Smooth inks

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Okay, brain is hyperdrive these days, so here's yet another interminably dull-witted question from a far-away noob.


What factor/s make an ink feel smooth?

Reason for asking is that I just flushed some ink from a pen with a Jowo broad cursive italic nib (courtesy of, in my opinion, one of the great nib grinders at FPNibs.com). That ink felt dry and seemed to give the nib a sense of being dragged across the paper (Rhodia for those who have waded this far). Now I've just loaded the pen with a different ink - same nib, same paper - and it glides along with a genuinely velvety feel to it.

So, what gives?

[stub]

So, what gives?

1. The properties of the dye itself
2. Humectants, Surfactants

That is why dry usually (but not always) = draggy

Oster, Pelikan, Herbin are a little draggy for me.

Inks that are slick but not wet: Aurora Blue, Aurora Blue Black (ironic as Aurora Black is wet), Many MB inks. My theory on these inks is that they have some extra surface tension (lower on Surfactants) but still are lube-y due to Humectants and the dyes themselves.

But since ink makers are a secretive bunch. This is all just guessing.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Not sure I understand "the properties of the dye".

For me, all of the Sailor inks (for example) are smooth flowing and feeling. Whereas Noodler's (to take another example) are a mixed bunch, some draggy, some smoother. Both makers sell many different colours.

Perhaps this is an unanswerable question then?

[stub]

Not sure I understand "the properties of the dye".

Dies themsleves have properties. One of the reasons Reds, Browns, and Oranges have so much trouble is that they tend to be dry and have to be mitigated with more humectants and surfactants, generally, than blues.

You have Brown inks that crud up (Ancient Copper, etc.) or get goey (Herbin Browns) and refuse to dry? That is b/c some of the water has evaporated and now you have more humectants and surfactants in the ink.

Again. My guess basied on god knows how many years off fooling around with pens. I am not an ink maker. Only 'intuiting' these answers. Grain of salt & all that.

[Chrissy]

Not sure I understand "the properties of the dye".

For me, all of the Sailor inks (for example) are smooth flowing and feeling. Whereas Noodler's (to take another example) are a mixed bunch, some draggy, some smoother. Both makers sell many different colours.

Perhaps this is an unanswerable question then?
Sailor inks are much wetter than most inks. There's the difference.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Does the nib have any impact on this?

[stub]

Does the nib have any impact on this?

The geometry of the nib certainly has an effect. That "pencil-like" feedback some feel on Sailor is definitely due (imo) to the totally eccentric and weird way they do their nibs. Look under a loup. All their nibs are essentially zoom nibs and have these angled facets ground into them. Then hold the nib overhand like a monkey, low to the page. No you are writting on the ass of the tipping which is nice a bootylious and round. Note how smooth it is. Most noticable on B nibs.

[Wuddus]

I'm no chemist, but I have witnessed these differences in my pens. Diamine Teal is fairly similar to Diamine Twilight in colour, but I have found the Teal to be drier (slower flow) and less lubricating. It must be a real balancing act to get the inks to flow well enough to not clog a pen, yet be thick enough to lubricate the nib and act as a cushion between steel and paper. Then on top there's tendencies of feathering, and how all the properties change as some of the liquid evaporates over time.

I don't understand any of it scientifically, and am glad it's a puzzle that I don't have to solve. All I have to do, is pick ones that agree with my nibs, paper, eyes, and wallet.

[stub]

So you don't think I am crazy. A bone stock Sailor B nib. Note the totally comical unwanted facets on the top photo and then the hilarious ridiculous low writing angle dictated by the bottom photo. I am 100% convinced this is why folks think sailors have "pencil-like" feedback.


https://dzwonsemrish7.cloudfront.net/items/0U1x2m0w3W1J1E2L1J0L/crop.jpg


https://dzwonsemrish7.cloudfront.net/items/3N3A0b0F1X3A3A0j2V0Y/side_view.jpg

[Sailor Kenshin]

People also talk of 'lubricated' inks. I believe Noodler's 'Eel' line is a good example.

All I know is that if I find a pen/ink combo that makes my pen happy, I'm likely to stick with the same ink For Ever. And my pens all have different writing characteristics. Some are gushers and need a dry, dry ink such as Pelikan. Others that write dry will want inks like Sailor.

Can't tell you how many times I thought, 'I hate this pen. Kill it with fire!' only to change inks and fall in love.

There are those who know waaayyy more about ink than I do, but I hope this helps.

[stub]

People also talk of 'lubricated' inks. I believe Noodler's 'Eel' line is a good example.

Opinions follow.

I effing hate this. In essence there are 2 different things we are talking about when we talk about "lubrication" in inks and I hate that that these are getting confused.

One is these Eel inks which are a very special specific case. These inks are made to be used in Piston pens and help if your piston is dry and you are having a hard time moving the plunger up and down. They are "lubricated" in the sense that they create the sensation of having serviced your piston. As far as I know these are the only inks that are made to do that. Essentially these are inks to use to PUT OFF a proper piston lube. These tiny rarely use inks have completely hijacked the meaning of "lubriucation" in our discussions. Needlessly imo.

The other more common and useful use of "lubrication" when talking about ink is how the ink feels on the paper. Some ink, like Robert Oster just feels like writing with water and some ink (Aurora Black, Sailor Blue black, Diamine Midnight) has a slick extra greasy feel on the page.

I hate that we are getting these two usuages jumbled up. I wish the Eel inks didn't exists. The muck up every conversation about ink.


Edited to add, the HEAT in this post is NOT AIMED AT SAILOR KENSHIN. AT all (more really at Noodles use of the word "lubricated" here when we were already using it for something else for years, but even that, I am not sure what else they could have said)

[welch]

I feel lubrication in Pilot's Iroshizuku inks, and, in particular, in Asa Gao; also in Pelikan's Edelstein inks. I use a mix of Edelstein Sapphire and Edelstein Topaz, because neither looks right by themselves. Someplace (where??) a Pelikan advertising blurb says that the Edelstein series is formulated to be kind to pistons.

Noodler's claims that Blue Eel, also, will lubricate pistons. No idea if this is true, or even if Edelstein does that.

I did find that Blue Eel is too wet for its own good. It formed ink-pools on Clairefontaine paper, which ghosted onto opposite pages the next day. Maybe a blotter would have helped. However, it behaved more like "croil", the ink that crawls. Tried it in a couple of Onoto K pens and it bled out onto the ring between the hood and section on a pen I had used happily -- no leaks. On another, it seeped around the piston to collect in the back / blind-cap area. Tried it in a Wality piston pen, but it crawled around the piston in the Wality, as well. Also left a ring around the drain in my office sink, and, since I was the only one using a fountain pen, that was no fun.

[azkid]

Unscientific data points and random thoughts follow...

I had an Esterbrook with extremely super-duper fine 2550 nib that had way too much feedback and felt draggy and wrote a very unsaturated thin line with Pelikan 4001 Black, and was transformed with Iroshizuku Take-sumi to a smoothish writer with more ink coming out.

Yet I have a new to me Sheaffer balance M nib that feels like it is gliding over a pool of slick water when using the 4001 Black. And it puts down plenty-- maybe too much-- ink for my tastes.

Also the Iroshizuku put out way way too much ink in my Wahl with flex nib and tended to spread a bit much. The Pelikan transformed it into delivering a more controlled ink flow. (It has a F/XF nib)

I am now very curious what sort of stuff is put into ink and why.

[welch]

Unscientific data points and random thoughts follow...

I am now very curious what sort of stuff is put into ink and why.

Interesting question. Are there recipes for generic fountain pen ink? There should be, since people have been starting up home-brew ink-brands for almost 20 years. However, no commercial ink-maker is likely to release the recipe.

Maybe the companies include ingredients, though not proportions, when applying for a patent. Sean Colfer figured out Solv-X by looking over patent requests for Quink.

[azkid]

I am now very curious what sort of stuff is put into ink and why.

Interesting question. Are there recipes for generic fountain pen ink? There should be, since people have been starting up home-brew ink-brands for almost 20 years. However, no commercial ink-maker is likely to release the recipe.

Maybe the companies include ingredients, though not proportions, when applying for a patent. Sean Colfer figured out Solv-X by looking over patent requests for Quink.

I just started looking into diy ink recipes but haven't gotten past making dye, yet.

Another source is the MSDS. I just found one for Parker Quink (PDF: https://www.msdsdigital.com/parker-quinkpenman-inks-msds) that lists:

Water, diethylene glycol (111-46-6), dyes, preservatives.

Wikipedia says diethylene glycol is a humectant for ink and solvent for dye (and nitrocellulose!).

Here's one for Waterman inks:

Water, ethylene glycol (107-21-1), glycerin (56-81-5), dyes, buffer, surfactant, preservative

Glycerin may be for lubricating the nib/paper interface. Both of the glycols are poison so don't drink your ink :D The buffer has something to do with pH (chemistry has never been my strong suit). I think it is interesting that Quink does not list buffer or surfactant.

This should be an interesting research project. :)

[KrazyIvan]

So you don't think I am crazy. A bone stock Sailor B nib. Note the totally comical unwanted facets on the top photo and then the hilarious ridiculous low writing angle dictated by the bottom photo. I am 100% convinced this is why folks think sailors have "pencil-like" feedback.


https://dzwonsemrish7.cloudfront.net/items/0U1x2m0w3W1J1E2L1J0L/crop.jpg


https://dzwonsemrish7.cloudfront.net/items/3N3A0b0F1X3A3A0j2V0Y/side_view.jpg

Totally off topic.

That looks a lot like my Naginata Togi nib.

[welch]

Here is the patent application from Parker for Quink, explaining each ingredient. It includes Solv-X, as best I can tell. According to Sean Colfer, who found the patent (1,932, 248) Solv-X was "I believe Solv-X was a combination of Phenol, (fungicide) and amyl-xanthale, a flow enhancer. The latter chemical is referred to in the followings ways; "flow promoter" and "the trend of flotation." I think Phenol was the "solvent," (Solv) and the amyl-xanthale provided the "X." Hence, Solv-X."

US Patent Office digitization:

http://pdfpiw.uspto.gov/.piw?PageNum=0&docid=01932248&IDKey=FFEC5E0E6B95%0D%0A&HomeUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fpatft.uspto.gov%2Fnetacgi%2Fn ph-Parser%3FSect1%3DPTO1%2526Sect2%3DHITOFF%2526d%3DP ALL%2526p%3D1%2526u%3D%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25 252Fsrchnum.htm%2526r%3D1%2526f%3DG%2526l%3D50%252 6s1%3D1932248.PN.%2526OS%3DPN%2F1932248%2526RS%3DP N%2F1932248