PDA

View Full Version : Italic script - or not!



Empty_of_Clouds
December 8th, 2018, 04:00 AM
Now it may be that I have just overlooked stuff, but I don't recall seeing many examples here of italic nibs being used to write italic script. Here's a rough and ready example of what I am getting at:

https://i.imgur.com/arLOR6fl.jpg


The top example is an approximation of an italic script. The nib is held at an angle to the line and the sharpness of the edges should be evident.

The lower example is done with the nib edge parallel to the writing line, and is more printing than cursive.

So, I was just wondering if people generally buy italic nibs without the intention to write italic script with them.

Is italic script an unloved script?

Pterodactylus
December 8th, 2018, 05:59 AM
For me special grinded nibs are not limited to a specific script/alphabet.
Iˋm also not a calligrapher who writes exactly (or even try to, or want to) in a predefined given Alphabet.
I just enjoy different nib cuts, and do not care about such things.
Of course an italic nib looks nice if used for any kind of italic like writing, but itˋs for sure not limited to a specific subset of writing style.

Btw. Your writing looks awesome (as always), love it, both styles. :applause:

catbert
December 8th, 2018, 06:06 AM
Flex gets all the attention these days, doesn't it?

I enjoy stubs and crisp italics in part because they mitigate my scrawl. I appreciate those who can produce formal calligraphy but have no great desire to do so myself. Are you saying I’m doing it wrong? :rolleyes:

amk
December 8th, 2018, 06:16 AM
If I'm using a cursive italic or stub nib, I always have the nib at 45 degrees, though my daily script is not actually italic. I do, reasonably often, try a bit harder to write true italic.

Like catbert I find a stub or italic improves my writing. Partly because the increased line variation makes any writing look better, partly because I'm trying a bit harder, and partly because it slows me down.

penwash
December 8th, 2018, 10:52 AM
For me special grinded nibs are not limited to a specific script/alphabet.
Iˋm also not a calligrapher who writes exactly (or even try to, or want to) in a predefined given Alphabet.
I just enjoy different nib cuts, and do not care about such things.

This describe my approach to calligraphy also. I bet I'd be kicked out of many "strict" Calligraphy guilds if I tried to become a member :)

To me, owning fountain pens gives me the license to experiment and be free and have fun with different cuts.

And I also agree with Ptero that David's handwriting is excellent.

Paddler
December 8th, 2018, 12:39 PM
The only pen I bought because it had an italic nib was a Platignum Silverline. I bought it because I had never tried an italic nib before and this pen came with the entire set of italic nib inserts from fine to BB. I use this pen to write my standard school-learned hand. The nib seems to punch up the otherwise boring script of mine.

I have purchased other pens with italic nibs but only for the pens; the nibs were secondary considerations.

I like the looks of italic writing as well as the other example provided in the photo, but I don't want to take up calligraphy as a pastime, as I want to save practice time for music.

KrazyIvan
December 8th, 2018, 01:12 PM
I buy italics but use my personal script with them. Like catbert, they make my writing look better than it really is and adds flair without a lot of effort. I do tend to rotate my nib inwards (to the left) so it ends up being a somewhat italicized script. I have flex pens but have not mastered them enough to make my script look good.

Eddie Southgate
December 8th, 2018, 01:40 PM
I subscribe to the catbert and KrazyIvan school and use them to make my daily writing look better . I cant the nib naturally having used Obliques for a bunch of years and do love my flex nibs but am into a really long learning curve as far as learning how to use them properly .

Eddie

Empty_of_Clouds
December 8th, 2018, 04:20 PM
Interesting comments all. Just to be clear, the OP is in no way intended as a criticism of anyone, and certainly not suggesting anyone is doing anything wrong.


Regarding calligraphy: my attempt at italic styling is just an everyday hand rather than an effort to produce flawlessly proportional italic script (which I cannot do anyway). Some of my correspondents, if asked, will tell you that they occasionally receive letters written in this manner. It would take me hours to write such letters in a formal italic script. :)

And now reading the comments I just realised that I've never really tried to write a 'normal' cursive text using an italic nib. Off to have a go right now!

As an additional thought, based on replies, as the italic is intended to be used for italic script (in theory at least) what is a stub nib design for? Assuming that it has a specific purpose.

catbert
December 8th, 2018, 07:57 PM
I subscribe to the catbert and KrazyIvan school and use them to make my daily writing look better . I cant the nib naturally having used Obliques for a bunch of years and do love my flex nibs but am into a really long learning curve as far as learning how to use them properly .

Eddie
Interesting point. Obliques encourage me to angle the nib in order to address the paper smoothly. Sidestrokes become more slanted to maximize line variation and avoid filling in counters (I write small), so the effect is a bit more italic though still mostly vertical.

catbert
December 8th, 2018, 08:03 PM
As an additional thought, based on replies, as the italic is intended to be used for italic script (in theory at least) what is a stub nib design for? Assuming that it has a specific purpose.

Weren’t stubs or 'signature stubs' intended to be a more user-friendly way to lend weight and character to one's mark than italics? They certainly help my chickenscratch look more intentional.

That said, who now uses a music nib to write music? Put ink on paper in the way that suits you with the nib that suits you, regardless of its original purpose, if any. Isn't that the real point or purpose? :)

amk
December 9th, 2018, 01:36 AM
We've been talking as if a nib with line variation 'should' (for purists) only be used for italic, that is, for a humanist script derived from the Italian renaissance.

However, italic nibs can also be used for insular minuscule and uncial scripts. Where, if I remember correctly, the pen is held with the nib straight across, giving thick down strokes and very thin cross strokes. So, they're not just for italic, despite the name. And if you want to write a good Fraktur or textura hand, you'll also want a good thick nib.

I really wish I could acquire a broad, italic, flex nib. Do they exist? Because that's what a quill gives - you have a bit of bounciness that lets you do, for instance, a really fat downstroke for 'f' and 's' in Bastarda. It's very difficult to do that with a regular italic nib.

But I agree 100% with Penwash. If we wanted 'must' and 'should' and 'can't' and rules, we wouldn't get much fun out of our fountain pens. From the Pilot Parallel to the Platinum music nib, though Franklin-Christoph flex, the whole point of fountain pens is that there's so much variety to enjoy and so many inks to enjoy it with.

ethernautrix
December 9th, 2018, 05:17 AM
44122

Pterodactylus
December 9th, 2018, 05:34 AM
Pilot Parallel pens are great, perfect italic nibs, affordable and a lot of fun.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4278/35464662366_cc4a1a8507_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/W2TExY)Quote 005 (https://flic.kr/p/W2TExY) by Ptero Pterodactylus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/117783735@N07/)

(Pilot Parallel 2.4 mm ..... KWZ Azure #4)


Btw. I saw that some calligraphers file their parallel pens that the flat front become curved on one side to achieve special writing behavior.

Do anyone follow the “Calligraphy Masters” on YouTube?

I do watch their videos from time to time, they are just amazing.
And even I do not follow the calligraphy approach I admire their skill and how they master their pens.

To be honest this level of mastery which I will never be able to achieve makes me also a bit jealous... :spider:

milkb0at
December 9th, 2018, 03:46 PM
I learned Tom Gourdie italic when I was young - a side project rather than at school - and the style has stuck with me. Gourdie has an emphasis on daily usability, recognising that speed is important, so it's been useful as a basis for my own semi-italic handwriting. I enjoy using italic nibs, but it's not essential, since I don't do formal italic.

I'm not a huge fan of cursive, and even less when using an italic nib for cursive. The nib makes cursive too messy, adding emphasis where there shouldn't be emphasis e.g. when linking the tops of two 'o's. I won't stop people from doing it, though, and I've seen a few examples of handwriting that I've enjoyed despite those "flaws".

ethernautrix, I love what you've done with that Pilot Parallel.

calamus
December 9th, 2018, 07:51 PM
I really wish I could acquire a broad, italic, flex nib. Do they exist? Because that's what a quill gives - you have a bit of bounciness that lets you do, for instance, a really fat downstroke for 'f' and 's' in Bastarda. It's very difficult to do that with a regular italic nib.

I am sure that someone like John Mottishaw or Mike Masuyama could craft an italic or stub nib for you with at least some flex to it.

calamus
December 9th, 2018, 08:03 PM
I sometimes use an italic nib for cursive, but unless I modify my handwriting significantly, it makes it look worse, not better. What I do to make it look better when I write cursive with an italic nib is open up the letters, and make the loops in particular much larger than I normally would, almost like flourishes. Then it looks cool. I also sometimes use it for what I would normally use an edged nib on a dip pen -- not just italic but Foundational, blackletter, uncial, etc. But I find I like dip pens much better for calligraphy. Fountain pens make it too easy, like "driving" with an automatic transmission. Where's the fun in that? But mostly, I like the dip pen inks a lot better for calligraphy.

amk
December 10th, 2018, 01:28 AM
Thanks Calamus, I might get in touch with Mike. I've been impressed by work he's done for me in the past, though it wasn't quite as adventurous as that.

And I have a Franklin Christoph SIG flex nib coming in the post for Christmas, so that will be fun to try out.

Love the 'ruined' Pilot Parallel! that's a lovely grungy style. Please can we get Alan Moore comics like Watchmen and V for Vendetta relettered with that style? It would be great!

Empty_of_Clouds
December 10th, 2018, 02:20 AM
Lucky to get a SIG, not something I'm likely to see now that production has ceased.

Anywho, just received a medium stub and an architect (from a broad nib) from FPNibs.com. The stub is probably the best one I've used yet (in Jowo nibs). Smoother than my italic, really a glider, and yet with well defined variation. The architect is another beast entirely. Ground from a broad Jowo nib it gives almost the exact opposite in line widths to the aforementioned stub. It's wet and super smooth, but is taking me a little time to adjust to how to write with it (i.e. larger more rounded letters and such). Also I had to estimate the angle of the grind and I think I've nailed it at 40 degrees.\

Writing samples in a day or two when I have better control of them. :)

aquafox
December 10th, 2018, 04:39 AM
How can a lefty like me hold it correctly? Anyone willing to share a photo?
I have looked online at those drawings, but I fail to understand how to keep the pen at the right angle without having to hook my hand (like a mirrored version of the right handed, but upside down. This means the nib points toward my chest!)

Kulprit
December 10th, 2018, 08:46 PM
How can a lefty like me hold it correctly? Anyone willing to share a photo?
I have looked online at those drawings, but I fail to understand how to keep the pen at the right angle without having to hook my hand (like a mirrored version of the right handed, but upside down. This means the nib points toward my chest!)

Try an oblique nib (generally a right-foot oblique for you southpaws).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

calamus
December 10th, 2018, 09:43 PM
How can a lefty like me hold it correctly? Anyone willing to share a photo?
I have looked online at those drawings, but I fail to understand how to keep the pen at the right angle without having to hook my hand (like a mirrored version of the right handed, but upside down. This means the nib points toward my chest!)

I'm sure there must be a way to do it, because they make special italic nibs for southpaws.
There's a video about fountain pens for lefties from Goulet Pens at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QemooqfJcfg. I haven't watched it, but it might be useful.

Voiren
December 11th, 2018, 01:05 PM
I've tried writing in italic, but it looks awful when you can't keep a consistent slant (even with guidelines) and I don't like it enough to put the practise in, really.

I've been doing semi-Uncial now and then, like in my ink tests - I find that much easier to write as it is closer to my normal writing, which is fairly straight up and down and curved, and I think it still looks pretty good even when you aren't very consistent with it! I find it more immediately rewarding. Mine has probably drifted somewhat from what I started off copying, as I haven't checked my letter forms against anything for a while...

calamus
December 11th, 2018, 02:01 PM
I've tried writing in italic, but it looks awful when you can't keep a consistent slant (even with guidelines) and I don't like it enough to put the practise in, really.

I've been doing semi-Uncial now and then, like in my ink tests - I find that much easier to write as it is closer to my normal writing, which is fairly straight up and down and curved, and I think it still looks pretty good even when you aren't very consistent with it! I find it more immediately rewarding. Mine has probably drifted somewhat from what I started off copying, as I haven't checked my letter forms against anything for a while...

At one point I drifted so far off from Foundational because I wasn't checking my letters against Edward Johnston's originals that it practically turned into a different hand! That would have been fine if it were sufficiently attractive, but next to Edward Johnston's hand my letters looked deformed.

Scrawler
December 15th, 2018, 07:26 PM
I really wish I could acquire a broad, italic, flex nib. Do they exist? Because that's what a quill gives - you have a bit of bounciness that lets you do, for instance, a really fat downstroke for 'f' and 's' in Bastarda. It's very difficult to do that with a regular italic nib.

I am sure that someone like John Mottishaw or Mike Masuyama could craft an italic or stub nib for you with at least some flex to it.

You don't need to go to that extent. I have several flex stub pens.

Empty_of_Clouds
December 29th, 2018, 04:01 AM
Okay, I've finally received the architect grind from FPNibs.com

How it should be used is kind of eluding me.*

Any advice welcome.



*this assumes that there is a specific purpose to the grind of course.

Wuddus
January 1st, 2019, 11:28 AM
I think trying to write differently and adopt a new hand, was part of why I found fountain pens tedious in earlier stages of life. Adopting, or attempting to adopt a set hand, is a level of conformity that I don't need in my life. If someone judges me for not sticking to a writing style, or not writing neatly or uniformly enough, that's really not the type of person I want in my life. That said, I can be wary of people who write "too neatly", as it might mean they value appearance more than substance, or a striving for validation, and I try to avoid shallow or intensely needy individuals wherever possible.

I'm well aware of the irony of judging, but not liking being judged myself. Also, no offence intended to any neat writers on the forum. Just admitting to my own quirks.

I now just write with my own evolved scrawl, irrespective of what anyone else might think of it, and the only changes that I might make is the size of my writing, to make best use of the italic effect on my normal handwriting. It can lend an unsightly scribble, a modicum of aesthetic interest with no additional effort or interruption of thought.

Kulprit
January 2nd, 2019, 09:16 PM
Okay, I've finally received the architect grind from FPNibs.com

How it should be used is kind of eluding me.*

Any advice welcome.



*this assumes that there is a specific purpose to the grind of course.

It’s really just to add flair to the writing of those who choose to print, especially in block caps. At least, that’s what I’ve always believed. For me at least it just makes a mess of my cursive


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Empty_of_Clouds
January 2nd, 2019, 10:07 PM
That's what I am finding, it's not useful with cursive - although maybe if I'd had a medium grind instead of broad this would have been mitigated somewhat.

KrazyIvan
January 3rd, 2019, 01:45 PM
That's what I am finding, it's not useful with cursive - although maybe if I'd had a medium grind instead of broad this would have been mitigated somewhat.

Yup. that is why it is called an Architect grind. Think of blueprints and architect labeling. It looks really good for the print style of writing.

Empty_of_Clouds
January 4th, 2019, 03:24 AM
Although I did once pass an exam for technical drawing (38 years ago IIRC!), the labelling was block capitals but done in pencil. I don't ever recall looking at blueprints or architectural drawings. Anyway, that makes sense, cheers, and I have tried it and quite like the effect. Not entirely sure of the utility to me, although I suppose I could use it to do headings in my planner! Thanks for the pointers. :)

catbert
January 9th, 2019, 07:24 AM
Interesting comparison of architect and italic nibs. (No affiliation, etc.)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b_TLTZmCQQ

Empty_of_Clouds
January 9th, 2019, 11:20 AM
Good find! And it helps that Salman is an actual calligrapher who can thus show these grinds to their best effect. :)

Pterodactylus
January 9th, 2019, 12:27 PM
Nice video, I was not aware that Salman has a YouTube channel and is into nib grinding.

I remember him from the Calligraphy forum years ago on FPN.

Empty_of_Clouds
February 8th, 2019, 08:47 PM
https://i.imgur.com/zNR9tU4l.jpg

The script still needs a lot of work (as does the photography - particularly regarding lighting)

The image also shows how big this pen is, as the note book is an A5 Rhodia.