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Empty_of_Clouds
March 23rd, 2019, 02:40 PM
Does anyone else think that it is high time that vintage pens had a proper lexicon of condition descriptions?

In an advert I read recently a pen was described as "excellent condition", and in further details it was revealed that the cap band was half-brassed, the cap had a few nicks, the barrel had a depression due to posting of the cap, and the clip was partially brassed.

How is this "excellent condition"?


Perhaps there should be a guide to condition similar to version that is now standard in describing the condition of vintage books.

Jon Szanto
March 23rd, 2019, 02:49 PM
Are you talking globally? or only on the sales here at FPG? Who will determine the terms and their use? How will this be enforced?

I'd probably look to established areas of much higher sales volume and penetration, such as traditional antiques or vintage cars, etc; your suggestion of the vintage books looks like a promising model, too. Nonetheless, you are still faced with a completely unenforcable bundle of rules and terms, and it seems like a fool's errand (I believe that is the phrase). I combine asking for photographic documentation and a strong degree of caveat emptor.

Empty_of_Clouds
March 23rd, 2019, 03:12 PM
Globally.

I understand that this might seem like a fool's errand, but then how did the vintage book condition descriptions come to be accepted as a standard tool? It has to start somehow because, as you point out, it's unenforceable. The book example was only one such example, as you have also noted. However, that does not undermine the idea of applying something similar to vintage pens.


Perhaps in the first instance this should be driven by the more established vintage sellers?


Look, it's just a suggestion, and I believe one based on reasonable expectation of transparency. Please don't bite my head off for suggesting it. I believe a discussion may be helpful.

Voiren
March 23rd, 2019, 03:53 PM
I have a friend who complains a great deal about Amazon sellers' notions of near mint, very good condition, etc on their secondhand books.

Empty_of_Clouds
March 23rd, 2019, 04:38 PM
I've no doubt that in any area where there aren't enforceable guidelines there will be some who will, either willfully or not, fail to describe their wares adequately. That does not mean that having a framework is a bad idea.

Deb
March 23rd, 2019, 04:38 PM
A globally-accepted set of description terms would probably make my life easier. As it is I do my best with ad hoc descriptions but I accept that these leave room for disagreement. Have at it!

fountainpenkid
March 23rd, 2019, 04:55 PM
I like this idea very much. And I actually do think some form of enforcement could be possible if a body were formed and announced to develop the system. Experienced collectors+restorers+sellers could get together, work it out comprehensively, give it a name, and then disseminate/'sell' it. Every time a sale would reference it by name, it would gain more power. The system could give sellers who consistently follow their guidelines a badge of approval or something. Chances of this happening? Unlikely.

Deb
March 23rd, 2019, 05:24 PM
Let's not talk about enforcement before we see how practical this is. I remember the various discussions about measuring flexibility of nibs that were pie in the sky and went nowhere. I think there are some measures that could be agreed but I'm not at all sure it should be dumped on restorers/sellers to do it. We're self-employed and most of us work very long hours and don't have that kind of time to spare. If this discussion doesn't just fade away as most do, and actually shows some practical development, I'll be happy to commit what time I can to it.

pajaro
March 23rd, 2019, 06:12 PM
Someone could bring the idea up to Pen Colectors of America, and let that group make some guidelines, if they haven't already. Then the Pen Collectors could advocate acceptance of definitions.

Jon Szanto
March 23rd, 2019, 06:12 PM
Look, it's just a suggestion, and I believe one based on reasonable expectation of transparency. Please don't bite my head off for suggesting it. I believe a discussion may be helpful.

Please - I only offered a counterpoint, there was no head-biting either written or intended. I am looking at it simply from my perspective, which is: even IF one (many ones, actually) somehow agreed on a grid of terms (something that I've never seen the pen community do on *any* topic) how on Earth would you propose to spread this out? From the discussion forum of one of the smallest sites on the net you are going to reach people and convince them... how?

I am more than happy to support any effort that has a viable, realistic concept for bringing something like this to fruition. If it is another exercise in typing, though, I have to pass. My comment was only a reality check, in intention and (hopefully) execution, based on past similar activities.

Chemyst
March 23rd, 2019, 07:00 PM
I have a friend who complains a great deal about Amazon sellers' notions of near mint, very good condition, etc on their secondhand books.

That is the crux of the matter, right there.

Professionals, such as auction houses and specialist dealers, are going to be knowledgeable about conditions
and hew closely to accepted standards; while amateurs will use standard terms however they personally feel they should be applied.

Changing the lexicon doesn’t affect the root problem.

At best, a trade organization might offer to grade a pen based on their standards and offer their particular assessment and a certification, but that service would need to be widely available, affordable and recognized by buyers as something desirable.

HTH!

Empty_of_Clouds
March 23rd, 2019, 07:00 PM
Sometimes one has to push a lot of small pebbles before the avalanche begins. :)

Empty_of_Clouds
March 23rd, 2019, 07:36 PM
How about something like this.


Museum: Perfect example. No flaws, or damage, or wear.

Near mint: Handling / storage wear only.

Excellent: Handling / storage wear, and /or minor wear from usage, micro scratches.

Fine: Good overall condition but does show considerable wear from usage. Micro scratches present. Some brassing to furniture.

User: Clear signs of hard use. Scratches present, possibly toothmarks, posting wear and considerable loss of plating.



To add to this, an extra category of restored / unrestored.


And to address the question of who might best drive such a framework, I would suggest the collectors. To my thinking serious collectors (and the sellers that sell to them) are more likely to be critical of condition.

Open to other ideas of course.

Roger W.
March 24th, 2019, 12:31 AM
This topic was strongly debated probably some 12 years ago, back when there was even more vintage collectors. Vintage might still have been a heavy presence on the Boards yet then. I think we'd like grading pens to be like coins, easy. Apparently, there is a 6 point grading system for cars - that probably gets closer to it. Still, grading is always subjective. Sellers are always going to have better pens that what the buyer thinks. Could go to a third party to be graded like coins but, I doubt the expense would be as supportable. Many dealers sell using their own grading system which is fairly generic in approach but, generally gets to what they mean. Fair for 1915 will be different for 2015 but, that's understandable as well. Some will say that pens are minted (and they are not) but, we all know what you mean. It became clear then that a generally detailed description of the pen would get the point across without trying to call it "Fine" or "Excellent". There isn't anybody out there going to police this either. If there was a consensus possible on grading I think it would already be in place, as it is not I think you have your answer.

Roger W.

catbert
March 24th, 2019, 05:20 AM
More often than not, I've been surprised — in good and bad ways — by aspects of a pen that weren't described at all.

Chrissy
March 24th, 2019, 05:51 AM
How about something like this.


Museum: Perfect example. No flaws, or damage, or wear. Absolutely not! "Museum quality" means something that looks OK seen from a forward angle in a case. Might not be working. In a capped pen, it might have no nib or a very poor section. Inner cap could be missing major parts. Pen might have been filled with India ink and left for 25 years. What can't be seen doesn't matter in a museum.

Near mint: Handling / storage wear only. After "Brand new and never used," comes "mint". Not "near mint" or "almost mint." I believe everybody already knows what "mint" means. "Mint" is as close as you get to brand new without it being new. Just "mint." Saying "near mint" or "like mint" is like saying "very unique."

Excellent: Handling / storage wear, and /or minor wear from usage, micro scratches. Excellent comes after mint. Might have micro scratches.

Fine: Good overall condition but does show considerable wear from usage. Micro scratches present. Some brassing to furniture. After excellent comes "very good." To many people "fine" might suggest better than very good or excellent or even mint and is an unnecessary "fluffing" step. e.g. there is "fine jewellery" - it usually means precious metals or stones. The only "fine" in pens regularly describes a nib tip width. Best to not use any words that could cause potential confusion.

User: Clear signs of hard use. Scratches present, possibly toothmarks, posting wear and considerable loss of plating. User grade is the lowest.



To add to this, an extra category of restored / unrestored.


And to address the question of who might best drive such a framework, I would suggest the collectors. To my thinking serious collectors (and the sellers that sell to them) are more likely to be critical of condition.

Open to other ideas of course.
Other ideas. Everyone who is a member of FPG will have their own ideas. Not that I'm going to use anything other than my own descriptions when I sell any pens of mine.

Deb
March 24th, 2019, 06:36 AM
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Other ideas. Everyone who is a member of FPG will have their own ideas. Not that I'm going to use anything other than my own descriptions when I sell any pens of mine.

That's right, Chrissy. The more I think about this, the more I am reminded that there is so much more to any pen than some simplistic code for condition. Then there are several types of restorer. I restore conservatively, meaning that my pens are clean and working well, but I have not re-blacked, re-plated or made any attempt to make an old pen look as if it was made yesterday. Is the condition of a pen to which those thing have been done better than my conservatively restored example? I don't think so. In fact I think the reverse is true. I think I'll be sticking to my descriptions which include a report on any flaws and signs of wear. People know what they're getting from me.

azkid
March 24th, 2019, 09:05 AM
Without an organization behind the grading system a grassroots approach may take a long time. It is interesting that record albums enjoy a relatively established grading system but I am not sure how that came to be.

The underlying issue is sellers overstating the condition of their wares. Caveat emptor is rather a big ask. It takes a lot of work and learning and discernment to tilt the odds in one's favor.

Pictures do help. I spend way too much time on ebay looking at watches, pens, pocket knives, and myriad other things.

I have the impression that good quality pen pictures are uncommon vs other collectibles. I am being too polite.

Some of the blurriest, darkest, lowest resolution, least revealing, craptastic pictures I see are of pens. Makes me think it is intentional sometimes. I mean with modern cellphones it isn't that damn hard. And of course almost no one posts good macro shots of the nib. I've gotten more than a few (some expensive) with pitted or worn out nibs.

Wristwatches are a nightmare. Many good pics but of those too many are trying to conceal severe brassing or major internal issues with the watch. I try to avoid purchasing if there's no demonstration of a working balance. And hardly anyone provides one, let alone six, position timing and amplitude information. I once sold a movement and provided all that but it bore no reward for the extra work. Buyers aren't savvy enough to demand it so we all suffer I guess.

Pocket knives? Ugh. 90% are tarnished, worn down crap. Takes forever to find a knife that isn't junk. And even if it looks promising the spring mechanism is worn out or the blade wobbles. Ugh. But at least sellers often detail those issues.

Takes time and mistakes to hone my pen buying skills, learn what to look for, focus on specific models and their potential issues. Even so I have been burned more often than I'd like to think about. But I've also gotten some amazing "sumgai" deals on a few. You win some you lose some?

When I sell I try to be as thorough and honest as I can. I believe in focusing first on doing right by the customer. The problem is people calibrated to overestimaters will think my idea of "minor signs of wear" translates to "tossed onto asphalt out of moving car repeatedly".

Chrissy
March 24th, 2019, 10:53 AM
More than half of the pens sold on ebay don't even have any pictures of the pen with it's cap off. I always wonder how anyone can even think it's possible to sell a fountain pen without removing it's cap to take at least one picture of the business end.

It's like trying to sell a car without adding a picture showing that it has any wheels on it.

Deb
March 24th, 2019, 11:20 AM
It's always a bit of a risk buying in eBay even when the item has what appear to be good photos. The main problems with old pens are cracked nibs and cracks in the cap lip. It's quite easy to conceal those. I tend to pay a lot of attention to the description and I ignore that statement about "the photos form part of the description" because it's so easy to hide faults in photos. I look for the words, "no cracks, bite-marks or deep scratches." Actually, bite-marks can usually be easily dealt with. The other two can be a bit pesky and they may make a low-value pen not worth the effort.

In the end, if the pen you get is seriously damaged, eBay's return policy has improved a lot in recent times. I expect to return about a quarter of all the pens I buy in eBay.

While it might be possible to work up a code of condition for sellers of restored pens, there can never be any kind of enforceable code for eBay sellers of unrestored pens. They're mostly house clearance people with no real interest in pens. Making selling those pens more difficult for them will result in them salvaging the nibs and throwing the pens away.

Empty_of_Clouds
March 24th, 2019, 11:32 AM
The point of the OP is that systems of grading exist for a great many types of collectible. Therefore it is reasonable to suggest a similar approach for fountain pens. The kick back against it is disappointing.

pajaro
March 24th, 2019, 11:53 AM
The point of the OP is that systems of grading exist for a great many types of collectible. Therefore it is reasonable to suggest a similar approach for fountain pens. The kick back against it is disappointing.

I agree. You need not enforce it, it's just creating a common language to describe items. If some misuse it, knowledgeable collectors will figure it out. There do seem to be some terms most people understand.

Jon Szanto
March 24th, 2019, 12:02 PM
The point of the OP is that systems of grading exist for a great many types of collectible. Therefore it is reasonable to suggest a similar approach for fountain pens. The kick back against it is disappointing.

You are getting feedback from people who are active sellers today, people who are active buyers today, and at least one comment that speaks with authority to actual attempts in the past within this very community to enact a similar agenda (with no resultant success). I can't say whether it should be considered disappointing or not, but when putting out a concept for discussion among others, I am always glad when I get rational and significant feedback, even if it ends up showing the flaws or unsustainability of my original concept.

You aren't getting "kickback", you are receiving the sincere responses to your concept proposal. You never said "Don't tell me what I don't want to hear".

TSherbs
March 24th, 2019, 12:14 PM
How about something like this.


Museum: Perfect example. No flaws, or damage, or wear.

Near mint: Handling / storage wear only.

Excellent: Handling / storage wear, and /or minor wear from usage, micro scratches.

Fine: Good overall condition but does show considerable wear from usage. Micro scratches present. Some brassing to furniture.

User: Clear signs of hard use. Scratches present, possibly toothmarks, posting wear and considerable loss of plating.



To add to this, an extra category of restored / unrestored.


And to address the question of who might best drive such a framework, I would suggest the collectors. To my thinking serious collectors (and the sellers that sell to them) are more likely to be critical of condition.

Open to other ideas of course.I like these categories a lot.

Sent from my Moto E (4) using Tapatalk

Deb
March 24th, 2019, 01:11 PM
I don't say - or think - that it is impossible to come up with a description code for condition of pens but like anything worthwhile doing, account has to be taken of the complexity. That is not kick back.

fountainpenkid
March 24th, 2019, 02:39 PM
I don't say - or think - that it is impossible to come up with a description code for condition of pens but like anything worthwhile doing, account has to be taken of the complexity. That is not kick back.

Yes. I think single overall condition ratings have limited utility. There are many different ways to weigh the different facets of a pen's condition; buyers deserve a certain level of descriptive granularity to make their own judgments. Some well-regarded pen sellers use a combination of single rating with concise explanatory notes (e.g David Nishimura of vintagepens.com), which is generally satisfying.

But sellers like Nishimura are not really those in question--we trust their judgement in deciding what to include in their explanatory notes, but may not want to leave such judgement up to less-experienced sellers. For this reason I think a universal condition factor checklist may be more of more use than a universal single grading system. They key, in my opinion, is to build an overall awareness of the different condition issues pens can have (from a nice comprehensive checklist) so that sellers are more likely to notice and make note of them in their sales.

penwash
March 24th, 2019, 02:44 PM
First of all, good discussion and thanks to David for always coming up with topics that engages us to think and participate.

I agree that the need for a standardized condition rating seems to be clear, essential even, for a community of a hobby such as ours.

However, the solution is not as clear cut.

Others already did a great job explaining why subjectivity alone already made it fuzzy, I'd like to add that furthermore, we have the extra dimension of actually using the pen to write (plus sketch in my case).

If you collect watches, you don't create anything with that watch other than building a collection, but with fountain pen, you can potentially fill up 100 journals, write a book, draw 1000 sketches, learn calligraphy, etc.

Now we are faced with the situation where the condition of the fountain pen only accounts for a portion of why I'd want to buy it. The other portion is "does it write the way I wanted it to write?"

As a vintage pen restorer, I found out after a while, that "user grade" pens cosmetic-wise often have (or can fit) absolutely amazing nib. And to make the matter worse, a lot of times, that nib only works with that "user grade" pen.

(Conversely, a pristine sample of a vintage pen may come with a very boring nib that is too good to swap but uninspiring to write/draw with.)

I used to think that I can fit any nib on any pen. Not so today, hundreds of restorations later.

Plus as a buyer, sometimes I'd rather buy a user-grade pen that writes amazingly, rather than one in pristine condition that is not satisfying to write with.

So now, what do we call a user-grade (cosmetic-wise) pen that has a perfect balance in your hand, and writes amazingly with a nib to die for?

Excellent-but-not-really?
User-grade-but-wait...?

fountainpenkid
March 24th, 2019, 03:28 PM
First of all, good discussion and thanks to David for always coming up with topics that engages us to think and participate.

I agree that the need for a standardized condition rating seems to be clear, essential even, for a community of a hobby such as ours.

However, the solution is not as clear cut.

Others already did a great job explaining why subjectivity alone already made it fuzzy, I'd like to add that furthermore, we have the extra dimension of actually using the pen to write (plus sketch in my case).

If you collect watches, you don't create anything with that watch other than building a collection, but with fountain pen, you can potentially fill up 100 journals, write a book, draw 1000 sketches, learn calligraphy, etc.

Now we are faced with the situation where the condition of the fountain pen only accounts for a portion of why I'd want to buy it. The other portion is "does it write the way I wanted it to write?"

As a vintage pen restorer, I found out after a while, that "user grade" pens cosmetic-wise often have (or can fit) absolutely amazing nib. And to make the matter worse, a lot of times, that nib only works with that "user grade" pen.

(Conversely, a pristine sample of a vintage pen may come with a very boring nib that is too good to swap but uninspiring to write/draw with.)

I used to think that I can fit any nib on any pen. Not so today, hundreds of restorations later.

Plus as a buyer, sometimes I'd rather buy a user-grade pen that writes amazingly, rather than one in pristine condition that is not satisfying to write with.

So now, what do we call a user-grade (cosmetic-wise) pen that has a perfect balance in your hand, and writes amazingly with a nib to die for?

Excellent-but-not-really?
User-grade-but-wait...?

On the point of nib characteristics, I would hope that any condition assessment system would also encourage (if not 'require') a description and picture of the pen's writing characteristics. That aspect of a pen's 'condition' is perhaps the most subjective and most determiniative for many buyers, and a system that made no mention of it would be a failure.

Yet I can't say I see the watch/pen distinction when it comes to a pen's feel (balance, material, threads etc.)--that is why reviews and specifications* exist. A seller shouldn't be responsible, in my opinion for essentially reviewing the 'feel' of a pen's operations--they are a single subjective source with an agenda. Yet if the pen is truly rare and no information exists elsewhere, something would be better than nothing.
*basic specifications might be a good requirement for the system

Deb
March 24th, 2019, 04:40 PM
I provide a writing sample and say if a nib is flexible or not. I might even say if a nib is exceptionally flexible but that's as far as I'll go, because the perception of flexibility varies so much from one person to another. Measured degrees of flexibility? Forget it. All too subjective.

Empty_of_Clouds
March 24th, 2019, 10:26 PM
Thanks, Wil. It was a quiet birthday with nobody around and I ran out of things to do, so I created a post!

calamus
April 17th, 2019, 01:13 PM
The "enforcement" aspect would be the hardest to implement. Even if there were an agreed-upon set of descriptors, some sellers tend to lie, often egregiously. And even if, say, eBay decided to follow those descriptors when evaluating cases, there's always the old "he said, she said" game. The seller can always claim that the buyer cracked the cap/nib/barrel, and that it was in perfectly good condition when shipped.

AzJon
April 17th, 2019, 01:54 PM
This is the grading from David Nishimura's site:

M = mint: perfect, factory new
NM = near mint: may have been used briefly, or may be slightly shopworn
exc = lightly used, minimal wear
fine = used but with care; imprints are strong, brassing (plating wear-through) is minimal
VG = very good: moderate wear, brassing is minor
G = good: wear is significant but even, metal may show light dings or appreciable brassing
F = fair: heavily worn, though fundamentally sound
* = flaws or damage aside from normal wear; specifics will be noted in detail in the description
NOS = new old stock: unused, unsold when new; not a complete description of condition since such items may show shop wear

This is the grading used on Reddit:


[A1] - Mint (Uninked). Shows no signs of use.
[A2] - Same as A1 but may have been dipped or inked.
[N] - New or New old stock, un-inked but may show minor drawer wear.
[B] - Excellent. All parts original and showing only very slight signs of use. Very slight surface scratching; very minor discoloration or brassing; crisp imprints; no significant dings.
[C] - Fine. All parts original. Some discoloration and brassing; light or worn imprints; small dings to metal or scratching on plastic.
[D] - Fair. Some parts possibly not original; significant brassing or discoloration; very worn imprints; dings and scratches. Maybe a good writing pen or usable for parts.
[Parts] - Parts or only good for parts

(supposedly this list is from Richard Binder).

I personally like Dave's breakdown better.

Of course, this is assuming that eBay sellers (or what have you) adhere to the same standard. The number of "rare" pens I see on there is ridiculous.

Ray-VIgo
April 18th, 2019, 01:45 PM
This topic was strongly debated probably some 12 years ago, back when there was even more vintage collectors. Vintage might still have been a heavy presence on the Boards yet then. I think we'd like grading pens to be like coins, easy. Apparently, there is a 6 point grading system for cars - that probably gets closer to it. Still, grading is always subjective. Sellers are always going to have better pens that what the buyer thinks. Could go to a third party to be graded like coins but, I doubt the expense would be as supportable. Many dealers sell using their own grading system which is fairly generic in approach but, generally gets to what they mean. Fair for 1915 will be different for 2015 but, that's understandable as well. Some will say that pens are minted (and they are not) but, we all know what you mean. It became clear then that a generally detailed description of the pen would get the point across without trying to call it "Fine" or "Excellent". There isn't anybody out there going to police this either. If there was a consensus possible on grading I think it would already be in place, as it is not I think you have your answer.

Roger W.

Some good points. Let's take an example: a 1929 jade Balance might involve a little discoloration here and there and maybe some brassing to the clip ball, but mostly good color as to the celluloid. The same level of discoloration in a 1949 Touchdown might be seen as unusually bad because the older jade celluloid is so apt to discolor compared to the 1940s plastic of the Touchdown. Same with shrinking celluloid. I have a black 1920s Flat Top that you can tell has shrunken some, particularly at the cap. But one some level, it's to be expected of 90+ year old celluloid. The same shrinkage in a 1960s Imperial would be seen as unusually bad.

As an aside, I also like Roger's point about the change in the fountain pen market over the years. It seems to me the market for vintage pens was more active 10-15 years ago than it is now. At the last pen show I attended maybe 2-3 years ago in D.C., there were more younger people than usual, but also seemingly more interest in new pens and less in older ones. There was a lot more interest in the vintage pens I fixed and sold some years ago than there is today. Then there are the folks who have departed and were collectors and sources of knowledge. I miss when I used to visit Bert Heiserman at Pen Haven in Maryland once a month to talk old pens. He and Lou Wofsy were good company.

AzJon
April 18th, 2019, 02:34 PM
As an aside, I also like Roger's point about the change in the fountain pen market over the years. It seems to me the market for vintage pens was more active 10-15 years ago than it is now. At the last pen show I attended maybe 2-3 years ago in D.C., there were more younger people than usual, but also seemingly more interest in new pens and less in older ones. There was a lot more interest in the vintage pens I fixed and sold some years ago than there is today. Then there are the folks who have departed and were collectors and sources of knowledge. I miss when I used to visit Bert Heiserman at Pen Haven in Maryland once a month to talk old pens. He and Lou Wofsy were good company.

Possibly, but there are many newcomers to the fountain pen world. Many of us, Penwash in particular, advocate for the appreciation and use of vintage pens. This plays out almost exclusively on Reddit, however. Which, for some, can hardly be uttered except through pursed lips and a bitter taste in the mouth. However, like it or not, if you want to encourage interest in vintage, you have to do it on that platform.

Voiren
April 21st, 2019, 07:23 AM
I had a bit of a giggle today about a pen described as being in "excellent minty condition"!

Mmm, minty fresh.

Bzzer
April 21st, 2019, 10:48 AM
I like the description from Go Pens

Mint, No signs of use
Near Mint, slightest signs of use
Excellent, imprints good, writes well, looks great
Fine +, May have brassing or darkening or some wear
Fine, Used, parts show some wear
Good, Well used wear to imprints, plating wear
Poor (go Pens uses the word Fair, ) Parts pen

In all cases there needs to be a disclosure if the pen does not work as intended by the maker.

I have come a cropper on poor seller descriptions in the past, bought a modern Parker from Pensupply2000 which he described as mint. When it arrived the pen was covered in scratches and had a heavily worn nib, with ink in the pen.

Another pen bought from Vintage Fountain Pens was described as excellent, the pen when it arrived had a completely unusable nib, went back to him, he tried to smooth it but sent it back to me with a note 'best I can do'.

Another Vintage MB from an international seller, pen simply did not function properly, ink dripped off the nib as you wrote. When I asked the seller about the feed, I had the response, 'I thought this 1950s 149 was just for your collection, not a user'.

Another regular pen seller described her pens as New Old Stock, when asked to explain what she meant she gave the answer, the pen was new to my stock!

So I agree, a definitive guide that can be relied upon and measured would be an excellent idea.