What exactly is meant by "saturation"

[Wuddus]

I realise the answer may be blindingly obvious to some, but I am unclear what is actually meant by the term saturated inks. I have heard it used mainly in terms of being problematic for cleaning, but am unsure if it relates to how vivid a colour is, how dark, or whether it is in terms of other properties like viscosity. Is saturation something that is immediately recognisable in an ink on first use, or is it only determined as a result of clogging or staining issues that arise from using it?

[suzy01]

I realise the answer may be blindingly obvious to some, but I am unclear what is actually meant by the term saturated inks. I have heard it used mainly in terms of being problematic for cleaning, but am unsure if it relates to how vivid a colour is, how dark, or whether it is in terms of other properties like viscosity. Is saturation something that is immediately recognisable in an ink on first use, or is it only determined as a result of clogging or staining issues that arise from using it?I'd like to know too.

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[Jon Szanto]

The vast majority of fountain pen inks are either dye-based or pigment-based. The first is the use of chemicals for the color components, the second the use of materials (non-liquid). AFAIK, both forms of ink can be related to the term saturated.

And, really, it is quite simple: imagine making chocolate milk for yourself from a powdered mix. If you put a teaspoon or two in a glass of milk, that would make a fairly normal batch. If you were to put two cups of mix and top it off with milk, that would make for one very saturated glass of chocolate milk. You'd be able to decant that into a pitcher and dilute it (with milk) and still have a very fine beverage.

Think of how intensely chocolate that 2nd glass is. That is ink. People like really dark, intense colors, and this is often created by making the ink more saturated. It also, by virtue of having a lower ratio of basic liquids (i.e. water) in the mix, carries other issues with it. Inks like this will often have a tendancy to take a long time to dry, with some not drying well at all. Because of the higher component/water ratio, they can tend to clog pens. Even if the rest of the behavior is perfectly fine, when you go to flush out your pen it can take markedly longer because the amount of ink left in the pen is still saturated, and it will take many flushes to dilute and wash out every last bit.

That is most of the info, I think. Just think highly concentrated. There are definitely pluses and minuses to inks in this category.

[Wuddus]

Thanks, Jon. That's pretty much what I was after, whether it was just intensity of colour, or other physical aspects. I understood the true definition but wasn't sure how it was applied in this contexet - and it sounds like it's all of the above, dependent on the individual formulation. So the viscosity, flow, colour intensity, drying time, persistance/water resistance/adhesion could all be affected subject to what the ink is saturated with, and the properties of that particular ingredient... makes sense, but means I still have much to learn. :D

Thanks again.

[Jon Szanto]

Thanks, Jon. That's pretty much what I was after...

You might want to look through the Ink sub-forum for reviews of inks by Chrissy. She does great reviews, very thorough, and you'll see her note the saturation of the inks in question with ample visual cues. Good way to get a handle on the subject, as well as how some of the manufacturers tend to be more saturated or not.

[Wuddus]

Chrissy's reviews are excellent. I now seek out her reviews when considering a new ink. I do read others, but always try to make sure hers is one that I read (and I've never failed to find one from her on an ink I've been considering).

I've never studied them from that perspective though, and am usually just viewing on my phone, which is probably not the best way. I'll revisit some of her reviews from the laptop and see if I can identify the traits she's referring to. However, I am pretty much sticking to Diamine inks, as I like both their performance and price (in the UK). I understand these are widely accepted as "safe" inks, and typically aren't as problematic as other brands might be. Are there any Diamine inks which I should read the reviews of which are deemed highly saturated, so I can get a contrast with others?

[Paddler]

Color saturation is a measure of the vividness or depth of the ink (or paint) color. For example, if you took a sample of red paint and mixed some white with it, the mixture would be pink, a relatively unsaturated red.

Thinking physical chemistry, saturation is a measure of how much solute is in a given amount of solvent. If you dissolve salt in a given amount of water and keep adding salt until no more will dissolve, the solution is 100% saturated. Honey is a mixture of sugars (mostly) and water. It is super-saturated. Let it stand long enough at room temperature and the sugar will begin to crystallize out.

[Jon Szanto]

However, I am pretty much sticking to Diamine inks, as I like both their performance and price (in the UK). I understand these are widely accepted as "safe" inks, and typically aren't as problematic as other brands might be. Are there any Diamine inks which I should read the reviews of which are deemed highly saturated, so I can get a contrast with others?

I can only say one basic thing: the wider a brand's line of inks grows, the more differentiation there is in the individual inks. As such, Diamine has a very large number of inks and while I'd be comfortable in saying that the majority (or vast majority) are safe and easy to use, there are a few that either have 'interesting properties' or are simply a more saturated color. I *can* say that I don't think any will explicitly harm a pen. Obviously, their "Shimmertastic" line, which contains glittery particles, needs special attention, but that is a very specific sub-line of their inks.

Even when an ink is perfectly... fine, you can end up having particular issues. It is well known that some orange/red-orange inks have unique properties due to the red dye components. When you're on your laptop (for full effect), do a Google search on "ancient copper crud", restrict the results to "images" and take a look. Nib creep at it's finest!!

[Chrissy]

I'm blushing guys, :redface: but thank you for your kind comments. :)

I remember a long time ago when there were some ink powder samples available over on the other place. For anyone who also posts over there they were called SuSeMa inks (from a Super Secret maker) I can't remember but think it might have turned out to be Robert Oster.(That could be completely wrong....) Edited: It was Blackstone (thanks Runnin_Ute)

The idea was to take a sachet of this powder and mix it with water to get your ink. :) Seems reasonable bearing in mind that inks are mostly water anyway. Actually, it would be great if all inks could be bought as a sachet of powder, that you made up yourself into ink. :)

Anyway, sorry I digress. :( There was a recommended amount of water on the sachet, but some users decided to make their ink more saturated by adding less than the recommended amount of water. The original recommendation made what was called "regular" fountain pen ink. If you added less water, the ink was more saturated, wetter, showed-through more, etc. etc. But basically, the amount of ingredients to water directly affected the saturation of the ink.

People adjust saturation for themselves by adding water to highly saturated inks. I've also successfully achieved the opposite, by leaving unsaturated inks uncapped in their bottles, so that they become more saturated. I put a small piece of kitchen paper over the opening and just leave them until I see the ink level has gone down. This was very successful with a part bottle of Parker Quink that wasn't saturated enough for me. Now it is. :)

Saturation also means "transparency" of colour. Some dyes make inks that are more transparent than others. You can easily see this if you paint wash with inks. When I'm restoring ceramics I sometimes need a more saturated white to ensure I completely cover what's underneath. Artists do the same. Titanium Dioxide White pigment is very saturated white while Zinc White is more transparent. That's why sunscreen contains Titanium Dioxide. It's such a densely saturated pigment that it won't even let sun's rays through onto your skin. :)

[Chrissy]

Chrissy's reviews are excellent. I now seek out her reviews when considering a new ink. I do read others, but always try to make sure hers is one that I read (and I've never failed to find one from her on an ink I've been considering).

I've never studied them from that perspective though, and am usually just viewing on my phone, which is probably not the best way. I'll revisit some of her reviews from the laptop and see if I can identify the traits she's referring to. However, I am pretty much sticking to Diamine inks, as I like both their performance and price (in the UK). I understand these are widely accepted as "safe" inks, and typically aren't as problematic as other brands might be. Are there any Diamine inks which I should read the reviews of which are deemed highly saturated, so I can get a contrast with others?

Diamine Sargasso Sea and Majestic Blue spring instantly to mind as really saturated inks. Harder to wash off of hands, and out of pens, but don't feather on cheap papers, because they are so saturated.

[Wuddus]

Transparency! Of course! That makes it much easier to get my head around determining saturation.

Well it seems that I might just favour saturated inks without realising it. I haven't tried many inks yet, but Diamine's Grape and Chocolate Brown are two of my favourites. Sargasso Sea is already on the radar, and has been for a while. It will be at the top of the list the next time I place an ink order.

I love the idea of dehydrating an ink to make it richer too. I think Twilight might benefit a little from that, although just leaving in the pen a while seem to improve it somewhat. I do know what you mean about Quink. My Vector calligraphy set came with some cartridges included, and the first time I put Washable Blue on the page, I though someone had washed it already... not a lot of substance to it. I don't think all inks need to be that way though, Sherwood Green wouldn't fall under my new understanding of saturated, but it doesn't need to be somehow.

This has been most helpful. Thanks all.

[welch]

Well explained, Jon and Chrissy!

For some (ancient) history, check Ebay for advertisements of Parker's Superchrome / Parker 51 Ink. In the early advertisements, from 1945 or '46, Parker claims that Superchrome has three-to-ten times more dye than any other ink. Superchrome might have been the earliest saturated ink...but do NOT rush out to try some. Parker warned not to use it in anything but a P-51 -- one of the toughest pens of all time. By 1955 or '56, Parker withdrew Superchrome/P-51 Ink as prolonged use seemed to harm even the mighty 51. (Risk might have come from something other than the "dye load". I think Richard Binder suggests the problem might have been from some sort of alcohol in Superchrome.)

[Runnin_Ute]

The powdered inks Chrissy mentions were inks that were being tested for the company we now know as Blackstone. None of them went into production. If I recall the water amounts correctly it was a sachet (4 grams) to 50-60 ml for "normal", 30 ml water for "wet" and 80-90 ml water for "dry". My mixed were as follows: black 30 ml; red 50 ml; green 62.5 ml; blue 90 ml.

The blue ultimately got dumped as my mix w as to dry for my taste. I still have the red and green and perhaps a little black. I don't know all the reasons it didn't work, but there were issues with at least some. I never had any though. I don't currently have any of them in a pen, but have run them even in vintage Esterbrooks.

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[Chrissy]

The powdered inks Chrissy mentions were inks that were being tested for the company we now know as Blackstone. None of them went into production. If I recall the water amounts correctly it was a sachet (4 grams) to 50-60 ml for "normal", 30 ml water for "wet" and 80-90 ml water for "dry". My mixed were as follows: black 30 ml; red 50 ml; green 62.5 ml; blue 90 ml.

The blue ultimately got dumped as my mix w as to dry for my taste. I still have the red and green and perhaps a little black. I don't know all the reasons it didn't work, but there were issues with at least some. I never had any though. I don't currently have any of them in a pen, but have run them even in vintage Esterbrooks.

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Thanks for that. My memory only took in the Australian part. I've still go my unopened blue sachet I think. My red almost fills a standard J.Herbin bottle, and I used my green and black to experiment with.:)

[Runnin_Ute]

I mixed the red in a 50 ml Levenger bottle, green in a 62.5 ml Pelikan 4001 bottle and the others in round 90 ml bottles with metal lids I found at Hobby Lobby. The black evaporated to powder. I did add water to reconstitute but haven't used it in a while. I did put it in a better bottle as well.

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[calamus]

In graphic art circles, saturation refers to the intensity of pure color. In photography, people used to talk about how highly saturated the palette of the old Kodachrome film was — some people called them "clown colors." Technicolor-process movies had highly saturated colors, too. Very bright, very vivid. When it comes to inks, it may or may not be directly related to the amount of dye or pigment in an ink. In general, the most highly saturated colors are produced by pigment-based inks, which I personally avoid because of so many reports of pens getting clogged by them. (Tangential aside: I bought some Noodlers once and thought I'd bought a jar of paint. I tossed it out, although I should have kept it for my dip pens. Actually, I didn't like the color — it was supposed to be a turquoise, but it was too green for my taste.)

In chemistry, saturation refers to how much solute can dissolve in a solution, but in general that's not what people mean when they talk about an ink being highly saturated. Usually they're talking about the color.

[Jon Szanto]

In chemistry, saturation refers to how much solute can dissolve in a solution, but in general that's not what people mean when they talk about an ink being highly saturated. Usually they're talking about the color.

I'm not certain I agree with this. If you read a majority of reviews done by pen users of saturated inks, it is primarily that usage that comes through. Yes, the visual element is shown in darker, concentrated colors, but the effects of higher solutes are commonly noted, including prolonged drying times, more arduous flushing/cleaning ritual and potential for flow issues.

[calamus]

In chemistry, saturation refers to how much solute can dissolve in a solution, but in general that's not what people mean when they talk about an ink being highly saturated. Usually they're talking about the color.

I'm not certain I agree with this. If you read a majority of reviews done by pen users of saturated inks, it is primarily that usage that comes through. Yes, the visual element is shown in darker, concentrated colors, but the effects of higher solutes are commonly noted, including prolonged drying times, more arduous flushing/cleaning ritual and potential for flow issues.

People use both meanings, particularly depending on their background and how they approach the subject. I think (and this is just my opinion) more people relate to different inks by color rather than their surface tension or other physical properties, even though they look at those too. The main reason I hold that it refers to color, however, is that the inks generally agreed to exhibit the most saturation are pigment-based, and those are suspensions and not solutions. I'm not a chemist and I don't play one on television, but I did take chemistry in high school and college, and aced it. I'm pretty certain that saturation applies to solutions but not not suspensions. Dye-based inks are solutions, pigment-based ones aren't, and hence wouldn't be considered saturated at all by that criterion.

[Jon Szanto]

People use both meanings, particularly depending on their background and how they approach the subject. I think (and this is just my opinion) more people relate to different inks by color rather than their surface tension or other physical properties, even though they look at those too. The main reason I hold that it refers to color, however, is that the inks generally agreed to exhibit the most saturation are pigment-based, and those are suspensions and not solutions. Even the so-
called nano-suspensions are suspensions. Dye-based inks are solutions.

I'd never quibble about the correct usage of the term in terms of it's relation to the actual physical makeup of the liquid itself; in this, I bow to any deeper understanding of the chemistry behind the discussion. I guess our opinions and observations of how the term is used in the pen/ink community is at variance, and not a big issue.

[calamus]

People use both meanings, particularly depending on their background and how they approach the subject. I think (and this is just my opinion) more people relate to different inks by color rather than their surface tension or other physical properties, even though they look at those too. The main reason I hold that it refers to color, however, is that the inks generally agreed to exhibit the most saturation are pigment-based, and those are suspensions and not solutions. Even the so-
called nano-suspensions are suspensions. Dye-based inks are solutions.

I'd never quibble about the correct usage of the term in terms of it's relation to the actual physical makeup of the liquid itself; in this, I bow to any deeper understanding of the chemistry behind the discussion. I guess our opinions and observations of how the term is used in the pen/ink community is at variance, and not a big issue.

I'm sure you're right. Just looking at the answers on this thread, you can see people taking both approaches. I relate to saturation primarily from my background in photography and graphics, and have always assumed that that's what most people meant when they discussed it. The responses on this thread at variance with that have been a bit of an eye-opener for me.

[Jon Szanto]

I'm sure you're right. Just looking at the answers on this thread, you can see people taking both approaches. I relate to saturation primarily from my background in photography and graphics, and have always assumed that that's what most people meant when they discussed it. The responses on this thread at variance with that have been a bit of an eye-opener for me.

Yeah, humans aren't always spot-on. :D When I want to gnash my teeth and get down into an angry confrontation, it's usually over the misuse of the term "grail". 😠

[calamus]

I still cringe when people use "literally" to mean "figuratively," which according to the online Merriam-Webster's editor is a perfectly acceptable usage, which claim is invariably followed by an assertion that people need to appreciate that language is a living thing and keeps changing or else they're ossified, pedantic fuddy-duddys.