PDA

View Full Version : Why Would Anyone . . .



Paddler
September 22nd, 2018, 04:52 PM
. . . use an ink that is not permanent?

I have many inks and many pens and a great many journals. The inks that formed the non-permanent part of my ink cellar used to be used for writing drafts of stories that would be edited and later used with permanent inks for inclusion in journals. I sometimes used these non-permanent inks to fill my EDC pen. What the hell, the pen was only used for my shirt pocket notebook. What could go wrong with that?

One morning, I was caught in a summer shower while going to my post office box 200 meters from my door and the few drops of rain that fell onto the top of my notebook did an annoying amount of damage to my notes. The rain drops completely obliterated parts of words and numbers that I thought were secure from my ageing memory.

I took all the inks from my cellar that couldn't show permanence in the face of distilled water and poured them down the closest woodchuck hole. All of those nice glass bottles got thrown into the clink (recycle bin).

Pretty colors be damned. Permanence is the reason I write things down.

mhosea
September 22nd, 2018, 05:19 PM
I use Sailor Sei Boku for checks. However, most of what I write by hand is meant to be ephemeral. Often it is of use only at that sitting (e.g. working through a mathematical derivation or proof). If I need it for the longer term, I commit it to an electronic record of some kind.

KKay
September 22nd, 2018, 06:11 PM
Paddler, I too appreciate permanent or at least water resistant (recoverable) inks. Many people care more about color than permanent ink it seems. I like both, but I'm lucky to have some that fit my needs. If I get an ink that has pretty color, I try to avoid those that fade. Most of my inks are fairly saturated. I love lubrication as well with my ink, and shading. Different strokes for different folks, that is what it is all about.

Robert
September 22nd, 2018, 07:44 PM
Forgive my ignorance, but are all/most "permanent" inks IG formulations? I've used some from time to time (signing my will documents, for instance). They certainly can be useful, but can also be a bit of a chore to clean. For most uses, I prefer other easy-to-clean inks.

Paddler
September 22nd, 2018, 08:45 PM
I don't think most permanent inks are IG formulations. Parker and Sheaffer made permanent inks back in the day and the color would wash off, leaving a legible grey behind. I doubt these were IG. Anybody know for sure? Anyway, I have used these inks for years without cleaning the pens and they have given the feeds no clogging problems.

Brilliant Bill
September 23rd, 2018, 01:32 AM
On this, I'm with you.

If I'm going to the trouble and effort of writing something with a fountain pen, or any pen for that matter, I want it to be at least as permanent as the paper it's on. I don't want a few drops of rain to wash away my work, thoughts, lists, ideas, efforts, etc.

A similar experience a few years ago brought me to this point. I was outside making images when a sudden summer thunderstorm popped up. My camera bodies and lenses are weather sealed, the notebook in my front pocket, not so. My photo equipment was fine, but the entries in my notebook turned to mush. So, never again. For my portable notebook and anything else that may see the light of day, I'm using permanent inks. I do have one red pen with Skrip red because once in a while I need a standout point, but it's not being used on anything that may get wet. I also use Bungu Box Silent Night in my Sailor King of Pen and the Pilot 823 because I love the ink. I haven't found it to be permanent, but it is recoverable from water. And those pens don't ever leave the house anyway.

Despite the persistent alarms about what "permanent" inks will do to pens (stain, clog feeds, etc.) I haven't had a single problem. I have a TWSBI Eco dedicated to Baystate Blue, and it was in there for two years with no problems. I recently dumped what was still in it, cleaned it out and refilled with BSB. If it makes a few blue stains inside the plastic barrel, I really don't care. I've found Aurora Black to be a reasonably recoverable black ink, and it's as "well behaved" as any ink could be. I also use Aurora Blue and Blue-Black and I'd expect the same from them. Mostly I'm using Noodles for permanent inks -- Black Eel, Heart of Darkness, Lexington Gray, 54th Mass., El Lawrence and Kung Te Cheng. I've taken to using Sailor Seiboku and Souboku as well as Kiwa Guro. My best black alternative is Platinum Carbon Black, and it never gives me trouble no matter the pen it's in. I use it to address envelopes with a Franklin Christoph music nib. Dead black, a little italic and big enough to be seen by any blind postal worker!

I'm not looking for a woodchuck hole, but I do plan to give away a lot of ink next time I go to a local pen meeting or a pen show. I'll be keeping every drop of my permanent inks.

jar
September 23rd, 2018, 04:10 AM
I can't think of anything I write that needs permanence.

Chrissy
September 23rd, 2018, 04:58 AM
I can't think of anything I write that needs permanence.
That's how I feel. :)

If writing with loads of different colours means not necessarily having permanence then I'm happy as I am. :D None of my current penpals has complained..... yet. :)

Paddler
September 23rd, 2018, 07:50 AM
I can't think of anything I write that needs permanence.

Much of what I write (mostly story drafts) doesn't need permanence either. But if I write something down in my shirt pocket notebook, I would like it to last long enough to jog my memory a day or two later. When the notebook fills, I want to go through and upload some things into my commonplace book. A few lousy raindrops can wash away a digit from a phone number. Holy carp on a cracker! Some of the inks I had were no better than food coloring.

That is all behind me now. Everything not colorfast has gone to entertain the local groundhog.

Deb
September 23rd, 2018, 09:02 AM
I write drafts, for the most part. So long as it survives until I type it up in the blog that's permanent enough for me. Same applies to correspondence. My writing don't need to survive for some future researcher to include in a blockbusting biography.

AzJon
September 23rd, 2018, 09:18 AM
Parker and Sheaffer made permanent inks back in the day and the color would wash off, leaving a legible grey behind.

Sounds like IG to me. That's exactly what happens with both the R&K Salix and Scabiosa. The dye washes out, but the iron oxide remains. You definitely wouldn't find any of the cellulose reactive (Noodler's) or nano-pigment (Sailor) permanent inks from the likes of Parker or Sheaffer, modern or vintage.

bill.davis
September 23rd, 2018, 09:35 PM
That is all behind me now. Everything not colorfast has gone to entertain the local groundhog.

It was your property, of course, but to just pour them out seems very wasteful. Why not give the ink you don’t want away to friends (or people here) that don’t care about permanence? That happens often at our local pen club. Reuse the ink bottles to share ink between home and work, or share among friends. Or heck, even sell the ink you don’t want so you can buy more of what you do want? People would likely be glad to pay shipping at least if you have no pen club/pen friends close by. Please consider it in future if you have ink you do not want.

Paddler
September 24th, 2018, 05:56 AM
That is all behind me now. Everything not colorfast has gone to entertain the local groundhog.

It was your property, of course, but to just pour them out seems very wasteful. Why not give the ink you don’t want away to friends (or people here) that don’t care about permanence? That happens often at our local pen club. Reuse the ink bottles to share ink between home and work, or share among friends. Or heck, even sell the ink you don’t want so you can buy more of what you do want? People would likely be glad to pay shipping at least if you have no pen club/pen friends close by. Please consider it in future if you have ink you do not want.

The real waste occurred when the "ink" was manufactured, packaged, transported, and sold. Paying shipping charges to pass it on would compound the crime. The same goes for pens that don't work properly because of a design flaw that was ignored by the manufacturer. On a broader scale, look at all the junk for sale at flea markets. Somebody actually bought this dreck and now try to sell it to another fool. I know; I bought a lot of junk pens at flea markets. And bought some inks that should have been used for baking. Hell, I could have saved all that money and bought chairs for the standing army.

FredRydr
September 24th, 2018, 06:03 AM
...On a broader scale, look at all the junk for sale at flea markets. Somebody actually bought this dreck and now try to sell it to another fool....

Yes, and yet, consider what is being foisted on consumers today and destined for flea markets, landfills and the oceans. (Is this what we call off topic?)

Paddler
September 24th, 2018, 06:10 AM
...On a broader scale, look at all the junk for sale at flea markets. Somebody actually bought this dreck and now try to sell it to another fool....

Yes, and yet, consider what is being foisted on consumers today and destined for flea markets, landfills and the oceans. (Is this what we call off topic?)

Yup. It is a tangent covered by "artistic license" or "writers' latitude".

catbert
September 24th, 2018, 08:51 AM
I took all the inks from my cellar that couldn't show permanence in the face of distilled water and poured them down the closest woodchuck hole.


Everything not colorfast has gone to entertain the local groundhog.

Must be some colourful wildlife in your neck of the woods.

bill.davis
September 24th, 2018, 09:46 AM
The real waste occurred when the "ink" was manufactured, packaged, transported, and sold. Paying shipping charges to pass it on would compound the crime. The same goes for pens that don't work properly because of a design flaw that was ignored by the manufacturer. On a broader scale, look at all the junk for sale at flea markets. Somebody actually bought this dreck and now try to sell it to another fool. I know; I bought a lot of junk pens at flea markets. And bought some inks that should have been used for baking. Hell, I could have saved all that money and bought chairs for the standing army.

Oh well, your loss will be our gain. More inks for us! I hope you’re not a pen club member, though; they’ll drum you out with that attitude and for wasting perfectly good ink. Better not tell them. Oh wait, you already did here in this virtual pen club. Oops. That might not have been wise.

Glad to hear you don’t like vintage pens either; that’s just more for the rest of us “fools”! Hell, half the fun is learning how to fix them up good as new! Even the very damaged ones find new life as parts donors. Little to nothing is wasted in the landfills. Again, your loss will be our gain.

At this rate, you’ll be using just disposable advertising ballpoints before you know it. Somebody’s got to, I guess. Your loss will be our gain again. Thanks for doing that for us!

Paddler
September 25th, 2018, 06:45 AM
The real waste occurred when the "ink" was manufactured, packaged, transported, and sold. Paying shipping charges to pass it on would compound the crime. The same goes for pens that don't work properly because of a design flaw that was ignored by the manufacturer. On a broader scale, look at all the junk for sale at flea markets. Somebody actually bought this dreck and now try to sell it to another fool. I know; I bought a lot of junk pens at flea markets. And bought some inks that should have been used for baking. Hell, I could have saved all that money and bought chairs for the standing army.

Oh well, your loss will be our gain. More inks for us! I hope you’re not a pen club member, though; they’ll drum you out with that attitude and for wasting perfectly good ink. Better not tell them. Oh wait, you already did here in this virtual pen club. Oops. That might not have been wise.

Glad to hear you don’t like vintage pens either; that’s just more for the rest of us “fools”! Hell, half the fun is learning how to fix them up good as new! Even the very damaged ones find new life as parts donors. Little to nothing is wasted in the landfills. Again, your loss will be our gain.

At this rate, you’ll be using just disposable advertising ballpoints before you know it. Somebody’s got to, I guess. Your loss will be our gain again. Thanks for doing that for us!
I use many vintage inks in the permanent category. There are perfectly usable permanent Quink and Skrip colors available at flea markets. Noodlers bulletproof, and semi-bulletproof, inks work well and have given me no trouble. I had to find all this out the hard way by wasting money on ink and paper by testing. I was almost finished with this project by the time reliable ink reviews were available.

By the way, these inks are also perfectly usable with dip pens. Nearly any vintage dip nib will work if you know how to tweak it. For dipping, sumi ink is wonderful and can be ground on a suzuri to perfect flow characteristics. It and homemade walnut ink are both water and fade resistant enough for nearly any purpose.

As for pens, I use vintage pens almost exclusively. Granted, it was fun learning to restore all those wacky filling mechanisms and mule-hauling all those poorly made nibs through a grinding and smoothing process. But you can't beat a good Sheaffer Valiant or Vigilant pen and it is futile to try.

Edited to add: I don't join clubs. As far as being drummed out of one goes: "Pleeeeeeeze, Br'er Fox. Don't throw me in dat briar patch!"

FredRydr
September 25th, 2018, 07:24 AM
...By the way, these inks are also perfectly usable with dip pens. Nearly any vintage dip nib will work if you know how to tweak it. For dipping, sumi ink is wonderful and can be ground on a suzuri to perfect flow characteristics. It and homemade walnut ink are both water and fade resistant enough for nearly any purpose....
I find fountain pen inks are usually a PITA when it comes to my antique dip pens with gold nibs. All too often, those inks fail to leave a sufficient coat on the underside of the nib to supply the slit, failing to adhere by forming small droplets and requiring too-frequent dips to keep on writing.

What is a suzuri? I guess I should go look it up and answer it myself. :) Looked up (http://media.janm.org/collections/janm_2004.1.184_2_a.jpg) - Ah, I grew up with suzuris around the house; my mother was an artist and for a period was heavily in to using them with the ink sticks, but with brushes, not nibs.

As for the groundhogs, please come and pour your unwanted ink down my groundhog burrows if it drives them away or sends them to gopher heaven. (If anyone loves groundhogs, come and adopt mine and take them home with you.)

Ahriman4891
September 25th, 2018, 01:51 PM
For me, both have their place: I use permanent inks for anything important, but they are usually not that pretty. For my horribly amateur calligraphy, I like fancy colorful inks.

Paddler
September 26th, 2018, 05:22 AM
...By the way, these inks are also perfectly usable with dip pens. Nearly any vintage dip nib will work if you know how to tweak it. For dipping, sumi ink is wonderful and can be ground on a suzuri to perfect flow characteristics. It and homemade walnut ink are both water and fade resistant enough for nearly any purpose....
I find fountain pen inks are usually a PITA when it comes to my antique dip pens with gold nibs. All too often, those inks fail to leave a sufficient coat on the underside of the nib to supply the slit, failing to adhere by forming small droplets and requiring too-frequent dips to keep on writing.

What is a suzuri? I guess I should go look it up and answer it myself. :) Looked up (http://media.janm.org/collections/janm_2004.1.184_2_a.jpg) - Ah, I grew up with suzuris around the house; my mother was an artist and for a period was heavily in to using them with the ink sticks, but with brushes, not nibs.

As for the groundhogs, please come and pour your unwanted ink down my groundhog burrows if it drives them away or sends them to gopher heaven. (If anyone loves groundhogs, come and adopt mine and take them home with you.)

A nib has to be clean clean clean to start with. Clean it with lighter fluid or paint thinner to de-grease it first. Then scrub it with dish soap on a cotton swab. Then lick it. The ink will stick. You are aiming for nib creep here.

There are many colors of sumi sticks available now, not just black. The ones I have are all water resistant when dry. It actually depends on the glue used to make the stick.

I spent many summers trying to run off woodchucks from my back yard and garden. I was unable to do it. The only way I could ever rid myself of them was to provide them with alternate quarters . . . in a Crockpot. The flavor is much like that of fox squirrel.

Wuddus
September 26th, 2018, 05:23 AM
Why non-permanent? Because my shirts need to last longer than my grocery list does.

I don't "journal", nor take valuable notes out in the rain. The stuff I write that needs to last or endure weather (like addressing envelopes), is so infrequent that it's really not worth filling a pen with, and then having it clog up because it's not being used. I'll stick to using a ballpoint or a dip pen for those occasional tasks.

Paddler
September 26th, 2018, 02:11 PM
So, if you had a house fire and the fire department came and, in the process of saving your digs, hosed down your journals and your commonplace book, would you still have your writing or would you have some nice books full of modern "art"? Some of the inks I have tried, when exposed to a soak in a notebook, will bleed through to two or three adjacent pages, leaving a real indecipherable mess worse than a palimpsest. If you are going to test these inks for water resistance, you have to do it inside a book.

Jon Szanto
September 26th, 2018, 02:19 PM
I've lost many a friend, I've had loved ones and family members pass away, and I've managed to go on with life. In spite of those losses, I've had to get up every day and I choose to do it in a positive manner. If I can survive those losses and continue a full life, why would I worry about some words on a page?

Nothing is truly permanent. Be here now.

Wuddus
September 26th, 2018, 06:47 PM
So, if you had a house fire and the fire department came and, in the process of saving your digs, hosed down your journals and your commonplace book, would you still have your writing or would you have some nice books full of modern "art"? Some of the inks I have tried, when exposed to a soak in a notebook, will bleed through to two or three adjacent pages, leaving a real indecipherable mess worse than a palimpsest. If you are going to test these inks for water resistance, you have to do it inside a book.

Seriously? If my house caught fire, and everything was water and smoke damaged, I would have far more important things to worry about than what I'd scribbled in a book. If that was a priority for me, I'd hope one of my family or friends would rattle some sense into me.

KKay
September 26th, 2018, 06:51 PM
What if you were writing the best book of your life then? You wouldn't want to do that on a computer. If you wrote with fountain pen ink that isn't permanent it would be asking for trouble. I have a journal I've been working on with important info. I rarely write with anything but permanent ink in that book. It would be a lot of hard research down the drain if I lost it all. To each his own. If you don't like permanent inks, don't use them. It is just as simple as that.

AzJon
September 26th, 2018, 06:55 PM
So, if you had a house fire and the fire department came and, in the process of saving your digs, hosed down your journals and your commonplace book, would you still have your writing or would you have some nice books full of modern "art"? Some of the inks I have tried, when exposed to a soak in a notebook, will bleed through to two or three adjacent pages, leaving a real indecipherable mess worse than a palimpsest. If you are going to test these inks for water resistance, you have to do it inside a book.

Had a friend who had a house fire a few years ago. At 67, she lost everything. If it didn't burn, the smoke damage was so bad that it was functionally destroyed. She lost every single physical memory of her past.

Beyond the fact that nothing is permanent, the second fact is that no one really cares. Having gone to estate sales for years, I have witnessed collection after collection of notebooks and newspapers unceremoniously tossed into the bin. Grandchildren given their deceased grandparents things rummage for some material items, a pocket knife, a decanter, whatever, but never the books. Those get tossed out. Or taken, never read, forgotten, and eventually found again, damaged beyond reason after poor storage in a shed for a decade or two.

Write however you wish, with whatever ink you please, but back off others that choose to use inks that are colorful or sparkly or shiny because it makes them happy right now and right now is the only time promised you.

FredRydr
September 26th, 2018, 08:11 PM
So, if you had a house fire and the fire department came....
And then there's always the issue of fire-resistant ink.

Kulprit
September 26th, 2018, 08:33 PM
Forgive my ignorance, but are all/most "permanent" inks IG formulations? I've used some from time to time (signing my will documents, for instance). They certainly can be useful, but can also be a bit of a chore to clean. For most uses, I prefer other easy-to-clean inks.

No. At one time that was the case, but very few permanent inks these days are IG.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Kulprit
September 26th, 2018, 08:34 PM
Parker and Sheaffer made permanent inks back in the day and the color would wash off, leaving a legible grey behind.

Sounds like IG to me. That's exactly what happens with both the R&K Salix and Scabiosa. The dye washes out, but the iron oxide remains. You definitely wouldn't find any of the cellulose reactive (Noodler's) or nano-pigment (Sailor) permanent inks from the likes of Parker or Sheaffer, modern or vintage.

I can’t speak for vintage Quink, but vintage “permanent” Skrip was not an IG.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Jon Szanto
September 26th, 2018, 08:38 PM
What if you were writing the best book of your life then? You wouldn't want to do that on a computer. If you wrote with fountain pen ink that isn't permanent it would be asking for trouble. I have a journal I've been working on with important info. I rarely write with anything but permanent ink in that book. It would be a lot of hard research down the drain if I lost it all. To each his own. If you don't like permanent inks, don't use them. It is just as simple as that.

Be careful about using phrases like that. If you really believe that things you have written are so indellibly (hehe) important that you can't possibly risk them to impermanent inks, but you take no further precautions, it's hard to take seriously. If it were research or a screenplay or *any* item that is of great value, it behooves you to store that information in mutliple formats and in multiple storage systems. Redundancy is key in safety, so the pages of the journal should be scanned or photographed and the images archived both in local and remote storage.

Anything less than redundant storage - as unromantic as that is - is simply inadequate for "important info".

Kulprit
September 26th, 2018, 08:47 PM
Most of my writing falls into one of two categories: work writing and personal writing. For neither is permanence required. Everything I write at work (well, just about) ends up being transcribed digitally; I really only handwrite things because I find it more pleasurable (and more engaging) than typing. The inks I choose are either purpose-driven (reds or greens to stand off the page; low-feathering inks for use on copy paper) or are chosen specifically to give my eyes a break from the walls of black or conservative-blue text I’d otherwise be forced to look at.

My personal writing it mostly just me playing with pens. Nothing of significance is recorded. It’s highly unlikely that any of that will ever be read, even by future me.

While I do own and use many permanent inks, that quality is almost always incidental to my primary reason for choosing that ink. The one exception to this is Noodler’s Heart of Darkness, which I use for addressing all envelopes and parcels.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

KKay
September 26th, 2018, 08:52 PM
I am not writing a book, or a screenplay. If I were I would not want to put it on my computer for a hacker to acquire. I do have some things on my computer, plus a lot of time consuming hand written entries. I have also printed out some files, and have copies of them given to a couple of friends as well. Most of my notes are done by hand. It would be something of interest to my grown kids. They already know about it. I told them about it already, and I know at least one of my kids wants the journal. My other journals would not be of interest to anyone whatsoever.

Jon Szanto
September 26th, 2018, 09:09 PM
I am not writing a book, or a screenplay. If I were I would not want to put it on my computer for a hacker to acquire. I do have some things on my computer, plus a lot of time consuming hand written entries. I have also printed out some files, and have copies of them given to a couple of friends as well. Most of my notes are done by hand. It would be something of interest to my grown kids. They already know about it. I told them about it already, and I know at least one of my kids wants the journal. My other journals would not be of interest to anyone whatsoever.

KKay, I understand the personal nature of *your* particular writings (mine would pretty much all fall into that category as well). I was, though, talking about the larger issue raised by the OP and your notion that it was all a pretty simple choice. When the discussion branched out into the other tragedies that could befall a written document, that is when I mentioned other storage methods. I've had to do archival work for a composer I knew and performed with, so I'm familiar with archiving stratetgies for printed word, visual media and recorded sound. With irreplaceable items, you simply can't be too careful.

Our musings? I think we can be careful without being obsessive, and you sound like you've taken reasonable precautions for future family generations.

KKay
September 26th, 2018, 10:14 PM
Jon, I would say that most people want the beautiful ink even if it is not permanent. That is fine by me, it is their choice. Luckily we do have a wide range of inks to pick from. These days because of my journal especially, I choose more permanent inks. I do like to switch out colors though, as I get bored with the same colors all the time. I would never throw ink out though, I would give it away or sell it if I didn't want it anymore. I have passed on a lot of ink, simply because it wasn't at the very least water resistant. I do have several permanent inks, and lots of fun colors to play with. (many of them are not water resistant, but I decided that I would just about stop increasing that category) Some of my ink is just water resistant, and that is fine for most things I write. Thankfully there are some inks that are quite appealing that are permanent. I haven't purchased any ink in a long time. There is one at the top of my list though, and I have tried it. It is a pretty color, permanent and reasonably priced. I've wanted that ink for a year now, but I still don't have it. (Not yet anyway) :D

Jon Szanto
September 26th, 2018, 10:18 PM
Kay, one thing I'd mention in passing is KWZ. They have a number of iron gall inks in their lineup that are quite colorful - blues, greens, reds, purples (not sure about others). They behave well and are quite permanent. I'm pretty sure Vanness Pens carries their entire line so you could try some samples. It might be a good solution to having some color but also permanence. My only uses for waterproof (and, I suppose permanent) is for correspondence where the envelope or postcard might get wet. For that kind of use I'm ok with blues and blacks.

KKay
September 26th, 2018, 10:27 PM
Thank you Jon. I have about 4 of their regular inks, but no IG ink yet. I have started trying out some modern IG ink lately, but I have not purchased any. I have tried one of the Platinum Classic IG colors, but it didn't send me. I will be exploring the modern IG inks, and KWZ will be a brand I plan to try, thanks again.

Paddler
September 27th, 2018, 07:00 AM
Most of you guys are way too humble. If you don't have lives worth reading about, dammit get them! Twain said to live in such a way that, when you come to die, even the undertaker is sorry.

Someday, a couple of your descendants are going to page through the family photo album and find your pictiure:
"Whozat?"
"Caption says it was our great uncle Jim"
"What'd he do?"
"Damfino. There is a headstone with a name and two dates on it in the boneyard. That is all anybody knows."
"Well, I guess we don't need this picture anymore, do we?"


I read about some villagers in China (I may have read it here) who, when a house caught fire and threatened to spread, they would take their bundles of family records and drop them down the well on their way to safety. They could fish them out and dry them later because the records were written on good paper with sumi ink.

AzJon
September 27th, 2018, 08:35 AM
If it were research or a screenplay or *any* item that is of great value, it behooves you to store that information in mutliple formats and in multiple storage systems. Redundancy is key in safety

Precisely. Permanent inks are only so useful. Back ups for your back ups are the only way to ensure some degree of safety. Computer servers are based around the country for redundancy for exactly that reason.

Beyond that. I you really want something light-fast and waterproof, you should stick to using a pencil. Graphite will last a loooong time on a page assuming it isn't erased. But it is totally waterproof and light-fast.

Jon Szanto
September 27th, 2018, 10:58 AM
Most of you guys are way too humble. If you don't have lives worth reading about, dammit get them!

That may be your path, but it is not mine.

azkid
September 27th, 2018, 11:32 AM
For me the answer is part risk management and part philosphy.

To address the risk of lost writings, one must assess the impact of loss of those writings and the likelihood of various threats they face being realized: fire, flood, loss, water damage, etc. And then choose protections for the most impactful and most likely scenarios.

The likelihood of flood deep enough to reach my notebooks is highly unlikely. Fire is in the realm of possible. Spills are highly likely but would only damage some pages. I can take steps to prevent or react to this possibility.

Losing my work bullet journal would suck but isn't the end of the world. If everything burned or flooded my co-workers would forgive me for "losing my brain (notebook)". If the impact would be higher, I would scan the critical pages, use waterproof ink, etc.

Nothing else I am writing, if lost, would be a big deal. Otherwise, sure, I would choose permanent, water resistant ink, scan pages, store safely, etc.

I have been thinking lately, as I contemplate mortality and progeny, how little I knew about my parents' and grandparents' lives. I got only a handful of stories along the way.

I wished I could have known more. If only they had left journals or biographies behind or at least told me more.

In thinking about what to share with my daughter, I came to the conclusion that the story of my life is for me, alone, to experience, from which to derive such things as enjoyment, suffering, and wisdom.

AzJon
September 27th, 2018, 12:15 PM
Most of you guys are way too humble. If you don't have lives worth reading about, dammit get them! Twain said to live in such a way that, when you come to die, even the undertaker is sorry.

Or we aren't so full of ourselves we need to write our exploits down in a way that allows for fabrication.

I find that those most ready to boast of their accomplishments are those who have accomplished the least.

Brilliant Bill
September 27th, 2018, 01:59 PM
Or we aren't so full of ourselves we need to write our exploits down in a way that allows for fabrication.

I find that those most ready to boast of their accomplishments are those who have accomplished the least.


Lying and accomplishment are hardly the measures of literary worth. Some of the most compelling stories I know come from prison inmates -- people not generally known for accomplishment in societal terms. Tragedy, failure and striving are often the most potent aspect of worthy stories.

And to suggest people fill their "journals" with self-aggrandizing lies reveals a deep misunderstanding of that process.

AzJon
September 27th, 2018, 02:39 PM
Or we aren't so full of ourselves we need to write our exploits down in a way that allows for fabrication.

I find that those most ready to boast of their accomplishments are those who have accomplished the least.


Lying and accomplishment are hardly the measures of literary worth. Some of the most compelling stories I know come from prison inmates -- people not generally known for accomplishment in societal terms. Tragedy, failure and striving are often the most potent aspect of worthy stories.

And to suggest people fill their "journals" with self-aggrandizing lies reveals a deep misunderstanding of that process.

If you are writing a story that is personal and for your eyes only, perhaps the truth will come through. If you are writing with the intent of other people reading it, the details can be skewed. Writing it because you want your future-kin to read it, and writing it in that way, allows for more fudging than if someone happens to be journaling for themselves and intend on keeping it from others.

Misunderstanding the process is writing adventure novels for your children with you as the hero/heroine over writing the agonizing truths and events of your life as a therapeutic outlet.

Chrissy
September 27th, 2018, 03:18 PM
I find that those most ready to boast of their accomplishments are those who have accomplished the least.

I agree with you on that point. :)

mhosea
September 27th, 2018, 04:18 PM
I thought this thread was about whether or not it was vitally important to be able to read something you wrote after spilling your drink on it.

Jon Szanto
September 27th, 2018, 04:22 PM
I thought this thread was about whether or not it was vitally important to be able to read something you wrote after spilling your drink on it.

I believe we are currently in the " . . . " phase of the OP. Or the title. Or something.

Typical thread drift, exacerbated by climate change.

AzJon
September 27th, 2018, 05:12 PM
I thought this thread was about whether or not it was vitally important to be able to read something you wrote after spilling your drink on it.

What if you only use eyedropper pens so you can only write with your beverage? Now, where did I leave my notes written in coca-cola...

azkid
September 27th, 2018, 05:29 PM
Iced latte ink in my case.

FredRydr
September 27th, 2018, 08:02 PM
I thought this thread was about whether or not it was vitally important to be able to read something you wrote after spilling your drink on it.
...while surrounded by fire.

Brilliant Bill
September 27th, 2018, 09:24 PM
Or we aren't so full of ourselves we need to write our exploits down in a way that allows for fabrication.

I find that those most ready to boast of their accomplishments are those who have accomplished the least.


Lying and accomplishment are hardly the measures of literary worth. Some of the most compelling stories I know come from prison inmates -- people not generally known for accomplishment in societal terms. Tragedy, failure and striving are often the most potent aspect of worthy stories.

And to suggest people fill their "journals" with self-aggrandizing lies reveals a deep misunderstanding of that process.

If you are writing a story that is personal and for your eyes only, perhaps the truth will come through. If you are writing with the intent of other people reading it, the details can be skewed. Writing it because you want your future-kin to read it, and writing it in that way, allows for more fudging than if someone happens to be journaling for themselves and intend on keeping it from others.

Misunderstanding the process is writing adventure novels for your children with you as the hero/heroine over writing the agonizing truths and events of your life as a therapeutic outlet.

I really don't know why I bother!

Jon Szanto
September 27th, 2018, 09:55 PM
I really don't know why I bother!

Please don't allow one or two rebuttals to your thoughts to dissuade you. I'm typing this to let you know that there were elements in your responses that felt strongly right with at least one person (me). Especially your last statement regarding the misunderstanding of journaling. Some of the most insightful writing I've read was contained in published journals, and it was almost always because it seemed to true to the nature of the author.

Brilliant Bill
September 28th, 2018, 01:00 AM
I really don't know why I bother!

Please don't allow one or two rebuttals to your thoughts to dissuade you. I'm typing this to let you know that there were elements in your responses that felt strongly right with at least one person (me). Especially your last statement regarding the misunderstanding of journaling. Some of the most insightful writing I've read was contained in published journals, and it was almost always because it seemed to true to the nature of the author.

Thanks, Jon.

AzJon
September 28th, 2018, 09:52 AM
Or we aren't so full of ourselves we need to write our exploits down in a way that allows for fabrication.

I find that those most ready to boast of their accomplishments are those who have accomplished the least.


Lying and accomplishment are hardly the measures of literary worth. Some of the most compelling stories I know come from prison inmates -- people not generally known for accomplishment in societal terms. Tragedy, failure and striving are often the most potent aspect of worthy stories.

And to suggest people fill their "journals" with self-aggrandizing lies reveals a deep misunderstanding of that process.

If you are writing a story that is personal and for your eyes only, perhaps the truth will come through. If you are writing with the intent of other people reading it, the details can be skewed. Writing it because you want your future-kin to read it, and writing it in that way, allows for more fudging than if someone happens to be journaling for themselves and intend on keeping it from others.

Misunderstanding the process is writing adventure novels for your children with you as the hero/heroine over writing the agonizing truths and events of your life as a therapeutic outlet.

I really don't know why I bother!

I'm not disagreeing with you, Bill. I'm just saying that, as a definition, I wasn't using "accomplishments" in any particular light. Being "accomplished" by societal standards is highly subjective. To some that means being rich, to others that means helping others, and that is a personal thing. No, the accomplisments I mean, specifically, are just the tasks performed and achieved day to day. I do not mean to imply that journal writing is worthless or that the process is some attempt at intentionally lying. I never said that.

What I take issue with, and this is more towards certain individuals, is the writing down with the intent of future descendants reading about your life. Maybe you decide to gloss over or make less harsh the events of your life to make it fit a better narrative. I've met plenty of people who tell stories about event, where I was also involved, where they make themselves much more of the hero than they really were.

I strongly believe in keeping a journal. Write everything, but don't share it. It is for no one but you. Which, back to the original point of this thread, does not require the use of permanent anything to keep notes. Have a good day and decide a bright, sunny ink is the right choice? Go for it. The journal is for you. Bad day? Use that solemn ink. What you write should only matter to you and no one else. I know writers and poets and doctors and everything in between that keep journals. Not one of them would willingly hand it over for someone else to read. The mere thought of someone else handling let alone reading their journals causes great distress.

I apologize. I forget forums exist on quips, witticisms, and snide off-hand comments. I also apologize for getting fired up over one user making a direct attack on anyone that chooses to use their pens differently than they do and that our lives are are "too humble" to be written or read about, apparently.

azkid
September 28th, 2018, 10:55 AM
So, basically, I am a boring, lazy loser who should become a self-aggrandizing liar by telling my children anything about me and an idiot for not using permanent ink for everything. Got it. Glad we cleared that up. Thanks, friends.

I think I am going to go not pour ink on some prairie dogs now.

What a great thread!

AzJon
September 28th, 2018, 11:17 AM
So, basically, I am a boring, lazy loser who should become a self-aggrandizing liar by telling my children anything about me and an idiot for not using permanent ink for everything. Got it. Glad we cleared that up. Thanks, friends.

I think I am going to go not pour ink on some prairie dogs now.

What a great thread!

I believe that is the gist, yes.

Wuddus
September 28th, 2018, 12:05 PM
I have never read any journals about anyone else's life, as I have been too busy living my own. That is what I wish for, for future generations of the Wuddus family. If there's anything I want to tell them, I'll tell them to their face. If they're not around yet, and they never get chance to know me, then I'm not expecting to be relevant to them.

Jon Szanto
September 28th, 2018, 12:26 PM
Everyone matters. It doesn't make you a lying scumbag if you put down your thoughts and feelings for family members and loved ones to consider, no matter how far down the generational chain. Write from your heart and they will appreciate it.

Yes, I'm broadening out beyond just a journal because the motivation of people has been called into question. It needn't be so.

Writing a 'Last Leter' When You Are Healthy (https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/07/well/family/writing-a-last-letter-before-you-get-sick.html)

junglejim
September 28th, 2018, 12:27 PM
I LOVE colorful inks. I live a very boring, uninteresting life. I've never saved anyone's life (that I know of), haven't put out any fires, other than the ocassional squabbles at the office, and haven't run or ever will run for a public office. My entries in my journal consist of weather observations (time, date, temperature, wind direction and speed), what I bought at the grocery store, and my daily battles with the ever-present weeds in the front/back yard. Couldn't care less about leaving any writings to posterity, so I choose what inks I like. Whoever is dumb enough to read my journal would probably die from boredom. (Which probably makes a good case for the paper shredder, to save future lives!)

The only time I need water resistance is when taking samples in the field, and then I use a plain old ballpoint pen, blue ink.

All the Best.

Paddler
September 28th, 2018, 12:33 PM
As my mother's nanny used to say: GEEEZOW PETE !!!!

I keep pitchin' to you guys and you keep missin'. I think you are using a glove with a hole in it. You can make the most mundane, commonplace event worth reading about if you filter the description through your idiolect. It is your idiolect that makes the journal worth reading and is worthy of permanent ink. It is the informal nature of the narrative rather than the stilted formality that your high school English teacher wanted that gives the refreshing read.

I just read some of my own stories and checked them for lies. There aren't any. If you describe an event properly, you don't need hyperbole.

AzJon
September 28th, 2018, 12:47 PM
Yes, I'm broadening out beyond just a journal because the motivation of people has been called into question. It needn't be so.




The entire inception of the thread is calling the motivation of people into question and dogging them for not using permanent ink.

You will note that my initial comment, that was mis-read, reinterpreted, and shoved back, was about "boasting" or, as Paddler has put it, "filter the description through your idiolect," had nothing to do with motives or reasons to write (or what to write with).

Do as you will, just as Paddler will continue to be dumbfounded, as I will continue to find writing for one's unborn kin as fanciful and being broadly unimportant, and as everyone will carry on, just the same, as before they ever clicked on this wildly out of control thread.

Now excuse me, I have a very boring, non-permanent existence to attend to.

Jon Szanto
September 28th, 2018, 12:56 PM
The entire inception of the thread is calling the motivation of people into question and dogging them for not using permanent ink.

Jon, with the greatest of respect (and shared name!), I simply didn't read it as such and it didn't come across to me as harsh as it has to you.

Yes, I disagree with a good portion of Paddler's assertions but I am comfortable enough with mine to not read it as an attack. My motivation in the thread is to address the fact that we can all have a spectrum of viewpoints on the matter of personal history and the sincerety and honesty necessary for first-person writing. I'd never ask anyone to change how they choose their own course, only that they be respectful of other opinions. I find your passionate thoughts on these matters, as well as those of people like Wuddus, to be of interest. If they interest me, I can't imagine why they wouldn't be of interest to future generations of your own family, but that is still only my take on it, and you will and should do as you see fit.

Wuddus
September 28th, 2018, 02:08 PM
The entire inception of the thread is calling the motivation of people into question and dogging them for not using permanent ink.

Jon, with the greatest of respect (and shared name!), I simply didn't read it as such and it didn't come across to me as harsh as it has to you.

Yes, I disagree with a good portion of Paddler's assertions but I am comfortable enough with mine to not read it as an attack. My motivation in the thread is to address the fact that we can all have a spectrum of viewpoints on the matter of personal history and the sincerety and honesty necessary for first-person writing. I'd never ask anyone to change how they choose their own course, only that they be respectful of other opinions. I find your passionate thoughts on these matters, as well as those of people like Wuddus, to be of interest. If they interest me, I can't imagine why they wouldn't be of interest to future generations of your own family, but that is still only my take on it, and you will and should do as you see fit.

I believe my views on passing on information and views, is fashioned by my views on receiving it. If I am having a conversation with someone face to face, I can challenge a view, ask for clarification, offer something in return... and all the while there is a context, it is a moment in the present, and it has relevance. Should I pick up a journal, no matter how well it is written, it is a poor substitute for that conversation. I do not feel "engaged" in someone else's journal, and I think that colours my views about writing my own.

There is ONE written piece which I may consider leaving for someone else, and that will be written with a dip pen, and yes the ink will be permanent - though not as a result of this discussion. Everything else that I do day to day will be non-permanent, and permanent ink will not find its way into any of my fountain pens.

If we were to sit down over a beer, I am sure I would have much to share that would be of interest. However, I have no desire to do that with the other person not being present, which is what journalling effectively is. I have no presumption that anyone else should value that written work in future, and I would rather spend my time in the present, rather than try to project my presence forward to another era. Dedicating many many hours of my short existence here, working on one document which someone else may never read, simply holds no merit for me, whether anyone in days to come would find it interesting or not.

Aside from the journal that I'm NOT going to write, there is nothing which needs to be permanent. The marks I make on paper matter in the moment, or maybe in a week or two, but thereafter are worthless to me. If anything, I'd prefer to have inks that only last a few months, and then fade to nothing, so I can use those books again.

mhosea
September 28th, 2018, 05:55 PM
I keep pitchin' to you guys and you keep missin'. I think you are using a glove with a hole in it.

Just one baseball metaphor per paragraph, please. ;)

(Hey, I'm trying to lighten it up a little in here.)

welch
October 5th, 2018, 04:58 PM
I never use the current "bulletproof" inks that bond with paper.

- Started writing with "ink pens" around 1957 or 1958, using a Sheaffer school pen with washable cartridge ink. Why? Our parents graduated high school around 1940, carrying memories of ink-sacs that burst in class, of spills -- on clothes or carpets. When I gave Dad a fountain pen ten or fifteen years ago, he told about a buddy who had left a fountain pen in his shirt pocket and then road along in the back-seat of a dive-bomber to get flight pay. "That pen exploded the first time the pilot pulled out". (Ball-points, as best I can tell, were sold as the clean replacement to liquid ink.) We all used washable Sheaffer or Parker ink, and you can find it, still, on EBay.

- Old washable ink-writing will last a long time. I have junior-high essays from 1962. Easily readable, although the paper is not as fresh as 55 years ago. Check your paper: will it last 60 or 80 years? If not, then the ink is irrelevant.

- Protection from spills? Just take reasonable precautions. We wrote on 16-or-20-pound three-hole paper, and put the pages into a notebook. Some years I got a zippered notebook, but mostly not. When it rained, we covered the notebook, and our text-books. Then stuck everything under our raincoats. It was easy, and, of course, no teacher would accept "my notebook got wet".

- If we wanted to save our writing, we put it into a folder and put the folder into a file cabinet. In 1992, there was a fire in the apartment below ours, just below our bedroom. NYFD got the fire out by dumping water, after many books got scorched. The folders, including my essay from 1962, survived in an oak file cabinet.

- Office spills? Never, in 35 years of "software engineering" did I spill coffee or seltzer or a coke on papers. Or hardware, which mattered a lot more in, say, 1984, than my design sketches. Notebook, documentation, random papers on the left. Coffee on the right. It's just a habit, but we all learned.

- Odds & ends: 1950s and '60s Quink and Skrip permanent ink is tough. It might not have an extra ingredient to glue itself to paper fibers, but lasts. Why use any ink more permanent? (Consider: until the mid-60s, the fountain pen was one of the standard writing instruments. There was a giant market for inks, and both Parker and Sheaffer had chemists and engineers able to develop all sorts of inks. They never found a market for "bulletproof" ink.). Sheaffer and Parker permanent inks were not iron-gall. I don't know when iron-gall inks went out of fashion in the US, but it must have been before my time. Things-that-must-be-permanent? My company quit saving contracts around 2005. We scanned them and saved the copies to servers in several data centers in US and Europe. Our customers -- big banks -- did the same. By now, "cloud" services save things to their servers.

Paddler
October 6th, 2018, 06:54 AM
We were made to use washable inks in school in the 1950s. The writing I did then, stored in looseleaf notebooks and spiral notebooks, has nearly faded away completely. The "cloud" wouldn't be safe even if you owned the cloud yourself.

mhosea
October 6th, 2018, 10:01 AM
We were made to use washable inks in school in the 1950s. The writing I did then, stored in looseleaf notebooks and spiral notebooks, has nearly faded away completely.

Well, I do know that Parker Quink Blue faded at an amazing/alarming rate for me. I wouldn't ask "Why would anybody..." about it, but the bottle of it that I once bought probably got dumped out at some point because none of the answers I could conjure up resonated with me.

ethernautrix
October 6th, 2018, 10:21 AM
I gotta laugh when people say, "I don't spill things. I don't have accidents, because I am careful. I take precautions."

Man, I'm glad that works for you!

I am not accident-prone, and I consider myself a careful person, and if I, a careful person, can knock over a bottle of ink while filling a pen, then obviously the stick isn't up my ass far enough.

Sorry, Welch. I'm not directing that at you but at all the years of hearing people dismiss others' anxiety over or experience of spills that ruined their notebooks. It happens, even to smart, careful people. I wouldn't insist that people use permanent or bulletproof inks, and I don't use them exclusively. Sometimes I use colors that will disappear when a rain cloud appears overhead; I accept that. But for most of my writing, even the writing I shred later the same day, I use Noodler's Black.

Because I like it, end of story. I assume that everyone does what they do because they like it, and all this imperative-mongering is futile.

Yes, yes, I understand that the OP expresses wonder that people use "disappearing" ink (exaggeration for effect). Oo, I know! Let's all take that as a personal affront! Much as I am doing now, in a fun way (at least for myself), about people who never spill things and are never around people who spill things or aren't around when people who spill things spill things on your notebook. Or who don't care if the ink washes off their pages, who take their notebooks out in a storm and leave them open on the ground, cos they don't care about what they've written. GROOVY, MAN! I love it that those people are so fearless! I'm not kidding. I admire that easy ability to let go.

Me, for now, I want what I've written to be as permanent as I am, which is to say, to be around until I don't want it anymore, rather than have a misjudged-distance bump into a table cause a to-scale tsunami of woda mineralna gazowana or coffee or soup, leaving a devastation of pages and lost work.

Everyone has one's level of risk tolerance. Accept the mystery.

Deb
October 6th, 2018, 11:28 AM
What I write isn't intended to be permanent. Very few things are actually permanent. Most of what I write is typed up later into one blog or another. If I have an accident and some ink goes where it wasn't supposed to, it helps if I know it will wash out.

AzJon
October 6th, 2018, 12:37 PM
I feel like this is an appropriate story here:

Iconic Banksy Artwork Shreds Itself After Being Auctioned Off at Sotheby’s For $1.4 Million

https://laughingsquid.com/banksy-artwork-shreds-itself-after-auction/

ethernautrix
October 6th, 2018, 12:42 PM
I feel like this is an appropriate story here:

Iconic Banksy Artwork Shreds Itself After Being Auctioned Off at Sotheby’s For $1.4 Million

https://laughingsquid.com/banksy-artwork-shreds-itself-after-auction/

Wow.


I'm stunned and impressed and, you know, I think it's cool, cos I didn't just pay $1.4 million for it. I suppose the buyer won't be held liable for payment.

Thanks for sharing that story!

Lloyd
October 6th, 2018, 01:13 PM
Can the buyer shred heir check prior to paying?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

milkb0at
October 6th, 2018, 03:30 PM
I'm sure the buyer will be delighted, since the artwork has probably just doubled in value.

DickBrowne
October 7th, 2018, 01:18 AM
I'm sure the buyer will be delighted, since the artwork has probably just doubled in value.

Tripled, I believe, if what I read last night is to be believed.

I once ruined a set of perfectly good work notes by knocking over the ink bottle from which I was refilling my pen. Permanence wouldn’t have helped at all... I believe the customer still remembers me, though.

Oh, and hello from a newbie in the UK (just getting ready to leave home for the London Writing Equipment Show!)

I shall do a proper intro as soon as I can.