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View Full Version : Parker that looks like a 51?



ToddPeperkorn
May 8th, 2013, 05:48 PM
I have a Parker I got off of eBay. It looks like a 51 Aerometric, but is not labeled such. It is green barreled, and on the outside of the cap has the word Corona on it. Any ideas?

jar
May 8th, 2013, 06:20 PM
Picture would help but may not be a Parker.

Laura N
May 8th, 2013, 06:41 PM
I agree on the picture.

You could also check parkercollector.com, which has information about all the models, and an identification guide here (http://parkercollector.com/apis.html).

ToddPeperkorn
May 9th, 2013, 11:22 AM
2545
2546
2547
2548
2549

KrazyIvan
May 9th, 2013, 11:23 AM
It looks like my Parker 21.

pajaro
May 9th, 2013, 12:12 PM
I think it's a 21 Super. Notice the thick clutch ring on the section, typical of a 21. "Corona" might be a personalization. It is interesting, and the pen looks great.

carlc
May 9th, 2013, 01:20 PM
I agree probably a 21.

Best way to tell would be to take the hood off and look at the nib (straight nib as opposed to a tubular nib and no collector) - but if it is a 21 you don't want to do that as they can be prone to cracking.

21's are also lighter than 51's.

carl

whych
May 9th, 2013, 01:53 PM
Corona used to make cigars I think. I have a Corona promotional pen and pencil set by Sheaffer.

carlc
May 9th, 2013, 02:05 PM
Corona was a fizzy drink manufacturer in the UK (and yes there was the cigar company too) but promotional pens tend to be rather more brazen about it - that looks a bit too restrained.

ToddPeperkorn
May 9th, 2013, 05:02 PM
Are Parker 21 doesn't have any markings that say it is a 21? Other than under the nib, that is.

It writes pretty well, actually. I have it with some Platinum Blue-Black right now and it seems to like it.

P

nxn96
May 9th, 2013, 07:35 PM
The cap looks to be a Parker 51, but I think the rest of the pen is a Parker 21. Hard to say, based on the photos, but I think it could be the earlier series 21 as opposed to the later series Super 21. The "Press Three Times" suggests a 21, as the 51 was a "Press 6 times" and later "Press 4 Times". Based on the photo of the section/nib resting against the cap, it looks to be the wider 21 nib, and not the narrower (51-ish) Super 21 nib.

The "Corona" on the base of the cap? Can't say. Seems too subtle to be advertising, but it could be.

Hope this helps. Nice pen.

whych
May 9th, 2013, 10:41 PM
@caric
Thanks for the history. Corona softdrinks were before I came here - I only knew the cigars.

The cap may not be a 21 cap then, but the rest of the pen is.

carlc
May 10th, 2013, 12:32 AM
The cap looks to be a Parker 51, but I think the rest of the pen is a Parker 21. Hard to say, based on the photos, but I think it could be the earlier series 21 as opposed to the later series Super 21. The "Press Three Times" suggests a 21, as the 51 was a "Press 6 times" and later "Press 4 Times". Based on the photo of the section/nib resting against the cap, it looks to be the wider 21 nib, and not the narrower (51-ish) Super 21 nib.

The "Corona" on the base of the cap? Can't say. Seems too subtle to be advertising, but it could be.

Hope this helps. Nice pen.

I thought P51's were thicker pens? Thus wouldn't a P51 cap be very loose? Todpeperkorn - is that the case or is it a snug fit?

ETA: actually I think I'm getting mixed up with the 17 - anyone care to comment on barrel widths (I don't have a 21 only 51's and 17's).

carlc
May 10th, 2013, 12:36 AM
@caric
Thanks for the history. Corona softdrinks were before I came here - I only knew the cigars.



Sorry - I was being silly - it's a Janesville pen so Corona the fizzy drink (to use a British colloquialism Corona 'Pop') isn't likely even if it were an advertising pen.

carlc

whych
May 10th, 2013, 01:05 AM
caric
The 21 was never made in UK so it could have been a promotional pen. The 21 was the entry level Parker for a long time, so would have been a natural choice.

The 51 cap will fit the 21. The arrow clip on the 21 only came in with the 21 Super and the nib is not a super 21 nib.

I'm not really into collecting Parkers, but like most have dabbled a it in them because they are so plentiful in UK.

Whatever the reason for the cap mismatch, they are nice pens (21's) and that's all that counts if you want a good pen to carry around and use.

carlc
May 10th, 2013, 01:53 AM
caric
The 21 was never made in UK so it could have been a promotional pen. The 21 was the entry level Parker for a long time, so would have been a natural choice.

The 51 cap will fit the 21. The arrow clip on the 21 only came in with the 21 Super and the nib is not a super 21 nib.

I'm not really into collecting Parkers, but like most have dabbled a it in them because they are so plentiful in UK.

Whatever the reason for the cap mismatch, they are nice pens (21's) and that's all that counts if you want a good pen to carry around and use.

Hi Whych

I know a good pen is a good pen but it's fun to play 'guess the pen' and it also helps build the FPG board 'knowledge' (content) - and mine to be honest.

You're right they weren't made in the UK (thank you for that - I didn't know) - but don't you think the P17 would have been a more likely choice for a UK firm?

The Arrow clip did come in with the Super (and apparently the caps from the 51 and the 21 Super are interchangeable) but according to Richard Binder's site the final version of the 21 (1960s) also had the arrow clip.

By the way I don't collect either (I'm an accumulator as opposed to a collector) and have never even seen a 21 in real life - I've always been put off by the spontaneous cracking. So the next question is - why don't the Parker 17 (and apparently the 21 Special) have the same reputation for cracking?

ToddPeperkorn: whatever it is I agree with Whych - enjoy your pen.

carl

seffrican
May 10th, 2013, 02:35 AM
It looks like my Parker 21.

The U-shaped press bar over the sac definitely says Parker 21 and not 51.

As far as the rest of the speculations in the thread, keep it coming, I'm curious too.

carlc
May 10th, 2013, 03:08 AM
It looks like my Parker 21.

The U-shaped press bar over the sac definitely says Parker 21 and not 51.

As far as the rest of the speculations in the thread, keep it coming, I'm curious too.

Unless it's a 51 Special or a later 51 Demi - but I believe they both usually have a "51" imprint on the filler and Demis are smaller than the standard 51 and the 21.

whych
May 10th, 2013, 03:14 AM
carlc
The 17 only came out in 62.

The Super 21 gets hairline cracks in the section and you wonder wh your fingers get full of ink. The 17 used a different plastic.

Best place to find parker pens and a bit of history is:
http://parkercollector.com/

I don't think Parker ever did a really cheap 'School' pen like Sheaffer did. The old Sheaffer school pens were really well made and easy to clean. They were more reliable than the upmarket P45. I changed to using a Sheaffer school pen at university and never had a problem with it. The Parker 45 would leak into the cap in summer and would dry out and hav problems starting. Never had these problems with the Sheaffer.
Only thing with Sheaffers is their clips can wreak havoc on shirt pockets.

I'll see if I can dig out a P21 plain and super and post some pics.

carlc
May 10th, 2013, 03:37 AM
Thanks Whych

I had read that the 17, 21 and 61 were all made from injection moulded polystyrene hence my question.

Pics would be great!

carlc
May 10th, 2013, 04:00 AM
Thanks Whych

I had read that the 17, 21 and 61 were all made from injection moulded polystyrene hence my question.

Pics would be great!

Actually the 17 and the 61 came out after the 21.

I wonder if they had improved their processes by then?

It would be interesting to know what date ranges of the 21 crack (or if it's all of them).

I believe all the models (17,21 and 61) are all prone to shrinking.

carlc
May 10th, 2013, 04:50 AM
carlc


I don't think Parker ever did a really cheap 'School' pen like Sheaffer did.


I can't find an original price point for this all plastic 45 but I remembered seeing it when looking for a Senior English Duofold: http://www.writetime.co.uk/nothingover/nothingover.htm.

whych
May 10th, 2013, 05:09 AM
You mean the blue pen that is labelled as 'Parker 45'?
That is actually called a duofold! (I'll try and find a box and packaging for it)

In 62 the P45 was $5, five times more than the Sheaffer School pen. (OK, so it had a gold nib)
I think they only brought the steel nib versions out later than that.

carlc
May 10th, 2013, 05:23 AM
Oh - Parkercollector.com also notes an all plastic school grade 45 CT - and it's labelled as a 'school' pen on the barrel inscription (he notes it was also known as the 'Arrow'). Though the pen on 'write time' doesn't have a metal ring at the end of the section.

The price difference you note is really significant!

Thanks Whych - this is fascinating.

ardgedee
May 10th, 2013, 05:40 AM
It looks like my Parker 21.

It's also identical to my Parker 21, except for the cap. My 21 (and, it seems, all the 21s shown on the Parker Collector (http://parkercollector.com/parker21.html) site) have metal caps with thin walls, and they look much closer to lying flush with the barrel when closed. The metal cap on my 21 is thin enough to flex slightly when squeezed hard. I wonder if the cap in the photos is from a different pen, since it looks thicker and heavier.

whych
May 10th, 2013, 07:56 AM
Oh - Parkercollector.com also notes an all plastic school grade 45 CT - and it's labelled as a 'school' pen on the barrel inscription (he notes it was also known as the 'Arrow'). Though the pen on 'write time' doesn't have a metal ring at the end of the section.

The price difference you note is really significant!

Thanks Whych - this is fascinating.
The seller on write time is taking a chance. You can get a top range 45 for less than that.
I think I paid around 5 GBP for mine, new and boxed. The guy had relisted it a couple of times.

carlc
May 10th, 2013, 08:04 AM
No offence but I wasn't intending on buying it - I don't like 45s (don't know why - it's one of those irrational things).

KrazyIvan
May 10th, 2013, 08:30 AM
My 21 has the arrow clip and it says "Parker 21 Parker". The "21" is in a larger font than the Parker name. Something like this:
PARKER 21 PARKER

On the back side of the cap I have "Made in the USA" and the Parker arrow/elipse symbol above that.

I had two of them but gave the other away. Both have "Parker 21" on the press bar assembly. I notice one must be newer than the other because the feed, as viewed from the back side of the nib looks different on each one. The one I think is older looks to be ebonite. It looks smaller than the one I think is newer. On the newer one, the feed looks bigger and seems to be plastic.

Laura N
May 10th, 2013, 11:09 AM
...The Arrow clip did come in with the Super (and apparently the caps from the 51 and the 21 Super are interchangeable) but according to Richard Binder's site the final version of the 21 (1960s) also had the arrow clip....

This is correct. I have a late version 21. Its cap (i) is the same size as a 51 cap, (ii) sports an arrow clip identical to that on the 45 and (iii) has a tassie without a jewel on top. I would say the late 21 cap incorporates design features of the 45 cap, though it's a different size. Mine does have a large "21" at the bottom of the cap, along with Made in USA, the Parker logo and the word Parker.

pajaro
May 10th, 2013, 12:15 PM
Notice that the filler mentions Superchrome ink. Probably an earlier 21. In any case, with the thick clutch ring, this is some variety of Parker 21.

whych
May 10th, 2013, 04:01 PM
carlc
Not a problem - I used a P45 for a good few years, but, though a nice writer, it's not my fovourite either.

The P21's with the Parker 21 on the cap are pretty scarce in UK. I may have the matching ballpoint for the pen.
The earlier bar clip versions only identify the model on the filler and not the cap.
The OP's body and nib is definitely a P21, just the cap is confusing. It could be the original cap was lost or put on a different pen and the cap he has fits and it's better to have apen with a cap than without. ;)
I think the P45 cap may just fit the later models, not perfectly, but it fits.
Where are all the seasoned Parker collectors when you want them?

carlc
May 10th, 2013, 05:37 PM
Where are all the seasoned Parker collectors when you want them?

Hi Whych - sorry been out seeing the new Star Trek film and only just saw your reply.

Agreed - I really want to know about the cracking issue - I've avoided 21s because of it.

So we reckon the cap is from a 51?

Whatever way it flies I've learnt some things and that can't be bad! I'm just glad it didn't get left at - "who cares what it is - it writes well and that's all that matters".

carl

nxn96
May 10th, 2013, 08:04 PM
Understand that I'm not saying I'm an "expert" here, but for what it's worth:

The caps are not wholly interchangeable, but I think a 51 cap will fit-albeit loosely- on a 21 barrel, but not the other way around. I think the 21 that was the subject of the original post is one of those situations.

While the original 21's had the hooded design of the 51, it was an altogether different nib and feed. The Super 21 was much closer to the 51 Special in design and construction. My understanding is that the Super 21 nib is essentially the 51 Special Octanium nib. The 51 barrel was Lucite, and, as I recall, the barrel and section/hood were machined out of a solid rod of Lucite, whereas the 21 was a molded plastic. The Super 21, in addition to having more of the characteristics of the 51 Special, also used a sturdier plastic, less prone to cracking than the earlier 21's.

Hope this helps.

Farmboy
May 10th, 2013, 10:45 PM
The cap has a long arrow clip and should have a plastic jewel and is a 1948-49 "51" cap. The pen is almost certainly a 21 of the first variety. An image of the nib would confirm this.

In my experience these tend to crack where as the 21 Super pens are quite stable. The 21 Super and the "51"Special both typically had the same Octanium nib.

Edited to add: the 21 is made from a different polymer than is the 61.

carlc
May 11th, 2013, 04:07 AM
The cap has a long arrow clip and should have a plastic jewel and is a 1948-49 "51" cap. The pen is almost certainly a 21 of the first variety. An image of the nib would confirm this.

In my experience these tend to crack where as the 21 Super pens are quite stable. The 21 Super and the "51"Special both typically had the same Octanium nib.

Edited to add: the 21 is made from a different polymer than is the 61.

Yay a full on Geek - what about the Parker 17?

pajaro
May 11th, 2013, 08:31 PM
Examine the clutch ring and compare that to any 21 and 51. The 51 clutch ring has a depression in the center. The 21 is raised as in the picture.

ToddPeperkorn
May 12th, 2013, 10:15 PM
You guys are awesome!

I'll try and do a bit more research, but the consensus seems to be an early Parker 21, with perhaps be odd sized cap. The nib sticks out ate a bit more than my '51, and it does have a hairline crack in the barrel. But it doesn't say "Parker 21" anywhere I can fine. I haven't taken apart the nib assembly, however.

Todd

ardgedee
May 13th, 2013, 04:20 AM
I'll try and do a bit more research, but the consensus seems to be an early Parker 21, with perhaps be odd sized cap. The nib sticks out ate a bit more than my '51, and it does have a hairline crack in the barrel. But it doesn't say "Parker 21" anywhere I can fine.

Is it possible the cap and the bladder guard are both cannibalized from other pens?

pajaro
May 13th, 2013, 02:07 PM
No offence but I wasn't intending on buying it - I don't like 45s (don't know why - it's one of those irrational things).

I am with you. I don't care for 45s, even though they have that great funky design spirit of the 1960s, they feel cheap. I have one to admire its style, but don't write with it.

nxn96
May 14th, 2013, 09:58 AM
No offence but I wasn't intending on buying it - I don't like 45s (don't know why - it's one of those irrational things).

I am with you. I don't care for 45s, even though they have that great funky design spirit of the 1960s, they feel cheap. I have one to admire its style, but don't write with it.

I realize this thread started with a question about a Parker 21 with a Parker 51 cap (I think that was the consensus view here); so I apologize if I'm hijacking this into another direction. However, a few thoughts about the lowly 45:

I have mixed feelings about the 45.

On one hand, it was a great concept and execution. My understanding is that Parker "acquired" the general form of the cartridge pen when they purchased Eversharp in the late 1950's, but (and corrections are welcome here) the converter was something Parker came up with before the pen actually hit the market in 1960.

The 45 was a hit from the get-go, and deservedly so. Although the pen was introduced as a lower-priced model for the "school market", the basic cartridge/converter concept over time found its way to the upper end of the Parker line such that it eventually became the standard. At the same time, realizing what they had in an era when the fountain pen market in the US was pretty much collapsing around them, Parker shrewdly developed a lot of higher end "skins" in order to move the 45 into the middle/upper middle offerings while still maintaining the 45 as the entry level Parker fp (at least until the Jotter and Vector fp's filled that space). In short, I would argue that the 45 helped keep Parker "alive" as a fountain pen manufacturer in a critical period for the company.

Much like Pajaro noted, the basic plastic barrel/stainless cap versions of the 45 can feel cheap in the hand. However, a vintage 45 Flighter fp is a well made, nicely balanced pen (the 45 Flighter bp is about as perfect as a ballpoint pen can get, but that's another topic). My "issue" with the 45 is what I find to be an indifferent nib. Some have been pretty good, but often I find them to be somewhat scratchy and difficult to "tame". I've got a couple of 45 fp's, but it's the nib that keeps them from being a regular user.

When looking at the 45, I think it's important to remember that the pen was not intended for the upper-end market; even though it might have ended up knocking at that door. If you look at it for what it was meant to do, it did that and more.

Again, sorry for taking this off topic.