums well, and all those interested in fountain pens, too.

david i
May 5th, 2013, 10:56 PM
c

My take is that FPN has outgrown its current business model. Perhaps the solution is to turn FPN into a non-profit corporation with a member-elected Board of Directors. It has worked quite well for the Pen Collectors of America, so why not for FPN? PCA has encountered some stormy seas in the past, but the structure of their non-profit allowed them to weather those storms and emerge better than ever. Although FPN cannot charge for forum membership to the best of my knowledge, there could be a fee for the non-profit corporation membership. That would both ensure adequate funding and ensure the burdens of funding and operating the very large forum are shouldered by the many rather than the few. If the forum then winds up being mismanaged, the non-profit members would have only themselves to blame.

Just my two cents. I wish all the fountain pen forums well, and all those interested in fountain pens, too.

Hi,

Admirable but probably not realistic. Wim appears to own that board, and the board has grown large enough to allow potentially significant monetization. I cannot address claims by FPN that it seeks only to finance its web costs. This might be true, but the record for transparency there on such issues is not reassuring. Having hit a point where it could make significant money for its owner, I see no reason what its owner would want to turn it over to anyone for anything, short of a quite profitable-to-him buyout.

regards

david

seffrican
May 6th, 2013, 02:46 AM
SNIP. I'd rather hear KCat (and others) out than see her run off. And I'd rather not see anyone bullied into silence by the sheer weight of ridiculing verbiage.

Hi,

Of note, Kcat was not run off. KCat, upon realizing people actually could disagree with her here and that she could not just erase their posts, engaged in Tactic 27, "The passive aggressive flourish".

regards

david

Actually, David, at some point there is a transition from picking people's points apart, into bullying. I probably would actually find myself in disagreement with KCat's position, and partly in agreement with yours, but the fog of verbiage and the jeering have obscured both positions and almost certainly made a travesty of both.

At some point, we must all have found ourself here because of a mutual shared interest in fountain pens, even Wim, even you. That seems strange to contemplate after reading these threads.

david i
May 6th, 2013, 02:53 AM
SNIP. I'd rather hear KCat (and others) out than see her run off. And I'd rather not see anyone bullied into silence by the sheer weight of ridiculing verbiage.

Hi,

Of note, Kcat was not run off. KCat, upon realizing people actually could disagree with her here and that she could not just erase their posts, engaged in Tactic 27, "The passive aggressive flourish".

regards

david

Actually, David, at some point there is a transition from picking people's points apart, into bullying. I probably would actually find myself in disagreement with KCat's position, and partly in agreement with yours, but the fog of verbiage and the jeering have obscured both positions and almost certainly made a travesty of both.

At some point, we must all have found ourself here because of a mutual shared interest in fountain pens, even Wim, even you. That seems strange to contemplate after reading these threads.

Nah...

Kcat applied Ad Hom insult to the mix and simply didn't like being called out on it. Shall I post her quotes? The irony of course being that she resents being called out for verbiage she used that is far harsher than what she typically erases on her own board. Though maybe I'm wrong. She might well have been trying to bully (what with being used to doing that as an FPN Admin) and didn't enjoy not being able to engage that. Just sayin...

Let us not confuse "Philosophy of Board Chat" with "Individual Behavior". The prior is a Straw Man regarding the interaction of the individual cited.

regards

david

seffrican
May 6th, 2013, 03:39 AM
Let us not confuse "Philosophy of Board Chat" with "Individual Behavior". The prior is a Straw Man regarding the interaction of the individual cited.

A very nice autoexemplar of the genre.

david i
May 6th, 2013, 05:09 AM
Let us not confuse "Philosophy of Board Chat" with "Individual Behavior". The prior is a Straw Man regarding the interaction of the individual cited.

A very nice autoexemplar of the genre.

Haven't seen that since Gödel, Escher, Bach

hehehehe :bump2:

JustinJ
May 6th, 2013, 01:29 PM
Hi Manny,

I noticed your last post at FPN. A very interesting Salvo. We will see how long it stays up.

I am not religious but respect peoples' choice to be religious or non-religious. I had a post deleted of mine on FPN because I mentioned I was not religious. It was a question asked about the Masons and memberships.

I have no problem with what you wrote. I value freedom of speech and can moderate others myself by not reading their posts, not that your posts bothers me. The atmosphere in this forum is much more congenial from what I've read. It is not so sterile in its approach.

Now, if I could just find my Waverly nib, all would be good.

http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m496/gclef1114/Tutuguans/0505132338-1_zpsca0e4256.jpg

2450

jbb
May 6th, 2013, 01:40 PM
Hi Manny,

I noticed your last post at FPN. A very interesting Salvo. We will see how long it stays up.

I am not religious but respect peoples' choice to be religious or non-religious. I had a post deleted of mine on FPN because I mentioned I was not religious. It was a question asked about the Masons and memberships.

I have no problem with what you wrote. I value freedom of speech and can moderate others myself by not reading their posts, not that your posts bothers me. The atmosphere in this forum is much more congenial from what I've read. It is not so sterile in its approach.

Now, if I could just find my Waverly nib, all would be good.

Can you put up a link to that post? Thanks.

Manny
May 6th, 2013, 02:19 PM
http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/241256-the-other-side/?p=2668852

KrazyIvan
May 6th, 2013, 04:18 PM
http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/241256-the-other-side/?p=2668852

:amen::hug:

Sailor Kenshin
May 6th, 2013, 05:23 PM
http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/241256-the-other-side/?p=2668852

Beautiful!

klpeabody
May 6th, 2013, 06:18 PM
http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/241256-the-other-side/?p=2668852

Thank you, Manny!

Jon Szanto
May 6th, 2013, 06:41 PM
I didn't post anything when it dawned on me. That happened sometime in the last couple of days. All I know is that I finally realized who Manny is, and to Manny, I am so happy to once again see your beautiful penmanship! :)

Manny
May 7th, 2013, 12:13 AM
I didn't post anything when it dawned on me. That happened sometime in the last couple of days. All I know is that I finally realized who Manny is, and to Manny, I am so happy to once again see your beautiful penmanship! :)

http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m496/gclef1114/Tutuguans/0507130211-1_zpsaf11ffec.jpg

Jon Szanto
May 7th, 2013, 12:22 AM
My friend, I had no idea about the marriage. Heartiest of congratulations, and I hope you have both made a good choice. I know I did, as we approach the 30 year mark... <3

Sailor Kenshin
May 7th, 2013, 04:54 AM
I didn't post anything when it dawned on me. That happened sometime in the last couple of days. All I know is that I finally realized who Manny is, and to Manny, I am so happy to once again see your beautiful penmanship! :)

http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m496/gclef1114/Tutuguans/0507130211-1_zpsaf11ffec.jpg

Glad to see you here, congratulations, and one of these days I will beg you to reveal your photography secrets. ^^

Manny
May 7th, 2013, 06:40 AM
...reveal your photography secrets. ^^

http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m496/gclef1114/Tutuguans/0507130837-1_zpsf7293add.jpg

Barbara
May 7th, 2013, 12:02 PM
This is better than daytime soaps. Drama and gossip without leaving comfort of my home. :)

Barbara
May 7th, 2013, 12:58 PM
Hi Manny,

I noticed your last post at FPN. A very interesting Salvo. We will see how long it stays up.

I am not religious but respect peoples' choice to be religious or non-religious. I had a post deleted of mine on FPN because I mentioned I was not religious. It was a question asked about the Masons and memberships.

I have no problem with what you wrote. I value freedom of speech and can moderate others myself by not reading their posts, not that your posts bothers me. The atmosphere in this forum is much more congenial from what I've read. It is not so sterile in its approach.

Now, if I could just find my Waverly nib, all would be good.

http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m496/gclef1114/Tutuguans/0505132338-1_zpsca0e4256.jpg

Nice handwriting. :)

jor412
May 7th, 2013, 06:18 PM
This is better than daytime soaps. Drama and gossip without leaving comfort of my home. :)

And this is the spinoff of the original series :p Then again watching TV, we don't really have to leave our homes.