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View Full Version : Amateur "rosin based" sealant trials and tribulations



Flounder
May 9th, 2013, 12:47 PM
The last few days, I've been trying my hand at making some of this elusive "rosin based" sealant that sounds so handy. It's not something I've seen for sale domestically, or, in truth, at all, ever! I've come across various clues about consistency, proportion of rosin to castor oil, and so on, but with no experience of the stuff, I'm not sure if I'm getting close or way off the right track.

Today's test threw up a lot more questions than answers, so I'd like to ask anyone who's got ahold of this stuff how this DIY mix differs from theirs!

Today's FP test:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4z6d-feK8NQ

Yesterday's BP test:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAjGnHHP7LA

Mixing the stuff up:
http://flounders-mindthots.blogspot.com/2013/05/rosin-based-fountain-pen-sealant.html

HughC
May 9th, 2013, 02:39 PM
Looks to me you need to heat the mix more, it should be a clear honey colour. Put the rosin and a bit of oil in a jar, heat and mix until clear and let cool. If it sets hard just add a bit more oil and heat again. When it's a tachy liquid at room temperature it' right. It's the same as used for violin strings and like, again the hardness of is determined by the amount of castor oil in the block.

Regards
Hugh

Flounder
May 10th, 2013, 11:12 AM
Thanks Hugh, that's a great help. It looks like there are at least two different types of this mysterious sealant, going by the descriptions - one thin and honey coloured, the other very thick and dark. I'll modify this lot to try matching the qualities you've described, and make up a separate pot of the dark thick stuff.

As a rough guide, should I shoot for the same level of liquidity at room temp as shown here while it was hot?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q-Fj8lYHI8

HughC
May 10th, 2013, 03:46 PM
Mine is a very thick, tacky liquid at room temp. I would think thicker than you show would be better.

Regards
Hugh

Flounder
May 12th, 2013, 01:33 PM
I was given some very hard, dark rosin, and gave that a go. It seems to cook and mix far better with the castor oil, and the resultant goo is much more adhesive too. I'm thinking maybe the last rosin cake I used - the "Theodore" brand stuff - was too soft. Does that make sense?

http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy19/flounder2009/Rosin%20Based%20Fountain%20Pen%20Sealant/DarkerRosinSealant768.jpg

PSmith
May 12th, 2013, 05:04 PM
Interesting experiment.

I have two questions though:
- When would you use rosin based sealant instead of shellac.
- How do you remove it should you wish to do so. Does it dissolve in alcohol?

Flounder
May 13th, 2013, 02:07 PM
Hi PSMith, from what I've read on various FPN threads and websites, the idea seems to be you would use this in circumstances where shellac would make future disassembly risky. Rosin sealant is also supposed to release at a lower temperature than shellac does. I've found that olive oil gets it off your fingers very well.; as for pens, Ron Zorn says "naphtha or mineral spirits (http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/156429-securing-parker-clip-screws-and-jewels/#entry1557654)" will dissolve it. BTW - Main Street Pens in the US and A sell premixed rosin sealant.

This has been a very interesting exercise for me on many levels. The surprisingly adhesive quality of the rosin/oil combo, combined with a PM about its resistance to water based solvents, Mr. Zorn's comment about naptha, and the flammability of rosin itself as reported by Pytheas a bajillion years ago have all combined to lend me more respect for Anna Comnena's dry and somewhat embittered Alexiad. I'm off to reread her comments about tree resin in Greek Fire.

Anyway, here's today's report:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myAauyFn-y0

PSmith
May 13th, 2013, 03:51 PM
Hello Flounder,

Thank you for the informative answer.

If memory serves me right, I should have some chunks of colophony stashed somewhere. It seems that colophony is the same thing as rosin, so if I can find some castor oil, I'll give it a try myself. Although I do not currently need this type of sealant, it seems interesting to make. Bearing in mind your comment regarding Greek fire, I'll keep a fire extinguisher within reach.

Incidentally, home made soldering flux is made by dissolving rosin in isopropyl alcohol. Perhaps isopropyl alcohol could consequently also be used, instead of naphtha, to remove the sealant. Unless the castor oil somehow interferes of course.

HughC
May 16th, 2013, 03:51 PM
Interesting experiment.

I have two questions though:
- When would you use rosin based sealant instead of shellac.
- How do you remove it should you wish to do so. Does it dissolve in alcohol?

Use rosin sealant where you want an air tight seal ( semi permanent) on threads. Some examples are screw in nib/feed units ( like Sheaffer Triumph nibs on Snorkels ) , section threads on Sheaffer TDs and any threads that come loose when you don't want them to. The benefit over shellac is that it remains a liquid for a long time so can be undone easily or with minimum heat. it does dry out in the long term, I've never undone an early Sheaffer TD and found the sealant still a liquid and in those cases it needs heat to release. Alcohol should remove it. If you want a seal that's not permanent ( like an eyedropper that's leaking around the treads) use silicon grease.

Flounder's "brew" looks about as good as it gets !! Well done.

Regards
Hugh

whych
May 16th, 2013, 05:03 PM
Incidentally, home made soldering flux is made by dissolving rosin in isopropyl alcohol. Perhaps isopropyl alcohol could consequently also be used, instead of naphtha, to remove the sealant. Unless the castor oil somehow interferes of course.

You want to stay away from alcohol if you can - it damages some pen plastics and cellulose.

Flounder
May 18th, 2013, 09:55 AM
Thanks Hugh, that's very encouraging! The new rosin is here, but I still need to find something to store it in after mixture. In re: naptha versus alcohol considerations, in the link above Mr. Zorn says alcohol will damage the celluloid P51 jewel.

ps - as an aside, I have two late 51s (O ringed hoods, open clutch caps) that strangely hadn't any sealant at all applied to the jewel threads, rosin, shellac or otherwise.

edit - pps, I would be very interested to hear how easy/difficult the touchdowns with dried out rosin sealant were to open after heating. Oh - and how much sealant had the factory applied? Was a mere insinuation enough, or did they go heavy on the stuff?

Flounder
May 21st, 2013, 02:37 PM
Here's the last batch of sealant, this time using a hard amber brand called "Hidersine", and the results of the Frontier thread test using the dark "A.B." rosin applied in the last video.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSQvAcnTu1w

Based on the last week or so, I think I'm happy to put an end to the experiments and just start using this stuff. Thanks for all the help, you fellows!

HughC
May 21st, 2013, 03:48 PM
Thanks Hugh, that's very encouraging! The new rosin is here, but I still need to find something to store it in after mixture. In re: naptha versus alcohol considerations, in the link above Mr. Zorn says alcohol will damage the celluloid P51 jewel.

ps - as an aside, I have two late 51s (O ringed hoods, open clutch caps) that strangely hadn't any sealant at all applied to the jewel threads, rosin, shellac or otherwise.

edit - pps, I would be very interested to hear how easy/difficult the touchdowns with dried out rosin sealant were to open after heating. Oh - and how much sealant had the factory applied? Was a mere insinuation enough, or did they go heavy on the stuff?

Hi,

I store mine in a glass jar. The touchdowns open easily, a lot easier than things stuck with shellac. I try using as least heat as possible, heat a bit, try, heat again and so on. There seems to be a reasonable amount on the old TDs, but it may be the case of a "little bit goes a long way", anyway I don't use much and it does seem to grip well and spreads out over the threads if you apply near the start of them.

Regards
Hugh

grandmia
May 21st, 2013, 04:49 PM
Hi Flounder
Great experiment, thanks it was fun watching.

cedargirl
May 21st, 2013, 06:25 PM
snip

Hi,

I store mine in a glass jar. The touchdowns open easily, a lot easier than things stuck with shellac. I try using as least heat as possible, heat a bit, try, heat again and so on. There seems to be a reasonable amount on the old TDs, but it may be the case of a "little bit goes a long way", anyway I don't use much and it does seem to grip well and spreads out over the threads if you apply near the start of them.

Regards
Hugh

Hi Hugh

What brand of rosin did you get hold of in Australia and where did you get it?

thanks
Claire

HughC
May 21st, 2013, 08:58 PM
snip

Hi,

I store mine in a glass jar. The touchdowns open easily, a lot easier than things stuck with shellac. I try using as least heat as possible, heat a bit, try, heat again and so on. There seems to be a reasonable amount on the old TDs, but it may be the case of a "little bit goes a long way", anyway I don't use much and it does seem to grip well and spreads out over the threads if you apply near the start of them.

Regards
Hugh

Hi Hugh

What brand of rosin did you get hold of in Australia and where did you get it?

thanks
Claire

Hi Claire,

I picked up some from a music shop, it's the same as used on violin and other string instruments. I'm not sure of brand, I bought "powdered" to make mixing easier. I'll look and see if I've still got the tin and see what brand. You only need a small block as you use very little.

Regards
Hugh

cedargirl
May 21st, 2013, 10:35 PM
Hi Claire,

I picked up some from a music shop, it's the same as used on violin and other string instruments. I'm not sure of brand, I bought "powdered" to make mixing easier. I'll look and see if I've still got the tin and see what brand. You only need a small block as you use very little.

Regards
Hugh

Thanks - I'll see what the local music stores have.

Flounder
May 22nd, 2013, 10:55 AM
And thank you for watching Stef, it was fun to do!

ps - greater surface area and all that, please be extra careful if using powdered rosin Claire.

cedargirl
May 22nd, 2013, 04:04 PM
snip ... please be extra careful if using powdered rosin Claire.

Thanks for the warning, Flounder. I'm guessing because it is flammable, when in powdered form it would be quite combustible. So make sure it is mixed with the oil before moving to the heat. Is that how it works?

Claire

Flounder
May 22nd, 2013, 04:43 PM
I can't really say Annie! The first dud batch I powdered, then mixed in some oil, then heated in a bain marie. The batches that actually worked, I broke up the rosin into little chunks, melted them to a liquid, and then added drops of oil while mixing. Then I allowed to cool, and checked the consistency with the darning needle.

HughC
May 22nd, 2013, 05:39 PM
I put it in the jar ( that I'm going to leave it in) with a little oil and use an electric hot air gun ( into the top of the jar) to melt and mix, heat until a clear liquid. Let it cool and if it solidifies add a bit more oil and repeat until it remains a thick, tacky liquid at room temperature. If you buy a "soft" rosin it already has oil mixed in so should be easier and quicker.

Regards
Hugh

cedargirl
May 22nd, 2013, 05:41 PM
Brilliant. Thanks.

firstpancake
July 18th, 2013, 06:37 PM
How inspiring! I may try to cook up a batch myself.
However, as a former violinst, I'm not sure if I can bring myself to butcher a block of rosin. Just seeing the pics and videos was a little heartbreaking. I'm sure the first think I'll do is source the poorest block I can get my hands on to take the sting off, then there's the little part of me that still loves the precious shiny new block of rosin feeling. :smow::smow::smow:

If I finally get the courage to start hacking away at some rosin, is there a reason why castor oil is used? What properties should a good rosin sealant oil have?

79spitfire
July 20th, 2013, 02:32 PM
I'm going to try this, I just ordered some inexpensive rosin, and will source some castor oil the next time I'm at the pharmacy.

Tony Rex
September 26th, 2014, 04:56 AM
My thanks to Flounder and HughC for their wonderful pointers on how to make this gloopiest substance ever.

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3915/15172085137_738943abbe_z.jpg
The Castor Oil was from the chemist warehouse for four bucks. The rosin cost $2 from eBay.

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3923/15171852129_9aedc4d587_z.jpg
Cooked over low heat.

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2950/15172033968_2d5f8dd486_z.jpg
Voila.

Farmboy
September 26th, 2014, 08:17 AM
I'd rather see 'that' be a heat gun instead of a candle.

FB

Tony Rex
September 26th, 2014, 08:28 AM
Point taken. At the time of testing above, "that" was the closest thing and good enough for example purposes.

At the risk of preaching to the choir: “Do not use open flame on pens folks! Especially celluloid!”. Cheers.

Flounder
September 26th, 2014, 12:01 PM
Tony, may I take it you're a fan of Breaking Bad :D Love your shady setup!

In Jeph's vacumatic thread a while back, I posted a less-meandering step by step bizney, if anyone else is rosining for the first time.
http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/6727-Parker-Blue-Striped-Duofold-Vac-Fill-Restoration?p=76268&viewfull=1#post76268

scrivelry
September 26th, 2014, 07:37 PM
My thanks to Flounder and HughC for their wonderful pointers on how to make this gloopiest substance ever.

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3915/15172085137_738943abbe_z.jpg
The Castor Oil was from the chemist warehouse for four bucks. The rosin cost $2 from eBay.

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3923/15171852129_9aedc4d587_z.jpg
Cooked over low heat.

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2950/15172033968_2d5f8dd486_z.jpg
Voila.

Love your little jam/honey jar! The thread sealant being a credible honey/preserve color, glad you labelled it so clearly!

RayCornett
October 15th, 2014, 09:16 PM
I made a batch of this earlier this year with dark rosin and castor oil and it works like a charm. I however made it just strong enough as to not need a heat gun or candle. It does, however, take a firm grip and some careful muscle. There was one time I did need heat but the heat from holding it firmly in my hand creating body heat for about 2 minutes was plenty. I traded some off to others for a couple pens and they were extremely happy with it as well.

I made mine using my microwave a minute at a time to soften the rosin in a small glass pimento jar. It took about 4-5 minutes to begin to soften. Then I stirred with a toothpick every minute until it became liquid. Once liquid I added a touch of castor oil and let it cool completely. I added more in very small amounts and let it cool completely until it was the consistency I wanted. It was a several hour process considering the time needed for complete cooling to room temp between tests but well worth it. Between the 4 ounce bar of rosin and maybe 1.5 ounces of castor oil I ended up needing I have enough sealant to last a very long time. You need very little to make it work. It seemed to set in under 10 minutes.

Farmboy
October 15th, 2014, 09:26 PM
Ray,

With the knowledge we have today regarding open flames and pen repair, why would you use a candle?

Farmboy

RayCornett
October 17th, 2014, 04:33 PM
My reply says I made it just strong enough as to NOT need a heat gun or candle. I listed candle and heatgun because those are the two common heat sources people use. That's all :)




Ray,

With the knowledge we have today regarding open flames and pen repair, why would you use a candle?

Farmboy

Farmboy
October 17th, 2014, 09:07 PM
My reply says I made it just strong enough as to NOT need a heat gun or candle. I listed candle and heatgun because those are the two common heat sources people use. That's all :)




Ray,

With the knowledge we have today regarding open flames and pen repair, why would you use a candle?

Farmboy

And with the knowledge we have today, why mention open flames? I've seen enough times a pen that was damaged beyond repairs because someone found something on the internet about how to fix it...that didn't work out.

Anyone from the Sacramento area going to make it to the Pen Posse on the 19th or the PPPC meeting on the 25th?

RayCornett
October 17th, 2014, 09:19 PM
When and where? Id need to get a ride from south sac.

Farmboy
October 18th, 2014, 12:03 AM
PPPC is on the 25th at the Pacifica Community Center from 11 to 2. I'm sure there will be Sacramento people in attendance. The Dixon crowd will be there, they never miss. Sometimes the Arbucle guys show up. Bit of a stretch for the guys from Chico but you never know. The PPPC meetings are sort of like a 20-25 table pen show.

The next Pen Posse is on the 19th at Peter's Cafe in Millbrae on the 19th at Peter's Cafe. Figure it starts around 12:45 or so and runs until it quits. This one is about Esterbrooks that need help. More specifically I think we are doing a lung transplant and possibly whacking a few nibs.

I think Aletc started a thread about the Posse and Markh started one about the PPPC on this board and on FPN and FPB. Try a post there about a ride and we will direct others there that can possibly help.

Jon Szanto
October 18th, 2014, 12:57 AM
http://unitednuclear.com/images/alc1.jpg