Advice on brown and grey ink

[Analogriter]

I'm wondering if anyone can give me some input on this situation. If any of this has been mentioned already in a post could you post a link to it.

Here's my situation. I take a lot of notes with composition notebooks and spiral notebooks. These are for self study so I go through a notebook in a few days so I can't really get fountain pen notebooks like Rhodia because it will get expensive really fast. I have always used pencil because fp ink would feather or show up on the other side. Lately, I have tried inks that are not that saturated and it is ok, but here is another factor that messes things up. I use only extra fine and fine nibs so i'm not putting a lot of ink of the page. So after some experimenting I realize that I need to find an ink color that is saturated just enough to give the fine line enough color so I can see it effortlessly but not too much to show through on the other side, so that I can write on both sides, and has medium flow, not too wet and not too dry. Too dry and the fine nib makes it too scratchy and too wet I'm putting down too much ink. I have settled gravitated towards greys and browns, but i'm open to any suggestion. Also, I notice that if the ink is too light it will reflect the overhead lighting until it dries and this can be very distracting. I noticed this with Iroshizuku Kiri-Same. For the greys have used Diamine Grey, Kiri-Same, as i mentioned previously; and for the browns, Montblanc Toffee Brown, and Diamine Ancient Copper. I liked the Diamine Grey but the Kiri-Same is too light and then there is the reflection problem. Any advice would be greatly appreciated and keep on putting ink to paper!

[azkid]

Though I don't have lots of experience, I have observed that some inks behave much better on crummy paper than others, without feathering or bleeding through.

As for brown ink, I have truly enjoyed Diamine Macassar. I don't use cheap paper though and I don't remember the last time I tried this ink on bottom of the barrel notebook paper. If I get a chance I will do so and report back. It seems to flow well and lubricate well in the pens I have tried. It shades a bit and I don't believe it is highly saturated but plenty dark to stand off the page.

Edit:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180615/80789ac1619cfbfc98b9149335badb95.jpg

It may help, also, if you consider trying different budget notebooks. I picked up one from Staples the other day which originates from Egypt and while it did have show through (not bleed through) it seemed much less prone to feathering than others I have tried. I have seen a number of suggestions on this and other forums for ultra budget notebooks that hold up to FP inks.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180615/afbc5b74308e5d6f33152c075196e1b8.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180615/4014dcfd36c297c674ee3652d05242bf.jpg

[FredRydr]

Waterman Havana brown. Comes out brown, sometimes turns towards grey depending on the paper.

[Takasnooze]

My favorite gray is Noodler's Lexington Gray. inexpensive and water resistant too. I keep several pens inked with this.

[Wuddus]

My brown of choice is Diamine Chocolate Brown. Another very dark favourite of mine is Diamine Grape. Bleed and feather will likely depend on the pen/paper combo, but I've found both these inks to be very well behaved.

[Analogriter]

Thanks for the info, I will try to find the other posts. I don't need to buy really cheap notebook. Perhaps maybe something in between in cost is ok.

[Analogriter]

Thanks, I'll put that on the list.

[Analogriter]

My favorite gray is Noodler's Lexington Gray. inexpensive and water resistant too. I keep several pens inked with this.

Thanks, will put that on the list

[Analogriter]

My brown of choice is Diamine Chocolate Brown. Another very dark favourite of mine is Diamine Grape. Bleed and feather will likely depend on the pen/paper combo, but I've found both these inks to be very well behaved.

Ok, I'll put the Chocolate Brown on the list.

[Pterodactylus]

Imo you are not limited to brown and grey just to limit the show through.

What you can try is an iron gall ink.
With an IG ink you almost can write on toilet paper without feathering, bleed and show through.
So,it is for sure worth a try.

I can recommend e.g (these are some of my all time favorite inks):

- ESS Registrars Blue/Black
- Pelikan 4001 Blue-Black
- Rohrer & Klingner Salix
- Rohrer & Klingner Scabiosa

All these inks perform exceptional well.

But if you only could give one a try I would say try the ESS one (easy to get at a excellent price all over the world, directly from the manufacturers website)

[Analogriter]

Imo you are not limited to brown and grey just to limit the show through.

What you can try is an iron gall ink.
With an IG ink you almost can write on toilet paper without feathering, bleed and show through.
So,it is for sure worth a try.

I can recommend e.g (these are some of my all time favorite inks):

- ESS Registrars Blue/Black
- Pelikan 4001 Blue-Black
- Rohrer & Klingner Salix
- Rohrer & Klingner Scabiosa

All these inks perform exceptional well.

But if you only could give one a try I would say try the ESS one (easy to get at a excellent price all over the world, directly from the manufacturers website)

Are they safe to use in any pen? I remember vaguely reading about it somewhere.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pterodactylus]

Imo you are not limited to brown and grey just to limit the show through.

What you can try is an iron gall ink.
With an IG ink you almost can write on toilet paper without feathering, bleed and show through.
So,it is for sure worth a try.

I can recommend e.g (these are some of my all time favorite inks):

- ESS Registrars Blue/Black
- Pelikan 4001 Blue-Black
- Rohrer & Klingner Salix
- Rohrer & Klingner Scabiosa

All these inks perform exceptional well.

But if you only could give one a try I would say try the ESS one (easy to get at a excellent price all over the world, directly from the manufacturers website)

Are they safe to use in any pen? I remember vaguely reading about it somewhere.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you ask me, I can tell you in my experience 100% yes, they need not more maintenance than other inks.
I never had any issue with these inks.
I´ve continuously inked up a cheap Serwex MB with a FPR steel flex nib for years with the ESS one, only refilling no cleaning and no sign of the slightest corrosion.

But Iˋm sure that somebody will again post something like: A friend of my brothers friend heard that evil IG inks eaten up steel nibs faster than somebody could screw on the cap to a pen.

I can only tell you, if you do not try such a ink you will miss something, they are performance wise a class of their own.

And the manufacturers of these inks are big players (at least Pelikan and R&K) on the ink market.
These inks are on the market for decades now and proven their reliability.

[Analogriter]

Imo you are not limited to brown and grey just to limit the show through.

What you can try is an iron gall ink.
With an IG ink you almost can write on toilet paper without feathering, bleed and show through.
So,it is for sure worth a try.

I can recommend e.g (these are some of my all time favorite inks):

- ESS Registrars Blue/Black
- Pelikan 4001 Blue-Black
- Rohrer & Klingner Salix
- Rohrer & Klingner Scabiosa

All these inks perform exceptional well.

But if you only could give one a try I would say try the ESS one (easy to get at a excellent price all over the world, directly from the manufacturers website)

Are they safe to use in any pen? I remember vaguely reading about it somewhere.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you ask me, I can tell you in my experience 100% yes, they need not more maintenance than other inks.
I never had any issue with these inks.
I´ve continuously inked up a cheap Serwex MB with a FPR steel flex nib for years with the ESS one, only refilling no cleaning and no sign of the slightest corrosion.

But Iˋm sure that somebody will again post something like: A friend of my brothers friend heard that evil IG inks eaten up steel nibs faster than somebody could screw on the cap to a pen.

I can only tell you, if you do not try such a ink you will miss something, they are performance wise a class of their own.

And the manufacturers of these inks are big players (at least Pelikan and R&K) on the ink market.
These inks are on the market for decades now and proven their reliability.

Ok, I just looked up pelikans 4001 series and read through some of the literature, but it doesn’t mention anything about usability on uncounted paper or composition notebook paper, which I didn’t expect them to. They only mention permanency. So doesn’t that aspect make it less lightly to feather and show through to the other side because it sits on the surface of the paper more instead of the majority of the ink being absorbed into the water?


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[Pterodactylus]

May I repost the below, which I prepared some time ago to illustrate ink differences:


https://farm1.staticflickr.com/876/26389538067_8e7f2aa763_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/GcXhgD)
Ink differences in a wet pen (https://flic.kr/p/GcXhgD) by Ptero Pterodactylus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/117783735@N07/), auf Flickr

May I give an example which huge difference the ink can make.

Currently I´ve tinkering arround with an FPR Himalaya.
This pen was an extremly wet pen per default (which is a good thing for a pen with a (somehow) flexible nib.

I´ve EMF modded the nib and the big amount of extra flex made this pen a real gusher (even I´ve heat set the feed).
It now lays down seas of ink (and it do not have railroading problems even without modifying the feed, which is normally necessary if you add more flex to a nib).

The picture illustrates the differences the ink can make.

All writing is done with the same pen, an FPR Himalaya with an EMF modded FPR flex nb.

Paper is good quality Clairefontaine.

Above Sheaffer Skrip Purple:
Massive bleeding and feathering.

Middle:
Back side of the paper, massive show through and bleed through.

Bottom:
Pelikan 4001 Blue-Black, no feathering, no bleeding, no show through no bleed through, and believe me, you see nothing on the other side of the paper (otherwise I would have made a picture)
The edges of the ink are sharp and clearly defined, simply a top notch result.


Yes a dry ink can reduce the flow of the ink and normally also this will make a huge difference.
But in this case even this make no real difference other attributes of the ink show up here as well clearly.

Also with the Pelikan ink the pen lays down seas of ink, it is still a gusher, but the result is a completely different.
Here the overall quality of an ink shows up clearly.

Many inks work well on "normal" conditions (more or less), but these conditions are normally no challange for the quality of a ink.

The difference will show up when you lay down seas of ink, will it bleed, feather, show and bleed through the paper?

These conditions separates the top notch inks from the common average inks (every newby ink designer can throw on the market) and will make an incredible difference.

[Pterodactylus]

Only the Blue-Black 4001 ink contains a small potion of IG, the other colors are no IG inks.

And yes IG inks are permanent.

[Analogriter]

May I repost the below, which I prepared some time ago to illustrate ink differences:


https://farm1.staticflickr.com/876/26389538067_8e7f2aa763_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/GcXhgD)
Ink differences in a wet pen (https://flic.kr/p/GcXhgD) by Ptero Pterodactylus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/117783735@N07/), auf Flickr

May I give an example which huge difference the ink can make.

Currently I´ve tinkering arround with an FPR Himalaya.
This pen was an extremly wet pen per default (which is a good thing for a pen with a (somehow) flexible nib.

I´ve EMF modded the nib and the big amount of extra flex made this pen a real gusher (even I´ve heat set the feed).
It now lays down seas of ink (and it do not have railroading problems even without modifying the feed, which is normally necessary if you add more flex to a nib).

The picture illustrates the differences the ink can make.

All writing is done with the same pen, an FPR Himalaya with an EMF modded FPR flex nb.

Paper is good quality Clairefontaine.

Above Sheaffer Skrip Purple:
Massive bleeding and feathering.

Middle:
Back side of the paper, massive show through and bleed through.

Bottom:
Pelikan 4001 Blue-Black, no feathering, no bleeding, no show through no bleed through, and believe me, you see nothing on the other side of the paper (otherwise I would have made a picture)
The edges of the ink are sharp and clearly defined, simply a top notch result.


Yes a dry ink can reduce the flow of the ink and normally also this will make a huge difference.
But in this case even this make no real difference other attributes of the ink show up here as well clearly.

Also with the Pelikan ink the pen lays down seas of ink, it is still a gusher, but the result is a completely different.
Here the overall quality of an ink shows up clearly.

Many inks work well on "normal" conditions (more or less), but these conditions are normally no challange for the quality of a ink.

The difference will show up when you lay down seas of ink, will it bleed, feather, show and bleed through the paper?

These conditions separates the top notch inks from the common average inks (every newby ink designer can throw on the market) and will make an incredible difference.

Thank you very much, your photo was very informative. It seems like iron gall inks have solved my issue.

It seems like this would be the main concern for most people using a writing instrument. Then why don’t more people just use these inks? Is it because of the limited palette that iron gall can be produced in?


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[Pterodactylus]

In former times the formulation of IG inks were much more aggressive than in modern IG inks.
IG inks were used for centuries and there was nothing which could outperform IG inks.
On the downside the inks sometimes destroyed the paper, there are books which really had holes where the ink was applied, this process took decades or even centuries.
Not in all cases such problems showed up, as basically each Monk had his own recipe to create his ink.
No industrial methods were used to control the process and make it reproducible.

Because of their great acidity they also corroded iron and steel nibs quite fast.
Such inks are still on the market, calligraphers use them with their dip nibs because the performance of these inks is still unmatched. The line definitions are razor sharp and they behave just awesome.
But you can´t use such IG inks in FPs, just as you can’t use India ink in FPs.

In the second half of the last century ink manufacturers developed these new FP IG inks trying to preserve the advantages of IG inks without their disadvantages.
Basically they reduced the IG potion and industrially controlled the process.

And imo they did a really good job.

But you know how it is, if the reputation of something is already damaged (no matter if people distinguish between dip ink, ancient ink, modern FP ink) it is difficult to restore it.

These days also many ink designers (one man shows) came up with their own IG inks.
But to be honest I would be careful about these inks which are mixed by somebody in the basement.

Therefor I only recommended you ones which are imo safe and come from trustworthy companies.

[Analogriter]

In former times the formulation of IG inks were much more aggressive than in modern IG inks.
IG inks were used for centuries and there was nothing which could outperform IG inks.
On the downside the inks sometimes destroyed the paper, there are books which really had holes where the ink was applied, this process took decades or even centuries.
Not in all cases such problems showed up, as basically each Monk had his own recipe to create his ink.
No industrial methods were used to control the process and make it reproducible.

Because of their great acidity they also corroded iron and steel nibs quite fast.
Such inks are still on the market, calligraphers use them with their dip nibs because the performance of these inks is still unmatched. The line definitions are razor sharp and they behave just awesome.
But you can´t use such IG inks in FPs, just as you can’t use India ink in FPs.

In the second half of the last century ink manufacturers developed these new FP IG inks trying to preserve the advantages of IG inks without their disadvantages.
Basically they reduced the IG potion and industrially controlled the process.

And imo they did a really good job.

But you know how it is, if the reputation of something is already damaged (no matter if people distinguish between dip ink, ancient ink, modern FP ink) it is difficult to restore it.

These days also many ink designers (one man shows) came up with their own IG inks.
But to be honest I would be careful about these inks which are mixed by somebody in the basement.

Therefor I only recommended you ones which are imo safe and come from trustworthy companies.

I also remember that the color changes after it dries so that might be one of the reasons why people don’t use them more despite the good characteristics.

I will start off with the Pelikan 4001 and go from there. Thank you for your expertise. I’m really happy I learned something so useful today.


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[Chrissy]

I'm a fan of Diamine Chocolate Brown and Macassar.

I tend to not use any inks that are labelled as containing Iron Gall, mainly because I don't need the permanency and they are more tricky to clean out if you leave them in pens for long periods, as I do.

[azkid]

FYI, I updated my post above with pics of Diamine Macassar on that made in Egypt notebook I mentioned. Here are some other pen/ink tests on the same.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180615/bf1a579cab530a0a3198a4f1821dbf61.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180615/c8966e40cfa2af409c03982857e6751d.jpg

If this were a bit heavier paper it would probably have zero show through.

Prices for Clairefontaine notebooks aren't too bad but pretty sure there are less expensive options too.

[Analogriter]

FYI, I updated my post above with pics of Diamine Macassar on that made in Egypt notebook I mentioned. Here are some other pen/ink tests on the same.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180615/bf1a579cab530a0a3198a4f1821dbf61.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180615/c8966e40cfa2af409c03982857e6751d.jpg

If this were a bit heavier paper it would probably have zero show through.

Prices for Clairefontaine notebooks aren't too bad but pretty sure there are less expensive options too.

Thanks, this is very helpful.

[Medieval]

Diamine Saddle brown and Diamine Damson[partly purple] have a good balance between clarity and being only moderately saturated.

[adhoc]

This is easier to solve with paper than ink I think. Americans like to point out "black n' red" notebooks as super cheap, very fountain pen friendly paper. I don't know where those are available in the USA, but supposedly they're easily available from a number of places. Rhodia/Clairefontaine over here is like 2,5 EUR, which is really quite cheap, so I just use that. You could perhaps bulk buy that paper, without VAT you bring the price down to 2 EUR per notebook of really quality paper.

If you really want to solve this with ink, I'd start with Pelikan 4001 and Waterman inks, like others have suggested. There's a guy on ebay (scotland stationery shop or something like that) that has ink samples for real cheap with super low shipping.

Ink samples on the cheap: https://www.ebay.com/usr/stationeryshop-scotland?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2754

[SIR]

You might like to try Montblanc's Oyster Grey - it is a fairly light grey, tends towards being drier than wetter, and is also reasonably quick drying.

Try KWZ inks too, they tend to be drier and quick drying too.

[bluefeathers]

Sailor Doyou is an almost-black brown that may behave well.

[KKay]

I have a brown-gray ink from Papier Plume called Pecan. With a EF nib it did good on cheap paper. I've never tried Toffee Brown, but I do have GvFC Hazelnut brown, and I find it to be very well behaved. It is highly legible too, more so than Pecan. The inks I mentioned are easy to clean. Noodler's-Walnut is another nice brown, if you want something cheaper with water resistance. Oh, I just thought about Dromgoole's-Chisholm Trail. I have had that on my wish list for quite some time. I adore that ink. It is made by Noodler's for Dromgoole's. I do know that Vanness sells it. I got a large sample of it after it came out as the new ink a year or two ago. (I forget which now) As far as gray, I like Noodler's-Lexington Gray. It is bulletproof so it will require more frequent cleaning. Never let permanent inks dry in your pen, or you will be sorry. Another gray that I love comes from Papier Plume-Oyster Grey. I found it to be well behaved, and lovely. I cannot remember about bleed through though. All I had was a small sample of it. I plan to get that one in the future. I have to finish Iroshizuku-Fuyu syogun first. I like that ink, but it is a bit light, especially with a fine nib. So I can't recommend that one.

[Lady Onogaro]

Hi,

I know you are looking for inks that work well on cheap paper, but since someone else mentioned them:

Both Office Depot and Amazon carry Black 'n Red. Here's the link for Amazon's Black 'n Red choices: https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=black+n+red+notebook

Miquelrius is supposed to be good, too. They can sometimes be found at Barnes & Noble, but they are at Amazon, too: https://www.amazon.com/Miquelrius-11-75-Wirebound-Notebook-6-Subject/dp/B009E6XW6U/ref=sr_1_38?ie=UTF8&qid=1531631032&sr=8-38&keywords=fountain+pen+friendly+paper