Feathering and Bleed: Dip Pen vs Fountain Pen

[Wuddus]

There are many cheap leather bound journals on ebay and amazon, many of which clearly specify that they are not recommended for fountain pens due to the high absorbency of the paper. This got me wondering about dip pen ink. Dip pen ink is unsuitable for fountain pens due to the higher viscosity, so would these thicker inks overcome that problem, and sit rather than soak? What is the general consensus here, does dip pen ink behave better than fountain pen ink on feather prone paper, and can dip pens be used where fountain pens can't?

[penwash]

Speaking for myself, I like to write with fountain pen because I like fountain pens.

If a notebook or paper that I try causes bleeding and feathering, I replace that paper, not switching from fountain pen to something else. :)

Speaking of cheap, this notebook is $1.50 from Daiso and I can't make it feather no matter how wet a nib I tried on it:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4507/37171265833_80c280619a_c.jpg

Because Daiso's inventory changes all the time, I stocked up on this particular notebook.

[Wuddus]

Speaking for myself, I like to write with fountain pen because I like fountain pens.

If a notebook or paper that I try causes bleeding and feathering, I replace that paper, not switching from fountain pen to something else. :)

Speaking of cheap, this notebook is $1.50 from Daiso and I can't make it feather no matter how wet a nib I tried on it:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4507/37171265833_80c280619a_c.jpg

Because Daiso's inventory changes all the time, I stocked up on this particular notebook.

I like using fountain pens too, but I've been thinking in terms of potentially writing stuff that I might want to survive the test of time. I don't want to fill my fountain pens with archival inks - I'd rather use dip pens instead. The journal question of whether this would enable use of journals that would be unsuitable for fountain pens, was kind of a progression from there. It would be nice to be able to make use of some of those offerings.

[Paddler]

I use dip pens for the final (book) copy of stories in my journals. On the last page of the journal book, I try various nibs and inks to see how they behave. Then, before making a journal entry, I check the test sheet to see what is compatible with the paper. I use fountain pan inks with dip nibs all the time; I just have to choose wisely, based on tests I have made. For real permanence, I use India ink made with a sumi stick, distilled water, and a suzuri. That way, I can make the ink as thick as the paper wants. For footnotes and sidebars I use bulletproof Noodler's inks.

After working with many tens of types of dip pen nibs, I found that a little tweaking can make almost any nib perform like any other. You only need a few types if you are handy with small tools and abrasive Mylar.

[Chrissy]

I don't like using dip pens. After using fountain pens they just feel scratchy and are uncomfortable on upstrokes. :(

+1 for the reply by penwash. I just use different papers. :)

[Morgaine]

Before I joined fpg, I had a thing about notebooks, especially ones in the sales. I have a lot of notebooks, many from Wilkos or Home Bargains and they seem to be quite fountain pen friendly. I haven't tried yet with my glass dip pens though (I have J. Herbin inks bought in the set with the glass pens).

[penwash]

I like using fountain pens too, but I've been thinking in terms of potentially writing stuff that I might want to survive the test of time. I don't want to fill my fountain pens with archival inks - I'd rather use dip pens instead. The journal question of whether this would enable use of journals that would be unsuitable for fountain pens, was kind of a progression from there. It would be nice to be able to make use of some of those offerings.

Ah, I see. In this case where longevity is the desire, you still can use permanent document inks designed for fountain pens like deAtramentis Document series (Platinum permanent inks are also popular). These will work nicely in fountain pens. The only caveat is that you don't leave these ink to dry for years which would probably cause headache when cleaning it up.

Having said that, I probably have been on the other end of that exact scenario, I've cleaned up clogged up nibs/feeds/section from vintage pens that had iron-gall, and whatever they used back then, etc. So far the majority of 14K nibs survived those pretty much unscathed, but gold-plated steel nibs are mostly corroded and useless. The ebonite feeds and sections are also unharmed. The brunt of the damage was taken by the ink sac, which after several decades, hardened and needs to be replaced anyways.

[Wuddus]

I doubt gold nibs are going to come my way, as I only buy new, and won't pay more than £10 for a pen :D

Maybe some more background would be useful here...

The concept I have in mind, is a cumulation of several different things. I have thought about something that I might like to write (book format) which I would want to stand the test of time for reading by others several years from now. The main body of the text would be in one or two dark inks, but there would be sporadic use of colour, for illustrations, emphasis, or merely for decoration. As I would not be working on this book daily, or maybe not even weekly, dip pens might make more sense for the waterproof coloured inks at least. Otherwise, there would be a high probability of pens drying out before I want to use them again - or wasting ink by washing out the pen after every use. Some colours could easily be several months between uses.

I have never used a dip pen, and until I start using one, I won't know how tedious or enjoyable it is, and therefore whether I might want to do the whole work with one. I'm less averse to filling one pen with a waterproof ink for the main text, though there's still the possibility I may go weeks without working on it. However, if moving to dip pens means that I can use books/paper that I wouldn't be able to use with fountain pens, that would be an extra kick towards making it all a dip pen project. Time taken in writing for this project is not necessarily a concern.

If there's nothing to be gained in terms of versatility of media by doing it all with dip pens, then I know that sourcing the right book becomes more critical. However, I still have the issue of occasionally/rarely used waterproof inks and how best to apply them without screwing anything up. My pens might be cheap, but I still don't want to wreck them needlessly.

[Paddler]

I don't like using dip pens. After using fountain pens they just feel scratchy and are uncomfortable on upstrokes. :(


Smoothing techniques used on fountain pen nibs also work for dip pens. An untipped steel nib will wear sharp on the sides and front, causing the nib to dig in. A couple of gentle swipes on a fine stone can take these sharp edges off and put the nib in fettle once again.

[although]

I find that my dip pen adventures have created even more bleed and feather than my fountain pens, regardless of paper. Even though the india ink is rather viscous (I mean really, you can feel the writing on the page after it dries), the dip pen nibs lay down so very much ink that it will bleed and feather like crazy if the paper isn't relatively ink resistant. I find that I like heavier papers with the dip pen / india ink combo. But, frequently, I can only write on one side...

cheers!

[Wuddus]

I find that my dip pen adventures have created even more bleed and feather than my fountain pens, regardless of paper. Even though the india ink is rather viscous (I mean really, you can feel the writing on the page after it dries), the dip pen nibs lay down so very much ink that it will bleed and feather like crazy if the paper isn't relatively ink resistant. I find that I like heavier papers with the dip pen / india ink combo. But, frequently, I can only write on one side...

cheers!

Thank you for this.

It's not what I wanted to hear, but it's what I needed to know :D

[calamus]

Speaking for myself, I like to write with fountain pen because I like fountain pens.

If a notebook or paper that I try causes bleeding and feathering, I replace that paper, not switching from fountain pen to something else. :)

Speaking of cheap, this notebook is $1.50 from Daiso and I can't make it feather no matter how wet a nib I tried on it:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4507/37171265833_80c280619a_c.jpg

Because Daiso's inventory changes all the time, I stocked up on this particular notebook.

Is that a real, honest to goodness typewrite in the background of your photograph? A functional one that you use? I love typewriters!

[penwash]

Is that a real, honest to goodness typewrite in the background of your photograph? A functional one that you use? I love typewriters!

The typewriter is the cover of the notebook.

Though I love old typewriters too. :)

[AzJon]

If you want archival that will truly stand against the ravages of time, get real calf or lambskin vellum, a quill pen (with actual quill, not metal), and good, strong, iron-gall ink.

Until recently, all laws written in England were printed on vellum because, to date, there is no product with known longevity quite like true vellum.

It'll cost you a fortune, though.

[Wuddus]

The timescale I have in mind is only 50+ years, not 500+, so I'm not attempting to entertain future archaeologists. :) If a child born today, can read it in their adolescence, and then read it again when their kids reach their adolescence, job done. Hopefully it will see the light of day a few time in between too.

[calamus]

Cuneiform writing has been known to last for millenia, and only requires some clay and a stiff bit of reed. It's not even necessary to write in Sumerian, although you'll probably need to use a modified Nordic (as opposed to Elvish) runic-style alphabet because of the angular shapes.

[Wuddus]

Cuneiform writing has been known to last for millenia, and only requires some clay and a stiff bit of reed. It's not even necessary to write in Sumerian, although you'll probably need to use a modified Nordic (as opposed to Elvish) runic-style alphabet because of the angular shapes.

That was like a giraffe's fart...

... it went "whoosh" straight over my head...

:p

[azkid]

:D

I'd be all over that but not only am I fresh out of reeds but I find standard 96-page clay tablet bullet journals a bit heavy for my cheap desk to support. Papyrus it is then!

[Wuddus]

If I'm to start writing on clay tablets, I reckon feathering and bleedthrough would be the least of my problems...

[aaronp]

If I'm to start writing on clay tablets, I reckon feathering and bleedthrough would be the least of my problems...

If you write on clay tablets, pen would be the least of your problems ...

[RuiFromUK]

In the past I have practised copperplate calligraphy which requires paper that does not bleed or feather as a flexible nib is a must for that form of writing.

For my needs the type of paper is more important than the type of pen be it an old classic fountain pen like one from Mabie Todd's (Swan, Blackbird, Swallow, etc.) or a dip pen with a flexible nib.

[Wuddus]

I've now resigned myself to the fact that this project rules out the cheaper offerings available, and I need to pursue items which are specifically sold as suitable for fountain pens. I have seen some which look perfect, so I'll maybe grab one to try out later in the year.

Thanks to everyone for your input on this, it has been most helpful.

[AzJon]

I honestly have very good success with Rohrer & Klingner IG inks, both the Salix and Scabiosa, on cheap paper. If you are worried about nib tarnish, cruise fleaBay and pick up a fixer-upper Sheaffer with a gold nib. Most can be found in the $50 range and are absolutely solid pens. Even the repairs are usually cheap and easy (make sure its a lever or touchdown filler as the pump fillers are a pain in the rear). The R&K inks are very dry, so not the most pleasant writing experience, but nothing scratchier than, say, a graphite pencil.

Speaking of: Using a pencil is seriously the most efficient (and cheap) way to store information on paper for longevity. The graphite particles end up in the paper and aren't going to go anywhere unless someone erases them, of course.

[calamus]

As for paper, there are sketchbooks available (unruled, however) that use "acid-free" paper, which is considered archival. Some of them are too toothy for fountain pen use, but Strathmore makes one with a fine tooth and Bienfang with a pretty smooth "medium tooth," both of which work nicely with fountain pens. The paper is pretty heavy, so bleed-through is not an issue, and there's no discernable bleeding with most inks with the finer toothed papers. I've found both at Staples, a 5 1/2 x 8 Bienfang for $5.99 and a Strathmore the same size for $7.99. I believe they have about 100 sheets. They make them in larger sizes too. Cheap paper deteriorates badly, getting yellow and brittle after a few decades, especially the pulp papers.

[azkid]

Interesting to know. I have samples of both of those inks inbound.

I keep feeling like there must be some kind of paper that is tolerable and cheap out there.

I was at Staples office supply store today, thought of this thread, and picked up a 70pp, college ruled, Egyptian-made, poly cover notebook for $3 and tried my currently inked pens on it. Just for grins.

Inks behaved surprisingly well on this stuff. Now, it is no Clairefontaine, being lightweight paper and not as nice a finish but not bad.

In case it is of interest ...

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180523/a60650c864263104ba2014e7ff644537.jpg

Bleeding was intermittent with Lamy Blue-Black, tolerable with the rest. Diamine twilight writes dry for me; there wasn't enough ink to bleed :)

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180523/a0e2cf714814e89bb2d0d33e4dd7e81d.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180523/48235283689af33a7b6c477e8fa855af.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180523/ddda5bc8b705583f024cae62a4a0f254.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180523/5eb2e758630e6c9b770e5c31c1b4edce.jpg

Show through was worst with Sheaffer Black, Take-sumi, and Lamy Blue-Black. The others showed least with the others, but this is still thin paper so I'm not sure about using both sides.

To my great surprise and chagrin, Sheaffer Skripsert, which usually feathers more than a pillow fight in a henhouse on everything I have tried, was actually tolerable on this paper.

Anyway hope this is of interest.

[Wuddus]

I honestly have very good success with Rohrer & Klingner IG inks, both the Salix and Scabiosa, on cheap paper. If you are worried about nib tarnish, cruise fleaBay and pick up a fixer-upper Sheaffer with a gold nib. Most can be found in the $50 range and are absolutely solid pens. Even the repairs are usually cheap and easy (make sure its a lever or touchdown filler as the pump fillers are a pain in the rear). The R&K inks are very dry, so not the most pleasant writing experience, but nothing scratchier than, say, a graphite pencil.

Speaking of: Using a pencil is seriously the most efficient (and cheap) way to store information on paper for longevity. The graphite particles end up in the paper and aren't going to go anywhere unless someone erases them, of course.

Thanks for the input Jon, but unfortunately it's not applicable to me. I won't cough up more than £10 for a pen (I know this might sound illogical to many members here). This may change it time, but it is very unlikely.

[Wuddus]

As for paper, there are sketchbooks available (unruled, however) that use "acid-free" paper, which is considered archival. Some of them are too toothy for fountain pen use, but Strathmore makes one with a fine tooth and Bienfang with a pretty smooth "medium tooth," both of which work nicely with fountain pens. The paper is pretty heavy, so bleed-through is not an issue, and there's no discernable bleeding with most inks with the finer toothed papers. I've found both at Staples, a 5 1/2 x 8 Bienfang for $5.99 and a Strathmore the same size for $7.99. I believe they have about 100 sheets. They make them in larger sizes too. Cheap paper deteriorates badly, getting yellow and brittle after a few decades, especially the pulp papers.

A Goldline sketchbook arrived here yesterday, and I did a bit of testing on the back page. I was very surprised how well it behaved with my pens. I didn't know about the embrittling issues with time though, so thank you for that.

[AzJon]

I honestly have very good success with Rohrer & Klingner IG inks, both the Salix and Scabiosa, on cheap paper. If you are worried about nib tarnish, cruise fleaBay and pick up a fixer-upper Sheaffer with a gold nib. Most can be found in the $50 range and are absolutely solid pens. Even the repairs are usually cheap and easy (make sure its a lever or touchdown filler as the pump fillers are a pain in the rear). The R&K inks are very dry, so not the most pleasant writing experience, but nothing scratchier than, say, a graphite pencil.

Speaking of: Using a pencil is seriously the most efficient (and cheap) way to store information on paper for longevity. The graphite particles end up in the paper and aren't going to go anywhere unless someone erases them, of course.

Thanks for the input Jon, but unfortunately it's not applicable to me. I won't cough up more than £10 for a pen (I know this might sound illogical to many members here). This may change it time, but it is very unlikely.

Of course! No worries there. I posted before in another thread about IG inks being used with all sorts of nibs and the R&K inks didn't kill the steel nibs. I've also used DeAtrementis Document ink in a Jinhao 159 in the past for signing wedding certificates. Also works well, but the document ink tends to have some flow issues, or at least it did for me.

Edit: Oh, and one of my favorite Sheaffers was picked up for 13USD and a few extra bucks in repairs. You never know the deals you can find!

[Wuddus]

I'm gradually tiptoeing towards this project, and placed an order today for some inks. I've stuck with Diamine, but their drawing inks line. Ultramarine, English Red, Sepia, Black, Emerald Green, and Gold should be arriving next week. I'll be getting a cheap dip pen or two, and a sample journal to tryout soon. Supposedly, all the inks should all be waterproof. I'll not be too upset if the inks fade a little over the years.

[calamus]

I'm gradually tiptoeing towards this project, and placed an order today for some inks. I've stuck with Diamine, but their drawing inks line. Ultramarine, English Red, Sepia, Black, Emerald Green, and Gold should be arriving next week. I'll be getting a cheap dip pen or two, and a sample journal to tryout soon. Supposedly, all the inks should all be waterproof. I'll not be too upset if the inks fade a little over the years.

Any updates yet?

[Wuddus]

Yes, kind of, but not really :D

I got the six inks, an ultra cheapo dip pen set, and a cheap journal. I messed around briefly on a separate pad with the pen and ink, and it was a complete shambles. That's when I learned you need to clean new dip nibs before using then. I did make a brief entry in my "What I've learned so far" thread, but life hasn't given me another window to try again yet.

I want to try and get the hang of using the pen and inks before making any marks in the journal. It seems a waste to start scribbling nonsense in it, or starting the project properly before I've learned to handle the tools. I've also ordered a couple of comic g nibs from the far east, to modify a cheap Jinhao that I don't mind getting wrecked. The plan there being to have a backstop pen that I can use with permanent ink should dip pen become too tedious for the bulk of the text. I don't think flex writing will be a regular requirement for me, but this is a cheap way of my finding out what all the fuss is about.

[Paddler]

Some nibs will hold an ink puddle big enough to write a whole line between dips. Others will go half a page. If you make a simple feed and install it, you may write a whole page. Unless you have to dip every word or two, you get used to dipping and the tedium goes away; you just dip without thinking about it.

[azkid]

After writing three or so pages, I find dipping every few lines isn't as tedious as I anticipated. The pen is really quite fun to write with, actually.