Brandon Cifani is engaged in fraud

[kirchh]

Mr. Brandon Cifani is engaged in fraud, in my opinion.

Brandon Cifani is a minor and a high school student. His email address is brandon15926@gmail.com; his FPGeeks user name is Brando090, his fountainpennetwork username is Brando090 (banned), his fountainpenboard username is Brando090, he has used cifani090 on other boards such as Head-Fi.org (banned), his former eBay IDs were “Brando090” (banned) and “Branny090” (banned), and his current eBay ID is “penmaney”.

Brandon Cifani has a long history of fraudulent, dishonest, and deceitful behavior:

- Lying about his age when inquiring about obtaining a firearm (http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?p=780890#post780890)

- Lying about the price he paid for a book when offering it for resale (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/1038-Fountain-Pens-Vintage-and-Modern-by-Andreas-Lambrou-Book)

- Lying about his age when registering for an eBay account (three times). He has admitted this lie (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/813-Cant-visit-FPN-anymore?p=8798&viewfull=1#post8798): “The reason im not on ebay is really not any of your business, and is related to me not being old enough (18)”

- Lying about no longer being on eBay and about no longer buying items there (http://fountainpenboard.com/forum/index.php?/topic/4278-first-vacumatic/page__view__findpost__p__25111) while actively buying pens and other items (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidItems&userid=penmaney&completed=1&all=1&rows=200&sort=3&_rdc=1) on eBay

- Violating PayPal terms of service by lying about his age

- Winning items on eBay and refusing to pay for them (e.g. this group of Vacumatics (http://cgi.ebay.com/380621624095) which was won by user "penmaney" according to the seller)

- Lying about the source of items he “bought” (http://fountainpenboard.com/forum/index.php?/topic/4278-first-vacumatic/page__view__findpost__p__23648) (see above)

- Lying about owning certain pens and engaging in negotiations to sell or trade those pens (http://fountainpenboard.com/forum/index.php?/topic/3474-waterman-12-variations/page__view__findpost__p__18584)

A previous post here (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/813-Cant-visit-FPN-anymore?p=8788&viewfull=1#post8788) included a survey of some other of Mr. Cifani’s activities.

Brandon Cifani’s latest and perhaps most serious fraud concerns the offering for sale of very expensive pens that he does not possess nor own. Here is a timeline of the events surrounding this fraud:

On May 11 of this year, Brandon Cifani sent me an email asking,


“Do you still have the Waterman combo for sale?
--
Best Regards,
Brandon”

This was an apparent reference to an old For Sale listing I had posted. I replied, stating that I still owned the pen to which he referred. He answered in part,


“Could you please send me photos of that one, and silver and gold pens your [sic] looking to sell. English, German, French, and Italian pens along with the normal Waterman silver and taper pens.”

I replied to Mr. Cifani, but I did not send a direct email. Instead, I sent my response through eBay to User ID “penmaney” as I suspected that was Mr. Cifani’s eBay handle. I asked Mr. Cifani what his budget was. He replied back through eBay from user “penmaney” and stated that his budget was “unlimited.” This confirmed that Brandon Cifani’s eBay userID was “penmaney”.

I sent Mr. Cifani a photo of the Waterman combo, and I also sent a photo of some of my early overlay pens. Knowing Mr. Cifani’s history of unethical activities, in order to protect myself I subtly watermarked my name in the image of the overlays, and I included a comment in the EXIF data in the image file stating that I owned the pens in the image and that Mr. Cifani did not. On a hunch, I also sent a copy of the image to George Rimakis, as I know he has an interest in early Waterman pens and in overlays in particular, and the image included several early Waterman overlays. I warned George that if he were offered any of these items, a fraud was being perpetrated.

Here is the picture I sent to Brandon Cifani:

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/For_Sale/Overlays_WM.jpg

Mr. Cifani replied to me on May 13 and said, in part,


“I would be interested in everything. What are the model number [sic] and what are you asking.”

I replied by identifying some of the model numbers, including that of a Waterman taper cap half-overlay – a model 222.

The next day, May 14, George Rimakis contacted me and stated that he had received an email from Mr. Cifani stating that Brandon had some sterling taper cap pens that Mr. Rimakis might be interested in. Brandon then emailed George a picture, with the cover note,


“Here are some of the pens I can trade.”

Mr. Cifani followed that message with a PM to George, in which Brandon stated,


“I sent you some pictures of a recent overseas pen collection that I bought.”

Here is the picture that Brandon Cifani sent to George Rimakis:

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/For_Sale/downloadfile-6.jpg

The picture that Mr. Cifani sent to Mr. Rimakis of this “overseas pen collection” he had supposedly purchased was instead the very same image I’d sent him of my early overlay pens, complete with watermark (top left) and EXIF data indicating that Mr. Cifani did not own the pens.

To be sure that Brandon did not simply mix up some pictures, and that he was claiming that he both owned and physically possessed the pens in the picture he had sent, George asked him about a few details of the pens, and George also inquired about how the purported “overseas collection” was shipped to Mr. Cifani. Brandon promptly replied,


“The Waterman's [sic] on the left are about 5 3/4 inches long, while one being just lightly longer. The beautiful Moore overlay pen I was lucky to acquire a short time ago seems to have the cursive initials 'AG' or 'AC'. While I'm open to trades, I'm reluctant to let the Watermans go, and cash is king for these pens. As for shipping, I was lucky enough to get the package personally shipped with a secured delivery which was quite expensive, but well worth it.”

This reply eliminated any possibility that Brandon could claim that he innocently mixed up any pictures, and it also made it clear that he was claiming that he actually had the pens in the picture in his possession.

George then asked Brandon how much he was asking for the group of pens. Mr. Cifani replied,


“For the collection, excluding pens 1,2,3, and 5 I could do $33,300.”

To summarize: Brandon Cifani is attempting to sell, for over $30,000, a group of pens that don’t belong to him.

[George Rimakis’s version of these events is posted here (http://fountainpenboard.com/forum/index.php?/topic/4474-brandon-cifani-brando090-is-engaged-in-fraud/). We collaborated on our posts to ensure accuracy.]

[Jon Szanto]

So sad. I've replied to George over on FPB, but thank you, Dan, for shedding light.

[fountainpenkid]

I think he's done this before as well...pathetic. I would highly suggest that all boards ban him.He needs to learn his lesson. David, I know I said once on FPB that I didn't really want to ban him, but I fully revoke this statement. This is ridiculous and off the wall. Thanks to the original poster for revealing this.

[HughC]

I've observed Brandon's antics over some time and suggest the cause may well be a mental health issue that leads to this obsessive and far from normal behaviour. Of course i could be wrong, which is fairly common.

Regards
Hugh

[fountainpenkid]

I've observed Brandon's antics over some time and suggest the cause may well be a mental health issue that leads to this obsessive and far from normal behavior. Of course i could be wrong, which is fairly common.

Regards
Hugh
possibly. The problem is getting the poor soul to listen to something like that. (maybe he has?)

[Manny]

http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m496/gclef1114/Tutuguans/0517132109-1_zps96553a30.jpg

[Manny]

Here's his google+ page:

https://plus.google.com/100428378809615332625/posts

[Marsilius]

Here's his google+ page:

https://plus.google.com/100428378809615332625/posts

Not to be a school marm, but be careful, because we have already seen (maybe) that you never know if an internet name is the same as the real person. It is tempting to think that is the same person, and I assume you guys have more info than I do. Is this from his own link, or from a name search? School marm moment over.

[Manny]

Here's his google+ page:

https://plus.google.com/100428378809615332625/posts

Not to be a school marm, but be careful, because we have already seen (maybe) that you never know if an internet name is the same as the real person. It is tempting to think that is the same person, and I assume you guys have more info than I do. Is this from his own link, or from a name search? School marm moment over.

I googled the name and it came up on google+. I also posted a link of this thread in the google+ fountain pens community, just in case.

[Marsilius]

I guess I am saying just be cautious. As all the news floods in, there are still questions, no?

[Tony Rex]

From Ricky's description of this individual and this behaviour above, I reckon he was trying to become a middleman. An unauthorized brokerage of some sort, which for him is an entrepreneurship endeavour, that is called fraud by everyone else... But hey, nowadays it's all relative right?

Tony

[gweddig]

I guess I am saying just be cautious. As all the news floods in, there are still questions, no?

A seemingly similar photo to the Google+ profile shows up on a Facebook profile with that name. Also similar to the photo I found when he was trying to "do business" with me last year.

I have no questions, life is too short and there are too many reliable sources for pens to bother with Brandon.

I also like how this thread appears as the fourth Google result when searching his e-mail address.

[Marsilius]

I guess I am saying just be cautious. As all the news floods in, there are still questions, no?

A seemingly similar photo to the Google+ profile shows up on a Facebook profile with that name. Also similar to the photo I found when he was trying to "do business" with me last year.

I have no questions, life is too short and there are too many reliable sources for pens to bother with Brandon.

I also like how this thread appears as the fourth Google result when searching his e-mail address.

Don't get me wrong. I don't mean keep doing business. Just be careful of hanging before trial . . . O heck go ahead, it's just the Internet.
Seriously, things and evidence have a way of piling up, and some of it turns out to to be spurious sometimes. That's all I'm saying. Wait, I said school marm time is done! I'm off to get my pitchfork!

[david i]

I guess I am saying just be cautious. As all the news floods in, there are still questions, no?

A seemingly similar photo to the Google+ profile shows up on a Facebook profile with that name. Also similar to the photo I found when he was trying to "do business" with me last year.

I have no questions, life is too short and there are too many reliable sources for pens to bother with Brandon.

I also like how this thread appears as the fourth Google result when searching his e-mail address.

Don't get me wrong. I don't mean keep doing business. Just be careful of hanging before trial . . . O heck go ahead, it's just the Internet.
Seriously, things and evidence have a way of piling up, and some of it turns out to to be spurious sometimes. That's all I'm saying. Wait, I said school marm time is done! I'm off to get my pitchfork!

Hi,

Of note, this is the same Brandon who has emailed me and phoned me previously, most recently emailing me to remove the entire thread from Fountain Pen Board. While a con man might mimic someone for more than a year on multiple sites and boards to try to do rather bizarre deals, I can assure you the person involved in this "deal" is the same fellow who has been posting about pens, guns, cars, stereos and precious metals, who has been tossed from ebay a couple times, who has admitted to having been tossed from ebay for bad pen deals. Make of that what you will. I'm just back from two weeks of night shifts at hospital following the Chicago Pen Show. Fried, am I. So, more details will have to wait a bit.

But this latest "adventure" is merely a neat follow up to numerous of its kind, building quite nicely on one of his more entertaining forays, in which he tried to sell me one particular pen, one quite rare in fact and very old, using a picture of that pen someone else had sent him in discussion, a "deal" which was more entertaining to me than even the escapade above, because... why? Well, that truly rare pen he had tried to sell me? The pen he did not own? I actually owned it (the actual pen, not just that type) already.

As they say... whaddreDahOdds?

More a bit later in the week.

regards

daivd

[Marsilius]

Ok, I satisfied the cautious thing. This reminds me (on a fairly grand scale) of students who plagiarize their own teachers' writing and are surprised to get caught.

[bgray]

No surprise here.

He tried to scam me 4-5 times, and I can mention many others that I know as fact.

His scams were always easy to sniff out. My concern was that he would graduate to better and larger scams, and it looks like that day is here.

Thanks for sharing. Spread the word, people.

[david i]

For those who would like to hear Brandon, in his own words, do peek in on George's similar thread at Fountain Pen Board.

Brandon is hard at work, apologizing, yet again, while blaming the world for trying to deceive him so many times about pens. A bit pathetic, but consider this a rare example of the "dumb crook", too weak in tactics to succeed. Consider those out there with this attitude, but with more brains... ;)

Link to FPB thread with Brandon's response

http://www.fountainpenboard.com/forum/index.php?/topic/4474-brandon-cifani-brando090-is-engaged-in-fraud

regards

david

[cwent2]

because... why? Well, that truly rare pen he had tried to sell me? The pen he did not own? I actually owned it (the actual pen, not just that type) already.

@Davidi Now that, though sad, is funny - the mouse and the mouse trap!

[Uncle Red]

He's a minor, contact his parents and the police. And since this is interstate fraud, the FBI as well.

[Sailor Kenshin]

As a minor, he needs help....of one kind or another. Meanwhile, thanks to everyone for the warnings.

[aschup]

He's a minor, contact his parents and the police. And since this is interstate fraud, the FBI as well.
I'm glad we're all keeping a level head and staying away from absurd hyperbole.

[kirchh]

Brandon Cifani wrote (http://fountainpenboard.com/forum/index.php?/topic/4474-brandon-cifani-brando090-is-engaged-in-fraud/page__view__findpost__p__25354),


I was simply looking for someone to buy into the collection with me.

Brandon Cifani is lying. Again.

When two people buy into a collection, they each pay part of the price, and they each get some of the pens.

In Brandon Cifani's fraud, putting aside all the lies he told about owning the collection, he was asking George Rimakis to pay $33,300 to get 12 of the items, while Brandon was going to come away with four pens, including the two most valuable. And how much was Brandon going to pay to "buy into the collection"?

Let's do the math.

The total I gave Brandon for all 16 items was $26,000.

So, Brandon Cifani was plotting to take George's $33,300 and give $26,000 to me, thus pocketing $7,300. And, he was going to keep four of the pens, worth several thousand dollars.

So now, in a desperate attempt to deny responsibility for his fraud, he has concocted yet another shameless lie, which is trivially exposed, as are so many of his lies.

I don't know if the cover-up is worse than the crime, but certainly if anyone had any doubt about the depths of Brandon Cifani's dishonesty and the emptiness of his apologies, this most recent falsehood should put those doubts to rest.

--Daniel

[Jon Szanto]

Daniel, you should post that same post on FPB.

[david i]

It is good to see FPB and FPG cross pollinating.

Do peek over there for more of Brandon's gems. Kid's on a roll today

http://www.fountainpenboard.com/forum/index.php?/topic/4474-brandon-cifani-brando090-is-engaged-in-fraud/

I would note that "doing the math" in this case is irrelevant.

Pocketing a profit from an arranged/brokered/partnered deal is good and proper in many circumstances.

The issue of taking money for pens with a claim of owning them, when one not only doesn't own them and indeed never will, is the rub.

regards

David

[Laura N]

It is good to see FPB and FPG cross pollinating.

Do peek over there for more of Brandon's gems. Kid's on a roll today

http://www.fountainpenboard.com/forum/index.php?/topic/4474-brandon-cifani-brando090-is-engaged-in-fraud/

I would note that "doing the math" in this case is irrelevant.

Pocketing a profit from an arranged/brokered/partnered deal is good and proper in many circumstances.

The issue of taking money for pens with a claim of owning them, when one not only doesn't own them and indeed never will, is the rub.

regards

David

In other words, he didn't present himself as a broker. He said he owned the pens. That is a proven misrepresentation.

However, the amount he was seeking to profit from the deal is not immaterial. It is staggering. He was seeking to walk away with a net of four pens "worth thousands" plus more than $7,000 in cash. He was seeking a gross amount from his target of $33,300.

So I think "doing the math" is relevant. First, it shows that this person's capacity for harm is non-trivial. Second, this amount is felony territory. The math matters.

[kirchh]

So I think "doing the math" is relevant. First, it shows that this person's capacity for harm is non-trivial. Second, this amount is felony territory. The math matters.
And my specific point was that Brandon Cifani's representation that he was "simply looking for someone to buy into the collection with me" is provably false, because Brandon wasn't going to be buying in at all -- the opposite is true: he was going to be profiting. When two people buy into a purchase, they share the cost, and they share the goods. Brandon cannot support his offered rationalization in that regard, because he was trying to get George to pay the entire cost -- plus another $7,000+ for Brandon to pocket. So the math exposes Brandon's claim of what he was "simply looking" to do as yet another lie.

--Daniel

[CS388]

It is good to see FPB and FPG cross pollinating.

Do peek over there for more of Brandon's gems. Kid's on a roll today

http://www.fountainpenboard.com/forum/index.php?/topic/4474-brandon-cifani-brando090-is-engaged-in-fraud/




Gosh. That's pretty irrefutable!

I had no idea this sort of thing was going on.

Good work, all. Thanks.

[david i]

In other words, he didn't present himself as a broker. He said he owned the pens. That is a proven misrepresentation.

However, the amount he was seeking to profit from the deal is not immaterial. It is staggering. He was seeking to walk away with a net of four pens "worth thousands" plus more than $7,000 in cash. He was seeking a gross amount from his target of $33,300.

So I think "doing the math" is relevant. First, it shows that this person's capacity for harm is non-trivial. Second, this amount is felony territory. The math matters.



It is good to see FPB and FPG cross pollinating.

Do peek over there for more of Brandon's gems. Kid's on a roll today

http://www.fountainpenboard.com/forum/index.php?/topic/4474-brandon-cifani-brando090-is-engaged-in-fraud/

I would note that "doing the math" in this case is irrelevant.

Pocketing a profit from an arranged/brokered/partnered deal is good and proper in many circumstances.

The issue of taking money for pens with a claim of owning them, when one not only doesn't own them and indeed never will, is the rub.

regards

David

In other words, he didn't present himself as a broker. He said he owned the pens. That is a proven misrepresentation.

However, the amount he was seeking to profit from the deal is not immaterial. It is staggering. He was seeking to walk away with a net of four pens "worth thousands" plus more than $7,000 in cash. He was seeking a gross amount from his target of $33,300.

So I think "doing the math" is relevant. First, it shows that this person's capacity for harm is non-trivial. Second, this amount is felony territory. The math matters.

Hi Laura,

Yes, the key ethical issue-- and this is only the latest in his chain of prior blips-- is his attempts to sell pens as his, pens which he did not own, which-- incidentally or not incidentally-- he in fact would never and could never own. His multiple banishments from ebay and his claims via his latest ebay incarnation that his cash on hand to buy pens was "unlimited", adds charm-- of a sort -- to the mix. That he tried to sell me my own (i had the actual pen) pen on one occasion, a pen worth a grand or two, certainly sets context for my views regarding him.

Here is four page thread at Fountain Pen Board, showing typical Brandon, inquiring about pens in the general case, pens he actually was offering in trade to people, pens he had seen in pictures others had sent him, pens he did not own and never would. It gets interesting around page 2.

http://www.fountainpenboard.com/forum/index.php?/topic/3474-waterman-12-variations/

As to math, the presence of profit indeed is not relevant to the ethics in play, as the issue never was about making profit on pen sales, it was-- as you noted-- about fraud.

But, in the more general case on which I believe you touch, "How much profit is acceptable in various pen deals", I can provide some thoughts and examples for consideration.

Most pen retailers who take pens on consignment to sell pens for collectors charge 30-40%, assuming the collection/ pens are worth the hassle. When pens are sold outright to dealers, barring some monster pens, generally the buy price must be < 50% of retail.

If I had chance to broker a set of high end pens of great cachet, with a purchase price of $25k, would I offer to sell most of the pens for $33k while keeping a few thousand dollars in pens for myself?

Probably.

Then there is the other end of the process. I have put together purchasing consortiums in which I have charged nothing to my compadres. At the Ohio Pen Show (Nov 2012) a long time dealer wanted to sell his massive collection which included many great pens, rarities seen in some of the big pen books. The wholesale offering (itself about 40% of retail price) was claimed to run $250k prior to inspection. Too much of me to eat. I put together a group of five people, inviting four long time pen friends (dealers/collectors) to partner. I did not charge a finder's fee. The total purchase came to just 40% of the first guess, after we limited certain aspects of the purchase. I could have used fewer partners, as I would have not minded keeping more pens. So, two principles in one. We bought the pens for 40% of their sales value. But, in this case, I charged my friends nothing to participate.

Where would Brandon's "deal" fall amongst these models, had the "deal" been an actual deal? In my view not wholly unreasonable. On that point, to each his own ;)

As to the Ohio Pen Show purchase. We named our group the Gang of Five, Pens. If you search Facebook for Gang of Five Pens, you can see our page. I'm a bit embarrassed that on the fountainpenboard.com Gang of Five thread, I have not yet put pics of ALL the pens up, but many are up and more will be done next week or two.

You can see the Gang of Five Pens discussion at Fountain Pen Board here:

http://www.fountainpenboard.com/forum/index.php?/topic/3786-it-begins-gang-of-five-scores-amazing-pen-collection/

So, Brandon's issues, beside atrocious spelling and grammar, along with his belief that his writing is good, include multiple bouts with variously fraudulent attempts to buy/broker, lies on different websites about his age (claiming age 21 on a gun site when he was 16-17), multiple episodes of failing to pay for pens he won on ebay, a delusional view of what goes into being a dealer in vintage items, and failure to understand when these things are pointed out to him. It is a bit tragic.

I really don't know that he planned to steal $33k. His core delusion appears to be that he can broker sales without laying out any cash, that he'll make his cut during the process. His actions still were frank fraud, and posed huge potential damage to his "clients" and legal risk to him, but I'm not sold he is merely a thief. But he might be. That he thinks he might "broker" a deal between advanced collectors, that he offers $100 pens in trade for $1000 pens, that he is utterly convinced of his ability, when he lacks that ability are… sad.

regards

david

[david i]

So I think "doing the math" is relevant. First, it shows that this person's capacity for harm is non-trivial. Second, this amount is felony territory. The math matters.
And my specific point was that Brandon Cifani's representation that he was "simply looking for someone to buy into the collection with me" is provably false, because Brandon wasn't going to be buying in at all -- the opposite is true: he was going to be profiting. When two people buy into a purchase, they share the cost, and they share the goods. Brandon cannot support his offered rationalization in that regard, because he was trying to get George to pay the entire cost -- plus another $7,000+ for Brandon to pocket. So the math exposes Brandon's claim of what he was "simply looking" to do as yet another lie.

--Daniel

No,

As at least implied by my post to Laura, just above this current post, "buying into a collection with me" does not necessitate equal value-for-investment. That is what was referenced by my analysis of "the math".

That Brandon engages in many lies, I most certainly do not dispute, especially as I am one of the major forces, long preceding this thread, addressing and characterizing Brandon's approach to pen dealings. This has nothing to do with math.

That Brandon had not bought (and in fact could not buy) the pens in question I most certainly do not dispute (see prior sentence). This has nothing to do with math.

I merely point out that "the math" of a "purchase arrangement" for this collection (were the collection for sale, had Brandon bought it, or had Brandon planned a partnership to buy it) is irrelevant, because purchase arrangements are subject to quite variable terms, even when the casual term, "share" is invoked.

I do not recognize that shared purchase of a collection requires equal terms. One can, of course, address what elements go into kind, fair, reasonable shared purchases, but that is a theme for a separate post/thread.

regards

David

[david i]

It is good to see FPB and FPG cross pollinating.

Do peek over there for more of Brandon's gems. Kid's on a roll today

http://www.fountainpenboard.com/forum/index.php?/topic/4474-brandon-cifani-brando090-is-engaged-in-fraud/




Gosh. That's pretty irrefutable!

I had no idea this sort of thing was going on.

Good work, all. Thanks.

You are very welcome :)

regards

david

[HughC]

So, Brandon's issues, beside atrocious spelling and grammar, along with his belief that his writing is good, include multiple bouts with variously fraudulent attempts to buy/broker, lies on different websites about his age (claiming age 21 on a gun site when he was 16-17), multiple episodes of failing to pay for pens he won on ebay, a delusional view of what goes into being a dealer in vintage items, and failure to understand when these things are pointed out to him. It is a bit tragic.

I really don't know that he planned to steal $33k. His core delusion appears to be that he can broker sales without laying out any cash, that he'll make his cut during the process. His actions still were frank fraud, and posed huge potential damage to his "clients" and legal risk to him, but I'm not sold he is merely a thief. But he might be. That he thinks he might "broker" a deal between advanced collectors, that he offers $100 pens in trade for $1000 pens, that he is utterly convinced of his ability, when he lacks that ability are… sad.

regards

david

I think you've summed up well David, tragic and sad are appropriate. I also doubt theft was the motive, I see an obsession that drives irrational thoughts and behavior that when combined with a lack of understanding the consequences of his actions produces this sort of farcical situation (again). In this case the amount of money involved is serious. He needs both professional help and his online activities need to be monitored by a responsible adult.

Regards
Hugh

[KrazyIvan]

This guy contacted me to inquire about some pens but I was not selling. It has been quite a while back. Now I wonder if he used any of my pictures in his dealings.

[Laura N]

David, I don't want to quote your entire post #28. I do agree with what you are saying.

However I don't want there to be any inadvertent mis-impression of my comments. I did not say or imply anything about theft. Like you i assume he intended to deliver the pens. In fact, my math, and Daniel's, assumed he delivered the pens and received the $7,000 and the four agreed pens.

I was trying to say that a transaction involving $33,000 is on a whole different scale. This is for Brandon's benefit as much as anyone's.

[Nonsensical]

(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻)

The stuff he writes makes my brain hurt. Which is unfortunate, since threads imvolving him are also quite interesting...

[david i]

David, I don't want to quote your entire post #28. I do agree with what you are saying.

However I don't want there to be any inadvertent mis-impression of my comments. I did not say or imply anything about theft. Like you i assume he intended to deliver the pens. In fact, my math, and Daniel's, assumed he delivered the pens and received the $7,000 and the four agreed pens.

I was trying to say that a transaction involving $33,000 is on a whole different scale. This is for Brandon's benefit as much as anyone's.

Hi Laura,

I agree with you entirely regarding the scale and import of Brandon's latest... effort. The fraud indeed is the key.

For what it is worth, I (in my role as Poseur Pen Dealer Par Excellence) would have no ethical qualms in a real situation in which someone approached me to liquidate a $25k pen collection at once, with (if I could find the right buyer) keeping $7k in pens and selling the remainder at $33k. That is... about... the right... spread.

I cannot here well convey the entertainment value though in watching someone-- who does not know even the names and models of the pens he sees-- having the hubris and chutzpa to attempt to execute such a deal, if there actually had been a deal of this sort to execute. Which, brings us back to Hugh's post (with my quote) just above ;)

Regards

David

[subramaniyam]

Wow. What an eye-opening thread. Just proves the power of community and how it can help fight 'bad' things. Having started my first classified here, this was a great primer on the ethics of online business. I'll probably be clicking the 'Thanks' button on every post here!!!

Respects.
Subramaniyam

[CapeClear]

A bizarre read. Fair play to all involved in exposing this.

[Manny]

(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻)

The stuff he writes makes my brain hurt. Which is unfortunate, since threads imvolving him are also quite interesting...

http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m496/gclef1114/Tutuguans/0520131515a_zps1900bd09.jpg

[Manny]

http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m496/gclef1114/Tutuguans/0520131545b_zps1dd1e759.jpg

[Sailor Kenshin]

On e of these days, you gotta put what pen and ink you're using into the posts.

[southpaw52]

It is sad what's sadder that you continues to do such activity. This young man needs help and I hope that someone intervenes to help this young man. The path he is taking is not a positive one it is only going to get worse and bigger.

[Penne Stilografiche]

Brandon has gone back to his old ways. He was just kicked off of the Fountain Pen Network for trying to sell pens he does not own as well as lying about what pens he owns. His username was "Penister".

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/249233-58/page-3

Best Regards
Vincenzo

[Jon Szanto]

A concatenation of penis and sinister. Perfect.

[Penne Stilografiche]

A concatenation of penis and sinister. Perfect.

You are not that off, the slang meaning of his name can be found below.

http://www.soslang.com/term/penister

http://www.urbandict...p?term=penistry

[kirchh]

Brandon Cifani has changed his FPN username (or had it changed) to "pen-lover".

--Daniel

[Penne Stilografiche]

Brandon Cifani has changed his FPN username (or had it changed) to "pen-lover".

--Daniel

That is quite strange, he changed his username after he was blocked. I didn't even know you could change your FPN username in the first place.

[Sailor Kenshin]

Curiouser and curiouser.

[Penne Stilografiche]

Brandon, If you are reading this, please understand the severity of what you have done. You obviously do not see anything wrong with scamming people, as you have tried to scam members of the pen collecting community numerous times. What you have done is not only wrong, but what you have done has greatly decreased your chances of getting a decent job in the future as well as decreasing your chances of getting into any college. Any of your possible future employers will look up your history before hiring you. Try typing your name into any browser. This thread as well as many threads discussing your business practices will come up, along with the link to your photo and Facebook page which is embedded in this thread as well as threads on the FPN AND FPB.

Well played Brandon, well played. :thank_you2:

[Penne Stilografiche]

Mr. Brandon Cifani is engaged in fraud, in my opinion.

Brandon Cifani is a minor and a high school student. His email address is brandon15926@gmail.com; his FPGeeks user name is Brando090, his fountainpennetwork username is Brando090 (banned), his fountainpenboard username is Brando090, he has used cifani090 on other boards such as Head-Fi.org (banned), his former eBay IDs were “Brando090” (banned) and “Branny090” (banned), and his current eBay ID is “penmaney”.

Brandon Cifani has a long history of fraudulent, dishonest, and deceitful behavior:

- Lying about his age when inquiring about obtaining a firearm (http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?p=780890#post780890)

- Lying about the price he paid for a book when offering it for resale (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/1038-Fountain-Pens-Vintage-and-Modern-by-Andreas-Lambrou-Book)

- Lying about his age when registering for an eBay account (three times). He has admitted this lie (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/813-Cant-visit-FPN-anymore?p=8798&viewfull=1#post8798): “The reason im not on ebay is really not any of your business, and is related to me not being old enough (18)”

- Lying about no longer being on eBay and about no longer buying items there (http://fountainpenboard.com/forum/index.php?/topic/4278-first-vacumatic/page__view__findpost__p__25111) while actively buying pens and other items (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidItems&userid=penmaney&completed=1&all=1&rows=200&sort=3&_rdc=1) on eBay

- Violating PayPal terms of service by lying about his age

- Winning items on eBay and refusing to pay for them (e.g. this group of Vacumatics (http://cgi.ebay.com/380621624095) which was won by user "penmaney" according to the seller)

- Lying about the source of items he “bought” (http://fountainpenboard.com/forum/index.php?/topic/4278-first-vacumatic/page__view__findpost__p__23648) (see above)

- Lying about owning certain pens and engaging in negotiations to sell or trade those pens (http://fountainpenboard.com/forum/index.php?/topic/3474-waterman-12-variations/page__view__findpost__p__18584)

A previous post here (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/813-Cant-visit-FPN-anymore?p=8788&viewfull=1#post8788) included a survey of some other of Mr. Cifani’s activities.

Brandon Cifani’s latest and perhaps most serious fraud concerns the offering for sale of very expensive pens that he does not possess nor own. Here is a timeline of the events surrounding this fraud:

On May 11 of this year, Brandon Cifani sent me an email asking,



This was an apparent reference to an old For Sale listing I had posted. I replied, stating that I still owned the pen to which he referred. He answered in part,


“Could you please send me photos of that one, and silver and gold pens your [sic] looking to sell. English, German, French, and Italian pens along with the normal Waterman silver and taper pens.”

I replied to Mr. Cifani, but I did not send a direct email. Instead, I sent my response through eBay to User ID “penmaney” as I suspected that was Mr. Cifani’s eBay handle. I asked Mr. Cifani what his budget was. He replied back through eBay from user “penmaney” and stated that his budget was “unlimited.” This confirmed that Brandon Cifani’s eBay userID was “penmaney”.

I sent Mr. Cifani a photo of the Waterman combo, and I also sent a photo of some of my early overlay pens. Knowing Mr. Cifani’s history of unethical activities, in order to protect myself I subtly watermarked my name in the image of the overlays, and I included a comment in the EXIF data in the image file stating that I owned the pens in the image and that Mr. Cifani did not. On a hunch, I also sent a copy of the image to George Rimakis, as I know he has an interest in early Waterman pens and in overlays in particular, and the image included several early Waterman overlays. I warned George that if he were offered any of these items, a fraud was being perpetrated.

Here is the picture I sent to Brandon Cifani:

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/For_Sale/Overlays_WM.jpg

Mr. Cifani replied to me on May 13 and said, in part,


“I would be interested in everything. What are the model number [sic] and what are you asking.”

I replied by identifying some of the model numbers, including that of a Waterman taper cap half-overlay – a model 222.

The next day, May 14, George Rimakis contacted me and stated that he had received an email from Mr. Cifani stating that Brandon had some sterling taper cap pens that Mr. Rimakis might be interested in. Brandon then emailed George a picture, with the cover note,


“Here are some of the pens I can trade.”

Mr. Cifani followed that message with a PM to George, in which Brandon stated,


“I sent you some pictures of a recent overseas pen collection that I bought.”

Here is the picture that Brandon Cifani sent to George Rimakis:

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/For_Sale/downloadfile-6.jpg

The picture that Mr. Cifani sent to Mr. Rimakis of this “overseas pen collection” he had supposedly purchased was instead the very same image I’d sent him of my early overlay pens, complete with watermark (top left) and EXIF data indicating that Mr. Cifani did not own the pens.

To be sure that Brandon did not simply mix up some pictures, and that he was claiming that he both owned and physically possessed the pens in the picture he had sent, George asked him about a few details of the pens, and George also inquired about how the purported “overseas collection” was shipped to Mr. Cifani. Brandon promptly replied,


“The Waterman's [sic] on the left are about 5 3/4 inches long, while one being just lightly longer. The beautiful Moore overlay pen I was lucky to acquire a short time ago seems to have the cursive initials 'AG' or 'AC'. While I'm open to trades, I'm reluctant to let the Watermans go, and cash is king for these pens. As for shipping, I was lucky enough to get the package personally shipped with a secured delivery which was quite expensive, but well worth it.”

This reply eliminated any possibility that Brandon could claim that he innocently mixed up any pictures, and it also made it clear that he was claiming that he actually had the pens in the picture in his possession.

George then asked Brandon how much he was asking for the group of pens. Mr. Cifani replied,


“For the collection, excluding pens 1,2,3, and 5 I could do $33,300.”

To summarize: Brandon Cifani is attempting to sell, for over $30,000, a group of pens that don’t belong to him.

[George Rimakis’s version of these events is posted here (http://fountainpenboard.com/forum/index.php?/topic/4474-brandon-cifani-brando090-is-engaged-in-fraud/). We collaborated on our posts to ensure accuracy.]

Hi Kirchh,
I would recommend you report this loser to the FBI, I'm pretty sure he will never stop trying to scam people unless something is done about it.

http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx

[mmahany]

Here’s what I personally see: A young kid who could use a lesson on proper business ethics and practices, but not necessarily a young kid who is scamming people. I didn’t once see him claim to own any of the pens he mentioned. I see him trying to line up a buyer before he acquires the pens himself. That’s a very smart way of lowering his risk before buying them himself, the time the pens are in his inventory, and it’s a great way to avoid losing his buying power (money in/out very quickly). It sounds like he’s simply acting as a middle man and attempting to get compensated for it.

Again, I want to explicitly state that some of his selling tactics are misguided, but the basic idea behind what he’s doing is very intelligent. Many upstanding people do the exact same thing for a living. Heck, unless you buy directly from a manufacturer, you probably deal with this on a daily basis (grocery stores, Costco, Pen stores, etc).

In regards to his age: unfortunately, many people online feel the need to offer their opinions and try to “parent” younger kids. I don’t blame him for not providing full disclure. I do see that when he was called out, he openly admitted that his age was a factor in almost all of those situations.

In many cases it looks like he’s either trying to get his questions answered, or he’s trying to get a buyer lined up before he buys a certain pen. Consequently, people are giving him a hard time so every time he makes a new post, he has to provide little detail or flat out lie. That's sad on his part, but also on everyone who is trying to run this kid into the ground.

Now I’m not saying that the kid is legitimate. He may very well be trying to scam someone out of a lot of money. However, the examples you cited DO NOT confirm that he’s trying to steal from people. In fact, the examples you cited show me that he could have a very bright future as a businessman provided he reads a few books on basic ethics and acceptable practices.

Bad business practices? Yes
Is he a scammer? Not necessarily

[kirchh]

Here’s what I personally see: A young kid who could use a lesson on proper business ethics and practices, but not necessarily a young kid who is scamming people. I didn’t once see him claim to own any of the pens he mentioned.
Except he did, repeatedly.

Please re-read my post, then post back here with a retraction and correction.

Thanks.

--Daniel

[Penne Stilografiche]

Here’s what I personally see: A young kid who could use a lesson on proper business ethics and practices, but not necessarily a young kid who is scamming people. I didn’t once see him claim to own any of the pens he mentioned. I see him trying to line up a buyer before he acquires the pens himself. That’s a very smart way of lowering his risk before buying them himself, the time the pens are in his inventory, and it’s a great way to avoid losing his buying power (money in/out very quickly). It sounds like he’s simply acting as a middle man and attempting to get compensated for it.

Again, I want to explicitly state that some of his selling tactics are misguided, but the basic idea behind what he’s doing is very intelligent. Many upstanding people do the exact same thing for a living. Heck, unless you buy directly from a manufacturer, you probably deal with this on a daily basis (grocery stores, Costco, Pen stores, etc).

In regards to his age: unfortunately, many people online feel the need to offer their opinions and try to “parent” younger kids. I don’t blame him for not providing full disclure. I do see that when he was called out, he openly admitted that his age was a factor in almost all of those situations.

In many cases it looks like he’s either trying to get his questions answered, or he’s trying to get a buyer lined up before he buys a certain pen. Consequently, people are giving him a hard time so every time he makes a new post, he has to provide little detail or flat out lie. That's sad on his part, but also on everyone who is trying to run this kid into the ground.

Now I’m not saying that the kid is legitimate. He may very well be trying to scam someone out of a lot of money. However, the examples you cited DO NOT confirm that he’s trying to steal from people. In fact, the examples you cited show me that he could have a very bright future as a businessman provided he reads a few books on basic ethics and acceptable practices.

Bad business practices? Yes
Is he a scammer? Not necessarily

Hi mmhany,
He did claim to own those pens, see the quote below.

“I sent you some pictures of a recent overseas pen collection that I bought.” -Brandon Cifani

In his newest scam he claimed to own the following (quote directly taken from the FPN);

"Pretty good price,

As of 8/3/13, prices are as follows;

RHR 58: $3-3.5k = $49,000

RMHR 58: $1.2-1.6k = $35,200

BHR 58: $7-900 = $36,000

458: $8-12k = $48,000

558 Yellow: $15-18k = $54,000

558 Green: $18-20k = $20,000

558 Rose: $15-18k = $18,000

My collection is worth a modest $225,000 give or take a few pennies. " -Brandon Cifani

"... Exactly its a number 8 nib... These pens are pretty common if your looking for them. I have over 70 in my collection at this moment. We're not talking #20's, were talking #58's..." -Brandon Cifani

"I now have 39 BHR 58's, 14 RHR 58's, and 22 MHR 58's. Let alone, the beauties of my collection, 4 458 and 1 Rose gold 558, 3 Yellow gold 558's, and 1 Green gold 558." Brandon Cifani

[Jon Szanto]

Bad business practices? Yes
Is he a scammer? Not necessarily
When one makes a judgement call one hopefully does so with as much evidence gone over as possible. I believe you've read things here, and maybe on FPN, and come to the above conclusion. However, on the Fountain Pen Board, there was a very, very long thread regarding many of his activities, where Brandon actually took part, answered and asked questions, etc. It became very clear that he is a troubled young person without the concept of both legal prudence and simple right and wrong. He is most definitely aware that he has tried to, essentially, steal from people, and he has done it repeatedly.

Frankly, I don't think it important for every single person to read every single bit of info on this situation, but if you wanted, I would post a link to the other site and the thread (though I'd have to go look it up).

[mmahany]

Except he did, repeatedly.

Please re-read my post, then post back here with a retraction and correction.

Thanks.

--Daniel
It seems you are greatly upset by this situation. I empathize with some of your points , while others I do not. I also can’t offer a full retraction or a correction on my initial post with only the information made available in this thread. I will openly state that I did skip over the quote about him owning the pens in question, but that still doesn’t change the point I am attempting to deliver.

Furthermore, the fact that I read this thread in its entirety is what prompted me to make my initial post. Although I may have skipped over some of the minutia, the comment you made below is what caused me to post. It seems that you are blurring the issue of seller misrepresentation and turning a profit. One is fraudulent and illegal. The other is perfectly legitimate.
It can certainly be your duty to make people aware of fraudulent and illegal activity. It should not be your duty to decide for others what is and isn’t fair. Calling someone a fraud or a scammer should be treated objectively not subjectively.



When two people buy into a collection, they each pay part of the price, and they each get some of the pens.
Are you insinuating that that wouldn’t have happened? If Cifani were to have not delivered on his promise then I would certainly agree. That would be engaging in illegal activity.

In Brandon Cifani's fraud, putting aside all the lies he told about owning the collection, he was asking George Rimakis to pay $33,300 to get 12 of the items, while Brandon was going to come away with four pens, including the two most valuable. And how much was Brandon going to pay to "buy into the collection"?
Are you insinuating that it is unethical to buy in bulk and then sell the portion you do not need? If so, we should be picketing outside Costco right now demanding that they sell to us at the same prices they pay from their distributors.
Let's do the math.

The total I gave Brandon for all 16 items was $26,000.

So, Brandon Cifani was plotting to take George's $33,300 and give $26,000 to me, thus pocketing $7,300. And, he was going to keep four of the pens, worth several thousand dollars.
Do you consider a 28% profit unethical? Would it be wrong of me to buy a Parker 51 for $50 and sell it for $65 (a 30% profit)?
So now, in a desperate attempt to deny responsibility for his fraud, he has concocted yet another shameless lie, which is trivially exposed, as are so many of his lies.

I don't know if the cover-up is worse than the crime, but certainly if anyone had any doubt about the depths of Brandon Cifani's dishonesty and the emptiness of his apologies, this most recent falsehood should put those doubts to rest.
His lies and false information are certainly unethical. I don’t think I once disagreed with that.
--Daniel

Again, I question if your issue is with the kid making actual lies about his ownership, or is your issue with him turning a profit?
As I previously stated, there is no place for lying when conducting an honest and ethical business transaction. I never once disagreed with that. However, one is an issue of legal and illegal activity. The other is your personal interpretation of what is and isn’t fair.

[Jon Szanto]

I will openly state that I did skip over the quote about him owning the pens in question, but that still doesn’t change the point I am attempting to deliver.

Furthermore, the fact that I read this thread in its entirety is what prompted me to make my initial post.
Well, there you go.

You might also consider the fact that the subject was substantial enough to some collectors to become a pinned topic over at the Fountain Pen Board (http://fountainpenboard.com/forum/index.php?/topic/4474-brandon-cifani-brando090-is-engaged-in-fraud/). That might illuminate the topic a bit more, especially since he was trying to con some very knowledgeable pen people.

[kirchh]

mmahany
Re: Brandon Cifani is engaged in fraud

Originally Posted by kirchh
Except he did, repeatedly.

Please re-read my post, then post back here with a retraction and correction.

Thanks.

--Daniel

It seems you are greatly upset by this situation.

Your guess in this regard is both incorrect and irrelevant. Most importantly, it has no bearing whatsoever on the facts -- and you are wrong on the facts. I'd appreciate it if you would stay on the subject; it will speed the clearing up of the multiple misapprehensions under which you are laboring.


I also can’t offer a full retraction or a correction on my initial post with only the information made available in this thread.

Please retract and correct your erroneous claim that Brandon Cifani did not claim to own the pens he offered for sale to George Rimakis.


I will openly state that I did skip over the quote about him owning the pens in question, but that still doesn’t change the point I am attempting to deliver.




False. Your entire argument is premised on your erroneous claim that Brandon never claimed to own the pens, but rather was merely lining up a buyer for items he would later purchase. Here's what you wrote, just so there is no confusion on this point:


I didn’t once see him claim to own any of the pens he mentioned. I see him trying to line up a buyer before he acquires the pens himself. That’s a very smart way of lowering his risk before buying them himself, the time the pens are in his inventory, and it’s a great way to avoid losing his buying power (money in/out very quickly). It sounds like he’s simply acting as a middle man and attempting to get compensated for it.

Again, I want to explicitly state that some of his selling tactics are misguided, but the basic idea behind what he’s doing is very intelligent. Many upstanding people do the exact same thing for a living. Heck, unless you buy directly from a manufacturer, you probably deal with this on a daily basis (grocery stores, Costco, Pen stores, etc).

Every assertion you make in the above paragraphs is false. They are all predicated on your erroneous claim that you "didn’t once see him claim to own any of the pens he mentioned."


Although I may have skipped over some of the minutia, ...

The foundation of your claim is that Brandon didn't "claim to own any of the pens he mentioned." Once that assertion is proven to be false, you assign it the status of "minutia". As a test of the importance of that falsehood to your argument, try re-writing it, replacing "I didn’t once see him claim to own any of the pens he mentioned" with "Brandon lied and claimed he owned all the pens he mentioned." Substituting the truth for a falsehood on a point you deem "minutia" shouldn't damage your argument at all, right?


When two people buy into a collection, they each pay part of the price, and they each get some of the pens.
Are you insinuating that that wouldn’t have happened? If Cifani were to have not delivered on his promise then I would certainly agree. That would be engaging in illegal activity.

You appear to have again skipped over some of the "minutia". I'm not "insinuating" that wouldn't have happened; I'm stating it as a matter of fact. Brandon was not going to share the price of the collection with George. He was going to have George pay the entire price. Plus $7,300 more. Plus Brandon was going to keep some of the pens. Therefore, Brandon was not, in fact, looking for "someone to buy into the collection" with him. That statement is a lie.


In Brandon Cifani's fraud, putting aside all the lies he told about owning the collection, he was asking George Rimakis to pay $33,300 to get 12 of the items, while Brandon was going to come away with four pens, including the two most valuable. And how much was Brandon going to pay to "buy into the collection"?
Are you insinuating that it is unethical to buy in bulk and then sell the portion you do not need? If so, we should be picketing outside Costco right now demanding that they sell to us at the same prices they pay from their distributors.

That pesky "minutia" again, coupled with your bad habit of "skipping over" things. Brandon claimed he was going to share the cost to buy the collection; that he and George were both going to buy into the lot, so that two people could afford to split the cost. That was a lie; Brandon wasn't going to contribute anything to the cost. In fact, he was going to have George foot the entire cost, plus $7,300. And Brandon was going to pocket the difference, as well as several pens. So, the point you have missed with your "skipping over" of "minutia" is that Brandon lied after he was caught when he claimed he was only looking for another buyer so that two people could afford the cost of the collection together. So, to conclude, I am stating -- not insinuating -- that it is dishonest for someone to claim that he was looking for someone to buy into a collection with him, when he is not, in fact, buying into the collection at all. Note that even Brandon, in all his dishonesty, does not make the claim that you do -- that he was merely buying a collection at one price and then selling it at a markup. Instead, having been caught lying about ownership of the pens, he attempted to re-cast the entire attempted transaction as merely two people sharing the cost of a collection. So, your Costco analogy is void.


Let's do the math.

The total I gave Brandon for all 16 items was $26,000.

So, Brandon Cifani was plotting to take George's $33,300 and give $26,000 to me, thus pocketing $7,300. And, he was going to keep four of the pens, worth several thousand dollars.
Do you consider a 28% profit unethical? Would it be wrong of me to buy a Parker 51 for $50 and sell it for $65 (a 30% profit)?

It's that "skipping over" "minutia" thing again. Brandon claimed that he was merely looking for someone to share the cost of the collection with him, because he couldn't afford the entire cost of the collection alone. Not only did Brandon himself never claim he was trying to buy the lot for resale to make a profit, he never even admitted that he would walk away with anything other than some of the pens. He probably believed he could get away with that claim because no one knew how much he was actually going to pay for the collection; it was not posted. That was a stupid mistake; add it to his collection. Again, you are attempting to invoke explanations and defenses that even Brandon himself never offered. Strange.


So now, in a desperate attempt to deny responsibility for his fraud, he has concocted yet another shameless lie, which is trivially exposed, as are so many of his lies.

I don't know if the cover-up is worse than the crime, but certainly if anyone had any doubt about the depths of Brandon Cifani's dishonesty and the emptiness of his apologies, this most recent falsehood should put those doubts to rest.
His lies and false information are certainly unethical. I don’t think I once disagreed with that.

It follows, then, that his lie about merely looking for someone to share the cost of the collection is unethical to you. You therefore agree that after being caught in his original lie -- that he owned the pens he was attempting to sell -- he crafted another lie in an attempt to explain why he did what he did.


Again, I question if your issue is with the kid making actual lies about his ownership, or is your issue with him turning a profit?




See "skipping over" "minutia", above. I'll restate for you in an attempt to avoid further reading errors: Brandon lied when he attempted to sell my pens to George Rimakis. He stated that he both owned and possessed the pens. That's fraud, by the way. Please let me know if you believe that attempting to sell something one claims to own but does not is not a fraudulent act. Once his fraud was exposed, Brandon fabricated another lie in an attempt to explain his first lie: he claimed he was simply looking for someone to buy into the collection with him. I explained, using arithmetic, why that claim was false.


As I previously stated, there is no place for lying when conducting an honest and ethical business transaction. I never once disagreed with that. However, one is an issue of legal and illegal activity. The other is your personal interpretation of what is and isn’t fair.


Brandon engaged in fraudulent activity. He attempted to sell goods he said were his, and that he said were in his possession, but they weren't his, and he did not possess them. Those are facts that even Brandon does not dispute. I never raised any issue of "what is and isn't fair." That is a frank straw man you have constructed.

I hope you read this post with care before responding; it's a timesaver.

--Daniel

[mmahany]

Since you’re putting words in my mouth, let’s save ourselves the trouble. I’d like to ask you a few simple questions:
1) Has this kid ever stolen money from you or anyone else?
2) Is there reasonable evidence to prove(or even suggest) he had the intention to steal money from you or anyone else?

They are simple yes or no questions. However, you’re welcome to provide a longer explanation after. If you can prove the either of those two questions are true I’ll happily admit I’m wrong. Those are the only two points I’m attempting to make. Not that lying is okay. Not that he never claimed to own the pens. Not that I think what he's doing is right.

Is he a thief or not? It's that simple

[Penne Stilografiche]

Since you’re putting words in my mouth, let’s save ourselves the trouble. I’d like to ask you a few simple questions:
1) Has this kid ever stolen money from you or anyone else?
2) Is there reasonable evidence to prove(or even suggest) he had the intention to steal money from you or anyone else?

They are simple yes or no questions. However, you’re welcome to provide a longer explanation after. If you can prove the either of those two questions are true I’ll happily admit I’m wrong. Those are the only two points I’m attempting to make. Not that lying is okay. Not that he never claimed to own the pens. Not that I think what he's doing is right.

Is he a thief or not? It's that simple

Hi,
Although you did not say the above directly to me, I still feel like I should answer you.

1) He has not stolen anything from me, but I can not answer for everyone else.

2) In a couple of pm's between me and other members of the FPN, I found out that Brandon, under the username "penister", had attempted to sell pens that he did not own. He tried to steal from 2 members (that I know of). He is a simply a lying thief.

Best Regards
Vincenzo

[kirchh]

Since you’re putting words in my mouth, ...
Back up your assertion that I misquoted you. If you fail to do so, you will be implicitly admitting that this charge is false.


let’s save ourselves the trouble. I’d like to ask you a few simple questions:
1) Has this kid ever stolen money from you or anyone else?
2) Is there reasonable evidence to prove(or even suggest) he had the intention to steal money from you or anyone else?

They are simple yes or no questions. However, you’re welcome to provide a longer explanation after. If you can prove the either of those two questions are true I’ll happily admit I’m wrong. Those are the only two points I’m attempting to make. Not that lying is okay. Not that he never claimed to own the pens. Not that I think what he's doing is right.

Is he a thief or not? It's that simple
Wrong on all counts. You specifically made the following point: That Brandon Cifani did not commit fraud, because he never claimed to own the pens he was offering for sale.

Your point was demolished by the fact that your premise was false. You asserted a false premise because you "skipped over" the central fact of the entire situation. For that, you have no one but yourself to blame.

Next, let's observe that you have not disputed a single factual assertion I have made. That is reasonably taken as agreement with those facts. You have also not disputed any of the conclusions I have drawn from those facts. That's progress, as it seems you now do not disagree that Brandon Cifani engaged in a fraud when he attempted to sell pens that he said he owned and possessed but that he actually neither owned nor possessed.

I will be happy to address your specific questions about the support I have for the positions I have taken and the claims I have made. Please provide a specific quote of mine where I asserted that Brandon Cifani stole money from me or from anyone else, or that he had the intention to do so. Once you produce that quote, I will be happy to discuss it with you.

Meanwhile, we can agree that my claim that Brandon Cifani engaged in fraud when he attempted to sell pens he didn't own or possess is accurate.

--Daniel

[mmahany]

Back up your assertion that I misquoted you. If you fail to do so, you will be implicitly admitting that this charge is false.

I didn’t once see him claim to own any of the pens he mentioned.

Those were my exact words that I chose very wisely. Notice how I said “I didn’t once see” instead of “Brandon never claimed.”

Since you want to continue bringing up the legality of all of this, my statement makes no claim of Brandon’s actions. It simply states that I had not seen any proof when I made my initial post that he had claimed ownership. When that proof was made available I directly stated that I had not seen that quote at the time:


I will openly state that I did skip over the quote about him owning the pens in question, but that still doesn’t change the point I am attempting to deliver.

If we were in a court of law, my statement would NEVER be considered a claim, nor would it hold any legal bearing in any way. It is no difference than saying "I did not see John Doe kill that woman" instead of "John Doe did not kill that woman." Those are two completely different statements.

Let me attempt to make this as perfectly clear as possible. I’m not sure if I can simplify this anymore
Facts:
1.) Brandon has engaged in fraudulent activity by lying about his age
2.) Brandon has engaged in fraudulent activity by lying about his ownership of the pens.
3.) Lying is considered fraudulent activity.
4.) Not disclosing information when you are not required to do so is not considered fraudulent.
5.) It is illegal to collect money for a transaction and not fulfill your obligation as a seller.
6.) It is not illegal to sell something before you buy it.
7.) However, you are required to fulfill your obligation as the seller.
8.) You are not required to disclose that you will be acting as a middle man up front without being asked.
9.) It is not illegal to profit from a transaction.






Brandon engaged in illegal activity. He attempted to sell goods he said were his, and that he said were in his possession, but they weren't his, and he did not possess them.
He has committed fraud by claiming ownership of pens that weren’t his.

It is perfectly legal to sell goods that you do not yet possess as long as you fulfill your seller obligation in a reason period of time. That is the entire premise behind a short-sell, online order drop ship, or any transaction conducted as a third party.

You are also not required to disclose your position in the transaction nor are you required to disclose your cost basis. However, lying about either would be considered fraudulent.



Please provide a specific quote of mine where I asserted that Brandon Cifani stole money from me or from anyone else, or that he had the intention to do so. Once you produce that quote, I will be happy to discuss it with you.
Did I ever accuse you of calling him a thief? While I HAVE NOT SEEN (that means it could exist but I personally have not viewed it with my own two eyes) you call him a thief. Others have made those accusations on several accounts. Libel is just as illegal as fraud. That statement is directed towards those who HAVE accused him of theft.


Since you are not calling him a thief, I’ll ask you to help me understand why this has upset you so greatly.

Are you truly so upset that a kid has lied about his age and lied about owning pens?

Unless I’m missing something, those are the only relevant issues you’re upset about. If he were 18 years old and bought the pens from you for $26k then sold them for $33k without claiming ownership, you would have been perfectly content with the transaction?

That of course would be perfectly legal. His statement about looking to share the cost of the collection is perfectly legitimate as long as he has not violated both agreements (when acting as the buyer and then as the seller). Had he delivered his obligation in both situations (which is sounds like he had the intention of doing), all parties would have been satisfied. You may not like it, but it’s a perfectly legitimate and legal way of conducting business.

He is providing a service by working as a middle man to both you the initial seller and George the ending buyer, and asking to be fairly compensated for his time, effort, and the risk he is assuming.


Again, I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm just asking for some transparency about what has truly upset you. I guess what throws me off is the fact that you felt the cost of the pens in question. It has no legal relevancy nor does it have much relevancy period.


The kid has lied and committed fraud as a result. I do not deny that fact for a second. However, what court is going to prosecute a minor for lying about his age, and lying about the ownership of a set of pens? In a court of law, you must establish intent. Do you honestly think he lied to maliciously hurt others? Would either lie have significantly affected the sale in any way? Was his intent to lie and then steal money from you and the prospective buyer? Or did he simply lie to make a sale?

Again, I question if his SMALL acts of fraud are truly your motives for making this thread, or if it's because a <18 year old kid found a way to make $7000 more off a sale than you planned to.

Here's the simple point I have been making all along
I do not deny that he has lied. That is wrong, unethical, and a strong example of poor judgement. Lying is considered fraudulent and can be a prosecutable offense. However, from the evidence made available to me, I do not see how it would have significantly affected either transaction. Had he conducted this transaction with the supervision of an adult, and not disclosed his ownership of the pens (instead of lying), it would have been a perfectly legitimate transaction.

He has a habit of choosing his words poorly......that's about all I see so far.

[Farmboy]

mmahany-

Do you realize that the pens Brandon was attempting to sell were in fact part of kirchh's collection. You may also not have read that the picture was embedded with attributes indicating that the pens were not-for-sale and that the ownership of the pens was clearly stated. The potential buyer noted the embedded data in the pictures and since the pen world is quite small, knew the owner-likely just by looking at the pens.

Also note that the potential buyer was told the pens came from Europe and not the real owner.

I doubt anyone actually cares if he was making money on the sale, the problem is deeper.

Since I along with several others were scammed out of a great deal of money from a reputable seller that chose to sell the same collection of pens to no less than 3 and likely 4 people, all being cheated out of the funds, I have an interest in this topic.

How about we play the game your way. Suppose you send someone a few pictures of your pens and that person decides to sell them. They get sold and money changes hands. You still have the pens. The buyer shows up on the boards showing pictures of the pens he didn't get. You show up and say they are yours. How does the buyer know are not part of the scam? In a few words, what would your reaction be? Note that you are not a long established member of the pen collecting community as compared to kirchh.

When done with that exercise, imagine that the seller of your pens has done this or attempted to do this on multiple occasions.

Remember your pens were never for sale, you were just sharing pictures of them.

Todd (aka Farmboy)

[kirchh]

I didn’t once see him claim to own any of the pens he mentioned.

Those were my exact words that I chose very wisely. Notice how I said “I didn’t once see” instead of “Brandon never claimed.”

I see. You "wisely" realized that you'd "skipped over" possible crucial information when you read the thread, so you included a qualifier when you attempted to make your point, so when it turned out you'd missed the central fact of the case, which utterly undermined your position, you could point out that you had included that disclaimer, so you couldn't be held to account for your position. I guess that was pretty wise.

Your failure to "once see" this central fact caused you to deliver a point that, it turns out, is unsupportable, now that you know you were wrong about Brandon's claim. The good news is that now you do not dispute that Brandon Cifani is a liar and engaged in fraud.


Since you want to continue bringing up the legality of all of this, my statement makes no claim of Brandon’s actions. It simply states that I had not seen any proof when I made my initial post that he had claimed ownership. When that proof was made available I directly stated that I had not seen that quote at the time:


I will openly state that I did skip over the quote about him owning the pens in question, but that still doesn’t change the point I am attempting to deliver.


Yet despite your discovery that you had formed your erroneous conclusion due to your sloppy reading of the facts of the case, you have failed to explicitly acknowledge that Brandon Cifani engaged in fraud. However, you do not dispute this, so we now seem to be in agreement on that point, and also that Brandon Cifani is a liar.


If we were in a court of law, my statement would NEVER be considered a claim, nor would it hold any legal bearing in any way. It is no difference than saying "I did not see John Doe kill that woman" instead of "John Doe did not kill that woman." Those are two completely different statements.
Sure, if you were in the room when John Doe killed the woman, but you weren't really paying attention.

Your statement here is most peculiar. We are not in a court of law, nor are you a subject of a charge. We've already established that you made a point predicated on your failure to actually read the essential information in the thread upon which you were commenting. At a minimum, it demonstrates an abysmal lack of thoroughness when reviewing written material and an irresponsibility in taking positions based on an (apparently known) inadequacy in reading and absorbing facts.

But now that you have realized that you missed the central fact that underlies my characterization of Brandon's behavior -- that he's a liar and engaged in fraud -- we no longer are in disagreement. Had you read my post with care the first time around, this entire digression could have been avoided, and you simply could have expressed your properly-founded position about Brandon's lying and fraud.



Let me attempt to make this as perfectly clear as possible. I’m not sure if I can simplify this anymore
Facts:
1.) Brandon has engaged in fraudulent activity by lying about his age
2.) Brandon has engaged in fraudulent activity by lying about his ownership of the pens.
3.) Lying is considered fraudulent activity.
Had you read my post with care to begin with, you could simply have posted your agreement with me right off the bat. But at least you have finally come around to stating that you agree with my opinion that Brandon Cifani is a liar and engaged in fraud. Thanks.



4.) Not disclosing information when you are not required to do so is not considered fraudulent.

Definitional. Are you addressing a specific position I have taken? If so, please present the quote. Otherwise, this is irrelevant, and represents a straw man argument. You have already agreed with my opinion that Brandon Cifani engaged in fraud by attempting to sell pens he said he owned and possessed but that he neither owned nor possessed.



5.) It is illegal to collect money for a transaction and not fulfill your obligation as a seller.
Are you addressing a specific claim I have made? If so, please present the quote. Otherwise, this is irrelevant.



6.) It is not illegal to sell something before you buy it.
Are you addressing a specific claim I have made? If so, please present the quote. Otherwise, this is irrelevant, and represents a straw man argument. You have already agreed with my opinion that Brandon Cifani engaged in fraud by attempting to sell pens he said he owned and possessed but that he neither owned nor possessed.




8.) You are not required to disclose that you will be acting as a middle man up front without being asked.

Are you addressing a specific claim I have made? If so, please present the quote. Otherwise, this is irrelevant, and represents a straw man argument. You have already agreed with my opinion that Brandon Cifani engaged in fraud by attempting to sell pens he said he owned and possessed but that he neither owned nor possessed.



9.) It is not illegal to profit from a transaction.

You are oddly obsessed with defending the concept of profit, yet I have never indicated any objection to that concept. Is this another phenomenon attributable to your selective reading habit, but in this case, it manifests itself as your reading things that are not there?

You have already agreed that Brandon Cifani is a liar and engaged in fraud. One of his lies -- offered after he was exposed -- was that he was merely trying to share the cost of a collection that he alone could not afford. You haven't disagreed with that finding. Why the fixation on defending the idea of selling things for more than one paid for them? Are you, perhaps, mixing up this topic with a different one? Your providing of a quote at which this point is directed would help clear this up.





Brandon engaged in fraudulent activity. He attempted to sell goods he said were his, and that he said were in his possession, but they weren't his, and he did not possess them.
He has committed fraud by claiming ownership of pens that weren’t his.

It is perfectly legal to sell goods that you do not yet possess as long as you fulfill your seller obligation in a reason period of time. That is the entire premise behind a short-sell, online order drop ship, or any transaction conducted as a third party.

You are also not required to disclose your position in the transaction nor are you required to disclose your cost basis. However, lying about either would be considered fraudulent.

Once again, you are arguing against positions I have not taken. That's called a "straw man" argument.

You have already agreed with my opinion that Brandon Cifani engaged in fraud. Why are you now disagreeing with a position I have not expressed?





Please provide a specific quote of mine where I asserted that Brandon Cifani stole money from me or from anyone else, or that he had the intention to do so. Once you produce that quote, I will be happy to discuss it with you.
Did I ever accuse you of calling him a thief? While I HAVE NOT SEEN (that means it could exist but I personally have not viewed it with my own two eyes) you call him a thief. Others have made those accusations on several accounts. Libel is just as illegal as fraud. That statement is directed towards those who HAVE accused him of theft.


Since you are not calling him a thief,
Thank you for admitting that your previous set of questions was directed against a position you know I did not express. You could have saved a round of posts had you actually read my original post with more care.


I’ll ask you to help me understand why this has upset you so greatly.

Loaded question fallacy. I'll ask you to help me understand why you stopped beating your wife. See how that works?



Are you truly so upset that a kid has lied about his age and lied about owning pens?
Have you truly stopped beating your wife? See above. You might want to invest in a book on logic, though a perusal of some of the web sites that discuss logical fallacies would be a great start.



Unless I’m missing something, those are the only relevant issues you’re upset about.
Yawn. Brandon Cifani is a liar and engaged in fraud. That's your position. I don't have any reason to believe you're "upset" about it, but we do agree on those points.


If he were 18 years old and bought the pens from you for $26k then sold them for $33k without claiming ownership, you would have been perfectly content with the transaction?
What a strange question. I buy and sell pens all the time. I sell pens to people who then resell them to others for more. Are you very new to this hobby?

Again, my post (which I'm not sure you've read in its entirety, given some of the things you've said), asserted that in my opinion, Brandon Cifani engaged in fraud. You (finally) agree with me. I'm unsure why you are repeatedly attempting to argue against points I haven't made. Maybe you can explain that.



That of course would be perfectly legal.
That darn straw man fallacy again. You really do need to supply the quote against which you are arguing if you want to attempt to engage in a logical discussion.


His statement about looking to share the cost of the collection is perfectly legitimate as long as he has not violated both agreements (when acting as the buyer and then as the seller).
False, if by "legitimate" you mean "true". Brandon, after being exposed as a fraudster, claimed he was merely trying to share the cost of the collection between two people. That was a frank lie he concocted in a failed attempt to explain why he engaged in fraud.


Had he delivered his obligation in both situations (which is sounds like he had the intention of doing), all parties would have been satisfied.
You've already agreed that Brandon Cifani is a liar and engaged in fraud. And, as I have explained, after his fraud was exposed, he lied again in an attempt to explain himself.

You and I agree: Brandon Cifani is a liar and engaged in fraud.


You may not like it, but it’s a perfectly legitimate and legal way of conducting business.
I'm not sure what the "it" is to which you refer. I haven't expressed a "like" or dislike of anything in particular. I have explained that Brandon Cifani is a liar and engaged in fraud.

And you have agreed.

Do you like fraud?


He is providing a service by working as a middle man to both you the initial seller and George the ending buyer, and asking to be fairly compensated for his time, effort, and the risk he is assuming.
Do you consider fraud to be a service?



Again, I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm just asking for some transparency about what has truly upset you.
I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm just asking for some transparency about your wife-beating.


I guess what throws me off is the fact that you felt the cost of the pens in question. It has no legal relevancy nor does it have much relevancy period.
You really do need to work on your reading comprehension (and your proofreading could use some touching up as well). I'll assume you meant, "what throws me off is the fact that you felt the cost of the pens in question was relevant."

The absolute cost of the pens was not relevant. What was relevant was that Brandon Cifani claimed that he was sharing the cost of the collection with George. An examination of the cost of the pens and the price he was charging revealed that he was lying about sharing the cost of the collection. Please re-read that explanation, and if the arithmetic confuses you, post back and I will go over it step-by-step for you.




The kid has lied and committed fraud as a result. I do not deny that fact for a second. However, what court is going to prosecute a minor for lying about his age, and lying about the ownership of a set of pens?
I don't understand your question. Are you taking the position that minors are not charged with fraud?

If you are interested in the answer to your question, please report Brandon Cifani to the police/FBI/DA, and report back how the case develops.

Of course, the central point is not how far a legal case will proceed, but that Brandon Cifani is a liar and engaged in fraud, in your view. Thanks again.


In a court of law, you must establish intent. Do you honestly think he lied to maliciously hurt others? Would either lie have significantly affected the sale in any way? Was his intent to lie and then steal money from you and the prospective buyer? Or did he simply lie to make a sale?
Your knowledge of American law is rather tenuous, to say the least. The intent that would need to be established is the intent to deceive. You have already agreed that Brandon Cifani engaged in fraud, which includes that intent. As for your characterization that he "simply lied to make a sale," with the attendant implication that such a lie is harmless, I have a feeling your future customer base just declined significantly.



Again, I question if his SMALL acts of fraud are truly your motives for making this thread, ...
How ironic that you question my motives for making this thread. Do you know Brandon Cifani?


or if it's because a <18 year old kid found a way to make $7000 more off a sale than you planned to.
Must be that "skipping over" shortcoming again. Could you please provide the quote(s) that show that Brandon actually sold the pens for $33,300? Now, if you can't show that Brandon Cifani "found a way to make $7000 more off a sale than I planned to," you'll be coming back here to retract that assertion. As a person of integrity, I'm sure you will do that so you don't leave misstatements on the record.




Here's the simple point I have been making all along
I do not deny that he has lied. That is wrong, unethical, and a strong example of poor judgement. Lying is considered fraudulent and can be a prosecutable offense. However, from the evidence made available to me, I do not see how it would have significantly affected either transaction. Had he conducted this transaction with the supervision of an adult, and not disclosed his ownership of the pens (instead of lying), it would have been a perfectly legitimate transaction.
Counterfactual. First, let's refresh your memory: You have agreed that Brandon Cifani engaged in fraud. You now say that without the fraud, there would have been no fraud. Not a terrifically insightful observation.


He has a habit of choosing his words poorly......that's about all I see so far.
Incorrect. What you see is that he repeatedly lies and engages in fraud, by your own admission. "Choosing words poorly" means making low-quality decisions about which words to use to express oneself, and has nothing to do with lying, which is the intentional stating of falsehoods.

Brandon wrote, "I sent you some pictures of a recent overseas pen collection that I bought.... As for shipping, I was lucky enough to get the package personally shipped with a secured delivery which was quite expensive, but well worth it.” Apparently, in your world, that's an example of "choosing words poorly."

Remind me never to do business with you.

--Daniel

[mmahany]

mmahany-

Do you realize that the pens Brandon was attempting to sell were in fact part of kirchh's collection. You may also not have read that the picture was embedded with attributes indicating that the pens were not-for-sale and that the ownership of the pens was clearly stated. The potential buyer noted the embedded data in the pictures and since the pen world is quite small, knew the owner-likely just by looking at the pens.

Also note that the potential buyer was told the pens came from Europe and not the real owner.

I doubt anyone actually cares if he was making money on the sale, the problem is deeper.

Since I along with several others were scammed out of a great deal of money from a reputable seller that chose to sell the same collection of pens to no less than 3 and likely 4 people, all being cheated out of the funds, I have an interest in this topic.

How about we play the game your way. Suppose you send someone a few pictures of your pens and that person decides to sell them. They get sold and money changes hands. You still have the pens. The buyer shows up on the boards showing pictures of the pens he didn't get. You show up and say they are yours. How does the buyer know are not part of the scam? In a few words, what would your reaction be? Note that you are not a long established member of the pen collecting community as compared to kirchh.

When done with that exercise, imagine that the seller of your pens has done this or attempted to do this on multiple occasions.

Remember your pens were never for sale, you were just sharing pictures of them.

Todd (aka Farmboy)
I am making a few assumptions on what I’m about to say so take it for what it is:

1.) Yes I do realize that Brandon was attempting to sell pens that, at the time, were part of Kirchh’s collection. It looked to me like Brandon had the intention of buying the pens from Kirchh and reselling them to George. If that was not the case, please inform me of where I am wrong. Brandon lied about the collection being his, once again I agree with that fact. However, it seemed Brandon had the intention of delivering his olbigation as a buyer/seller.

2.) If Kirchh had an issue with Brandon reusing the same pictures, he should have filed a “cease and desist letter.” The Fair Use Doctrine allows for limited and reasonable use of media as long as the use does not interfere with the owner’s rights. In regards to the picture in question, Brandon was quoted to say “here is a picture of a recent overseas collection I bought.” While his lie of claiming ownership is in fact fraud, he has not claimed ownership of the pictures. Therefore, I see no sign of illegal activity with Brandon reusing the same photo.

3.) Again, I am not denying that Brandon has lied about his ownership of the pens. On several occasions I have directly noted this. I’m not sure why people cannot grasp that fact.

4.) You were scammed out of money for items you did not receive. I completely empathize with that. I have a personal hatred for people who STEAL from others. That’s why I specifically asked if Brandon had in fact STOLEN from people before. Fraud is a different term than Theft.

5.) Kirschh mentioned that he planned to sell the pens for $26k. Is that not a fact? Are you insinuating that Brandon was attempting to collect money for a set of pens he never planned to deliver? If that is the case, I am in 100% agreement that he should be prosecuted and at the mercy of the justice system.

6.) As far as how I would feel in your hypothetical situation- the buyer has no way of knowing, unfortunately. However, speaking from a legal standpoint, Brandon has not broken the law. Again, Kirchh should have filed a cease and desist letter if he did not want his pictures re-distributed. These sorts of things pop up all the time, and it has happened to me personally. I saw an ebay seller reusing one of my pictures several years ago. Unfortunately, I had uploaded the picture to Photobucket which consequently caused me to lose my ownership privileges. Poor practice on the seller’s part, yes. Illegal, no.
7.) How do I become a long established member of the pen community? Please tell me how that has any bearing at all on my contribution to conducting ethical and legal business practices. Is there also a “Federal Pen Court” I’m not aware of that has a different set of laws? I respected everything you said until you made that point. It serves zero purpose.

I’ve been buying and selling on internet forums for almost 15 years now. I have over 50,000 (yes you read that right) posts between the various internet forums I post on. Last year I bought and sold close to 200 pens and I had about 500 total internet business transactions. I have been an ebay member for over 10 years. Last year I had $20k+ worth of pen related Paypal transactions. This year I have over $30k. In my 15 year of conducting business both in person and online, I have never had an unsatisfied buyer. Does that give me more entitlement than others to voice my opinion? No. It gives me more EXPERIENCE with this particular situation. I didn't bring up my online business history, and neither should anyone else. It's pointless.

I conduct business with a strong set of ethics. My business practices should in no way be compared to Brandon’s. Plenty of FPGeek members have done business with me, and I could easily build a list of close to 100 members who will vouch for my upstanding reputation when conducting business through the pen community.

I think Brandon needs to be banned for his long history of lying. I was never in disagreement with that point. However, I see some very nasty words being used in this thread and the others that were linked. People are calling him a thief, mentally unstable, saying he's running a Ponzi scheme, and making seemingly untrue statements. He's a d**n kid. He's not a 40 year old Nigerian scammer trying to steal money from 90 year old ladies. He's a misguided CHILD that needs to learn that lying is fraudulent and what he's doing is wrong. However, I honestly believe he had the intention of delivering his promise to the prospective buyer.



I'm repeating myself over and over again, but it seems that many of you think I'm on Brandon's side.

Liar- Yes
Fraudulent claims- Yes
Scammer- I haven't seen proof of it yet
Thief- I haven't seen proof of it yet

[kirchh]

2.) If Kirchh had an issue with Brandon reusing the same pictures, he should have filed a “cease and desist letter.” The Fair Use Doctrine allows for limited and reasonable use of media as long as the use does not interfere with the owner’s rights. In regards to the picture in question, Brandon was quoted to say “here is a picture of a recent overseas collection I bought.” While his lie of claiming ownership is in fact fraud, he has not claimed ownership of the pictures. Therefore, I see no sign of illegal activity with Brandon reusing the same photo.

"Skipping over", second variant (reading things that haven't been written). Once again, you argue against a claim no one has made; in this case, that my copyrighted picture was distributed illegally and that I had an issue with same. As I explained earlier, this is called a "straw man" argument and represents a sort of a logical fallacy.


Liar- Yes
Fraudulent claims- Yes
.
He has committed fraud by claiming ownership of pens that weren’t his

Compare with...


some of his selling tactics are misguided
.
He has a habit of choosing his words poorly......that's about all I see so far.

--Daniel

[dr.grace]

Sorry, folks. This argument is really getting tedious, at least for someone like me who is not involved. Perhaps you could just decide to let each other be wrong?

[kirchh]

Sorry, folks. This argument is really getting tedious, at least for someone like me who is not involved. Perhaps you could just decide to let each other be wrong?

I'm not sure it makes sense for someone who is not involved in a discussion to ask those who are participating to stop having it. Couldn't you just not read it?

--Daniel

[dr.grace]

It makes perfect sense. I came to this thread for information, and I was grateful to read your posting and some others. (Perhaps I'm not alone in this?) Now I find myself scrolling down through some tiresome bickering, in hopes of seeing more useful information or at least some entertainment. But I suppose now you're right--I should just move on to other threads. Carry on.

[sloegin]

To echo what some of the FPB members have said. This was not the first time this happened. It was an ongoing thing and Brandon was given ample opportunity to mend his ways.
Here (http://fountainpenboard.com/forum/index.php?/topic/3474-waterman-12-variations/) is a thread in which he tried to sell a pen to the person that had already purchased it!

[mmahany]

To echo what some of the FPB members have said. This was not the first time this happened. It was an ongoing thing and Brandon was given ample opportunity to mend his ways.
Here (http://fountainpenboard.com/forum/index.php?/topic/3474-waterman-12-variations/) is a thread in which he tried to sell a pen to the person that had already purchased it!
The irony: "In the reply to the inquiry, I lied and said I still had it, and I would be open to offers." Post #43

[Jon Szanto]

Cherry-picking data. What a concept.

[mmahany]

Cherry-picking data. What a concept.

I've lost interest in this thread for the most part so say what you will. You won't hear a single thing from me after this.

It's absolutely hilarious to me that there are two 40+ post threads going right now about a kid who has yet to steal anyone's money. Are people's lives so sad that they have to worry about such trivial things? We can all sleep a little better at night knowing that a teenage kid no longer can lie about his age and his pen colection on FP Geeks.....thank you for saving the day.

He's a kid so he has a slightly better excuse for acting so foolish. Some of you are half a century older than him. I see new members and kids getting bashed every day on fountain pen boards because they make mistakes. Some are more serious than others, but instead of teaching these new members how to act or conduct themselves, you ostracize, badger, and embarrass these kids. Most of these kids look up to many of you and in many cases they're just seeking your approval. In many ways you're no better than the common bully.

It's absolutely despicable that I have to lecture a bunch of grown a** men. Apparently all of you have forgotten what it was like to be young and dumb.

What this kid did is about the equivalent of jaywalking. If you want to fight crime in your retirement years then go volunteer as your community watchman.

I'll leave it at this: Many of you may be in your 60s and 70s, but in many ways you need to grow up yourselves.

[sloegin]

To echo what some of the FPB members have said. This was not the first time this happened. It was an ongoing thing and Brandon was given ample opportunity to mend his ways.
Here (http://fountainpenboard.com/forum/index.php?/topic/3474-waterman-12-variations/) is a thread in which he tried to sell a pen to the person that had already purchased it!
The irony: "In the reply to the inquiry, I lied and said I still had it, and I would be open to offers." Post #43
George is the one that sold the pen to the present owner. The present owner even started a thread about its acquisition. All before the thread I linked to and before Brandon tried to move the pen between the original dealer and buyer.

[kirchh]

It's absolutely hilarious to me that there are two 40+ post threads going right now about a kid who has yet to steal anyone's money.
Yet rather than ignore these "hilarious" lengthy threads, you add to them. Hilarious.


Are people's lives so sad that they have to worry about such trivial things?
What's your answer? You've expended considerable time posting in this thread. It follows that you believe your life is sad. How strange.


We can all sleep a little better at night knowing that a teenage kid no longer can lie about his age and his pen colection on FP Geeks.....thank you for saving the day.
I assume you are being sarcastic, and that you would have preferred not to learn that Brandon Cifani is a habitual liar and engages in fraud. But surely you don't begrudge other people's learning that information, do you?


He's a kid so he has a slightly better excuse for acting so foolish.
Just to be accurate, Brandon didn't act "foolish"; foolish would be thinking you can, say, drive the last 100 miles with the needle on empty. Brandon acted dishonestly, which is quite different.


Some of you are half a century older than him. I see new members and kids getting bashed every day on fountain pen boards because they make mistakes. Some are more serious than others, but instead of teaching these new members how to act or conduct themselves, you ostracize, badger, and embarrass these kids. Most of these kids look up to many of you and in many cases they're just seeking your approval. In many ways you're no better than the common bully.
Yet another straw man argument. Do you feel that you can't make your case without resorting to this sort of fallacious reasoning? That would indicate that your case cannot, in fact, be made.


It's absolutely despicable that I have to lecture a bunch of grown a** men.
But your original objection to the characterization of Brandon Cifani as engaging is fraud was completely due to your skipping over the crucial, central fact of the case. After that was pointed out to you, you completely agreed with my opinion that Brandon was a liar and engaged in fraud, and you did not dispute a single word of my original post.

So what is there to lecture me about?


Apparently all of you have forgotten what it was like to be young and dumb.
Again, you are attempting to re-cast Brandon Cifani's actions as being the result of a lack of intelligence (putting aside the matter of whether some of us were ever dumb; in that regard, you should speak only for yourself). Brandon Cifani did not act as he did because of a lack of intelligence (though that clearly factored into his getting caught). He acted as he did because he's a dishonest person. So, your statement, to at least apply to the present case, would have to read, "Apparently all of you have forgotten what it was like to be young and dishonest." Again, you should speak only for yourself.


What this kid did is about the equivalent of jaywalking.
Do you jaywalk?


If you want to fight crime in your retirement years then go volunteer as your community watchman.
Why are you so upset? Transparency, etc. etc.


I'll leave it at this: Many of you may be in your 60s and 70s, but in many ways you need to grow up yourselves.
You don't actually know George Rimakis, do you?

--Daniel

[Farmboy]

I'll leave it at this: Many of you may be in your 60s and 70s, but in many ways you need to grow up yourselves.
You don't actually know George Rimakis, do you?

--Daniel
Well said. On so many levels, well said.

[Jon Szanto]

I'll leave it at this: Many of you may be in your 60s and 70s, but in many ways you need to grow up yourselves.
I'll not be lectured by someone who knows about 25% of the story and background. Had you taken the time to understand the history of this kid (especially by following the links to FPB), all of his missteps, the countless efforts to help him get back on track, to be followed by more chicanery, you might have a different opinion. You would have seen professionals from many walks of life, who happen to share an interest in fountain pens (and many of them prominent in that arena), bending over backwards to see if a promising young man could have his sensibilities adjusted. Instead, you choose to be lazy and offer discourse without a grasp of the entire picture.

Thankfully, I don't turn sixty for a couple more weeks. It allows me to simply tell you to fuck off with all the ad hominem crap, still safe in my youth.

[Nonsensical]

Cherry-picking data. What a concept.

I've lost interest in this thread for the most part so say what you will. You won't hear a single thing from me after this.

It's absolutely hilarious to me that there are two 40+ post threads going right now about a kid who has yet to steal anyone's money. Are people's lives so sad that they have to worry about such trivial things? We can all sleep a little better at night knowing that a teenage kid no longer can lie about his age and his pen colection on FP Geeks.....thank you for saving the day.

He's a kid so he has a slightly better excuse for acting so foolish. Some of you are half a century older than him. I see new members and kids getting bashed every day on fountain pen boards because they make mistakes. Some are more serious than others, but instead of teaching these new members how to act or conduct themselves, you ostracize, badger, and embarrass these kids. Most of these kids look up to many of you and in many cases they're just seeking your approval. In many ways you're no better than the common bully.

It's absolutely despicable that I have to lecture a bunch of grown a** men. Apparently all of you have forgotten what it was like to be young and dumb.

What this kid did is about the equivalent of jaywalking. If you want to fight crime in your retirement years then go volunteer as your community watchman.

I'll leave it at this: Many of you may be in your 60s and 70s, but in many ways you need to grow up yourselves.
Whilst I can see that you mean well, having actually read all of the topics with regards to Brandon's behaviour (including the relevant ones over at FPB, which are QUITE extensive), I disagree with your conclusions.

Brandon was given quite a number of opportunities to change the way he behaved, having made multiple 'mistakes', if you would, over a period of several months. Each time he was called out on any inappropriate behaviour or decisions, he would apologise, and promise not to do it again. However, for reasons that I can't comprehend, he simply chose to continue to make the same types of mistakes over and over again. Given the number of times he was forgiven and how people really tried to reason with and teach him, I don't think it serves any purpose to continue forgiving him and giving him any more chances.

Forgiveness is important, but sometimes we need a bit of tough love and reality as well. At 21, I'm hardly in my 60s or 70s, but even I've come to recognise that sometimes I need a kick up the arse (excuse the language), rather than a shoulder to cry on. I hope that Brandon will learn from this, but given his history, I have my doubts...

It is one thing to be young. It is another to be dumb. If you make a mistake, and you don't learn anything from it, you can blame it on youth. If you make the same mistake again, you may be a little slow...if you continue making the same mistakes over and over again, I'm pretty sure you're just dumb, not young.

Oh, and just to clarify, I don't believe he actually committed a crime - there isn't enough proof for me to come to that conclusion. However, the fact that he lied on multiple occasions in order to gain an advantage, it does raise very alarming questions with regards to his integrity and his intentions.

A person's reputation has to be earned. Until Brandon Cifani behaves in a way that deserves respect, I think that the way people in the FP community are treating him is perfect reasonable and understandable.

[aschup]

Top-notch concern trolling by mmahany. Bravo.

[david i]

I've lost interest in this thread for the most part so say what you will. You won't hear a single thing from me after this.



Tactic 27 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "When all clearly is lost, announce, 'I'm outta here'"...

Just sayin'...

[david i]

For those interested, here is the FPB aspect of the game, as posted by George. A pinned thread, the first in Elements of Collecting. After the DC Pen Show I'll dig up the first key Brandon Scam long preceding this one, in which- most ironically- he attempted to sell me a rare pen, one which I already actually owned (the pen itself, not just the type).

http://fountainpenboard.com/forum/index.php?/topic/4474-brandon-cifani-brando090-is-engaged-in-fraud/

regards

david

[79spitfire]

Sounds like this kid has a glorious future on a sleazy second-hand-car-lot.....

Or in politics...

[Laura N]

Just FYI, there's a thread on FPN entitled Brandon is Back (http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/253025-brandon-is-back/).

[mmahany]

Once again, I see terms such as “Steal” and “Scam” used in that FPN thread.

It has been well documented that Brandon has engaged in fraud. However, is there proof that he has stolen money or scammed anyone? For the record, I am asking for proof rather than denying the situation.

I realize that many people on this site are from other countries. However, here in the U.S. we abide by the “Innocent until proven guilty” method of thought.

To put it simply: Fraud is a crime, and it is punishable by law. However, fraud is not theft. Furthermore, theft is not assault, and assault is not murder.
I say that to make a point. Are we dealing with a hardened criminal looking to steal money from the pen community? Or are we dealing with an individual who has made mistakes of ignorance largely due to his age?

I give credit to Kirchh for his comments in this thread. I don’t believe I’ve ever seen him mention Brandon being a thief. The same cannot be said for others.

If Brandon is a thief, then I ask for proof to be made public. If there is none, then let’s get our terminology correct. Fraud is not theft. Brandon has deceived and lied about many things. However, has he ever failed to deliver his obligation as either a buyer or seller? That is how I personally define a thief.

This situation is reminiscent of the Johnny Manziel case (for those who follow college football). The kid has made countless mistakes, but in the end, I believe those mistakes stem from the fact that he is a kid and has a lot to learn rather than his lack of moral fiber and character.

Once again, my opinion on what's right and wrong in this matter is irrelevant. I am simply asking for clarity of the situation.

Brandon has engaged in fraud and that proof has been cited.

If Brandon has also engaged in theft, I ask for proof before labeling him as a thief.

[kirchh]

You previously wrote,


He has a habit of choosing his words poorly......that's about all I see so far.

Now, though no new information has been presented, you say,


It has been well documented that Brandon has engaged in fraud.... Fraud is a crime, and it is punishable by law.... Brandon has deceived and lied about many things....Brandon has engaged in fraud and that proof has been cited.

I guess that's a close as we'll get to seeing a retraction from you.


Brandon has deceived and lied about many things. However, has he ever failed to deliver his obligation as either a buyer or seller? That is how I personally define a thief.

Yes. Brandon has repeatedly failed to deliver his obligation as a buyer. He has committed to purchasing items, and then failed to pay for them, which is an obligation of a buyer after committing to a purchase. Therefore, by your own definition, you consider him a thief.

--Daniel

[spotted and speckled]

Cherry-picking data. What a concept.

I've lost interest in this thread for the most part so say what you will. You won't hear a single thing from me after this.



Clearly, you have not lost interest. You came back for more.

BTW, A mistake is something you do once, by accident. A mistake is not planned.

[mmahany]

I did not revisit this thread to argue with anyone. However, I'm happy to do so through private messages.

The kid is obviously still selling pens so nothing has been accomplished.

Look at it however you'd like, but FPGeeks is an online community. We all contribute in different ways. You don't have to agree with me, but the majority of my posts have substance behind them. I posted again, not to have a conversation of "right and wrong," but rather to do something about this.

I offered my opinions on this matter. Those opinions are no longer relevant to the topic at hand. I'm moving on from them and I ask that the rest of you do too.

If the goal is to bash this kid. We have successfully done so, and that mission has been accomplished.
If it's deeper than that and the goal is to get this kid to stop selling within the pen community then there is more work to do.

Whether we agree or not means nothing to me personally or the topic at hand. However, this thread has accomplished nothing to this point aside from name calling and bickering.

I take responsibility for contributing to that, but now I'm taking responsibility for doing something about it.

I ask that as a "community" we consolidate the facts of this situation and make them publicly aware. Then, as a community, we work together to decide a plan of action in order to make sure this doesn't happen again.

[kirchh]

I did not revisit this thread to argue with anyone. However, I'm happy to do so through private messages.

The kid is obviously still selling pens so nothing has been accomplished.

Look at it however you'd like, but FPGeeks is an online community. We all contribute in different ways. You don't have to agree with me, but the majority of my posts have substance behind them. I posted again, not to have a conversation of "right and wrong," but rather to do something about this.

I offered my opinions on this matter. Those opinions are no longer relevant to the topic at hand. I'm moving on from them and I ask that the rest of you do too.

If the goal is to bash this kid. We have successfully done so, and that mission has been accomplished.
If it's deeper than that and the goal is to get this kid to stop selling within the pen community then there is more work to do.

Whether we agree or not means nothing to me personally or the topic at hand. However, this thread has accomplished nothing to this point aside from name calling and bickering.

I take responsibility for contributing to that, but now I'm taking responsibility for doing something about it.

I ask that as a "community" we consolidate the facts of this situation and make them publicly aware. Then, as a community, we work together to decide a plan of action in order to make sure this doesn't happen again.
Complete nonsense. Your previous post said nothing at all about some grand plan to keep Brandon Cifani from defrauding people in the future.


The kid is obviously still selling pens so nothing has been accomplished.

Completely false. I am stunned by how illogical this statement is.

- Where is he actually selling pens?

- Where is he attempting to sell pens?

- Are people being deceived by him at the same rate as before this thread was posted?

It is likely that hundreds of people have been alerted to Brandon's long history of deception. Those people are far less likely than they would have been to be taken in by him. You are included in that group, by the way. You're welcome. Yet, you claim that nothing has been accomplished. Absurd.


this thread has accomplished nothing to this point aside from name calling and bickering.

See above. You're wrong, and you yourself are proof of your wrongness.


I ask that as a "community" we consolidate the facts of this situation and make them publicly aware. Then, as a community, we work together to decide a plan of action in order to make sure this doesn't happen again.

How about issuing a post on a couple of message boards with lots of details of Brandon's history of deception, complete with links, followed by a series of follow-ups that add in more information as it becomes known?

Oh, wait, that's what this is.

--Daniel

[Penne Stilografiche]

Hi mmahany,

He has just attempted to steal money through ebay by making false claims about a pen he purchased. A member of the FPN saw my post about Cifani in the "Brandon is Back" thread and sent me this:


Hi,
After my post here ( http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/253025-brandon-is-back/) I just wanted to send you some more informations about Brandon Cifani, that I hope, could be usefull to you and other people to avoid problems.

He bought me a pen on Ebay (with his new profile : reviewerjeff). As I didn't know who was hidding being, I didn't pay attention. He paid me the pen correctly, using a Paypal address at the name of Yvonne Cifani (yvonnecifani@yahoo.com) and after receiving the pen, claim for a refund, giving me different false informations (pen arrived broken, cap has unscrewed during travel and nib has been bend, pen hasn't been properly discribed, ...).
After a few hard exchanges of message (he had started a claim on Ebay and Paypal) he told me he was spannish and his real name was Brandeno Rudguro (!!!!!), and many other lies.
His postal address (where I sent the pen) is : 485 Lakes Edge Dr / Oxford, MI 48371-5226

He has stop his claim now (as I didn't want to refund him of course, and that I sent him the links towards the internet pages you made about his misdeeds, and told him I knew who he was).

I really think this boy is mad, ... insane, ... crazy.

Hope this can help you somehow.

regards,


This is just another crime Cifani has committed, the point of this thread (as well as many other) is to warn people of Cifani's wrongdoings, not the "bash" him.

Regards,
Vincenzo

[tandaina]

Oh for heaven sakes. I know Oxford Michigan, I used to live in Lake Orion! Weird, small world.

[mmahany]

This is just another crime Cifani has committed, the point of this thread (as well as many other) is to warn people of Cifani's wrongdoings, not the "bash" him.

Vincenzo, your experience with Brandon is exactly what I asked to be made public.

Once again, I revisited this thread in order to consolidate the facts and then do something about it. Assumptions, opinions, or interpretations are not facts and consequently can easily be argued for or against.

Facts cannot be disputed. You had a situation with Brandon that involved him trying to steal money from you. A claim was filed and then consequently dropped. That situation that cannot be disputed aside from the fact that it either did or did not happen.

[Penne Stilografiche]

This is just another crime Cifani has committed, the point of this thread (as well as many other) is to warn people of Cifani's wrongdoings, not the "bash" him.

Vincenzo, your experience with Brandon is exactly what I asked to be made public.

Once again, I revisited this thread in order to consolidate the facts and then do something about it. Assumptions, opinions, or interpretations are not facts and consequently can easily be argued for or against.

Facts cannot be disputed. You had a situation with Brandon that involved him trying to steal money from you. A claim was filed and then consequently dropped. That situation that cannot be disputed aside from the fact that it either did or did not happen.

He did not try to steal money from me but another member on the FPN.

[jar]

Address is "John Cifani" and looks like also PREMIER JANITORIAL SERVICES (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&ved=0CDkQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fstart.cortera.com%2Fcompany%2Fres earch%2Fk8p0rum3r%2Fpremier-janitorial-services%2F&ei=3a9AUs2qLaXt2wXBjoCwBg&usg=AFQjCNFlPgfF3IRJ8Nm5EbCWto94l6_hEA&sig2=FPW5g3i4yvRhc10F-RR0kQ&bvm=bv.52434380,d.b2I) .

[Penne Stilografiche]

He was just kicked off of ebay again.

[kirchh]

This is just another crime Cifani has committed, the point of this thread (as well as many other) is to warn people of Cifani's wrongdoings, not the "bash" him.

Vincenzo, your experience with Brandon is exactly what I asked to be made public.

Are you for real?

This thread started with a recounting of experiences with Brandon's dishonesty, and with my experience being made public.

The thread about which you said, "this thread has accomplished nothing to this point aside from name calling and bickering."

Amazing.

--Daniel

[kirchh]

I realize that many people on this site are from other countries. However, here in the U.S. we abide by the “Innocent until proven guilty” method of thought.

Wrong. Here in the U.S., we don't "abide" by any "method of thought". You appear to have mixed up a principle of jurisprudence with some nonexistent edict regarding how we must think. Weird.


To put it simply: Fraud is a crime, and it is punishable by law. However, fraud is not theft. Furthermore, theft is not assault, and assault is not murder.

Right -- you equate fraud with jaywalking (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/2595-Brandon-Cifani-is-engaged-in-fraud?p=41622&viewfull=1#post41622). At least you are open about it.


I say that to make a point. Are we dealing with a hardened criminal looking to steal money from the pen community? Or are we dealing with an individual who has made mistakes of ignorance largely due to his age?

Nice false choice fallacy. The answers are no and no.

A "mistake" is an error made with sincere intent. Mistakes, when one discovers them, are corrected in the interest of the one making the mistake, who regrets the error.

What Brandon did -- and does -- does not qualify as a "mistake", except in the sense that after being caught, he might regret having put himself in the position of having his dishonesty exposed. And Brandon's lies are not acts of "ignorance", as your long-running apologia makes them out to be. Of what is he ignorant? That lying is dishonest? That's a near-tautology.


I ask that as a "community" we consolidate the facts of this situation and make them publicly aware. Then, as a community, we work together to decide a plan of action in order to make sure this doesn't happen again.

How noble.

Is someone posting under your username without your knowing about it? Because a few posts ago, someone using your handle wrote,


If you want to fight crime in your retirement years then go volunteer as your community watchman.

You should find out who that is and have the argument with him.

--Daniel

[mmahany]

Daniel,
It seems you now have an agenda to prove me wrong or get me caught up in my words. If this is what you are seeking at this point:
-I retract all statements
-I am wrong and you are right
-You have won the internet and I have lost
-This thread has accomplished exactly what you wanted it to

Now that those are out in the open. Can we move along?

[kirchh]

Daniel,
It seems you now have an agenda to prove me wrong or get me caught up in my words. If this is what you are seeking at this point:
-I retract all statements
-I am wrong and you are right
-You have won the internet and I have lost
-This thread has accomplished exactly what you wanted it to

Now that those are out in the open. Can we move along?

You're terribly intellectually dishonest. Resorting to this sort of puerile tactic only underscores your unwillingness to take responsibility for your previous statements.

You seem completely oblivious to the irony of your statement, "this thread has accomplished nothing to this point aside from name calling and bickering." This thread went on positively and productively for almost three months and four pages before you first posted in it -- and initiated the bickering.

--Daniel

[Sailor Kenshin]

We still need to watch how scammers behave, what new names they assume, and be on guard. Those things never change.

[Penne Stilografiche]

Interesting, especially the last sentence...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LOT-OF-3-WATERMAN-S-GOLD-FILLED-OVERLAY-FOUNTAIN-PEN-FOR-PARTS-0572-0552-05421-2-/181224854495?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a31d7d3df

It seems ebay has shut down all of his accounts, hopefully they blocked his ip address so he can no longer be a threat through ebay.

[david i]

Cherry-picking data. What a concept.

I've lost interest in this thread for the most part so say what you will. You won't hear a single thing from me after this.



Clearly, you have not lost interest. You came back for more.

SNIP .

Indeed, "coming back for more" after declaring "I'm out of here" is Flourish #2 on Tactic 27 from the Losing Debater's Manual. Always it is a charmer :)

regards

david

[david i]

I am making a few assumptions on what I’m about to say so take it for what it is:

1.) Yes I do realize that Brandon was attempting to sell pens that, at the time, were part of Kirchh’s collection. It looked to me like Brandon had the intention of buying the pens from Kirchh and reselling them to George. If that was not the case, please inform me of where I am wrong. Brandon lied about the collection being his, once again I agree with that fact. However, it seemed Brandon had the intention of delivering his olbigation as a buyer/seller.

Irrelevant. The pens were not his to sell.


2.) If Kirchh had an issue with Brandon reusing the same pictures, he should have filed a “cease and desist letter.” The Fair Use Doctrine allows for limited and reasonable use of media as long as the use does not interfere with the owner’s rights. In regards to the picture in question, Brandon was quoted to say “here is a picture of a recent overseas collection I bought.” While his lie of claiming ownership is in fact fraud, he has not claimed ownership of the pictures. Therefore, I see no sign of illegal activity with Brandon reusing the same photo.

Straw Man. Claiming ownership of the photos was not the issue in play.


3.) Again, I am not denying that Brandon has lied about his ownership of the pens. On several occasions I have directly noted this. I’m not sure why people cannot grasp that fact.

Disingenuous. You initially denied awareness of this and later failed to recognize its role in the fraud. People grasp that.



4.) You were scammed out of money for items you did not receive. I completely empathize with that. I have a personal hatred for people who STEAL from others. That’s why I specifically asked if Brandon had in fact STOLEN from people before. Fraud is a different term than Theft.

Straw Man.


5.) Kirschh mentioned that he planned to sell the pens for $26k. Is that not a fact? Are you insinuating that Brandon was attempting to collect money for a set of pens he never planned to deliver? If that is the case, I am in 100% agreement that he should be prosecuted and at the mercy of the justice system.

Irrelevant. Brandon could not deliver the pens. Anymore than he could deliver the expensive pen he tried to sell me, the picture shared with me of that pen, the one I already had in my collection, purchased by me earlier from the person whose photo Brandon... borrowed. Just sayin'...


6.) As far as how I would feel in your hypothetical situation- the buyer has no way of knowing, unfortunately. However, speaking from a legal standpoint, Brandon has not broken the law. Again, Kirchh should have filed a cease and desist letter if he did not want his pictures re-distributed. These sorts of things pop up all the time, and it has happened to me personally. I saw an ebay seller reusing one of my pictures several years ago. Unfortunately, I had uploaded the picture to Photobucket which consequently caused me to lose my ownership privileges. Poor practice on the seller’s part, yes. Illegal, no.

Wrong. Endeavoring to sell pens he cannot deliver, such as my Duofold Demonstrator...



7.) How do I become a long established member of the pen community? Please tell me how that has any bearing at all on my contribution to conducting ethical and legal business practices. Is there also a “Federal Pen Court” I’m not aware of that has a different set of laws? I respected everything you said until you made that point. It serves zero purpose.

Irrelevant.


I’ve been buying and selling on internet forums for almost 15 years now. I have over 50,000 (yes you read that right) posts between the various internet forums I post on. Last year I bought and sold close to 200 pens and I had about 500 total internet business transactions. I have been an ebay member for over 10 years. Last year I had $20k+ worth of pen related Paypal transactions. This year I have over $30k. In my 15 year of conducting business both in person and online, I have never had an unsatisfied buyer. Does that give me more entitlement than others to voice my opinion? No. It gives me more EXPERIENCE with this particular situation. I didn't bring up my online business history, and neither should anyone else. It's pointless.

Irrelevant.


I conduct business with a strong set of ethics. My business practices should in no way be compared to Brandon’s. Plenty of FPGeek members have done business with me, and I could easily build a list of close to 100 members who will vouch for my upstanding reputation when conducting business through the pen community.

Mere claim...


I think Brandon needs to be banned for his long history of lying. I was never in disagreement with that point. However, I see some very nasty words being used in this thread and the others that were linked. People are calling him a thief, mentally unstable, saying he's running a Ponzi scheme, and making seemingly untrue statements. He's a d**n kid. He's not a 40 year old Nigerian scammer trying to steal money from 90 year old ladies. He's a misguided CHILD that needs to learn that lying is fraudulent and what he's doing is wrong. However, I honestly believe he had the intention of delivering his promise to the prospective buyer.


All told this thread has been... understated... in its critique of Brandon.



I'm repeating myself over and over again, but it seems that many of you think I'm on Brandon's side.

Liar- Yes
Fraudulent claims- Yes
Scammer- I haven't seen proof of it yet
Thief- I haven't seen proof of it yet

Irrelevant. Perhaps... also ... obtuse.

regards

David

[david i]

The boys and girls reading this thread might get a kick out of an email sent by "Brandon's mommy" to me...

Yet, Brandon has been playing since then on ebay... no?

From: Yvonne Cifani <yvonnecifani@yahoo.com>
To: "isaacson@frontiernet.net" <isaacson@frontiernet.net>
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 3:27 PM
Subject: Brandon Cifani
Hello,
I have just been made aware of my sons name being smeared on your web page and Google. He is a child, and there was never any money changing hands. All kids stretch the truth a little, he meant no harm. I wish you would of contacted me before you put his name all over the internet. We are very hands on parents and do not condone his behavior. He has serious consequences for this behavior. Please have his name removed from all web pages as soon as you get this email. I don't want this to get nasty but we are talking about a minor child with a future ahead of him and this is just wrong.
Sincerely,
Mr and Mrs Cifani

[david i]

This is just another crime Cifani has committed, the point of this thread (as well as many other) is to warn people of Cifani's wrongdoings, not the "bash" him.



Facts cannot be disputed. You had a situation with Brandon that involved him trying to steal money from you. A claim was filed and then consequently dropped. That situation that cannot be disputed aside from the fact that it either did or did not happen.

Perception of Facts can be disputed.

regards

David

[david i]

Daniel,
It seems you now have an agenda to prove me wrong or get me caught up in my words.


Strawman


If this is what you are seeking at this point:
-I retract all statements
-I am wrong and you are right
-You have won the internet and I have lost
-This thread has accomplished exactly what you wanted it to

Now that those are out in the open. Can we move along?


Irrelevant.

Just sayin'...

regards

david

[Penne Stilografiche]

The boys and girls reading this thread might get a kick out of an email sent by "Brandon's mommy" to me...

Yet, Brandon has been playing since then on ebay... no?

From: Yvonne Cifani <yvonnecifani@yahoo.com>
To: "isaacson@frontiernet.net" <isaacson@frontiernet.net>
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 3:27 PM
Subject: Brandon Cifani
Hello,
I have just been made aware of my sons name being smeared on your web page and Google. He is a child, and there was never any money changing hands. All kids stretch the truth a little, he meant no harm. I wish you would of contacted me before you put his name all over the internet. We are very hands on parents and do not condone his behavior. He has serious consequences for this behavior. Please have his name removed from all web pages as soon as you get this email. I don't want this to get nasty but we are talking about a minor child with a future ahead of him and this is just wrong.
Sincerely,
Mr and Mrs Cifani

It's a shame to see him using and tarnishing the name of his mother. I wonder if his parents know about any of things their son does online.

[79spitfire]

The boys and girls reading this thread might get a kick out of an email sent by "Brandon's mommy" to me...

Yet, Brandon has been playing since then on ebay... no?

From: Yvonne Cifani <yvonnecifani@yahoo.com>
To: "isaacson@frontiernet.net" <isaacson@frontiernet.net>
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 3:27 PM
Subject: Brandon Cifani
Hello,
I have just been made aware of my sons name being smeared on your web page and Google. He is a child, and there was never any money changing hands. All kids stretch the truth a little, he meant no harm. I wish you would of contacted me before you put his name all over the internet. We are very hands on parents and do not condone his behavior. He has serious consequences for this behavior. Please have his name removed from all web pages as soon as you get this email. I don't want this to get nasty but we are talking about a minor child with a future ahead of him and this is just wrong.
Sincerely,
Mr and Mrs Cifani

It explains his behavior....

[Penne Stilografiche]

The boys and girls reading this thread might get a kick out of an email sent by "Brandon's mommy" to me...

Yet, Brandon has been playing since then on ebay... no?

From: Yvonne Cifani <yvonnecifani@yahoo.com>
To: "isaacson@frontiernet.net" <isaacson@frontiernet.net>
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 3:27 PM
Subject: Brandon Cifani
Hello,
I have just been made aware of my sons name being smeared on your web page and Google. He is a child, and there was never any money changing hands. All kids stretch the truth a little, he meant no harm. I wish you would of contacted me before you put his name all over the internet. We are very hands on parents and do not condone his behavior. He has serious consequences for this behavior. Please have his name removed from all web pages as soon as you get this email. I don't want this to get nasty but we are talking about a minor child with a future ahead of him and this is just wrong.
Sincerely,
Mr and Mrs Cifani

It explains his behavior....

I don't think that email was actually sent be the pen broker's mother but by Brandon himself. Brandon used that same email address and name to purchased items on ebay.

[mmahany]

I think many of you should think long and hard about how you are handling this situation. Whether or not his parents wrote that email, it’s true.

I firmly believe that his actions should be punished, but the punishment should fit the crime. Ruining his reputation within the pen community is one thing, but many of you are doing a great job of ruining this kid’s life. This kid is going to be applying for colleges in a year or two, and the next 5 years will likely dictate the rest of his life.

Do you truly want to be responsible for ruining his chance to redeem himself in society? I don’t see how anyone could sleep at night being responsible for something like that. Plus, I don't see how that's any form of justice.

If you think that the kid wrote the email, talk to his parents on the phone. That takes that variable out of the question. If they don't take the appropriate action and fix the situation, they're now liable and you go after them.

[Sailor Kenshin]

I think many of you should think long and hard about how you are handling this situation. Whether or not his parents wrote that email, it’s true.

I firmly believe that his actions should be punished, but the punishment should fit the crime. Ruining his reputation within the pen community is one thing, but many of you are doing a great job of ruining this kid’s life. This kid is going to be applying for colleges in a year or two, and the next 5 years will likely dictate the rest of his life.

Do you truly want to be responsible for ruining his chance to redeem himself in society? I don’t see how anyone could sleep at night being responsible for something like that. Plus, I don't see how that's any form of justice.

If you think that the kid wrote the email, talk to his parents on the phone. That takes that variable out of the question. If they don't take the appropriate action and fix the situation, they're now liable and you go after them.

I'm not sure I follow how alerting the pen community to this scammer, and making sure he does not keep scamming those in this small community with his rapid identity changes, constitutes ruining his life.

[Laura N]

It's opposite day?

[Jon Szanto]

˙ʎɐp ǝʇısoddo s,ʇı :ʇɔǝɹɹoɔ sı ɐɹnɐl ʞuıɥʇ ı 'sǝʎ

[Penne Stilografiche]

I think many of you should think long and hard about how you are handling this situation. Whether or not his parents wrote that email, it’s true.

Whether or not he wrote the email is pertinent. If he did write it (which I think is the case based on the grammar and language used, plus the fact that the email that was used to send it is in fact an email address that Brandon uses) then it shows that he has yet to change his deceiving ways. If he did write it, then it shows that he is still trying to manipulate others.

There is no truth in that email. "All kids stretch the truth a little, he meant no harm." He was not just "stretching the truth", but attempting to get $33,000 in cash by selling items that were not in his possession. "He has serious consequences for this behavior.", up until a couple days ago, he was still illegally purchasing items through ebay as well as making false claims about those items to get a discount. "I don't want this to get nasty but we are talking about a minor child with a future ahead of him and this is just wrong." I'm sorry, but someone like Brandon has only a bleak future ahead of him. He partook in fraudulent behavior numerous times and had multiple chances to change his ways and apologize. He has been doing this for years and to this day he is still attempting to defraud others. Everything is possible, but it seems Brandon will simply never change his ways.


I firmly believe that his actions should be punished, but the punishment should fit the crime. Ruining his reputation within the pen community is one thing, but many of you are doing a great job of ruining this kid’s life. This kid is going to be applying for colleges in a year or two, and the next 5 years will likely dictate the rest of his life.

Just based on Brandon's own posts that he made on multiple online forums, a college will have no interest in him. How can you say we are "ruining his reputation" when he has already done that for himself? Also, what is a fitting punishment for habitually attempting to defraud people? You are correct, the punishment should fit the crime. If he was a couple years older (18+), he would certainly be sitting in a jail cell if someone reported his actions.


Do you truly want to be responsible for ruining his chance to redeem himself in society? I don’t see how anyone could sleep at night being responsible for something like that. Plus, I don't see how that's any form of justice.

Again, he had the chance to redeem himself on many occasions, if not, too many occasions. I can tell you I sleep better at night knowing that this thread, as well as many others, could have possibly saved unsuspecting victims from falling into one of Brandon's traps. Speaking of justice, I think all of the threads made to warn people of Brandon are noting compared to retribution that Brandon could have faced (jail, etc.)


If you think that the kid wrote the email, talk to his parents on the phone. That takes that variable out of the question. If they don't take the appropriate action and fix the situation, they're now liable and you go after them.

You seem so interested in defending Brandon as well as his well being, future, etc. I think it is best that if anyone calls his parents, it should be you.

[Chemyst]

I think many of you should think long and hard about how you are handling this situation. Whether or not his parents wrote that email, it’s true.

I firmly believe that his actions should be punished, but the punishment should fit the crime. Ruining his reputation within the pen community is one thing, but many of you are doing a great job of ruining this kid’s life. This kid is going to be applying for colleges in a year or two, and the next 5 years will likely dictate the rest of his life.

Do you truly want to be responsible for ruining his chance to redeem himself in society? I don’t see how anyone could sleep at night being responsible for something like that. Plus, I don't see how that's any form of justice.

If you think that the kid wrote the email, talk to his parents on the phone. That takes that variable out of the question. If they don't take the appropriate action and fix the situation, they're now liable and you go after them.

Concur.

I think this situation shifted some time ago from alerting collectors to a vendetta against a child.

The original goal is laudable, the transformation: troubling.

[david i]

I think many of you should think long and hard about how you are handling this situation. Whether or not his parents wrote that email, it’s true.

I firmly believe that his actions should be punished, but the punishment should fit the crime. Ruining his reputation within the pen community is one thing, but many of you are doing a great job of ruining this kid’s life. This kid is going to be applying for colleges in a year or two, and the next 5 years will likely dictate the rest of his life.

Do you truly want to be responsible for ruining his chance to redeem himself in society? I don’t see how anyone could sleep at night being responsible for something like that. Plus, I don't see how that's any form of justice.

If you think that the kid wrote the email, talk to his parents on the phone. That takes that variable out of the question. If they don't take the appropriate action and fix the situation, they're now liable and you go after them.

How silly.

Brandon has had no punishment.

He merely has experienced exposure of his behavior.

His reputation has not been ruined. He simply has created a reputation for himself.

No one has taken any step to prevent redemption.

That you cannot see something speaks primarily to your own limited vision.

Feel free to call Brandon's mommy if that is an intervention you favor.

regards

David

[79spitfire]

I agree with David's statement. Good or bad decisions in youth can dictate a person's life. I feel Brandon has been given more than ample opportunity to correct his behavior.

If you feel the need to give him more chances, feel free to do so, but please use your own money. I for one will simply be doing everything I reasonably can to avoid business transactions with him.

[kirchh]

I think many of you should think long and hard about how you are handling this situation. Whether or not his parents wrote that email, it’s true.

After the thread had run for almost three months, you came along and told everyone here that we were all wrong about Brandon, and that his only mistake was "choosing his words poorly." You subsequently declared that we would not hear another word from you on this subject; promises, promises. Another month passed, and you returned to declare Brandon guilty of fraud, and you stated your definition of a thief, which you do not dispute Brandon meets. Despite all the public exposure Brandon's acts had already gotten, you asked for people to publicly post more experiences with Brandon's deceitfulness and possible crimes, and you called for the pen collecting community to band together to plan and execute some sort of punishment against Brandon Cifani -- a punishment which would ensure that Brandon can never repeat his bad acts. That is, you are calling for vigilantism against Brandon Cifani.

And you are asking others to think long and hard about how they are handling this situation?


I firmly believe that his actions should be punished, but the punishment should fit the crime.

And you believe that the punishment for Brandon Cifani's crimes should be determined and implemented by some self-appointed body outside the law.

And you are asking others to think long and hard about how they are handling this situation?


Ruining his reputation within the pen community is one thing, but many of you are doing a great job of ruining this kid’s life.

Be specific.

- Who exactly are the "many" individuals you accuse of this? Name names or issue a retraction. Smearing everyone who has posted in these threads with this charge is deeply irresponsible. Have the integrity to identify the specific people who you accuse of "doing a great job of ruining life."

- What statements specifically are ruining Brandon Cifani's life? Please reply with actual quotations, not hand-waving generalizations or vague paraphrases.

- Present your evidence that Brandon Cifani's life has, in fact, been affected negatively by the specific statements made by the identified individuals you will name.


This kid is going to be applying for colleges in a year or two, and the next 5 years will likely dictate the rest of his life.

How will the vigilante justice you have called for affect that scenario?


Do you truly want to be responsible for ruining his chance to redeem himself in society? I don’t see how anyone could sleep at night being responsible for something like that.
Be specific. How [B]exactly would someone posting in this thread be responsible for ruining Brandon Cifani's chance to redeem himself in society? That is, aside from your call for a bunch of people to band together to exact some sort of extrajudicial punishment of their choosing.

Also, do you have any evidence whatsoever that would indicate that Brandon Cifani believes that what he has done is wrong, and that therefore he believes he needs to redeem himself?


Plus, I don't see how that's any form of justice.

You are very focused on bringing Brandon Cifani to justice and you want him punished.

Please explain why you have still not reported him to the authorities so that appropriate justice can be meted out to him.


If you think that the kid wrote the email, talk to his parents on the phone. That takes that variable out of the question. If they don't take the appropriate action and fix the situation, they're now liable and you go after them.

Yet again, you invoke the threat of vigilantism; you now call for people to band together and "go after" Brandon Cifani's parents if this self-appointed posse, which you are leading, deems that Mr. and Ms. Cifani "don't take the appropriate action."

I think you should think long and hard about how you are handling this situation.

--Daniel

[jar]

Is Houghton, Mi nearby?

[david i]

Is Houghton, Mi nearby?

Oxford Charter Township, MI‎


1.

Head northwest on M-24 N/N Lapeer Rd/N Washington Rd toward Dunlap Rd
Continue to follow M-24 N/N Lapeer Rd
About 9 mins

go 8.6 mi
total 8.6 mi

2.

Turn right onto M-24 N/S Lapeer Rd
About 5 mins

go 4.7 mi
total 13.2 mi

3.

Merge onto I-69 W via the ramp to Flint
About 16 mins

go 18.5 mi
total 31.7 mi

4.

Take exit 137 to merge onto I-475 N toward Saginaw
About 9 mins

go 10.3 mi
total 41.9 mi

5.

Keep right at the fork, follow signs for I-75 N/US-23 N/Saginaw and merge onto I-75 N/US-23 N
Continue to follow I-75 N
Partial toll road
About 3 hours 3 mins

go 219 mi
total 261 mi

6.

Take exit 344B to merge onto US-2 W toward Manistique/Escanaba
About 1 hour 8 mins

go 65.5 mi
total 327 mi

7.

Turn right onto M-77 N
About 18 mins

go 17.3 mi
total 344 mi

8.

Turn left onto M-28 W
About 37 mins

go 35.2 mi
total 379 mi

9.

Turn left onto M-28 W/E Munising Ave
Continue to follow M-28 W
About 40 mins

go 37.9 mi
total 417 mi

10.

Turn right onto M-28 W/U.S. 41 N
About 5 mins

go 4.3 mi
total 421 mi

11.

At the traffic circle, take the 2nd exit and stay on M-28 W/U.S. 41 N
Continue to follow U.S. 41 N
About 1 hour 47 mins

go 99.9 mi
total 521 mi

12.

Turn left onto U.S. 41 S
About 2 mins

go 0.3 mi
total 521 mi

Houghton, MI‎

[david i]

Map.

http://vacumania.com/penteech2/oxford_michigan.jpg

[Plume145]

I think many of you should think long and hard about how you are handling this situation. Whether or not his parents wrote that email, it’s true.

I firmly believe that his actions should be punished, but the punishment should fit the crime. Ruining his reputation within the pen community is one thing, but many of you are doing a great job of ruining this kid’s life. This kid is going to be applying for colleges in a year or two, and the next 5 years will likely dictate the rest of his life.

Do you truly want to be responsible for ruining his chance to redeem himself in society? I don’t see how anyone could sleep at night being responsible for something like that. Plus, I don't see how that's any form of justice.

If you think that the kid wrote the email, talk to his parents on the phone. That takes that variable out of the question. If they don't take the appropriate action and fix the situation, they're now liable and you go after them.

Concur.

I think this situation shifted some time ago from alerting collectors to a vendetta against a child.

The original goal is laudable, the transformation: troubling.

+1. I never did have a taste for blood sports.

[david i]

I've seen no blood spilled. Just sayin'...

-d

[eckiefump]

First post here, but here goes, my e-mail to Brandon this evening in reply to an e-mail from him a few days ago, I sold him a couple of pens early last year, toing and froing, but good exchange at the end of the day :-
Hi Brandon,
Sorry never replied sooner, to be honest I am not really that bothered about selling pens, it would be a bit of bother for me to take photo's etc of the pen in question, but thank you for bringing it up as I do need to get in touch with the owner of the pen. He told me just to keep it and when it is sold pay him whatever I thought was fair.
Sorry to hear of your altercations with some in the pen world, you could though have been a bit more subtle in how you acted, but I for one do not actually believe you are dishonest. On the internet in commercial dealings, ebay and the like, you have to show to be 150% honest, many people in the pen hobby have been badly stung and suspicion is warranted.
Don't do crime, understand business (it's subtle) make a fortune !!!!!
Best wishes for the future
Let the onslaught of you internet bullies commence, I ain't getting into it, as I find and have for a long time found your pack animal behaviour deplorable.

[Moxoftritonytes]

This would be plain hilarious :jester: if it wasn`t such a :deadhorse: .

[david i]

First post here, but here goes, my e-mail to Brandon this evening in reply to an e-mail from him a few days ago, I sold him a
Let the onslaught of you internet bullies commence, I ain't getting into it, as I find and have for a long time found your pack animal behaviour deplorable.

Tactic 1 from the LDM, Ad Hominem Insult. Always nice to see an exemplar.


regards

-David

[mhosea]

I'm confused as to why anybody with Brandon's best interests at heart would want to reinvigorate any thread of this nature. I spent a good 2 hours getting caught up on this sad affair yesterday here and more on FPB. I recommend that exercise before making a comment.

[kirchh]

I for one do not actually believe you are dishonest.

I have but one question for you:

Do you consider the following statement honest or dishonest?


“I sent you some pictures of a recent overseas pen collection that I bought.”

I'm trying to get an idea of your definition of "dishonest". This can also serve as a useful guide to others who might consider transacting business with you.

Thanks.

--Daniel

[Penne Stilografiche]

First post here, but here goes, my e-mail to Brandon this evening in reply to an e-mail from him a few days ago, I sold him a couple of pens early last year, toing and froing, but good exchange at the end of the day :-
Hi Brandon,
Sorry never replied sooner, to be honest I am not really that bothered about selling pens, it would be a bit of bother for me to take photo's etc of the pen in question, but thank you for bringing it up as I do need to get in touch with the owner of the pen. He told me just to keep it and when it is sold pay him whatever I thought was fair.
Sorry to hear of your altercations with some in the pen world, you could though have been a bit more subtle in how you acted, but I for one do not actually believe you are dishonest. On the internet in commercial dealings, ebay and the like, you have to show to be 150% honest, many people in the pen hobby have been badly stung and suspicion is warranted.
Don't do crime, understand business (it's subtle) make a fortune !!!!!
Best wishes for the future
Let the onslaught of you internet bullies commence, I ain't getting into it, as I find and have for a long time found your pack animal behaviour deplorable.

Have you read the contents of this thread?

[dannzeman]

If the situation hasn't been made clear after 126 posts, I don't think it ever will.