Scams and Fountain Pens

[JustinJ]

It has been disheartening to hear about the scams that have recently been occurring.

I would like to point out that my experiences with fountain pen users over the last 4 years has been very positive. I've sold pens, bought pens, traded pens, sampled inks, and had paper sent to me. I find the fountain pen community to be some of the nicest people to converse with.

Everyone that I've had a chance to communicate with in the fountain pen community have been honest and very congenial. I like that fountain people get along, no matter religion or political views.

I hope that people do not get discouraged and let a few people ruin the community. It is easy to hear a few bad things and start thinking it is the norm. Again my experience and I'm sure others show that fountain pen users as a group are not out to scam people.

[heraclitus682]

I had experience a bad trade early on in my collecting. My very next trade was with a gentleman by the name of Hari that confirmed that fountain pen people are the best people out there. I recently lost a MB146 to a scammer (not one of the recent ones identified on this board), but will continue to trade because it is so much fun and these people are great. I am happy for FPG allowing us to name and discuss these thieves. FPN would always shut down any conversations about these people. I really don't think there are more thieves out there now, we are just being allowed to name them finally.

Excuse my early morning pre-coffee ramblings.

[JustinJ]

I am certainly glad that Fountain Pen Geeks allows people to warn us. It is unfortunate that there are dishonest people.

[Flounder]

This is one area where FPGeeks really proves its worth. The common sense stance taken is what the community needs.

[hari317]

IME, far more than scammers are some pen maker, repair and nib service people (who like in any other profession) sometimes botch up the job and then unfortunately sometimes do not stand behind the customer. I have seen so many such threads started, warning about the experiences which were quickly shut down whatever be the reason. I hope the market feedback forum will allow such experiences also to be recorded.

[hari317]

I had experience a bad trade early on in my collecting. My very next trade was with a gentleman by the name of Hari that confirmed that fountain pen people are the best people out there. I recently lost a MB146 to a scammer (not one of the recent ones identified on this board), but will continue to trade because it is so much fun and these people are great. I am happy for FPG allowing us to name and discuss these thieves. FPN would always shut down any conversations about these people. I really don't think there are more thieves out there now, we are just being allowed to name them finally.

Excuse my early morning pre-coffee ramblings.

It has been a pleasure to trade several times with Brian(Heraclitus). He has been very generous in his trades and I have been more than satisfied each time. Thanks so much Brian.

[JustinJ]

IME, far more than scammers are some pen maker, repair and nib service people (who like in any other profession) sometimes botch up the job and then unfortunately sometimes do not stand behind the customer. I have seen so many such threads started, warning about the experiences which were quickly shut down whatever be the reason. I hope the market feedback forum will allow such experiences also to be recorded.


I am for market feedback. Honest and good pen people need to be recognized, just as bad or poor nib work needs to be recognized. Thank you Hari for bringing up this point.

[tandaina]

Yup, I've had WAY more good experiences than bad. :) I find if I stick with folks I recognize as active forum participants, I can trust them and the transaction is always good. It's those folks who show up and have no useful or helpful posts to their names that are bad experiences.

[inky]

I agree, way more positive trades/buy/sells then negative. I'm glad that this thread was started to reinforce that. Sometimes it's hard to remember all the positive experiences in the wake of something negative and disheartening. They always say in our customer service training that a negative experience will stay with a person far longer, and be told to many more people, then a positive one.

[david i]

IME, far more than scammers are some pen maker, repair and nib service people (who like in any other profession) sometimes botch up the job and then unfortunately sometimes do not stand behind the customer. I have seen so many such threads started, warning about the experiences which were quickly shut down whatever be the reason. I hope the market feedback forum will allow such experiences also to be recorded.

In all fairness, I believe no restorer of old pens does (or could) warrant against damage during restoration. Some are gentler than others, but old materials break. This is one reason why restored guaranteed pens sold retail quite properly cost more than raw pens on ebay.

I "hope" too (and I speak as one who does not repair pens) that the market feedback forum will allow restorers to cite unreasonable customers. Rumor has it that there are far more of those than there are bad restorers... ;)

zwregards

david

[Marsilius]

Any commerce is based on some level of calculated risk. I was talking with my son about the local cigar store that puts empty boxes on sale outside their door, and had to explain why they were not worried that someone would just walk by and take one without paying the $3.00. I am pretty sure my son wouldn't do that, but he knows that some people might. It's true that a $3.00 box that has already served its purpose is going to cause less hurt when stolen than an expensive pen, but the principle remains the same.

The more I remember that people often don't live up to expectations, the less surprised I am when they don't. It doesn't make me trust the system less (except for the five minutes or days after it fails on me). Same for traffic. Boy do I get self righteous when someone pulls in front of me (as if it matters that much), but most people are thoughtful and look out for each other, and trust that others will do the same for them.

And if you know you can't trust someone, that is really useful information.

All of this a roundabout way of saying that I am actually surprised things function as well as they do in a system of trust that is both fragile and oddly durable.

[hari317]

I "hope" too (and I speak as one who does not repair pens) that the market feedback forum will allow restorers to cite unreasonable customers. Rumor has it that there are far more of those than there are bad restorers... ;)



I think they (service providers, sellers) should also be allowed to cite their problem customers.

But, at the moment, the market feedback forum rules does not seem to cover that.


We at FPGeeks feel it is important to be able to inform others about a good or bad experience you may have had with a company, restorer, or nibmeister. If someone or some place continously provides poor service people should be aware of their reputation before spending their money or sending off a treasured pen to be worked on. On the other hand, if you have had great experiences please share those as well.

[david i]

I don't see an exclusion criterion. I see merely an attempt at inclusion. I would not be surprised if an additional word eventually is added...

regards

david

[Sailor Kenshin]

It has been disheartening to hear about the scams that have recently been occurring.

I would like to point out that my experiences with fountain pen users over the last 4 years has been very positive. I've sold pens, bought pens, traded pens, sampled inks, and had paper sent to me. I find the fountain pen community to be some of the nicest people to converse with.

Everyone that I've had a chance to communicate with in the fountain pen community have been honest and very congenial. I like that fountain people get along, no matter religion or political views.

I hope that people do not get discouraged and let a few people ruin the community. It is easy to hear a few bad things and start thinking it is the norm. Again my experience and I'm sure others show that fountain pen users as a group are not out to scam people.

That's been my experience as well.

I can't tell you how many generous people have sent me items and asked nothing in return, so I've tried to do the same.

[kps]

US-owned and -operated sites like FPG and FPB are explicitly shielded from liability for user-generated content by Section 230 (https://www.eff.org/issues/bloggers/legal/liability/230) of the otherwise justly maligned Communications Decency Act, so they need not worry about potentially expensive lawsuits, either from scammers looking to silence criticism, or from genuine victims of false reports. It is perfectly safe to run a ‘market feedback’ forum in the US. Other countries (http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20121025/01504120821/brein-scores-another-victory-making-it-suck-even-more-to-be-dutch-internet-company.shtml) have different rules, and the policies of sites owned in such places, however disappointing they are to users, do not necessarily reflect what the owners would otherwise choose to do.

[chiaroscuro]

So far, I've only had positive experiences buying and doing several very small trades and letter exchanges (ink samples and that sort of thing) -- everything very pleasant. But... I just posted my first classified and the first thing I get is a "wanna trade" from a sketchy-looking profile with one post.

After this Kirkymalarkey thing, I'll stick to trading letters and trivial things. I won't deny anyone an o-ring if I have extras (I do, for the record, lol), but there's no way I'm sticking any pen above twenty bucks in a box without a Paypal transaction first.

[Tony Rex]

Paypal transaction first.

And avoid unsafe transaction methods: Bank transfer, Western Union, MoneyGram, Shop Vouchers, etc.

So far Paypal is okay for me, but YMMV or course. Plenty of horror stories even with that.. Not sure with IBAN in Europe, I'm not there.. :-)

Woe unto you Canada for having Kirkylarky! If your own citizen for some (strange) reason could not rely on your fancy dressed policing, we shall treat you the same as Somalia in pen trading cred!*

Tongue firmly in cheek.

*except respectable people like drgoretex

[heraclitus682]

Actually, oddly enough, I recently lost a MB 146 and a few other pens to a "trader" in Canada. I know it sounds crazy, but with that, and the kirkylarky stuff, I am reluctant to send my pens to Canada.

Brian

[AndrewW]

In the short year that I've been collecting, my experience has also been quite good; most of the pens I got were working out-of-box, and virtually everyone involved in transactions was pleasant. In fact, I have to give thanks to someone on FPGeeks for sending a Lamy 2000 my way (if you're reading this, thanks Betty!) and also for just how nice in general the community can be. (Regardless of the malignancy towards FPN) I mean, look at their Pay-It-Forward thread. I know FPN can be considered a little...Wacky, at times, but it still shows, to some degree, just how nice the pen collecting community can be.

I do have to say though, after all the dust from the kirky...what's-his-name incident settled, I'll probably be sticking to more local trades, where it's possible to meet in person to chat/write. The other part would be not to throw accusations around; especially after the finger-pointing at renpei I saw. It's not surprising, considering how a similar thing went down at another forum I used to frequent. It's easy to get worked up over a loss, but, as I see it, life always was a game of give and take. You'll win some, you'll lose some.

[Nonsensical]

I have only traded once - with someone from Greece (on FPN). Everything went smoothly, and we both got what we wanted. I was extremely nervous about the trade prior to it taking place, but it seemed like he had traded quite a bit in the past, so despite my intial paranoia, I went ahead with it.

Of course, scammers and liars can be found in every corner of the world, in any and every community. I don't think that it's possible to avoid them completely. However, I do believe that given the size of the online FP community, we're not doing too badly right now. Almost everyone I have talked to, or bought/sold pens from seemed like honest, nice people.

[mhguda]

Amen to that. It's an extremely broad brush that would exclude a whole country based on two bad apples.
Thanks for reminding us, Nonsensical.

[Tony Rex]

It must've been painful enough for the victims, without people rubbing salt by making light of their pain, whether intentional or not. It's just not on.

I say thank you Brian* for letting us know of your ordeal.

Tongue not so firmly in cheek, this time.

Edit: *and Annie, woosang, and others

[chiaroscuro]

Paypal transaction first.

And avoid unsafe transaction methods: Bank transfer, Western Union, MoneyGram, Shop Vouchers, etc.

So far Paypal is okay for me, but YMMV or course. Plenty of horror stories even with that.. Not sure with IBAN in Europe, I'm not there.. :-)

Woe unto you Canada for having Kirkylarky! If your own citizen for some (strange) reason could not rely on your fancy dressed policing, we shall treat you the same as Somalia in pen trading cred!*

Tongue firmly in cheek.

*except respectable people like drgoretex

Lol

BTW, did anyone notice renpei's classified for a Wahl Eversharp demonstrator (http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/classifieds/item/19285-wahl-eversharp-skyline-demonstrator/) using pics from their website because he "had the pen in his locker at school and hence couldn't produce any pictures"? I'm loving his avatar pic too -- reminds me of the hackerforum bookmarks in his browser in the screenshot of the "conversation" he had with **ahem*himself*ahem* kirkylarky... Seems like a real smart, upstanding, straight-A higschool student to me!

[KrazyIvan]

I have had no troubles in dealing on this board. I have a couple sales, some purchases and some trades.

[earthdawn]

I think it really has come down to us trading and dealing with "us". Meaning with those we know. When someone new comes along I guess we need to proceed with caution.

There are so many GREAT people I have met and delt with here. Ones who I would send a pen to without a second thought. I find it nice to know that I know some here well enough, even without meeting them in person, that I would send a pen or ink or paper just to let them try it or review it for their blog etc.

The bad seeds won't change my feelings at all. No matter where you are in the world or life there will always be those who look to take advantage. We as a close knit group need to just stay together.

Just my 2 cents.... I have been avoiding replying to the recent rash of threads about the slime thats infiltrated our friendly and trusting community.

[Annie]

Paypal transaction first.

And avoid unsafe transaction methods: Bank transfer, Western Union, MoneyGram, Shop Vouchers, etc.

So far Paypal is okay for me, but YMMV or course. Plenty of horror stories even with that.. Not sure with IBAN in Europe, I'm not there.. :-)

Woe unto you Canada for having Kirkylarky! If your own citizen for some (strange) reason could not rely on your fancy dressed policing, we shall treat you the same as Somalia in pen trading cred!*

Tongue firmly in cheek.

*except respectable people like drgoretex

Lol

BTW, did anyone notice renpei's classified for a Wahl Eversharp demonstrator (http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/classifieds/item/19285-wahl-eversharp-skyline-demonstrator/) using pics from their website because he "had the pen in his locker at school and hence couldn't produce any pictures"? I'm loving his avatar pic too -- reminds me of the hackerforum bookmarks in his browser in the screenshot of the "conversation" he had with **ahem*himself*ahem* kirkylarky... Seems like a real smart, upstanding, straight-A higschool student to me!

The listing seems to have been removed. I wonder why that is?

[mhguda]

The Classified rules do not allow posting pictures of the item for sale that are not one's own pictures.
But the item is still there, I just clicked the link.

[woosang]

I was scammed and hence no trades from me. I will sell a pen but as stated only after a PayPal receipt is received. I sorry but it bit me hard and I know ppl are generally good, I just can't afford the risk.
If I know you, then that's a different story.
Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk 2

[drgoretex]

Well, at the risk of simply adding a 'me too' post, I have to say that I have had the pleasure of doing a number of pen trades, some with folks who hang out here, and it has been entirely positive.

In fact, out of many hundreds of trades and sales with folks in the 'FP Community', I've only ever had a couple that were a bit sour (and those, I had a suspicion that they would go that way from the beginning, but foolishly did not follow instinct). A rule of thumb for me is simply to be sure the risk is within acceptable limits.

But since I enjoy the pleasure of turning over the collection, and interacting in a mutually trusting sort of way with other FP nuts, I can't see myself giving up the trades.

Thumbs up to the fountain pen folks out there!

Cheers,

Ken

[drgoretex]

Actually, oddly enough, I recently lost a MB 146 and a few other pens to a "trader" in Canada. I know it sounds crazy, but with that, and the kirkylarky stuff, I am reluctant to send my pens to Canada.

Brian

Really, Brian? A couple of bad traders and you're ready to dismiss the other 34 million of us? :cry:

Ken

[heraclitus682]

No, I'll still trade to Canada. Just my first emotional response.

[renpei]

@ Annie.
I do not appreciate your accusations.
First off. Is it illegal to browse hackforums? I have found tons of useful information on how to make money using PPD and how good webhosts and what not on there. The name might be misleading but check it out. They have more than just hacks. And as a computer geek like myself, is it wrong to browse something like that?

Also, this is obviosuly not my computer. Or else, why would I have a bookmark folder called "RENPEI"... But that is besides the point. I go on hackforums occasionally and I am not afraid to admit it. I have some friends who are also computer geeks and have straight A's as well. Problem?

As for the Eversharp, I will be getting pictures up tomorrow. I did not know that we were not allowed to get pics from other webistes. Today is Victoria Day and school is closed. However, if you do not trust me, contact Hiivy on FPN. Hes local and I've shown him my Wahl Eversharp. He can vouch for it. Hes a gold member and has sold several items on FPN including a Pilot to me.

Same to you Charischaro. I have already verified my identity with Dannzeman and I will give him permission to show you what I provided him it that will help you. However, I have done nothing wrong and I do not appreciate my treatment.

You are entitled to your own opinions and I know I cannot change that but please do not accuse me of things I have not done. I have offered to help but you rudely refused it. I have not recieved a thanks but I wasnt looking for one as I know how you are feeling. However, I do not appreciate your rudeness.

[Tiggercat]

Never had a single issue in years of trading on watch, safety razor, and flashlight forums, but got burned on my very first trade on this forum. That's not to say I won't try again, and it's not to say the bad trade is over, but it's certainly disappointing.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

[Jon Szanto]

/redacted

[chiaroscuro]

Renpei, I don't want to poke further holes in your stories because I'm afraid you'd just get better at making them. Suffice it to say I don't believe them one bit.

If you have done or are doing dishonest things, please reconsider that path. You may get away with it for some time but you're only really fooling yourself and life will catch up with you. Better to channel your energies into honest work.

If you truly haven't done anything wrong then just go about your business and disregrd this. That's all I have to say about that.

[david i]

W
Renpei, I don't want to poke further holes in your stories because I'm afraid you'd just get better at making them. Suffice it to say I don't believe them one bit.

If you have done or are doing dishonest things, please reconsider that path. You may get away with it for some time but you're only really fooling yourself and life will catch up with you. Better to channel your energies into honest work.

If you truly haven't done anything wrong then just go about your business and disregrd this. That's all I have to say about that.

What has he done?

regards

david

[renpei]

Apparently, he thinks I am the scammer.

[Jon Szanto]

Note: I've removed my comments. With all of the recent threads on trading and scamming and high school, I had confused two parties. My apologies to renpei for the comments, if they were read.

I'm bowing out. All this ad hoc trading is giving me the willies...

[Laura N]

Apparently, he thinks I am the scammer.

I don't, but I do have to ask, why did you get banned from FPN? And why didn't you report kirkylarky to the police, since you have his address and you are local?

[renpei]

The FPN story... sigh
So basically, you see the link chiaroscuro posted to my Wahl Eversharp advertisement on FPN? Its a long weekend, the pen is in my locker, I couldnt get a picture so I borrowed from the Wahl website. I didnt know i violated the TOS.
Like I told chiaroscuro in a pm, i will take a picture of the pen in my locker with my drivers liscence, student card, and tomorows date beside it to prove that I am telling the truth.

As for the police. What will they do? Go on a chase for a stolen pen? I dont even have proof that he stole it from me. I only have circumstancial evidence and I doubt that would get him in trouble. I had planned to deal with it myself but the other members convinced me otherwise.

I think i will just let it go. I lost a $130 pen but I learned a lesson. And anyways, its better to learn this lesson earlier in life when it really hasnt started :)

[david i]

Apparently, he thinks I am the scammer.

I don't, but I do have to ask, why did you get banned from FPN? And why didn't you report kirkylarky to the police, since you have his address and you are local?

Keep in mind, getting Banned on FPN can mean merely that one is less disturbed than Wim. Just sayin'...

regards

d

[AndrewW]

Apparently, he thinks I am the scammer.

I don't, but I do have to ask, why did you get banned from FPN? And why didn't you report kirkylarky to the police, since you have his address and you are local?

Keep in mind, getting Banned on FPN can mean merely that one is less disturbed than Wim. Just sayin'...

regards

d

My thoughts exactly. FPN has been quite willy-nilly about banning people lately, much to my dismay as well at this point.
Besides that, is renpei really REQUIRED to tell some of you folks every little detail of his life? I think it's prying a little bit too much to repeatedly attempt to pin him for something that I (among many) don't believe he did.

Part of me wants to say it's like vultures scavenging for profit in the blood of others, but...Somehow, it's too harsh. But I definitely don't approve of what I see in terms of accusations here.

[chiaroscuro]

Apparently, he thinks I am the scammer.

I don't, but I do have to ask, why did you get banned from FPN? And why didn't you report kirkylarky to the police, since you have his address and you are local?

Keep in mind, getting Banned on FPN can mean merely that one is less disturbed than Wim. Just sayin'...

regards

d

My thoughts exactly. FPN has been quite willy-nilly about banning people lately, much to my dismay as well at this point.
Besides that, is renpei really REQUIRED to tell some of you every little detail of his life? I think it's prying a little bit too much to repeatedly attempt to pin him for something that I (among many) don't believe he did.

Part of me wants to say it's like vultures scavenging for profit in the blood of others, but...Somehow, it's too harsh. But I definitely don't approve of what I see in terms of accusations here.

AndrewW! It's remarkable how quickly you pop up whenever renpei is mentioned. I commend you for sticking up for him so thoroughly.

For the record, I have never asked for his license or anything else and don't care to see it. I don't remember anyone else asking him for it, either.

[david i]

Renpei, I don't want to poke further holes in your stories because I'm afraid you'd just get better at making them. Suffice it to say I don't believe them one bit.

If you have done or are doing dishonest things, please reconsider that path. You may get away with it for some time but you're only really fooling yourself and life will catch up with you. Better to channel your energies into honest work.

If you truly haven't done anything wrong then just go about your business and disregrd this. That's all I have to say about that.

So, Chia,

I don't want then to address your non-pen related proclivities, but if you have been molesting underage goats, you might want to reconsider that path, even if you do feel an inappropriate attraction to kids. It might go unwitnessed, but besides the moral flaw (goats cannot give consent), you are at risk for catching a zoonosis . Better to channel your energies into more moral activities. Surely there are better ways to live your life.

If you truly haven't been screwing kids then just go about your business and disregrd this. That's all I have to say about that.

I just worry for you. That's all.

Interesting how this logic chain works...

regards

david

[AndrewW]

Apparently, he thinks I am the scammer.

I don't, but I do have to ask, why did you get banned from FPN? And why didn't you report kirkylarky to the police, since you have his address and you are local?

Keep in mind, getting Banned on FPN can mean merely that one is less disturbed than Wim. Just sayin'...

regards

d

My thoughts exactly. FPN has been quite willy-nilly about banning people lately, much to my dismay as well at this point.
Besides that, is renpei really REQUIRED to tell some of you every little detail of his life? I think it's prying a little bit too much to repeatedly attempt to pin him for something that I (among many) don't believe he did.

Part of me wants to say it's like vultures scavenging for profit in the blood of others, but...Somehow, it's too harsh. But I definitely don't approve of what I see in terms of accusations here.

AndrewW! It's remarkable how quickly you pop up whenever renpei is mentioned. I commend you for sticking up for him so thoroughly.

For the record, I have never asked for his license or anything else and don't care to see it. I don't remember anyone else asking him for it, either.

Ah. I messed up that bit of wording; I meant tell you folks in general. :)

[Laura N]

Apparently, he thinks I am the scammer.

I don't, but I do have to ask, why did you get banned from FPN? And why didn't you report kirkylarky to the police, since you have his address and you are local?

Keep in mind, getting Banned on FPN can mean merely that one is less disturbed than Wim. Just sayin'...

regards

d

My thoughts exactly. FPN has been quite willy-nilly about banning people lately, much to my dismay as well at this point.
Besides that, is renpei really REQUIRED to tell some of you folks every little detail of his life? I think it's prying a little bit too much to repeatedly attempt to pin him for something that I (among many) don't believe he did.

Part of me wants to say it's like vultures scavenging for profit in the blood of others, but...Somehow, it's too harsh. But I definitely don't approve of what I see in terms of accusations here.

Well, I for one am not "trying to pin him." I'm actually an "innocent until proven guilty" person, and if you took the trouble to read my post, or look at my others on this topic, you'd see that. I said in the very post you quoted that I didn't think he was the scammer.

However, he comes into the community to start a thread about this scam, and he says he is a victim. Then others raise questions. Then, days later, he wants to sell pens. So in my humble opinion, it's not really out of bounds asking him a few questions before you consider sending your money. Nor is it "prying." I'm not hiding behind anything; I'm asking my questions in the open. And my questions nowhere ask for anything personal. They only follow up on things he has raised himself --his banning and his plan to take on kirkylarky.

If you disagree, that's fine. It's a forum; an exchange of views is what we are here for. But accusing me of nefarious motives, or likening that question to the behavior of a "vulture," or falsely characterizing my questions, is the very behavior you are so quick to condemn when directed at renpei. And that seems a little strange. I'll put up my integrity against anyone's, and I don't take kindly to someone calling it into question for merely asking two questions.

[david i]

Apparently, he thinks I am the scammer.

I don't, but I do have to ask, why did you get banned from FPN? And why didn't you report kirkylarky to the police, since you have his address and you are local?

Keep in mind, getting Banned on FPN can mean merely that one is less disturbed than Wim. Just sayin'...

regards

d

My thoughts exactly. FPN has been quite willy-nilly about banning people lately, much to my dismay as well at this point.
Besides that, is renpei really REQUIRED to tell some of you folks every little detail of his life? I think it's prying a little bit too much to repeatedly attempt to pin him for something that I (among many) don't believe he did.

Part of me wants to say it's like vultures scavenging for profit in the blood of others, but...Somehow, it's too harsh. But I definitely don't approve of what I see in terms of accusations here.

Well, I for one am not "trying to pin him." I'm actually an "innocent until proven guilty" person, and if you took the trouble to read my post, or look at my others on this topic, you'd see that. I said in the very post you quoted that I didn't think he was the scammer.

However, he comes into the community to start a thread about this scam, and he says he is a victim. Then others raise questions. Then, days later, he wants to sell pens. So in my humble opinion, it's not really out of bounds asking him a few questions before you consider sending your money. Nor is it "prying." I'm not hiding behind anything; I'm asking my questions in the open. And my questions nowhere ask for anything personal. They only follow up on things he has raised himself --his banning and his plan to take on kirkylarky.

If you disagree, that's fine. It's a forum; an exchange of views is what we are here for. But accusing me of nefarious motives, or likening that question to the behavior of a "vulture," or falsely characterizing my questions, is the very behavior you are so quick to condemn when directed at renpei. And that seems a little strange. I'll put up my integrity against anyone's, and I don't take kindly to someone calling it into question for merely asking two questions.

Hi,

Only because my quote was part of the multiquote, I wish to emphasize I accused no one of anything.

best regards

david

[renpei]

As promised, proof that I own the pen
http://imgur.com/a/Gmj7g

[chiaroscuro]

I guess that settles everything. Nothing strange to see here people, move along. My apologies.

[renpei]

@chia. I never said it proves anything. I just posted it to show that I own the pen as you were doubthing the authenticity of my ad and you were accusing me of not actually ownin the pen.

[david i]

I guess that settles everything. Nothing strange to see here people, move along. My apologies.

What about the goats?

-d

[chiaroscuro]

+1 for this ignore function. You can see his gums flapping, but you can't hear him.

[david i]

+1 for this ignore function. You can see his gums flapping, but you can't hear him.

Yet here he is... answering.

And of course the actual phrase is, "I see the Klingon's lips moving, but no sound emerges".

To continue, then, with his logic chain...

Should we be worried that he has not disavowed the goat situation?

regards

d

[Flounder]

"Kirkylarky" used the email address blackwave996@gmail.com, on fountainpenclassifieds (http://fountainpenclassifieds.com/topic/1632-18-beauties-mixed-tray/#entry3050) and on fountainpennetwork (http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/statuses/user/103549-kirkylarky/?status_id=23725) and on fpgeeks (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ISpOmalm1IgJ:fpgeeks.com/forum/member.php/2031-kirkylarky%3Ftab%3Dactivitystream%26type%3Duser+&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a)

This page at stopforumspam links two familiar usernames and emaill addresses to the same IP
http://www.stopforumspam.com/ipcheck/174.112.24.161

A search for blackwave996@gmail.com brings up the MultiPlayerGameHacking forum member blackwave996 (http://www.mpgh.net/forum/members/1251775-blackwave996.html)(banned member)

This banned member mentions a skype username "thesheldor" in a very odd post (http://www.mpgh.net/forum/676-realm-mad-god-selling-trading-buying/622022-selling-70-star-filled-items-maxed-chars.html#post7747731) regarding the game "realm of the mad god".

A search for thesheldor brings up a result on a "realm of the mad god" forum. In this thread (https://forums.wildshadow.com/node/90111), thesheldor lists his proxy server sites (https://forums.wildshadow.com/node/90111#comment-400244)

That list was made 17th May 2012.

[kirchh]

"Kirkylarky" used the email address blackwave996@gmail.com, on fountainpenclassifieds (http://fountainpenclassifieds.com/topic/1632-18-beauties-mixed-tray/#entry3050) and on fountainpennetwork (http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/statuses/user/103549-kirkylarky/?status_id=23725) and on fpgeeks (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ISpOmalm1IgJ:fpgeeks.com/forum/member.php/2031-kirkylarky%3Ftab%3Dactivitystream%26type%3Duser+&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a)

This page at stopforumspam links two familiar usernames and emaill addresses to the same IP
http://www.stopforumspam.com/ipcheck/174.112.24.161

A search for blackwave996@gmail.com brings up the MultiPlayerGameHacking forum member blackwave996 (http://www.mpgh.net/forum/members/1251775-blackwave996.html)(banned member)

This banned member mentions a skype username "thesheldor" in a very odd post (http://www.mpgh.net/forum/676-realm-mad-god-selling-trading-buying/622022-selling-70-star-filled-items-maxed-chars.html#post7747731) regarding the game "realm of the mad god".

A search for thesheldor brings up a result on a "realm of the mad god" forum. In this thread (https://forums.wildshadow.com/node/90111), thesheldor lists his proxy server sites (https://forums.wildshadow.com/node/90111#comment-400244)

That list was made 17th May 2012.
Also, this post (https://forums.wildshadow.com/node/101852?page=2) identifies the user with Skype name TheSheldor as the owner of YouTube username Renpei Chen.

So the proposed chain of connection is kirkylarky-> (http://www.stopforumspam.com/ipcheck/174.112.24.161)blackwave996@gmail.com->blackwave996-> (http://www.mpgh.net/forum/676-realm-mad-god-selling-trading-buying/622022-selling-70-star-filled-items-maxed-chars.html#post7747731)TheSheldor-> (https://forums.wildshadow.com/node/101852?page=2)Renpei Chen.

--Daniel

[Flounder]

Coming full circle, on hackforums.net, a certain Renpei (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:AJfuzmTgQRIJ:www.hackforums.net/showthread.php%3Ftid%3D2727033+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a)needs help hacking forums.wildshadows.com (one of the sites mentioned above). That request is even earlier - April 2012.


That kirkylarky is a scammer and was banned on here. Anyways, the point is, I want to find all the people scammed by him and find a way to bring him down.

Well, you did ask! Happy to help,

Flounder

EDIT - TheSheldor/Renpei (both names are shown) *joined* hackforums in April 2012. The site hack help request was made 29th July 2012.

DOUBLE EDIT - to clarify: pretty much a full year before either Renpei or Kirklarky appear on FPN.
renpei (http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=search&do=search&fromMainBar=1)
Joined on Apr 13 2013 18:58
Member - Gold · 128 posts

kirkylarky (http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=search&do=search&fromMainBar=1)
Joined on Apr 27 2013 16:05
Banned · 10 posts

[renpei]

Yes. I am on Hackforums. Yes I play Realm of the Mad God. Yes I went on MPGH to sell my account. Yes I am thesheldor (one of the most trusted sellers on ROTMG). Yes I use blackwave996 as my screen name for games. No I have not been on that account lately. No I was not aware kirkylarky was using my screen name as his email.

In fact, if you look up blackwave996 on flickr, you can see my profile and that I have been a member since last year.

[renpei]

I do use the name blackwave996 but I do not own a email with that name.
Anyways, I never knew that connection existed and I guess that really does weaken my case. However, I will not be pleading guilty to something I did not do. Feel free to formulate your own opinions and definitely feel free to bring up any more information but like I said in the beginning, Its not me.

Also, in reply to a post by chiaro.
What the hell is wrong with using a pic of Vee for my profile picture? Does watching action movies about a man fighting against a totalitarian government automatically make a scammer? If so, I am sorry for watching V for Vendetta and liking it

[renpei]

By the way, this may interest you.
https://forums.wildshadow.com/node/87610

I have received vouches from some of the top players in the game

[Jon Szanto]

"Kirkylarky" used the email address blackwave996@gmail.com, on fountainpenclassifieds (http://fountainpenclassifieds.com/topic/1632-18-beauties-mixed-tray/#entry3050) and on fountainpennetwork (http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/statuses/user/103549-kirkylarky/?status_id=23725) and on fpgeeks (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ISpOmalm1IgJ:fpgeeks.com/forum/member.php/2031-kirkylarky%3Ftab%3Dactivitystream%26type%3Duser+&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a)

This page at stopforumspam links two familiar usernames and emaill addresses to the same IP
http://www.stopforumspam.com/ipcheck/174.112.24.161

A search for blackwave996@gmail.com brings up the MultiPlayerGameHacking forum member blackwave996 (http://www.mpgh.net/forum/members/1251775-blackwave996.html)(banned member)

This banned member mentions a skype username "thesheldor" in a very odd post (http://www.mpgh.net/forum/676-realm-mad-god-selling-trading-buying/622022-selling-70-star-filled-items-maxed-chars.html#post7747731) regarding the game "realm of the mad god".

A search for thesheldor brings up a result on a "realm of the mad god" forum. In this thread (https://forums.wildshadow.com/node/90111), thesheldor lists his proxy server sites (https://forums.wildshadow.com/node/90111#comment-400244)

That list was made 17th May 2012.

You have a lot of free time on your hands, don't you?

[Farmboy]

"Kirkylarky" used the email address blackwave996@gmail.com, on fountainpenclassifieds (http://fountainpenclassifieds.com/topic/1632-18-beauties-mixed-tray/#entry3050) and on fountainpennetwork (http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/statuses/user/103549-kirkylarky/?status_id=23725) and on fpgeeks (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ISpOmalm1IgJ:fpgeeks.com/forum/member.php/2031-kirkylarky%3Ftab%3Dactivitystream%26type%3Duser+&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a)

This page at stopforumspam links two familiar usernames and emaill addresses to the same IP
http://www.stopforumspam.com/ipcheck/174.112.24.161

A search for blackwave996@gmail.com brings up the MultiPlayerGameHacking forum member blackwave996 (http://www.mpgh.net/forum/members/1251775-blackwave996.html)(banned member)

This banned member mentions a skype username "thesheldor" in a very odd post (http://www.mpgh.net/forum/676-realm-mad-god-selling-trading-buying/622022-selling-70-star-filled-items-maxed-chars.html#post7747731) regarding the game "realm of the mad god".

A search for thesheldor brings up a result on a "realm of the mad god" forum. In this thread (https://forums.wildshadow.com/node/90111), thesheldor lists his proxy server sites (https://forums.wildshadow.com/node/90111#comment-400244)

That list was made 17th May 2012.

You have a lot of free time on your hands, don't you?
Jon
I doubt we can understand. All the things we did in our youth are either illegal or will kill you. Example: even though the objectives were essentially the same, they have video games, we had garbage can lids, forts, dirt clods, and bottle rockets...

FarmBoy

[Jon Szanto]

Dirt clods. <sigh>

FB, as so often, you are so right. Can I get your input on my lever repair question over at FPB? ;)

[david i]

"Kirkylarky" used the email address blackwave996@gmail.com, on fountainpenclassifieds (http://fountainpenclassifieds.com/topic/1632-18-beauties-mixed-tray/#entry3050) and on fountainpennetwork (http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/statuses/user/103549-kirkylarky/?status_id=23725) and on fpgeeks (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ISpOmalm1IgJ:fpgeeks.com/forum/member.php/2031-kirkylarky%3Ftab%3Dactivitystream%26type%3Duser+&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a)

This page at stopforumspam links two familiar usernames and emaill addresses to the same IP
http://www.stopforumspam.com/ipcheck/174.112.24.161

A search for blackwave996@gmail.com brings up the MultiPlayerGameHacking forum member blackwave996 (http://www.mpgh.net/forum/members/1251775-blackwave996.html)(banned member)

This banned member mentions a skype username "thesheldor" in a very odd post (http://www.mpgh.net/forum/676-realm-mad-god-selling-trading-buying/622022-selling-70-star-filled-items-maxed-chars.html#post7747731) regarding the game "realm of the mad god".

A search for thesheldor brings up a result on a "realm of the mad god" forum. In this thread (https://forums.wildshadow.com/node/90111), thesheldor lists his proxy server sites (https://forums.wildshadow.com/node/90111#comment-400244)

That list was made 17th May 2012.

You have a lot of free time on your hands, don't you?
Jon
I doubt we can understand. All the things we did in our youth are either illegal or will kill you. Example: even though the objectives were essentially the same, they have video games, we had garbage can lids, forts, dirt clods, and bottle rockets...

FarmBoy

I'm still wondering about the goats...

-d

[Jon Szanto]

"Kirkylarky" used the email address blackwave996@gmail.com, on fountainpenclassifieds (http://fountainpenclassifieds.com/topic/1632-18-beauties-mixed-tray/#entry3050) and on fountainpennetwork (http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/statuses/user/103549-kirkylarky/?status_id=23725) and on fpgeeks (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ISpOmalm1IgJ:fpgeeks.com/forum/member.php/2031-kirkylarky%3Ftab%3Dactivitystream%26type%3Duser+&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a)

This page at stopforumspam links two familiar usernames and emaill addresses to the same IP
http://www.stopforumspam.com/ipcheck/174.112.24.161

A search for blackwave996@gmail.com brings up the MultiPlayerGameHacking forum member blackwave996 (http://www.mpgh.net/forum/members/1251775-blackwave996.html)(banned member)

This banned member mentions a skype username "thesheldor" in a very odd post (http://www.mpgh.net/forum/676-realm-mad-god-selling-trading-buying/622022-selling-70-star-filled-items-maxed-chars.html#post7747731) regarding the game "realm of the mad god".

A search for thesheldor brings up a result on a "realm of the mad god" forum. In this thread (https://forums.wildshadow.com/node/90111), thesheldor lists his proxy server sites (https://forums.wildshadow.com/node/90111#comment-400244)

That list was made 17th May 2012.

You have a lot of free time on your hands, don't you?
Jon
I doubt we can understand. All the things we did in our youth are either illegal or will kill you. Example: even though the objectives were essentially the same, they have video games, we had garbage can lids, forts, dirt clods, and bottle rockets...

FarmBoy

I'm still wondering about the goats...

I'm starting to wonder about you.

[Marsilius]

David, Enough with the goats already! I am starting to wonder about YOU! (edit: I see that Jon Szanto wrote this as I wrote mine. Great minds!)

This is a fascinating issue. American legal system: innocent until proven guilty. Online: where there is smoke there is fire that can be interpreted in many different ways by as many different people, some of whom are no doubt the same person.

At what point does someone whose house keeps emitting smoke need to acknowledge a fire? Someone can deny the significance of associations between their name and accusations by others (forget the goats for a moment, please!), but at some point that person would need to "prove their innocence." Who decides when that point is, what are the criteria, and who will be the judge and jury?

Does the evidence presented now make a solid case against someone? Is there a standard for judging that? I am curious if there is a consensus or any standards routinely adopted by forum communities?

[david i]

"Kirkylarky" used the email address blackwave996@gmail.com, on fountainpenclassifieds (http://fountainpenclassifieds.com/topic/1632-18-beauties-mixed-tray/#entry3050) and on fountainpennetwork (http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/statuses/user/103549-kirkylarky/?status_id=23725) and on fpgeeks (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ISpOmalm1IgJ:fpgeeks.com/forum/member.php/2031-kirkylarky%3Ftab%3Dactivitystream%26type%3Duser+&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a)

This page at stopforumspam links two familiar usernames and emaill addresses to the same IP
http://www.stopforumspam.com/ipcheck/174.112.24.161

A search for blackwave996@gmail.com brings up the MultiPlayerGameHacking forum member blackwave996 (http://www.mpgh.net/forum/members/1251775-blackwave996.html)(banned member)

This banned member mentions a skype username "thesheldor" in a very odd post (http://www.mpgh.net/forum/676-realm-mad-god-selling-trading-buying/622022-selling-70-star-filled-items-maxed-chars.html#post7747731) regarding the game "realm of the mad god".

A search for thesheldor brings up a result on a "realm of the mad god" forum. In this thread (https://forums.wildshadow.com/node/90111), thesheldor lists his proxy server sites (https://forums.wildshadow.com/node/90111#comment-400244)

That list was made 17th May 2012.

You have a lot of free time on your hands, don't you?
Jon
I doubt we can understand. All the things we did in our youth are either illegal or will kill you. Example: even though the objectives were essentially the same, they have video games, we had garbage can lids, forts, dirt clods, and bottle rockets...

FarmBoy

I'm still wondering about the goats...

I'm starting to wonder about you.

I'm worried it has taken you this long to start to wonder ;)

Still, that Jeweler's cap-band Balance about which you emailed today sounds great...

regards

d

[david i]

David, Enough with the goats already! I am starting to wonder about YOU! (edit: I see that Jon Szanto wrote this as I wrote mine. Great minds!)

This is a fascinating issue. American legal system: innocent until proven guilty. Online: where there is smoke there is fire that can be interpreted in many different ways by as many different people, some of whom are no doubt the same person.

At what point does someone whose house keeps emitting smoke need to acknowledge a fire? Someone can deny the significance of associations between their name and accusations by others (forget the goats for a moment, please!), but at some point that person would need to "prove their innocence." Who decides when that point is, what are the criteria, and who will be the judge and jury?

Does the evidence presented now make a solid case against someone? Is there a standard for judging that? I am curious if there is a consensus or any standards routinely adopted by forum communities?

Will no one stand up for them?

Oh... the humanity...

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6p7ncqj4f1r1c5w7o1_500.jpg

regards

david

[Marsilius]

They'd make an awfully pretty bagpipe . . .

[woosang]

Will no one stand up for them?

Oh... the humanity...

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6p7ncqj4f1r1c5w7o1_500.jpg

regards

david
Can I have the goat?


Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk 2

[Bogon07]

Will no one stand up for them?

Oh... the humanity...

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6p7ncqj4f1r1c5w7o1_500.jpg

regards

david
Can I have the goat?


Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk 2
For your snake ?

[woosang]

For my lawn.. I have a 7.5ft thistle David has named it ..

[Flounder]

Renpei, have you made a mistake, or do you realise the thread you linked to vouching your integrity (https://forums.wildshadow.com/node/87610) is
a) hardly a shining endorsement, therein you are accused of scamming and sockpuppeting.
b) in very forum (forums.wildshadows.com) you tried to hack as shown above.

For some reason, your peers are awfully wary of you (http://www.mpgh.net/forum/676-realm-mad-god-selling-trading-buying/636060-quickselling-account-2-8-8s-4-char-slots-5-7-vaults-20-trench-keys.html). You yourself state that your skype is "blackwave996 or thesheldor not sure which", and that you have a gmail account (http://www.mpgh.net/forum/676-realm-mad-god-selling-trading-buying/622022-selling-70-star-filled-items-maxed-chars.html#post7747731) (in a convoluted story in which an alleged antagonist "keylogs me and tries to access my gmail....I am quick trusted on wildshadow forums so I do hope you will take my word". You claim you don't use the email address blackwave996@gmail.com, in spite of a proven track record of using that username on forums, your proxy sites, skype and flickr in addition to Renpei96 and Renpei1996.

I have a google mail account. In fact, google makes it almost impossible not to, you can't even access the playstore with an android smartphone without it. Jolly hard it is too to prevent it becoming your permanent sign in for youtube, blogger and a host of other services. In my case, they took my old username and stuck gmail.com after it.

So where do we go from here?

If I were a 16 year old l337 haxx0r suffering the same slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, I would now take a long enough break from my straight A studies, volunteering, taking my dear old mum to dinner, steam cleaning angel wings etc. etc. to go to the local station and file a police report.

After all, this Kirkylarky guy's a menace! Look at the steps he's taken to besmirch your name. Before you even met, this nefarious swine searched out a username you've been associated with for a year, adopted it as his nom de guerre, followed you onto a fountain pen forum, and is now using your real name to collect scam swag on Amazon!

ps - why did you ask a mod "@Dannzeman why did you not just IP ban Kirk?" As a ninja-skillz haxx0r with 3 proxy sites to your name (one literally in your name) didn't you consider that Kirk might use such a service?

[david i]

This gets interestinger and interestinger...

regards

d

[Farmboy]

This gets interestinger and interestinger...

regards

d
You clearly have a talent for understating the obvious.

Carry on.

[david i]

This gets interestinger and interestinger...

regards

d
You clearly have a talent for understating the obvious.

Carry on.

Gotta have some talent.

At least I'm not misunderestimated...

-d

[Annie]

I guess that settles everything. Nothing strange to see here people, move along. My apologies.

I wonder where the pen came from.

[Freddie]

Fascinating and very entertaining..

Fred
enjoying black truffle salt popcorn.

[chiaroscuro]

Like I stated before and has since been expanded on by Flounder and kirchh, it's obvious enough what's going on and it has been for some time. Further evidence will just serve to make him a better crook (for the slower people: he'll know what to do better next time to cover his tracks). Plus, there are people here that apparently don't care if others suffer as long as it's not happening to them, and in fact they'll egg the perpetrator on and ridicule those that are trying to help. Those that would accuse me of trolling an innocent kid really need to read the related topics carefully and from the beginning; if they still don't get it there's probably nothing that can be done for them (I suspect they do get it but can't resist having a cheap laugh at the expense of others). I never expected thanks, as no one asked me to get involved, but I certainly never expected to be attacked this way (especially by people who I've never even spoken to before!). In any case, el que se junta con mierda se embarra, and some of you just stink right now...

[Annie]

Like I stated before and has since been expanded on by Flounder and kirchh, it's obvious enough what's going on and it has been for some time. Further evidence will just serve to make him a better crook (for the slower people: he'll know what to do better next time to cover his tracks). Plus, there are people here that apparently don't care if others suffer as long as it's not happening to them, and in fact they'll egg the perpetrator on and ridicule those that are trying to help. Those that would accuse me of trolling an innocent kid really need to read the related topics carefully and from the beginning; if they still don't get it there's probably nothing that can be done for them (I suspect they do get it but can't resist having a cheap laugh at the expense of others). I never expected thanks, as no one asked me to get involved, but I certainly never expected to be attacked this way (especially by people who I've never even spoken to before!). In any case, el que se junta con mierda se embarra, and some of you just stink right now...

It is awful you feel this way. Will reply by PM.

[Marsilius]

Like I stated before and has since been expanded on by Flounder and kirchh, it's obvious enough what's going on and it has been for some time. Further evidence will just serve to make him a better crook (for the slower people: he'll know what to do better next time to cover his tracks). Plus, there are people here that apparently don't care if others suffer as long as it's not happening to them, and in fact they'll egg the perpetrator on and ridicule those that are trying to help. Those that would accuse me of trolling an innocent kid really need to read the related topics carefully and from the beginning; if they still don't get it there's probably nothing that can be done for them (I suspect they do get it but can't resist having a cheap laugh at the expense of others). I never expected thanks, as no one asked me to get involved, but I certainly never expected to be attacked this way (especially by people who I've never even spoken to before!). In any case, el que se junta con mierda se embarra, and some of you just stink right now...

It is awful you feel this way. Will reply by PM.

Yep, it has been pretty clear that in the process of scamming, these folks can make also the scammed look undeservedly bad in the process. Scenario: Victim raises issue of possible scammer, scammer complains, people suggest victim is at fault or should apologize to alleged scammer for having made accusations, scammer is caught, victim still feels left with bad feeling from others not believing them . . .

it is a little in the nature of the internet and communities. To some extent the only recourse is to not (publicly at least) get upset, but rely on the fact that reasonable folks will recognize over time that victim is a reliable and reasonable person. In other words, state your case, stay cool grim (typo intentional) and bear it, and trust that the truth or at least virtue will out.

[Annie]

Like I stated before and has since been expanded on by Flounder and kirchh, it's obvious enough what's going on and it has been for some time. Further evidence will just serve to make him a better crook (for the slower people: he'll know what to do better next time to cover his tracks). Plus, there are people here that apparently don't care if others suffer as long as it's not happening to them, and in fact they'll egg the perpetrator on and ridicule those that are trying to help. Those that would accuse me of trolling an innocent kid really need to read the related topics carefully and from the beginning; if they still don't get it there's probably nothing that can be done for them (I suspect they do get it but can't resist having a cheap laugh at the expense of others). I never expected thanks, as no one asked me to get involved, but I certainly never expected to be attacked this way (especially by people who I've never even spoken to before!). In any case, el que se junta con mierda se embarra, and some of you just stink right now...

It is awful you feel this way. Will reply by PM.

Yep, it has been pretty clear that in the process of scamming, these folks can make also the scammed look undeservedly bad in the process. Scenario: Victim raises issue of possible scammer, scammer complains, people suggest victim is at fault or should apologize to alleged scammer for having made accusations, scammer is caught, victim still feels left with bad feeling from others not believing them . . .

it is a little in the nature of the internet and communities. To some extent the only recourse is to not (publicly at least) get upset, but rely on the fact that reasonable folks will recognize over time that victim is a reliable and reasonable person. In other words, state your case, stay cool grim (typo intentional) and bear it, and trust that the truth or at least virtue will out.

I care very little about who thinks what of me. I know what happened and have been around the block enough times to know the good from the bad, the scammer from the good guy. I have put this in the hands of the law enforcement agencies and will wait and see. The fat lady isn't on her feet quite yet.

[david i]

Plus, there are people here that apparently don't care if others suffer as long as it's not happening to them, and in fact they'll egg the perpetrator on and ridicule those that are trying to help.

Tactic 6 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Projection"

Tactic 3 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Straw Man"



Those that would accuse me of trolling an innocent kid really need to read the related topics carefully and from the beginning;

Tactic 3 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Straw Man"


I never expected thanks, as no one asked me to get involved,


Tactic 13 from the LDM: "Woe is me"



but I certainly never expected to be attacked this way

Tactic 7 from the LDM: "Claim personal attack"


In any case, el que se junta con mierda se embarra, and some of you just stink right now...

Tactic 1 from the LDM: " Ad Hominem Insult"

Geez... this guy is on a roll...

[KrazyIvan]

I have been watching and waiting for evidence to pop up before forming my own opinion. I think it is time to dig out the l337 h4x0r file. I don't ever use it except for special occasions.

2885

[Annie]

Tactic 6 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Projection"

Tactic 3 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Straw Man"



Those that would accuse me of trolling an innocent kid really need to read the related topics carefully and from the beginning;

Tactic 3 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Straw Man"


I never expected thanks, as no one asked me to get involved,


Tactic 13 from the LDM: "Woe is me"



but I certainly never expected to be attacked this way

Tactic 7 from the LDM: "Claim personal attack"


In any case, el que se junta con mierda se embarra, and some of you just stink right now...

Tactic 1 from the LDM: " Ad Hominem Insult"

Geez... this guy is on a roll...

David,

Have you lost any money or any pens to the scammer in question?

[Flounder]

Ivan - PMd.

[david i]

David,

Have you lost any money or any pens to the scammer in question?

Irrelevant, or as they say, "Straw Man", though in this case I suspect you ask from true curiosity, so I cannot yet invoke the LDM.

regards

david

[Annie]

David,

Have you lost any money or any pens to the scammer in question?

Irrelevant, or as they say, "Straw Man", though in this case I suspect you ask from true curiosity, so I cannot yet invoke the LDM.

regards

david

I thought not.

[david i]

I thought not.

Yes, it is pretty clear that you didn't think.

Just sayin...

regards

david

[Jon Szanto]

Like I stated before and has since been expanded on by Flounder and kirchh, it's obvious enough what's going on and it has been for some time. Further evidence will just serve to make him a better crook (for the slower people: he'll know what to do better next time to cover his tracks). Plus, there are people here that apparently don't care if others suffer as long as it's not happening to them, and in fact they'll egg the perpetrator on and ridicule those that are trying to help. Those that would accuse me of trolling an innocent kid really need to read the related topics carefully and from the beginning; if they still don't get it there's probably nothing that can be done for them (I suspect they do get it but can't resist having a cheap laugh at the expense of others). I never expected thanks, as no one asked me to get involved, but I certainly never expected to be attacked this way (especially by people who I've never even spoken to before!). In any case, el que se junta con mierda se embarra, and some of you just stink right now...
Please, do try to understand that many people have a full and demanding life on the other side of this glass. We may very well be dealing with critical life issues, issues that may certainly supersede an online drama involving some fountain pens and bad behavior. That we may surely not have time to sit and read all manner of references to third-party sites and spend our time deciding the fates of people whom we have never met.

Just keep those things in mind. If you are going to be an Internet policeman, you need thick skin. If you are indeed correct in all of your accusations, then the knowledge of uncovering these crimes should be more than enough compensation.

Me? I've just tried to spend some of my online time helping others, which may or may not be visible to the public, and have a little fun on other times. If you want to put on the "why so serious" face, that is up to you. I'm glad for you if you've helped someone out. More than that, yeah, I can't really care about it as much as the important things in my life.

[Flounder]

David, what a cheap shot. That's no way to treat a lady.

[david i]

David, what a cheap shot. That's no way to treat a lady.

Tactic 18 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Assert 'Cheap Shot'"

Sigh...

regards

David

[Flounder]

I don't really share your mass-debatory interest and I've never heard of the "Losing Debater's Manual". You were rude to a lady, and that's no way for a gentleman to behave.

edit - got the name of the manual wrong.

[david i]

I don't really share your mass-debatory interest and I've never heard of the "Loser's Debating Manual". You were rude to a lady, and that's no way for a gentleman to behave.

Tactic 18-b from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Assert Rudeness".

Tactic 21 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Assert disinterest in debating".

And so forth...

regards

david

[Flounder]

So can you help me out with a link or ISBN? I'm drawing a blank. Possibly one of the more obscure sophists? :confused:

[david i]

So can you help me out with a link or ISBN? I'm drawing a blank. Possibly one of the more obscure sophists? :confused:

Tactic 23 from the LDM: "Ask your opponent to help you".

regards

David

[Flounder]

What's the big deal? You've got me curious, I've a fair interest in the classics. The ISBN will be on the back cover.

[Jon Szanto]

That's no way to treat a lady.
I do believe we left the Victorian times long behind us. Proper treatment of a fellow member of our species is, and should be, without respect to the individual's gender. I treat both gentlemen and ladies with equal respect or disdain, as the situation warrants. I expect that a person of substance, man or woman, would appreciate nothing less.

[david i]

What's the big deal? You've got me curious, I've a fair interest in the classics. The ISBN will be on the back cover.

Tactic 27 from the LDM: "What's the Big Deal?"

Just sayin'...

regards

david

[david i]

That's no way to treat a lady.
I do believe we left the Victorian times long behind us. Proper treatment of a fellow member of our species is, and should be, without respect to the individual's gender. I treat both gentlemen and ladies with equal respect or disdain, as the situation warrants. I expect that a person of substance, man or woman, would appreciate nothing less.

Hi John,

Good to see some issues-oriented material. Thanks for posting. Indeed, it is only the condescending male chauvinist pigs who believe that those of the female persuasion are not worthy of equal treatment in the heady arena of debate/discussion. They reveal their own condescension for women in their posts.

You and I know that. Some of the fish here... not so much ;)

This is fun, at least.

regards

David

[Flounder]

Could you please let me know the ISBN? :lazy2:

[david i]

Could you please let me know the ISBN? :lazy2:

Tactic 23 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Ask your opponent to help you".

Geez, I can do this all day ;)

regards

david

[Flounder]

You haven't done it once yet! If not the ISBN, a link or whathaveyou.

[david i]

You haven't done it once yet! If not the ISBN, a link or whathaveyou.

Tactic 23 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Ask your opponent to help you".

Warning sign... exclamation points.

regards

david

[Flounder]

Yes yes, Tactic 23, warmest regards etc, ISBN?

[david i]

Yes yes, Tactic 23, warmest regards etc, ISBN?

Tactic 23 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Ask your opponent to help you".

Tactic 27 from the LDM: "Attempt repetition in the face of failed demands" (generally associates with Tactic 23).

Regards

David

[Flounder]

What baffling intransigence! Without an established frame of reference, the heady arena of debate/discussion you've imposed on this thread seems a failed enterprise.

[david i]

What baffling intransigence! Without an established frame of reference, the heady arena of debate/discussion you've imposed on this thread seems a failed enterprise.

Tactic 17 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Having nothing of substance to offer, attempt simply to declare your opponent a failure".

Ahhh... bafflement and an exclamation point. Excellent ;)

regards

david

[chiaroscuro]

Tactic 6 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Projection"

Tactic 3 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Straw Man"



Those that would accuse me of trolling an innocent kid really need to read the related topics carefully and from the beginning;

Tactic 3 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Straw Man"


I never expected thanks, as no one asked me to get involved,


Tactic 13 from the LDM: "Woe is me"



but I certainly never expected to be attacked this way

Tactic 7 from the LDM: "Claim personal attack"


In any case, el que se junta con mierda se embarra, and some of you just stink right now...

Tactic 1 from the LDM: " Ad Hominem Insult"

Geez... this guy is on a roll...

David,

Have you lost any money or any pens to the scammer in question?

Nope. Notice that everyone that's laughing about it and thanking each other for mocking victims and those that are trying to help all seem to already have substantial collections; they have little to lose if these forums become infested with scammers because they don't have to engage in small, person-to-person transactions online.

[david i]

Nope. Notice that everyone that's laughing about it and thanking each other for mocking victims and those that are trying to help all seem to already have substantial collections; they have little to lose if these forums become infested with scammers because they don't have to engage in small, person-to-person transactions online.

Straw Man and Dishonest.

Just sayin'...

regards

David

[Jon Szanto]

Nope. Notice that everyone that's laughing about it and thanking each other for mocking victims and those that are trying to help all seem to already have substantial collections; they have little to lose if these forums become infested with scammers because they don't have to engage in small, person-to-person transactions online.
Really? You honestly believe what you just typed?

In point of fact, who precisely are you targeting here? Who has mocked a victim? How are you aware of "substantial collections"? How do you know who does, and doesn't, choose to engage in "small, person-to-person transactions online"?

Up until now, I was more than ready to believe your assertions regarding the main topic. When you pull stuff out of (I'll be charitable) thin air, not so much.

I responded directly to Annie in a thread a number of days ago. She certainly knows my sense of support for someone who has been wronged. I have a funny feeling your white hat is obscuring your vision. Or something.

Ok. And with that, I'm off to play tonight's concert, and currently done with the thread. Good luck to all.

[chiaroscuro]

All of a sudden you care so much... I thought the whole thing about your last post was how above it all you are?

[Sailor Kenshin]

That's no way to treat a lady.
I do believe we left the Victorian times long behind us. Proper treatment of a fellow member of our species is, and should be, without respect to the individual's gender. I treat both gentlemen and ladies with equal respect or disdain, as the situation warrants. I expect that a person of substance, man or woman, would appreciate nothing less.

I guess I'm old fashioned because I agree with Flounder.

[david i]

All of a sudden you care so much... I thought the whole thing about your last post was how above it all you are?

Straw Man.

Indeterminate object.

Just sayin'...

regards

-d

[alc3261]

I've given quite a lot away on the Pay It Forward thread on FPN and been given lots of advice and help by the FP Community.
Generally a nice bunch I think.

[chiaroscuro]

In point of fact, who precisely are you targeting here? Who has mocked a victim? How are you aware of "substantial collections"? How do you know who does, and doesn't, choose to engage in "small, person-to-person transactions online"?



1) Not you. I don't remember saying "John Szanto," though you seem to feel like you were called out.
2) Read the kirkylarky thread. Oh, wait, I forgot your life is so "demanding and full" that you can't be bothered to, though that doesn't seem to stop you from chiming in on the subject.
3) Umm, only of members who are known throughout the entire FP community for the sizeable collections they share with everyone on the internet
4) I don't. I said that they don't have to and I qualified it all with "seems"

You know, you seem pretty sensitive for someone who advises others to be thick-skinned.

[Jon Szanto]

Good times. Tapatalk and finger typing aren't great for detailed replies, so more later in the eve.

But for Flounder: I'm getting ready to perform a symphony orchestra concert, and I'm nearly 60 years old - do you really think I'm not "old-fashioned"? No, I just treat *all* with equal respect, regardless of race, color, creed, or gender.

How modern.

[cwent2]

I was scammed and hence no trades from me. I will sell a pen but as stated only after a PayPal receipt is received. I sorry but it bit me hard and I know ppl are generally good, I just can't afford the risk.
If I know you, then that's a different story.
Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk 2

I can't blame you. But is is a shame, you can not take a person's oath as being worth a plug nickel - Just saying!

[david i]

1) Not you. I don't remember saying "John Szanto," though you seem to feel like you were called out.

Tactic 3 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Straw Man".


2) Read the kirkylarky thread. Oh, wait, I forgot your life is so "demanding and full" that you can't be bothered to, though that doesn't seem to stop you from chiming in on the subject.

Straw Man. Furthermore... Weak.



3) Umm, only of members who are known throughout the entire FP community for the sizeable collections they share with everyone on the internet

Straw Man. Dishonest. Nonspecific. . Go figure.


4) I don't. I said that they don't have to and I qualified it all with "seems"

Cop out.


You know, you seem pretty sensitive for someone who advises others to be thick-skinned.

Tactic 6 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Projection"

And so forth.

regards

david

[david i]

Good times. Tapatalk and finger typing aren't great for detailed replies, so more later in the eve.

But for Flounder: I'm getting ready to perform a symphony orchestra concert, and I'm nearly 60 years old - do you really think I'm not "old-fashioned"? No, I just treat *all* with equal respect, regardless of race, color, creed, or gender.

How modern.

Flounder merely is sexist, by his own words. Not a matter of age.

regards

david

[kps]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvDvTnTGjgQ&t=30s

[Farmboy]

I find this all interesting. A few years ago a number of us were on the short end of a problem sale, you could say we were scammed. I personally was and still am out a significant amount. All totaled the combined losses were in excess of a five-figure sum. All involved had done business with the seller before. A number of the victims of the scam were nearly banned on another forum and as a victim I was explicitly called a liar. We resulted in filing long distance police reports and legal action. Ultimately the scammer was removed from the other forum and the victims reinstated. When the same scam appeared on another message board the process repeated even though the warnings were polite and documented with a case number.

Since someone will ask, the same collection of pens was sold to multiple people. It is likely the collection never existed. I have the dubious honor of being the first to pay having documented that the collection was sold and paid for again AFTER my payment cleared.

Among the scammed I like to think some are advanced pen people, many of whom have done transactions totaling six-figures on-line with people they have never met. I know the experience has changed the way at least a few of us now approach these transactions.

That this discussion has gone the way it has is not surprising, it is a repeat of history. To bad most of the posts/threads on it are hidden from view.

On a side note, the LDM is a fascinating read and almost a cult classic.

[david i]

I find this all interesting. A few years ago a number of us were on the short end of a problem sale, you could say we were scammed. I personally was and still am out a significant amount. All totaled the combined losses were in excess of a five-figure sum. All involved had done business with the seller before. A number of the victims of the scam were nearly banned on another forum and as a victim I was explicitly called a liar. We resulted in filing long distance police reports and legal action. Ultimately the scammer was removed from the other forum and the victims reinstated. When the same scam appeared on another message board the process repeated even though the warnings were polite and documented with a case number.

Since someone will ask, the same collection of pens was sold to multiple people. It is likely the collection never existed. I have the dubious honor of being the first to pay having documented that the collection was sold and paid for again AFTER my payment cleared.

Among the scammed I like to think some are advanced pen people, many of whom have done transactions totaling six-figures on-line with people they have never met. I know the experience has changed the way at least a few of us now approach these transactions. That this discussion has gone the way it has is not surprising, it is a repeat of history. To bad most of the posts/threads on it are hidden from view.

Todd, next time I see you you'll have to tell me of this.



On a side note, the LDM is a fascinating read and almost a cult classic.

Verily, my time on this planet then was not wasted ;)

regards

David

[Ray-VIgo]

It wouldn't be the internet without a few fraudsters about.

[Annie]

That's no way to treat a lady.
I do believe we left the Victorian times long behind us. Proper treatment of a fellow member of our species is, and should be, without respect to the individual's gender. I treat both gentlemen and ladies with equal respect or disdain, as the situation warrants. I expect that a person of substance, man or woman, would appreciate nothing less.

I guess I'm old fashioned because I agree with Flounder.

SK - that's very sweet of you. Honestly though, anyone who imagines that because I don't have balls, that somehow I need 'protecting' certainly doesn't know me. :)

[snedwos]

If someone says "Just saying" again to try and mitigate a statement they have made (kind of like using the expression "No offence") I will explode.

Just sayi...*BLAM!!!*

[david i]

That's no way to treat a lady.
I do believe we left the Victorian times long behind us. Proper treatment of a fellow member of our species is, and should be, without respect to the individual's gender. I treat both gentlemen and ladies with equal respect or disdain, as the situation warrants. I expect that a person of substance, man or woman, would appreciate nothing less.

I guess I'm old fashioned because I agree with Flounder.

SK - that's very sweet of you. Honestly though, anyone who imagines that because I don't have balls, that somehow I need 'protecting' certainly doesn't know me. :)

Verily. If one cannot handle challenge, one belongs not on a message board.

regards

david

[david i]

If someone says "Just saying" again to try and mitigate a statement they have made (kind of like using the expression "No offence") I will explode.

Just sayi...*BLAM!!!*

It's ok. I'm a doctor. I can fix you...

regards

david

[Annie]

If someone says "Just saying" again to try and mitigate a statement they have made (kind of like using the expression "No offence") I will explode.

Just sayi...*BLAM!!!*

If you go to setting and then edit ignore list, then add those who are repeat offenders, it may help. I find it helps cut down the dross and keeps the diastolic on my blood pressure to levels I and my doc are comfortable with. Red wine also helps.

PS: I like your sig.

[Flounder]

Further developments!

I’ll put off the further on-topic developments to dismiss David’s nonsense first; seeing as his thinly veiled “fun (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/2604-Scams-and-Fountain-Pens?p=30845&viewfull=1#post30845)” has traded in its former timidity for open faced hostility.

1. Defamation of Character.

David states “Flounder merely is sexist, by his own words.” (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/2604-Scams-and-Fountain-Pens?p=30899&viewfull=1#post30899)

In point of fact, this ad-hominem slur comes from David himself, based on presumption, hyperbole and a transparently specious analogy*:
“Indeed, it is only the condescending male chauvinist pigs who believe that those of the female persuasion are not worthy of equal treatment in the heady arena of debate/discussion. They reveal their own condescension for women in their posts. You and I know that.”

[*David’s self-styled “heady area of debate” amounting to the excretion “it is pretty clear that you didn't think.” Even by schoolboy standards, this is mere insult. For a grown man to present it as heady debate is to stretch credulity. So I dismiss out of hand the high flown equal rights polemic as self-serving and fallacious. ]

My “own words”:
“That's no way to treat a lady.”, “You were rude to a lady, and that's no way for a gentleman to behave.”

My interpretation: David tossed out his insult, I rebuke him for it. In lieu of an apology, he chose instead to follow up that insult with a hollow sermonising critique of said rebuke and an attempt at (in my view, an embarrassingly clumsy) character assassination. In summation: the guy has no class.


2. Schoolboy chutzpah
I don’t think there is a “Loser’s Debating Manual”. I think that’s why I can’t find an ISBN, or any references to such a manual at all, apart from when said is quoted from by David. I think that’s why he demurred 5 times in a row. There is no ISBN, because there’s no such publication...

... Protagoras this is not. I think what I’ve wasted the last 10 minutes looking for is merely a grown man’s self-serving, self-penned list (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=16&cad=rja&ved=0CEsQFjAFOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politico.com%2Fpolitico44%2F2 012%2F11%2Fwhite-house-says-israel-has-a-right-to-defend-itself-149833.html&ei=wQWeUd7yE8bL0AXKoIHoBg&usg=AFQjCNGOKrm7JR3heruZwEv8gELZvvk-_g) of some inane and even circular one liners, which he CtrlV’s to attempt critique of his “opponents” [his word]. With an unseemly regularity, David is quoting... himself, if you can choke down the chutzpah (Flounder, 2013). Not that he has the discipline to adhere to his own self-authored rules (such that can be found without disagreeable effort) in re: ad hominem insults (Tactic 1 (finally!) from the Losing Debater's Manual: "When you have nothing useful to say to advance your position, engage Ad Hominem insult" (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/1981-What-is-up-with-FPN?p=24513&viewfull=1#post24513), () repetition etc.

To christen his self penned 30 bullet points a “Loser’s Debating Manual” is itself demonstrably hypocritical ("Tactic 6 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Hyperbole" (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/1981-What-is-up-with-FPN?p=24455&viewfull=1#post24455) ) and the time I’ve wasted looking at the others was similarly stultifying.

Suffice to say, as David has such a hypocritical disregard (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/1981-What-is-up-with-FPN?p=24719&viewfull=1#post24719) for his own self penned terms of engagement, I question why I or anyone else should pay more credence to a manual than the author does himself?

Anyway off to my ignore list David goes. Should I miss him, running one of those old Eliza programs should provide an approximate quality of engagement. If he misses me, he's free to gosub this post by way of reply.

There are basic pointers for intellectually honest and intellectually dishonest debate tactics all over the net, for those who demonstrate a strong compulsion to treat threads as a debate to be won regardless of subject or context, such as http://www.johntreed.com/debate.html.

ps thanks for the "rep points".

[Flounder]

Good times. Tapatalk and finger typing aren't great for detailed replies, so more later in the eve.

But for Flounder: I'm getting ready to perform a symphony orchestra concert, and I'm nearly 60 years old - do you really think I'm not "old-fashioned"? No, I just treat *all* with equal respect, regardless of race, color, creed, or gender.

How modern.

I haven’t had any cause to "really think" anything about you at all, given that I joined FPG less than a month ago and that this is only the second thread I've seen you in, including my introduction post, though you demonstrate an inordinate interest in my opinion and even an odd passive aggressive flourish (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/2369-Hi-from-Glasgow!?p=26135&viewfull=1#post26135) by way of a greeting.

For what it is worth, you are misquoting Sailor Kenshin, not me. Adding to the gestalt above, I find the mistake indicative; following the smoke/fire dynamic, I will follow the trail, form an opinion, and get back to you.

[Flounder]

Getting back on track:


By the way, this may interest you.
https://forums.wildshadow.com/node/87610

I have received vouches from some of the top players in the game

Fairly interesting, but surely there are spicier examples of the Renpei Chen commitment to scruples. Do you still need help ewhoring on craigslist (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:7i9zoX2n6yAJ:www.hackforums.net/archive/index.php/thread-2688848.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a)?

(yes, I had to look up ewhoring too. The definition (http://www.l33tspot.com/t-what-is-ewhoring-tut) was an eye opening read).

Happy to help,

Flounder

[david i]

Further developments!

I’ll put off the further on-topic developments to dismiss David’s nonsense first;

Tactic 14 from the LDM: "When you have nothing of substance to offer against your opponent, endeavor to dismiss his substance as 'nonsense'"


seeing as his thinly veiled has traded in its former timidity for open faced hostility.

Tactic 16 (a and b) from the Losing Debater's Manual: "When you have nothing of substance to offer against your opponent, accuse him of timidity and/or hostility"



1. Defamation of Character.

Tactic 29 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Endeavor to label characterization of your status-of-argument, as defamation".




In point of fact, this ad-hominem slur comes from David himself, based on presumption, hyperbole and a transparently specious analogy*:

Tactic 7 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "When you have lost on points of substance, endeavor to embrace your opponent's successful tactics (mimicking his observations of hyperbole, ad hominem insult and so forth"


[*David’s self-styled “heady area of debate” amounting to the excretion


Tactic 1 from the LDM: "Having nothing of substance to offer in debate, engage in Ad Hominem insult (eg. "excretion")



Even by schoolboy standards, this is mere insult.

Tactic 1 from the LDM: "Having nothing of substance to offer in debate, engage in Ad Hominem insult (eg. "mere insult")



For a grown man to present it as heady debate is to stretch credulity.

Tactic 16 from the LDM: "Having nothing of substance to offer in debate, express incredulity"




My interpretation: David tossed out his insult, I rebuke him for it.

Tactic 18 from the LDM: "Having lost on points of substance, assert that inappropriate insult was given.



In lieu of an apology, he chose instead to follow up that insult with a hollow sermonising critique of said rebuke and an attempt at (in my view, an embarrassingly clumsy) character assassination.

Tactic 19 from the LDM: "Having nothing of substance to offer in debate, assert clumsiness on the part of your opponent"



In summation: the guy has no class.

Tactic 1 from the LDM: "Having nothing of substance to offer in debate, engage in Ad Hominem insult (eg. "no class")




I don’t think there is a “Loser’s Debating Manual”. I think that’s why I can’t find an ISBN, or any references to such a manual at all, apart from when said is quoted from by David.

Tactic 33 from the Losing Debaters Manual: "Be unduly concrete". Note that Tactic 33 is a defense mechanism in a case in which one has a weak position, but also it is a tactic that tends to get one into the situation of needing the LDM in the first place.



I think that’s why he demurred 5 times in a row. There is no ISBN, because there’s no such publication...

Tactic 8 (iirc) from the LDM: "Absent substance to offer in debate, endeavor to instruct your opponent in what he should do"


... Protagoras this is not. I think what I’ve wasted the last 10 minutes looking for is merely

Tactic 26 from the LDM: "Absent issues of substance to offer in debate, lament your wasted time"



a grown man’s self-serving, self-penned list of some inane and even circular one liners, which he o attempt critique of his “opponents” [his word].

Tactic 1 from the LDM: "When you have lost on points of substance, engage in Ad Hominem insult"

Tactic 3 from the LDM: "Straw Man"




With an unseemly regularity, David is quoting... himself, if you can choke down the chutzpah (Flounder, 2013).

Tactic 1 from the LDM: "When you have lost on points of substance, engage in Ad Hominem insult"

Tactic 7 from the LDM: "When you have lost on points of substance, endeavor to embrace your opponents successful tactics (verbiage, etc)"




Not that he has the disciple to adhere to his own self-authored rules

Tactic 31 from the LDM: "When you have lost on issues of substance, profess admiration- of a sort- for your opponent's discipline"


To christen his self penned 30 bullet points a “Loser’s Debating Manual” is itself demonstrably hypocritical

Tactic 3 from the Winner's Debate Manual: "Encourage your opponent to tie himself up in your world view".

It is good to see Flounder wrestling with an embrace of the LDM :)



and the time I’ve wasted looking at the others was similarly stultifying.

Tactic 28 from the LDM: "WHen you have lost on issues of substance, profess boredom, etc"


Suffice to say, as David has such a for his own self penned terms of engagement, I question why should I or anyone else pay more credence to a manual than the author does himself?

Tactic 3 from the Winner's Debate Manual: "Encourage your opponent to tie himself up in your world view".

It is good to see Flounder wrestling with an embrace of the LDM :)


Anyway off to my ignore list David goes. Should I miss him, running one of those old Eliza programs should provide an approximate quality of engagement. If he misses me, he's free to gosub this post by way of reply.

Tactic 9 from the LDM: "Having been destroyed in debate, invoke "ignore"". Cool. The rest of the world will see Flounder's floundering.


This has been fun.

I look forward to a discussion of scammery with those who wish to discuss the substance of the situation. After all, I might well have been the first person on FPG to wonder about RenPei's story.

Just sayin'... ;)

regards

david

[david i]

Good times. Tapatalk and finger typing aren't great for detailed replies, so more later in the eve.

But for Flounder: I'm getting ready to perform a symphony orchestra concert, and I'm nearly 60 years old - do you really think I'm not "old-fashioned"? No, I just treat *all* with equal respect, regardless of race, color, creed, or gender.

How modern.

I haven’t had any cause to "really think" anything about you at all, given that I joined FPG less than a month ago and that this is only the second thread I've seen you in, including my introduction post, though you demonstrate an inordinate interest in my opinion and even an odd passive aggressive flourish (http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/2369-Hi-from-Glasgow!?p=26135&viewfull=1#post26135) by way of a greeting.

For what it is worth, you are misquoting Sailor Kenshin, not me. Adding to the gestalt above, I find the mistake indicative; following the smoke/fire dynamic, I will follow the trail, form an opinion, and get back to you.f

Tactic 24 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "When you have nothing of substance to offer in debate, profess inordinate interest about you by your opponent.

Just sayin'...

regards

david

[Annie]

Getting back on track:


By the way, this may interest you.
https://forums.wildshadow.com/node/87610

I have received vouches from some of the top players in the game

Fairly interesting, but surely there are spicier examples of the Renpei Chen commitment to scruples. Do you still need help ewhoring on craigslist (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:7i9zoX2n6yAJ:www.hackforums.net/archive/index.php/thread-2688848.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a)?

(yes, I had to look up ewhoring too. The definition (http://www.l33tspot.com/t-what-is-ewhoring-tut) was an eye opening read).

Happy to help,

Flounder

I did a little research on ewhoring.

http://moneymakingdiscussion.net/ultimate-ewhoring-guide-to-money/

"I always get my victims to send me the money through Amazon Gift Certificates to my email"

What a strange coincidence that is.

[Jon Szanto]

For what it is worth, you are misquoting Sailor Kenshin, not me. Adding to the gestalt above, I find the mistake indicative; following the smoke/fire dynamic, I will follow the trail, form an opinion, and get back to you.
More anon, but between gigs I saw this and just have to offer my apology. Indeed, when reading last night backstage, the Tapatalk interface is not nearly as readable as my standard browser, and I misattributed the quote. I didn't misquote SK, but I did point to the wrong party, for which I am sorry.

We may continue this later.

[renpei]

@Flounder and Annie. Sometimes I look back at what I've done and I regret it. That was a year ago back when I was immature, hooked to video games, and needed money. Yes I have done some bad things. In fact, the reason I started was because I thought that it was totally justified taking money from a pedophile who deserves it but a week later, both the nature of the activity itself and the fact that when I engaged in conversation, while in character, I realized that they were people with families and lives too and no matter what they did, it wasnt up to me to "deal justice". So i decided the money wasnt worth it and I stopped.
I've also ran a few adf.ly schemes to make money (not illegal at all) but i've stop those. Since there is so much evidence already, I might as well just list everything wrong i've done.

1. I've sent "complaints" to subways, starbucks, etc, in order to recieve free items.
2. I've done what flounder mentions (oh btw, yes the vouch thread isnt glorious but the so called accusations of scamming were all false)
3. I've ran a Amazon Affliate scheme (not illegal, just a way to make money)
4. I've made keyloggers, RAts, Proxies, Booters but i've never spread them. It was solely for my amusement and were always used on myself.

However, ive stopped all of this.

I just want to say though that I am not as clean as I insist I am in the fountain pen scams. I am not Kirkylarky or his aliases but when I got scammed, I was really mad and wanted revenge. I did research found out he used zebrapony, analyzed his messages with me and decided if he could pull it off without getting caught, then so can I. I made the zebrapony on FPG. Thats why the IP addresses are all germany based, and tried to pull a few off.

However, I couldnt go through with it because unlike scamming pedophiles, fountain pen people are the kindest people I know and I really wasnt able to follow through.

EDIT: Just making it clear. I am zebrapony on FPG but not any of the other forums. I not kirkylarky either. I did not end up stealing anything.

So yep. Thats pretty much all my skeletons. I just wanted to say that if I really was a scammer, would I give so much information to pin me down?

@annie. How does amazon gift cards have anything to do with this? I barely use amazon. Amazon.ca has terrible variety and terrible prices while most stuff on Amazon.com have insane shipping costs or doesnt ship to canada.

[Farmboy]

May I ask why you need two login IDs on this or any forum if you are an honest or reformed person?

(You need not answer, the question was rhetorical)

You seem to have a few supporters and seem to want to participate here. While I would delete your accounts on principle, others are more tolerant. You have admitted to participating in illegal activities after denying the same.

Why should I believe you now? (You can answer this one if you want.)

[renpei]

May I ask why you need two login IDs on this or any forum if you are an honest or reformed person?

(You need not answer, the question was rhetorical)

You seem to have a few supporters and seem to want to participate here. While I would delete your accounts on principle, others are more tolerant. You have admitted to participating in illegal activities after denying the same.

Why should I believe you now? (You can answer this one if you want.)

I beleive it will be a good idea if zebrapony is deleted. As I said, I was going to try and scam some people as it was done to me but I just couldnt do it. When i tried, I saw innocent people and I realized they did nothing wrong to deserve it.

Does this make me innocent? No it does not. Was it illegal? Im not a law expert but what I have done was not illegal. It was about to become illegal but I stopped before it was to late.

Did I deny doing anything illegal? Yes I have. As far as I am aware, none of the wrongs ive done were illegal. Even what flounders mentioned.

Anyways, I hope that clears things up


EDIT: I want to apologize to those who beleived me and supported me. Despite the fact that I wasnt kirkylarky, I was about to become someone similar to him/her. Also, I apologize for not giving all the facts which show that I am not perfectly innocent and I feel really bad about it.

[Laura N]

Where's my apology from renpei and "Andrew W"? Where are the apologies for Flounder, Annie and chiaroscuro from renpei and "Andrew W"?

Because renpei, even if you somehow are not kirkylarky, in my opinion you have "scammed" us all as readers. You have defended yourself, and allowed or prompted others to do so, knowing that you weren't being totally honest. To me, it's been sad to watch good people get angry with each other. It's been ugly to see people attacked for raising issues or questions. But you sat back and watched. You watched the discord and distrust grow, thanks to your portrait of yourself as an innocent victim, which you now acknowledge isn't correct. Even now, you don't seem to care about those innocent people whose motives or truthfulness have been attacked for questioning you.

If you really are 16, I hope you turn your life around. And if you are really 16, you can.

But the compassion I feel is for the people harmed or upset by this episode.

[renpei]

I beg to differ.
I have scammed you all and have made an apology (I know it was no where sufficient) above where I apologized for abusing you and the other peoples trusts and withholding information. I only withheld the information it did not contribute to the discussion at hand which was whether I was kirkylarky or not.

And I have engaged in not illegal but unethical activities in the past when I was a sophomore and still immature and such. As I said, I only tried to pull the scam because I was mad and my sense of judgement was impaired. I managed to stop myself in time luckily but I know I am still at fault.

Yes I am 16.

I will not apologize to flounder, annie, or chia because they are accusing me of being kirkylarky, they were being rude, and they were way off. If anything, they should be apologizing to me.

I will and I did, apologize to everyone else

[david i]

@Flounder and Annie. Sometimes I look back at what I've done and I regret it. That was a year ago back when I was immature, hooked to video games, and needed money. Yes I have done some bad things. In fact, the reason I started was because I thought that it was totally justified taking money from a pedophile who deserves it but a week later, both the nature of the activity itself and the fact that when I engaged in conversation, while in character, I realized that they were people with families and lives too and no matter what they did, it wasnt up to me to "deal justice". So i decided the money wasnt worth it and I stopped.
I've also ran a few adf.ly schemes to make money (not illegal at all) but i've stop those. Since there is so much evidence already, I might as well just list everything wrong i've done.

1. I've sent "complaints" to subways, starbucks, etc, in order to recieve free items.
2. I've done what flounder mentions (oh btw, yes the vouch thread isnt glorious but the so called accusations of scamming were all false)
3. I've ran a Amazon Affliate scheme (not illegal, just a way to make money)
4. I've made keyloggers, RAts, Proxies, Booters but i've never spread them. It was solely for my amusement and were always used on myself.

However, ive stopped all of this.

I just want to say though that I am not as clean as I insist I am in the fountain pen scams. I am not Kirkylarky or his aliases but when I got scammed, I was really mad and wanted revenge. I did research found out he used zebrapony, analyzed his messages with me and decided if he could pull it off without getting caught, then so can I. I made the zebrapony on FPG. Thats why the IP addresses are all germany based, and tried to pull a few off.

However, I couldnt go through with it because unlike scamming pedophiles, fountain pen people are the kindest people I know and I really wasnt able to follow through.

EDIT: Just making it clear. I am zebrapony on FPG but not any of the other forums. I not kirkylarky either. I did not end up stealing anything.

So yep. Thats pretty much all my skeletons. I just wanted to say that if I really was a scammer, would I give so much information to pin me down?

@annie. How does amazon gift cards have anything to do with this? I barely use amazon. Amazon.ca has terrible variety and terrible prices while most stuff on Amazon.com have insane shipping costs or doesnt ship to canada.

Sorry to leave the long quote, but these things have a way of disappearing.

Whether or not you are Kirky, you do appear to be an evolving criminal, and your rationale (such as it is) for your behavior sounds strikingly like that of Brandon.

Ahh yes, so four months ago, or whatever, you were immature and wholly unethical, but since last week you've grown up.

The problem is, nothing you say has any validity now.

If you were scammed and if you are not that other fellow, you have little cause to complain. You had but a taste of what you, yourself, are.

If you are not the scammer here, you have shown yourself to be of a kind with him.

"hooked on video games and needed money"?

You should be a lot of fun when you are a bit older and hooked on other things.

Basically, by your own admission, you appear to be a bad egg.

regards

david

[david i]

I beg to differ.
I have scammed you all and have made an apology (I know it was no where sufficient) above where I apologized for abusing you and the other peoples trusts and withholding information. I only withheld the information it did not contribute to the discussion at hand which was whether I was kirkylarky or not.

And I have engaged in not illegal but unethical activities in the past when I was a sophomore and still immature and such. As I said, I only tried to pull the scam because I was mad and my sense of judgement was impaired. I managed to stop myself in time luckily but I know I am still at fault.

Yes I am 16.

I will not apologize to flounder, annie, or chia because they are accusing me of being kirkylarky, they were being rude, and they were way off. If anything, they should be apologizing to me.

I will and I did, apologize to everyone else

Your apology of course is meaningless. I know you know that, but it should be said, anyway. Or as they say... just sayin'...

I always am greatly entertained when monsters object to the rudeness of people. ;)

No one should be apologizing to you. At least we've had some fun back and forth d/t your posts, but you do sound a tad delusional, and I say that in my role as physician, not as internet provocateur extraordinaire (cough... cough....)

How many murderers say, "I was mad and my sense of judgement was impaired". Food for thought.

Too, you might be the first kid I've heard say, "I beg to differ", not that this means anything...

regards

david

[david i]

However, I couldnt go through with it because unlike scamming pedophiles, fountain pen people are the kindest people I know and I really wasnt able to follow through.

SNIP

I beleive it will be a good idea if zebrapony is deleted. As I said, I was going to try and scam some people as it was done to me but I just couldnt do it. When i tried, I saw innocent people and I realized they did nothing wrong to deserve it.

Does this make me innocent? No it does not. Was it illegal?

As stated (though in many of your posts, your writing is weak), yes, this makes you a potential (at least) criminal.

regards

david

[renpei]

You are entitled to your own opinion and I mostly agree with you.
I do think my past activities were not so great but they were no where close to illegal. None of it was illegal.

As for the zebrapony incident, I stopped myself before it got to far and despite the fact that it is in no way a thing to celebrate or even a good thing, I do ask that you to stop comparing me to a murderer.

[renpei]

When are apologies ever meaningful? I tried my best to be sincere and there is sincerity in it as I truly feel bad about decieving some of the people on here. However, it is meaningless as apologies never acomplish anything. I will try my best to use actions to prove that I really am sorry (I am thinking about this)

[Jon Szanto]

None of it was illegal.
Let me be perfectly blunt: I don't give a flying fuck if it was illegal, borderline illegal, or illegal in some areas of the world. What it was, and is, is a slap in the face of a well-meaning community of people who come together over a common interest.

You've taken that good spirit and wiped your shoes on it. No matter the reactions to you, you owe each and every person on the board an apology, followed by your absence, taken voluntarily on your part. You don't deserve the information, good graces, or camaraderie that is in place in a gathering such as this.

Suck it up, Buttercup. This was a pretty massive fail, and you need to go do some introspection before being considered a part of this body of interested parties.

[The Paranoid Nudnik]

"He that cannot forgive others breaks the bridge over which he must pass himself; for every man has need to be forgiven." - Thomas Fuller

More time folks. . .

Vic

[fountainpenkid]

Only one thing to do, renpei. GET OFF THE INTERNET> TAKE A HIKE> ENJOY THE BEAUTY OF THE NATURAL WORLD. It is amazing what it can do, and you, put into deeper thoughts, might come to a realization.

[david i]

You are entitled to your own opinion and I mostly agree with you.
I do think my past activities were not so great but they were no where close to illegal. None of it was illegal.

As for the zebrapony incident, I stopped myself before it got to far and despite the fact that it is in no way a thing to celebrate or even a good thing, I do ask that you to stop comparing me to a murderer.

No one compared you to a murderer.

So, stop engaging in Straw Man.

cheers.

-david

[david i]

When are apologies ever meaningful? I tried my best to be sincere and there is sincerity in it as I truly feel bad about decieving some of the people on here. However, it is meaningless as apologies never acomplish anything. I will try my best to use actions to prove that I really am sorry (I am thinking about this)

Actions, sonny. Actions.

[Farmboy]

How about you repay those you 'legally' scammed?

Having lunch with your mom and playing checkers at a senior center doesn't erase or make up for what you freely admit you did. I'm not going to waste time reading all the other sites you talk about but it almost sounds like you are bragging about what you did there. Even if you did do something nice how many of us expect you were looking for an angle? You have earned a reputation and it will not change with a few posts.

Where are your parents? Do they approve of your actions? What if someone scammed your grandparents wait, have you taken care of that already?

[Sailor Kenshin]

"He that cannot forgive others breaks the bridge over which he must pass himself; for every man has need to be forgiven." - Thomas Fuller

More time folks. . .

Vic

True. But forgiveness does not mean you jump in front of a speeding train.

[david i]

You are entitled to your own opinion

"entitled to opinion" is a Straw Man.

This discussion is not about whether I am (or anyone is) entitled to an opinion.

regards

david

[david i]

When are apologies ever meaningful?


Of note, I have received many meaningful apologies over the years. I did not assert that apologies must be meaningless, merely that yours is, or-- if we wish a slightly more flexible interpretation-- yours appears to be (meaningless).

You show more concern for the context that you assert led you to this path than for your actions, and you show more objection to being called out, than you do contrition at your (at least ) borderline criminal behavior. Too, I harbor great worries about what you, a teen, consider leisure activities. Of course, if in fact you are an unwashed 40 year old, sitting in mom's basement in your underwear, just playing.... well, at least you have provoked engaging dialogue which provides lessons to those reading it.

Perhaps you should give up pens and give up the internet for a year or so. Meet with a therapist or trusted religious counselor. Work on identifying and absorbing the life lessons that will let you function well and not become a monster.

regards

david

[Nonsensical]

I beg to differ.
I have scammed you all and have made an apology (I know it was no where sufficient) above where I apologized for abusing you and the other peoples trusts and withholding information. I only withheld the information it did not contribute to the discussion at hand which was whether I was kirkylarky or not.

And I have engaged in not illegal but unethical activities in the past when I was a sophomore and still immature and such. As I said, I only tried to pull the scam because I was mad and my sense of judgement was impaired. I managed to stop myself in time luckily but I know I am still at fault.

Yes I am 16.

I will not apologize to flounder, annie, or chia because they are accusing me of being kirkylarky, they were being rude, and they were way off. If anything, they should be apologizing to me.

I will and I did, apologize to everyone else
I wouldn't go as far as to say that they were accusing you of being kirkylarky, and I don't think that they were being overly rude either. When people are lied to, and find out about it, obviously their first reaction is not going to be a pretty one. More than actually accusing you of kirkylarky, there was simply a lot of circumstantial evidence provided, evidence that would indicate that you are somehow linked to this kirkylarky person. Take a step back, look at the information provided, and you try convincing yourself that it is not in the least suspicious. Of course, in my opinion it is still all circumstantial, and not quite damning, at least to the matter of whether or not you are kirkylarky or not.

Sometimes, no-one is completely in the wrong, and no-one is completely right either. I've learnt that at times like these, where I know that I haven't done the right thing, it is better to just apologise.

[mhguda]

I am still bothered by this post:

posted by Annie

Re: Help Bring Down This Scammer - Kirkylarky

Renpei is the name I was given by Amazon of the person who collected the gift certificate I sent. And no, I haven't had the Carene he promised and no, I will not just chalk it up to experience.

In http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php/2502-Help-Bring-Down-This-Scammer-Kirkylarky?highlight=renpei+kirkylarky , a thread which I also followed. I thought at the time that this kirkylarky might have somehow gotten hold of the Renpei ID, but frankly I don't think so anymore...

[Ray-VIgo]

Whoever sells strawmen is making a mint on this forum. I'm in the wrong profession.

[david i]

Whoever sells strawmen is making a mint on this forum. I'm in the wrong profession.

What's your profession?

Franchises do offer opportunity. ;)

regards

david

[Flounder]

Participating in this thread has certainly been a grubby trip round the weird side of the internet. Having back-handed David with a truth slap and open-palmed our resident ewhore with the other, I'm off to scrub up in Dettol. Have a great weekend everyone! :D

[de_pen_dent]

Actions, sonny. Actions.

Coming from the biggest loudmouth hypocrite on FPG (who engages in strawmen, ad hominems, etc and then pretends to be above all of that), I think the God of Irony just keeled over with a heart attack.

[Jon Szanto]

I think the God of Irony just keeled over with a heart attack.
RIP, GoI. Ars longa, vita brevis.

[Annie]

Where's my apology from renpei and "Andrew W"? Where are the apologies for Flounder, Annie and chiaroscuro from renpei and "Andrew W"?

Because renpei, even if you somehow are not kirkylarky, in my opinion you have "scammed" us all as readers. You have defended yourself, and allowed or prompted others to do so, knowing that you weren't being totally honest. To me, it's been sad to watch good people get angry with each other. It's been ugly to see people attacked for raising issues or questions. But you sat back and watched. You watched the discord and distrust grow, thanks to your portrait of yourself as an innocent victim, which you now acknowledge isn't correct. Even now, you don't seem to care about those innocent people whose motives or truthfulness have been attacked for questioning you.

If you really are 16, I hope you turn your life around. And if you are really 16, you can.

But the compassion I feel is for the people harmed or upset by this episode.

Why do you imagine I want an apology? I want my money back.

[Annie]

Actions, sonny. Actions.

Coming from the biggest loudmouth hypocrite on FPG (who engages in strawmen, ad hominems, etc and then pretends to be above all of that), I think the God of Irony just keeled over with a heart attack.

There isn't a way for me to register thanks for this post more than once, but if I could, I would.

[Annie]

How about you repay those you 'legally' scammed?

Having lunch with your mom and playing checkers at a senior center doesn't erase or make up for what you freely admit you did. I'm not going to waste time reading all the other sites you talk about but it almost sounds like you are bragging about what you did there. Even if you did do something nice how many of us expect you were looking for an angle? You have earned a reputation and it will not change with a few posts.

Where are your parents? Do they approve of your actions? What if someone scammed your grandparents wait, have you taken care of that already?

I wonder how those establishments he volunteers at are going to view his actions. They might be unhappy about finding that someone who is in close contact with the vulnerable elderly has admitted to some but not all of his scamming.

[renpei]

How about you repay those you 'legally' scammed?

Having lunch with your mom and playing checkers at a senior center doesn't erase or make up for what you freely admit you did. I'm not going to waste time reading all the other sites you talk about but it almost sounds like you are bragging about what you did there. Even if you did do something nice how many of us expect you were looking for an angle? You have earned a reputation and it will not change with a few posts.

Where are your parents? Do they approve of your actions? What if someone scammed your grandparents wait, have you taken care of that already?

I wonder how those establishments he volunteers at are going to view his actions. They might be unhappy about finding that someone who is in close contact with the vulnerable elderly has admitted to some but not all of his scamming.

I did not scam anyone. If I had your money, I would give it back but I do not have it.

[Annie]

How about you repay those you 'legally' scammed?

Having lunch with your mom and playing checkers at a senior center doesn't erase or make up for what you freely admit you did. I'm not going to waste time reading all the other sites you talk about but it almost sounds like you are bragging about what you did there. Even if you did do something nice how many of us expect you were looking for an angle? You have earned a reputation and it will not change with a few posts.

Where are your parents? Do they approve of your actions? What if someone scammed your grandparents wait, have you taken care of that already?

I wonder how those establishments he volunteers at are going to view his actions. They might be unhappy about finding that someone who is in close contact with the vulnerable elderly has admitted to some but not all of his scamming.

I did not scam anyone. If I had your money, I would give it back but I do not have it.

Well that's a bit of a pigging shame. No matter. I believe the mounties always get their man.

[AndrewW]

Where's my apology from renpei and "Andrew W"? Where are the apologies for Flounder, Annie and chiaroscuro from renpei and "Andrew W"?

Because renpei, even if you somehow are not kirkylarky, in my opinion you have "scammed" us all as readers. You have defended yourself, and allowed or prompted others to do so, knowing that you weren't being totally honest. To me, it's been sad to watch good people get angry with each other. It's been ugly to see people attacked for raising issues or questions. But you sat back and watched. You watched the discord and distrust grow, thanks to your portrait of yourself as an innocent victim, which you now acknowledge isn't correct. Even now, you don't seem to care about those innocent people whose motives or truthfulness have been attacked for questioning you.

If you really are 16, I hope you turn your life around. And if you are really 16, you can.

But the compassion I feel is for the people harmed or upset by this episode.

The heck did I do? I quietly bailed out of the discussion a while ago because it'd only lead to more frustration on everyone's part.
If you're going to try to weasel something out of me, feel free to, but it probably won't go anywhere.

...And well, wow. Did not expect the whole thing to go that way.

[david i]

Participating in this thread has certainly been a grubby trip round the weird side of the internet. Having back-handed David with a truth slap and open-palmed our resident ewhore with the other, I'm off to scrub up in Dettol. Have a great weekend everyone! :D

Flounder is an internet wuss?

Fun stuff.

regards

d

[david i]

Actions, sonny. Actions.

Coming from the biggest loudmouth hypocrite on FPG (who engages in strawmen, ad hominems, etc and then pretends to be above all of that), I think the God of Irony just keeled over with a heart attack.

Tactic 1 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "When truly you have lost on issues of substance, engage in Ad Hominem insult"

Tactic 7 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "When you cannot compete with your opponent on issues of substance, endeavor to embrace your opponent's tactics".

Tactic 3 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "When you cannot compete with your opponent on issues of substance, embrace the Straw Man". (eg. "pretends to be above all that").

Thanks, dpendent, for providing such good illustrations. ;)

Good thing is, I can treat your heart attack.

Just sayin'...

regards

david

[Farmboy]

I did not scam anyone. If I had your money, I would give it back but I do not have it.

You should go check what you wrote in post #136 and #140.

T

[Freddie]

Still fascinatin' and entertainin'..

Edit..22:09..Amazin'...

This *Stuff* is noteworthy.."Apparently Kirkylarky scammed her. And as I said, I am not kirkylarky.
I confessed that I almost did what kirkylarky did but as I said, I stopped before it was too late as I couldnt deal with the fact that I was conning innocent people."

Fred

..No doubt whatsoever..
that this Grifter has no sense
of self preservation.... .

[renpei]

@Farmboy. Apparently Kirkylarky scammed her. And as I said, I am not kirkylarky.
I confessed that I almost did what kirkylarky did but as I said, I stopped before it was too late as I couldnt deal with the fact that I was conning innocent people.

[Farmboy]

Reread what you have written. In your own words, "I have scammed you all".

And Subway and Starbucks and Amazon users and who knows what else you have done. Likely few care, most just want you gone.

[de_pen_dent]

Tactic 1 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "When truly you have lost on issues of substance, engage in Ad Hominem insult"

Tactic 7 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "When you cannot compete with your opponent on issues of substance, endeavor to embrace your opponent's tactics".

Tactic 3 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "When you cannot compete with your opponent on issues of substance, embrace the Straw Man". (eg. "pretends to be above all that").

Thanks, dpendent, for providing such good illustrations. ;)

Good thing is, I can treat your heart attack.

Just sayin'...

regards

david

Blah blah blah blah. You may think you are being very clever and logical, but this is what you come across as:

https://imageshack.us/a/img211/111/mg8687.jpg

A poo-flinging monkey that is very proud of its ability to fling poo, and that runs around in masturbatory excitement when others dont fling poo back, thinking of that as some kind of a "victory".

You are a sad, sad little man who thinks haranguing people on a pen forum is cool, who thinks winning "debates" that only you seem to a give a rat's fucking ass about is somehow a measure of toughness, and that anyone who doesnt want to stoop to your level is too thin-skinned and doesnt "belong on the internet". Your posts are all about trying to show off to the rest of the FPG community about what a bad-ass you are.

Debate with you? Are you joking? You may know a lot about vintage pens, but you are a pathetic, miserable wretch of a man desperately looking for validation on a pen forum by winning all sorts of minor pissing contests and verbally bullying people who would prefer to refrain from that sort of behaviour.

I suggest you make this your avatar:

http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo223/KaranOfMacedonia/jokes/InternetToughGuyKARA.jpg

[Pendragon]

Wow, what a friendly vibe! ;)

[david i]

Blah blah blah blah.


Tactic 27 from the LDM: "Having lost on issues of substance, engage in dismissive baby talk"


but this is what you come across as:

Tactic 1 from the LDM: "Having lost on issues of substance, vent frustration and attempt to divert with Ad Hominem Insult verbally or with photos"


You may think you are being very clever and logical,

Tactic 3 from the LDM: "Straw Man"


A poo-flinging monkey that is very proud of its ability to fling poo, and that runs around in masturbatory excitement when others dont fling poo back, thinking of that as some kind of a "victory".


Tactic 1 from the LDM: "Having lost on issues of substance, vent frustration and attempt to divert with Ad Hominem Insult"



You are a sad,


Tactic 1 from the LDM: "Having lost on issues of substance, vent frustration and attempt to divert with Ad Hominem Insult

Tactic 5 from the LDM: The Telepath: "Having lost on issues of substance, act as though you can read the mind of your opponent and find-- surprise-- that what you find there is not good.

Always a classic, thanks :)


who thinks haranguing people on a pen forum is cool,

Tactic 3 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Having lost on issues of substance, embrace the Straw Man:



who thinks winning "debates" that only you seem to a give

Tactic 3 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Having lost on issues of substance, embrace the Straw Man"

A pattern emerges...


a rat's fucking ass

Tactic 9 from the LDM: "Having lost on issues of substance, get cranky"

Just sayin'...


about is somehow a measure of toughness, and that anyone who doesnt want to stoop

Tactic 3 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Having lost on issues of substance, embrace the Straw Man"


to your level is too thin-skinned and doesnt "belong on the internet".

Tactic 3 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Having lost on issues of substance, embrace the Straw Man"



Your posts are all about trying to show off to the rest of the FPG community about what a bad-ass you are.

Tactic 6 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Having lost on issues of substance, engage in... Projection"



Debate with you? Are you joking?

Tactic 3 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Having lost on issues of substance, embrace the Straw Man"

Also... you never really will know, which I s'pose contributes to uncontrolled frustration expressed in your posts.



You may know a lot about vintage pens,

Tactic 3 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Having lost on issues of substance, embrace the Straw Man"

Also, thanks for giving me permission to know a lot about vintage pens, or did you mean... "might".



but you are a pathetic, miserable wretch of a man desperately looking for validation on a pen forum by winning all sorts of minor pissing contests and verbally bullying people who would prefer to refrain from that sort of behaviour.

Tactic 1 from the LDM: "Having lost on issues of substance, vent frustration and attempt to divert with Ad Hominem Insult.

Tactic 5 from the LDM: The Telepath: "Having lost on issues of substance, act as though you can read the mind of your opponent and find-- surprise-- that what you find there is not good.

Tactic 6 from the LDM: Projection.

---------

Notice the fellow offered no opinions about the Repei situation and didn't thank me for being first to note something funny about his story.

Notice how caught up he is in... me. Cool ;)

Notice his growing frustration because he will not be engaged in the non-issues he offers to support his "point", whatever that point is, which we cannot tell from his note.

This is fun.

Your turn, matey :)

regards

david

[david i]

Wow, what a friendly vibe! ;)

Verily. I see why he is so dependent. ;)

regards

d

[de_pen_dent]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_2IZruYZ3HGY/SorH16cJBbI/AAAAAAAAAU0/mBVlgVUpvyY/s400/monkey_poo.jpg



blah blah blah.



Your turn, matey

You flatter yourself.

[mhguda]

kirkylarky and renpei are having a ball.

[de_pen_dent]

kirkylarky and renpei are having a ball.

I think this thread stopped being about scammers and became more about posturing a long time ago.

[david i]

blah blah blah.



Your turn, matey

You flatter yourself.

Tactic 6 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Projection"

Charming :)
regards

d

[david i]

kirkylarky and renpei are having a ball.

I think this thread stopped being about scammers and became more about posturing a long time ago.

Tactic 32 from the LDM: "When you have nothing of substance to offer in a discussion, lament that there is nothing of substance in the discussion".

Just sayin'...

regards

d

[de_pen_dent]

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w25/jjh4/Monkey%20II/poop.jpg


About what I expected. We are done, little poo-monkey.

Rest of y'all - dont get more popcorn :)

[HughC]

I've had a couple long "debates" with David over the years, always good "fun" if hard work !! Disappointing to see tactics such as the above which aren't needed and display poor taste, opinions vary and that's just the way it goes. BTW I hate popcorn...

[david i]

[QUOTE=david i;31597]


About what I expected. We are done, little poo-monkey.



Tactic 6 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Projection".

Just sayin'...

regards

david

[de_pen_dent]

I've had a couple long "debates" with David over the years, always good "fun" if hard work !! Disappointing to see tactics such as the above which aren't needed and display poor taste, opinions vary and that's just the way it goes. BTW I hate popcorn...

I think it is classless to accuse someone of being "sexist" when they are simply trying to be polite. I think it is classless to verbally harangue and badger anyone who disagrees with him, and say words to the effect of "grow a thick skin or get out of the internet" to people who simply dont want to get into an antagonistic discussion. That is the mindset of a playground bully. David may know his pens, but he is a sorry, sorry excuse of a human being. I have absolutely no regrets for calling him out on his poo-flinging.

And this isnt nasty. Not by a long shot. :)

[david i]

I've had a couple long "debates" with David over the years, always good "fun" if hard work !! Disappointing to see tactics such as the above which aren't needed and display poor taste, opinions vary and that's just the way it goes. BTW I hate popcorn...

Yep. Any substance-oriented discussion will be productive ,as Hugh and I well know. The other stuff out there merely entertains me. The flounder-ish players provide me some nice insights into the behavior of those who cannot generate coherent substance-oriented positions. I find them most refreshing.

regards

david

[david i]

I think it is classless to accuse someone of being "sexist" when they are simply trying to be polite.

Straw Man: Tactic 3 from the Losing Debater's Manual


I think it is classless to verbally harangue and badger anyone who disagrees with him,


Straw Man: Tactic 3 from the Losing Debater's Manual


and say words to the effect of "grow a thick skin or get out of the internet" to people who simply dont want to get into an antagonistic discussion.


Straw Man: Tactic 3 from the Losing Debater's Manual

Might be time for him to post more non antagonistic cartoons? hehehehe



That is the mindset of a playground bully.


Tactic 6 from the Losing Debater's Manual: Projection.



David may know his pens

Straw Man: Tactic 3 from the Losing Debater's Manual

Weird that this critter offers me permission to know pens. Or did he mean, "might"? Just sayin'...


but he is a sorry, sorry excuse of a human being.

Tactic 1 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "Absent anything of substance to offer, attempt Ad Hominem insult to divert discussion from your losing position."



I have absolutely no regrets for calling him out on his poo-flinging.

Tactic 32 from the LDM: "When you have regrets, deny having regrets"


And this isnt nasty. Not by a long shot.

Indeed, I am grateful for the insights it offers into those who cannot form strong cases for what passes for their positions.

Thanks again for the entertainment.

Your turn, matey.

-d

[david i]

I remain validated too at having been such an early identifier of something odd in Renpei's notes. :)

regards

david

[david i]

About what I expected. We are done, little poo-monkey.

Rest of y'all - dont get more popcorn :)

Tactic 27 from the LDM: "When you having nothing of substance to offer in discussion, declare "we are done""

Also known as the "passive-aggressive flourish"

Note, too, in keeping with the dysfunctional approach that leads some to have to live the Losing Debater's Manual, quite entertaining for those who do not live the LDM is that those who embrace tactic 27 from the LDM rarely allow themselves really "to be done".

As this sequence reveals so very well in real time today ;)

regards

david

[de_pen_dent]

Blah blah blah... the poo monkey certainly doesnt shut up, does it?

[dannzeman]

Blah blah blah... the poo monkey certainly doesnt shut up, does it?

At this point, I can't tell if you're referring to yourself or someone else.

Since we're having trouble staying on topic I'll just close this thread.