Sketching: Pencil then ink?

[Wuddus]

I'm no artist. Never have been. I do like to play around occasionally though. However, I haven't really tried to do anything other than dismal illustrations to try and get conversational points across, or just thinking on the page to process ideas, for many, many years. Some of the artwork that gets uploaded here, has got me interested in having a bit of a play around and seeing if I might enjoy it.

My issue is that when I'm sketching something, I spend at least as much time erasing as drawing. I look at what I'm trying to sketch, look at the page, put in a few lines, and look back at the object. I'll then see the angles, lines, lengths and spacings are way off, sketch in the new, erase the old, and view again. All my sketches progress on this basis. They always have. I simply can't see the image one the page until I put one there, and then adjust, tweak, shift and generally faff around until there is a vague resemblance of the subject. By the time I've got some passable outlining and general shape laid in, the page only has about 20%-25% left of all the lines I've thrown at it trying to get some semblance of form.

If I tried sketching with ink only, it would be horrendous. No, I'm not just saying that. It would be very bad, and every sheet would be torn off and screwed up before the number of lines/shapes reached double figures. Pencil first, followed by ink would be my only hope of what I would consider a fair sketch to my own very poor standards. Maybe it's just lack of practice and being rusty in both eye and hand, but attempting ink first right now would be a complete waste of ink, paper, time and sanity.

My questions, are about how to do this when starting with pencil. Will the graphite inhibit the ink, or will the ink inhibit erasing the pencil lines? Should I partially erase it first? Do different leads make a difference? Does different paper need a different approach? Has anyone got any pointers to nudge me in the right direction to minimise wasted time and materials?

I'd be using a sketch pad to start with, possibly a watercolour pad later. Inks will predominantly be Diamine.

[suzy01]

I'd start with the smoothest paper you can find. I like the moleskine sketchbook, and my current seawhite of Brighton is nice too. The best I've fouefor adding pen and water to though is my life drawing pad, can't recaothe nanoright now but will check it when I get to the office. None of these lay completely flat though becaii prefer bound books where I can draw across the gutter. Spiral sketchbooks will allow you to lay it flat. My husband likes his pink pig square sketchbook.

Essentially you need it thick enough to take water but smooth so your fountain pen is happy. I tried thicker texture paper once (not even as textured as watercolour paper) and it kept catching the paper fibers in the nib. Also smooth paper will help you erase your pencil easier.

Normal hb pencil should be fine, my husband likes b or 2b though. The trick is to press very lightly with the pencil so you easily rub out later. You need a decent rubber that won't leave an oily patch on the paper. Your ink needs to be 100% dry before you rub out but other than that it should quite easy.

I don't often use pencil first myself,but like you I don't get the lines right either, I just encorporate the scribbles into my 'style' so it's less obvious. I don't have the time or patience for pencithen pen and I have a high tolerance for when it goes wrong, I have faith ill get better next time [emoji23] Alternatively you can use an ink like mi17 where the lines can be washed into a coloured wash when they're wrong!

Good luck, I look forward to seeing some of your work here, don't worry if it's rubbish to start with you'll definitely get better with practice. I might be quite decent in about ten years myself [emoji16]

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[Wuddus]

Thanks, Suzy. Sounds like a highly diluted wash with a fine brush would be a better approach on the watercolour pad then. I already have the pad I'll be starting with, as I got some watercolours to try out too. Just haven't had the time to try them out yet.

Also, I already have a little A6 sketchpad to start playing around with. It's nice and pocketable, and while it doesn't lie flat, it can comfortably be held in hand when out and about. It seems to work surprisingly well with fountain pens too.

For pencils, I've got a wooden sketch pencil set, running from B to 6B, plus 0.9 leads for a mechanical pencil when out and about, so no issues there. As to erasers, I only use Mars Staedtler plastic erasers, so I don't expect any problems there either. I'll try to have a play around with MI#18 when I get the pens inked up with it.

[azkid]

For what it's worth, I am a huge fan of white plastic erasers and specifically the Pentel Clic-Eraser as well as the Staedler Mars. I feel they remove more graphite from the page.

I always have to draw with pencil first. I plan to use an old 2H Empire Pedigree that's gone disused for ages as I tend to go way too heavy on HB.

[Sailor Kenshin]

Don't erase. Leave all your lines in.

You might not want to, you might shrink from that, but look at professional drawings and sketches. I mean Rembrandt on down; they leave their tentative lines in. Then they reinforce the lines they want to remain with darker ink, pencil, or whatever the medium.

If you treat the sketch AS a sketch rather than a finished work (and these lines sometimes even appear in framed finished drawings), this no-erase approach will help you improve in the long run.

[Wuddus]

Good call. Yes, they'll just be sketches, I was thinking the pencil lines might spoil it, but I take your point.

[Wuddus]

For what it's worth, I am a huge fan of white plastic erasers and specifically the Pentel Clic-Eraser as well as the Staedler Mars. I feel they remove more graphite from the page.

I always have to draw with pencil first. I plan to use an old 2H Empire Pedigree that's gone disused for ages as I tend to go way too heavy on HB.

I find that if I don't use a soft enough pencil, I end up using pressure and leaving indentations on the page. The bolder pencil strokes also give me a better appreciation for where I'm at - failing eyes and all that :D

[Sailor Kenshin]

Good call. Yes, they'll just be sketches, I was thinking the pencil lines might spoil it, but I take your point.

Wish I could find you some more examples, but RGperedo, an accomplished artist, leaves some lines on the page:

Right in the same forum. (https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/6876-Sketches-I-make-when-I-travel-or-walk-around)

Unfortunately, many of the earlier sketches appear as one of those blue question marks, but from about page 4, you can still see some.

[Pterodactylus]

That the sketching take more time than the final line art is normal (at least for me).

I also Sketch first with a pencil and only afterwards with the ink.

I normally won’t do it like Susi, as I change too much, but this is a valid approach especially if your skills advances.
She is right that one (or couple) wrong lines normally would not spoil your whole drawing (especially when you draw loose with many lines), especially if you did the line finding very gentle and with no continuous lines.

In general there is no right or wrong, you have to find your way which works for you.
What helped me, and what I still do is watching a lot of drawing videos on YouTube, to see different techniques and how others draw.

It also depend on the drawing style, if you have a lot loose lines with hatching and cross hatching your attempts to find the correct lines will often not matter, on the other side if you draw with only few confident dedicated outlines every stroke counts.

Select a ink which does not smear or smudge when erasing your pencil sketch
In opposite to Kenshin I always erase my pencil sketch after I did the ink line work.
For me not erasing it seems to be sloppy, I do not like it in my drawings and also in others.
But this is again a style thing.

Softer pencils will make it harder to erase them, I make my pencil sketches very gentle that I can remove them without a trace.

The roughness of the paper is again a style question, first I preferred smooth paper as Suzy, but over time I valued also paper with more texture.

Whenever water is involved then a simple rule values: as thicker the better it is.

I would recommend for notebooks at least 120g/m2, this is fine for dry techniques and (depending on the paper) is also ok for light washes.
I can recommend the Stathmore 400 toned Notebooks (spiral bound) this is an awesome smooth and well behaving drawing paper which can take a lot of abuse (water and a lot of ink, even if it is only 118g/m2).

When you plan to use a lot of water paper with more than 200 g/m2 or even heavier watercolor paper is great.

I can recommend Clairefontaine Paint On Multi techniques paper with 250g/m2 which is a awesome paper no matter what you use (dry or wet).

As Wuddus I also use Staedtler Mars Plastic erasers, for me so far the best erasers I’ve ever used.
The black one is a bit softer than the white one.

Some inks can suffer a little bit when you erase heavily on it.
Especially evident when you are doing your lineart with fineliner pens.
These are all prone to get a dull mate grey touch when erase on them.

Many FP inks are fine and will not smudge or get dull when erasing on them.

But the highest line quality in my experience can be achieved with India ink and dip pens, blackest black and 100% water and eraser proof.

Here I can recommend the Rohrer & Klingner Zeichentusche and Ausziehtusche (with and without Shellak), absolutely top notch stuff, but as said only feasible for dip nibs.

Iˋm looking foreword to see a lot of your work. :)

[manoeuver]

check out non-photo blue pencil, you may find it useful.

I love Sailor Kenshin's advice to leave the botched lines in. Seems like solid advice on improving your drawings quickly.

[Pterodactylus]

check out non-photo blue pencil, you may find it useful.

I love Sailor Kenshin's advice to leave the botched lines in. Seems like solid advice on improving your drawings quickly.

I also have and use colored ones, but they are not as easy to erase than graphite pencil lines.
They have the advantage that you can easily remove them (blue as well as red, or other colors) when you scan your sketches in to proceed digital (e.g. to color your lineart digitally).

Btw. the name “non-photo blue” is a relict as these days the color does not matter anymore ,as long as it is different from black (all can be removed easily digital)

[Wuddus]

Good call. Yes, they'll just be sketches, I was thinking the pencil lines might spoil it, but I take your point.

Wish I could find you some more examples, but RGperedo, an accomplished artist, leaves some lines on the page:

Right in the same forum. (https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/6876-Sketches-I-make-when-I-travel-or-walk-around)

Unfortunately, many of the earlier sketches appear as one of those blue question marks, but from about page 4, you can still see some.

I did actually view that thread before starting this one. Very impressive! Yes, there are some construction lines left visible occasionally, but when your art is that good, you can get away with anything :D I don't expect to be producing anything even 1/4 of that standard.

[suzy01]

Good call. Yes, they'll just be sketches, I was thinking the pencil lines might spoil it, but I take your point.

Wish I could find you some more examples, but RGperedo, an accomplished artist, leaves some lines on the page:

Right in the same forum. (https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/6876-Sketches-I-make-when-I-travel-or-walk-around)

Unfortunately, many of the earlier sketches appear as one of those blue question marks, but from about page 4, you can still see some.Have a look at my husbands instagram, he occasionally leaves his pencil guidelines in:
https://www.instagram.com/walkertoye/

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[Wuddus]

Ptero,

Thank you for such a full reply. The sketchpad paper I have is 150gsm and fairly smooth as far as sketch pads go. I may try a little brush and ink work, but don't expect to use much water other than a damp brush to smear or pull colour slightly. I'll save the washes and wetter work for the watercolour paper.

If I produce anything half decent I'll be happy to share it, and the rest I'll put down to experience. :p

Point taken on the grey smear from bold pencil. What my initial thoughts were, was to add ink and remove graphite when the basic outline shapes were in place, then that will act as a guide to give me the confidence to move straight to detailing with the pen. Again, I'm only really doing it to amuse myself, I have no delusions of skill or style :D

[Wuddus]

Good call. Yes, they'll just be sketches, I was thinking the pencil lines might spoil it, but I take your point.

Wish I could find you some more examples, but RGperedo, an accomplished artist, leaves some lines on the page:

Right in the same forum. (https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/6876-Sketches-I-make-when-I-travel-or-walk-around)

Unfortunately, many of the earlier sketches appear as one of those blue question marks, but from about page 4, you can still see some.Have a look at my husbands instagram, he occasionally leaves his pencil guidelines in:
https://www.instagram.com/walkertoye/

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Again, superb work. With skill levels like that, you can afford to leave in some evidence of how you got there. At my level, it would be more a case of "which out of place lines should I be looking at?" :rofl:

[suzy01]

Good call. Yes, they'll just be sketches, I was thinking the pencil lines might spoil it, but I take your point.

Wish I could find you some more examples, but RGperedo, an accomplished artist, leaves some lines on the page:

Right in the same forum. (https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/6876-Sketches-I-make-when-I-travel-or-walk-around)

Unfortunately, many of the earlier sketches appear as one of those blue question marks, but from about page 4, you can still see some.Have a look at my husbands instagram, he occasionally leaves his pencil guidelines in:
https://www.instagram.com/walkertoye/

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk

Again, superb work. With skill levels like that, you can afford to leave in some evidence of how you got there. At my level, it would be more a case of "which out of place lines should I be looking at?" :rofl:My husband has just said, "the secret is to balance pencil guidelines with how confident you are venturing outside them to fill in detail. Super confident sketchers might just do perspective lines. I do outlines paying special attention to what's in front of what else."

He also said it's less fun pencil drawing the entire piece.

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[Wuddus]

My husband has just said, "the secret is to balance pencil guidelines with how confident you are venturing outside them to fill in detail. Super confident sketchers might just do perspective lines. I do outlines paying special attention to what's in front of what else."

He also said it's less fun pencil drawing the entire piece.

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At this stage, I still have to relearn what I should be seeing in the subject, such as component shapes within the whole, and developing some basic ability. I can understand going without pencil being more fun as you advance, but I'm a long long way off that.

[calamus]

I used to do a lot of drawing years ago, and have recently started getting back into it. My drawing has always been similar to my photography in that I have to do 20 or 30 or more drawings or photos to get a good one, on average. My wife tells me I'm too critical of my work, but I think any objective observer would agree that every now and then one piece will stand out from the others. Anyway, I experiment around with a lot of different approaches. I used to use Rapidograph pens for pen and ink drawings (the old ones with the bakelite bodies), and sometimes I would lightly sketch in pencil first and then go over it in ink, and sometimes, especially once I started feeling more confident, I'd do everything ink. When I started in pencil I usually removed the pencil lines with a kneaded eraser afterwards — once the ink had dried! A few times I didn't wait long enough, and smeared the ink, ruining the drawing. I found that when I did everything in ink, if the drawing didn't work it would fail spectacularly, but when it did it work, it was usually pretty special. Again, the ratio of failure to success was somewhere around 25 to 1.

One cheat that I used occasionally was to do the initial drawing in pencil, erasing and replacing lines as necessary and sometimes leaving a bit of a mess on the paper — smudges, indentations from pressing too hard, etc. — and then put the pencil drawing on a light box and tape my fine toothed paper over it and do the ink. Light boxes are harder to find than they used to be, but they make inexpensive ones for children that are pretty easy to find, although they don't call them light boxes, they call them magic drawing boxes or something goofy like that. You can also make your own by placing a light below a sheet of glass or plastic and shining it up through the transparent/translucent substance.

I'm now using a fine nibbed fountain pen for drawing. I saw on another thread on this forum an example of a very cool technique. Heres a link to it: https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/24246-Mystery-Ink-17/page4. It's the post by suzy01 near the middle of the page. She first did a drawing in pen and ink, then went over it here and there lightly with a water brush (Japanese invention, hollow handle holds water) and the cross-hatching blended together and made a nice gradient. Changes the character of the piece completely. Very nice effect. I'm ordering some Pentel water brushes and will be playing with that technique.

[Wuddus]

I'm my own worst critic too :D I also expect a fairly high failure rate, but that's all part of the learning curve. I used to feel great if I got five good pics off a 36 exposure film. As to artwork, my standard will be lower.

I want to try and get away from tracing, as I don't think I'd get any progress that way. Besides which, a lightbox wouldn't really be practical with the hardback sketchbook I'm using. I've had a go at a couple of pencil sketches in It, just to remind myself how humbly I'm starting :rofl: I'm surprised I haven't erased my way through to the next page yet :D Eventually it did start vaguely resembling what I was trying to achieve...

Yes, I'd spotted Suzy's trick with the water brush, but I'm going to try it with just a damp brush. I'm not going to start spending money on anything else, just for it to be thrown into the corner of the room in a frustrated sulk. I'm just dipping my toe in the water with all this stuff. I don't know if I'll have the patience, eyesight, dexterity/coordination anymore. I wasn't much good years ago, so I doubt i'll have improved in the fallow decades :D I'm not even that interested in other folks seeing it, just something that I can think is half decent - for me! In years past, I have fluked the odd half decent work, and if I can fluke a few more I'll be happy :)

[penwash]

I am also not a trained artist. But I love sketching.

I had always sketches with pencil since I was young, but was never truly happy with the results. But discovering fountain pens has put a boost in my enthusiasm and satisfaction in my sketches. Not that my sketches are anything compared to those from real artists, but it does bring me joy and it's quite effective as a stress-reliever.

Now I don't use pencil anymore (only need it for drawing extra challenging subjects, like people :)

Why fountain pen? Because it feels precise (unlike ballpoint) and because I can't erase my mistakes. Sometimes I can cover-up my mistakes, sometimes the mistake became a "happy-accident" but most of the time, the mistake just sit there, glaring at me, forcing me not only to acknowledge it, but also to finally see what's wrong and what not to do next time.

I would suggest to read some sketching textbooks to familiarize yourself with what makes sketches work. Things like value contrast, different hatching techniques, composition. It takes a lot of practice and failure to internalize these concepts. But everyone knows that already :)

After sketching with fountain pens for a while, now I can pretty much sketch with any nib sizes, the bigger the nib size, the larger my sketches need to be, and different size sketches derives different satisfaction, as I found out.

One last thought, don't draw things that you don't like. Pick a subject that you love, be it natural, still-life, people (very difficult to pull of especially when we just get started).

[azkid]

I was lucky to get one decent photo per roll back when i was doing that. Although sometimes inspiration hit and I got a few more.

Anyway glad you are looking to pick up pen & ink sketching, Wuddus.

Me too and I have a lot to learn and I believe that means I have a lot more mistakes coming. I will try to share most of them on the forum in case it is of interest.

Lots of great advice from many talented folks. I have been lurking and will continue to do so and absorb all I can :)

[Wuddus]

Why fountain pen? Because it feels precise (unlike ballpoint) and because I can't erase my mistakes. Sometimes I can cover-up my mistakes, sometimes the mistake became a "happy-accident" but most of the time, the mistake just sit there, glaring at me, forcing me not only to acknowledge it, but also to finally see what's wrong and what not to do next time.

I'm not sure I'll ever make it to that level. One thing I struggle with is the visualisation. Always have, always will. By this I mean visualising the image on the page, and putting the lines where they need to be, effectively tracing over the visual image. I'm not suggesting that anyone else literally sees the image on the page, but I struggle to pre-empt where the lines/shapes should be in relation to each other, until they're both on the page. This is really not easy to describe... some people are visually oriented, some are auditary, some are movement, whatever I am it's not visually oriented.

So the only way I can "build" the imagery, is put a line down, and then work out how it needs moving, increasing, rotating, or whatever, to form the relationship with the other stuff on the page. I don't know if this is making any sense. If I do it that way, I can sometimes end up with a fair representation on the page - not necessarily artistic, or talented, just my basic acceptable level of competence. Sometimes I fail completely, and have to start all over again looking for other key shapes, angles or relationship to try to build the image from a different foundation.

This might all sound totally bonkers to you all, but I hope you can get a grasp of the steps I have to take in order to not just set fire to it and walk away :rofl:

[Sailor Kenshin]

Hmm....when I did a pencil-sketch before inking, I often used Prismacolor Verithin, in Peacock (green-blue) or ochre. But those pencils are a little waxy and would sometimes repel the ink. If I was penciling in lines now, I might use a very hard, light pencil, with little pressure.

I used to know all the names and terms, too. Where did my brain go? :(

[Wuddus]

Hmm....when I did a pencil-sketch before inking, I often used Prismacolor Verithin, in Peacock (green-blue) or ochre. But those pencils are a little waxy and would sometimes repel the ink. If I was penciling in lines now, I might use a very hard, light pencil, with little pressure.

I used to know all the names and terms, too. Where did my brain go? :(

I think I have some 2H leads somewhere, so I might give that a try and see how it compares.

[Wuddus]

I was lucky to get one decent photo per roll back when i was doing that. Although sometimes inspiration hit and I got a few more.

Anyway glad you are looking to pick up pen & ink sketching, Wuddus.

Me too and I have a lot to learn and I believe that means I have a lot more mistakes coming. I will try to share most of them on the forum in case it is of interest.

Lots of great advice from many talented folks. I have been lurking and will continue to do so and absorb all I can :)

I found photography so much easier. Photography is just capturing what's already there, framing it, choosing what can fall out of focus and what can't, a bit of an exposure tweak, and "click". Then repeat it with a few adjustments in case your calculations were off. So much easier to get a half decent piccie that way.

Creating something on a page, piece by piece, gradually bringing in the tone and form, and keeping all the elements relative, is a whole different challenge for me. To me, a large part of the challenge is not the what, but the how. Studying the subject, trying to see what artists see. Capturing the various elements in my mind, is just as difficult for me as trying to recreate them on the paper.

One thing I have learned which has made my acceptance of what I create easier, is that I'm NOT trying to capture the image on the page. I'm just trying to make a nice picture. Yes, I'd like to capture a little of the mood, or the form or whatever, if at all possible, but not recreate it. If that was the case, I should have brought my camera not my sketchpad. If I can create an image that I'm happy to look at, it doesn't need to be be true to what I've been looking at. This has helped me eliminate the "but it doesn't look like that" hurdle that I always used to faceplant on in the past.

[azkid]

... This is really not easy to describe... some people are visually oriented, some are auditary, some are movement, whatever I am it's not visually oriented.

...

This might all sound totally bonkers to you all, but I hope you can get a grasp of the steps I have to take in order to not just set fire to it and walk away :rofl:

I totally get that. I am visually oriented but I can't just immediately figure out where to put all the lines. Even after sketching with pencil.

I like to feel it out on paper rather than plan everything ahead. Because, frankly, I can't. :)

Photography can be helpful... I want to try post processing some photos to help me abstract the values and forms and try to draw that.

The other thing is that photography gives you a leg up on composition, form, texture, etc.... So that's good.

I figure break it down into simple stuff first. Not a full picture but a tiny detail in a picture. Like a cup. Nothing else. Then work up to more objects and more detailed objects... We'll see how that goes for me... :D

[Sailor Kenshin]

A li'l backstory.

I love stray lines, because they make the work look loose and free. My drawings tend to be shaky, tight and cramped. And flat.

This is probably why loose 'n' free seems admirable to me. I'm reading a children's book now with line drawings that seem decisive, yet the artist leaves in some corrected lines. Freedom.

Rgperedo has some very detailed work, but it still gives the impression of freedom. Penwash has a different type of line, bold and rounded, and I love that look too. Neither artist has a shaky, tight or cramped hand.

In the end, your drawing has to please you, and above all, it should be fun and relaxing.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

For those who think they are one thing and cannot change: you are wrong! :)

Picking out angles, lines, curves, shading and so on in a subject that you are drawing is a learned skill and not an innate one. Sure, some people progress more quickly than others, but that's true in all walks of life. There are many treaties that discuss the need to stop interpreting what you see (when you are drawing or sketching) and simply draw what you see (and not the interpreted object). Practice helps to stop the mind from constantly interpreting what you expect to see as opposed to what is actually there.

For example, drawing a simple line box in perspective. Our minds think of the 3-dimensional box, but on the page there are only straight lines in a horizontal plane. If you draw just one line then it is just a line. Add another and perspective may arise.


tl:dr - just practice more. It will come. [advice from a guy who rarely practices anything! Take it in the spirit intended).

[penwash]

A li'l backstory.

I love stray lines, because they make the work look loose and free. My drawings tend to be shaky, tight and cramped. And flat.



SK, I've seen your sketches. And I don't think it's shaky, tight or cramped. :)

I believe that everyone has a unique style that can be developed. The hardest thing to get to is that point where you know that you're having fun, and you look forward to another drawing or sketch.

[suzy01]

At this stage, I still have to relearn what I should be seeing in the subject, such as component shapes within the whole, and developing some basic ability. I can understand going without pencil being more fun as you advance, but I'm a long long way off that.

My coworker had some great success at going from zero skills to feeling much more confident by following this draw a box website :

http://drawabox.com

Seems like the sort of thing I really need to do myself too but have no patience for 🤣



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[suzy01]

I'm now using a fine nibbed fountain pen for drawing. I saw on another thread on this forum an example of a very cool technique. Heres a link to it: https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/24246-Mystery-Ink-17/page4. It's the post by suzy01 near the middle of the page. She first did a drawing in pen and ink, then went over it here and there lightly with a water brush (Japanese invention, hollow handle holds water) and the cross-hatching blended together and made a nice gradient. Changes the character of the piece completely. Very nice effect. I'm ordering some Pentel water brushes and will be playing with that technique.

Thank you. A normal brush with clean water would achieve the same as Wuddus observed. The reason I bought aqua brushes in the first place was to fill them with a diluted mix of ink and water to make a brushpen (which is OK but you need to add orings to avoid inky fingers), I never draw at home so a dip pen, ink bottle and traditional brush was not practical on the train. My next experiment is to use my aqua brush with a watercolour set to see how well that works on the go now that I have found a good waterproof ink (de atramentis black document ink on case you're wondering). I've read that it's doable by wiping the brush on a small sponge when you want to change colours.

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[Sailor Kenshin]

At this stage, I still have to relearn what I should be seeing in the subject, such as component shapes within the whole, and developing some basic ability. I can understand going without pencil being more fun as you advance, but I'm a long long way off that.

My coworker had some great success at going from zero skills to feeling much more confident by following this draw a box website :

http://drawabox.com

Seems like the sort of thing I really need to do myself too but have no patience for 🤣



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But you sketch 'in the wild,' right? Which is really cool.

My only true waterproof ink is Noodler's Bad Green Gator. Which is green, not black. ;) And will leave lacquer-like particles in your pen.

[suzy01]

But you sketch 'in the wild,' right? Which is really cool.

My only true waterproof ink is Noodler's Bad Green Gator. Which is green, not black. ;) And will leave lacquer-like particles in your pen.

Hahaha, I'd prefer to be in the comfort of my own home than on a shakey train, except my toddler rules the house so when I'm there I'm quite rightly expected to play with her.

I tried noodlers heart of darkness as people said it was waterproof, which I'm sure it is for large quantities of water (I saw one demo with a bucket of water then a bucket of bleach and it was still there) but a subtle wash smudges the top layer off in a grimey sort of splodge so no good for watercolour drawings.

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[Wuddus]

... This is really not easy to describe... some people are visually oriented, some are auditary, some are movement, whatever I am it's not visually oriented.

...

This might all sound totally bonkers to you all, but I hope you can get a grasp of the steps I have to take in order to not just set fire to it and walk away :rofl:

I totally get that. I am visually oriented but I can't just immediately figure out where to put all the lines. Even after sketching with pencil.

I like to feel it out on paper rather than plan everything ahead. Because, frankly, I can't. :)

Photography can be helpful... I want to try post processing some photos to help me abstract the values and forms and try to draw that.

The other thing is that photography gives you a leg up on composition, form, texture, etc.... So that's good.

I figure break it down into simple stuff first. Not a full picture but a tiny detail in a picture. Like a cup. Nothing else. Then work up to more objects and more detailed objects... We'll see how that goes for me... :D

You're one step ahead of me :D Photography first is immensely helpful in my opinion. It's already composed, no distractions from movements or changing light conditions, and you can do a bit and then come back to it later.

Judging from your sketch of the pears, you're well ahead of me in terms of ability too.

[Wuddus]

A li'l backstory.

I love stray lines, because they make the work look loose and free. My drawings tend to be shaky, tight and cramped. And flat.

This is probably why loose 'n' free seems admirable to me. I'm reading a children's book now with line drawings that seem decisive, yet the artist leaves in some corrected lines. Freedom.

Rgperedo has some very detailed work, but it still gives the impression of freedom. Penwash has a different type of line, bold and rounded, and I love that look too. Neither artist has a shaky, tight or cramped hand.

In the end, your drawing has to please you, and above all, it should be fun and relaxing.

While I have said that I don't like stray lines, my drawing were never clean or precise, it's just that there were often more construction lines than finished ones, so unless I keep up with the eraser, it's not clear which lines should be looked at. :p I don't even know if I have a particular style. I just keep fiddling till it looks acceptable to me, or abort and start again. I just find it fun to do, so long as I don't get too frustrated in the process. The end result is somewhat disposable, as it's the doing and not the end product that I enjoy.

[Wuddus]

For those who think they are one thing and cannot change: you are wrong! :)

Picking out angles, lines, curves, shading and so on in a subject that you are drawing is a learned skill and not an innate one. Sure, some people progress more quickly than others, but that's true in all walks of life. There are many treaties that discuss the need to stop interpreting what you see (when you are drawing or sketching) and simply draw what you see (and not the interpreted object). Practice helps to stop the mind from constantly interpreting what you expect to see as opposed to what is actually there.

For example, drawing a simple line box in perspective. Our minds think of the 3-dimensional box, but on the page there are only straight lines in a horizontal plane. If you draw just one line then it is just a line. Add another and perspective may arise.


tl:dr - just practice more. It will come. [advice from a guy who rarely practices anything! Take it in the spirit intended).

I agree - in part. I sort of acknowledged this in an earlier post.

I do need more practice, lots more, and I do take your comments in good spirit. I need practice in seeing things from a sketch perspective, and how the shapes, lines and forms interract. I need practice in seeing what it looks like in 2D without "correcting" dimensions and shadows. In my mental interpretation. I need practice in both creating the forms, but also the contours, lighting and textures, and how to give the illusion on page.

Tl:dr i'm starting from scratch again, and there's a long road ahead of me :D

[penwash]

While I have said that I don't like stray lines, my drawing were never clean or precise, it's just that there were often more construction lines than finished ones, so unless I keep up with the eraser, it's not clear which lines should be looked at. :p I don't even know if I have a particular style. I just keep fiddling till it looks acceptable to me, or abort and start again. I just find it fun to do, so long as I don't get too frustrated in the process. The end result is somewhat disposable, as it's the doing and not the end product that I enjoy.

One very beneficial habit to develop (at least it didn't come naturally for me) is to look back at my "mistakes". I periodically go through my sketches and examine what could be improved.
Sometimes it's difficult to push myself to do it, but every time I managed to do it, I see new things that I hadn't noticed before.

[Wuddus]

Following the advice from this thread, I've now switched to using 2H leads for the initial sketch, and the page does look a lot cleaner. It also means it will be less distracting should any of the remnants remain once the ink hits the page.

It's certainly harder work for my failing eyesight, but it may prove to be worth the extra effort in that regard. Thanks folks. :)

[Wuddus]

One very beneficial habit to develop (at least it didn't come naturally for me) is to look back at my "mistakes". I periodically go through my sketches and examine what could be improved.
Sometimes it's difficult to push myself to do it, but every time I managed to do it, I see new things that I hadn't noticed before.

I think seeing the mistakes will be pretty easy :D I think understanding them, and learning new techniques to improve in future, will take longer.

As a random example, i've started having a go at sketching a scene in an old photo, and there's a large bush in there. I suddenly hit a blank as to creating the texture, and giving the impression of the texture of the bush without it being a mass of scribble. Not that it's a big issue. As I've said, I'm at the start of a long learning curve, so there's a lot to learn in terms of techniques and researching different methods.

[penwash]

One very beneficial habit to develop (at least it didn't come naturally for me) is to look back at my "mistakes". I periodically go through my sketches and examine what could be improved.
Sometimes it's difficult to push myself to do it, but every time I managed to do it, I see new things that I hadn't noticed before.

I think seeing the mistakes will be pretty easy :D I think understanding them, and learning new techniques to improve in future, will take longer.

As a random example, i've started having a go at sketching a scene in an old photo, and there's a large bush in there. I suddenly hit a blank as to creating the texture, and giving the impression of the texture of the bush without it being a mass of scribble. Not that it's a big issue. As I've said, I'm at the start of a long learning curve, so there's a lot to learn in terms of techniques and researching different methods.

Let's use that particular situation that you used as an example, not knowing how to draw the bush, I would draw it as a mass of scribble. Then I would draw an arrow pointing to it and write "Not happy with this at all!".

Then, fast forward to the (hopefully near) future, where I review my past sketches and came across this one, I would see that arrow with that comment, and maybe at that point, I've gotten an insight or a technique that I saw somewhere, and was able to give drawing the bush a second try.

My point is that reviewing your past sketches helps to understand what needs to be fixed and keep on improving.

[Sailor Kenshin]

Also...once you have the shape roughed ink pick out the lights and darks of the bush, and render those as simply as possible.

The things I'm remembering.

[Wuddus]

Thanks again, folks.

I've got a few simple sketches on the go in pencil, which I'm hoping to add ink to and upload in the MI#18 thread. I'm still using up the ink from MI#17, so the pens aren't inked yet, but should be by the time Scooby get the ink to everyone else participating.

[titrisol]

Yes, that was the way of technical drafting when I went to college
Pencil lines were covered with rapidrograph ink lines and all the graphite erased; if you needed color you filled the rapidograph lines but we were taught to use black 99% of the times
Both the pencil and the eraser made a world of difference, I found Staedtler Lumograph and Faber Castell 9000 (dark green) pencils were the best and more consistent. There was a pencil brand from Czechoslovakia that made excellent pencils as well but can't rememeber the name (it was a a french name)
You can also use a mechanical pencil, and use a good brands of leads.

Depending on how heavy your hand is, the grade of pencil you will need.
If you apply light pressure a H or 2H maybe enough, or you may need to go to 3H or 4H depending on your pressure

Eraser is very important, I loved the ones from Rotring and Staedtler and you will spend probably 3x more time erasing carefully than drawing

[Wuddus]

Thanks to all the fellow geeks for all your valuable input. I had a go at a couple of pics for Scooby's Mystery Ink #18, and I'm quite happy with how this one turned out in the end.

40375

It started off as just a sketch, but it was looking pretty rough to be honest. I put the pen down, and dry brushed the shading and texture, and it transformed it into something I was a lot more pleased with.

[azkid]

Wow, well done!

[suzy01]

That's really lovely :)

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk

[Wuddus]

Thanks guys. To me honest, I did cheat a bit. It was a sketch from someone else's artwork, not a photo, so I could see the technique used as well as the image.

[azkid]

That seems like a great approach. One I think I will be adopting :)